Why Do People Talk and Write Like This?

by Blase
285 replies
Hi,

This is not so much a rant as it is a question.

I was just looking around in the WSO's and noticed
a Warrior that is using "WTF" as his user name.

Did I miss the memo?

When did it become OK, to use swear words
in copy, email subject lines, user names, and at the
table next to me in restaurants?

How and why did this become cool?

Unless you are face to face with some one and know
them very well what makes you think that swearing is OK?

I've been in sales and marketing for for 46 years
and I have always lived by, "when in doubt, don't".

That applies to everything you do, write, or say.

You will never know it, but I guarantee you are losing
sales by going into the gutter with your words.

Just something to think about.
#people #tlak #write
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Silvester
    Hi Mate,

    You bring up a really good question. But WTF does WTF mean anyway?

    Sorry, I couldnt help myself.

    Take Care,

    Michael Silvester
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      What The Freaking.......????

      Maybe WTH would be better? I don't know....

      RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author poker princess
      Originally Posted by Michael Silvester View Post

      Hi Mate,

      You bring up a really good question. But WTF does WTF mean anyway?

      Sorry, I couldnt help myself.

      Take Care,

      Michael Silvester

      lol !!!!!!!!
      Seriously this has to be stopped at some point of time....
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    William Thomas Furguson will not be pleased with this. LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      William Thomas Furguson will not be pleased with this. LOL
      Hey Gene, LOL! That must be it.
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    • Profile picture of the author kennethtang
      Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      William Thomas Furguson will not be pleased with this. LOL
      Nor will the World Taekwondo Federation
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    • Profile picture of the author Craig McPherson
      Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      William Thomas Furguson will not be pleased with this. LOL
      Gene,

      Quite possibly the funniest post I have read in ages.
      Thanks for the giggle
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    • Profile picture of the author soniia21
      Made me chuckle
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I'm actually surprised you have to ask.
    We have raised a generation that its ok to be disrespectful and say anything and everything without any consequences.

    A prime place to see this is to read comments at Youtube,a company owned by Google.
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I'm actually surprised you have to ask.
      We have raised a generation that its ok to be disrespectful and say anything and everything without any consequences.
      How sad is that.
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I'm actually surprised you have to ask.
      We have raised a generation that its ok to be disrespectful and say anything and everything without any consequences.
      Not everyone is like that... Your stereotyping here.
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by butters View Post

        Not everyone is like that... Your stereotyping here.
        Valid point!

        MissTerraK
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by butters View Post

          Not everyone is like that... Your stereotyping here.

          No, I'm not.

          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Valid point!

          MissTerraK
          No, its not.
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          • Profile picture of the author butters
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            No, I'm not.
            Please tell me how this: "We have raised a generation that its ok to be disrespectful and say anything and everything without any consequences."
            isn't stereotyping?

            We have raised a "generation" implying everyone... Look I am 19, the generation may be a little younger in what was implyed. We don't disrespect everyone; we aint fail mouthed; we do wear hoodies because they look good; we do understand consequences and we respect the law. Seriously, you hear some bad stuff about some teenagers in the news and all of asudden every teenager is deemed a menace to society.
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            • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
              Originally Posted by butters View Post

              Please tell me how this: "We have raised a generation that its ok to be disrespectful and say anything and everything without any consequences."
              isn't stereotyping?

              We have raised a "generation" implying everyone... Look I am 19, the generation may be a little younger in what was implyed. We don't disrespect everyone; we aint fail mouthed; we do wear hoodies because they look good; we do understand consequences and we respect the law. Seriously, you hear some bad stuff about some teenagers in the news and all of asudden every teenager is deemed a menace to society.

              You see! A kid raised in the 60s, 70s, 80, and not even the 90s... Did not had this opportunity to speak back. INSTANTLY!!!
              Not in week by a letter sent to the publisher (like the old days) that maybe no one would see anyway.
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              • Profile picture of the author butters
                Originally Posted by jennypitts View Post

                You see! A kid raised in the 60s, 70s, 80, and not even the 90s... Did not had this opportunity to speak back. INSTANTLY!!!
                Not in week by a letter sent to the publisher (like the old days) that maybe no one would see anyway.
                I don't get what your saying...
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                • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
                  Originally Posted by butters View Post

                  I don't get what your saying...
                  Well, Maybe people from other generations know what I am talking about. Maybe you don't have the historical facts to understand.

                  Great discussion Warriors!!! I am loving it!
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                  • Profile picture of the author butters
                    Originally Posted by jennypitts View Post

                    Well, Maybe people from other generations know what I am talking about. Maybe you don't have the historical facts to understand.

                    Great discussion Warriors!!! I am loving it!
                    No, you didn't state anything...
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                    • Profile picture of the author warrick
                      Hey Blase, yeah i think you have brought up a topic that a lot of us today take for granted.

                      There are people who do not care yet there are still some people who do about their usage of words. Sometimes a little courtesy goes a long way.
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                    • Profile picture of the author JaniG
                      WTF is not an official swear word though is it

                      why are you getting so offended by 3 LETTERS ?

                      its Like Tony Robins , he swears in his Seminars and the people who get offended are the ones who need to step outside their comfort zone and be more open minded...

                      i think its such a waste of time to make a thread about someone using WTF ( 3 random letters which could mean anything)....

                      thats just my thoughts anyway
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                      • Profile picture of the author SuiteJ
                        Originally Posted by JaniG View Post

                        WTF is not an official swear word though is it

                        why are you getting so offended by 3 LETTERS ?

                        its Like Tony Robins , he swears in his Seminars and the people who get offended are the ones who need to step outside their comfort zone and be more open minded...

                        i think its such a waste of time to make a thread about someone using WTF ( 3 random letters which could mean anything)....

                        thats just my thoughts anyway
                        Exactly. If you're seriously offended by "WTF", then you're taking life WTF (Way Too Freakin') seriously.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Denise Million
                      Even if those are their real initials, there aren't too many of us using our initials that don't even have any meaning so it would seem just nice not to use initials like that (if that really were the case) to show you care.
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                    • Profile picture of the author magentawave
                      Like it said in a hilarious episode of the show Modern Family; WTF means "why the face" -- and whats wrong with that?

                      Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author keyaziz
                      Although I dislike swearing myself I can tolerate it.

                      I also agree with what Stephen Fry said:

                      "The sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or of a lack of verbal interest is just a ****ing loonatic".
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                    • Profile picture of the author WriterWahm
                      Originally Posted by butters View Post

                      No, you didn't state anything...
                      Yes she did. And you are showing your age

                      When was your age, I wouldn't dream of talking back to someone much older than me. It was considered rude and when we wanted to make our opinion known, it was done respectfully.
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            • Profile picture of the author KimW
              Originally Posted by butters View Post

              Please tell me how this: "We have raised a generation that its ok to be disrespectful and say anything and everything without any consequences."
              isn't stereotyping?

              We have raised a "generation" implying everyone... Look I am 19, the generation may be a little younger in what was implyed. We don't disrespect everyone; we aint fail mouthed; we do wear hoodies because they look good; we do understand consequences and we respect the law. Seriously, you hear some bad stuff about some teenagers in the news and all of asudden every teenager is deemed a menace to society.
              Since your only 19 I forgive your ignorance.
              No, I do mean your generation. But that does not imply everyone,but it does imply a majority. And from my experience and the experience of many other adults, that statement as a generalization is quite accurate.

              You don't disrespect everyone, but a good portion of you are very disrespectful

              Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

              A large portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy of finding that out, the other is just everyday observation.

              By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
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              • Profile picture of the author butters
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Since your only 19 I forgive your ignorance.
                No, I do mean your generation. But that does not imply everyone,but it does imply a majority. And from my experience and the experience of many other adults, that statement as a generalization is quite accurate.

                You don't disrespect everyoine, but a good portion of you are very disrespectful

                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

                A latge portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.

                By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
                If you are basing your findings on the news then you are seriously basing your feelings on a minority of teenagers. Am I supposed to look at the news and think, war mongering people who are bad with money and messed up the environment? No I don't, there are just as many bad adults out there as there are to kids.
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                • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
                  Originally Posted by butters View Post

                  If you are basing your findings on the news then you are seriously basing your feelings on a minority of teenagers. Am I supposed to look at the news and think, war mongering people who are bad with money and messed up the environment? No I don't, there are just as many bad adults out there as there are to kids.
                  Great point Kiddo!
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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

                A large portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy of finding that out, the other is just everyday observation.

                By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed <-- perhaps if you're going to correct people's spelling...

                Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy <-- you should make sure you haven't made any spelling mistakes.

                Just a thought...
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                • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
                  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                  Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed <-- perhaps if you're going to correct people's spelling...

                  Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy <-- you should make sure you haven't made any spelling mistakes.

                  Just a thought...
                  LOL!!! That means... Well, Anyway!
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Since your only 19 I forgive your ignorance.
                No, I do mean your generation. But that does not imply everyone,but it does imply a majority. And from my experience and the experience of many other adults, that statement as a generalization is quite accurate.

                You don't disrespect everyone, but a good portion of you are very disrespectful

                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

                A large portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy of finding that out, the other is just everyday observation.

                By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
                Since I respect your opinion, Kim, I forgive your ignorance.

                I think you're a bit older than me, but not ancient like some of the trees here at the forum.

                Sad to say, I think you are way off the mark on this one. I would think someone who grew up in the 1960s or 1970s would "judge someone by the content of their character and not by the year they happened to be born in."

                Also, what do you think the older generation said about kids in the mid- to late-1960s? That they were "all" drug addicted, anti-establishment weirdos who ought to get a haircut. Obviously, that wasn't a fair statement then, for the same reason yours is not a fair statement now.

                Do I think younger folks are more disrespectful? In general, yes I do. However, I don't think it's because they ARE more disrespectful, I think it's my PERCEPTION that makes me think that, and not reality.

                Please, sir, may I suggest that you be more careful in making negative assumptions about an entire generation, and look at people as individuals? I don't think that's too much to ask.

                All the best,
                Michael
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              • Profile picture of the author JaiJay
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Since your only 19 I forgive your ignorance.
                No, I do mean your generation. But that does not imply everyone,but it does imply a majority. And from my experience and the experience of many other adults, that statement as a generalization is quite accurate.

                You don't disrespect everyone, but a good portion of you are very disrespectful

                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

                A large portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy of finding that out, the other is just everyday observation.

                By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
                Understood, but the exact same notion goes for many adults too. I am an adult so am also speaking from experience. Everyone has different views, it's what makes the world go round.
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Since your only 19 I forgive your ignorance.
                No, I do mean your generation. But that does not imply everyone,but it does imply a majority. And from my experience and the experience of many other adults, that statement as a generalization is quite accurate.

                You don't disrespect everyone, but a good portion of you are very disrespectful

                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

                A large portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy of finding that out, the other is just everyday observation.

                By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
                Gimme a break !!
                Why is it that when a person gets older all of the sudden his Generation is just so squeaky clean and the current one has gone down the tube into purgatory ? This has been a continuing theme throughout American history.

                The fact is I am in my 40s and I remember being a part of the Metal Head group way back in the early and mid eighties. We were frowned upon and we smoked drugs and drank hard liquor and committed vandalism on a weekly basis. Shoot, I was in a Private College Prep school in the 80s and there was so much Cocaine addicts in my class it was not even funny. Much much more than there are in the high schools today.

                And from the sounds of it you grew up in the 70s and late 60s. Well my friend there were so many LCD induced sex parties going on in that time ; much more than now. All in the name of Rock and Roll and Free Love ! And who could forget the Crime committed by your generations prime gene pool when they sliced open an Actresses Stomach to retrieve a fetus because a guy named Manson told them to do so.

                My parents grew up in the forties and fifties. Do you think their generation was without vices ? Well, when you do not let a person drink from the same water fountain just based on your skin color and hang someone from a tree for having different color skin....well then I say a resounding NO !!!

                The fact of the matter is this Generation today is no different than ours. There are a few bad apples just like we had, no doubt.

                But to say the Majority are bad is complete and utter NONSENSE !!
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Since your only 19 I forgive your ignorance.
                No, I do mean your generation. But that does not imply everyone,but it does imply a majority. And from my experience and the experience of many other adults, that statement as a generalization is quite accurate.

                You don't disrespect everyone, but a good portion of you are very disrespectful

                Maybe you aren't (its spelled foul) mouthed, but many of you are,and you have no respect for the people around you when you choose to be.

                A large portion of you have zero respect for the law.Just read the news everyday.Thats one wahy of finding that out, the other is just everyday observation.

                By the way, I have rasied 5 children, all of then are older than you, but close to your age.
                Am I the only one who sees the irony here?

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                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                  Am I the only one who sees the irony here?

                  I didn't notice it until you pointed it out. I did notice a little irony about stereotyping. Did you catch that one, Michael? :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author matthewd
            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            No, I'm not.
            Yes, you are.

            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

            No, its not.
            Yes, it is.
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            • Profile picture of the author KimW
              Originally Posted by matthewd View Post

              Yes, you are.



              Yes, it is.
              If you interpet it that way you need a good dictionary by your side as you read. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        How do you know they mean to curse?

        It could be...

        What? It's Friday!?

        What The Frak?

        What The Fudge?

        What's That, Fudge?

        Where's The Fudge?

        Who's The Fool?

        Where's The Fridge?

        What's That, Friend?

        Want The Fudge?

        Who's That Freak?

        When's The Frenzy?

        What The Find!

        Where's The Frill?

        Why The Fluff?

        Watch This Fist!

        Watch This, Friend.

        Watch The Food!

        Where's The Food?

        Where's The Flood?
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by butters View Post

        Not everyone is like that... Your stereotyping here.
        He didn't say everyone was, and he's not stereotyping anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    The only car sales person to be inducted into the Automotive Hall Of Fame Joe Girard as the "World's Greatest Salesperson" has 13 rules to success and number 4 is:

    4.No smoking or chewing tobacco, no gum, no colognes, no profanity, no dirty jokes, no alcohol breath, and men do not wear earrings when you are working. Turn off cell phones - they're irritating. The biggest killer of them all is NOT BEING ON TIME.

    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    I know what you mean. There are some that actually design a personality around it and it works for them. Often I wonder if they lose sales.

    See this thread:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-products.html
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      They THINK it works for them - but I wonder how many have actually tested it.

      They THINK is it is an attention getter - but what kind of attention? Sometimes it may attract a certain target market but may lose a potentially larger market.

      My reaction to the use of profanity in marketing copy is to assume the person has a weak grasp of the language and a limited vocabulary. Online (with the exception of RJ whose copy I never liked anyway) the use seems to have originated with very young marketers - but as in the offline world it then becomes common and spreads to others.

      I'm not referring to the occasional profanity used in otherwise informative content or email - but some of these people make the profanity their "look at me" hook. It's funny that even with the wide use of the same few curse words - people still think they are being unique in saying those few words.

      Using WTF as a user name tells me that's not someone serious about being on an IM forum or doing much of anything. But recently I've seen quite a few user names that made me feel that way about the user - and they weren't even "bad words", just ridiculous.

      kay
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      I wish offended people would react like fainting goats and quietly tip over.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Maybe I'm dating myself yet again, but does anyone else remember Lenny Bruce, the comic? He was the first to become famous for 'working blue', using profanity and other naughty words in his stand-up act.

        Among today's up-and-comers, Lenny would be lost in the crowd. Somehow the idea that using four letter words, both what I grew up with as "cussing" and labels for genitalia, makes them "edgy" got a toehold.

        Yet if you look at the top sellers in the market, you'll notice that, for the most part, they work pretty clean. A little racy sometimes, but they don't usually use words you'd be embarrassed to explain to your kids or your grandmother.

        Do I sometimes let a curse word in? Yes, but it's usually pretty mild. Usually, if I do, it's in a medium like this where what i type is pretty much what I'd say of we were face to face.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          I personally cringe when I read those and refuse to click on the title to read more!

          So what if I'm showing my age...I am a grama after all!

          MissTerraK
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      • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        They THINK it works for them - but I wonder how many have actually tested it.

        They THINK is it is an attention getter - but what kind of attention? Sometimes it may attract a certain target market but may lose a potentially larger market.

        My reaction to the use of profanity in marketing copy is to assume the person has a weak grasp of the language and a limited vocabulary. Online (with the exception of RJ whose copy I never liked anyway) the use seems to have originated with very young marketers - but as in the offline world it then becomes common and spreads to others.

        I'm not referring to the occasional profanity used in otherwise informative content or email - but some of these people make the profanity their "look at me" hook. It's funny that even with the wide use of the same few curse words - people still think they are being unique in saying those few words.

        Using WTF as a user name tells me that's not someone serious about being on an IM forum or doing much of anything. But recently I've seen quite a few user names that made me feel that way about the user - and they weren't even "bad words", just ridiculous.

        kay
        Well in some cases it does work for people Kay however the limitation of vocabulary I agree with. When you have a generation that speaks in it's own language wtf yo etc they are all normal and sad to say but true nonethless these are the people being targeted and they think it is cool.
        -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author JaiJay
    I completely agree. There are always people that I overhear in conversations who use a swear word as every other word. I just think to myself that they must not be a very interesting person if they have to buff up their sentences with words such as this.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    John,
    I certainly remember Lenny. And you're right, he would be lost among todays comics.
    Working clean and working blue is a matter of opinion I would say.
    I was watchig the Bio channel the other night and they did Kevin James ( King Of Queens). Several times they mentioned that all through his career he stood by the belief he wouldnt do anything he wouldnt do in front of his grandmother or chlidren.

    While I think he can be very funny at times, I have seen him do lots of bits that I personally wouldn't think were appropriate for either grandma or kids.

    My point is that even working clean nowadays has a different meaning thatn when we grew up.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Powers
    "when in doubt, don't",well,really nice tips.Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Houcem Rihane
    Yeah, it's definitely "Where's The Food"

    But seriously, you don't use such a language with a person you meet for the first time... especially if you don't belong to the same age category... unless you suffer from the tourette syndrome (which doesn't count in this case).

    That's at least how my parents raised me, I don't know if it works differently somewhere else.

    Between buddies its another story, but you can't consider everybody on the forum really a BUDDY.
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  • Profile picture of the author kbrockm
    I was ad a real brick-and-mortar job once where a co-worker was writing documentation for some new software the team had produced. In it he put the term "RTFM" (which refers to reading the manual, for those who may not know!). He was fired immediately upon his boss reading it.
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulaC
      Originally Posted by kbrockm View Post

      I was ad a real brick-and-mortar job once where a co-worker was writing documentation for some new software the team had produced. In it he put the term "RTFM" (which refers to reading the manual, for those who may not know!). He was fired immediately upon his boss reading it.
      That reminds me of a co-worker in my old 9 to 5 job who would use the term F/U. For him it meant "follow-up". But for others it meant something entirely different.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    A proofreading client I used to do work for would swear like crazy in his writing. This caused a bit of a dilemma as a proofreader because I didn't want to change his tone too much. My solution was to downgrade each questionable word by a notch or two.

    For example, if he used the F-word, I would change it to 'freaking'; if it was the S-word, I would change it to cr@p; if he wrote BS, I would change it to 'nonsense'; and so on. Even after doing that, I felt like it was totaly unprofessional, but figured it was the best solution.

    As far as people cussing frequently when talking to others, I'm a firm believer that it's nothing more than being lazy.

    I'm not saying whether or not it's right or wrong, but I, personally, don't care to hear or see it. For example, Kelsey Grammer had a new show that debuted a few months ago. It was clearly aimed at the family market. It was a sort of revers Beverly Hillbillies, and I thought it had a lot of promise. Well, in the first five minutes of the pilot episode words like h**l, d*m*, and b*st*rd were used quite frequently. In my opinion it would have been MUCH funnier if they found creative ways to express those ideas. I mean, who can't think of something funnier to call someone than b*st*rd?

    Not that I expected the same show, but on Frasier, Mr. Grammer had decent writiers. And the cussing was incredibly rare. However, the same ideas were conveyed in a much funnier way.

    I'm sure there will be a few that come in and defend the use of swearing, but as was mentioned, how do they know that NOT swearing would improve their results even more? Or, the argument of "that's just who I am" will be put forth. Well, I can't argue with that; just know that there are those who aren't big fans of the overuse of lazy speech. So much so that it could have a negative impact on your bottom line.

    Do I ever swear? Rarely. But, when I do, it is almost always with forethought, and for a very clear reason. In effect, making it the opposite of lazy speech.

    I'm no angel, but the proliferation of profanity is problematic.

    All the best,
    Michael "Yes, I'm the type of guy who yells 'fiddlesticks!' if he hits his thumb with a hammer" Oksa
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    • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      A proofreading client I used to do work for would swear like crazy in his writing. This caused a bit of a dilemma as a proofreader because I didn't want to change his tone too much. My solution was to downgrade each questionable word by a notch or two.

      For example, if he used the F-word, I would change it to 'freaking'; if it was the S-word, I would change it to cr@p; if he wrote BS, I would change it to 'nonsense'; and so on. Even after doing that, I felt like it was totaly unprofessional, but figured it was the best solution.

      As far as people cussing frequently when talking to others, I'm a firm believer that it's nothing more than being lazy.

      I'm not saying whether or not it's right or wrong, but I, personally, don't care to hear or see it. For example, Kelsey Grammer had a new show that debuted a few months ago. It was clearly aimed at the family market. It was a sort of revers Beverly Hillbillies, and I thought it had a lot of promise. Well, in the first five minutes of the pilot episode words like h**l, d*m*, and b*st*rd were used quite frequently. In my opinion it would have been MUCH funnier if they found creative ways to express those ideas. I mean, who can't think of something funnier to call someone than b*st*rd?

      Not that I expected the same show, but on Frasier, Mr. Grammer had decent writiers. And the cussing was incredibly rare. However, the same ideas were conveyed in a much funnier way.

      I'm sure there will be a few that come in and defend the use of swearing, but as was mentioned, how do they know that NOT swearing would improve their results even more? Or, the argument of "that's just who I am" will be put forth. Well, I can't argue with that; just know that there are those who aren't big fans of the overuse of lazy speech. So much so that it could have a negative impact on your bottom line.

      Do I ever swear? Rarely. But, when I do, it is almost always with forethought, and for a very clear reason. In effect, making it the opposite of lazy speech.

      I'm no angel, but the proliferation of profanity is problematic.

      All the best,
      Michael "Yes, I'm the type of guy who yells 'fiddlesticks!' if he hits his thumb with a hammer" Oksa
      There's a place for swearing imo, like a face to face no nonsense approach, depending on the audience and substituting the worst swear words with lesser ones work just as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      A proofreading client I used to do work for would swear like crazy in his writing. This caused a bit of a dilemma as a proofreader because I didn't want to change his tone too much. My solution was to downgrade each questionable word by a notch or two.

      For example, if he used the F-word, I would change it to 'freaking'; if it was the S-word, I would change it to cr@p; if he wrote BS, I would change it to 'nonsense'; and so on. Even after doing that, I felt like it was totaly unprofessional, but figured it was the best solution.

      As far as people cussing frequently when talking to others, I'm a firm believer that it's nothing more than being lazy.

      I'm not saying whether or not it's right or wrong, but I, personally, don't care to hear or see it. For example, Kelsey Grammer had a new show that debuted a few months ago. It was clearly aimed at the family market. It was a sort of revers Beverly Hillbillies, and I thought it had a lot of promise. Well, in the first five minutes of the pilot episode words like h**l, d*m*, and b*st*rd were used quite frequently. In my opinion it would have been MUCH funnier if they found creative ways to express those ideas. I mean, who can't think of something funnier to call someone than b*st*rd?

      Not that I expected the same show, but on Frasier, Mr. Grammer had decent writiers. And the cussing was incredibly rare. However, the same ideas were conveyed in a much funnier way.

      I'm sure there will be a few that come in and defend the use of swearing, but as was mentioned, how do they know that NOT swearing would improve their results even more? Or, the argument of "that's just who I am" will be put forth. Well, I can't argue with that; just know that there are those who aren't big fans of the overuse of lazy speech. So much so that it could have a negative impact on your bottom line.

      Do I ever swear? Rarely. But, when I do, it is almost always with forethought, and for a very clear reason. In effect, making it the opposite of lazy speech.

      I'm no angel, but the proliferation of profanity is problematic.

      All the best,
      Michael "Yes, I'm the type of guy who yells 'fiddlesticks!' if he hits his thumb with a hammer" Oksa
      This is a pretty conservative post for someone who's sig file invites us to "grab his package" for Valentine's day-sheesh (oops-I hope that wasn't perceived as a dadburned cussin word, consarn it).
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      • Profile picture of the author Glenn Newsome
        The late Gary Halbert.
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
          Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

          Colin - I actually don't understand the point of your response. Professor Neil Postman has written several good books on the deleterious effects of TV, such as "Amusing Ourselves To Death. Another research based book is "The Plug In Drug" by Marie Winn. So while I agree as self evident that "the degradation of the language is symptomatic of the general decline of civilization" I vehemently disagree that TV has nothing to do with that. Neil would attribute most if not all such cultural decline to the media.
          This decline happens whether there's TV or not. Cultural decline is something that happens eventually to all empires.

          Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

          If your analogy of culture being simply a photocopy of a photocopy is to say that culture is inexorably subject to some entropic principle I would say nonsense. The Renaissance and The Enlightenment grew out of and flourished from terrible archetypes. In other words culture once progressed instead of regressed as this generation has done.
          The Renaissance and the Enlightenment grew out of the ruins of a collapsed culture, much like I'm sure some new enlightened so and so's will rise out of the ruins of modern day Western civilization as well. Culture itself isn't entropic necessarily. We just live in a society that has a value system that's at odds with long-term success. Tie that to a media that's run by a generation that's never lived without said media, a culture who no longer understands its purpose, who no longer has the discipline to control it... ticking clock.

          Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

          Another good commentary on this society is Poet Laureate Robert Bly's "The Sibling Society" The Bly from "Iron John" not the Direct Marketer.
          Thank you, I'll keep an eye out.

          Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

          People of the media who make such vacuous statements as "its the people not the media" or "there is no bad media" use the same arguementation as pornographers and violence purveyors. While saying these things have no effect they charge billions for advertising and spend careers studying copy-writing, NLP, and other manipulation techniques.
          I didn't say it had no effect. I said it wasn't the media that's at fault. There's this trash pile near a resort in Africa where the baboons fight to the death over shards of mirror. I think this media/culture decline is due to an ouroboros-like feedback loop. There's no fixing it. We over-venerate youth, and cater to that "demographic" so much that they think they are equipped to run the world. They are so cynical and think they're above the influence of the tools they wield. Unchecked tastes lead to crass content. Crass content creates yet more unchecked tastes.

          Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

          Wow are we far a field. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program...curse away.
          We are, and we agree almost completely. You're saying it's some invention and kids these days that are bringing us down. I say it's something inherent in human culture. Only about 15% of the population are born mentally more man than monkey. The problem is that in ancient times, that 15% took the 85% of dummies out of the natural selection engine. Not enough of them died and not enough of the smart ones reproduced.

          So here we are, a population of mostly-monkeys led by a few who are slightly smarter and more self-aware.

          But it's not like I'm not hopeful. I think there were lots of folks who thrived during the fall of Rome. You live when you live and you use what you find there. It won't ever be like it was ever again. But you can prepare for how it's going to be.

          (Don't worry, there's no real point to this post either. )
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          • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
            Seriously...

            WTF is the big deal?

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            • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
              Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

              Seriously...

              WTF is the big deal?

              Did you see the part of the page where it said "discussion forum"? This kind of thing happens here all the time. I mean, OMGBBQ.
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              • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                Did you see the part of the page where it said "discussion forum"? This kind of thing happens here all the time. I mean, OMGBBQ.
                LOL - WTFWTBBQ
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        • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
          Originally Posted by Glenn Newsome View Post

          The late Gary Halbert.
          He called people ****weazels all the time, but... his serious copy for other clients didn't have a lick of profanity. You gotta know your audience. He very well did.

          I might add that other words can turn off potential buyers too. Some would be offended by "Thank the Lord" or " You will be Blessed " or "Praise the Lord" in copy. Again, knowing your audience is the key.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


      All the best,
      Michael "Yes, I'm the type of guy who yells 'fiddlesticks!' if he hits his thumb with a hammer" Oksa
      My wife is a big proponent of 'fiddlesticks'. Recently she's been using 'bananas' as well.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        My wife is a big proponent of 'fiddlesticks'. Recently she's been using 'bananas' as well.

        As I recall, I used to love fiddlesticks. Do they even make them anymore?
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        • Profile picture of the author dubhdara
          For what it's worth, any sales letter or web content I read online that resorts to innuendo, bad language, and/or profanity, will not get my respect and, consequently, very likely not my money either...
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    Different generations, different takes on things.
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      Different generations, different takes on things.
      jazbo,

      I am not picking on you I really want to know.

      So as far as your concerned it's OK?
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    How do you know those letters aren't the initials of their name?

    Reminds me of an All in the Family episode, where they are fighting over the babies name.

    Archie: Why not name him Archibald Stanislouse Sivic?

    Gloria: Oh, you don't want those initials.

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  • Profile picture of the author Laura B
    Profanity in marketing, as in life in general, totally turns me off as well. It makes the person look the opposite of how they think it makes them look. I guess they figure because their equally vocabulary-challenged buddies think it's cool, it must be.

    Maybe Larry Platt should add to his song:

    Pants on the ground! F-bombs all around! Soundin' like a fool wit' the air all blue! Call yourself a cool cat, soundin' like a fool, cursin' 'round town with your pants on the ground!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Ferraro
    Well... I think context has a lot to do with. Certain people cursing will be a lot more offensive than other people cursing. It's all in what you are saying. My favorite all-time comedian is George Carlin. We all know the "seven dirty words" and he's absolutely right. It's kind of hypocritical that we use different euphemisms for these so called "dirty" words but we can't say them out loud.

    That being said, there are some people who will curse a mile a minute, and it will make me want to roll my eyes. There are others who can curse and it sounds like poetry.

    Btw...I don't curse on any my sites, because well....I am running a business. I also wouldn't curse at a customer if I was working at Wal-Mart. Same thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author discrat
    Originally Posted by Blase View Post

    Hi,

    This is not so much a rant as it is a question.

    I was just looking around in the WSO's and noticed
    a Warrior that is using "WTF" as his user name.

    Did I miss the memo?

    When did it become OK, to use swear words
    in copy, email subject lines, user names, and at the
    table next to me in restaurants?

    How and why did this become cool?

    Unless you are face to face with some one and know
    them very well what makes you think that swearing is OK?

    I've been in sales and marketing for for 46 years
    and I have always lived by, "when in doubt, don't".

    That applies to everything you do, write, or say.

    You will never know it, but I guarantee you are losing
    sales by going into the gutter with your words.

    Just something to think about.
    Interesting your view. But here is something you might consider.
    One of my best friends growing up was actually named John Doe. And it pissed the hell out of him when missing people or unknown people were referred to by 'his name'.

    Word of advice : Dont judge until you know the full story. WTF is the initials of my wife's cousin and it is actually common initials for many, many folks in the US !!!
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by discrat View Post

      Interesting your view. But here is something you might consider.
      One of my best friends growing up was actually named John Doe. And it pissed the hell out of him when missing people or unknown people were referred to by 'his name'.

      Word of advice : Dont judge until you know the full story. WTF is the initials of my wife's cousin and it is actually common initials for many, many folks in the US !!!
      Common for initials or not wtf is known throughout as what the#### sorry that makes no sense in reference to this context. just like ftw doesn't mean franklin tibadeu warner it means #### the world. online or offline
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason_V
        Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

        Common for initials or not wtf is known throughout as what the#### sorry that makes no sense in reference to this context. just like ftw doesn't mean franklin tibadeu warner it means #### the world. online or offline
        Actually, today, most of the time when someone says ftw, they mean for the win. Meaning whatever was mentioned rules. Example:

        Warrior Forum ftw!

        There's a perfect example of how you can think an acronym means something bad, when in fact, it can mean something entirely different. Unless it's used in context as mentioned above.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

        Common for initials or not wtf is known throughout as what the#### sorry that makes no sense in reference to this context. just like ftw doesn't mean franklin tibadeu warner it means #### the world. online or offline

        Well regardless of what you you might think it doesnt matter if those initials are known common around the World. I know my parents and many people over 50 do not know what 'wtf ' means in street talk. I would dare say hundreds of millions of people Worldwide DO NOT know what it means. THATS JUST FACT !!

        And YES it does make sense and it is NOT out of context if that person's actual initials are indeed WTF !! You can talk blue in the face and turn somersaults in the air if thats your thing But you and I realize that there is a distinct possibility that the person's name has the initial WTF !!

        Like i said DO NOT blind yourself with ASSUMPTIONS !!
        Thats extremely dangerous and will not serve yourself well in the future .
        End of story !!


        P.S. I am so honest when I say this but what does 'ftw' mean ?? I am dead serious I never heard of it !
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          I think there is a difference between using actual curse words and letters. That is, there is a difference between using "What the ****?" in your content and "WTF?" I've heard plenty of people use the word "snafu" who are of the type not to use the f-word. Likewise with people who use "B.S." instead of saying "Bull****".
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

            I think there is a difference between using actual curse words and letters. That is, there is a difference between using "What the ****?" in your content and "WTF?" I've heard plenty of people use the word "snafu" who are of the type not to use the f-word. Likewise with people who use "B.S." instead of saying "Bull****".
            Good point, Dan. As far as I can recall, I have not heard anybody say "WTF" out loud. Perhaps I'm not "hip" and "with it" as I'd like to be. Dig? But it may also be that WTF hasn't been around long enough to enter the vernacular. Whereas, snafu (note it's not even all caps anymore), SOB, and BS can stand on their own as a step down from what they fully represent.

            But, as we are talking about using WTF online, I would argue that when most peoplr see that, their mind reads it as three words, not three letters. I would also be willing to bet that the person writing it means it to stand for the words it represents, and not three letters, a la SOB.

            Interesting discussion, but it always is when this topic comes up.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by JaiJay View Post

              Not being a pro in this area I am struggling to think of a scenario where using profanity would actually forward you in your market?
              I can think of one - products like rap albums and video games targeted at a young "urban" crowd, and the suburban white kids who like to pretend they're bad while driving their Mom's Toyota to the mall.

              In fact, any product engineered to need a "parental discretion" warning...

              @Michael - I would guess that a lot of people don't even realize that 'snafu' started as an acronym, just like omg, lol or... wtf.

              [For the curious but lazy, SNAFU stands for "Situation Normal, All F***ed Up"]
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                I can think of one - products like rap albums and video games targeted at a young "urban" crowd, and the suburban white kids who like to pretend they're bad while driving their Mom's Toyota to the mall.

                In fact, any product engineered to need a "parental discretion" warning...

                @Michael - I would guess that a lot of people don't even realize that 'snafu' started as an acronym, just like omg, lol or... wtf.

                [For the curious but lazy, SNAFU stands for "Situation Normal, All F***ed Up"]
                SOME dictionaries say it means "Situation Normal, All FOULED Up!"

                Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              Good point, Dan. As far as I can recall, I have not heard anybody say "WTF" out loud. Perhaps I'm not "hip" and "with it" as I'd like to be. Dig? But it may also be that WTF hasn't been around long enough to enter the vernacular. Whereas, snafu (note it's not even all caps anymore), SOB, and BS can stand on their own as a step down from what they fully represent.
              On the flip side, we can also choose what we hear in our minds. I hear "What the Frak?" ;-)

              I don't know that I'd use either in my marketing, but in marketing I receive, I wouldn't be offended by "WTF" whereas I might be off-put if they spelled out exactly what they meant.

              Assuming, of course, they didn't mean "Frak". (Or food, flood, famine, feast, flowchart, etc.)

              Hmmm... That's one I missed earlier. WHAT THE FLOWCHART is that!? I think that's what I'll choose to hear in my head from now on.
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              • Profile picture of the author butters
                Think about it, a good play on words of WTF, FTW etc... could make good email headers, something to think about . Specially if your audience is a younger generation.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                On the flip side, we can also choose what we hear in our minds. I hear "What the Frak?" ;-)

                I don't know that I'd use either in my marketing, but in marketing I receive, I wouldn't be offended by "WTF" whereas I might be off-put if they spelled out exactly what they meant.

                Assuming, of course, they didn't mean "Frak". (Or food, flood, famine, feast, flowchart, etc.)

                Hmmm... That's one I missed earlier. WHAT THE FLOWCHART is that!? I think that's what I'll choose to hear in my head from now on.
                I appreciate that you are giving the masses so much credit.

                It's funny that you bring that up, because I DO hear it as "what the fudge?" and I have been known to type "WTH", but I mean "what the heck?" when I do.

                But let's be honest, most people who write WTF mean it to stand for cursing.

                Your point about not being offended by WTF, is a good one. Heck, I don't seem to have any problem typing it. But I would use lots of different symbols if I had to spell it out.

                ~Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Blase
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          ...many people over 50 do not know what 'wtf ' means in street talk. I would dare say hundreds of millions of people Worldwide DO NOT know what it means. THATS JUST FACT !!
          LOL! I am 57 and I started this thread and I know very
          well what it means. I just asked my wife and she knew
          what it meant.

          I knew what FTW meant also.
          I know what RTFM meant also.

          But I still don't like it.
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by Blase View Post

            LOL! I am 57 and I started this thread and I know very
            well what it means. I just asked my wife and she knew
            what it meant.

            I knew what FTW meant also.
            I know what RTFM meant also.

            But I still don't like it.

            Yeah I am 42 and I still dont know what FTW and RTFM mean !!
            I think this alone proves my point and why you cant make assumptions that everyone knows something just because you and your wife know it !!
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          • Profile picture of the author zcx
            Originally Posted by Blase View Post

            LOL! I am 57 and I started this thread and I know very
            well what it means. I just asked my wife and she knew
            what it meant.

            I knew what FTW meant also.
            I know what RTFM meant also.

            But I still don't like it.
            Interesting - I'm older than you (I'm a certifiable senior citizen, verging on little old lady) and I really don't have any problem at all with things like WTF or RTFM. In fact I've been known to drop the occasional f-bomb myself. :-) I've seen/heard/read many things in which (in my opinion at least) the occasional well-placed obscenity really made it funnier/got the point across perfectly/etc.

            Like anything else, obscenity become tedious and pointless when it's overused, but as far as I'm concerned it's just part of the language and can sometimes be used to great advantage. I wouldn't use that kind of language in my own sales copy because it wouldn't appeal to my market (other little old ladies), but if I were selling stuff to the college-age market I might.

            It seems that for some it's a moral issue, but to me it seems to be just a matter of personal taste.
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            • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
              Originally Posted by zcx View Post

              Interesting - I'm older than you (I'm a certifiable senior citizen, verging on little old lady) and I really don't have any problem at all with things like WTF or RTFM. In fact I've been known to drop the occasional f-bomb myself. :-) I've seen/heard/read many things in which (in my opinion at least) the occasional well-placed obscenity really made it funnier/got the point across perfectly/etc.

              Like anything else, obscenity become tedious and pointless when it's overused, but as far as I'm concerned it's just part of the language and can sometimes be used to great advantage. I wouldn't use that kind of language in my own sales copy because it wouldn't appeal to my market (other little old ladies), but if I were selling stuff to the college-age market I might.

              It seems that for some it's a moral issue, but to me it seems to be just a matter of personal taste.
              Now that's one of the most rational posts I've seen in this thread! Most people can't wrap their heads around the absurdity of branding certain words as being "bad", "curse", "foul", "dirty", or "filthy", which leads to all sorts of silliness, a lot of self-righteous indignation, and ridiculous moral judgments, or goofy stereotypes (only people who lack education, or intelligence, etc, use foul language). It also makes the offending words more fun for the rest of us.

              Like you said, you have to tailor your speech to your audience, but the truly enlightened person in this global, multicultural world is slow to take offense and seeks to understand the intent behind the words before typecasting, dismissing, or being offended by the speaker. As I think I mentioned earlier, Richard Pryor practically had me in tears with some of his hilarious "foul-mouthed" observations.

              George Carlin was an incredibly smart, creative wordsmith, fascinated by language, a master of it's use, and used profanity as a color on his artist's palette. One of his classic routines "the seven words you can't say on television", not only used all seven, but brilliantly pointed out the absurdity and futility of taking offense at certain words, and most insanely of all, trying to prevent their use.

              The more upset some of you posting here become about "foul words", the more interesting, charged, fun, and attractive the words you hate become to others-it's always been that way, and I see no reason to think it will change-people are attracted to whatever has energy, and people getting hot and bothered about certain words gives them lots of energy. If you really want to fight "foul language", you can do no better than to ignore it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
                Hey Michael,

                Nice post-now I'm really getting your drift. I can see your sincerity in not wanting to restrict people's rights, and I now see what you mean by the "middle ground"-in that sense, we probably share a good deal of common ground. Your position is a whole lot clearer to me now. You actually remind me of my brother (a good thing-unpretentious, honest, and thoughtful-willing to consider other views).

                Where I think we differ is that while I understand you're against censorship, you see it as a fact of life, and don't think it's wise to fight it. You see a possibility of mitigating the injustice by working with the system, even though you see a paradox, since you'd rather get rid of it, but don't think that's a realistic option.

                I on the other hand, am just dead set against ever accepting that or anything else oppressive, like war, and homelessness as being inevitable or "here to stay". I know that may be unrealistic-most people would probably call me a hopeless dreamer. Even if that's true though, I find it empowering to assume the best is possible, and since we can't really know the future, why not think like Gandhi and try for what everyone thinks is "impossible"? I've been part of many political actions in my time, have been dragged off to jail for many of them (probably 10-15 or so), have seen amazing changes in my lifetime that nobody could have predicted-some of them catastrophic, some very positive, so who knows. A man who used to torture all of Central America in the 70s is now building homes for the poor (Jimmy Carter), so anything is possible!

                In spite of my hopes, you probably are right that censors will be around for a while, and from that perspective I understand you wanting to "reform" what they do, even though you don't agree with it. But I think that's a mistake, for reasons I needn't repeat. Actually, they are going to be having less and less impact I think, due to the internet and new entertainment and information delivery systems-there's just too much to control.

                I understand on a personal level not wanting to hear a bunch of sh*t being spewed by low-life characters (like me). ;P I really think the spirit behind the words is what counts the most. For me, for example, Richard Pryor's warmth, vulnerability and humanity always shined through, even when he was "waxing filthy" as it were.

                I hate hearing people curse each other out in anger, not really because of the words, but the hurtful intent. I guess part of my reaction to this thread is it makes me want to shake everyone and tell them, come on people-life is too short to let yourself get upset over someone's choice of words. Don't sweat it-and you might even find something to enjoy about what used to be upsetting if you just relax your mind a bit.

                If I'm hanging out in a bar with buddies, I quite enjoy the occasional good natured profanity, although I am pretty sensitive to those around me, so I tone it down if I sense anyone feeling discomfort.

                I agree that people swear too much overall, often due to laziness, like so much of what we say and do. Come to think of it, most of us are pretty boring most of the time. I have to make a real effort to come up with something interesting to say, especially to people who have heard me speak for hours, until they just want to slap me The real problem for me isn't so much the swearing, although it gets old, but the being boring, stuck in a rut, predictable, and repeating too many of the same old cliches-we all have our favorite little phrases, and for most of us, it takes a real effort to get out of our ruts.

                Thanks for saying you'd enjoy hanging out with me-I agree, we'd probably have a blast. Also thanks for the laugh-the thought of big bird launching a bunch of "F-bombs" (I love that term), is freakin hilarious!!!!!

                Cheers, Greg
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by discrat View Post

      Word of advice : Dont judge until you know the full story. WTF is the initials of my wife's cousin and it is actually common initials for many, many folks in the US !!!
      Just to be clear, I understand WTF could be his initials, and
      even it they are he knows what that means and I would bet
      he is trying to be clever.

      Seeing that is what got the whole subject going.

      And unless you are not on any email lists you are getting emails
      with subject lines that start with WTF!

      Now either a lot of people have those initials for
      a name or it means what I think it means in those emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    WD, I must be getting old. I'd never heard FTW used before.

    I've always felt that in most cases, swearing is intellectual laziness. There are almost always better ways to express yourself that are more effective. Do I swear? Very rarely, but when I do it's intentional, with forethought, and intently paid attention to because my friends and family are shocked to hear me curse.
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    • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      WD, I must be getting old. I'd never heard FTW used before.

      .
      FTW has 2 meanings that i know of, one we won't repeat here the other is very positive

      For The Win

      so i guess it also need to be in context
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

        FTW has 2 meanings that i know of, one we won't repeat here the other is very positive

        For The Win

        so i guess it also need to be in context
        Never heard of that before this thread either. Sigh -- you just had to quote the part where I said I must be getting old, didn't you?
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Taylor
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Never heard of that before this thread either. Sigh -- you just had to quote the part where I said I must be getting old, didn't you?
          I saw an old episode of Family Feud with Richard Dawson. In the '70s he clearly said "For The Win" in the show I saw. So, the acronym may be new, but FTW has been around for a while.

          It's used quite frequently in world of warcraft. As is its opposite, FTL...For The Lose. Usually referring to something that's really really bad or undesirable.

          I've never seen it used for "F" The World.
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      WD, I must be getting old. I'd never heard FTW used before.

      I've always felt that in most cases, swearing is intellectual laziness. There are almost always better ways to express yourself that are more effective. Do I swear? Very rarely, but when I do it's intentional, with forethought, and intently paid attention to because my friends and family are shocked to hear me curse.

      Hi D,

      My dad was part of a gang in the 60's called the FTW's LOL now days people use wtf which is ftw reversed LOL anyway for the win or not in canada ftw is understood as one meaning wtf is understood as you know wtf ****Edit and come to think of it I have seen all sorts of yankees with tattoos across their fingers saying ftw F### the world so I don't think it is a canadian thing in after thought.

      Swearing happens but using it as part of your everyday lingo just is pure laziness and lack of the right expressive content
      -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author appsrus
    Originally Posted by Blase View Post

    You will never know it, but I guarantee you are losing
    sales by going into the gutter with your words.
    I'd have to agree with this, at least where the large majority of my copywriting is concerned.

    Putting profanity on a sales page is typically a bad idea.

    That being said, it can also help you, depending on what you're trying to sell, and more importantly your target demographic.

    I HAVE had great success with CPA landing pages that feature less than squeaky-clean language, but then again the particular campaign wasn't targeted at grandmas and grandpas.

    The bottom line though is that society in general just keeps getting dirtier and more liberal (not in the political sense). Someone above mentioned Frasier. While that show is absolutely terrible, (:p) it did make me think of the blatant effect that can be seen by observing the shift in the language used in TV shows over the past 10-20 years. I remember when it was forbidden to say "b@stard" on television AT ALL, let alone words like "bi@tch", etc.. you get the idea.

    The bottom line is that I fully expect F bombs to be dropping on network television within my lifetime and will only be momentarily shocked when I finally do see it happen.

    It's just the way things are going, there's nothing that can be done about. Aside from pray for Jesus to return :p
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    • Profile picture of the author JaiJay
      Originally Posted by appsrus View Post


      That being said, it can also help you, depending on what you're trying to sell, and more importantly your target demographic.
      Not being a pro in this area I am struggling to think of a scenario where using profanity would actually forward you in your market?
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  • Profile picture of the author thedogtreatjar
    This is a super interesting topic to me because I recently had a client who wanted me to re-write his copy "in his voice" for a XBox product.

    "His voice" = terrible profanity. I was super nervous but did as I was told. He was thrilled but the conversion was the same. I suggested a cleaner copy without the potty mouth and wrote something up for him. His conversion went up 2 percent in a week.

    ...and that's an xBox product that moms are not likely to purchase
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  • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
    Well, We can not really judge by generation differences. The generation raised up... Let's say; in the 60s... Used a lot of drugs including hallucinating drugs and heroin. And were very rebellious... The 70-80 lots of coke and sex, the 90 crack and now other issues... I was looking at a study that says that this generation or current time in US is historically conservative. So, who can we believe?

    I am not in favor of using profanity... But I also am not in favor of having selective amnesia.

    WTF is not really a curse word... And it can be subject to interpretation.
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    • Profile picture of the author A Bary
      Anyone Remember the sad days of what so called the R.J?

      This stupid silly attitude of marketing made some people hink it's cool to be offensive and disrespectful.

      As long as people don't use their mind and logic, we will keep seeing this
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    • Profile picture of the author JaiJay
      Originally Posted by jennypitts View Post

      Well, We can not really judge by generation differences. The generation raised up... Let's say; in the 60s... Used a lot of drugs including hallucinating drugs and heroin. And were very rebellious... The 70-80 lots of coke and sex, the 90 crack and now other issues... I was looking at a study that says that this generation or current time in US is historically conservative. So, who can we believe?
      Haha, excellent point and well made. How can somebody possibly generalise an entire generation so broadly like that!?
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  • Profile picture of the author kevinfar
    Each generation will have its bad grapes and its good ones. I don't think that you can just generalize and say that this generation is all about using bad words to get attention.

    However I do agree that some of these people in this generation, especially the younger ones do think that some things that are obviously not ok, actually are.

    Kevin
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  • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
    BTW; That means; By the way! LOL!!! 10 year ago we did not have this little box where I am writing right now. What I mean is that this generation has so many options to speak out and even do it anonymously. That it makes it VERY difficult to restrict or control the quality of speech. A kid in the early 90 still did not had all the WORLD of options available right now. So the chances of speaking out freely were limited to his High School newspaper (under the guidance of his teachers).

    Right now there is no speed limit!!! We are not in the information super highway... This is more like the autobahn!
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  • Profile picture of the author silvervixen
    Some of the swearing may work for some markets, but you'd have to test to know for sure if you were getting results. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say perhaps younger markets (ages 20-30) would find this appealing, but I could be totally wrong.

    While not quite the same thing, it sort of follows the "in your face" type of advertising model that has become popular over the years.

    Again, how effective it is, I don't know, but if someone wasn't making money with it, you probably wouldn't see it much at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author webber1
    becoz they are lazy gits!! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author SuiteJ
    I personally don't use F-bombs or anything worse than BS in my writing, but I'm not offended at all by someone writing the word F*** unless it's used directly to offend me personally.

    For instance,
    If I read a product review that went something like this:
    "That Metallica DVD rocked my f****** socks off!"
    I'm not offended

    If you sent me an email saying:
    "Jay, you're a big f****** jerk"
    Now, I might be offended, but still depends on the context and tone. lol

    "WTF?" definitely does not offend me at all and I don't even consider it a curse. You are reading it to yourself in your head (unless you read everything out loud), so you don't really have to say "F***" to yourself if it bothers you. Say "Double Ewe Tee Eff" or replace "F" it with "Fudge".

    Try it! Seriously! WTF?

    I guess my point is that what matters to me most is the context and how it's being delivered.

    When I watch Gary Vaynerchuk keynotes and he drops F-Bombs inside his crazy passionate delivery, I'm not even remotely offended. In fact, I'm relieved by the fact that he's willing to be himself. (btw, the same goes for being yourself if you don't like to curse).

    Transparency and being genuine goes a long way, even if you drop a few bad words.

    Another great example is Jimmy Vee and Travis Miller with their "WTF?" episodes:
    Twitter Vs. Facebook -- WTF? Episode#51 - Gravitational Marketing Blog - Small Business Marketing | Gravitational Marketing

    I can't imagine anyone being offended by those videos, even though they're based on that "dirty acronym"!
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    OMFG!

    How about writing to reach your audience.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      OMFG!

      How about writing to reach your audience.
      How about it?

      That's already been discussed here.

      Just wondering what you were adding to the thread?

      ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      OMFG!

      How about writing to reach your audience.
      I'll bet you can reach your audience and more
      by not swearing or using abbreviations.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
        Originally Posted by Blase View Post

        I'll bet you can reach your audience and more
        by not swearing or using abbreviations.
        Not necessarily. If you're audience is a bunch of middle aged IMers then perhaps acronyms and current slang are not the ideal solution. But writing in a manner or about topics they can relate with is.

        If I'm targeting a younger demographic then it's a different story.

        OMFG was recently used in a CW ad for the television show Gossip Girl. I would think the ad company working for a tv network would have a good idea of what works. Apparently they believe that current internet slang and sex are going to appeal to the audience they are after.

        If I'm running a celebrity gossip list then "WFT" is very appropriate and maybe someday "gnarly" and "rad" will be in style again as well. I miss saying "gnarly dude".

        I've hot-linked the CW ad for everyone to enjoy.



        One shoe does not fit all.
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        • Profile picture of the author Blase
          Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

          Not necessarily. If you're audience is a bunch of middle aged IMers then perhaps acronyms and current slang are not the ideal solution. But writing in a manner or about topics they can relate with is.

          If I'm targeting a younger demographic then it's a different story.

          OMFG was recently used in a CW ad for the television show Gossip Girl. I would think the ad company working for a tv network would have a good idea of what works. Apparently they believe that current internet slang and sex are going to appeal to the audience they are after.

          If I'm running a celebrity gossip list then "WFT" is very appropriate and maybe someday "gnarly" and "rad" will be in style again as well. I miss saying "gnarly dude".

          I've hot-linked the CW ad for everyone to enjoy.


          One shoe does not fit all.
          Just because people go to a base level doesn't make it right.

          And if you think an ad agency knows what they are doing
          you really need to spend a lot more time study and testing
          sales and marketing.

          I was a National Sales and Marketing Manager for years,
          I've been to the meetings. The one thing ad agencies track
          really well is their billing!

          Yes sex sells and look at where that has gotten us.
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  • Profile picture of the author DougHughes
    I agree, the rudeness and profanity is offensive and won't get you far.

    Funny, just today I had a warrior from this forum (i'll leave his name out) opt-in to one of my lists and put down "Dick Breath" as his first and last name.

    Really? Is that the way you are going to treat someone who's giving you free stuff?

    Hopefully I'll bump into him at a convention sometime so I can give him a little chat about manners.
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by DougHughes View Post

      I agree, the rudeness and profanity is offensive and won't get you far.

      Funny, just today I had a warrior from this forum (i'll leave his name out) opt-in to one of my lists and put down "Dick Breath" as his first and last name.

      Really? Is that the way you are going to treat someone who's giving you free stuff?

      Hopefully I'll bump into him at a convention sometime so I can give him a little chat about manners.
      Bring mints to that meeting.
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      • Profile picture of the author bizfox
        It's more like internet meme talk. like lolcats.
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      • Profile picture of the author DougHughes
        Originally Posted by Blase View Post

        Bring mints to that meeting.
        Haha...good idea Blase.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizfox
    Nice I like it. What's missing is a search box
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
    I saw a young lady who happened to be carrying a hot pink purse with large-letter f-bombs written all over it in different fonts in black.

    I couldn't figure out if it was her take on life, or an open invitation!

    :-Don
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    • Profile picture of the author fitz10
      Originally Posted by Don Schenk View Post

      I saw a young lady who happened to be carrying a hot pink purse with large-letter f-bombs written all over it in different fonts in black.

      I couldn't figure out if it was her take on life, or an open invitation!

      :-Don
      This was probably the brand FCUK, which is French Connection UK. Then again, it could have been the real thing as I've seen plenty of girls with clothing and accessories with the "b word" on them.

      It's been said a million times before, but I hardly think swearing is a generational problem. I know plenty of people far older than myself (and I'm not even young!) who use terrible language, even in business situations..
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  • Profile picture of the author vneely
    I guess profanity doesn't have the same shock value anymore. I don't lift an eyebrow when I read or hear it on occasion. Sometimes it's even amusing.

    However, if someone is littering their speech or writing with certain four-letter-words, it grates me. Some people may be drawn to gutter speech, but using profanity too much can alienate all the folks who find it lazy, unimaginative, and inconsiderate. It's obnoxious almost in the same sense as overusing an exclamation point. It's useful for emphasizing a point, but it makes you look hyper or unstable if you keep ending your sentences with !!!

    On the "young generation" thing: I thought most teenagers were obnoxious even when *I* was a teenager, though that was less than ten years ago. On the other hand, I've also known a few teens who were more mature and articulate than some adults.

    PS: I see "FTW" a lot in some web comic circles, and it always seems to be used in the "For the Win" context.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    The OP asked a question.
    I gave a valid answer.


    By the way, there is a difference between mispelling something and making a typo.
    If you look at the letter on the keyboard and notice the discrepancy.

    Bring it on.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      The OP asked a question.
      I gave a valid answer.


      By the way, there is a difference between mispelling something and making a typo.
      If you look at the letter on the keyboard and notice the discrepancy.

      Bring it on.
      Actually, there is really no difference !! Both are equally bad. One says that you are ignorant while the other portrays someone who has a degree of sloppiness and does not take pride in their abilities to communicate in a proper and legible way !!
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Actually there is really no difference !! Both are equally bad. One says that you are ignorant while the other says you do not take pride in yourself or your abilities to communicate in a proper and legible way !!

        No, actually one says you have had 4 surgeries and several shots into the eyeballs that still hasn't corrected the problem.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Actually there is really no difference !! Both are equally bad. One says that you are ignorant while the other says you do not take pride in yourself or your abilities to communicate in a proper and legible way !!
        I spotted four mistakes in your first sentence. I normally wouldn't point them out, but I just had to ask if it was due to lack of pride or ignorance?

        Incorrect
        Actually there is really no difference !!

        Correct
        Actually, there really is no difference!



        Sorry, I tried to resist, but just couldn't seem to do it.

        ~Michael

        p.s. Kim, what about the bigger issue of condemning the bulk of an entire generation? As mentioned, young people in the 1960s were certainly not all drug-using, anti-establishment draft dodgers that didn't respect their elders, or were they?
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          We all need some correction Michael every now and then. Me included
          Honestly, I saw that but decided to not go back and put that comma in !!

          ***Edited what I wrote earlier
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      The OP asked a question.
      I gave a valid answer.


      By the way, there is a difference between mispelling something and making a typo.
      If you look at the letter on the keyboard and notice the discrepancy.

      Bring it on.
      Bring it on? No need to, you're doing yourself a big enough disservice.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Bring it on? No need to, you're doing yourself a big enough disservice.
        My goodness, aren't we touchy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          My goodness, aren't we touchy.
          Hmm...no, I don't think so. I just responded to your invitation. I did assume it was aimed at me since the prior part of your comment was. Was that an incorrect assumption?

          Besides, I would suggest your "bring it on" comment was the touchy one.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            Hmm...no, I don't think so. I just responded to your invitation. I did assume it was aimed at me since the prior part of your comment was. Was that an incorrect assumption?

            Besides, I would suggest your "bring it on" comment was the touchy one.

            Actually, no it wasn't aimed at you.
            when I got back and read the thread, I have been out most of the day, I saw numerous erroneous statements.
            I had considered quoting every one and answering that way,but then changed my mind.
            But I did know that once I answered there would be discussion in the thread again, so I said bring it on as a general statement.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Actually, no it wasn't aimed at you.
              when I got back and read the thread, I have been out most of the day, I saw numerous erroneous statements.
              I had considered quoting every one and answering that way,but then changed my mind.
              But I did know that once I answered there would be discussion in the thread again, so I said bring it on as a general statement.
              Fair enough, no problem. I'm sure you can see why I took it as being directed at me though.
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        • Profile picture of the author butters
          Kimw, this could all be solved and this post could get back on topic if you just admit you was wrong to condemn a generation and say sorry. Then we can all move on and let this post get back to what it was.

          (If there is a typo/misspelling in there, I don't care...)
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    I do think that it works for some people, and I do think that it helps you better connect to your target audience, IF you have established that they are ok with it.

    One thing that I learned very early in IM and at college where I also study marketing, is that you should never try and sell/write/advertise to "as many as possible". If cursing (so-so or heavily) makes you connect better with your IDEAL customer, then you act like the person that your ideal customer would actually like.

    And in relation to that is that you should always try to be on one side of the fence or the other, ex: serious/corporate like business and fun/tv-show like business. (don't know if thats actually how you would translate it).

    And there are people having success with both of these, ex: Jay Abraham and Vayner Media...have you heard how much Gary V. curses? and yet people pay him tens of thousands of dollars to speak at seminars.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "p.s. Kim, what about the bigger issue of condemning the bulk of an entire generation? As mentioned, young people in the 1960s were certainly not all drug-using, anti-establishment draft dodgers that didn't respect their elders, or were they? "

    Well Michael,to be honest I am actually surprised you took away that interpetation.
    I said we raised a generation with certain characteristics that the OP asked about.
    If I had meant every single individual I would have said that.
    I also stated that I had raised 5 kids. My kids did not grow up with those characteristics.

    Its funny how these threads go,and what people participating will pick up and run with.
    At another point someone tried to make it sound like I said I got all my information from the news.
    Thats absurd.

    Now move on to something important.
    Are you taking the online test right now?
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  • Profile picture of the author 808glass
    Welcome to the Internet...

    It was built by geeks and gamers, we love acronyms and 1337 speak, makes us feel important. n00b's FTW rotf lmao
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Of course I am 1337!
    I mean come on, I know what WTF and FTW means, along with RTFM, at least when they used to include the FM.
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    • Profile picture of the author FSchmieder
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Of course I am 1337!
      I mean come on, I know what WTF and FTW means, along with RTFM, at least when they used to include the FM.
      RTFPDF?

      Eh I guess I don't care about cursing. Whenever I read WTF or hear any sort of curse, it doesn't even phase me. I think it's really just more of a cultural thing. Plenty of my friends are very smart and I don't think any less of the one's that curse more than the other's.

      In the same vein, I can't understand how someone would think less of another person or dislike their message because of their verbiage. As long as I understand what they're saying, it's fine with me.

      Guess it just depends on you're values/how you were raised type thing
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      • Profile picture of the author whossh
        I'm not trying to be a smart ass here or comment on others, just trying to express my thoughts over this issue. Personally i feel that cursing and swearing is still okay as long as its not in public or in a company friends and community. Its better to let it out then keep inside of you, which could erupt into a bigger explosion...! Nontheless why keep the anger inside it will probably gives you tension and depression anyway.

        All of us comes from different backgrounds and cultures, ALL of us are good people and talking and writing is a form of communication. Even animals have their own form of communicating. They also vent their anger and frustrations...

        It makes me to wonder how beautiful OUR world is and how wonderful WE all are to be part of fantastic universe of adjectives...lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
    I guess it's possible there is a significant percentage of any market whose internal conversation and vocabulary is equally laced with profanity. I mean, consider that WTF has evolved as an efficiency ploy by people who type "What the F*ck" so frequently that they need to get some time back. That's absurd in and of itself, but it really is a case of someone using the language that they themselves use, and you can't really call someone out for being genuine. You can not like it, and not respond to it. But it's really just flavor.

    I read a thing today in a Dan Kennedy book that comes to mind - it was something like how causing revulsion in those who aren't in your market anyway can actually be an appeal to certain markets. The example given was Howard Stern. The people that like Stern hate the kind of people that hate Stern, and that enmity towards Howard actually pushes his core audience closer to him, rather than driving anyone away.

    Personally, I try to use profanity the way I was taught by my cajun elders - it's like cayenne pepper. You use it for a spicy emphasis and flavor, to get your attention. But if you use too much, you can't taste anything else at all. But you know, season to taste.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

      I guess it's possible there is a significant percentage of any market whose internal conversation and vocabulary is equally laced with profanity. I mean, consider that WTF has evolved as an efficiency ploy by people who type "What the F*ck" so frequently that they need to get some time back. That's absurd in and of itself, but it really is a case of someone using the language that they themselves use, and you can't really call someone out for being genuine. You can not like it, and not respond to it. But it's really just flavor.

      I read a thing today in a Dan Kennedy book that comes to mind - it was something like how causing revulsion in those who aren't in your market anyway can actually be an appeal to certain markets. The example given was Howard Stern. The people that like Stern hate the kind of people that hate Stern, and that enmity towards Howard actually pushes his core audience closer to him, rather than driving anyone away.

      Personally, I try to use profanity the way I was taught by my cajun elders - it's like cayenne pepper. You use it for a spicy emphasis and flavor, to get your attention. But if you use too much, you can't taste anything else at all. But you know, season to taste.
      See..we can get along, lol

      on topic: I totally agree with the Howard Stern example, thats what I meant with my post also.

      Instead of trying to please and attract everyone, just get your core/ideal following to like you more and more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

      I read a thing today in a Dan Kennedy book that comes to mind - it was something like how causing revulsion in those who aren't in your market anyway can actually be an appeal to certain markets. The example given was Howard Stern. The people that like Stern hate the kind of people that hate Stern, and that enmity towards Howard actually pushes his core audience closer to him, rather than driving anyone away.
      Two thoughts,

      I wonder if Dan Kennedy has ever put the "F" word in his copy.

      People choose to listen to Howard Stern and I understand the concept.
      The same thing works for conservative talk radio.

      I just am asking why people think it's OK when they don't know who is going to be reading their sales copy.

      Howard Stern knows his audience, none of the IMer's that I get email
      from know me.

      Does that make sense?
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    RTFPDF? Classic! Thanks for the laugh.

    Colin, great post.

    I can't say I never cussed while raising my kids, but I can say it was infrequent enough that if they heard me use a profanity or raise my voice, they knew something serious was going on.


    Even now they will tell me that cussing just doesn't sound right coming from me.
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  • Profile picture of the author All Night Cafe
    I have clicked on links thinking I was go to learn
    something only to be met with fowl remarks. I just
    close the message.

    So I know for me they lose possible sales with me
    and possible affiliate sales I could make for them.

    My mama taught me better.
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    • Profile picture of the author FSchmieder
      Originally Posted by All Night Cafe View Post

      I have clicked on links thinking I was go to learn
      something only to be met with fowl remarks. I just
      close the message.
      I hate when people talk about birds, too.

      I think the difference in opinions really seems to stem with age here. I'm 26 and could care less about cursing and it seems most of the younger guys and gals follow suit while most of the older folks think it's wrong. We're, of course, correct being younger and knowing everything.

      It's almost similar to the argument about how youth changes/distorts/ruins English. People have been saying that for hundreds of years and English seems to be doing just fine. It was actually more acceptable in Shakespearian times to say "We was going" instead of "We were going"
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    There is a certain traffic exchange owner who sends his emails with a lot of foul language in them. my wife reads them to me and I have told her to get away from there but she gets a lot of stuff from the exchange so she stays this is not just a younger thing here it is a horrible but true thing practiced by tons of folks business is to be intellectual and not the same as going down to street level as far as I am concerned.
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    This reminds me of the crazy nameless marketer that hit the internet marketing arena a few years ago, the Rich Jerk. He came off as being an obnoxious, filthy rich, smart ass, I-don't-care-about-you sort of guy, and I think this persona actually worked for him as his product sold like hot cakes for a relatively long period of time. I think he designed this whole persona for his marketing campaign, and I doubt that he was actually as obnoxious or pompous as he appeared in the marketing copy. Yet it seemed that people bought into this ploy, and it was at the top of the clickbank charts for a while. So as you can see, sometimes being obnoxious and profane can actually work to your advantage in certain cases. The 'gangster' persona seems to have been all the rage among the rap artists for quite a while now, and I've read that they sometimes concoct this seedy back story about themselves just to make themselves look more 'legitimate' among their peers.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

      ..... The 'gangster' persona seems to be all the rage among the rap artists right now, and I've read that sometimes they concoct this seedy back story about themselves just to make themselves look more 'legitimate' among their peers........
      If you mean "now" as in since rap started in the 80s, your right.

      I know some will disagree with me, but I have a copy of what has been called the first rap record, a 45rpm put out by Kurtis Blow called The Breaks.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Kim, you're absolutely right! I have edited my post, it was written in haste and I hadn't considered that initially. This deep-seated intertwining of rap and gangsters has been around since the early days of rap, and they just go hand in hand.


        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

        If you mean "now" as in since rap started in the 80s, your right.

        I know some will disagree with me, but I have a copy of what has been called the first rap record, a 45rpm put out by Kurtis Blow called The Breaks.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I don't remember who said it or where I heard it from, and someone already said the basic concept earlier in this thread, but profanity is the language of the uneducated.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I don't remember who said it or where I heard it from, and someone already said the basic concept earlier in this thread, but profanity is the language of the uneducated.
      That's interesting because I know plenty of educated people whom the majority have PhD's and they swear so I dont see any truth behind this statement.

      In fact, I dare say they are more educated than you even.

      And since you yourself have admitted to swearing in the past, that must mean that you yourself are uneducated.

      Mind you, I'd be a cranky old man to if my name was Kim :p (couldn't resist)


      Uneducated generation Y'er
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Right on Blase I agree 100% even the standards that say 30 yrs ago even 20 yrs ago on what was acceptable on tv is now not only accepted but endorsed
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Just because people go to a base level doesn't make it right.
    so what this is really all about is your morality and a belief that people have to behave in a way that you feel is proper or else it's wrong.

    you feel that profanity shouldn't be used in an ad campaign, email, billboard or whatever.

    And if you think an ad agency knows what they are doing
    you really need to spend a lot more time study and testing
    sales and marketing.
    so because you disagree with an ad agencies campaign you're writing them off as not know what they are doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    You know, for those of us who are not fans of foul language, it may be smart to not go too overboard with it. Here's my theory.

    A few people have mentioned TV from decades past. Fair enough. But was it really necessary to CENSOR the use of words like pregnant or toilet? I don't think so. Here's the problem. Once those words WERE allowed, others creeped in and now it's hard to find a show that doesn't have some curse words in it.

    My guess is that if the stuffed shirts on network TV took a more sensible approach years ago, it wouldn't have opened the floodgates like we have today.

    Now, this is kind of odd to me. On the Craig Ferguson Show, he is not allowed to say beaver in any context due to the possible sexual innuendo, YET he can say d**chebag and d**che with no problem. That just doesn't make sense. So, it looks like the network censors still don't get it. Makes me wonder what NEW swear words people will have to come up with in the near future.

    For the record, I'm not saying they should have an anything goes attitude about language on TV. Personally, I don't even care for d*m*, he**, a**, b***h or p*ss** off - but you'll be hard-pressed to find prime time shows that don't add them.

    All the best,
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Taylor
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      But was it really necessary to CENSOR the use of words like pregnant or toilet?
      Abe Simpson in an episode of The Simpsons sent a letter of complaint to his local TV station's advertisers...
      Dear Advertisers,

      I am disgusted with the way old people are depicted on television.

      We are not all vibrant, fun loving sex maniacs.

      Many of us are bitter, resentful individuals who remember the good old days when entertainment was bland and inoffensive.

      The following is a list of words I never want to hear on television again.

      Number one: bra
      Number two: horny
      Number three: family jewels
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      • Profile picture of the author FSchmieder
        Originally Posted by Michael Taylor View Post

        Abe Simpson in an episode of The Simpsons sent a letter of complaint to his local TV station's advertisers...
        Dear Advertisers,

        I am disgusted with the way old people are depicted on television.

        We are not all vibrant, fun loving sex maniacs.

        Many of us are bitter, resentful individuals who remember the good old days when entertainment was bland and inoffensive.

        The following is a list of words I never want to hear on television again.

        Number one: bra
        Number two: horny
        Number three: family jewels
        roflmaopimp
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
          Originally Posted by Blase View Post

          Two thoughts,

          I wonder if Dan Kennedy has ever put the "F" word in his copy.

          People choose to listen to Howard Stern and I understand the concept.
          The same thing works for conservative talk radio.

          I just am asking why people think it's OK when they don't know who is going to be reading their sales copy.

          Howard Stern knows his audience, none of the IMer's that I get email
          from know me.

          Does that make sense?
          I don't know if he uses the F word but he sure says "sh*t" a lot. In fact, in the same chapter I was talking about earlier, he talked about how he does use a rough persona and lets it all hang out because the majority of his paying customers are conservative male mid-westerners who appreciate his gruff "no b.s." tone.

          I agree that when the messaging content comes as a surprise, it can be jarring. For Kennedy, it says "No B.S." on the cover, so you have a clue as to where he's going. It won't be any surprise that the inside of the book matches the cover.

          The mistake the marketer is making in your example isn't in using the profanity, but rather in not using it as part of a persistent persona (whether it's authentic or made up like the Rich Jerk). There's no doubt what you'll be getting in that instance, but if you signed up for Granny Goodness' Weekly Cookie Recipe and Unicorn Sticker Newsletter and it turns out "Granny" cusses like a sailor, you're going to have a little bit of a disconnect.

          Of course, real world examples won't be as drastic, but what you're talking about is vitally important, and I think Dan calls it market-to-message matching.

          Your best bet really is to just be your own authentic self, and attract others that like you the way you naturally are. Now to the OPs point, you're going to see others that aren't your cup of tea for a variety of reasons. It's the internet - it's pretty easy to avoid the stuff you don't like with ignore lists and whatnot.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Michael Taylor View Post

        Abe Simpson in an episode of The Simpsons sent a letter of complaint to his local TV station's advertisers...
        Dear Advertisers,

        I am disgusted with the way old people are depicted on television.

        We are not all vibrant, fun loving sex maniacs.

        Many of us are bitter, resentful individuals who remember the good old days when entertainment was bland and inoffensive.

        The following is a list of words I never want to hear on television again.

        Number one: bra
        Number two: horny
        Number three: family jewels
        Or, as Ned Flanders once said to a woman he was dating, "Pardon my French, but you just made me one happy camper!"

        ~M~
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I don't remember who said it or where I heard it from, and someone already said the basic concept earlier in this thread, but profanity is the language of the uneducated.
      Probably was a truer statement a few decades ago, but then again, I guess it depends on how you define "educated." I know some formally educated people with filthy mouths.

      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Makes me wonder what NEW swear words people will have to come up with in the near future.
      I know, let's be trendsetters and make up the next generation cuss words ourselves. I'll start:

      Squazzle: noun, of course, I can't give you the definition as that would offend everyone.

      Who's next?
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      You know, for those of us who are not fans of foul language, it may be smart to not go too overboard with it. Here's my theory.

      A few people have mentioned TV from decades past. Fair enough. But was it really necessary to CENSOR the use of words like pregnant or toilet? I don't think so. Here's the problem. Once those words WERE allowed, others creeped in and now it's hard to find a show that doesn't have some curse words in it.

      My guess is that if the stuffed shirts on network TV took a more sensible approach years ago, it wouldn't have opened the floodgates like we have today.

      Now, this is kind of odd to me. On the Craig Ferguson Show, he is not allowed to say beaver in any context due to the possible sexual innuendo, YET he can say d**chebag and d**che with no problem. That just doesn't make sense. So, it looks like the network censors still don't get it. Makes me wonder what NEW swear words people will have to come up with in the near future.

      For the record, I'm not saying they should have an anything goes attitude about language on TV. Personally, I don't even care for d*m*, he**, a**, b***h or p*ss** off - but you'll be hard-pressed to find prime time shows that don't add them.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Here's where I think you got off track: in accepting the pro-censorship position that the way some people talk is a problem those of us who don't like it have to solve, by figuring out a way to control it. You seem to be trying to take the middle ground by pointing out that censorship can go too far, and maybe if it hadn't, there wouldn't be this terrible problem with the "floodgates" having gone off their hinges now, with really undesirable words having "crept in".

      But your paradigm is still the same as the censors: you just disagree with particular choices they made-not with the oppressive premise behind censorship itself: that people's language should be controlled, and speaking certain words should be criminal so that other people aren't offended.

      I think you really went overboard when you censored yourself from spelling the word "douche". Your point that it's silly that the words "toilet" and "pregnant" and "beaver" should be censored (I agree) is ruined by what follows.

      You apparently think there's good censorship and bad censorship, and if they had only refrained from censored words you consider silly to censor, we wouldn't have this terrible problem of people being allowed to say words like "douche", which perhaps really are unacceptable.

      The problem is there is nothing better about censoring "douche" than "toilet". They are both real things that exist, and the words are just a way of referring to them. To not be able to use the words, because they might embarrass or offend prudes is just silly and oppressive, as silly as the Victorian tradition of putting skirts on furniture legs so that their "crotches" would be properly covered (it took some of the dirtiest minds in history to come up with that kind of thing).

      Ultimately people who are bothered by "foul language" are giving it it's power in direct proportion to how big a fuss they make. I'm not particularly a fan of it either (nor am I opposed to it-Richard Pryor did some "filthy" routines that had me in stitches), but not liking it isn't a problem-I don't dig Howard Stern, so I don't listen-nobody's forcing it on me-no harm-no foul-no pun intended. It's the people who react against it that gives it any shock value it might have, making it's future use more likely when shock value is desired.

      Here's the bottom line: you can critique people's speech, and I might agree that, for example sales copy that has the "f-word" all through it is probably pretty stupid. But that's where it ends-I think it's stupid, not a social issue or a problem to be solved. Either you're for free speech or you're for censorship. You can't say, "well, I like free speech but with moderation I want to forbid the "f-word" and "douche" but allow "toilet"." Because that isn't free speech-it's censorship the way you think it should be handled.

      BTW-I still find it offensive that you're inviting us to "grab your package"
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

        Here's where I think you got off track: in accepting the pro-censorship position that the way some people talk is a problem those of us who don't like it have to solve, by figuring out a way to control it. You seem to be trying to take the middle ground by pointing out that censorship can go too far, and maybe if it hadn't, there wouldn't be this terrible problem with the "floodgates" having gone off their hinges now, with really undesirable words having "crept in".
        Hold the phone, Mr. Guitar! I never said I was pro-censor. But censorship on the airwaves exists, that's a fact. It's also a fact that the censors don't understand common sense and go too far.

        But your paradigm is still the same as the censors: you just disagree with particular choices they made-not with the oppressive premise behind censorship itself: that people's language should be controlled, and speaking certain words should be criminal so that other people aren't offended.
        You couldn't be more wrong, and you are reading way more into my post than is there. I am not pro-censorship. There are words I don't care for. And, for the record, I agree with the N-word being much worse than the F-word; a hundred times over. But NOWHERE did I suggest ANY word should be criminal. Far from it. There is a huge difference between mentioning what I find distasteful and saying others shouldn't say. NOTE: Anybody can say anything they like. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

        I think you really went overboard when you censored yourself from spelling the word "douche". Your point that it's silly that the words "toilet" and "pregnant" and "beaver" should be censored (I agree) is ruined by what follows.
        So, you do the same thing. There are things you like, and things you don't. You have already admitted you find certain words distasteful - we have slightly different lists, that's all. My ppoint isn't ruined at all by what follows. My point is that censors don't have a clue. They try, and I do think some words don't need to uttered over the public airwaves - BUT IF THEY ARE I can choose to turn them off. I'm not going to stop them from saying them, and they certainly shouldn't be criminal.

        You apparently think there's good censorship and bad censorship, and if they had only refrained from censored words you consider silly to censor, we wouldn't have this terrible problem of people being allowed to say words like "douche", which perhaps really are unacceptable.
        No, I think censorship is bad, but like it or not, it exists in the real world. Therefore, it would be great to see some sort of consistency from them. But, just as your list is different than mine, so too is their list. I don't agree with all of their choices, but that's just me.

        The problem is there is nothing better about censoring "douche" than "toilet". They are both real things that exist, and the words are just a way of referring to them. To not be able to use the words, because they might embarrass or offend prudes is just silly and oppressive, as silly as the Victorian tradition of putting skirts on furniture legs so that their "crotches" would be properly covered (it took some of the dirtiest minds in history to come up with that kind of thing).
        Calling someone a prude is offensive. And that's the difference between "toilet" and HOW d**che is used. When it's used to denigrate somebody as in D-bag, then it's ofensive. BUT if it were used in the context of what it is, then the word "douche" is fine and dandy. Just like "faggot" refering to a bundle of sticks, or "fag" referring to a cigarette is okay in some parts, but "fa**ot" and "f*g" being used as namecalling is not acceptable to me. And your point about the Victorian era is a good one - in fact it was much worse as anything above a woman's ankle was referred to as the "torso" (if memory serves) and this was even if she went to see a doctor. That's not just taking it too far, that was endangering lives for fear of uttering words like "stomach".

        Ultimately people who are bothered by "foul language" are giving it it's power in direct proportion to how big a fuss they make. I'm not particularly a fan of it either (nor am I opposed to it-Richard Pryor did some "filthy" routines that had me in stitches), but not liking it isn't a problem-I don't dig Howard Stern, so I don't listen-nobody's forcing it on me-no harm-no foul-no pun intended. It's the people who react against it that gives it any shock value it might have, making it's future use more likely when shock value is desired.
        This conversation originally started in reference to using cursing on general sales pages where it's difficult to know who will be reading them. In context, swearing can be done effectively. Someone mentioned Don Rickles as being funny without using foul language - now THAT'S funny! I would recommend they watch The Don Rickles Project, they will see he is about as "blue" as they come. But it is funny.

        Here's the bottom line: you can critique people's speech, and I might agree that, for example sales copy that has the "f-word" all through it is probably pretty stupid. But that's where it ends-I think it's stupid, not a social issue or a problem to be solved. Either you're for free speech or you're for censorship. You can't say, "well, I like free speech but with moderation I want to forbid the "f-word" and "douche" but allow "toilet"." Because that isn't free speech-it's censorship the way you think it should be handled.
        I NEVER said what you think I said. The problem is that censors ALREADY exist and they are not going away any time soon. Also, there IS a middle ground, though you seem to want to set up a false dichotomy. Sorry, but the idea of black and white is even more distasteful than selective censorship. Black and white thinking has probably led to more death and destruction than censorship ever has. Also, I never said I want to FORBID any word from being uttered. I can choose to not like them, and I can call you out on them if the situation warrants it. But, I don't want there to be a law that limits speech. Even if that speech is putting words in mouth.

        I call out people who use the N-word in my presence - every time. I don't care who they are. That may be the most offensive word I can think of. And I don't care about the argument of "I know white N-words" because I have NEVER heard it used in the same way in reference to white people by those who use it for other groups of people. Also, "they use it themselves" isn't a valid argument either; it's nothing more than an excuse. It's easy to see the vitriol spewing from the mouth of those who use it as an epithet, and I dislike it enough to say something about it.

        Finally, as I said numerous times, I am NOT pro-censorship. For example, when Tipper Gore and her ilk founded the PMRC I was not happy. Okay, being a music fan is a big part of that, but the idea of censoring was not cool. Funny that the Parental Advisory stickers they add to CDs may have actually increased sales! > Also, I refuse to buy ANY CDs at Wal-Mart BECAUSE of their asinine and hypocritical censorship policies.

        So, please don't confuse my not liking certain words for being in favor of censorship.

        BTW-I still find it offensive that you're inviting us to "grab your package"
        As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I'm no angel, and if I do swear it is with forethought. I think using swear words regularly is a sign of verbal laziness (just my opinion, not fact). However, my signature doesn't use a single offensive word and further highlights my point that NOT using swear words can be much more effective than using them.

        All the best,
        Michael

        p.s. Your other post about there being heroes and artists alive today was well-written and made many points I agree with.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Hold the phone, Mr. Guitar! I never said I was pro-censor. But censorship on the airwaves exists, that's a fact. It's also a fact that the censors don't understand common sense and go too far.

          You couldn't be more wrong, and you are reading way more into my post than is there. I am not pro-censorship. There are words I don't care for. And, for the record, I agree with the N-word being much worse than the F-word; a hundred times over. But NOWHERE did I suggest ANY word should be criminal. Far from it. There is a huge difference between mentioning what I find distasteful and saying others shouldn't say. NOTE: Anybody can say anything they like. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

          So, you do the same thing. There are things you like, and things you don't. You have already admitted you find certain words distasteful - we have slightly different lists, that's all. My ppoint isn't ruined at all by what follows. My point is that censors don't have a clue. They try, and I do think some words don't need to uttered over the public airwaves - BUT IF THEY ARE I can choose to turn them off. I'm not going to stop them from saying them, and they certainly shouldn't be criminal.

          No, I think censorship is bad, but like it or not, it exists in the real world. Therefore, it would be great to see some sort of consistency from them. But, just as your list is different than mine, so too is their list. I don't agree with all of their choices, but that's just me.

          Calling someone a prude is offensive. And that's the difference between "toilet" and HOW d**che is used. When it's used to denigrate somebody as in D-bag, then it's ofensive. BUT if it were used in the context of what it is, then the word "douche" is fine and dandy. Just like "faggot" refering to a bundle of sticks, or "fag" referring to a cigarette is okay in some parts, but "fa**ot" and "f*g" being used as namecalling is not acceptable to me. And your point about the Victorian era is a good one - in fact it was much worse as anything above a woman's ankle was referred to as the "torso" (if memory serves) and this was even if she went to see a doctor. That's not just taking it too far, that was endangering lives for fear of uttering words like "stomach".

          This conversation originally started in reference to using cursing on general sales pages where it's difficult to know who will be reading them. In context, swearing can be done effectively. Someone mentioned Don Rickles as being funny without using foul language - now THAT'S funny! I would recommend they watch The Don Rickles Project, they will see he is about as "blue" as they come. But it is funny.

          I NEVER said what you think I said. The problem is that censors ALREADY exist and they are not going away any time soon. Also, there IS a middle ground, though you seem to want to set up a false dichotomy. Sorry, but the idea of black and white is even more distasteful than selective censorship. Black and white thinking has probably led to more death and destruction than censorship ever has. Also, I never said I want to FORBID any word from being uttered. I can choose to not like them, and I can call you out on them if the situation warrants it. But, I don't want there to be a law that limits speech. Even if that speech is putting words in mouth.

          I call out people who use the N-word in my presence - every time. I don't care who they are. That may be the most offensive word I can think of. And I don't care about the argument of "I know white N-words" because I have NEVER heard it used in the same way in reference to white people by those who use it for other groups of people. Also, "they use it themselves" isn't a valid argument either; it's nothing more than an excuse. It's easy to see the vitriol spewing from the mouth of those who use it as an epithet, and I dislike it enough to say something about it.

          Finally, as I said numerous times, I am NOT pro-censorship. For example, when Tipper Gore and her ilk founded the PMRC I was not happy. Okay, being a music fan is a big part of that, but the idea of censoring was not cool. Funny that the Parental Advisory stickers they add to CDs may have actually increased sales! > Also, I refuse to buy ANY CDs at Wal-Mart BECAUSE of their asinine and hypocritical censorship policies.

          So, please don't confuse my not liking certain words for being in favor of censorship.

          As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I'm no angel, and if I do swear it is with forethought. I think using swear words regularly is a sign of verbal laziness (just my opinion, not fact). However, my signature doesn't use a single offensive word and further highlights my point that NOT using swear words can be much more effective than using them.

          All the best,
          Michael

          p.s. Your other post about there being heroes and artists alive today was well-written and made many points I agree with.
          Thanks for the kind words Michael. I appreciate and generally agree with most of your posts as well.

          BTW, I assumed that offering your "package" was an unintentional joke-but now it seems my "misinterpretation" was actually the reaction you were looking for-you naughty naughty boy! I love it-LOL!

          I'm glad for any degree of being wrong in this case, glad to hear you say you're anti-censorship, and glad you were against Tipper's efforts to save our youth from the foul mouths of recording artists.

          Still, re-reading your words, I think any confusion is coming from the words you wrote, not my imagination. If you hold a position of uncompromising opposition to all forms of censorship, your words make it impossible to tell.

          It seems to me that you're being pretty unclear, perhaps in an effort to inhabit the "middle ground" you believe exists in the issue, and avoid the "black and white" thinking, and "false dichotomy" you think I'm guilty of. Ultimately I get the impression you have mixed feelings about the topic. I do think you're leaning toward being against censorship, but your opposition seems tepid and incomplete.

          The only support I see for your declaration that "there IS a middle ground" or that I'm guilty of setting up a "false dichotomy" is that you dislike "black and white" thinking. The problem is that some dichotomies are real, and it seems to me the one that exists between censorship and free speech is hardly imaginary, or false, nor did I "set it up".. There is a such thing as irreconcilable ideas. For example "humane torture chambers", or "free speech with censors to keep it from getting out of hand".

          Any topic should be approached with an open mind; whether it's "black and white", or gray and fuzzy is to be discovered, not assumed because you're only comfortable with the way you assume it to be. I agree though, with what I imagine your intent is in disliking "black and white thinking"-that oversimplifying things can lead to very bad results (like the invasion of Iraq).

          However, like Albert Einstein once said (paraphrasing), "everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". I don't think I'm guilty of reducing the topic-rather I think you are needlessly complicating and muddying it, because of your discomfort with straying from the imagined "middle ground" thus ending up in a compromised position, but still calling it oppositional. One needn't study all the ways that censorship is being and has been applied to take a rational, principled position against it, nor is it wrong to be absolutist in defense of free expression.

          I'm not about to shed anyone's blood over it, but I'm also not about to look for a compromise between the censors and the first amendment. What is the "middle ground" you insist exists anyway? I can only imagine it would be some degree of restraint on speech, but less than total control. Or perhaps a more rational, "consistent" approach to what the censors ban. Perhaps we could give up the word "douche" as long as we get to keep "toilet", and "beaver".

          I don't see the point in calling for better censorship decisions-a hopeless compromise in my view, or more "consistency"-the very act of censorship is paranoid, oppressive, unconstitutional, irrational and arbitrary by nature, and if you see an acceptable compromise, I would suggest that your position is less than oppositional.

          If you saw it the way I do, it would seem ridiculous to be calling for a more "consistent" approach to censorship, let alone saying it would be "great to see some sort of consistency", given that censorship does exist. Why would that be great?-it's still censorship. It's like calling for child abusers to give less severe beatings.

          I don't think anything short of stopping it would be "great" because I see it as wrong on principle, and the fact that it exists, doesn't mean I have to recognize it's legitimacy, as anyone recommending a better approach to doing it implicitly does.

          Who cares which words get banned? So what if Rob and Laura had to use the word "expecting" instead of "pregnant". It's all arbitrary and idiotic. It's no better or worse than making us all find a new term for "dustpan", "glove", "sausage", "dried apricot", or whatever.

          (I blushingly apologize for not knowing how to do multi-quotes for the following). Earlier things you said went farther down the path of tacit acceptance. It seems to me, for example, when you defined "the problem" as being that, "once those [needlessly banned] words were allowed", others [which apparently you think really are bad] "crept in", you compromised your opposition to censorship-"the problem" in your words, didn't even include the fact that censorship is wrong on it's face, and should stop altogether, just that the past censors went overboard, causing a backlash, so that now we're confronted with "curse words" on almost every show. Your post expressed more concern about having to watch people curse, that having people restrict speech-since the latter didn't even achieve mention as part of your definition of "the problem".

          But you went even further astray from principled opposition to censorship itself when you said "I'm not saying they should have an anything goes attitude on TV". It's hard for me to see that as consistent with a clear and unequivocal opposition to censorship. Maybe you can clarify what you meant so I can see how I'm "reading way more into [your] post than is there".

          No matter how I slice it, that statement appears quite at odds with the view that censorship is flat out wrong, and should be strongly opposed. If you disagree with "anything goes" on TV, the only alternative that leaves is "some things don't go". How is that to be enforced, and how is that not censorship?

          As to your finer distinctions on what is offensive, I agree with the general idea that using words to insult or alienate people (especially oppressed groups) is offensive (unless it's defensive). I also think it should be protected with equal vehemence as any other speech. If freedom of speech doesn't include speech that offends or causes others discomfort, it's quite meaningless. To me Don Rickles can be far more offensive when he's insulting audience members with no "bad words" than when he's "working blue", but either way, my opposition to curtailing his rights is total.

          I'm sorry you were offended by my use of the word "prude", but I disagree that it's offensive, since I wasn't using it as an insult, but rather a fair description of the type of person that requires the curtailment of other peoples' speech so as to avoid embarrassment certain words trigger. Now that's not only prudish; it's truly offensive.

          Peace, and sorry for rambling, Greg
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          I call out people who use the N-word in my presence - every time. I don't care who they are. That may be the most offensive word I can think of. something about it.
          'everytime' ????

          uhmmmm.......so you are sitting smack in the middle of the BET Awards and right next to you sits P-Diddy who gives out a big hug to his man Jay Z and you hear him say to Jay Z
          "whats up my N**** "

          Oh I can see it now in the headlines..............Warrior gets knocked silly for 'calling out' P-Diddy after using the N word to his Buddy Jay Z.

          Right, sure your gonna call a person out everytime !! And I have a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.

          Sorry, I just dont believe this one single bit !
          And I couldn't resist commenting !! cough **cough
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Quote the entire paragraph and even you should be able to see the absurdity of your premise.

            If not, let me know and I'll be happy to explain.

            ~Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    You know what? Every quazzle here can go and drimp until they look like the luspars they really are!
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  • Profile picture of the author Russ Emrick
    This is the kind of discussion that goes no-where, a quagmire of conflicting opinions. However it is fascinating to read the justifications and confused reasoning. To believe that our society isn't cruder, less respectful, less honorable, and baser than previous generations is living in an alternative universe. Saying that previous generations did bad things (drugs, etc.) too is not only incorrect but using one wrong to justify another. For every drug addled Woodstock hippy there where thousands of Americans living a well balanced life.

    To dismiss the wisdom of elders with "every generation does their own thing" is, well, as Dr. Phil would ask "is that working for you? Based on the demographics of your generation from crime to drugs to divorce to depression I would say not.

    In the video with Tom Hanks on the making of the movie "Private Ryan" he tells an intersting story. They hired several veterna of WWII. They came to him and complained about the language being used, especially the F bomb. Tom initially said "we have to use this language otherwise people won't believe this is real dialoge." The guys responded, "well you told us you wanted an accuracy and we simply didn't talk like that."

    My parents had "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best". We have "The Simpsons" and "The Family Guy." They had Lawrence Welk, wonderful artists, musicians, thinkers and even heroic leaders. We have Crucifixes in Urine and profane rap music. Let me ask: which generation do you think were happier or lived more fulfilled lives? No, don't answer - your only reference is the made up movie version. The truth is: previous generations. They didn't require Prozak to get through the day or Riddlin to raise their children.

    Rant over. Back to the OP's point: profanity is seldom okay. You virtually assure yourself of a lost sale, a lost job interview, lost respect anytime you use profanity with 1)an adult 2)someone you don't know well 3)not another foul mouthed bud.

    Loved the comments "that's just how our generation speaks." Do you speak like that in-front of your mother? Don't answer cause I'll loose even more respect for you. I can tell you this - you won't speak that way in front of my wife or kids. My generation wasn't raised to think you had that right or that I'm powerless to kick your posterior. See I can say that without profanity.
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

      This is the kind of discussion that goes no-where, a quagmire of conflicting opinions. However it is fascinating to read the justifications and confused reasoning. To believe that our society isn't cruder, less respectful, less honorable, and baser than previous generations is living in an alternative universe. Saying that previous generations did bad things (drugs, etc.) too is not only incorrect but using one wrong to justify another. For every drug addled Woodstock hippy there where thousands of Americans living a well balanced life.

      To dismiss the wisdom of elders with "every generation does their own thing" is, well, as Dr. Phil would ask "is that working for you? Based on the demographics of your generation from crime to drugs to divorce to depression I would say not.

      In the video with Tom Hanks on the making of the movie "Private Ryan" he tells an intersting story. They hired several veterna of WWII. They came to him and complained about the language being used, especially the F bomb. Tom initially said "we have to use this language otherwise people won't believe this is real dialoge." The guys responded, "well you told us you wanted an accuracy and we simply didn't talk like that."

      My parents had "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best". We have "The Simpsons" and "The Family Guy." They had Lawrence Welk, wonderful artists, musicians, thinkers and even heroic leaders. We have Crucifixes in Urine and profane rap music. Let me ask: which generation do you think were happier or lived more fulfilled lives? No, don't answer - your only reference is the made up movie version. The truth is: previous generations. They didn't require Prozak to get through the day or Riddlin to raise their children.

      Rant over. Back to the OP's point: profanity is seldom okay. You virtually assure yourself of a lost sale, a lost job interview, lost respect anytime you use profanity with 1)an adult 2)someone you don't know well 3)not another foul mouthed bud.

      Loved the comments "that's just how our generation speaks." Do you speak like that in-front of your mother? Don't answer cause I'll loose even more respect for you. I can tell you this - you won't speak that way in front of my wife or kids. My generation wasn't raised to think you had that right or that I'm powerless to kick your posterior. See I can say that without profanity.
      I mean this only in the most humorous of ways, but do you happen to be waving a cane in the air right now?

      The degradation of the language is symptomatic of the general decline of civilization. People are getting stupider, but it's not TV's fault. The people who make the TV shows you're complaining about grew up watching the same shows you cite.

      What happens is the same thing that happens when you make a photo copy of a photo copy of a photo copy. Brecht said "Art is not a mirror, art is a hammer." In this case, I think it's a salient thought.

      There is no escape from the insidious influence of the media. You can be okay with that or not, but there's no "better" mass media. All of it is corrupting. Not that I mind that necessarily, considering what I do for a living. Maybe that's why I'm so sensitive.
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      • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post


        The degradation of the language is symptomatic of the general decline of civilization. People are getting stupider, but it's not TV's fault. The people who make the TV shows you're complaining about grew up watching the same shows you cite.

        No, isn't, and no, they aren't.

        This is selection bias at work. The only reason the 'olden days' seem better is because most of the crap has been forgotten or was never written down to begin with. Things seem worse today because we're surrounded by all the crap that will be largely forgotten in twenty or thirty years.

        This is compounded today by the fact that we're exposed to people via the internet that we never would have been even a decade or two ago. This isn't decline, this is being able to see more of the stupid.

        Going even further back in history, the vast, vast majority of people never left any kind of record at all. So you don't get to see how stupid people actually were, because they've been lost to obscurity.

        In fact, people are more literate and better educated than they ever have been, if you take away the warm glow of nostalgia. The fact that you are aware of how dumb people are is in itself evidence of it.

        People have been having this same conversation since at least the Greeks, and I suspect if we could travel back in time we'd find Grok sitting by a campfire complaining about how these teenagers are idiots and that things were better in Grok's grandfather's day.
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
          Originally Posted by Justin Jordan View Post

          No, isn't, and no, they aren't.

          This is selection bias at work. The only reason the 'olden days' seem better is because most of the crap has been forgotten or was never written down to begin with. Things seem worse today because we're surrounded by all the crap that will be largely forgotten in twenty or thirty years.

          This is compounded today by the fact that we're exposed to people via the internet that we never would have been even a decade or two ago. This isn't decline, this is being able to see more of the stupid.

          Going even further back in history, the vast, vast majority of people never left any kind of record at all. So you don't get to see how stupid people actually were, because they've been lost to obscurity.

          In fact, people are more literate and better educated than they ever have been, if you take away the warm glow of nostalgia. The fact that you are aware of how dumb people are is in itself evidence of it.

          People have been having this same conversation since at least the Greeks, and I suspect if we could travel back in time we'd find Grok sitting by a campfire complaining about how these teenagers are idiots and that things were better in Grok's grandfather's day.
          In caveman days, dummies were eaten by tigers. Eventually, the smarter people were the ones in charge and they made some good decisions that led to civilization.

          The problem is, comfort breeds laziness, laziness breeds stupidity. Eventually, stupidity ends up in charge, and then that's pretty much the end of things.

          Civilization falls, dark ages wind on. Plagues eventually kill enough dummies so that the smart people can get back in charge again. Then the Renaissance happens, and largely, smarter people have been in charge since then.

          Until recently. I'd say at no point in the history of earth has it ever been possible for people so dumb to be able to directly influence and control so many other dummies at once.

          That seems like a dangerous precedent. But I try not to be cynical about it. You seem to be saying that people have been this stupid all along, which they have. They just have sort of been limited in effectiveness by that stupidity until modern advances.
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          • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
            Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post


            Until recently. I'd say at no point in the history of earth has it ever been possible for people so dumb to be able to directly influence and control so many other dummies at once.

            That seems like a dangerous precedent. But I try not to be cynical about it. You seem to be saying that people have been this stupid all along, which they have. They just have sort of been limited in effectiveness by that stupidity until modern advances.
            I don't really think that stupid people have much more effect on things than they every have. They're certainly getting heard a lot more, but things are still getting done and decided by people that are fairly smart.

            This next part is, I'm sure, cynicism. I think it's accurate cynicism, but take it or leave it - the elite have always done enough for the common people to keep them from actively destroying them ( or failed to do so, in many cases) the only thing that really changes is who the elite are.

            These days, it's large corporations who, while not necessarily always making the smartest decisions, tend to accumulate people who are fairly smart, at least in comparison. They have a lot more influence on government, at least western government, than anyone else. Not simply through corruption, but through the media.

            This mitigates, to a large extent, the power of the dumb, but it has a whole lot of other problems.

            That said, I don't necessarily agree with the idea of cycles of rise and decline. Civilization's prominence comes and goes, but this is rarely accompanied by the culture regressing - at most, what you tend to get is the rate of advancement slowing down.

            It's one of the reason people have gotten away from calling the dark ages the dark ages, because they aren't especially dark in the sense we don't know a lot about them, and they weren't nearly the period of decline some classical history made them out to be.

            Man, I think we're waaaay off topic, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

      This is the kind of discussion that goes no-where, a quagmire of conflicting opinions. However it is fascinating to read the justifications and confused reasoning. To believe that our society isn't cruder, less respectful, less honorable, and baser than previous generations is living in an alternative universe. Saying that previous generations did bad things (drugs, etc.) too is not only incorrect but using one wrong to justify another. For every drug addled Woodstock hippy there where thousands of Americans living a well balanced life.

      To dismiss the wisdom of elders with "every generation does their own thing" is, well, as Dr. Phil would ask "is that working for you? Based on the demographics of your generation from crime to drugs to divorce to depression I would say not.

      In the video with Tom Hanks on the making of the movie "Private Ryan" he tells an intersting story. They hired several veterna of WWII. They came to him and complained about the language being used, especially the F bomb. Tom initially said "we have to use this language otherwise people won't believe this is real dialoge." The guys responded, "well you told us you wanted an accuracy and we simply didn't talk like that."

      My parents had "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best". We have "The Simpsons" and "The Family Guy." They had Lawrence Welk, wonderful artists, musicians, thinkers and even heroic leaders. We have Crucifixes in Urine and profane rap music. Let me ask: which generation do you think were happier or lived more fulfilled lives? No, don't answer - your only reference is the made up movie version. The truth is: previous generations. They didn't require Prozak to get through the day or Riddlin to raise their children.

      Rant over. Back to the OP's point: profanity is seldom okay. You virtually assure yourself of a lost sale, a lost job interview, lost respect anytime you use profanity with 1)an adult 2)someone you don't know well 3)not another foul mouthed bud.

      Loved the comments "that's just how our generation speaks." Do you speak like that in-front of your mother? Don't answer cause I'll loose even more respect for you. I can tell you this - you won't speak that way in front of my wife or kids. My generation wasn't raised to think you had that right or that I'm powerless to kick your posterior. See I can say that without profanity.
      According to your view, I live in an alternate universe (thank goodness). I happen to think it's less narrow than the one dimensional historical fantasy you've portrayed, and definitely less narrow than the US before the cultural revolution of the 1960s. Are you kidding me-you're nostalgic for Lawrence Welk, Leave it to Beaver, and Father Knows Best, and prefer them to The Simpsons and Family Guy?

      As far as the "wonderful artists, musicians, thinkers, and even heroic leaders" go, every generation has them, and I've been to more great performances than I can count. Don't get me wrong-I love earlier artists, from Bach through Bartok, from Django Reinhardt through John Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix, and Weather Report, but some of the best musicians ever are active today.

      The insipid music of Lawrence Welk doesn't even deserve a mention. As far as great thinkers go, there are plenty still around (thinking doesn't go out of fashion).

      The previous more "respectful", "honorable" etc, generations you speak of hung black men from trees (more often by far than today) for glancing at a white woman, or being out on the street in the wrong town after dark.

      One southern US town had a sign on the edge of town saying "[N-word] don't let the sun go down on you"-in other words-if you're caught in town after dark, we'll kill you. For such a sign to exist meant most people either shared the attitude, or were too terrified to challenge it. Where is the respect and honor in that?

      In the southern US, the culture of white terrorism prevailed right up until the massive improvements that came about with the sixties revolution you've disparaged with your "drug addled Woodstock hippie" comment. It came about through the incredible courage of the "hippie" generation-mostly college students that wanted to (and did) change the world. Some of them died for the change.

      You should read the book "Black Like Me" for a taste of the life of a black man in the southern US during the 1950s (I might be mistaken on the time frame-it might have been the early sixties-it's been decades since I read it).

      BTW, the most prevalent drug at Woodstock was the one our founding fathers also probably smoked. Arguably much less harmful and more socially benign than the far more acceptable killer (and driver of violence-particularly the domestic sort) that your "thousands" living "balanced lives" drank at their cocktail parties. Woodstock had more people than ever before assembled in one place, and yet it was as peaceful a gathering as you could ask for-not to mention offering historic, stellar musical performances-especially Hendrix'. I guess the "drug addled hippies" were onto something that eluded their cocktail soaked parents.

      If you have any gay friends, ask them if they're nostalgic for the more "honorable", "heroic", pre-Stonewall time, when it was considered good fun to beat up "queers", and to challenge such violence was to become a victom of it. Not much honor and respect there either.

      Are you nostalgic for the days before gays came out of the closet? They were so deep in it when I was a child that I was in my teens when I found out they existed. To many members of earlier generations, I'm sure Will and Grace and the Ellen show are excruciating evidence of cultural decline.

      Are you nostalgic for the pre-Roe V. Wade days of back alley coat hanger abortions-when teen pregnency often meant death for girls that, thanks to the "honorable" past generations' refusal to deal with sex education, had never learned about preventing pregnency (other than the shame attached to sex itself-in a futile attempt to thwart the natural hormonal drive)?

      Yes how things have declined-disparaging words that respected members of previous generations casually used (backed up by massive brutality), to alienate and humiliate some of the least powerful members of society are now considered unacceptable in decent circles.

      Also gone are the good old days when it was okay for teachers to beat the children. Yes, I'm old enough to have had my share of that lovely tradition-suprisingly, I don't miss it.

      I for one infinitely prefer "WTF", or just about any other use of the "F-word" over the "N-word", "f*ggot", or any of the other common expletives used to keep women, blacks, gays, etc in their place. In that regard, I'm infinitely pleased with the progress in language and cultural standards that has taken place since Lenny Bruce's time. (Obviously those words still exist, but their acceptability has drastically declined-evidence of great cultural progress in my book).

      Ironically, I'm probably much older than you, since I grew up with shows you call your parent's shows. That means I'm old enough to have witnessed my mother being humiliated at a bank that insisted she get her husband's permission to conduct a normal transaction my dad was allowed to do without question. They were both named on the account, but women were actually considered the "property" of their husbands.

      There has been a massive shift for the better when it comes to gender equality, and I find that, and many other changes extremely encouraging, and cussing rappers is way down there on my list of things that are wrong with society-actually it's not even on it. While you're mourning cultural decline, I'm celebrating cultural progress.
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    • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
      Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

      This is the kind of discussion that goes no-where, a quagmire of conflicting opinions. However it is fascinating to read the justifications and confused reasoning. To believe that our society isn't cruder, less respectful, less honorable, and baser than previous generations is living in an alternative universe.
      No, it's not the people that believe that who were living in the alternate universe. Every generation has had exactly the same thing to say about the generations after them. For some one who speaks of the wisdom of elders, this refusal to see that pattern is pretty funny.

      Once again, any look at actual history and not fairytale history will show that people have always been crude, disrespectful, and dishonorable. To say nothing of the fact that people from before, say, Elvis Presley reacted to him with the same kind of horror you're applying to rap.

      Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post


      In the video with Tom Hanks on the making of the movie "Private Ryan" he tells an intersting story. They hired several veterna of WWII. They came to him and complained about the language being used, especially the F bomb. Tom initially said "we have to use this language otherwise people won't believe this is real dialoge." The guys responded, "well you told us you wanted an accuracy and we simply didn't talk like that."

      Or they were lying. I was raised by a WWII veteran and around WWII vets and they all swore like sailors. Now, that's anecdotal evidence, but recordings by and around soldiers back then when they weren't being interviewed supports the idea that young men tended to swear a lot.

      Possibly Hanks got the one group that didn't, or they didn't want to be looked at that way, or, as the common theme of this thread, they edited their own history to make it better than it was.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        You know, for those of us who are not fans of foul language, it may be smart to not go too overboard with it. Here's my theory.

        A few people have mentioned TV from decades past. Fair enough. But was it really necessary to CENSOR the use of words like pregnant or toilet? I don't think so. Here's the problem. Once those words WERE allowed, others creeped in and now it's hard to find a show that doesn't have some curse words in it.

        My guess is that if the stuffed shirts on network TV took a more sensible approach years ago, it wouldn't have opened the floodgates like we have today.

        Now, this is kind of odd to me. On the Craig Ferguson Show, he is not allowed to say beaver in any context due to the possible sexual innuendo, YET he can say d**chebag and d**che with no problem. That just doesn't make sense. So, it looks like the network censors still don't get it. Makes me wonder what NEW swear words people will have to come up with in the near future.

        For the record, I'm not saying they should have an anything goes attitude about language on TV. Personally, I don't even care for d*m*, he**, a**, b***h or p*ss** off - but you'll be hard-pressed to find prime time shows that don't add them.

        All the best,
        Michael
        > Rob and Laura Petrie slept in twin beds and still managed to have a baby, even though Laura was never pregnant, always expecting.

        > Ads for women's undergarments had to use mannequins with no heads, arms, legs, etc. so it was obvious there was no skin showing.

        Originally Posted by FSchmieder View Post

        I hate when people talk about birds, too.

        I think the difference in opinions really seems to stem with age here. I'm 26 and could care less about cursing and it seems most of the younger guys and gals follow suit while most of the older folks think it's wrong. We're, of course, correct being younger and knowing everything.

        It's almost similar to the argument about how youth changes/distorts/ruins English. People have been saying that for hundreds of years and English seems to be doing just fine. It was actually more acceptable in Shakespearian times to say "We was going" instead of "We were going"
        I've often said that the age limits for politics should be between 13 and 18. That way, we get them while they still know everything...:rolleyes:

        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Probably was a truer statement a few decades ago, but then again, I guess it depends on how you define "educated." I know some formally educated people with filthy mouths.



        I know, let's be trendsetters and make up the next generation cuss words ourselves. I'll start:

        Squazzle: noun, of course, I can't give you the definition as that would offend everyone.

        Who's next?
        Comic Chelsea Handler does this on her show all the time. She refers to her "kaslopis", her boyfriend's "shuttlecock", taking a "shadoobie" and so on. From time to time, she'll glance at a monitor to see if she's been bleeped or not.

        If anyone remembers the old "White Shadow" TV show, you might remember an episode where the inner-city ("black") team had to forfeit a game against a suburban school because the players cursed too much.

        The coach, when told "that's just how we talk - it gives them an edge because it makes the other team uncomfortable", has a suggestion for them.

        Cut to the rematch. A white player slips past his black opponent. The ref already has the whistle in his mouth. The black player shouts "Oh, peanut butter", then cuts back in front of the speechless and suddenly frozen white player, steals a pass and dunks...

        I'll leave this post with a scene from one of my favorite movies, for those mourning the older, more civilized times...

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        • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Comic Chelsea Handler does this on her show all the time. She refers to her "kaslopis", her boyfriend's "shuttlecock", taking a "shadoobie" and so on. From time to time, she'll glance at a monitor to see if she's been bleeped or not.
          Chelsea Handler is HILARIOUS!!!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author zcx
      Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

      For every drug addled Woodstock hippy there where thousands of Americans living a well balanced life.
      And thousands of us started out as the former and wound up as the latter.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimPup
    I'm waiting for the guy with the username "WTF" to get in here!! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Russ Emrick
    Colin - I actually don't understand the point of your response. Professor Neil Postman has written several good books on the deleterious effects of TV, such as "Amusing Ourselves To Death. Another research based book is "The Plug In Drug" by Marie Winn. So while I agree as self evident that "the degradation of the language is symptomatic of the general decline of civilization" I vehemently disagree that TV has nothing to do with that. Neil would attribute most if not all such cultural decline to the media.

    If your analogy of culture being simply a photocopy of a photocopy is to say that culture is inexorably subject to some entropic principle I would say nonsense. The Renaissance and The Enlightenment grew out of and flourished from terrible archetypes. In other words culture once progressed instead of regressed as this generation has done.

    Another good commentary on this society is Poet Laureate Robert Bly's "The Sibling Society" The Bly from "Iron John" not the Direct Marketer.

    People of the media who make such vacuous statements as "its the people not the media" or "there is no bad media" use the same arguementation as pornographers and violence purveyors. While saying these things have no effect they charge billions for advertising and spend careers studying copy-writing, NLP, and other manipulation techniques.

    Wow are we far a field. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program...curse away.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    There are actually a lot of different cultures and markets and in some markets, swearing is just peachy keen. I have no aversion to marketing copy with some swearing in it. I can be used creatively and gets a point across. But then, I swear occasionally in real life too.

    Originally Posted by KimW View Post

    I don't remember who said it or where I heard it from, and someone already said the basic concept earlier in this thread, but profanity is the language of the uneducated.
    A lot of sales pages are geared toward the uneducated. The really bright people would never fall for it.

    Originally Posted by goldmind123 View Post

    Anyone Remember the sad days of what so called the R.J?

    This stupid silly attitude of marketing made some people hink it's cool to be offensive and disrespectful.

    As long as people don't use their mind and logic, we will keep seeing this
    You mean Rich Jerk, who became one of the top Clickbank products for a very long time and laughed all the way to the bank?
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    If she ever starts saying 'banana fiddlesticks' I'd look out!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rich2010
    WTF...he's clearly right with regards how and when the term "WTF" should be used
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    • Profile picture of the author Ram
      I've always found it interesting how a one arrangement of letters can be "offensive" or "crude" or even "evil" and another arrangement just fine.

      Words have power, but only the power we give them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        I know... Use WTF to refer to whatever the reader's imagination wants to infer. If you want to mean the actual curse word, use WT*.

        *Unless you're using an asterisk for a footnote. Hey, in this case, it literally stands for footnote. Cool. What the footnote have you been up to?
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  • The only way to start a bigger fight among Warriors would be to start a thread like:
    "Cats vs Dogs- Who's Smarter?"
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Infinite Shades of Grey View Post

      The only way to start a bigger fight among Warriors would be to start a thread like:
      "Cats vs Dogs- Who's Smarter?"
      Dogs, without a doubt.
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  • and on a very bias note of personal observation... why do so many people from Minnesota seem to have a stick up their a**es?
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      < Goes to microwave to grab 3rd batch of popcorn >

      I know, I know.....WTH!!!!

      RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Infinite Shades of Grey View Post

      and on a very bias note of personal observation... why do so many people from Minnesota seem to have a stick up their a**es?
      HEY! I'm from Minnesota! And I just can't let a comment like that slide.

      I'll have you know it's NOT a stick. It's ice. We tend to get better in the spring.

      Cheers,
      Becky
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      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

        HEY! I'm from Minnesota! And I just can't let a comment like that slide.

        I'll have you know it's NOT a stick. It's ice. We tend to get better in the spring.

        Cheers,
        Becky
        WTF was that all about?!?!?!?!
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

          HEY! I'm from Minnesota! And I just can't let a comment like that slide.

          I'll have you know it's NOT a stick. It's ice. We tend to get better in the spring.

          Cheers,
          Becky
          Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

          WTF was that all about?!?!?!?!
          Jason, I spent the first 28 years of my life in Minnesota.

          Trust me, it's the ice talking...
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          • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Jason, I spent the first 28 years of my life in Minnesota.

            Trust me, it's the ice talking...
            I believe you.

            I was just being a "funny guy" about the whole language in advertising topic this thread is about.

            Hence the use of WTF in most of my replies.

            WTF John! I thought you caught on. LMFAO!!! hahahaahahaha
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              I'm still trying to figure out what the World Taekwondo Federation did to offend so many people.

              WTF World Taekwondo Federation
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              • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
                I'd say it depends on your audience.

                Single, 18-35 year old men might have a different threshold for what they consider offensive language than married 60 year old women.

                Likewise, if you're marketing an adult product versus a religious or spiritual product.

                As for the "those darn teenagers" argument, I think every generation thinks the generation after it are a bunch of knuckleheads. I know people in their early 20's who complain about "kids today" (meaning people who are like 6 years younger than they are) and the stupid stuff they do.

                Personally I think it's a double edged sword. Sure, on the surface, young people might seem more disrespectful compared to a few generations ago, but at the same time, they have much more freedom of expression than those generations did. I'd rather be a young person today with all the attendant problems that go with that, than to grow up in the 40's or 50's, where I'd be required to talk, think and act and interact in a limited number of stereotyped, conservative ways.

                Also this is all subjective. There are people in the world right now who think the fact that our women can vote and aren't required to wear burqa's in public are a sure sign of our moral decay. Does that make them right?
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          • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Jason, I spent the first 28 years of my life in Minnesota.

            Trust me, it's the ice talking...
            Does that make everyone from Minnesota iceholes?

            (he says quickly then runs away).
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            So that blind people can hate them as well.
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

              I believe you.

              I was just being a "funny guy" about the whole language in advertising topic this thread is about.

              Hence the use of WTF in most of my replies.

              WTF John! I thought you caught on. LMFAO!!! hahahaahahaha
              Jason, I did catch on. I guess sometimes my humor misses the mark. (Happens all the time with my wife - I'll bust out laughing at something, and she'll give me that "what's so funny" look...)

              Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

              Does that make everyone from Minnesota iceholes?

              (he says quickly then runs away).
              Only the ones who spend hours sitting on a pickle bucket or milk crate, staring down a hole through 3-4 feet of ice waiting for a fish to swim by...

              I was more than ready to trade my auger (with extension) for a sand spike and beach chair.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Rod,
    Don't you mean "WTF!!??"
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  • Profile picture of the author TylerF
    He could have other meanings, e.g. What's The Fire?
    It's just basically a teenagers term.

    Don't fret too much about it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
      Funny aside, but when I read internet abbreviations like WTF, I actually do read them as letters, not the actual words.

      In other words, when I read LOL, in my mind I say it as EL OH EL, not Laughing Out Loud.

      OMG is OH EM GEE, and so on.
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    • Profile picture of the author DaveHughes
      Prithee, fine sirrah, might I trouble thee for a moment of your time? On the morrow, there shall be seen uponst the web of this wide world a resounding introduction, the likes of which few hath seen ere this date. Forsooth, if thou shalt honor me with thee electronic correspondence address, inform thee I shall when the clock strikes midnight!
      There...build your list with that. Totally non-offensive, morally pure and written with a language used in a much "better" time.

      If you find something morally offensive, feel free to avoid it like the plague; someone else will come along that actually understands the market they're trying to reach and "speak their language"...and possibly say "WTF!" when they see the Paypal amounts start to roll in.

      Don't get me wrong; if you're using profanity just to use it (or, even worse, because you're not really aware that you are), then it's a problem, and you should address it. However, if you've researched the niche you're trying to speak to, you should be aware of how that group talks amongst themselves.

      WTF...OMG...WTH...FTW...those are all extremely common amongst gamers, a lucrative niche. I've gamed for quite a while (I'm 42, so "for quite a while" goes back to putting quarters into a "Pong" machine), and gamed with people from age 72 down; I've never seen any of them complain about those acronyms. So, would they be acceptable to use in marketing messages targeted at that niche? You'd better believe it.

      I did want to respond to one comment from Blase earlier:

      Howard Stern knows his audience, none of the IMer's that I get email
      from know me.
      Howard Stern identified a niche market of listeners, and then slowly built a product that delivered what they couldn't get elsewhere and turned them into raving fans that followed him from station to station, hanging on his every word. (If that's not a good definition of a part of what "IM gurus" do, I don't know what is.)

      No, the people writing the autoresponders don't know you...they DO presumbably know their target market. If they're making money...guess what? You're not in the target market they're aiming for, and they won't be too upset if you unsubscribe. Either that, or enough of their target market doesn't care, in which case there's no incentive to change what they're doing.

      If they're not making money, then the problem will be self-correcting.

      By definition, niche marketing is talking to one very specific group of people...not crafting a message that everyone will be okay with. And trying to insist that your personal prefrences should be used in all situations just in case you happen along...well, the world doesn't work that way anymore, for better or worse.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Actually, a lot of people do mistake what the meanings really are.
    When I first met my wife, she thought LOL was Lots Of Laughs.
    Since we had just started dating, it was a year or so before I corrected her.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    "WTF...OMG...WTH...FTW...those are all extremely common amongst gamers, a lucrative niche. I've gamed for quite a while (I'm 42, so "for quite a while" goes back to putting quarters into a "Pong" machine), and gamed with people from age 72 down; I've never seen any of them complain about those acronyms. So, would they be acceptable to use in marketing messages targeted at that niche? You'd better believe it."

    Dave, I am a gamer also and you are right on target.
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    • Profile picture of the author DaveHughes
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      "WTF...OMG...WTH...FTW...those are all extremely common amongst gamers, a lucrative niche. I've gamed for quite a while (I'm 42, so "for quite a while" goes back to putting quarters into a "Pong" machine), and gamed with people from age 72 down; I've never seen any of them complain about those acronyms. So, would they be acceptable to use in marketing messages targeted at that niche? You'd better believe it."

      Dave, I am a gamer also and you are right on target.
      What I find interesting is that some of the same people that don't have even a small problem with those acronyms will quit their guild ("group of gamers") if people are using the F-word. They're not considered the same by that group.
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  • Profile picture of the author mghowell
    I remember growing up where swearing was common in public, but not part of the main stream media. Currently however, I think its just the worlds moral compass is repositioning itself. I myself firmly believe that if a person cant get their point across without using existing nonswear words in the English language, they shouldn't say anything at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author DaveHughes
      Originally Posted by mghowell View Post

      I remember growing up where swearing was common in public, but not part of the main stream media. Currently however, I think its just the worlds moral compass is repositioning itself. I myself firmly believe that if a person cant get their point across without using existing nonswear words in the English language, they shouldn't say anything at all.
      Absolutely nothing wrong with that in my opinion!

      However, it doesn't have a thing to do with marketing. If you're trying to sell a "How to Rap" minicourse, if you don't use swear words you won't build authority.

      Again, if the way a niche talks amongst themselves bothers you on a personal level, don't market to them. However, no one should hold the opinion that their idea of how things should be said is the only way things should be done by everyone.

      Language is situational.

      Someone that curses like a sailor wouldn't drop the f-bomb during a church service. Why? Because they know it's not the time or place. If they did, others in that service that curse continuously outside of church would get offended, or at least feel uneasy about it.

      However, there's a difference between using the f-word as an adjective three times per sentence, and using it strategically and with forethought. The first will (more often than not) cause offense, while the second could be to your benefit.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by mghowell View Post

      I remember growing up where swearing was common in public, but not part of the main stream media. Currently however, I think its just the worlds moral compass is repositioning itself. I myself firmly believe that if a person cant get their point across without using existing nonswear words in the English language, they shouldn't say anything at all.
      Take away any random small group of words and you can generally figure out a way of saying what you want, (assuming they aren't articles), even if it doesn't have the exact tone you'd prefer. Just because someone used a "swear" word, doesn't mean they can't say it another way-but they choose to say it the way they do. So they use a tone that displeases some people. So what?

      I hardly think that "swear" words in the media are any indication of anything to do with "moral compass" re-positioning. Why make such a trivial matter into a moral issue? Like colors on a painter's pallet, they are just other shades-you might not like them, but that doesn't make you more "moral" than someone who does. Moral issues are things like bombing, shooting, and otherwise harming other people. If your intent in talking is to hurt people with mean spirited comments, well that's arguably wrong, but you can do that without "swearing". It's all about intent.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    God, I love it, 4 pages over WTF! LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author eQuus
    Some people use profanity to add power and conviction to what they say. Without the "F" word they'd be speechless.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raiel Schwartz
    Hehe...

    and here I thought you were going to
    ask why people write in this paragraph
    structure, because it's a habit that I
    have just seemed to pick up myself.

    Sincerely,
    Craig Michaels
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Censorship is a necessary part of a civilized society, it's just the degree of censorship that is in dispute. Anyone that says they're against all censorship hasn't thought about it much, or they have deeper problems than censorship issues. Of course, that's just my uncensored opinion.
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Censorship is a necessary part of a civilized society, it's just the degree of censorship that is in dispute. Anyone that says they're against all censorship hasn't thought about it much, or they have deeper problems than censorship issues. Of course, that's just my uncensored opinion.

      Do you mean the obvious common sense exceptions to the right of free speech (such as when you knowingly put someone's life in danger by flapping your yap)? Other than that, your post is pure nonsense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Greg,

    Maybe this will help. The post I made about going too far was more of a warning to those who find certain words offensive. That when they go overboard it will come back to haunt them in ways that are worse than they expect.

    The middle ground is this:

    I find certain words offensive, but that doesn't mean people don't have the right to say them. Depending on the situation, I may call them out on it (as in the use of the N-word in my presence), turn it off, laugh, or if it's a classic punk rock song...sing along.

    In other words, the middle ground is that I have my personal likes as far as words go, and others have different likes. Therefore, the incongruence you seem to be picking up on is my not making a clear enough disctinction when I'm referring to my private thoughts on cursing and as opposed to the rights of others to say them. Hope that makes sense?

    As far as censors go, the point I'm making is that they are here to stay, and while fighting them is always an option, I don't think it's the best way. As long as they are around, there must be some way for them to come up with a more loogical approach - BUT how can you be logical when it comes to censorship? A PARADOX!!!!

    The FCC levies steep fines, but what most people don't know is that the FCC doesn't go after broadcasters for foul language UNLESS they receive complaints from the public. I've often wondered who the people are that complain. Would I? Well, that's where it comes down to context. If my kids wre younger and Big Bird start dropping F-bombs on Sesame Street, I may file a formal complaint - at the very least, I would send an e-mail to PBS telling them I disapprove. HOWEVER, if say, Eddie Murphy was pretending to be a children's character, oh I don't know, like Gumby, and he dropped an F-bomb or two, then I may laugh because it would be in the appropriate context.

    So, while I am anti-censorship, there are potential cases where the inappropriateness would be a cause for concern.

    Who knows, maybe you're right in that I have conflicted feelings on the issue. I'm not a prude, but I do think too many people swear too much. Perhaps it's my love of language that makes me want to hear something more clever than cursing. However, as i mentioned earlier, if it's done right (as in not because of laziness) then it ain't so bad.

    All the best,
    Michael

    p.s. I'm sure a few of my English teachers would be upset by my purposeful use of the word ain't. Even though it was used to illustrate some of the points we've been discussing.

    p.p.s. Too bad you're in Seattle. I could see us talking for hours about all kinds of cool stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    For those who actually care about it's effectiveness, I've talked about it numerous times around here. A particular letter I wrote dropped a F-Bomb in the headline and it converted 14.6% of Warriors that read the letter. I think there were about 50 or 60 sales within a couple hours.

    This was by far the best converting letter I had ever wrote by far. Like it or not, it worked, and worked really well.

    Also, when did it become okay for others to dictate the type of language others should use?

    Seriously?

    The kind of person who believes another who curses lacks a vast vocabulary sort of makes me question their intelligence. There are such things as "Power Words" and without a doubt the word F$%K is incredibly powerful. Maybe the most powerful. You don't have to like it, but it's damn effective in making a powerful statement. Powerful enough to get you to start this thread (and a bunch of comments).

    And a number of people in this thread are probably hypocrites. When you stub your toe on the corner of the coffee table do you blurt out... "Oh shuckee darns"... or do you say... "Oh F%^ing Sh^$". That's what I thought.

    Or when you are talking about your least favorite politician, what do you say? "I really don't like that guys policies". Yeah F^$#ing right!

    Listen, I know some people sound like ignorant fools with potty mouths. But if you can't see the genius in folks like Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, John Stewart, Dan Kennedy and so many others then I sort of feel sorry for ya'll.

    Heck, even Dick Cheney told some dude to "Fu%$ OFF" on the house floor.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Brown
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      Listen, I know some people sound like ignorant fools with potty mouths. But if you can't see the genius in folks like Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, John Stewart, Dan Kennedy and so many others then I sort of feel sorry for ya'll.
      WTF Mofo, you forgot to mention Bill Hicks in your rant!
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      For those who actually care about it's effectiveness, I've talked about it numerous times around here. A particular letter I wrote dropped a F-Bomb in the headline and it converted 14.6% of Warriors that read the letter. I think there were about 50 or 60 sales within a couple hours.

      This was by far the best converting letter I had ever wrote by far. Like it or not, it worked, and worked really well.

      Also, when did it become okay for others to dictate the type of language others should use?

      Seriously?

      The kind of person who believes another who curses lacks a vast vocabulary sort of makes me question their intelligence. There are such things as "Power Words" and without a doubt the word F$%K is incredibly powerful. Maybe the most powerful. You don't have to like it, but it's damn effective in making a powerful statement. Powerful enough to get you to start this thread (and a bunch of comments).

      And a number of people in this thread are probably hypocrites. When you stub your toe on the corner of the coffee table do you blurt out... "Oh shuckee darns"... or do you say... "Oh F%^ing Sh^$". That's what I thought.

      Or when you are talking about your least favorite politician, what do you say? "I really don't like that guys policies". Yeah F^$#ing right!

      Listen, I know some people sound like ignorant fools with potty mouths. But if you can't see the genius in folks like Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, John Stewart, Dan Kennedy and so many others then I sort of feel sorry for ya'll.

      Heck, even Dick Cheney told some dude to "Fu%$ OFF" on the house floor.

      I think in all due respect that there is a time and place for it. When I hit my toe on a chair you damn straight I say the F word. But in all honesty when people use it in a casual and repetitive manner in a business or social environment it makes me wonder who or what I am dealing with.

      Unfortunately, in IM and other forms of public medium we only have a few moments to convey what we are about and what we stand for to other people.

      And throwing the F word around in a lackadaisacal manner is just not conducive in portraying someone of integrity and scruples. Its just NOT.
      You can bitch and moan about it all you want and say its not fair blah, blah , blah.

      But like I said the fact of the matter is most (not all) view this to be true. And they tend to stay away from using this type of fouler than foul language in this context.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      For those who actually care about it's effectiveness, I've talked about it numerous times around here. A particular letter I wrote dropped a F-Bomb in the headline and it converted 14.6% of Warriors that read the letter. I think there were about 50 or 60 sales within a couple hours.

      This was by far the best converting letter I had ever wrote by far. Like it or not, it worked, and worked really well.
      I don't care one way or the other if you use profanity or not in your sales letters. But out of curiosity, did you split test with a "clean" version of this letter?
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  • Profile picture of the author fred67
    Originally Posted by Blase View Post

    Hi,

    This is not so much a rant as it is a question.

    I was just looking around in the WSO's and noticed
    a Warrior that is using "WTF" as his user name.

    Did I miss the memo?

    When did it become OK, to use swear words
    in copy, email subject lines, user names, and at the
    table next to me in restaurants?

    How and why did this become cool?

    Unless you are face to face with some one and know
    them very well what makes you think that swearing is OK?

    I've been in sales and marketing for for 46 years
    and I have always lived by, "when in doubt, don't".

    That applies to everything you do, write, or say.

    You will never know it, but I guarantee you are losing
    sales by going into the gutter with your words.

    Just something to think about.
    In the UK it's almost OBLIGATORY to use profanity on live TV shows. Especially the ones aimed at the younger audiences. You can see previously 'respectable' presenters struggling with the delivery, but fear of losing the job if they don't comply.

    Over here the breakdown of communities is an ongoing project. I would suggest that implanting the 'disrespect' factor in our young is a pre-determined action by our world media that definitely has an agenda.

    I have 8 children. The eldest is 39. If any of them do swear infront of me, there's an almost instant apology. Not because I demand it, but because they know I find it offensive. I'd like to think it's because subconsciously they also know that it's offensive to swear unnecessarily.

    There is a place for swearing, but general conversation isn't one of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    And a number of people in this thread are probably hypocrites. When you stub your toe on the corner of the coffee table do you blurt out... "Oh shuckee darns"... or do you say... "Oh F%^ing Sh^$". That's what I thought.
    Hi Jason,

    I'm glad you said it was only some people in this thread, because...

    I actually DO say "fiddlesticks", "son of a biscuit", "oocha-magoocha", or "God bless America". Really. But, that's because it's who I am. I have no problem with others who cuss in such situations though.

    And, yes, it probably would be kind of funny to hear me say any of yhose things.



    ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Censorship is a necessary part of a civilized society, it's just the degree of censorship that is in dispute. Anyone that says they're against all censorship hasn't thought about it much, or they have deeper problems than censorship issues. Of course, that's just my uncensored opinion.
      "Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor." - from wikipedia, but I think it's a decent definition anyway.

      In a free society, ONLY the individual should be the final determiner of what information is objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient. What I don't like about censorship is that it makes it someone else's decision what I'm allowed to know or not know.

      I think what you mean is more like politeness in company to know what you can say or not say, or knowing if what you write may or may not offend the audience. But even then, in a free society, I have the right to deliberately offend people any time I want as long as it's not slanderous or libelous.

      There's such a thing as a public social standard. And I can understand things like broadcast censorship, where you're talking about a penetrative media that is impossible to ignore or necessarily predict what may be offensive. In print, you can just put it down. Nipple slips on live TV are a different animal, according to how people reacted that one time that happened.

      Still though, I'm trying to understand how anyone can talk about "censorship" the way I understand it as a "necessary" part of society unless you mean something else.

      Knowing what to say and what not to say in mixed company is a matter of politeness, not a matter of censorship.
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  • Profile picture of the author David.M
    Boohoo.. when I read profanity in products, it turns me on.. makes my nipples hard.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      The FCC levies steep fines, but what most people don't know is that the FCC doesn't go after broadcasters for foul language UNLESS they receive complaints from the public. I've often wondered who the people are that complain.
      I recall wondering, after the Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction", what the big deal was. The shot in question lasted less than a second, was out of focus, and shot from a distance. The only way to verify that there was anything to see was to play the clip frame by frame. Which made the focus even worse...

      And yet the complaints poured in... And there hasn't been a female entertainer at a Super Bowl halftime since.

      Seems that many of the complaints were about images in the complainer's imagination, not what was on their screen.

      There are people out there who see themselves as the guardians of all that is right and good (meaning it agrees with their views) and spend hours watching TV shows in slow motion for nipple slips and upskirts. I imagine these are some of the same people who thought up playing LP's backward to find Satanic messages.

      Maybe it's like one wag said, "If it's just bare skin, it's art. If it turns me on, it's porn."

      If it's just a string of letters, it's language. If it offends you, it's profane.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        If it's just a string of letters, it's language. If it offends you, it's profane.
        If it's just a string of letters, it's language. If it offends you, it's profound !!
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  • Profile picture of the author JVManna
    I always rebound back when someone asks what "WTF" means, I say, "What's This For?"

    Joking aside, I agree with you the decorum of how people interact greatly reflects on their perception by others.
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  • Profile picture of the author futurestrategy
    why people swear, no one knows. when they get mad and irritated with themselves this is the first thing that they do this is a strange way to express their anger and emotions. Anyway without doubt it doesn't make anyone superhero.
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  • Profile picture of the author rtcj
    Great Question, not really sure what ur talking about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marakatapolis
    I would never use "curse" words in an advertisement, unless I was targeting the alternative crowd, or rappers. In person though... depends if I care who the person is. I curse like a sailor all day long, unless I'm in front of my grandma, or at a job interview.

    Maybe I'm just part of the younger generation, but curse words have never bothered me.
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  • Profile picture of the author JimmyRose
    No way I am reading 5 pages of people ranting about nothing. I have a bit of a laugh when people get their back up about such menial rubbish. It reminds me how much better it feels to take everything on board on not really care about things that don't even matter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason_V
      Originally Posted by JimmyRose View Post

      No way I am reading 5 pages of people ranting about nothing. I have a bit of a laugh when people get their back up about such menial rubbish. It reminds me how much better it feels to take everything on board on not really care about things that don't even matter.
      My sentiments exactly.

      I'm waiting for Seinfeld and gang to show up any minute now in this thread. I guess he better not work blue here though.

      :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    No way I am reading 5 pages of people ranting about nothing.
    You didn't miss much.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheDebtEliminator
    There are a few that insist on used profanity in sales

    They are limiting their market

    Best to leave it alone and make more sales

    Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author hushy
    When I was younger if you didn't call the neighbor mr. or mrs. You got a slap upside the back of the head. There was respect in the world then. I realize it is a small thing. Small things eventually erode into massive issues. Niagra falls was a small creek once.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by hushy View Post

      When I was younger if you didn't call the neighbor mr. or mrs. You got a slap upside the back of the head. There was respect in the world then. I realize it is a small thing. Small things eventually erode into massive issues. Niagra falls was a small creek once.
      Let's see-respect=hitting children? I did not know that.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

        Let's see-respect=hitting children? I did not know that.
        Greg, it was a different time. Children were not viewed as fragile jewels that needed constant coddling and protection.

        Plus, there's a huge difference between a little slap on the back of the head as a reminder to mind one's manners, and the closed-fist smackdown you imply.

        There's also a difference between delivering said reminder to a child old enough to know better, and to an infant or toddler.

        That said, you're twisting things here. My parents taught me proper manners and expected me to use them. They respected me enough to be disappointed when I didn't, and to correct my behavior. Once the correction was delivered, if it did the job, the incident was over and forgotten. Message delivered, message received, move on.

        Maybe if a few more parents used some common sense instead of trying to reason with kids not old enough to do so, and delivering "time-outs" in rooms packed with electronic toys, there would be fewer adults doing multi-year "time-outs" in jails around the country.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Greg, it was a different time. Children were not viewed as fragile jewels that needed constant coddling and protection.

          Plus, there's a huge difference between a little slap on the back of the head as a reminder to mind one's manners, and the closed-fist smackdown you imply.

          There's also a difference between delivering said reminder to a child old enough to know better, and to an infant or toddler.

          That said, you're twisting things here. My parents taught me proper manners and expected me to use them. They respected me enough to be disappointed when I didn't, and to correct my behavior. Once the correction was delivered, if it did the job, the incident was over and forgotten. Message delivered, message received, move on.

          Maybe if a few more parents used some common sense instead of trying to reason with kids not old enough to do so, and delivering "time-outs" in rooms packed with electronic toys, there would be fewer adults doing multi-year "time-outs" in jails around the country.
          Sorry John, but I'm not the one twisting things. I only said hitting; you took it to "imply" a "closed fist smackdown", but there's nothing in my words that implies that, therefore, you projected something I neither said nor meant.

          I don't view children as "fragile jewels that need constant coddling and protection", and neither do millions of parents that do a great job of raising their kids non-violently. There's a vast gulf and many options between over-protection and violence in child rearing. It's been proven by millions that wonderful, contributing children can be raised without any form of hitting. That begs the question of why some people are nostalgic for it. Maybe they just don't know or believe a viable alternative exists.

          Spanking is violence, as is slapping, or any type of hitting you pick. Just ask yourself if it would be acceptable to treat a girlfriend that way, no matter how badly she behaved. If it's assault and battery when done to an adult, why do some deem it not only acceptable but necessary when done to a child?

          The post I was responding to referred to children showing "respect" to adults out of fear, and implied that kids being fearful and therefore not calling adults by first name (horrors) was desirable and indicative of a better era. I contend that you will never know if you really have respect until the fear is removed.

          The one teacher I had in high school that gave us a choice as to whether to call him "John", or "Mr. Sorenson" got more respect than any other teacher-not just because of that-he was smart, and didn't need silly formalities to feel like he was in control of his class. He knew that we were a couple years from adulthood, and was doing more than any of the other, more authoritarian teachers to prepare us for it. Guess what-his class was one of the best behaved-the sky didn't fall for the lack of a demand for faked respect. Perhaps the biggest distinction that set him apart was that he did show us respect-what an amazing breath of fresh air that was!

          I can't join the nostalgia-fest for the time when kids kept their mouths shut out of fear, because it was a time when the paper-thin veneer of respect for adults was accompanied by a profound disrespect of young people.

          My parents (and many teachers) used violence too, and I too learned proper manners, but I would have learned better had they chosen a different way, inspiring true respect, rather than fear of violence and humiliation. The type of punishment you speak of inflicts more psychological damage than physical-no serious physical damage doesn't mean no scar. Ask any woman that's been in a relationship where the guy "just slaps me around a bit when I've really done something to deserve it".

          Like you said, it was a different time. In some ways a better time (you should have seen all the green ravines we played in that are now condos and office "parks"). In some ways a worse time-like I said my teachers were free to smack away, and I knew kids that were probably abused (way beyond the "reminders" you speak of), and speaking of such things was not done. A lot was hidden to give the appearance of respect.

          As far as your implication that permissive parenting is causing criminal behavior, I suppose that's possible, although I suspect you're just guessing-I've never seen any studies that indicate it. I despise permissive parenting, and have no respect for those that do it-it's irresponsible and a disservice to the kids and the larger society. I don't wish to argue whether violence against children or permissive parenting is worse-they are both bad.

          However, one thing I have seen is citations of numerous studies that correlate almost all violent offenders with a violent upbringing, so I seriously doubt if the crime problem can be laid at the feet of permissive parenting, since you can hardly have violent abuse co-exist with coddling.

          My point remains, and to put it in more naked terms without sarcasm, so there's no room for misinterpretation: the threat of any form of violence against kids, that sometimes results in their doing what they are told, in order to avoid punishment is not respect-far from it: it is fear. Any meaningful form of respect has to be mutual, and slapping, spanking, or any other form of hitting is not respectful, therefore whatever behavior it extracts should not be considered as showing respect.

          The only possible justification is that it's the only choice you have to avoid raising little monsters, but that's been repeatedly demonstrated to be utterly false. We are past the age when hitting kids (any form) is justified except by people who are ignorant of other options. Even then, there is no excuse for remaining ignorant with all the resources available to educate yourself. Nostalgia for the time of physically forced "respect" is ridiculous. Instead, you should join me in celebrating the positive parenting options and numerous support resources available to today's parents.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Adams
    If you don't like profanity... don't ever watch Frank Kern.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    John,
    You pretty much summed it up very well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Blase
      John,

      This is way off the topic, but I had to respond.

      Do you know what your problem is?
      You have way to much common sense.

      You made me think of my grandmother when
      I read your post. She didn't need to cuff you
      on the back of the head.

      She would just give you the "look" and every now
      and then she would say, "children do not speak
      unless they are spoken to".

      I learned to show respect to all adults from her.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Blase View Post

        John,

        This is way off the topic, but I had to respond.

        Do you know what your problem is?
        You have way to much common sense.

        You made me think of my grandmother when
        I read your post. She didn't need to cuff you
        on the back of the head.

        She would just give you the "look" and every now
        and then she would say, "children do not speak
        unless they are spoken to".

        I learned to show respect to all adults from her.
        Thanks...

        I saw a young mother I admired last night. I was sitting in the car while my wife ran into the store to pick up a few things. This woman looked like she might be in her early to mid-twenties, and had three young children. One of them started in begging for some item, getting louder and louder. She gave that kid "the look" and it was like she flipped a switch. That kid shut up, settled down and walked calmly the rest of the way to the store.
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by Blase View Post

        John,

        This is way off the topic, but I had to respond.

        Do you know what your problem is?
        You have way to much common sense.

        You made me think of my grandmother when
        I read your post. She didn't need to cuff you
        on the back of the head.

        She would just give you the "look" and every now
        and then she would say, "children do not speak
        unless they are spoken to".

        I learned to show respect to all adults from her.
        So ask yourself why "the look" was so effective. Are you implying that you were so fearful that you dare not defy her? Oh what a wonderful time that must have been, when adults ruled with an iron fist and kids were terrified to make a peep.

        Not being allowed to speak unless spoken to is fear and deference, not respect. I say to you as I did to John, respect that isn't mutual is meaningless, especially if enforced by fear-it's totally misnamed, and it's a poor way to treat humans of any age.

        I doubt your grandmother had too many rewarding conversations with kids, since it's almost impossible to have a meaningful relationship with someone you've put into an extreme one-down position. People who demand that type of brown-nosery, regardless whether it's from kids, the gender you think is inferior, a race or nationality, have some issues, and are just choking off the possibility of a true, mutually respectful and rewarding relationship. I find it unfortunate that she instilled her attitude toward children in you, and you still cling to it, since it shows a profound disrespect of children. It's striking that although she degraded you by forbidding you from speaking your mind, you speak of it as if it was a wonderful thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hamza
    We are on a time where a lot of people think that it's OK to be your self even if you are not gonna respect others, which is wrong,

    Using such words on sales pages and titles is only gonna make people get a bad impression about you ... so why would you do it ?

    God Bless
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Greg, on this we can agree...

      I don't wish to argue whether violence against children or permissive parenting is worse-they are both bad.
      I think where we part company is in how we define the word "violence".

      If I'm reading you correctly (obviously not a sure bet), you hold a tap or light slap on the back of the head, a swat on the bottom, a serious whupping with a belt and a closed-fist punch as equivalent.

      I don't see it that way. Maybe it's because, as a child, once I was old enough to reason with physical punishment was very rare, and never as a reaction in anger. That light tap, elbow, nudge, whatever, was enough.

      Another thing I can agree with you on - the idea of raising my hand to my wife is inconceivable. I can't even picture it in my head.

      I don't think my attitude is nostalgia. It's more "that's how I was raised, and I turned out fine."

      I don't think we're ever going to really see eye to eye on this. Our definitions just don't match up.

      As far as research goes, researchers are humans (most of them anyway). Many of them hold views similar to yours, and in doing their studies, they very naturally see evidence that coincides with their idea of how the world works.

      Edit:

      Greg, I just read your response to Blase. You seem to have the notion that the childhood we describe was one long persecution that we were lucky to survive. That we lived in constant fear of being beaten, and that our elders were harsh kennel masters teaching us our place.

      It just wasn't so.

      For every time I acted out enough to earn a physical punishment (and the transgression had to be pretty serious), there were ten times where I spent serious quality time with my parents and grandparents. For example, my parents took my brother and me to restaurants that rarely saw children. We learned how to function in an adult environment, and as long as we respected the surroundings, a good time was had by all.

      Contrast that with the scene you see in many "family" restaurants these days. Kids screaming and running wild, interfering with the servers, making conversation impossible - all while Mommy and Daddy look on. Either not wanting to possibly damage little Junior's fragile self esteem, or more likely afraid someone who views physical correction as child abuse will call the authorities...
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Greg, on this we can agree...

        I think where we part company is in how we define the word "violence".

        If I'm reading you correctly (obviously not a sure bet), you hold a tap or light slap on the back of the head, a swat on the bottom, a serious whupping with a belt and a closed-fist punch as equivalent.

        I don't see it that way. Maybe it's because, as a child, once I was old enough to reason with physical punishment was very rare, and never as a reaction in anger. That light tap, elbow, nudge, whatever, was enough.

        Another thing I can agree with you on - the idea of raising my hand to my wife is inconceivable. I can't even picture it in my head.

        I don't think my attitude is nostalgia. It's more "that's how I was raised, and I turned out fine."

        I don't think we're ever going to really see eye to eye on this. Our definitions just don't match up.

        As far as research goes, researchers are humans (most of them anyway). Many of them hold views similar to yours, and in doing their studies, they very naturally see evidence that coincides with their idea of how the world works.

        Edit:

        Greg, I just read your response to Blase. You seem to have the notion that the childhood we describe was one long persecution that we were lucky to survive. That we lived in constant fear of being beaten, and that our elders were harsh kennel masters teaching us our place.

        It just wasn't so.

        For every time I acted out enough to earn a physical punishment (and the transgression had to be pretty serious), there were ten times where I spent serious quality time with my parents and grandparents. For example, my parents took my brother and me to restaurants that rarely saw children. We learned how to function in an adult environment, and as long as we respected the surroundings, a good time was had by all.

        Contrast that with the scene you see in many "family" restaurants these days. Kids screaming and running wild, interfering with the servers, making conversation impossible - all while Mommy and Daddy look on. Either not wanting to possibly damage little Junior's fragile self esteem, or more likely afraid someone who views physical correction as child abuse will call the authorities...

        Sorry I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing that would make this easier to read. I actually didn't mean to imply that your life was a living hell, but just to respond to the fact that you and several others are implying that children of today ain't got no respect compared to the past because we no longer use force or the threat of it to keep them in check.

        In Blase's case, he described being conditioned to respond to "the look". I can't imagine what he meant if not that he was too scared to risk the carrying out of the threat implicit in that "look". He's convinced himself to admire that, as if the absence of that level of fear is crippling modern parenting. Presumably at some point a demonstration that was pretty ugly was needed to instill the level of fear to where a mere "look" would stop him in his tracks-the implication of impressive levels of fear is unmistakable.

        If I read it right, my sarcasm was appropriate imo, especially in light of his grandmother's stock philosophy that kids shouldn't speak unless spoken to. That's pretty anti-child, and insults their intelligence and personhood. That old school, "as long as they are dependent, children have no rights" type of thinking is not a cure for social ills-it's offensive to anyone that's in touch with what it's like to be young.

        The type of discipline (often called "positive discipline) that I am referring to when I speak of children being raised well and responsibly without violence couldn't possibly result in the type of behavior you describe in the family restaurant scene. Actually kids that are hit are far more likely to act out like that in a place where they know the threat is removed. So, in a way, I agree that part of the cause of the acting out is the social pressure not to hit, but not because hitting is good-it's precisely because it doesn't teach true respect-just fear. When the fear is suddenly removed, all hell breaks loose, revealing exactly how little respect was learned by being hit. Kids that have respect don't need something hanging over their heads to make them behave well.

        BTW, I've seen that type of behavior change in one or two weeks with expert advice taken by parents willing to try a new, non-violent approach, and who were previously at their wit's end. One of the coolest experiences of my life was a parenting class taught by a wonderful grandpa who was an expert in positive discipline-it changed things for my step-parenting, until the mom fell back into her permissive patterns, defeating all my attempts to continue the healthier patterns we'd learned. Others in the class that were authoritarian in their approach and had all sorts of problems made amazing changes-the stuff really works-makes slapping obsolete.

        Kids are remarkably flexible and responsive if we utilize best practices with them. Like other areas of human life advances are apparent to those who aren't stuck in rosy visions of a Norman Rockwell past that never was. Nostalgia for the past in parenting makes no more sense than nostalgia for the time when dentistry used whiskey as a pain killer, and wood for false teeth. It's sensible to stop fighting progress.

        BTW, I do not equate beatings with spankings, "light slaps", or "taps". But neither do I have 2 definitions for violence depending on how old the victom is. You find raising your hand to your wife inconceivable, presumably because it's violence. Obviously punching is massively worse than slapping, swatting etc, but I presume a "light slap on the back of the head" would still be unacceptable, precisely because "mild" violence against a woman is still violence (plus they can hit back). (I also define both Lamborginis and Fords as cars, but I hardly equate them)

        Why a different standard for kids? I suggest it's because we can't face admitting to "violence", but acceptance of the act is culturally ingrained. We were brainwashed to accept it because our role models engaged in it, we repeat it, and do all kinds of mental gymnastics to rationalize it (such as denying that it's violence). By definition, whatever you find acceptable to do to kids isn't really violence, just like the Dick Cheney gang redefined torture to exclude whatever horrors we want to perpetrate (obviously an extreme example-but a similar self-justification process-redefining words to make you feel better about whatever you're doing-or make a legal argument for it).

        I partially agree with your analysis that our disagreement is caused by differing definitions of violence, although imo it goes deeper, and I still contend that you partake of the majority view of children which, though it's improving, I think still disrespects them. In other words, clinging to the course, brutish tools of force as needed forms of control stems from a lack of faith in the capability of kids to learn good behavior without fear. It's an understandable, conditioned belief that is nonetheless ill-founded.

        Now, to address your dismissal of the reams of evidence showing violent offenders to be overwhelmingly victoms of violence themselves, as merely the result of researchers' bias, I can only assume you got carried away with the spirit of arguing. You are obviously an educated person, and couldn't possibly be unaware of the huge body of evidence of the hideous prevalence of abuse in the early lives of violent offenders. It's been studied and reported so widely that the question of bias can't be taken seriously as discrediting the vast body of case studies-they can't all be torturing the truth. If bias was at issue, where are the studies debunking the "myth" of abuse?

        More generally, the fact that people tend to repeat what was done to them is a truism anyone who takes a casual look at history, or knows a bit of psychology, or even has any experience observing extended families of 2 or more generations is quite aware of.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Now, to address your dismissal of the reams of evidence showing violent offenders to be overwhelmingly victims of violence themselves, as merely the result of researchers' bias, I can only assume you got carried away with the spirit of arguing. You are obviously an educated person, and couldn't possibly be unaware of the huge body of evidence of the hideous prevalence of abuse in the early lives of violent offenders. It's been studied and reported so widely that the question of bias can't be taken seriously as discrediting the vast body of case studies-they can't all be torturing the truth. If bias was at issue, where are the studies debunking the "myth" of abuse?

          More generally, the fact that people tend to repeat what was done to them is a truism anyone who takes a casual look at history, or knows a bit of psychology, or even has any experience observing extended families of 2 or more generations is quite aware of.
          Here again, we have different definitions...

          There's a big difference between a swat on the bottom and the kind of beatings I hear about from some of my wife's cousins who have chosen to go into social work. And I'll agree that many wife-beaters learned to do so by watching their mothers accept getting smacked around.

          As far as locating the studies debunking abuse, the folks who do these kinds of studies mostly don't go looking for any evidence that contradicts what they are already absolutely certain of. It just doesn't occur to them to look. After hearing some of the stories about the extremes, I'm not sure I can fault them...

          I can't speak for Blase, but I'm of the opinion that there are times when children should be seen and not heard. As a small child, I was taught (without corporal punishment) when those times were. If I chose to make my presence felt anyway, and a verbal warning or 'the look' didn't work, then there were consequences to my choice - immediate and often stung. At which point, that particular incident became history. As I got older, those 'seen and not heard' times became fewer, until I was old enough to participate fully.

          If you can teach kids to mind their manners and behave without any type of physical correction, more power to you.

          But please don't dismiss respect for the way I was raised as the nostalgic yearning for a Norman Rockwell past that never was. If you look at those days, you'll also see far less drug abuse, teen pregnancy and gang violence. It wasn't all bad.
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          • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Here again, we have different definitions...

            There's a big difference between a swat on the bottom and the kind of beatings I hear about from some of my wife's cousins who have chosen to go into social work. And I'll agree that many wife-beaters learned to do so by watching their mothers accept getting smacked around.

            As far as locating the studies debunking abuse, the folks who do these kinds of studies mostly don't go looking for any evidence that contradicts what they are already absolutely certain of. It just doesn't occur to them to look. After hearing some of the stories about the extremes, I'm not sure I can fault them...

            I can't speak for Blase, but I'm of the opinion that there are times when children should be seen and not heard. As a small child, I was taught (without corporal punishment) when those times were. If I chose to make my presence felt anyway, and a verbal warning or 'the look' didn't work, then there were consequences to my choice - immediate and often stung. At which point, that particular incident became history. As I got older, those 'seen and not heard' times became fewer, until I was old enough to participate fully.

            If you can teach kids to mind their manners and behave without any type of physical correction, more power to you.

            But please don't dismiss respect for the way I was raised as the nostalgic yearning for a Norman Rockwell past that never was. If you look at those days, you'll also see far less drug abuse, teen pregnancy and gang violence. It wasn't all bad.
            I'm not sure the difference in definitions you allude to exists in this case. My only problem with your definition of violence is that it changes for kids. I agree about the vast difference in levels and intensity of violence-but any physical punishment qualifies in my mind-just as it does in yours, when applied to adults. I clearly don't equate my getting slapped or spanked with being burned with cigarettes, beaten with sticks, etc. My mom is now my best friend, and she used to slap me around, spank etc, now and then. I doubt I'd have forgiven her for cigarette burns, or broken bones.

            Nor am I saying that people who get physically "corrected" the way you approve are going to become killers. They are more likely to simply repeat the pattern-or have anger issues with the gender most of the punishments came from. They might pass on a milder form of what they experienced, or in my case, only slip up a couple times in my 6 year co-parenting career, since I worked hard to give better than I got.

            I never hit my stepson, but I did roughly haul him off to his room on at least a couple occasions-in anger, which is another reason for not using violence-it's rare to find a parent so saintly that they can hit (slap, swat, grab, yank, or whatever term you want), with pure motives and no anger, and none of us are as controlled as we imagine in that state. We're also using the child as an outlet for our frustration, while telling ourselves it's for the child's benefit-while, if we reflect honestly, in the back of our minds is probably a hint of the suggestion that he brought it on himself, and is getting what he deserves. "Correction" is often a euphemism for punishment. Children also pick up on the anger and it's damaging because it's frightening to have your giant, physically powerful parent do anything to you in anger-more psychologically harmful than physical.

            One of the great things I learned in parenting class was that teaching/learning rarely occur in the heat of anger-I learned to give myself a time-out when I wasn't calm, and the child a time-out when he wasn't. The time-out wasn't a wishy washy version of physical punishment-it wasn't punishment at all-I'm sure people misuse it as such though. It's real value is in letting feelings cool so reason can resurface.

            Then I could calmly lay down the guidelines, or hand out consequences when everyone was cool and collected. I suspect most of the physical "corrections" would never take place if the parent waited until they were calm to take corrective action. But to even notice I had options, I needed a class that taught me more effective, resourceful ways of getting my child to co-operate. One of the revelations I got from it was that children naturally want to be co-operative, and live in a loving, peaceful, happy home, but need guidance as to how to manage themselves, and contribute.

            I had to stop looking at my child as an adversary bent on undermining me, which made a world of difference. I learned tools like calmly giving natural and logical consequences, which is a whole different mindset than the tradition of "retaliatory actions" my parent's generation used. It was also invaluable to have a weekly family meeting, when the tone for the following week was set, and the consequences of any misbehavior that has been a problem were not only laid out, but agreed on. Also, it was a chance for everyone including the child to speak about any upsets or frustrations; parents aren't perfect and some thoughtless thing I did may have caused hurt feelings that led to misbehavior from the child. He felt respected, as we took his concerns seriously and if appropriate, agreed to change our own behavior-such as spending more quality time with him.

            Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that the child was running things-know that we didn't need his agreement, and didn't change our own behavior unless we thought it apropriate. But his agreement wasn't hard to get, and having it made him feel respected, and almost magically more cooperative. We also did give him a say in his consequences (do you want to give up "X, or Y or Z" privilege for the "A" form of bad behavior?) Do you think you would get better behavior from a child that feels he was part of the process of deciding what his consequences are? Absolutely-night and day!!!!-infinitely better than the sullen capitulation slapping got from me and kids I grew up with. When he misbehaved, reminding him of what he'd agreed to, while calmly enforcing the consequence made sure it only happened once, and without trauma, or him feeling devalued or discounted. Anyone can take advantage of that type of peaceful parenting option, once they let go of the ego-attachment to the ineffective, disrespectful methods of the past. Since I know such things are possible, it takes away any justification in my mind for a less respectful, while at the same time, less effective method of parenting; tradition be damned.

            As far as the "violence begets violence" issue, I don't understand why you're still implying that the available data on the early lives of violent offenders is restricted to studies by folks with an axe to grind in favor of a particular conclusion. That simply isn't true-plenty of it comes from interviews conducted by hard-nosed law enforcement people, from prison guards all the way up to FBI profilers. I'm not claiming it's universal, but the variety of data from all kinds of sources suggests (unsurprisingly), that the vast majority of violent offenders of all stripes are victims of childhood violence. The body of evidence as far too huge and varied to pretend it's all coming from folks who are trying to prove it's "nurture" not "nature" that's to blame. The data confirms what logic would clearly suggest-violent childhoods produce disturbed, violent adults.

            I'm sure there were many laudable things, worthy of nostalgia about how you were raised, but being swatted imo isn't among them. I think it sounds like your overall happy childhood has you convinced that everything your parents did must be superior-especially in contrast to the sorry excuse for parenting you witness at the mall. Parents aren't perfect-they always do some things poorly, and we have progressed over time.

            Part of my reason for the nostalgia remark is I was responding to an overall tone among several people's posts, implying or stating that things used to be better, when kids knew their place and were more scared of adults. One such post used the phrase "there was respect in the world", with the clear implication that it's gone because people don't hit their kids for not calling the neighbor "Mr". Nobody bothered about the fact that slapping hardly shows respect, so apparently it's only supposed to go one way-which as I said, is an illusion-one way respect is fear in disguise. Could you get much more dreamy/nostalgic than a sweeping comment like "respect in the world"?

            I see an overall undertone of disrespect for kids running through several posts; several linked the supposed downward trend with the lack of fear of physical punishment, including your comments about the sad examples with screaming kids running wild in the restaurant. I actually think that a lot of us have a bit of unresolved hostility to kids, and I always like to speak up on their behalf, even though they drive me crazy sometimes too.
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