Question for Women Warriors...

My teen daughters use "dude" for males and females. It was weird to hear this at first, but I'm used to it now. I'm not to crazy about using the word in business, though. Just me.

Hehe, I think that is the case, I spent a bit of time around some Americans and now I can't get dude out my head . Dam that word, it is used so much and can be used in so many places it's just used .

Another case where "dude" can be used .

Im telling you, this word can be used everywhere .

Sure, honey. Right after I add a little anti-freeze for flavoring

Chasing you before you've even finished that sentence...hehehehhe.

I received the exact same email, it was "DUDE" that was in the subject line, I didn't take offence to it personally because within context he is a very, very young marketer, I think 18 or 19 years of age.

So taking that into consideration it makes sense. He's also trying to experiment with different subject lines outside the bounds of "Go Go Go" or "5 Left So Get Yours Now" which I think is great and for someone his age, shows ingenuity.

And you state you live in Texas!....

Man...you got balls...

Just keep on runin'

Cuz my truck tires are smoken' right behind ya...




I got ya beer...:p

Singing:

"Throw another log on the fire, cook me up some bacon and some beans and come and tell me why you're leaving me."

DUDE, you're an asstard.

ETA: I think everyone needs to relax where it comes to political correctness.

Oh you asking for a fight!!! Never T women off buddy...we're far cleverer at getting our own back! lol

yeah...you better run! This rolling pin in my hand is just itching to hit something! :p

seriously though...I delete those emails. Sorry, but "dude" should not be a way to address anyone in business...

You better run fast

None of this bothers me, although the 'crack' thing might have made me feel mildly uneasy if I hadn't become blind to it so quickly due so many people using it. Being called 'Dude' doesn't ruffle me either, but the solitary use of the word as an e-mail subject line with nothing to explain the contents would probably have seen it deleted unread.

I'm pretty easy going really, or at least I thought I was until I saw one particular thread title in the WSO forum which I found so offensive that just looking at it made me feel unclean. I'm not going to say which one it was but it certainly didn't appeal to me enough to open it. Maybe it's 'just' a woman thing or maybe it's just me.

Whilst I get that some language is inclusive (in the UK we use guys the same way as I suspect dude is used in the USA) wouldn't it be fantastic if gender was treated with respect.

Women make up the majority population and as far as i know we are not a new species, so why is it hard to be sensitive to the needs of your audience?

Come on it's time to make a little more effort - trust me it will be appreciated and you'll see the differnce on the bottom line.

Oh, maybe it is used for FRIEND - non-gender-specific...I guess I just associate it with men. But then, I'm not British or Australian, so what do I know?

Dennis, I think a better question is "why not?" It seems a bit strange nowadays to differentiate genders when describing professions. Would you call someone a doctress, for example?

I'm of the generation that still feels a pang of guilt using "he" as a general term for people, but it feels cumbersome to always write "he or she" and "his or her". And reverting to the politically (if not grammatically) correct "their" to avoid giving any possible offence, isn't ideal. It would be helpful to have a universally recognized "neutral" term.

Having said all that, it still grates to see a woman described as a "blond" or a man as "blonde". But then I was probably French in a previous life.


Frank

That's not the same thing. I would be highly offended if someone used "Sweetheart" or "Babe" in a subject line. What if the subject line "Sweetheart" or "Babe" was used for YOU too? (Those terms aren't reserved for women only ya know.) The terms "Sweetheart" or "Babe" can be taken as condescending pejoratives (if you don't know the sender). Even though I'm not crazy about it (my age is showing), "Dude" is more akin to "Guy" or "Gal" - innocuous.

It doesn't bother me - sometimes my own husband calls me "dude". I call him Beeotch.

Wendy

Thanks everyone for your excellent feedback. Lots of very interesting points of view here.

After reading them all, I guess one point that really stands out for me is that women strived for years to get recognized, and now we're going the other way, allowing our gender to be "watered down" by the attitudes I read here that are becoming so widely accepted.

When I was in journalism college, the issue first came up for me about using he/she and the problems it presented to be politically correct. And as someone stated here, many people resort to "their" to accommodate both genders. This makes a lot of sense, actually, because you really are talking to both.

And then came the salutations and Ms was introduced so that women weren't distinguished from married and single... again, to separate us from the men.

Being British, I am aware of many friendly terms they use - like "mate". And then, "Ducks" , "Bird" and "Love" are a few that irked my mother, yet I found them to be rather endearing.

Certainly, nationality has a lot to do with word choice and meanings. Mate never bothered me, perhaps because of my British heritage.

In IM, there is that sense of being "left out" - the boys over there and the girls over here - and the girls can join if they want, but they won't have much influence. That's the impression I get, anyway. Women are insignificant to the mix.

This isn't something that I've been harboring for years, although it does remind me of my youth, hoping to join in my brother's baseball games, only to be shoved into the outfield where nothing much ever happened.

I was reminded of that by reading these responses. Initially, the thread resulted from the recent emails I've received, addressed to "Hey guys" and "Hey dude" and especially this last one that used DUDE in the subject line.

As some of you have already pointed out, this would not inspire someone to read your email simply because it doesn't give any info about why the recipient should open it. And as someone else said, it was headed for the trash bin before I even opened it. And that's when I thought, what do other women Warriors think about this?

Oh, and for the person who said that we're part of the Warrior clan here, a male term, let's not forget the Amazon Warrior Women. Or were they just fictional?

Women have come a long way and while I don't intend to take a stand on it here, I think it's important that marketers of both genders consider their terminology in their marketing, unless they are marketing to men specifically. That would mean, offering something that only men would care about.

In the meantime, I really like Valerie's idea... an IM membership site for women. Wonder if it would fly, or do we work better when we have the male influence to stir us up?

and laurenceh:
There is a difference between a male reference as all-encompassing and one with sexual overtones. They are two separate issues.

Love your humor, gals! heehee.

Sylvia

I only find it annoying when the JV/Affiliate incentives are all obviously targetting the male JV's. I mean, I just really don't care about getting an XBox360 or a huge television. Sorry. How about a $500 Amazon gift card. Or at least a car I can turn around and sell :p

But it does irk me a little to see the JV/Affiliate copy that goes out obviously targeting the guys. I guess they have a reason, though. Watching JV leaderboards you see mostly guys.

Believe it... there IS an "old boys club" and likely always will be. Perhaps it's not as evident to you because you are a guy (unless Steve is short for a girl's name) and might have become desensitized to it. Most men I've met are totally unaware of it or are in denial. As a woman who's been around many, many years in too many work and leisure environments to mention, I can tell you most assuredly that it does exist just as it always has... and probably always will.

Turning all references to humans in the masculine will guarantee it.

So here's a question...

Why not make references feminine instead? How would men feel about being gradually made transparent?

As you state...
But how often does that happen? Not often, I guarantee you.

How would you feel if all your mail was referenced to "she"? Are you honestly not bothered by that? But then, you might not be, since men have not gone through the same struggles for acceptance and recognition that women have done over the years.

I had not intended to make this a political issue, so this will be my last reference to it.

Sylvia

Umm... I'm afraid to say anything else because I'm afraid of what you might say... uh, I mean... "Hi! This is Chris and you have reached my Warrior Forum post. I'm afraid I'm not available to take your post right now but if you leave me your name and Warrior Forum ID, I will return your post as soon as possible. Thanks and you have a great whatever it is wherever you are!" Whooo!

It has been interesting reading some of the posts in this thread. I am a woman, living in the UK and a baby boomer. I dont use the term 'dude' ever and am unlikely to.

I try not to focus on being "politically correct" what ever that means. As a former social worker I worked in an arena where many of the things we did for our clients were considered to be "politically correct" My experience was that people who use that term usually used it as a form of dismissal - usually because they were not affected by the thing they decided was politically correct.

Maybe it's my age, but I think generic ways of addressing people could be considered disrespectful by some. As I am not 20 I don't want to be addressed as if I am. I agree with one of the previous posts where they did not think it was appropriate to use language that could not be considered business like - which if you are an internet marketer that is what it is.

I also understand that for some young people they may not understand why some of us older people may want more formality as that is not what they are used to.

This is a difficult one, and I have not worked it out yet! How do you build the know like and trust if you immediately alienate people with your subject line?

Lorraine

This thread has opened my eyes considerably.

I live in Wales in the UK and 'Dude' is not in the vocabulary.

Only once have I been addressed as 'Dude' in all my years on the Internet and I thought that I was being derided. If you are a man and you were to address another man as 'Dude' in my part of Wales, then you might experience a bruised face, or perhaps worse... Ok, if you are a woman, then you'll get away with it.

Welsh men are very understanding where women are concerned unless they play rugby better than we can!

This thread just shows how careful one needs to be when marketing to other cultures, regardless of how similar the language might be.

Jeff.

Good Lord Sara, You have been brainwashed haven't you! Come visit your sisters more often ; )

Nothing 'natural' about egoism - marketing men have the choice to over-ride the testosterone raging around their systems and their under-developed hippocampus! ; )

Had to think about this one. Realized I don't open any emails that have the words

dude, guy, babe, gal, chick
in-your-face or lewd/profanity or suggestive type subject lines
did you get this
just in case you didn't see this
only XXX days/hours/minutes left
don't miss out
oops...sent the wrong ...(whatever)
...and a few other phrases

Clearly, there are a lot of unopened emails. My choice and I exercise it.

More than one of those titles from a list owner - and I open one email long enough to unsubscribe.

It's a matter of setting your personal boundaries. I don't control what others choose to use for their subject lines - but I do control what I open and read.

kay

Neither do I. From my understanding of boot camp, it's kind of like an introductory program for recruits into the military. Back when, it would have been relevant to males before females were in the military, but it doesn't say "male" to me.

Oh, and BTW Steve, just to clarify a point... you were the one that mentioned "old boys' club".

But regardless of whether or not there is one, obviously some women have broken through into the male dominated business world and become quite successful. Interesting to note that your mother has an all-female staff. Why might that be?

The question remains: does using male-oriented subject lines and salutations lose you clients and leads? From some of the answers here, it would appear that it would.

The next question is: is that loss sufficient enough to make you change your marketing approach, especially in your email campaigns, so that they are less male-targeted, assuming that your offer is suited to both genders.

On the other side of the coin, would women marketers get more sales and leads if they began using male-targeted subject lines and salutations, again assuming that the offer is suited to men, or would it alienate their female recipients?

Sylvia

Good question, TerrieS. I was wondering the same thing myself. But if they're here to learn something, it could be good that their curiosity got the better of them.

Sylvia

HEY, we're naturally curious, and want to see what you gals are up to. 8-)

I've seen worse. HEY, I offered a suggestion. I CAN understand how you gals can be upset at something affecting like 20% of your year though.

Steve

Thank you for your extensive input, Denise.

It is important to consider far more than men/women - and while this is a little off topic, I just want to respond to your comment.

I used to volunteer with a local organization, then named the "... Mentally Retarded Association". That is such a negative and insulting term today. It took me a bit of time to get used to not using that expression and through the various changes it has gone through, I'm unsure now what was the final term. The latest title for the organization is "Community Living", removing the term from the name entirely. However, we still hear the expression used to reference someone who is a bit of an idiot - or not. Some American politician used the term recently, and then had to apologize extensively. Can he ever recover? Who knows. It depends on how forgiving people are.

The world has changed considerably... we now accept people of all races, colors and creeds... religion is still a bit rocky though. The handicapped no longer have to hide behind closed doors.

And... women began to move to the forefront back in the '20s. I don't think we should lose the ground we've established by ignoring how the English language insists on merging us with the opposite sex.

Mergers are good, but not always.

Sylvia

I must confess that when I see "dude" in the subject, I automatically assume it is from a younger marketer, so I am already tainted a bit before I even read it, didn't really think of it as good or bad, just a knee-jerk reaction.

On a side note, I have also been in IT for a long time, all guys, I am the only gal, but before that I bartended to pay my bills, also mostly guys so not strange for me.

However, at one of the larger corporate business I contracted at some years ago, there was a very pleasant fellow, Bill that arrived as myself usually quite early, around 6. He was a few years older than I, but always said, "Good morning, Ladies!" to me and the other gals as we got into the elevator. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I always gave him a big smile and said, "Well, good morning to you, too, William."

One of the women apparently was offended and complained to HR. He was warned and did not do again. Well, one morning he "slipped" and said it again, just habit, was what I was thinking...

Well, over 25 years at that place and he was let go. I am sure there were more details, not my business, however I found it very sad, very sad indeed. I guess we are not even allowed to be polite anymore.

Just not right.
-she

Well the word Dude... I use it (I don't know why...) occasionally. And often find myself calling my kids "dude" (yes, girl as well as boys), so being called Dude doesn't worry me.

Mind you... that's possibly WHY I call people dude now??

I do realize most IM people are men, but it's never really worried me, as most stuff I've done has been in at least semi-male dominated fields (my last job I was the only female in my department with about 10 guys, so I got used to it).

Such targeting could be accomplished by setting up one opt-in page for women only and one for men only. The problem would be ensuring that the visitors sign up to the right list.

Maybe if you add something to your squeeze page that would specify "women" or "men" only - perhaps a freebie that only one sex would want. Like, a report on women's health on the women's page and a report on men's health issues on a men's squeeze page. On each page, indicate "men, sign up here" leading to the men's page and "women, sign up here" leading to the women's page.

But then, that would create significantly more work.

Far easier is to have them choose sex on the opt-in form as a prerequisite to submit. Then, filter out only males/females for specific targeted mailings.

See, there is a way, if the marketer is willing. It depends on the product being sold. Otherwise, simply addressing them by their first name (as they provide on the opt-in form) would suffice to a large degree, especially when the product is aimed at a generic audience.

I just received another email today, "Hey, guys!" Does he not know me? I've been on his list for some time now. He concludes with "I appreciate you." REElly! :rolleyes:

I might have said this earlier in this thread, but if I get email addressed to anyone but me by name, I zap it without reading - UNLESS I happen to spot something familiar.

How many readers do you think those marketers are missing? A lot, I bet.

Sylvia

Quite true. I'm sure it is not intentional. Perhaps they need to have it pointed out to them, otherwise they're not likely to think of it.

Many years ago, I worked for an association that made me realize that my language was offending some people - clients of that association, for example. I go out of my way now to avoid calling anyone retarded. But it's how we talked back in the 60s.

Sylvia

You're probably right, Fire3fly. Maybe I should change the title to something like, "Male marketers, are you sure you aren't offending women? just to get them to read this thread.

They are a curious bunch, you know. Although it's addressed to Warrior Women, several men have entered this forbidden territory, throwing all caution to the wind. And some even got bit!

Sylvia

Lance K
That's funny!

Shawn,
Imagine if we adopted the phrase, "Hey Gals!" when attempting to address male and female readers. It'd be interesting to see the response from the male recipients.

One thing about the Forum is that we can call everyone Warriors, regardless of gender. And, according to my trusty dictionary, it's non-gender.

Sylvia

I can't exactly say that I'm offended, necessarily. It just tweaks me the wrong way. Once or twice, I let it pass, but as I see an increasing number of people using it, I just started thinking - what's going on in THEIR minds.

Obviously, they do not really think about the true meaning of the expression but simply use it because it's the new catch term everyone seems to be adopting.

I suppose in time it will go the way of other expressions from the '60s - yuppies, for example.

If you really think about it, it could be a term of endearment -

When I travelled back to England in the late 60s, I felt quite 'welcomed' when the bus conductor called me, "love" and "ducks". My mother was offended, though, because she felt he was being way too familiar.

Perhaps Dude is used with the same intention. Still, not quite proper in business, I don't think, unless it's someone you know.

Sylvia