A Tip To Save Up To 50% Off Any WSO You're Thinking About Purchasing

by BIG Mike Banned
259 replies
Rumor has it that Mike Lantz over at WarriorPlus.com has revised his "WSO of the Day" program to now be the "WP of the Day" program.

For WSO's he selects, WarriorPlus.com will JV with the seller to feature an additional discount on top of what was already offered (although this does violate the WF rules since the lower price is publicly available through WarriorPlus.com, which means the original WSO was priced higher than the lowest publicly available price )

So before you buy that latest WSO, be sure to get a commitment from the seller to refund the difference to you if he or she does run this WP deal. Better yet, don't buy any WSO's at all until you see them run as a WP of the Day offer - that will ensure you save more money than ever.

Sorry - a friend of mine is getting PM spam from WarriorPlus.com (because they chose to run a WSO through them), announcing this and I was surprised, not to mention a bit pissed off (which also begs the question why the WP service is allowed to bulk PM WF members at all).

If I were to buy a WSO only to find the price reduced by as much as 50% a day or two later, I'd be asking for a refund or doing a chargeback in a heartbeat. I'd feel screwed over to no end if I was mislead to believe by the Warrior Forum that these are the lowest prices available only to turn around and see that the WarriorPlus.com site can get me a better deal every time.

Now, I don't see any way in which the WF or it's members benefit from this - I only see that it benefits Mike Lantz in terms of his commission. I've got nothing against Mike, other than him referring to me as a complainer, but I do not, for the life of me, understand why this is even necessary to allow.

There is absolutely no need for this and no benefit to anyone else other than to create even more confusion over the WSO forum.

I realize that this thread breaks rule #1, so I'll apologize in advance - but I also think it's an issue that does impact every member and sets the stage for others to start doing similar things.
#50% #purchasing #save #thinking #tip #wso
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Personally I enjoy many things about warrior plus and have no gripe with anything that helps Allen. It would be nice if Allen would weigh in here and settle this once and for all.

    George Wright
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      Personally I enjoy many things about warrior plus and have no gripe with anything that helps Allen. It would be nice if Allen would weigh in here and settle this once and for all.

      George Wright
      Me too...but I don't see Allen getting a piece of this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I realize that this thread breaks rule #1
      No. It doesn't.

      Rule #1 is about people and companies, not practices or products. If we keep that in mind, things get easier for everyone.


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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Mike,

    Apols...

    Steve
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    Not promoting right now

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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

      Mike,

      Don't you occasionally drop your prices here, too...?

      I'm sure I've seen some *bots on offer for far less than a previous WSO price.

      ???

      Steve
      No, you haven't...
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        No, you haven't...
        OK, sorry Mike. Damn me and your Ouzo.



        Steve
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        Not promoting right now

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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          It would be nice if Allen would weigh in here and settle this once and for all.
          Doesn't the fact that he has allowed it for as long as he has tell us that it's settled in Allen's mind?

          I don't use Mike's service for my WSOs but I have to admit that I've bought several WSOs that I would not have ordinarily bought without the deal of the day.

          I don't know about anyone else but I don't wait for a deal. If I like a WSO and feel I can use it, I buy it right then. The only ones that I've bought through the deal of the day are those that were marginal for me and I would not have bought otherwise.

          Does Mike send PMs to everyone? I never started getting them until I signed up on his site so I thought it was only people who showed interest in what he had to offer.

          Tina
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

            Doesn't the fact that he has allowed it for as long as he has tell us that it's settled in Allen's mind?
            No, not really - Allen and I exchanged PM's over this a few weeks ago (which is why the "WSO" of the day went on hiatus).


            Does Mike send PMs to everyone? I never started getting them until I signed up on his site so I thought it was only people who showed interest in what he had to offer.

            Tina
            Tina, I'd guestimate about 10K members here are on my customer list - and have an interest in our products. I'd love to send out a bulk PM offer to them (which isn't difficult to do), announce new products, etc., etc., but somehow I don't think Allen or the Mods would approve

            I cannot say if the practice is continuing, but prior to this, those running WSO's were getting offers to upgrade to WSO Pro via PM (triggered by the new WSO being posted). It wasn't a matter of Allen remaining silent on it - he just wasn't aware of it.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

          OK, sorry Mike. Damn me and your Ouzo.



          Steve
          No problem...and incidentally, we've not run a WSO in a very long time. We do offer Warriors (and only Warriors) good discounts, but we're absolutely consistent with pricing them.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            I won't use that WSO system just for this reason.

            I'm not going to sell a bunch of units to people that pay a fair price only to see a couple days later my price is slashed in half.

            I've also stopped buying from a couple of people that use the system as I never know whether I'm getting the best price or not...
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              I honestly don't know why a WSO seller would want to use WarriorWSO Plus
              or whatever it is.

              You're already selling your product at a giveaway price, so what, you're
              going to now take half of that?

              Makes no sense to me at all. The number of sales can't possibly make up
              for the loss in income from dropping the price.
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              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I honestly don't know why a WSO seller would want to use WarriorWSO Plus
                or whatever it is.

                You're already selling your product at a giveaway price, so what, you're
                going to now take half of that?

                Makes no sense to me at all. The number of sales can't possibly make up
                for the loss in income from dropping the price.
                Well praise Jesus...we found some common ground

                That's exactly right - you don't get picked for this WSO/WP of the Day until your WSO has already proven successful. You're on a roll...PayPal can't keep up with your sales and...

                Now you want to split the profit with someone else after you did all the freaking work? And at an even further reduced pricepoint? :rolleyes:
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I honestly don't know why a WSO seller would want to use WarriorWSO Plus
                or whatever it is.

                You're already selling your product at a giveaway price, so what, you're
                going to now take half of that?

                Makes no sense to me at all. The number of sales can't possibly make up
                for the loss in income from dropping the price.
                I am going to address some other points brought up, but I wanted to address this one first...

                Steven, you are 100% wrong about this, and if you would think about it, you would realize it real fast. I can guarantee you that the number of additional sales made FAR make up for any difference in price. You can ask ANY of the sellers who have participated and I am sure they will tell you the same thing.

                I have all of the facts, and you and Big Mike have none, yet you can make these kind of claims? Come on, Steven, you are better than that.

                The sad thing here is that Big Mike has made up so many things in all of his comments about this issue in an attempt to confuse everyone. Most of the confusion around "WSO of the Day" was actually caused by him, not me or the "WSO of the Day" itself.

                More in a minute...

                Mike
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Mike,
                  Most of the confusion around "WSO of the Day" was actually caused by him, not me or the "WSO of the Day" itself.
                  This is not accurate.

                  I was confused about it until I asked, and the confusion did not come from anything MK said. It started because of that pesky 'W' in WSO. That stands for 'Warrior,' and specifically relates to this forum. There's an unconscious, but very clear, association created by that.

                  Further adding to the misunderstanding was the use of the term "award" by some sellers. I don't tend to put much faith in such things, but a lot of people assumed it really was the result of vetting and conscious choice based on the product itself, rather than sales data.

                  This confusion was not the invention of any single person.
                  The sad thing here is that Big Mike has made up so many things in all of his comments about this issue in an attempt to confuse everyone.
                  This statement imputes malicious intent. I see no evidence to support the accusation.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Mike,

                    As I see it, WarriorPlus and WSO Pro are not the issue here. The issue is the effect of reducing the price on a WSO after it has already established a track record. Which is to say, after a lot of people have already paid the original (higher) price.

                    I see that as a valid subject for discussion.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Mike,

                      As I see it, WarriorPlus and WSO Pro are not the issue here. The issue is the effect of reducing the price on a WSO after it has already established a track record. Which is to say, after a lot of people have already paid the original (higher) price.

                      I see that as a valid subject for discussion.


                      Paul
                      That is a problem, and when it happens it tends to create ill will amongst previous WSO buyers.

                      In another thread someone mentioned not having multi-tiered pricing, but that isn't a problem (IMHO) as long as the price keeps going up, not down. The WSO should be the lowest AVAILABLE price and once the first tier is gone, the second tier becomes the lowest available.

                      But, can you imagine a multi-tiered pricing structure that was reversed?

                      The first 10 buyers get it for only $27
                      Buyers 11-20 get it for $20
                      Buyers 21-50 get it for $10
                      Buyers 51+ get it for only $5

                      So hurry up and wait to make sure you get the best deal!

                      Sounds almost laughable, but isn't that similar to the WSO of the Day reducing the price?

                      All the best,
                      Michael
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Michael,
                        So hurry up and wait to make sure you get the best deal!

                        Sounds almost laughable, but isn't that similar to the WSO of the Day reducing the price?
                        Except for the fact that you never know (unless you're paying attention) which will be the WSOTD/WPoTD.

                        Interestingly, because of the way offers are chosen and the things people respond to most actively, the scams are the most likely to be picked. Yeah... The stuff that promises $X,000 per day. That is a significant flaw in the methodology, with potentially serious consequences.

                        But yes... The overall impact of the potential for lowered pricing is probably a tendency to create slower response to all offers in that section until/unless they're chosen. The question isn't whether it happens, just to what degree.


                        Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                        Michael,

                        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                        So hurry up and wait to make sure you get the best deal!
                        Ah. That'll be the old "abundance" tactic. Very devious.

                        I agree with those who say that the price in any WSO should be the lowest available and that, therefore, there shouldn't be a further promotional price reduction of that product. That, in my mind, negates the "Special" bit of a WSO.

                        However, if a subsequent promotion, for example, bundled two or more WSOs together for a combined price lower than their standard aggregated prices, that might be more acceptable.


                        Frank
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Mike,
                          it does make sense to assume that if a "WSO of the Day" offer was posted and running in the WSO Forum, it was "approved" just like any other WSO
                          Not if one assumes a connection between the offers and the forum itself. It may be true, but it's not at all obvious.


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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                  Steven, you are 100% wrong about this, and if you would think about it, you would realize it real fast. I can guarantee you that the number of additional sales made FAR make up for any difference in price. You can ask ANY of the sellers who have participated and I am sure they will tell you the same thing.

                  I have all of the facts, and you and Big Mike have none, yet you can make these kind of claims? Come on, Steven, you are better than that.
                  Actually, I'm basing my argument on nothing to do with your service.

                  From my own testing I have found that when I offer a product at one
                  price and then offer a similar product in that line at a lower price, the
                  increase in sales does not make up for the loss in income from lowering
                  the price.

                  Granted, this is just my personal experience with my own products, but
                  that is all I have to go on. Therefore, products that I have tested at
                  $X, $Y and $Z, with X being the lowest price and Z being the highest
                  price, I have found that it doesn't pay to sell at X.

                  Everybody's mileage may vary, but I can speak for myself.

                  Point is, my argument IS based on my own testing and facts from that
                  testing.

                  Hope this clears that up.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Actually, I'm basing my argument on nothing to do with your service.

                    Steven, you are a great guy. I want you to know that.

                    To be fair to Mike, you could have made the above point
                    clearer in your original post where you said:


                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    I honestly don't know why a WSO seller would want to use WarriorWSO Plus
                    or whatever it is.

                    You're already selling your product at a giveaway price, so what, you're
                    going to now take half of that?

                    Makes no sense to me at all. The number of sales can't possibly make up
                    for the loss in income from dropping the price.

                    In that original post, a clear reference to
                    WSO Plus was made there.

                    I believe your testing results, Steven.

                    But that's not to say it could be the same
                    under a "WSO of the Day" setting.

                    But of course, as you said - and I totally agree
                    - everyone's mileage varies
                    due to different products/price points involved.

                    Best,
                    Jag
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Actually, I'm basing my argument on nothing to do with your service.

                    From my own testing I have found that when I offer a product at one
                    price and then offer a similar product in that line at a lower price, the
                    increase in sales does not make up for the loss in income from lowering
                    the price.

                    Granted, this is just my personal experience with my own products, but
                    that is all I have to go on. Therefore, products that I have tested at
                    , and , with X being the lowest price and Z being the highest
                    price, I have found that it doesn't pay to sell at X.

                    Everybody's mileage may vary, but I can speak for myself.

                    Point is, my argument IS based on my own testing and facts from that
                    testing.

                    Hope this clears that up.
                    Hey Steven,

                    That is more clear for sure, but as Jag stated, that is not what you said originally.

                    BTW, I would totally be willing to run a test with you. (You know, to make you a believer! )

                    You run a WSO with a promotional price yourself, and then run a WSO as the "Deal of the Day" with WSO Pro. If you don't see an increase in sales that more than make up for the difference in price through the "deal of the day", I will give you 100% of my commission.

                    Up for the challenge?

                    Mike
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                      Hey Steven,

                      That is more clear for sure, but as Jag stated, that is not what you said originally.

                      BTW, I would totally be willing to run a test with you. (You know, to make you a believer! )

                      You run a WSO with a promotional price yourself, and then run a WSO as the "Deal of the Day" with WSO Pro. If you don't see an increase in sales that more than make up for the difference in price through the "deal of the day", I will give you 100% of my commission.

                      Up for the challenge?

                      Mike

                      Mike, I have no problem taking your challenge on its merits alone. And
                      please understand, my original remarks (which I admit I should have made
                      clearer) had nothing to do with the service itself but the overall general
                      lowering of prices on items that are already being given away, so to speak.
                      I honestly don't see the business sense in it.

                      Having said that, there is only one way I would take you up on your offer.

                      Everybody would have to get the WSO at THAT price. Nobody can have
                      paid more for it earlier on.

                      I am very strict about being fair to all my customers. The same goes in
                      reverse when somebody emails me and asks if they can have an item for
                      a discount. My answer is always the same. It wouldn't be fair to those who
                      paid a higher price.

                      Now, if I offer the discount to everybody, which I do to my list regularly,
                      that's different. And usually I will tell the person that I offer specials from
                      time to time and that they may want to wait until I offer that product as
                      a special.

                      Also, there is one other problem with your offer as far as my products go.

                      I have pretty much stopped selling products where people can buy them
                      and there is no limit to the number of sales. My latest WSO line has been
                      at 100 units and that's it.

                      Lately, I've been selling about 60 to 70 of these, probably because of the
                      higher price. If I take you up on your offer, even if I sell all 100, at 50%
                      off, I still don't make as much as selling 60 or 70.

                      Now, if I was selling only 30, then yes, it pays.

                      See the problem?

                      So I would have to come up with a product that has no volume limit. And
                      quite honestly, I don't see that happening. I have found that true scarcity
                      on a product that requires it, works better for me.

                      Anyway, I hope my explanations have cleared up things a little better.
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                      • Profile picture of the author DogScout
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


                        So I would have to come up with a product that has no volume limit. And
                        quite honestly, I don't see that happening. I have found that true scarcity
                        on a product that requires it, works better for me.

                        Anyway, I hope my explanations have cleared up things a little better.
                        True scarcity could be time as well as volume, so if you usually sell your 60 in 2 weeks, use 2 weeks as the scarcity instead of the volume, ending the 2 weeks as WPSO or whatever it is called this week as the last day

                        Not sure if your regulars would be upset (only you know that) but if it were to actually mean selling even an extra few units AFTER your regular amount is sold... could be a possibility? (as long as it wouldn't alienate any regulars)

                        Not sure, but could offer regulars a free product afterwords for the fact they paid twice as much as those that did on the last day. Just thinking aloud.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

                          True scarcity could be time as well as volume, so if you usually sell your 60 in 2 weeks, use 2 weeks as the scarcity instead of the volume, ending the 2 weeks as WPSO or whatever it is called this week as the last day

                          Not sure if your regulars would be upset (only you know that) but if it were to actually mean selling even an extra few units AFTER your regular amount is sold... could be a possibility? (as long as it wouldn't alienate any regulars)

                          Not sure, but could offer regulars a free product afterwords for the fact they paid twice as much as those that did on the last day. Just thinking aloud.
                          Not with a gun pointed to my head would I do this.

                          Sorry, but the money isn't as important as making sure my customers
                          are happy.
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

                          True scarcity could be time as well as volume, so if you usually sell your 60 in 2 weeks, use 2 weeks as the scarcity instead of the volume, ending the 2 weeks as WPSO or whatever it is called this week as the last day

                          Not sure if your regulars would be upset (only you know that) but if it were to actually mean selling even an extra few units AFTER your regular amount is sold... could be a possibility? (as long as it wouldn't alienate any regulars)

                          Not sure, but could offer regulars a free product afterwords for the fact they paid twice as much as those that did on the last day. Just thinking aloud.
                          Since he offers low competition niches and niche research and I am one of his customers, I think I can answer this. I would be upset and probably would not buy if it were based on time rather than a limited number. In low competition niches, numbers are everything and his numbers, and I believe, his honest adherence to those numbers are the reason I buy them.
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                          • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            Since he offers low competition niches and niche research and I am one of his customers, I think I can answer this. I would be upset and probably would not buy if it were based on time rather than a limited number. In low competition niches, numbers are everything and his numbers, and I believe, his honest adherence to those numbers are the reason I buy them.
                            I would agree with you on this, too. Stuff like this that is generally limited quantity has never fit well with this kind of offer, and I have had to turn a few people away because of it.

                            Sorry, Steven, I guess your offers are just not a good fit for our challenge.

                            Mike
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                          • Profile picture of the author DogScout
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            Since he offers low competition niches and niche research and I am one of his customers, I think I can answer this. I would be upset and probably would not buy if it were based on time rather than a limited number. In low competition niches, numbers are everything and his numbers, and I believe, his honest adherence to those numbers are the reason I buy them.
                            and I've always known I've liked you

                            (almost as much as that cigar smoking gal)
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              To Razer Rage:

                              I have no problem with people using WarriorPlus or whatever it is to have
                              their delivery automated so they don't have to worry about hosting and
                              stuff. That part is a viable service for many people.

                              That's cool.

                              What's not cool is pissing off customers.

                              And I'm sorry, and maybe this is just me (God I hope not) but I don't want
                              my customers kicking themselves because they bought at a higher price and
                              then the price came down.

                              End of story as far as I'm concerned.

                              But like I said, everybody has to do what's right for them.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                Steve, I know what you're saying. I just don't agree.

                                Take DVD's. New releases are usually $20 at retail. You can buy it then, and have it when the movie is fresh and new. Or, you can wait a while, when the price will go down to $10.

                                Sorry Steve, but there is no real reason to be ticked off when a sale for an item occurs after you have bought it. It happens in real life business all the time, and it is something consumers have come to expect from businesses.

                                I know there are some scenarios, like pricing your product at $50 one day and then the next day it is $20, that would be a cause for irritation.

                                By the way. I've noticed in some of your WSO's, you've offered some of your products for a bulk discount. How do the previous buyers of your products feel about this? Are they pissed off? I doubt it.

                                Again, sorry. But if I decide to opt-in to DotD for my WSO, and a week later I'm selected, if some of my buyers want to be ticked off at that, then it's their problem, not mine. They should know better than to assume that I'm NEVER going to change the price of my product. That's just silly. Especially for a marketer.

                                Okay, so we'll just agree to disagree.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                Sorry Steve, but there is no real reason to be ticked off when a sale for an item occurs after you have bought it. It happens in real life business all the time, and it is something consumers have come to expect from businesses.

                                I know there are some scenarios, like pricing your product at $50 one day and then the next day it is $20, that would be a cause for irritation.
                                I'm going to go ahead and butt in here even though you aren't talking to me specifically.

                                How about if it was $50 one day, and then $25 the next day?

                                You concede that a 60% discount might be a cause for irritation, but that a 50% discount after a day, followed by an increase back to full price the NEXT day won't?

                                Is it the 10% that makes a difference? I'm honestly curious how you differentiate between these two.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              I won't use that WSO system just for this reason.

              I'm not going to sell a bunch of units to people that pay a fair price only to see a couple days later my price is slashed in half.

              I've also stopped buying from a couple of people that use the system as I never know whether I'm getting the best price or not...
              Jeremy,

              I think you may be a little bit confused as to how the system works. The use of WSO Pro in no way requires you to discount your product or allow WarriorPlus to promote it at all. It is 100% opt-in, and the price is NEVER slashed without much discussion between the seller and myself.

              People change and test their prices all of the time - in and out of the WSO forum. This practice is smart marketing, and it would be crazy for someone NOT to test their pricing to find the best results.

              And, keep in mind that "WSO Pro" is not some system I put together overnight to benefit just myself as Big Mike would like you to believe. WSO Pro was developed over the last 2 years, and before that every single service on WarriorPlus was free and remain free today.

              On top of that, WSO Pro is HIGHLY recommended by Allen and has been a sticky at the top of the War Room for months now. Of course, Big Mike didn't mention that.

              Anyway, the point of my response is simply to let you know how the WSO Pro system works. In NO WAY are you required to discount your product or let WarriorPlus or Allen promote it at all - it is entirely up to you.

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                Jeremy,

                I think you may be a little bit confused as to how the system works. The use of WSO Pro in no way requires you to discount your product or allow WarriorPlus to promote it at all. It is 100% opt-in, and the price is NEVER slashed without much discussion between the seller and myself.
                I completely understand what it is and how it works. I looked at it a bit when it first came out deciding whether or not I was going to use it.

                The problem or confusion in my mind and in the minds of others I have spoken to is this...

                When the WSO deal of the day stuff started happening - it over shadowed the actual service. People were no longer using the service because they wanted to use the service - they were using the service in the hopes of giving their offer a shot at being "WSO Deal Of The Day"

                And I've got to be honest...

                Between the way you promote it in the Gen Discussion forum at times, the unsolicited PM's that I've received once or Twice, all the stickies that belong to you, etc...I figured that Allen was "part" of it - Because frankly, I've never seen anything promoted in the open and with such frequency without the Poster suffering at the very least a temp ban.

                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                People change and test their prices all of the time - in and out of the WSO forum. This practice is smart marketing, and it would be crazy for someone NOT to test their pricing to find the best results.
                True, but let me run down this situation for you and then tell you what I think about it...

                Warrior A who is a product creator has a list of warriors. He/She posts their WSO and then emails their list of Warrior Forum Members letting them know about it and they all pile in and snatch it up for $27. 5 days later, the rest of the forum is able to get it for $13.50...

                Now, this has happened to me and again, to be honest, it pissed me off.

                So, in order to JV with you and get the title of "WSO of the day" the product creator sold me out? - It left a bad taste in my mouth and I let him know by email immediately.

                To me anyway, it goes against everything that a WSO is supposed to be. It would be one thing if it was a 3 month old product and the product owner decided to have a "sale" or give the product one last run in the WSO, but to drop the price by half 5 days later? Makes no sense to me.

                Sure, the product gets some extra exposure and it rakes in some extra bucks - But, my experience has taught me to wait at least a week to buy anything with a WSO Pro button on it and I suspect i'm not the only one...

                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                On top of that, WSO Pro is HIGHLY recommended by Allen and has been a sticky at the top of the War Room for months now. Of course, Big Mike didn't mention that.

                Anyway, the point of my response is simply to let you know how the WSO Pro system works. In NO WAY are you required to discount your product or let WarriorPlus or Allen promote it at all - it is entirely up to you.

                Mike
                It's when you make statements such as the bolded ones above that give people the impression that Allen is somehow involved....which ultimately at some point, often causes or caused in the past some confusion.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steve,
      I'm sure I've seen some *bots on offer for far less than a previous WSO price.
      There is no requirement that a WSO price is the absolute lowest that you'll ever offer. It has to be better than the price to the general public at the time. And yes, you can offer the same price to your subscribers as to the Warriors. (I asked about that specifically.)

      Yes, some people will try to game that. Nothing will stop folks from trying to game any set of rules if they think it will benefit them to do so. Part of life.


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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    There is no guarantee that the WSO in question will be selected as WSO of the day. Personally, I think this was an excellent addition to the WSO forum.

    Besides, not everyone buys a WSO as soon as they read the sales letter.

    I've bought WSO's that later became WSO of the day. Did I feel ripped off? No. The difference was, what, a few dollars?

    I don't see what the big deal is.
    There was NEVER a "WSO of the DAY" - Allen did not authorize it...and it created a number of problems, including the awarding of at least one "Scam" WSO with this title.

    And that's a big part of the problem - a lot of members were convinced that it was a legitimate WF award...including yourself.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      I cannot say if the practice is continuing, but prior to this, those running WSO's were getting offers to upgrade to WSO Pro via PM (triggered by the new WSO being posted). It wasn't a matter of Allen remaining silent on it - he just wasn't aware of it.
      I do have to admit that those rather annoyed me...lol. I don't use his system for my WSOs and have no intention of it. Frankly, I just don't see the benefit to me to do so.

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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

      I'm not an idiot. I know perfectly well that it was something that Mike was doing on his own, and I had assumed that you knew what I was talking about.

      WSO of the Day, or whatever you want to call it. I'm talking about Mike Lantz's excellent contribution to the WSO forum. He continues to help WSO Sellers in amazing ways. WSO of the Day was one of those things.

      Is it an official award? No. But what does that matter? I was never confused about it. I knew it meant a nice discount on a popular recent WSO.

      I was not aware of any problems with WSO Pro. I think you are making unfair accusations.
      Maybe you were never confused about the WSO of the Day, but many of the members were.

      And let's be clear when talking about "Contributions" - he is paid a fee for using his WSO services. That's not a problem...we're all here to make money - but by no stretch of the imagination is it a "Contribution".

      And let's also be clear that he directly profited from every WSO of the Day, under the guise of it being singled out somehow by the Warrior Forum as special. It was always about the profit...
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        And let's be clear when talking about "Contributions" - he is paid a fee for using his WSO services. That's not a problem...we're all here to make money - but by no stretch of the imagination is it a "Contribution".
        Come on Big Mike, really? I have never made any "contribution" to the forum? Anyone who knows me or WarriorPlus must be laughing their behind off right now.

        Sadly, you know very well that most of my WSO "services" do not have a fee at all - they are completely free. WSO Tracker has been around for 4 years and there has never been a charge for it. WSO Alerts (promoted by a sticky in the WSO forum) has been around for over a year - again, with no charge.

        Other services like "Pay It Forward" (currently down for maintenance) have also been available for years at no charge. I created all of these services because I thought they would help other Warriors, and even the forum itself. And, from all of the feedback I have received, I think I have mostly succeeded.

        The reality is, I think you would be hard-pressed to say you have made any more of a contribution to this forum than I have. I like to help people, and will continue to do so as long as I can.

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        And let's also be clear that he directly profited from every WSO of the Day, under the guise of it being singled out somehow by the Warrior Forum as special. It was always about the profit...
        It is true that I have profited from services I created around "WSO Pro". I found that I was not spending enough time updating all of my free WarriorPlus services because I was busy working on other things because I needed to earn a living. So, when the idea and opportunity to create WSO Pro came around, I decided it was a good opportunity to earn some money from the site and allow me to spend more time on it.

        As early users of WSO Pro will recall, I offered the service in nearly feature-complete beta for an entire year for $1 - you know, because it was all about the profit. I just wanted to take the money and run!

        And, just to clarify, at no time did I EVER say that having an offer run as "WSO of the Day" somehow made it special or endorsed at all by the Warrior Forum. I would NEVER try to pass off anything I do as some official sanction from Allen unless I had permission to do so.

        Like I said, I like the Warrior Forum. I like helping people. I like to see others succeed. If any of that is a crime, I guess I am guilty.

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    I would be pretty annoyed too if what I thought was the best price online wasn't the truth and the best price I paid was undercut to 50% on the very same forum. If you want freedom to adjust your price then use the products and services forum, don't mislead your customers into thinking they are getting an exclusive special offer when they are not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
    The WSO of the Day has never sat right with me...and this new thing won't either.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I think part of the confusion is between the WSO of the Day and WSO Pro.

    It is my understanding that while Allen may endorse WSO Pro, but NOT the WSO of the Day.

    BIG Mike is not making up the fact that many members here assumed the WSO of the Day had Allen's express approval and that he had some say in which WSOs were chosen for such an illustrious award. How do I know he was right about it? Because I thought the same thing.

    As far as Jeremy's comments go, my guess is that he was referring to the WSO of the Day and not WSO Pro.

    I was one of the beta testers for WSO Pro, and I was happy with some of the features. However, I haven't used it since, but not due to any nefarious reasons.

    Perhaps a clear definition from Mike about the differences between the two would help.

    All the best,
    Mike "Yes, there are a lot of Mikes here" Oksa
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      BIG Mike is not making up the fact that many members here assumed the WSO of the Day had Allen's express approval and that he had some say in which WSOs were chosen for such an illustrious award. How do I know he was right about it? Because I thought the same thing.
      Same here. While I never thought that the WSO of the Day was an "award," I certainly thought that it had Allen's seal of approval. Otherwise, why would it be there? I didn't get that idea from BIG Mike or anyone else for that matter. It was certainly a natural, if incorrect, assumption.

      I didn't learn differently until there was a thread discussing it.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Same here. While I never thought that the WSO of the Day was an "award," I certainly thought that it had Allen's seal of approval. Otherwise, why would it be there? I didn't get that idea from BIG Mike or anyone else for that matter. It was certainly a natural, if incorrect, assumption.

        I didn't learn differently until there was a thread discussing it.
        You and a few others make a valid comment that I want to address...

        First, let me say that I am not saying Big Mike invented everything he said about possible "WSO of the Day" confusion, however he has made a lot of inferences that lead people to believe more than the simple facts.

        When I originally created "WSO of the Day", I PMed Allen multiple times asking if he had any concerns or suggestions for me creating such a service. No concerns were ever expressed, but nor am I saying he "endorsed" it either.

        So, when I was ready to give it a go, I posted the first offer in the WSO forum, just like all WSOs are posted. I figured if there was a major problem with my idea, my offer would not get approved and I would possibly get some good feedback to let me know there was a problem. That is how the WSO forum works, right?

        In any case, the offer was approved, I paid for my listing, and "WSO of the Day" was born. For 3 months I posted 4-5 offers a week in conjunction with fellow Warriors.

        Not ONCE did a single Warrior that I partnered with complain about the service or the results of each sale. On just a few occasions (2 or 3, I think) a buyer made a comment that they were a little annoyed that the price had dropped after they had paid more for it a few days earlier. However, just as many (if not more) previous buyers who had paid a higher price said it did not bother them at all. They stated that they understand the things go on sale all of the time, and that did not lessen the value of the product or experience for them.

        To return to the original point, it does make sense to assume that if a "WSO of the Day" offer was posted and running in the WSO Forum, it was "approved" just like any other WSO that is running. However, it doesn't mean it is somehow "endorsed" by Allen, just like every other WSO posted there is not specifically endorsed by Allen or the forum. This is all laid out clearly in the WSO rules.

        Hope that clarifies things a little bit.

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author John Rogers
          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

          When I originally created "WSO of the Day", I PMed Allen multiple times asking if he had any concerns or suggestions for me creating such a service. No concerns were ever expressed, but nor am I saying he "endorsed" it either.
          So, he didn't reply?

          If not, that's where it should have ended. Silence is not consent.

          If a 16 year old kid asks repeatedly, "Dad, can I borrow the car?" and Dad doesn't answer, does that mean it's okay to go ahead and take the car?

          John
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          • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
            Originally Posted by John Rogers View Post

            So, he didn't reply?

            If not, that's where it should have ended. Silence is not consent.

            If a 16 year old kid asks repeatedly, "Dad, can I borrow the car?" and Dad doesn't answer, does that mean it's okay to go ahead and take the car?

            John
            That's how my 17 yo took it the first time it happened . Don't think she applies the same reasoning after sitting in her room the next weekend :-)
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
            Originally Posted by John Rogers View Post

            So, he didn't reply?

            If not, that's where it should have ended. Silence is not consent.

            If a 16 year old kid asks repeatedly, "Dad, can I borrow the car?" and Dad doesn't answer, does that mean it's okay to go ahead and take the car?

            John
            While I can see your point, John, I did not take it as consent or rejection. What I decided to do was take it through the normal WSO approval channel, as that seemed the most logical avenue. Should I not take an approved WSO as consent that it is ok to run?

            That is what I was thinking, and it seems fairly logical to me.

            Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

              Should I not take an approved WSO as consent that it is ok to run?
              Mike
              Ummm.. not really.

              Just because a WSO gets approved in no way means that the Warrior Forum or Allen has give consent. WSO's do not go through a vetting process other than if it's a blatent scam it's refused.

              There is no way anyone could go through every single WSO posted to verify it. That is exactly why Allen has many times said buyer beware and do you own due diligence.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                Ummm.. not really.
                Just because a WSO gets approved in no way means that the Warrior Forum or Allen has give consent.
                Seems to me that once your payment has been accepted and your ad allowed to run, there's consent. Just how I see it. Now back to the observation deck.
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                • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                  Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                  Seems to me that once your payment has been accepted and your ad allowed to run, there's consent. Just how I see it. Now back to the observation deck.
                  The only consent given there is that you consented to pay Allen for the right to post your offer on his forum and he consented to take your payment.

                  No one is going through every single WSO posted verfying them and agreeing with them. A WSO being run on this forum in no way implies Allens endorsement or consent of it. It just means you paid your money to run your advertisement.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I passed on commenting before because Mike Lantz wasn't here to defend himself, but now that he has joined the thread, he can correct me if I'm mistaking him for someone else, but...

    As I recall it was after I bought a WSO of the day that you started sending me emails about each next WSO of the day, even though I didn't sign up to your mailing list. Then, clicking the link to unsubscribe took me to a forum that I didn't belong to in order to unsubscribe, which would force me to join your forum since I didn't belong and didn't have any login details.

    Is that your modus operandi, or am I confusing you with someone else? If that's you, I have a bone to pick with you.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I passed on commenting before because Mike Lantz wasn't here to defend himself, but now that he has joined the thread, he can correct me if I'm mistaking him for someone else, but...

      As I recall it was after I bought a WSO of the day that you started sending me emails about each next WSO of the day, even though I didn't sign up to your mailing list. Then, clicking the link to unsubscribe took me to a forum that I didn't belong to in order to unsubscribe, which would force me to join your forum since I didn't belong and didn't have any login details.

      Is that your modus operandi, or am I confusing you with someone else? If that's you, I have a bone to pick with you.
      Hey Dennis,

      There was a glitch last week that caused an email to go out to people who may have not specifically opted-in to receive the notification. But, this only happened once. You will likely receive another email from me shortly discussing this issue, with a very clear way to discontinue any future communications.

      I am sorry for this inconvenience, though, as it is certainly not the way I do business.

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Razer,
        So what is BIG Mike's intent?
        Doesn't matter, does it? His words are the basis for this discussion. That said, I rather doubt his desire is to damage anyone. The posts he's made here are pretty clear, and raise issues that seem worth discussion.

        I would suggest that you not resurrect comments which the poster deleted and publicly acknowledged were inappropriate. That serves no useful purpose.


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        • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Razer,Doesn't matter, does it? His words are the basis for this discussion. That said, I rather doubt his desire is to damage anyone. The posts he's made here are pretty clear, and raise issues that seem worth discussion.

          I would suggest that you not resurrect comments which the poster deleted and publicly acknowledged were inappropriate. That serves no useful purpose.


          Paul
          Hey Paul,

          While I never saw these comments, I do think they may be valid to bring up. It gives you an idea of the frame of mind Mike was in when he made this post, don't you think?

          Seriously, just look at the title of this post and half of his original post. Big Mike surely has malicious intent here, Paul, especially taken in context of previous threads on this topic (that are now locked). While it may lead to a (somewhat) valid discussion, that doesn't change the intent in which it was posted.

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Mike,
            While I never saw these comments, I do think they may be valid to bring up. It gives you an idea of the frame of mind Mike was in when he made this post, don't you think?
            No, I don't. And I rather suspect that holding every person to every self-acknowledged poor choice of words is something very few of us would welcome. I wouldn't, and I doubt you would.

            The thread stands as it is. Attempts to re-add things which were deleted will be treated as an effort to distract from the legitimate issues.


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          • Profile picture of the author SMS
            Razer Rage & the few others thanks for speaking up in defence of Mr Lantz!

            Last time round I was the only one to defend him, and I kinda regretted doing it.

            A few points...

            1. I too assumed the WSO OF THE DAY thingy had Allen's blessing.

            2. I never assumed that it was an 'official award' by the Forum.

            3. If there was a problem, how come the WSOs kept on getting approved day after day for several months until Mike voluntarily stopped them?

            4. I hate paying for something (anywhere - offline & online) & seeing it sold at a lower price somewhere else.

            5. I asked MIke if selling at a lower price had caused any problems and he said only 2 or 3 people had complained.

            6. I have had 4 of these XXXX OF THE DAY deals made hundreds of sales and not had one complaint from anybody.

            7. Personally, I always offer my customers that buy at full price bonuses to compensate. I do unto others as I would like to be done to.

            8. Let's face it guys this is a capitalist society. People do dicounts and sales all the time.

            9. I have several of BIG Mike's tools that I bought at full price. I have received several emails of special deals subsequently. Not once have I complained about this practice even though I did not like the idea that I could have paid less for it.

            10. Hundreds of people on this forum have benefited from Mike's services.

            11. Why aren't more people speaking up in his defence?

            12. People reduce the prices of their WSOs all the time!

            13. Why is Mike Lantz being singled out?


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            • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              Razer Rage & the few others thanks for speaking up in defence of Mr Lantz!

              Last time round I was the only one to defend him, and I kinda regretted doing it.

              A few points...

              1. I too assumed the WSO OF THE DAY thingy had Allen's blessing.
              Yeah, I think that was the intent of the product being named the way it was.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              2. I never assumed that it was an 'official award' by the Forum.
              What's the difference between it being blessed and being official?

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              3. If there was a problem, how come the WSOs kept on getting approved day after day for several months until Mike voluntarily stopped them?
              I thought he said he stopped when asked, not voluntarily. And unless I'm mistaken, they're started again, but just under a different name. Did I misunderstand?

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              4. I hate paying for something (anywhere - offline & online) & seeing it sold at a lower price somewhere else.
              Everyone does. But let me ask you, do you ever SAY anything about it? You may intend to, but do you ACTUALLY say something, or do you let it slide and just subconsciously reconsider doing business again? I ask because I feel the way you do, but I behave the way I describe. Which leads me to:

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              5. I asked MIke if selling at a lower price had caused any problems and he said only 2 or 3 people had complained.
              Lack of complaints does not equal satisfaction. You ever have a terrible meal at a restaurant that wasn't worth making a stink over, but was bad enough for you to never go back? Do you think it's possible that chef may continue to think his food is actually good because "Hey, I ain't heard any complaints."

              Also, if Mike HAD actually heard such complaints, but wished to continue selling his product anyway, why would he be honest about what he told you? I'm not saying he's dishonest, I'm just saying that he has a vested interest in a particular answer. Also, Mike could only report to you what was reported to him. That would mean TWO layers of dissatisfaction having to filter out. See above re: silent dissatisfaction.

              Note: I say two layers because presumably, Mike doesn't actually look at the customer data as he says, so it's up to the vendor to pass complaints up the chain in order for Mike to even know about them. That won't necessarily happen, even if that dissatisfaction exists.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              6. I have had 4 of these XXXX OF THE DAY deals made hundreds of sales and not had one complaint from anybody.
              Again, lack of complaints does not equal satisfaction. And considering that only hot products get chosen, why would you want to actually CUT the price when you're making money AND give away half the profits? That devalues YOUR product, and Lantz gets to keep half the proceeds for talking you into it.

              Yeah, you might get more customers, but they're all customers who ONLY WANT STUFF THAT IS HALF-OFF! Do you think you will sell more stuff to that crowd effectively if you don't continue to gut yourself over price? Not my favorite kind of customers to have.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              7. Personally, I always offer my customers that buy at full price bonuses to compensate. I do unto others as I would like to be done to.
              If I was a customer of yours, this tactic would annoy me. I don't want extra crap after the fact in order to make up for what you are telling me was PHANTOM value in your initial offer. If you can cut the price by half, and then have to offer me more stuff to make up for it, I feel like you've ripped me off in the first transaction, plain and simple.

              Unless of course, you only tell me about it if I notice and ask. In which case, you're just suppressing and obfuscating info from your customers, which I stated in my previous response is just not ethical.

              And realize that when you say yo do this for your "full price" customers, you're already incorrect because the WSO price should NOT be the full price, it should be the DISCOUNTED price. The issue is the double-discount undercut.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              8. Let's face it guys this is a capitalist society. People do dicounts and sales all the time.
              Sure, but the label applied to WSO's is already "The Best Deal Out There". Having a subset of those deals be "more better than best" doesn't make any kind of sense, and damages the original label. That's the real concern here.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              9. I have several of BIG Mike's tools that I bought at full price. I have received several emails of special deals subsequently. Not once have I complained about this practice even though I did not like the idea that I could have paid less for it.
              This isn't the same thing. If you bought it for full price, you had no expectation of it being under a discount at all. If you'd bought it at a discount through being part of a club, and then after purchase, found out that as a member of that SAME CLUB you could get it for half what you paid for it, how would you feel then? What if you complained and they said "Bummer - do you want some other stuff that you never even wanted to make up for it?"

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              10. Hundreds of people on this forum have benefited from Mike's services.
              Irrelevant. Even if you like him and his other services, that doesn't mean you have to defend all his practices.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              11. Why aren't more people speaking up in his defence?
              I don't know, maybe because he's not being personally attacked? If you can defend his practices, please do. He doesn't need defending because no one is attacking him.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              12. People reduce the prices of their WSOs all the time!
              Yeah, I don't agree with that either. Especially if it's a WSO that's actually still currently on offer, then you drop the price again. That's not "pricing" that's some kind of circus BS. Same with tiered pricing. I'm not a fan. That's another structure that uses price as a manipulator, when price should be the FAIR thing about a product, not a punishing measure.

              Also, when others slash prices, they're probably not doing so on their best-sellers, and certainly not for the privilege of going halfsies on it.

              Originally Posted by SMS View Post

              13. Why is Mike Lantz being singled out?
              Because he is the sole provider of the service and practice in question. If anyone else is doing it, let me know. It's the practice that's not good, not the person. Which is why this thread is even still happening.
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              • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Isn't it obvious? The difference is that Allen approved it. If it was official, Allen himself would have launched it.

                Is that clear enough for you?
                I wasn't asking you, I was curious what SMS thought the difference was. But your answer is fine, too. I personally tend to think of approval as being an official statement. But we're in semantic territory. My point was that the naming and presentation and positioning of the service gave MANY people the impression that it was MORE than just a normal offering.

                The cumulative effect of the name, the presentation, the execution, and even the way the PMing interacts with this forum ALL imply that it was more than just a "I guess, sounds good" kind of response from the powers that be.

                I'm not being unreasonable here - there's not really a clear gradient of levels of okay-ness on this forum. There's here and there's gone. If it's here, it's presumed to be okay, because things that are not okay are quickly eliminated.

                For something to be here, and in a prominent position with identical branding, etc. assuming full approval and involvement is a perfectly reasonable expectation ESPECIALLY if you don't hang around here frequently, or are new here.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                You misunderstood. He stopped when asked, voluntarily. He wasn't forced to stop. The reason that they started again under a different name was to avoid any confusion.

                Didn't you even read Mike L's posts?
                I read the whole thread. I don't read Mike's emails, so I don't know if he was asked, or told. If he was asked and refused, would he have THEN been told or made to stop? Probably. When you're concerned about the FTC, it's not really up to Mike whether he can keep doing what he wants to here.

                I find it interesting you will argue for a clear delineation between the meanings of "blessing" and "official" but see no difference at all between volunteering to do something, vs. being asked to do something.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                I would, actually. But I don't, know why? Because it doesn't bother me. The difference is a few dollars, and to make a big deal about it would be petty, at best.
                You would but you don't? Isn't that exactly what I said happens? Also, we're not always talking about a few dollars. Depending on the product price, we're talking 50%.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                In most cases, yes it does. People almost ALWAYS go out of their way to complain about something they don't like.
                No they don't. First, people don't ALWAYS do anything. And yes people MAY go out of their way to complain but from YEARS of being in online e-commerce, I can assure you that IF they complain, they WON'T come to you first. They'll go to Yelp, or on a forum, or to the BBB, or if they feel super burned, they'll just go away.

                Online vendors don't have a complaint desk or a return counter. You can not rely on customer complaints to determine levels of satisfaction.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                As for this so-called "lack of complaints", I know from personal experience that Mike L handles refunds, etc. personally for deal of the day WSO's.
                How does he handle refunds if he doesn't look at the customer data like he says? I must be missing a part of this.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                If there were complaints, Mike would either change it, or discontinue it completely.
                See you say this here, but then you contradict it in just a little while - I'll point it out when I get there.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                That's what he did, by the way, when he changed the name to Deal of the Day to avoid confusion.
                No, he changed it because he was asked to. He named it what he did to create confusion. Maybe not as a conscious thought, but he named it what he did in the first place in order to get the brand recognition. Period.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                DUH. It has already been explained in several ways. You get more customers than you normally would. And as SMS clearly stated, you can actually get MORE revenue.
                You can, but you might not. And you might get more SALES, but that might not translate into repeat CUSTOMERS especially if you're only drawing people that are looking for cheap deals.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                I thought everyone knew that's how business worked. :rolleyes:
                You're so cute.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                That's like saying anyone who opts in to get a free report ONLY wants free reports.
                Isn't it? If it's not all they want, why is the free report even offered? It's a bribe so you can give them something they want, in exchange for them doing something you want, namely giving other offers a try. I thought everyone knew that's how business worked.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Do you really want to argue against thousands of documented case studies where an individual was able to build their business this way?
                Show me the thousands of documented cases where individuals built businesses by taking their best-selling products, slashing the price in half, and then giving away 25% of that profit. Please.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                It's called a loss-leader, something that many fortune 500 companies practice. If they couldn't sell these people more products, why would they bother? BECAUSE IT WORKS!
                You don't make a loss leader by slashing the price of a best selling high-value product. You create a loss leader as a lower value version of your premium item. I know all about loss leaders. I used to run a $60 million a year e-commerce website.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                You would be annoyed at the fact that the seller tried to compensate you? Jeez, and I thought I was hard to please.
                I would be annoyed by the fact that your initial offer's pricing is revealed to be BS designed to take more of my money, because you obviously did not NEED to charge me what you did the first time. I can see the margin of the gouge. In the scenario described, you wouldn't need to compensate me at all if I hadn't been wronged in the first place.

                Admitting I need compensation in this case, is admitting that I was screwed. Offering compensation up front does not make it less of a screw-job. Mitigation is not reversal.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Jeez, using that argument, I could say that you are unethical because you failed to disclose any number of things.
                Me? How?

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                That would also make quite a few other people here (including BIG Mike) to be unethical.

                Think about it. How many companies do you know of will disclose the fact that eventually, they might run a special offer for their products?

                By the way, there is no guarantee that you will be selected for Deal of the Day. So a disclosure would be pointless.
                I'm not talking about disclosure at the point of sale. I'm talking about if you're running a WSO, which before it ends you cut the price in half. Would you then proactively contact all the customers who paid full price to offer them some compensation, or would you wait for them to contact you to ask? That's what I meant.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Wrong again, I'm afraid. The WSO forum, you are supposed to offer a better price than what the public at large gets. Simple as that.

                I'd advise you to stop misconstruing other people's words. This particular statement is a technicality caused by the English language, at best.
                Who is misconstruing whom here? Would it make it easier if I said "the best deal out there" = "the lowest price available" then? That's what I mean. They're equal in my mind, for the sake of this discussion.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                As I said. Not the "best deal out there", just a lower price than what the general public gets.
                Okay. But what we're talking about is how it gives some warriors a lower price than even other warriors in the exact same forum get. This is not the public at large we're even talking about. We're talking about the Warrior Special Offer being made LESS special for early buyers. How is that good?

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Also, it does not prohibit people from lowering their price. In fact, you could even say it is encouraged that we offer a lower price, due to the nature of the WSO forum.
                My exact point. You're supposed to offer a low price. But say I'm a vendor, and I'm hoping I get picked for a DotD, so I don't lower my price by as much as I normally would, because I still want to have some left over in case I get selected to get cut in half. The existence of the special-among-the-special is actually jacking with the prices available to the rest of the WSO board. Make sense now?


                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                It is the exact same thing. Sorry, but there is no validity to your argument here.You forget that we are running a business, not a charity. People will do what makes them money.
                The point of the WSO forum is not to make the most money, it's to give a special offer to an elite class due to mutual respect. I didn't forget jack. And I know people will do what makes them money - for example, have a confusingly named product that operates in such a way as to devalue the marketplace it was allegedly designed to serve. But you know, MAKE MONEY! That's what it's all about, WOO!

                Remember earlier when I said you were going to contradict yourself? Saying someone will change something if they get a few complaints, vs. we're in it to make money - those don't go together. If you're all about the money, you won't change until you're made to.

                Maybe you'll change it the first time you're asked, maybe it'll take more than that. But complaints ain't going to do it if the person is making money and already doesn't care for the customer.


                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                It doesn't mean you need to attack his practices either.
                I'd think of it more as arguing against rather than "attacking". That's called "discussion".

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Did you really just say that? If I were in Mike L's position, I WOULD consider this a personal attack.
                Your feelings and opinions are your right. But neither you nor I are in charge of what Mike feels is a personal attack or even what constitutes one. You might consider it one, but that doesn't make it so. I only ever spoke about my own facts and perceptions and haven't said one bad word about Mike. If you can find where I did, please let me know so I can fix it.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                That's your opinion. I'm not bothered when a marketer tests their prices to find the best one. I'm also not bothered when they run a sale. There's nothing wrong with that.
                Again, we're not talking about either of these things. We're talking about a very specific discount-within-a-discount situation, so bringing broader examples in don't fit. You're doing some kind of slippery slope here, when I'm not condemning sales or testing.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                How do you know that? I've seen best-selling books go on sale on Amazon all of the time. And believe or not, they do it for the privilege of going halfsies with amazon.
                Books aren't a good example, because books that don't sell get returned to the manufacturer, and are refunded and destroyed at a loss. So when a printed book is hot, you play a balancing act where you want to print as close to the exact number of copies you will sell as possible, and you play with the price to manage that. Prices on books drop when the sales drop, not when they're at their peak.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                I would too. It's extra exposure.
                If it's all about exposure, why wouldn't you just drop the price as low as you could go to begin with?

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Okay, how about every self-respecting company in the world? There is nothing wrong with the practice of offering a discount for a product. It happens all the time.
                Again, I'm not arguing against the principle of discounting at all.

                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                And it just so turns out, there are MANY bargain hunters (aka consumers) who LOVE this practice.

                If you were to present Deal of the Day to the average consumer, they would actually like the idea.
                Yeah, maybe. But we're talking SPECIFICALLY about the class of consumer who has BOUGHT and then been screwed by an immediate price drop while in the context of a place in which he is presumed to already be getting the lower price. If there is, in fact, an even LOWER price, how was I ever "special" in the first place? I was certainly not special enough to not overpay by double the first time around.

                This service benefits Lantz, and it MAY benefit the vendor, but it offers no benefit to the customer unless he waits to buy the cheaper product. Then he ONLY wants to buy cheaper product. Then product producers can only SELL cheap stuff, so they start making ONLY crappy stuff.

                Now I know the above is a slippery slope argument, but you seem to like those, so I put it in your terms. The entire concept of the service is detrimental to the integrity of the WSO forum conceptually. That's one issue. The other is the naming problem, which has arguably been resolved. The first issue still remains.
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              • Profile picture of the author SMS
                Before people start thinking or wondering if Razer Rage and I are one and the same person - I can assure that we are not.

                However, it seems that we think very much alike. :p

                Thanks for responding to this, Razer - you've done my job for me, and all that's left for me to say is...

                It looks like whatever Mike does he cannot win. Initially, the problem was that using 'WSO' implied that it was an official Warrior Forum award, and that posting a WSO for a product that is not yours breaks the Forum rules.

                Mike then voluntarily stopped the scheme and went back to the drawing board. After addressing those concerns, he relaunched it.

                Yet, people are still not happy & have raised a completely different set of issues!

                I wonder why?



                Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                Isn't it obvious? The difference is that Allen approved it. If it was official, Allen himself would have launched it.

                Is that clear enough for you?


                You misunderstood. He stopped when asked, voluntarily. He wasn't forced to stop. The reason that they started again under a different name was to avoid any confusion.

                Didn't you even read Mike L's posts?


                I would, actually. But I don't, know why? Because it doesn't bother me. The difference is a few dollars, and to make a big deal about it would be petty, at best.



                In most cases, yes it does. People almost ALWAYS go out of their way to complain about something they don't like.

                As for this so-called "lack of complaints", I know from personal experience that Mike L handles refunds, etc. personally for deal of the day WSO's.

                If there were complaints, Mike would either change it, or discontinue it completely.

                That's what he did, by the way, when he changed the name to Deal of the Day to avoid confusion.


                DUH. It has already been explained in several ways. You get more customers than you normally would. And as SMS clearly stated, you can actually get MORE revenue.

                I thought everyone knew that's how business worked. :rolleyes:

                That's like saying anyone who opts in to get a free report ONLY wants free reports.

                Do you really want to argue against thousands of documented case studies where an individual was able to build their business this way?

                It's called a loss-leader, something that many fortune 500 companies practice. If they couldn't sell these people more products, why would they bother? BECAUSE IT WORKS!


                You would be annoyed at the fact that the seller tried to compensate you? Jeez, and I thought I was hard to please.

                Jeez, using that argument, I could say that you are unethical because you failed to disclose any number of things.

                That would also make quite a few other people here (including BIG Mike) to be unethical.

                Think about it. How many companies do you know of will disclose the fact that eventually, they might run a special offer for their products?

                By the way, there is no guarantee that you will be selected for Deal of the Day. So a disclosure would be pointless.
                Wrong again, I'm afraid. The WSO forum, you are supposed to offer a better price than what the public at large gets. Simple as that.

                I'd advise you to stop misconstruing other people's words. This particular statement is a technicality caused by the English language, at best.



                As I said. Not the "best deal out there", just a lower price than what the general public gets.

                Also, it does not prohibit people from lowering their price. In fact, you could even say it is encouraged that we offer a lower price, due to the nature of the WSO forum.



                It is the exact same thing. Sorry, but there is no validity to your argument here.You forget that we are running a business, not a charity. People will do what makes them money.

                And again, there is no guarantee that this will happen.

                It doesn't mean you need to attack his practices either.



                Did you really just say that? If I were in Mike L's position, I WOULD consider this a personal attack.



                That's your opinion. I'm not bothered when a marketer tests their prices to find the best one. I'm also not bothered when they run a sale. There's nothing wrong with that.

                How do you know that? I've seen best-selling books go on sale on Amazon all of the time. And believe or not, they do it for the privilege of going halfsies with amazon.

                I would too. It's extra exposure.

                Okay, how about every self-respecting company in the world? There is nothing wrong with the practice of offering a discount for a product. It happens all the time.

                And it just so turns out, there are MANY bargain hunters (aka consumers) who LOVE this practice.

                If you were to present Deal of the Day to the average consumer, they would actually like the idea.
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                • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
                  Originally Posted by SMS View Post

                  Before people thinking or wondering if Razer Rage and I are one and the same person - I can assure that we are not.
                  I don't see how. I mean, you guys are avatars.

                  No name, background, nothing.

                  I don't even understand why anyone wants to argue with one. (an avatar that is).

                  Half of the imaginary people here at the forum could all be the same person for all I know.

                  Just an observation.
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                  • Profile picture of the author SMS
                    Strange things happen and they seem to happen especially to me. I'll say no more.

                    Originally Posted by Matt Maiden View Post

                    I don't see how. I mean, you guys are avatars.

                    No name, background, nothing.

                    I don't even understand why anyone wants to argue with one. (an avatar that is).

                    Half of the imaginary people here at the forum could all be the same person for all I know.

                    Just an observation.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                  Originally Posted by SMS View Post


                  It looks like whatever Mike does he cannot win. Initially, the problem was that using 'WSO' implied that it was an official Warrior Forum award, and that posting a WSO for a product that is not yours breaks the Forum rules.

                  Mike then voluntarily stopped the scheme and went back to the drawing board. After addressing those concerns, he relaunched it.

                  Yet, people are still not happy & have raised a completely different set of issues!

                  I wonder why?
                  If you look I raised a question which hasn't been answered. How is the Deal of the Day a wso and not a classified ad?

                  Up to now, Mike L has submitted all the Deal of the Day himself, and the rule is

                  1. All WSO's Must Be Something You Created. A Product Of Your Own. (A package of ebooks someone threw together is not considered a product and will be deleted) This is completely self explanatory and not up for debate. If you yourself did not create the product do not post it here.

                  Mike L didn't create these products, he is a JV partner.

                  If other people decided to do WSO as JV partners they would either be deleted or moved to the Classified.

                  However, you look at the deal of the day it is nothing more than a JV deal it isn't a WSO and shouldn't be posted there.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                    Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                    If you look I raised a question which hasn't been answered. How is the Deal of the Day a wso and not a classified ad?

                    Up to now, Mike L has submitted all the Deal of the Day himself, and the rule is

                    1. All WSO's Must Be Something You Created. A Product Of Your Own. (A package of ebooks someone threw together is not considered a product and will be deleted) This is completely self explanatory and not up for debate. If you yourself did not create the product do not post it here.

                    Mike L didn't create these products, he is a JV partner.

                    If other people decided to do WSO as JV partners they would either be deleted or moved to the Classified.

                    However, you look at the deal of the day it is nothing more than a JV deal it isn't a WSO and shouldn't be posted there.
                    You are right, Bev. This was one of the initial problems with the way "WSO of the Day" was originally run. I am in no way denying the fact that the way it was done could be considered against the rules as stated above.

                    However, that is not what this discussion is (or should be) about. "WSO of the Day" as it was created no longer exists. The 2 main concerns that were brought up previously are no longer applicable.

                    Really, I think the only question that is valid here is this: Should it be ok for Warriorplus to promote WSO Pro listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers.?

                    If you look at the issue that way, can anyone really object to that?

                    Mike
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                    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                      You are right, Bev. This was one of the initial problems with the way "WSO of the Day" was originally run. I am in no way denying the fact that the way it was done could be considered against the rules as stated above.

                      However, that is not what this discussion is (or should be) about. "WSO of the Day" as it was created no longer exists. The 2 main concerns that were brought up previously are no longer applicable.

                      Really, I think the only question that is valid here is this: Should it be ok for Warriorplus to promote WSO Pro listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers.?

                      If you look at the issue that way, can anyone really object to that?

                      Mike
                      I think the issue is the JV and subsequent reduction in price occurs after the WSO is already running. I think if the WSO were as a JV from the outset, for the duration of the WSO it wouldn't be an issue.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                      Really, I think the only question that is valid here is this: Should it be ok for Warriorplus to promote WSO Pro listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers.?
                      If you look at the issue that way, can anyone really object to that?
                      Mike
                      Mike, offering to promote a WSO for a day in itself is not and would not be a problem for anyone.

                      The problem has been and will continue to be that the service offers a discount for a day on a product that was already supposed to be discounted specifically for the market it is targeted towards.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                        I think the issue is the JV and subsequent reduction in price occurs after the WSO is already running. I think if the WSO were as a JV from the outset, for the duration of the WSO it wouldn't be an issue.
                        Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                        Mike, offering to promote a WSO for a day in itself is not and would not be a problem for anyone.

                        The problem has been and will continue to be that the service offers a discount for a day on a product that was already supposed to be discounted specifically for the market it is targeted towards.
                        Thanks for both of your comments.

                        My interpretation of what you are saying is this: Both of you think the issue is related to the WSO seller being able to lower their price temporarily.

                        So, a WSO seller should NOT be allowed to lower their price after they created the WSO, then?

                        I am guessing you are really not saying that, but I wanted to make a point. So, the real issue is the combination of those things that bothers you, but not them individually? Fair enough, and your opinion is dually noted.

                        Mike
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                        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                          Thanks for both of your comments.

                          My interpretation of what you are saying is this: Both of you think the issue is related to the WSO seller being able to lower their price temporarily.

                          So, a WSO seller should NOT be allowed to lower their price after they created the WSO, then?

                          I am guessing you are really not saying that, but I wanted to make a point. So, the real issue is the combination of those things that bothers you, but not them individually? Fair enough, and your opinion is dually noted.

                          Mike
                          Mike, in the past, a seller who lowered their price did so for one reason - they were not making sales or making very few. While I'm sure not everyone did this, it was fairly usual for the seller to refund the difference to those who first bought in at the higher price.

                          In this case, I do not believe a WSO seller should be allowed to temporarily lower the price and then raise it again for the purpose of running a one day, special, special offer.

                          I also think you need to remove any association with it as some kind of extra deal from anywhere - especially using the Warrior moniker in any context.
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                          • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                            Mike, in the past, a seller who lowered their price did so for one reason - they were not making sales or making very few. While I'm sure not everyone did this, it was fairly usual for the seller to refund the difference to those who first bought in at the higher price.
                            I think you are making a bit of an assumption, though, Mike. We can't possibly know the reasoning for everyone doing what they do. However, your logic is pretty sound there, and I do agree that is a common reason to lower a price.

                            But, I have lowered prices of things for various reasons myself, not necessarily because it was not selling well. I am sure you have done the same.

                            As you mentioned earlier, you have offered coupons and discounts for your products. Did you really email everyone who bought without the coupon and gave them their money back?

                            A good example is restaurants. There are often coupons out in circulation, usually with some sort of expiration date. But, not everyone has those coupons. If a guy in front of me uses a coupon, should the restaurant then let me get the same price he did when I come up to pay? I mean, it's not fair that he paid less than me right, even in the same restaurant on the same day! Should I be upset at the restaurant for that?

                            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                            In this case, I do not believe a WSO seller should be allowed to temporarily lower the price and then raise it again for the purpose of running a one day, special, special offer.
                            I cannot argue with your belief Mike, but to me that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why should someone not be allowed to change their price as they see fit?

                            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                            I also think you need to remove any association with it as some kind of extra deal from anywhere - especially using the Warrior moniker in any context.
                            It is simply a designation that is chosen to distinguish the offer from other products/services that may be offered. Since my intention was to run it daily, "of the day" seemed to fit well. Sure, I could call it "CapsLock" or "Applesauce", but that just doesn't make too much sense, does it?

                            Thanks for the comments, Mike. I have nothing against you having your opinion and sharing it here. I do hope you can see how I could have seen some of your earlier comments as a personal attack, or at least bordering on one.

                            All the best.

                            Mike

                            PS: About the "complainer" thing for earlier, I wasn't actually singling you out there. And, I did not have the opportunity to respond to your comments before the 2 other threads in question were locked. Believe me, I wanted to.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

                        I have to admit, I was under the impression that those WSOs chosen for the deal of the day were vetted. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who thought so (just re-read the thread).
                        I thought the same thing, Tina, and was very disappointed when the only WSO of the Day I bought taught techniques that relied on copyright violations.

                        Originally Posted by SMS
                        Before people thinking or wondering if Razer Rage and I are one and the same person - I can assure that we are not.
                        Does anyone else find this comment...curious?
                        Signature

                        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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                        • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by SMS
                          Before people thinking or wondering if Razer Rage and I are one and the same person - I can assure that we are not.

                          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                          Does anyone else find this comment...curious?
                          Yup, the horse is pretty much out of the barn at this stage...

                          I've never seen them in the room at the same time, either.

                          Coincidence? I think not...

                          KJ
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                    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                      Hi Mike

                      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                      Really, I think the only question that is valid here is this: Should it be ok for Warriorplus to promote WSO Pro listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers.?
                      But then wouldn't an equally valid question be: Should it be OK for DLGuard to promote WSO/DLG listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers?

                      However you phrase it, surely it's still a JV?


                      Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                        Hi Mike



                        But then wouldn't an equally valid question be: Should it be OK for DLGuard to promote WSO/DLG listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers?

                        However you phrase it, surely it's still a JV?


                        Frank
                        Yes, it is exactly that Frank. And, I don't see why that would be a problem.

                        Mike
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                    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                      Really, I think the only question that is valid here is this: Should it be ok for Warriorplus to promote WSO Pro listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers.?
                      If it's okay for you, it should be okay for me to do. If so, I would like to make you an offer. I hear that Warriorplus sells like hotcakes. I'll take your word for it that it's good. I don't need to check it out myself.

                      So I want to make a WSO and offer membership to Warriorplus at half-price. I'll give you half of what I make on the deal. We'll call it "Warrior Special Warrior Special Offer Offer".

                      Think of all the extra exposure you'll get, plus you'll make a lot more sales. None of the people who paid full price will be mad, and if they are, they won't complain, so we don't even have to worry about it.

                      I'm being cheeky, but if this is what you're asking, would you do this with your own products?
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                      • Profile picture of the author dseisner
                        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                        If it's okay for you, it should be okay for me to do. If so, I would like to make you an offer. I hear that Warriorplus sells like hotcakes. I'll take your word for it that it's good. I don't need to check it out myself.

                        So I want to make a WSO and offer membership to Warriorplus at half-price. I'll give you half of what I make on the deal. We'll call it "Warrior Special Warrior Special Offer Offer".

                        Think of all the extra exposure you'll get, plus you'll make a lot more sales. None of the people who paid full price will be mad, and if they are, they won't complain, so we don't even have to worry about it.

                        I'm being cheeky, but if this is what you're asking, would you do this with your own products?

                        Dude, your cheekyness invalidates your entire argument. Mike is the one with the list of people who have specifically asked for notifications about deals of the day. Do you have a list of people who are specifically waiting for you to let them know when WSO Pro goes on discount? I willing to bet not. Plus, even if you did, can't Mike reach that target audience whenever he wants without splitting the profits with you? There is clearly a benefit for a seller to sell a WP deal of the day because Mike is able to reach a wider audience who is specifically waiting for this kind of deal. That's why they give him half the dough.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                          Originally Posted by dseisner View Post

                          Dude, your cheekyness invalidates your entire argument.
                          How so? I find humor is a wonderful way to make a point, especially when discussing an issue that some people are taking personally. I find levity maintains civility. I can link you to some wonderful comedians that use humor as a way to get people to think if you're interested. Bill Hicks comes to mind.

                          But maybe you didn't mean that simply adding humor negated it, in which case I don't understand.

                          Originally Posted by dseisner View Post

                          Mike is the one with the list of people who have specifically asked for notifications about deals of the day. Do you have a list of people who are specifically waiting for you to let them know when WSO Pro goes on discount? I willing to bet not. Plus, even if you did, can't Mike reach that target audience whenever he wants without splitting the profits with you? There is clearly a benefit for a seller to sell a WP deal of the day because Mike is able to reach a wider audience who is specifically waiting for this kind of deal. That's why they give him half the dough.
                          No, I don't have a list of people who might buy my product except for how they only want it if it's half-off the first time it's presented to them. You are correct. The reason I asked that specifically of Mike is that it brings HIS customers into the discussion, rather than us just talking about "people who buy WSOs".

                          He seems to have got what I was saying, so my cleverness has been adequately rewarded.

                          And I never EVER said there wasn't any benefit for the seller in all this. I said it was detrimental to prior customers, and encouraged a downward trend within the environment the offer was made. Is the short-term benefit that Lantz and the vendor enjoy worth the overall erosion that I feel like this might cause in time? No, I don't believe so. I don't even think it's really to the vendor's or Lantz's long-term benefit either for the same reason.

                          You know what would kick ass? If the "Deal of the Day" stayed the same price, was selected on merit, and then Mike threw in a bonus of his own to sweeten the pot. That's a moniker that means something. That's a deal that ADDS value instead of REMOVES cost. They're not the same thing.

                          They also reward different kinds of people with different kinds of behavior. It rewards vendors for excellence with additional exposure and a free bonus. It rewards customer who actually WANT good stuff. It rewards Mike because he gets to build a list of people who want the BEST and WANT to pay to get it.

                          Now if Mike had this thing and it was in no way connected to the WSO forum, THEN I'd say super. I have a product that's sucking wind, let me slash the price and go to Mike, make a deal and maybe we can both make some money on something the market isn't into at this price.

                          But because of the way it's attached to the WF and the way it is executed and assembled is going to be predictably problematic. There is NO OTHER POSSIBILITY I can think out other than a decline when you select based on sales volume, and then cut the price in half paired with scarcity. That titillates the buying behavior of unsophisticated consumers, but doesn't place that reward in the places that will benefit the overall community. In fact, it rewards qualities that will degrade it over time.
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                          • Profile picture of the author dseisner
                            Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                            How so? I find humor is a wonderful way to make a point, especially when discussing an issue that some people are taking personally. I find levity maintains civility. I can link you to some wonderful comedians that use humor as a way to get people to think if you're interested. Bill Hicks comes to mind.

                            But maybe you didn't mean that simply adding humor negated it, in which case I don't understand.



                            No, I don't have a list of people who might buy my product except for how they only want it if it's half-off the first time it's presented to them. You are correct. The reason I asked that specifically of Mike is that it brings HIS customers into the discussion, rather than us just talking about "people who buy WSOs".

                            He seems to have got what I was saying, so my cleverness has been adequately rewarded.

                            And I never EVER said there wasn't any benefit for the seller in all this. I said it was detrimental to prior customers, and encouraged a downward trend within the environment the offer was made. Is the short-term benefit that Lantz and the vendor enjoy worth the overall erosion that I feel like this might cause in time? No, I don't believe so. I don't even think it's really to the vendor's or Lantz's long-term benefit either for the same reason.

                            You know what would kick ass? If the "Deal of the Day" stayed the same price, was selected on merit, and then Mike threw in a bonus of his own to sweeten the pot. That's a moniker that means something. That's a deal that ADDS value instead of REMOVES cost. They're not the same thing.

                            They also reward different kinds of people with different kinds of behavior. It rewards vendors for excellence with additional exposure and a free bonus. It rewards customer who actually WANT good stuff. It rewards Mike because he gets to build a list of people who want the BEST and WANT to pay to get it.

                            Now if Mike had this thing and it was in no way connected to the WSO forum, THEN I'd say super. I have a product that's sucking wind, let me slash the price and go to Mike, make a deal and maybe we can both make some money on something the market isn't into at this price.

                            But because of the way it's attached to the WF and the way it is executed and assembled is going to be predictably problematic. There is NO OTHER POSSIBILITY I can think out other than a decline when you select based on sales volume, and then cut the price in half paired with scarcity. That titillates the buying behavior of unsophisticated consumers, but doesn't place that reward in the places that will benefit the overall community. In fact, it rewards qualities that will degrade it over time.

                            I have to admit, that while I don't agree with everything you say, you present excellent arguments and are clearly very smart. But overall, I think you are assigning a degradation (WP of the day to the WF) when it doesn't exist, at least IMO. If I saw more proof, maybe I would agree.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                        If it's okay for you, it should be okay for me to do. If so, I would like to make you an offer. I hear that Warriorplus sells like hotcakes. I'll take your word for it that it's good. I don't need to check it out myself.

                        So I want to make a WSO and offer membership to Warriorplus at half-price. I'll give you half of what I make on the deal. We'll call it "Warrior Special Warrior Special Offer Offer".

                        Think of all the extra exposure you'll get, plus you'll make a lot more sales. None of the people who paid full price will be mad, and if they are, they won't complain, so we don't even have to worry about it.

                        I'm being cheeky, but if this is what you're asking, would you do this with your own products?
                        Colin,

                        You may be being cheeky, but your make a fair assessment of the situation. Without the idea of you creating your own WSO to promote my offer (which, as we discussed, would be against rule #1), I think everything you said is acceptable.

                        Is there anything wrong with you making that offer? No. Do I get to choose whether or not to accept the offer? Yes.

                        Sounds fair to me.

                        Mike
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                        • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                          Colin,

                          You may be being cheeky, but your make a fair assessment of the situation. Without the idea of you creating your own WSO to promote my offer (which, as we discussed, would be against rule #1), I think everything you said is acceptable.

                          Is there anything wrong with you making that offer? No. Do I get to choose whether or not to accept the offer? Yes.

                          Sounds fair to me.

                          Mike
                          Let me bring up another question. If you were selling your WSO for $49, and Allen approached you and said he would be interesting in promoting your offer, but feels it would be better to price it for less, would you really be all pissed off that Allen asked? Would you say no?

                          Whether you said yes or no is not really that important, because you had a choice. It was entirely up to you. And, I am willing to be you would say yes, anyway, because it would be foolish not to.

                          Mike
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                          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                            Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                            Let me bring up another question. If you were selling your WSO for $49, and Allen approached you and said he would be interesting in promoting your offer, but feels it would be better to price it for less, would you really be all pissed off that Allen asked? Would you say no?

                            Whether you said yes or no is not really that important, because you had a choice. It was entirely up to you. And, I am willing to be you would say yes, anyway, because it would be foolish not to.

                            Mike
                            Well, first of all, it IS his sandbox - not yours, not mine.

                            Second, if Allen ever gave me a suggestion on pricing, I would take it in a heartbeat.

                            Third, you didn't say he would lower the price for one day only to raise it back the next.

                            Finally, I wouldn't raise the price back up at all.

                            All the best,
                            Michael
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                          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                            Let me bring up another question. If you were selling your WSO for $49, and Allen approached you and said he would be interesting in promoting your offer, but feels it would be better to price it for less, would you really be all pissed off that Allen asked? Would you say no?

                            Whether you said yes or no is not really that important, because you had a choice. It was entirely up to you. And, I am willing to be you would say yes, anyway, because it would be foolish not to.

                            Mike
                            The difference Mike is that Allen owns the forum - if he feels it's acceptable, then by all means that's his call. What you're doing is exerting influence as a 3rd party over the WSO forum, which I don't think is very cool.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                              The difference Mike is that Allen owns the forum - if he feels it's acceptable, then by all means that's his call. What you're doing is exerting influence as a 3rd party over the WSO forum, which I don't think is very cool.
                              You are right, it is his forum. And, I absolutely respect that and him. You didn't seem me starting threads calling him names and complaining to everyone on the forum because he asked me to stop "WSO of the Day" did you?

                              I do not think I am exerting influence over the WSO forum at all. It's like saying because you asked a seller on Clickbank to give a better price to your buyers or give a temporary price reduction while you promote it, that you are somehow exerting influence on Clickbank.

                              Remember, WarriorPlus is my website. And while I often consult with Allen on new features and ideas, ultimately it is my decision on what I do on my site. If I want to promote the offer of a user on my site and they give consent, is there really something so wrong with that?

                              Mike
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                              • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                                Remember, WarriorPlus is my website. And while I often consult with Allen on new features and ideas, ultimately it is my decision on what I do on my site. If I want to promote the offer of a user on my site and they give consent, is there really something so wrong with that?

                                Mike
                                Mike L now I'm totally confused. Are you saying the Deal of the Day is on your website which is seen by the general public, if so this invalidates it being a wso.

                                How many WSO have you seen where the person has been asked how is this a special offer when the same price is seen on their website?

                                I know I have 2 pages on my website, one for the general public and one which isn't indexed for the WSO.

                                Bev
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                              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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                                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


                                I do not think I am exerting influence over the WSO forum at all.

                                Mike
                                Hi Mike,


                                There is an implied relationship with Allen. So yes, that does influence the wso forum. It influences the buyers and sellers.

                                People listen to what Allen recommends. He doesn't do it frequently(he should be doing it more just for the pain of running this joint haha) but when he sends out a pm he makes a lot of sales simply because of whom he is.

                                Sellers will sign up for your service because they know Allen's recommendations will sell a TON of products. At least they will think they may be jv'ing with Allen and the forum. I know I thought people were jv'ing with Allen when your WSO of the day came out.

                                You have been in this business long enough to know this.

                                I thought you and Allen were doing this service together. It wasn't until recently that I found out otherwise.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                              The problem for me from the very start is that I strongly believe that Mike Lantz has been unfairly singled out (and not by you by the way).
                              Why is anyone persisting with this? I have read the whole thread and didn't see one person saying anything negative about Mike Lantz personally. Yes, they do not like certain of his actions but that is not the same as being "singled out".

                              You can disagree or disapprove of someone's business practices and still think they're a hell of a nice guy. In fact, several who disapprove of the current practice did state that they like Mike.

                              The "injustice" of it all has been beat to death - isn't it time to let that particular horse rest in peace?

                              Tina
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                          • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                            Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                            Let me bring up another question. If you were selling your WSO for $49, and Allen approached you and said he would be interesting in promoting your offer, but feels it would be better to price it for less, would you really be all pissed off that Allen asked? Would you say no?

                            Whether you said yes or no is not really that important, because you had a choice. It was entirely up to you. And, I am willing to be you would say yes, anyway, because it would be foolish not to.

                            Mike
                            The difference Mike is that this is Allens forum. He is the boss around here and he makes the rules, so what he says goes. You are just a normal forum member just like the rest of us. Unless every single member of this forum is allowed to offer the same deal to every other forum member then it isn't fair to everyone else that one person does it, especially when it was done without express consent by the forum owner.

                            Look, I will admit that last year I considered creating some services like yours, I even send you a PM asking about how you handled the auto PM from your website.

                            However, when I PM'd Allen I didn't recieve any response from him. Since he didn't respond either way I took for granted that I wasn't given permission to do what I had planned and scrapped the idea instead of taking silence as implied permission.

                            Most of this boils down to the fact that you enacted some parts of your processes without express consent and it was also done in such a way that any resonable person would believe that you did have consent and approval or you wouldn't have been able to use the Warrior name.

                            Using Allen as an example doesn't work at all since its his house and his rules, not ours.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
                            Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                            Let me bring up another question. If you were selling your WSO for $49, and Allen approached you and said he would be interesting in promoting your offer, but feels it would be better to price it for less, would you really be all pissed off that Allen asked? Would you say no?

                            Whether you said yes or no is not really that important, because you had a choice. It was entirely up to you. And, I am willing to be you would say yes, anyway, because it would be foolish not to.
                            Mike - the difference is that Allen owns the forum. You, on the other hand, do not. Therefore it's apples to oranges.

                            Consider that you are taking advantage of your unique positioning with WSO Pro to implement a program (WSO/WP of the Day) that creates a false perception of endorsement and has a number of Warriors concerned. Your main argument seems to be "no one has told me I can't, so it must not be against the rules." I'm trying hard to find your self-professed goodwill in that approach.

                            You're willing to debate ticky-tack issues with folks, but you still haven't answered my question from page 3 of this thread regarding your ultimate intent with WSO/WP of the Day. Not that you're required to respond of course... but I still find it interesting that you haven't done so.

                            Ken

                            Note: For me and most others on this thread, this isn't personal about you. It's about the principle of the matter.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                              Originally Posted by Ken Preuss View Post

                              Mike - the difference is that Allen owns the forum. You, on the other hand, do not. Therefore it's apples to oranges.
                              It's not really apples and oranges, though, Ken. What is being discussed here is the merits of a sale where the WSO seller discounts their price on a WSO. Whether Allen, Big Mike, or myself promotes such an offer is not really relevant to the the actual issue.

                              But, of course I agree that Allen can do whatever he wants with his forum and his marketplace.

                              Originally Posted by Ken Preuss View Post

                              Consider that you are taking advantage of your unique positioning with WSO Pro to implement a program (WSO/WP of the Day) that creates a false perception of endorsement and has a number of Warriors concerned. Your main argument seems to be "no one has told me I can't, so it must not be against the rules." I'm trying hard to find your self-professed goodwill in that approach.
                              A false perception may have been created, but it certainly wasn't my intent to do so. I was simply leveraging my existing WSO Pro business in a way that made sense.

                              Originally Posted by Ken Preuss View Post

                              You're willing to debate ticky-tack issues with folks, but you still haven't answered my question from page 3 of this thread regarding your ultimate intent with WSO/WP of the Day. Not that you're required to respond of course... but I still find it interesting that you haven't done so.
                              I don't think I have been debating "ticky-tack" issues. My goal was to simply get to the heart of the matter, and I believe that has happened.

                              I didn't respond to a lot of posts because there are frankly way too many. However, I do believe I have addressed most peoples points and questions. It is kind of weird question because you quoted the sentence I have for my intent in the same reply you asked the question in.

                              I created the Deal of the Day offer because it felt like a win-win-win situation, and that it was a logical extension off of the WSO Pro service. The buyer wins by getting a great deal on a good product. The seller wins by making more sales and thus more revenues. And WarriorPlus (and myself) wins by generating additional revenue as well.

                              I think I have been pretty clear why I started the service all along. I am not really sure why YOU think I started the service, or what you are trying to get at, but apparently it is not what you think it is.

                              Mike
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                              • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
                                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                                I created the Deal of the Day offer because it felt like a win-win-win situation, and that it was a logical extension off of the WSO Pro service. The buyer wins by getting a great deal on a good product. The seller wins by making more sales and thus more revenues. And WarriorPlus (and myself) wins by generating additional revenue as well.
                                Hi Mike,

                                I applaud your professional demeanor on this thread, btw, but your statement doesn't address the greater good of the Marketplace (WSO forum).

                                The implications to date, whether intentional or not, have been for the most part, that the WSOotD/WPOotD is a sanctioned offer. I know by reading your responses here that is not what you intended, but that is how many of us perceived it.

                                If I went to eBay and saw an 'eBay Special of the Day', or went to Amazon and saw an 'Amazon Special of the Day', no one would think I was out of line believing those specials were anything but official in nature.

                                Same applies here.

                                I think the nature of your offer need to be a little more transparent to avoid the confusion that is surfacing here.

                                Btw, did you know there was a thread about you being the owner of the WF? I only mention that to put the name of your offer into perspective. It had that kind of effect.

                                Anyway, it's nice watching you be a gentleman and addressing folks concerns in a professional manner. Thanks for allowing me my two cents here...

                                KJ
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                                • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                                  Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

                                  Btw, did you know there was a thread about you being the owner of the WF? I only mention that to put the name of your offer into perspective. It had that kind of effect.

                                  KJ
                                  And that person was selected for a WSO of the day and proudly admitted they had a JV with Mike L the owner of the forum.

                                  SMS I know you said you're out of here, but you should also remember some of the WSO of the Day were scams, telling you to do things which were illegal, all of which could have been spotted if the product had been reviewed as said in the wso
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Gee S
                                    Hi Bev,

                                    I just thought I'd pitch in a point of view on the scam issue.

                                    I know it is difficult to manually review WSO's in the first place by the mods or whoever approves them but should these scam products not be WSO's in the first place?

                                    Maybe if they cannot be reviewed manually before they get approved before going on the WSO board, we as a community should do more to "out" these products.

                                    My only point is that these products shouldn't be on the WSO board in the first place. That would then stop any scammy products being DotD, and would help clean up the forum to a certain extent.

                                    Gee

                                    Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                                    And that person was selected for a WSO of the day and proudly admitted they had a JV with Mike L the owner of the forum.

                                    SMS I know you said you're out of here, but you should also remember some of the WSO of the Day were scams, telling you to do things which were illegal, all of which could have been spotted if the product had been reviewed as said in the wso
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                                      Originally Posted by Gee Sanghera View Post

                                      Hi Bev,

                                      I just thought I'd pitch in a point of view on the scam issue.

                                      I know it is difficult to manually review WSO's in the first place by the mods or whoever approves them but should these scam products not be WSO's in the first place?

                                      Maybe if they cannot be reviewed manually before they get approved before going on the WSO board, we as a community should do more to "out" these products.

                                      My only point is that these products shouldn't be on the WSO board in the first place. That would then stop any scammy products being DotD, and would help clean up the forum to a certain extent.

                                      Gee
                                      So what you're saying is that in addition to supplying the DotD program with branding, products to sell, customers to sell them to, all the data involved, and ongoing leads, we as a community should also police those same offers so Mike doesn't accidentally give us an arbitrary price cut on a scammy item?

                                      Note that this is not a dig at Lantz, I'm just making a point.

                                      Also, I don't want to be the one to police them. Do you? Go try. I just don't buy the ones that look scammy. If everyone did the same thing, the scammers would go away, or at least thin out. That's called economics.

                                      The problem is when there's a 3rd party that can potentially influence the marketplace through perception and position. Now, the intent of that third party is irrelevant as long as the influence is real, and it is in this case. It's been proven.

                                      Now we're no longer subject to the laws of supply and demand, because it's being artificially manipulated. Some of the issues about that have been addressed, some still are being discussed.

                                      If you want to make it be a badge that says "Mike Lantz's Best Seller Price Cut of the Day" that's a more accurate and less confusing label.

                                      But I digress - the issue is that BECAUSE of this kind of 3rd party influence, the self-policing becomes harder, because its very purpose is to make some products seem more special than the rest, and imply that this is due to some sort of approval system.

                                      In reality, those products are special ONLY because they are Best Sellers selected by Mike Lantz to get a price cut in exchange for halfsies and additional promo to his list.

                                      Again, if you call it what it is, it probably drastically cuts down on the manipulation factor, because it can exert ACCURATE influence rather than smuggling any into the equation using misleading nomenclature, association, relevance, quality etc.

                                      But then again, I'm sure Mike will tell you that every change he's made to this offering had most likely reduced its effectiveness. A lot of that (in my opinion) has to do with the whole system rewarding volume with a reduction in cost. If the system rewarded quality with added value, then it would ALREADY be doing what you're suggesting what we citizens should try to do for him.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                        In spite of all the example of "but what if" given, the perception of a problem seems to boil down to only two points

                                        The first is clearly defined in the quote below.

                                        The problem is when there's a 3rd party that can potentially influence the marketplace through perception and position. Now, the intent of that third party is irrelevant as long as the influence is real, and it is in this case. It's been proven.
                                        The second is the idea that people might buy a WSO and then later see the same WSO offered at a lower price.

                                        Seems to me there's an easy answer. If the deal of the day only applied to NEW WSO's at the time they were launched, there would be no one to complain "I bought it yesterday at a higher price". Of course you couldn't refer to sales stats to choose one - but shouldn't be that hard to vet them. In fact, basing the "deals" on the members rep and the feedback from former WSO's wouldn't be a bad idea, would it?

                                        If the offer was stated so that people realized "this is a special JV deal with WarriorPro" - it wouldn't appear to be "recommending this product above others".

                                        In spite of all the argument I think surely there's a way to offer a special deal without giving the impression of "higher quality" or "recommended by WF" and without angering previous buyers.

                                        kay
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                                        Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                        Apparently, you missed this post: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...oderators.html

                                        And if you don't want to help fight scammers in the WSO board, then guess what? No one is forcing you to do so. So there's no need to complain about it.

                                        It isn't fair to expect Mike to single handedly catch every scammer in the WSO forum, if that's what you're suggesting.

                                        As he said, he basis his decisions for Deal of the Day on a variety of factors, including reviews.

                                        All things considered, I'd say that Mike does a pretty good job.
                                        From now on, I'm just going to go ahead and excuse you specifically from my comments when I post, because you seem to like missing the point on purpose. And it really makes my eye twitch.

                                        Specifically that you needed to snip my quote above right at the part where I said:

                                        "Note that this is not a dig at Lantz, I'm just making a point. "

                                        And also, that was clearly not a complaint, but rather a response, to a person that WAS NOT YOU. Jeez, are you 3 guys now? If you want to quote me to respond, do it in context or keep your fingers in your pockets instead of typing and trying to stir beef where there is none.

                                        Also, the thread you linked to is about moderating discussion, not policing products. I have no obligation to police the products. Allen gets $20 a pop, and I want some of that if I need to be in the WSOs checking.

                                        I would say that sometimes you can't even judge a book by its cover, or in this case, a hyperbole-laden sales letter. In a lot of cases, you need to have the product in hand before you can tell if it's bunk or a scam or illegal.

                                        But I'm not buying them, and I'm not promoting them as an affiliate or JV so I don't have to vet squat. Especially not for free.

                                        But Mike IS. Ask the FTC if they think Mike has an obligation to perform due diligence before JVing on a product. Go on. Ask them.

                                        Mike doesn't have an obligation to do jack in the WSO forum, same as me. But he most certainly DOES have a legal and fiduciary obligation once he's talking money. This part is not merely my opinion, but is in fact, the law.

                                        I can't make him do it. I'm not even saying he has to.

                                        It's his choice to VOLUNTARILY do it. (Sorry, couldn't help it.)

                                        All things considered, Mike does a good job at picking the products hs research says will make him the most money with the least effort. That's all Mike has done a good job at in that case. Not even Mike is arguing with that.

                                        AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. THIS IS NOT A DIG AT MIKE. HE IS A GROWNUP WHO CAN MAKE HIS OWN DECISIONS. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. DO YOU HEAR ME RAZER/SMS?
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                                          Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                          By the way. If you post in a public forum, then it means that ANYONE can reply to your post, whether it's addressed to them specifically or not. You might not like that, but you'll just have to deal with it.
                                          Which brings to mind an old quote:

                                          Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should.

                                          With that said I'm going to bow out of here and do something meaningful... play tickle monster with my kids.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                                          Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                          You know, I ALMOST heard you. Just about. But you're not quite there yet. Maybe if you yell just a LITTLE louder, you might come through a bit more clearly.
                                          Bigger letters don't actually make louder noises then smaller ones.

                                          Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                          I don't know why you're calling my SMS though...
                                          How do you know I didn't mean both you and SMS separately? I can think of one reason why you automatically assumed that I was calling you both names. (Hint: it's because the statement I quoted from you is a lie - you know exactly why I'm calling you that.)

                                          Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

                                          By the way. If you post in a public forum, then it means that ANYONE can reply to your post, whether it's addressed to them specifically or not. You might not like that, but you'll just have to deal with it.

                                          Sorry if you missed the disclaimer when you signed up...
                                          I know, I just get annoyed when I'm using allegory to have an intelligent discussion with someone specific and then you quote me out of context as if I was speaking literally, and then proceed to act as though I'm still talking about Mike and how good or bad he is, even though I could not have made a more clear statement that such was not my intent. It was literally a molecular sentence, with only one possible meaning. "Note: This is not a dig at Mike." If you reply without taking that sentence into consideration, your response is literally meaningless, because you're responding to something no one even said.

                                          Anyone CAN reply to my post, but you didn't. You quoted part of it and omitted some, which put MEANING into what I said that was never there.

                                          Since no one was even talking about what you were talking about, I just thought you were confused. So I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't talking to you, so you didn't have to worry about reading what I was saying, and continuing to misunderstand it and get as upset as you seem when you type.

                                          That's all. Feel free to just go ahead and type whatever you like. But if you misinterpret what I'm saying, I'll just keep trying my best to explain it to you.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Gee S
                                        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                                        So what you're saying is that in addition to supplying the DotD program with branding, products to sell, customers to sell them to, all the data involved, and ongoing leads, we as a community should also police those same offers so Mike doesn't accidentally give us an arbitrary price cut on a scammy item?

                                        Note that this is not a dig at Lantz, I'm just making a point.

                                        Also, I don't want to be the one to police them. Do you? Go try. I just don't buy the ones that look scammy. If everyone did the same thing, the scammers would go away, or at least thin out. That's called economics.

                                        *EDITED TO SHORTEN QUOTE*

                                        But then again, I'm sure Mike will tell you that every change he's made to this offering had most likely reduced its effectiveness. A lot of that (in my opinion) has to do with the whole system rewarding volume with a reduction in cost. If the system rewarded quality with added value, then it would ALREADY be doing what you're suggesting what we citizens should try to do for him.

                                        I think you're missing the point.

                                        The idea is to get rid of the scammy reports before or soon after it becomes a WSO. This is so it improves the WSO board and the WF in general. It may help Mike along the way but the main reason in my opinion to do this is so that it protects the other warriors who would be likely to buy such products.

                                        Gee
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                                          Originally Posted by Gee Sanghera View Post

                                          I think you're missing the point.

                                          The idea is to get rid of the scammy reports before or soon after it becomes a WSO. This is so it improves the WSO board and the WF in general. It may help Mike along the way but the main reason in my opinion to do this is so that it protects the other warriors who would be likely to buy such products.

                                          Gee
                                          No I didn't miss the point. I'm saying it's unicorn poop. It's nonexistent and impossible.

                                          I'm saying that with all honesty, I'm not going to do it. And you're not going to do it. And 99% of the people reading these words won't do it. Much less the larger mass of this forum who couldn't care LESS.

                                          So what you're saying could actually be happening right now. But it isn't. And it won't. If I buy something that's junk, I'll work that out. But I won't be compelled to click and review products that I wouldn't even click on to buy. Which are EXACTLY the ones that need policing.

                                          So many other Warriors could benefit from doing due diligence instead of steering their purchasing decisions with the little monkey part of their brains. That's not my problem. If they ask a question in here, I'll politely answer, even if it's really really dumb. (Sometimes). But I ain't going to hold their hand in the store.

                                          Caveat Emptor is perfectly acceptable for the WSO section with the reasonable guidelines in place that prevent outright spamming and defacement of the forum. But not when there's a 3rd party influence at work distorting perceptions.

                                          Because then the buyer cannot fairly beware, because they are under an unfairly included and misleading influence.

                                          Make sense now?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Gee S
                                            Colin,

                                            It's made sense to me way before you made your posts.

                                            Yes I understand and you've made it very clear about your thoughts about third party influence. But that had nothing to do with my point about trying to clean up the WSO board with a community effort.

                                            We know you'll not be doing this, which is totally fine. And I'm not advocating buying WSO's that you won't make use of just to see if they're scammy. But if a warrior buys a WSO that may be scammy in any way, then they can speak up about it. Sometimes it happens, and at other times nothing is said. But on occasions people don't know what to do, or don't think about "outing" the WSO in question.

                                            If we can stop the scammy products early on it will benefit everyone.

                                            Now, the "I'm not doing it" or "I cannot be bothered" attitude doesn't really help. By simply increasing awareness that things can and will be done about this can make a difference. If it helps save only a handful of people spending their money then fine I'm happy with that.

                                            Ok I'm off to bed. It's late and I need some shut eye. Have a good discussion guys and gals! Oh and remember....don't be mean and keep it clean!

                                            Gee


                                            Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                                            No I didn't miss the point. I'm saying it's unicorn poop. It's nonexistent and impossible.

                                            I'm saying that with all honesty, I'm not going to do it. And you're not going to do it. And 99% of the people reading these words won't do it. Much less the larger mass of this forum who couldn't care LESS.

                                            So what you're saying could actually be happening right now. But it isn't. And it won't. If I buy something that's junk, I'll work that out. But I won't be compelled to click and review products that I wouldn't even click on to buy. Which are EXACTLY the ones that need policing.

                                            So many other Warriors could benefit from doing due diligence instead of steering their purchasing decisions with the little monkey part of their brains. That's not my problem. If they ask a question in here, I'll politely answer, even if it's really really dumb. (Sometimes). But I ain't going to hold their hand in the store.

                                            Caveat Emptor is perfectly acceptable for the WSO section with the reasonable guidelines in place that prevent outright spamming and defacement of the forum. But not when there's a 3rd party influence at work distorting perceptions.

                                            Because then the buyer cannot fairly beware, because they are under an unfairly included and misleading influence.

                                            Make sense now?
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                                              Originally Posted by Gee Sanghera View Post

                                              Colin,

                                              It's made sense to me way before you made your posts.

                                              Yes I understand and you've made it very clear about your thoughts about third party influence. But that had nothing to do with my point about trying to clean up the WSO board with a community effort.

                                              We know you'll not be doing this, which is totally fine. And I'm not advocating buying WSO's that you won't make use of just to see if they're scammy. But if a warrior buys a WSO that may be scammy in any way, then they can speak up about it. Sometimes it happens, and at other times nothing is said. But on occasions people don't know what to do, or don't think about "outing" the WSO in question.

                                              If we can stop the scammy products early on it will benefit everyone.

                                              Now, the "I'm not doing it" or "I cannot be bothered" attitude doesn't really help. By simply increasing awareness that things can and will be done about this can make a difference. If it helps save only a handful of people spending there money then fine I'm happy with that.
                                              Another issue with self-policing of bad products is that a lot of times, the customers who fall for them aren't going to be able to tell that what they're reading is garbage or illegal. There's already a system in place to report stuff like this, but it's not going to catch the blatant scams, because people who know better won't even look at them.

                                              I agree that it would help everyone but it's not feasible.

                                              My attitude isn't so much that "I cannot be bothered" it's that I have a business to run and I really have better things to do, like writing a novel's worth of replies to this thread, for example.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Gee S
                                                Fair do's. I edited my post after you quoted me. It's late, I'm tired, but hopefully I've put my point across. It may not be totally feasible, but we definitely need to be looking towards that direction.

                                                Read the final sentence. I'll leave it on that note.

                                                Gee

                                                Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                                                Another issue with self-policing of bad products is that a lot of times, the customers who fall for them aren't going to be able to tell that what they're reading is garbage or illegal. There's already a system in place to report stuff like this, but it's not going to catch the blatant scams, because people who know better won't even look at them.

                                                I agree that it would help everyone but it's not feasible.

                                                My attitude isn't so much that "I cannot be bothered" it's that I have a business to run and I really have better things to do, like writing a novel's worth of replies to this thread, for example.

                                                And I'm busting on Razer for the reasons I outlined above. I'm a smart guy, I know how forums work. Usually on forums, if you hit "Quote" you reply to what the person actually said though. Like I did for you. And for him or her... it?

                                                I'm not the only person who has pointed out RR's continued insistence on defending Lantz from attacks that aren't even happening. It's especially grating when I even specifically said it. That's all.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                                      Originally Posted by Gee Sanghera View Post

                                      Hi Bev,

                                      I just thought I'd pitch in a point of view on the scam issue.

                                      I know it is difficult to manually review WSO's in the first place by the mods or whoever approves them but should these scam products not be WSO's in the first place?

                                      Maybe if they cannot be reviewed manually before they get approved before going on the WSO board, we as a community should do more to "out" these products.

                                      My only point is that these products shouldn't be on the WSO board in the first place. That would then stop any scammy products being DotD, and would help clean up the forum to a certain extent.

                                      Gee
                                      I totally agree they shouldn't be on the WSO board, and it is the responsibility of every member to out these products.

                                      From what was originally posted about the WSO of the day being reviewed, I assumed like others the actual product had been reviewed.

                                      Let's take for example the one which was selected which told people to do something illegal, if the product had been reviewed before becoming a WSO of the day, then it would have come to light.

                                      The mods could have been informed and dozens if not hundreds of people who have been saved from it.

                                      I know it is impractical for the mods to review every single WSO before approving it.

                                      But, if I was Mike L I would want to see the product to review it just like I won't offer all affiliate products to my list unless I know what I'm offering.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Gee S
                                        Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                                        I totally agree they should be on the WSO board, and it is the responsibility of every member to out these products.

                                        From what was originally posted about the WSO of the day being reviewed, I assumed like others the actual product had been reviewed.

                                        Let's take for example the one which was selected which told people to do something illegal, if the product had been reviewed before becoming a WSO of the day, then it would have come to light.

                                        The mods could have been informed and dozens if not hundreds of people who have been saved from it.

                                        I know it is impractical for the mods to review every single WSO before approving it.

                                        But, if I was Mike L I would want to see the product to review it just like I won't offer all affiliate products to my list unless I know what I'm offering.

                                        Yep I definitely see where you're coming from.

                                        I just see it as trying to nip it in the bud as soon as possible. I've been apart of the WF for a while now, and from what I've seen I'd say in the last few months there has been a crackdown on WSO's. I know Paul Myers has been involved in this, but I'm hoping that it has been other warriors alerting the mods to this too.

                                        The earlier we get these scams out of the WSO board, the better everyone will be for it.

                                        Gee
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                        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                          Colin,

                          You may be being cheeky, but your make a fair assessment of the situation. Without the idea of you creating your own WSO to promote my offer (which, as we discussed, would be against rule #1), I think everything you said is acceptable.

                          Is there anything wrong with you making that offer? No. Do I get to choose whether or not to accept the offer? Yes.

                          Sounds fair to me.

                          Mike
                          Yeah, but are going to accept it is my question.

                          Let's do this, Mike!

                          We could make so much money together! Well, you'll make 25% as much, but I'll make 50% of the total which is all butter on my side, so in a way, we will BOTH win.

                          I'm very excited to start this project right away, particularly because I feel it will add so much value for your new customers to get your stuff at half off. It may or may not piss off your old customers, but don't worry.

                          They'll soon catch on and know that they should ALWAYS hold out for our "Warrior Special Warrior Special Offer Offer" rather than pay full price.

                          There's more cheek there. And yes, it's fine for me to offer this to you, and it's fine for you to say no, and you CAN say no. But as another guy said:

                          Come on, buddy. Come on.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
                        Dammit this guy is good....

                        Remind me never to get into an argument with him

                        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                        If it's okay for you, it should be okay for me to do. If so, I would like to make you an offer. I hear that Warriorplus sells like hotcakes. I'll take your word for it that it's good. I don't need to check it out myself.

                        So I want to make a WSO and offer membership to Warriorplus at half-price. I'll give you half of what I make on the deal. We'll call it "Warrior Special Warrior Special Offer Offer".

                        Think of all the extra exposure you'll get, plus you'll make a lot more sales. None of the people who paid full price will be mad, and if they are, they won't complain, so we don't even have to worry about it.

                        I'm being cheeky, but if this is what you're asking, would you do this with your own products?
                        On another note, and as an occasional buyer of WSO's,

                        Yeah I'd be pretty pissed off if I paid something for a product and then the next day it was half price.

                        Also guys you gotta remember, it may only be a few dollars to you and I, but those few extra dollars may mean the difference to some people of eating or not. (It's not always about the sale)

                        Kim
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                        • Profile picture of the author dseisner
                          Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

                          Also guys you gotta remember, it may only be a few dollars to you and I, but those few extra dollars may mean the difference to some people of eating or not. (It's not always about the sale)
                          If they couldn't afford it at the full price, they shouldn't have bought. If they cost themselves a meal, then is that the seller's fault? Come on now! I pass on products that don't fit my budget all the time. Many of those product go down in price, if only temporarily, and guess what I do... yep, I buy when they are discounted so I can eat too. If I miss a sale at the mall, I might be disappointed but I don't go crying to the vendor or the mall owner that it's unfair. I either move on without buying because it's out of my price range, or I buy at the regular price, which is hopefully still a good value.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
                            Yeah I agree with you, but the whole point of WSO's is the fact that they are supposed to be at the lowest level offered. Many people buy wso's because that's what they think they are getting.

                            We're not talking about going down the Mall, we're talking about the WSO forum where a certain code of practice is expected.

                            Kim

                            Originally Posted by dseisner View Post

                            If they couldn't afford it at the full price, they shouldn't have bought. If they cost themselves a meal, then is that the seller's fault? Come on now! I pass on products that don't fit my budget all the time. Many of those product go down in price, if only temporarily, and guess what I do... yep, I buy when they are discounted so I can eat too. If I miss a sale at the mall, I might be disappointed but I don't go crying to the vendor or the mall owner that it's unfair. I either move on without buying because it's out of my price range, or I buy at the regular price, which is hopefully still a good value.
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                            • Profile picture of the author dseisner
                              Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

                              Yeah I agree with you, but the whole point of WSO's is the fact that they are supposed to be at the lowest level offered. Many people buy wso's because that's what they think they are getting.
                              Let's say on Monday, the retail price is $30 and the WSO price is $20. The $20 price is the lowest you can get at that time. Warrior Special Offer. Nobody is fooled here.

                              Tuesday is the WP deal of the day. Price is $10 to every Warrior. Not some warriors, all warriors. The price is the lowest you can get at that time. That price is not available anywhere else.

                              Wednesday the price is back to $20. This is the lowest price available at the time. Yea, it was $10 yesterday, but that's also the case when you do tiered pricing or any kind of scarcity pricing. The price is STILL the lowest price available on the internet.

                              At no time, did the WP deal of the day make the product not the lowest price available at the time. It ONLY made it more accessible to some people for a temporary time period. Nobody is duped here, savvy or un-savvy buyers.


                              We're not talking about going down the Mall, we're talking about the WSO forum where a certain code of practice is expected.

                              Kim
                              Has the "code of practice" been sacrificed in this scenario in which a JV between a large list owner and the seller reduce the price for one day to make it more accessible to the masses just because the price goes back up after that sale? I do not believe so.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
                      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                      Really, I think the only question that is valid here is this: Should it be ok for Warriorplus to promote WSO Pro listings for a commission when specifically opted for by the sellers.?

                      Short answer is You have every right to promote any deal or JV in the classified section.

                      That's what the section is for, for anyone wanting to sell a product or service as an affiliate the classifieds are an excellent place on the warrior forum to use.

                      We are not allowed to promote affiliate products in our sig file or in the WSO forum.

                      It is also true that being an agent for the sale of goods or services the agent is liable for the product or services that are offered to sell.

                      Your company is liable for the reporting of any affiliate commissions collected or paid in states that require reporting.

                      Your company is liable for adhering to the applicable law in the jurisdiction that you are operation from and the jurisdiction of the of the company(s) that you have an agent relationship with.

                      Furthermore your company is also acting as a delivery agent for the products / services as a for hire service.

                      For hire service providers have guidelines they must to follow to protect the purchaser, the financial institution used, and the product provider.

                      Mike L I do NOT think you are trying to avoid operating within the law, I do suggest that you find appropriate legal council to address the issues that have been brought up in this thread.

                      Mark Riddle
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                  • Profile picture of the author SMS
                    Hey Bev.

                    Welcome back to te UK.

                    WSOs OF THE DAY were posted by Mike, and it looks like that was against the rules. He then went away & relaunched the offer as WP DEAL OF THE DAY which is posted by the WSO vendor himself/herself.

                    One reason I don't understand why people are up in arms about this is that there are some really terrible things that happen on the WSO Forum, and nobody seems to be batting an eyelid.

                    However, people see Mike Lantz as fair game.

                    I'm sorry but it just doesn't feel right to me. :confused:

                    This thread is just one long debate about sematics. The good thing is that it hasn't descended into personal insults like the last one.

                    Mike is not one of the problems with the WSO Forum. In fact, if people want to be creative about this, Mike's service can actually help get rid of a lot of the scammers.

                    Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

                    If you look I raised a question which hasn't been answered. How is the Deal of the Day a wso and not a classified ad?

                    Up to now, Mike L has submitted all the Deal of the Day himself, and the rule is

                    1. All WSO's Must Be Something You Created. A Product Of Your Own. (A package of ebooks someone threw together is not considered a product and will be deleted) This is completely self explanatory and not up for debate. If you yourself did not create the product do not post it here.

                    Mike L didn't create these products, he is a JV partner.

                    If other people decided to do WSO as JV partners they would either be deleted or moved to the Classified.

                    However, you look at the deal of the day it is nothing more than a JV deal it isn't a WSO and shouldn't be posted there.
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                • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
                  Originally Posted by SMS View Post

                  Before people thinking or wondering if Razer Rage and I are one and the same person - I can assure that we are not.

                  However, it seems that we think very much alike. :p
                  You type a lot alike too, now that you mention it. I hadn't thought it before, but now I really think you might be onto something there, what all with him replying directly to something I wrote to you. But hey, I believe you.

                  Originally Posted by SMS View Post

                  Thanks for responding to this, Razer - you've done my job for me, and all that's left for me to say is...

                  It looks like whatever Mike does he cannot win. Initially, the problem was that using 'WSO' implied that it was an official Warrior Forum award, and that posting a WSO for a product that is not yours breaks the Forum rules.

                  Mike then voluntarily stopped the scheme and went back to the drawing board. After addressing those concerns, he relaunched it.

                  Yet, people are still not happy & have raised a completely different set of issues!

                  I wonder why?
                  Probably it's because there are still issues with the implementation beyond the name, as we've been saying like the WHOLE TIME.

                  I know for me, it's not because I know Lantz, I'm not a customer, partner, friend, acquaintance, whatever. I'm a fellow Warrior. I sell how-to marketing info. I'll probably make a WSO someday. I do buy them. That area doesn't need any help getting any more hinky.

                  I'm just putting my views out there as a fellow warrior. It's not because I don't think he's malicious in what he's doing, though he is trying to rationalize a purely profit-based motive.

                  I don't even judge that. We're all business people here.

                  But what I'm saying is that from a market and COMMUNITY ecology standpoint, it's not implemented well and may actually add to the detrimental creep of poorly constructed scam-type products in the WSO section.

                  It certainly could arguably lead to their proliferation, simply by making some of them more successful than they would otherwise be, making the forest fire burn down that many more trees.

                  If they were fully reviewed for awesomeness vs. high sales, maybe.

                  If they were not run on currently running offers, maybe.

                  If it was not strictly a discount-for-more-sales ploy, maybe.

                  In fact I think if there was a Deal-of-the-Day that was actually VETTED for quality, you wouldn't even NEED to lower the price. In fact, if something is ONLY the "deal of the day" for the vendor because he managed to sell a lot, his only focus to score it is to SELL SELL SELL, which is no longer "special" for warriors.

                  And if selected products are only a "deal" for the customer because you lowered the price by half, you may as well just pick products at random.
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                  • Profile picture of the author SMS
                    Colin,

                    May I just say that you talk a lot of sense!

                    I don't agree with everything you say, but I can see the considered logic in your argument.

                    The problem for me from the very start is that I strongly believe that Mike Lantz has been unfairly singled out (and not by you by the way).

                    If this wasn't the case it is very likely that you and I would be on the same side of the fence.

                    For this case though, I can't help but say... Mike Lantz is one of the good guys!

                    If people really want to wage a war against the baddies - I am all for it - I have been hurt by them, probably more than most.

                    I hope you can see where I am coming from.

                    And I can understand Rage's rage. I am fighting to contain mine - my rage against an injustice that should not be happening.

                    Peace to you, kind Sir.

                    Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

                    You type a lot alike too, now that you mention it. I hadn't thought it before, but now I really think you might be onto something there, what all with him replying directly to something I wrote to you. But hey, I believe you.



                    Probably it's because there are still issues with the implementation beyond the name, as we've been saying like the WHOLE TIME.

                    I know for me, it's not because I know Lantz, I'm not a customer, partner, friend, acquaintance, whatever. I'm a fellow Warrior. I sell how-to marketing info. I'll probably make a WSO someday. I do buy them. That area doesn't need any help getting any more hinky.

                    I'm just putting my views out there as a fellow warrior. It's not because I don't think he's malicious in what he's doing, though he is trying to rationalize a purely profit-based motive.

                    I don't even judge that. We're all business people here.

                    But what I'm saying is that from a market and COMMUNITY ecology standpoint, it's not implemented well and may actually add to the detrimental creep of poorly constructed scam-type products in the WSO section.

                    It certainly could arguably lead to their proliferation, simply by making some of them more successful than they would otherwise be, making the forest fire burn down that many more trees.

                    If they were fully reviewed for awesomeness vs. high sales, maybe.

                    If they were not run on currently running offers, maybe.

                    If it was not strictly a discount-for-more-sales ploy, maybe.

                    In fact I think if there was a Deal-of-the-Day that was actually VETTED for quality, you wouldn't even NEED to lower the price. In fact, if something is ONLY the "deal of the day" for the vendor because he managed to sell a lot, his only focus to score it is to SELL SELL SELL, which is no longer "special" for warriors.

                    And if selected products are only a "deal" for the customer because you lowered the price by half, you may as well just pick products at random.
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        • Profile picture of the author djleon1
          I have been reading these posts and vacillating over whether I think the wso of the day is somehow unfair to people who paid the wso price and also whether calling it out in this forum is appropiate (or both).

          Anyway - looking at the wso of the day it does seem a but against the spirit of what a wso is but I would not classify it (or the owner) as wrong (the people offering the wso may be more in the wrong id anyone is).

          Does it seem like Allen is endorsing the wso of the day - well yes it does at least tacitly - but it is his forum and his to profit from. Is Mike L profiting from this too - I assume so and if Allen is okay with it then so be it - I can only be jealous of Mike L for having the access and skills to create the product. Is mike getting some kind of "preferential" access to be allowed to have this product? Dunno and not sure if there is anything wrong with that anyway (but haven't thought a lot about it yet).

          All that being said - when I do a gut check - I just don't like the premise of having a cheaper price for a wso available while the actual wso is running. Maybe adjustments can be made - such as waiting till it is on page three or something.

          Now- I also don't like calling out mike about this when it clearly has not been a secret that the wso of the day has been available (why it is a wso itself) - two wrongs don't make a right here.

          I have no stake in this (just opinions) but if I was truly troubled (or just plain old aggravated) then I would take it up with Allen and Mike personally especially when their actions are not harming me personally but just annoying me.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
            Originally Posted by djleon1 View Post

            I have been reading these posts and vacillating over whether I think the wso of the day is somehow unfair to people who paid the wso price and also whether calling it out in this forum is appropiate (or both).

            Anyway - looking at the wso of the day it does seem a but against the spirit of what a wso is but I would not classify it (or the owner) as wrong (the people offering the wso may be more in the wrong id anyone is).

            Does it seem like Allen is endorsing the wso of the day - well yes it does at least tacitly - but it is his forum and his to profit from. Is Mike L profiting from this too - I assume so and if Allen is okay with it then so be it - I can only be jealous of Mike L for having the access and skills to create the product. Is mike getting some kind of "preferential" access to be allowed to have this product? Dunno and not sure if there is anything wrong with that anyway (but haven't thought a lot about it yet).

            All that being said - when I do a gut check - I just don't like the premise of having a cheaper price for a wso available while the actual wso is running. Maybe adjustments can be made - such as waiting till it is on page three or something.

            Now- I also don't like calling out mike about this when it clearly has not been a secret that the wso of the day has been available (why it is a wso itself) - two wrongs don't make a right here.

            I have no stake in this (just opinions) but if I was truly troubled (or just plain old aggravated) then I would take it up with Allen and Mike personally especially when their actions are not harming me personally but just annoying me.
            Thanks for your post. It is always good to see what others viewpoints are.

            Let me touch on a few things...

            First off, the "Deal of the Day" is not really a cheaper price while the WSO is running - it IS the WSO. The seller simply discounts the WSO for 24 hours, and that price is available to everyone. It's not like there are 2 WSOs selling for different prices. During the "Deal of the Day", everything points to the lower price.

            In its simplest form, the "Deal of the Day" is simply a JV deal. In return for a percentage of sales, WarriorPlus is simply promoting the specific WSO for 24 hours at a discounted price over what the WSO had previously been running at. After the "day" is over, the price returns to where it was and everything continues as it was before.

            In no way is a seller required to lower there price, and WarriorPlus in no way has to promote an offer as "Deal of the Day". In addition, WarriorPlus promotes other offers each day, as well, without any discounted price. This is all at the choice of the seller when they set up their WSO Pro listing.

            I know I said this before, but I just want to be clear that WarriorPlus will NEVER just change the price of someone's WSO and promote it as the "Deal of the Day". The pricing and timing is always discussed at length with the seller before anything happens - it is 100% the seller's decision.

            Thanks again for your thoughts!

            Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
          No it doesn't, I didn't read Big Mike's OP in that he thinks poorly of him. He was just questioning some things Mike Lantz was doing with WSO's etc and to be honest I thought he brought up some valid questions.

          I think it's to Mike Lantz's credit that he is acting on those questions

          Kim

          Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

          That's debatable. It seems pretty clear from his original post that he thinks poorly of Mike and his service. Whether he altered it and recanted part of his post is irrelevant. It's obvious what his feelings are, and I feel that they are unfair and biased.

          And as Mike Lantz has stated in some of his posts, many of BIG Mikes accusations are totally false.

          And this may be just me, but I would say that if his intentions were malicious, then it would matter a great deal. But, as I stated in an earlier post, I don't think this is the case.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        Hey Dennis,

        There was a glitch last week that caused an email to go out to people who may have not specifically opted-in to receive the notification. But, this only happened once. You will likely receive another email from me shortly discussing this issue, with a very clear way to discontinue any future communications.

        I am sorry for this inconvenience, though, as it is certainly not the way I do business.

        Mike
        Fair enough, mistakes happen. I have no problem with mistakes, just a problem with making people jump through hoops to unsubscribe, which apparently wasn't intentional.

        Now, to those who interpreted this: "And let's be clear when talking about "Contributions" - he is paid a fee for using his WSO services. That's not a problem...we're all here to make money - but by no stretch of the imagination is it a "Contribution". "

        ...as BIG Mike saying Mike Lantz doesn't make any contributions here, I didn't read it that way. I read it as pertaining to the WSO of the Day only. I seriously doubt BIG Mike meant that Mike Lantz didn't make contributions by posting useful information, just that his WSO of the Day is paid service, not a good will contribution.
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

          Just because it is a paid service, it does not mean it is not a contribution.Technically, WSO of the Day is a free service offered to WSO Pro users, which is a paid service.

          WSO Pro offers many features for WSO sellers that are otherwise unavailable (without extensive work on the part of the seller).

          I would consider WSO Pro/WSO of the Day to be a contribution to this forum, just like I consider the War Room to be yet another contribution made by Allen to this forum.

          You may feel otherwise. There's nothing wrong with that. As for myself, I consider anything that adds quality to an experience, whether it's paid or free, to be a contribution.
          Now you're just arguing semantics out of context with the way I said I interpreted BIG Mike's point. I interpreted it as Mike saying it wasn't a GOOD WILL contribution, but instead it was a paid service. That's how I interpreted it, and that's the context of my comment. Whether a paid service can be considered a contribution is another argument.
          Signature

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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

            Really? I interpreted it as BIG Mike saying it was not a contribution, period. And based on his post, I'm pretty sure that's what he was saying.

            I'm also sure the reason he said so was simply because it was a paid service. Hence, my own post.

            I'm sorry that you feel I have taken your post out of context, but I do not feel this way.
            I never said a paid service wasn't a contribution. I only differentiated between a good will contribution and commercial contribution. When you single out my interpretation and start arguing that Mike's service is a contribution, you're using my interpretation out of context.

            You could have said everything you said without singling out my post and you wouldn't get an argument from me. But you chose to single me out and set up your argument by taking my words out of context, and so, here we are...
            Signature

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            • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

              I never said a paid service wasn't a contribution. I only differentiated between a good will contribution and commercial contribution. When you single out my interpretation and start arguing that Mike's service is a contribution, you're using my interpretation out of context.

              You could have said everything you said without singling out my post and you wouldn't get an argument from me. But you chose to single me out and set up your argument by taking my words out of context, and so, here we are...
              Hey Dennis,

              I think you are right that what you guys are talking about stems from a difference in context. I don't think Razer is necessarily taking what you say out of context, though, but only seeing Big Mike's context differently than you are. Only Big Mike can shed light on the context for sure.

              When I read it (and taking into account the other comments he made in this and other threads), I take it to mean that he doesn't feel like any of the services on my WarriorPlus site (which he called "WSO services") are a contribution at all. Basically, it feels like he is attacking me and my site for reasons unknown to me.

              Now, I could be wrong about this - and perhaps I am just being defensive - but, I am generally known for being reasonable and have really tried to see the other side of his comments, but am having trouble finding the "good" right now.

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                Hey Dennis,

                I think you are right that what you guys are talking about stems from a difference in context. I don't think Razer is necessarily taking what you say out of context, though, but only seeing Big Mike's context differently than you are. Only Big Mike can shed light on the context for sure.

                When I read it (and taking into account the other comments he made in this and other threads), I take it to mean that he doesn't feel like any of the services on my WarriorPlus site (which he called "WSO services") are a contribution at all. Basically, it feels like he is attacking me and my site for reasons unknown to me.

                Now, I could be wrong about this - and perhaps I am just being defensive - but, I am generally known for being reasonable and have really tried to see the other side of his comments, but am having trouble finding the "good" right now.

                Mike
                Mike, I understand Razer has a different interpretation, and that's fine. I give him all the credit in the world for thinking for himself. I like people that think for themselves. However, he used my interpretation to make his argument. That wasn't necessary. He could have made his argument without positioning my interpretation as wrong. That's why I say he used MY interpretation out of context, because he essentially positioned my words to argue against something I didn't say.

                Anyway, too much has been made of it already.

                I can understand you not liking BIG Mike's comments, or some of the other comments in this thread. I think you've been very reasonable, for what it's worth. I just don't think BIG Mike meant you make no contributions at all. I'll leave that for you two to hash out, I just wanted to show there was another way to interpret that particular statement.
                Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author John Rogers
    I'm guessing Allen's endorsement of WSO Pro in this thread got everybody all giddy
    http://www.warriorforum.com/war-room...uncements.html

    I'm also guessing that Allen's endorsement of WSO Pro created an assumed endorsement of WSO of the Day and Mike Lantz in many minds.

    Whether or not WSO of the Day is good or bad is a matter of widely varying opinion, but the bottom line is that if Allen didn't give it the thumbs up before it happened, it never should have been.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
    Let me address a few more things...

    PM SPAM

    There have been some accusations (mainly from Big Mike) that I am somehow spamming Warrior member's PM box. There are however a few different PMs that have been sent that I want to address.

    Before getting into it, let me just add that there are times that I send PMs to users, and times that I send emails. I don't believe there is any reason to distinguish each type of communication separately, as they are both simply ways to get a message out.

    First off, the PM that sparked this entire thread was one I sent out earlier today. It was sent to WSO Pro users who said they were interested in having their offer run as "WSO of the Day". No one who had not requested to have their offer run as "WSO of the Day" (or now "WP Deal of the Day") received any PM from me. If anyone can call that spam, than I think we are all in trouble.

    Another PM that was previously sent by WarriorPlus that has also been discussed here is the one that was sent to Warriors who had just posted a new WSO that was not using WSO Pro. Yes, this was an advertisement, but it is not what you might think if you don't have all of the background...

    Allen and I had been discussing WSO Pro right around the time that he wrote his "announcement" in the War Room about it. He was excited about the service, and we were discussing ways to get the word out to more WSO sellers about it. One idea that came up was to promote it directly on the page where a seller paid to post their WSO. He thought this was a good idea. But, for whatever reason, it did not get implemented.

    During this discussion, I also brought up the idea of sending a PM to each WSO seller after they posted their offer. Allen agreed with this idea, so I set up the system to do so. Now, in a PM I received more recently that was sent after Big Mike complained to Allen about the "WSO of the Day", Allen asked me to stop sending the PM, to which I complied immediately.

    I hope that clears up most of the questions around the "PM" issue.

    "WSO OF THE DAY"

    Now, I would like to discuss the discontinuance of the "WSO of the Day". In this thread (and other previous ones) Big Mike keeps throwing out the idea that somehow Allen did not know anything about this and I was just trying to take advantage of the forum. This is again false.

    The "WSO of the Day" was discontinued by the request of Allen (again, immediately after the request). However, it was not because he was just finding out about it and was pissed off that I would do such a thing. It was simply due to some possible legal issues that have come up recently due to some of the new FCC laws that have recently went into effect in the USA. He wanted to err on the side of caution, and I do not blame him. At no time did Allen tell me that he was unaware of it previously or that I did not receive proper approvals to run it.

    So, "WSO of the Day" ended because Allen asked me to, and I could see possible issues with the name and it could possibly be attached to endorsement and promotion without proper disclaimers, and how it could put him (and even me) at risk.

    In addition, in one thread it was brought up that it could be considered against the WSO rules because technically "warriorplus" was listing it for sale and it was not a product owned or created by WarriorPlus or myself. Of course, I had no intention of breaking WSO rules or going against Allen, so I suspended "WSO of the Day" immediately.

    The facts are important and I am happy to share them. I hope this helps make things a bit more clear.

    Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

      Let me address a few more things...

      PM SPAM

      Before getting into it, let me just add that there are times that I send PMs to users, and times that I send emails. I don't believe there is any reason to distinguish each type of communication separately, as they are both simply ways to get a message out.

      First off, the PM that sparked this entire thread was one I sent out earlier today. It was sent to WSO Pro users who said they were interested in having their offer run as "WSO of the Day". No one who had not requested to have their offer run as "WSO of the Day" (or now "WP Deal of the Day") received any PM from me. If anyone can call that spam, than I think we are all in trouble.

      Another PM that was previously sent by WarriorPlus that has also been discussed here is the one that was sent to Warriors who had just posted a new WSO that was not using WSO Pro. Yes, this was an advertisement, but it is not what you might think if you don't have all of the background...


      Mike
      Mike, sorry this isn't true. I am using WSO Pro and have opted out of the WSO of the Day, yet I got the PM which is being talked about here.

      The other PM which was sent after posting a new WSO was also sent to people who were using your system. I received a PM asking me to use WarriorPlus and I thought it was totally crazy as I was already using it.

      I've also received emails and PM's about the WSO of the day which I don't remember signing up for, and the email address used was my PayPal one.

      Bev
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

        Mike, sorry this isn't true. I am using WSO Pro and have opted out of the WSO of the Day, yet I got the PM which is being talked about here.

        The other PM which was sent after posting a new WSO was also sent to people who were using your system. I received a PM asking me to use WarriorPlus and I thought it was totally crazy as I was already using it.

        I've also received emails and PM's about the WSO of the day which I don't remember signing up for, and the email address used was my PayPal one.

        Bev
        Hey, Bev.

        Except for on one occasion that I mentioned earlier, the messages were sent only to those who asked to receive them.

        In your case, you must have one of your WSO Pro listings with the "Deal of the Day" box checked, as that was the main criteria the system used to send the message. It simply would not have gone out to you if this was not the case.

        Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

      "WSO OF THE DAY"

      The "WSO of the Day" was discontinued by the request of Allen (again, immediately after the request). However, it was not because he was just finding out about it and was pissed off that I would do such a thing. It was simply due to some possible legal issues that have come up recently due to some of the new FCC laws that have recently went into effect in the USA. He wanted to err on the side of caution, and I do not blame him. At no time did Allen tell me that he was unaware of it previously or that I did not receive proper approvals to run it.

      So, "WSO of the Day" ended because Allen asked me to, and I could see possible issues with the name and it could possibly be attached to endorsement and promotion without proper disclaimers, and how it could put him (and even me) at risk.

      In addition, in one thread it was brought up that it could be considered against the WSO rules because technically "warriorplus" was listing it for sale and it was not a product owned or created by WarriorPlus or myself. Of course, I had no intention of breaking WSO rules or going against Allen, so I suspended "WSO of the Day" immediately.

      The facts are important and I am happy to share them. I hope this helps make things a bit more clear.

      Mike
      Mike, I am wondering has Allen given permission for the same service to be offered on the WSO forum, but changing the name? It seems from what you said here, Allen asked and you stopped offering the WSO of the Day, but this didn't stop for long as the new name has now been implemented.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Wheeler
    Personally I loved WSO of the day and it has brought my attention to a number of offers I would have otherwise missed. Hope it comes back!
    Signature
    I sell my own products and training via www.marketerspassport.com
    I review products and offer bonuses at www.wantabonus.com
    I blog personally, infrequently and a little randomly at www.justinwheeler.net
    And I run a Web Development and Social Media Consultancy at www.vashonmedia.com
    Look forward to knowing you... Drop by on Facebook
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    • Profile picture of the author djleon1
      Mike - you may want to change your sig and get rid of reference to wso of the day.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by djleon1 View Post

        Mike - you may want to change your sig and get rid of reference to wso of the day.
        Thanks for the heads up!

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    Let me say a few things in fairness to Mike Lantz.

    1.
    He is a pleasure to work with. I never had troubles
    working with him.


    2. The WSO price never has to be the lowest price.

    It just has to be better than the price the public at large can get.


    3. WSO Pro is a system. WP of the Day is a marketing promotion.
    2 different things. If you have a problem with the promotion,
    you cannot blame the system.

    And the WSO Pro system, to me, is a great system for
    managing WSO. I think many other users can say that too.
    And that also include Allen, the owner.


    4. Mike Lantz did make valuable contributions to the forum.
    Yes, most of us do businesses here. But it's grossly unfair
    to say Mike contributes just for the sake of "profitting".

    It's very unfair.

    This is just about "give and you shall receive" and "reciprocity".


    5. Discounts are part of the business game. WP of the Day is
    a 1 day discount. 1 off. Although I can understand that past buyers
    will be a bit unhappy, but there's nothing illegal about this.

    Discounts happen everywhere. And in the real offline world too.

    Think Woot.com (which is very similar to WP Deal of the Day).

    You can't call them an unethical business, right?

    Jag
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by Jag82 View Post

      Let me say a few things in fairness to Mike Lantz.

      1.
      He is a pleasure to work with. I never had troubles
      working with him.


      2. The WSO price never has to be the lowest price.

      It just has to be better than the price the public at large can get.


      3. WSO Pro is a system. WP of the Day is a marketing promotion.
      2 different things. If you have a problem with the promotion,
      you cannot blame the system.

      And the WSO Pro system, to me, is a great system for
      managing WSO.


      4. Mike Lantz did make valuable contributions to the forum.
      Yes, most of us do businesses here. But it's grossly unfair
      to say Mike contributes just for the sake of "profitting".

      It's very unfair.

      This is just about "give and you shall receive" and "reciprocity".


      5. Discounts are part of the business game. WP of the Day is
      a 1 day discount. 1 off. Although I can understand that past buyers
      will be a bit unhappy, but there's nothing illegal about this.

      Discounts happen everywhere. And in the real offline world too.


      Jag
      Thanks, Jag. I truly appreciate your comments. I absolutely do try my best to create win-win situations. I created WarriorPlus for that exact reason.

      And Jag, just to clarify, would you say that when you ran your offer as "WSO of the Day" that you were happy with the results? Do you believe you would have made more money had your offer not been "WSO of the Day", as some in this thread claim?

      The above question is open to all who have had a "WSO of the Day" offer. Not sure how many of them will read this, but if that applies to you, I would be very happy to hear your thoughts. Money isn't everything here, and there are other issues being discussed, but since this was directly brought up, I think it is fair to address it.

      Thanks again, Jag!

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Jag82
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


        And Jag, just to clarify, would you say that when you ran your offer as "WSO of the Day" that you were happy with the results? Do you believe you would have made more money had your offer not been "WSO of the Day", as some in this thread claim?
        Hi Mike,

        I willingly went into the "WSO of the Day" deal with you.

        As marketers, we need to test new channels.

        I can say that it is definitely possible to make more
        revenue in a single day with "WSO of the Day" promotion
        as compared to any other day.

        It's definitely possible to more than make up for the decrease in
        price with the spike in sales volume.

        This is not based on opinion. This is based on the data I got.

        Also, many of us forget an important point - lead generation!

        Why do many marketers use discounts?

        It's used as a loss-leader!

        To get more leads. To get more customers,
        whom we can build relationship with.

        I don't think many Warriors can disagree with this point.

        Best,
        Jag
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          DJ,

          The annoyance factor you mention is a large part of it for most people who're bothered by this situation, certainly. There are issues that go beyond that, though.

          If the current incarnation of WP-DotD is not hosted through the WSO forum, these become slightly less significant. But they still exist. And they have a potential impact on every person selling anything through the WSO section.

          Mike L refers to the discussion as "somewhat" valid. I'm curious to see how he minimizes these concerns:

          1. The effect Mike K emphasizes with the thread title, which is a tendency (as yet unmeasured) for the potential of a WP-DotD to appear reducing sales for every offer that hasn't attained that "status."

          2. The very real annoyance that some people will feel after having bought something at what is supposed to be the lowest publicly available price, only to see it cut in half in the same venue days later.

          Denying that anyone will feel that annoyance, or that they're somehow to be ignored for it, would be a genuine source of amusement to me.

          3. Follow this chain of reasoning:

          a: The WP-DotD is chosen based on sales data obtained through the Warrior Pro system. (Mike L, correct me if that's inaccurate, please.)

          b: The hottest selling WSOs are traditionally those which make specific and outrageous promises, and/or offer "black-hat" shortcuts. (I know, I know. We try to keep the black-hat stuff out, but it's not possible to catch it all. We do what we can.)

          The majority of the scammy offers in the WSO section share those characteristics. (This is not the same as saying that all offers which make large promises are scams.)

          c: Conclusion: The WP-DotD offers are statistically more likely than the WSO section offers as a whole to be scammy.

          If that's true, we are creating a situation in which the legitimate sellers are penalized to the benefit of the scammers.

          Is that somehow to be considered 'fair' or only "somewhat" valid as a concern?


          Paul
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          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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          • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Mike L refers to the discussion as "somewhat" valid. I'm curious to see how he minimizes these concerns:
            I am all about minimizing concerns - bring it on!

            Seriously, though, I am happy to look at and address them...

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            1. The effect Mike K emphasizes with the thread title, which is a tendency (as yet unmeasured) for the potential of a WP-DotD to appear reducing sales for every offer that hasn't attained that "status."
            It would be difficult to measure this, but it certainly is possible. But, consider the fact that this thread itself with such a title is only contributing to the possible issues. It reminds of me a thread that says: "Hey, I found this website that has a ton of IMers stuff on it for free or being sold for $1. Here is the URL, is your stuff there?"

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            2. The very real annoyance that some people will feel after having bought something at what is supposed to be the lowest publicly available price, only to see it cut in half in the same venue days later.

            Denying that anyone will feel that annoyance, or that they're somehow to be ignored for it, would be a genuine source of amusement to me.
            Again, I received very few comments about concern over this issue. People are simply used to the fact that there are "sales" and that prices change often on everything. Just because I bought orange juice at the grocery store for 4 dollars and then next week it went on sale for $2 doesn't mean I am going to be angry at the store does it?

            I am not saying a certain level of annoyance doesn't exist, but to think it is a major issue would be over-estimating it.

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            3. Follow this chain of reasoning:

            a: The WP-DotD is chosen based on sales data obtained through the Warrior Pro system. (Mike L, correct me if that's inaccurate, please.)

            b: The hottest selling WSOs are traditionally those which make specific and outrageous promises, and/or offer "black-hat" shortcuts. (I know, I know. We try to keep the black-hat stuff out, but it's not possible to catch it all. We do what we can.)

            The majority of the scammy offers in the WSO section share those characteristics. (This is not the same as saying that all offers which make large promises are scams.)

            c: Conclusion: The WP-DotD offers are statistically more likely than the WSO section offers as a whole to be scammy.

            If that's true, we are creating a situation in which the legitimate sellers are penalized to the benefit of the scammers.

            Is that somehow to be considered 'fair' or only "somewhat" valid as a concern?

            Paul
            I don't think your conclusions here are all that accurate, but likely due to not considering some of the factors that I do when choosing an offer to promote. While sales data is a major factor in choosing an offer, it is the multiple sub-factors that make it less of a problem.

            In addition to just the # of sales made, I also consider testimonials, refund rates, length of time on sale, and other minor factors. If an offer is selling well, getting good testimonials and few refunds, it is likely providing good value and those who are buying are happy with it. If that is the case, why would it be considered to be "scammy"?

            Simply put, it is my goal to pick good offers, not bad ones. In running around 50 offers, only one twas taken down becauase it was "black hat". While Big Mike - and perhaps even yourself - point to this as a "scammy offer", the buyers of the offer were happy with their purchase. Refund requests were very low and reviews were great. Of course, after finding out that "blackhat" offers were being discouraged, I ended the offer.

            While I agree that offers that make certain types of promises may sell better, that does not mean they are bad offers and do not offer value to the buyers. And, to take your conclusion through to the end, what we can arrive at is that the offers that make the most promises sell better. Whether or not it is promoted as a DotD does not change anything.

            Ultimately, legitimate sellers are the ones that stand to win the most, because the chance of their offers getting noticed are much higher when their offer is promoted as a DotD. It is my goal to promote exactly those types of offers, which then will actually skew the statistics the other direction than what you might think.

            Anyway, there is simply no way to prove this using any accurate measurements. The one thing that I can go by is buyer satisfaction with offers I have promoted, and overall it has been very high. People are finding good offers with good information that they want to use.

            Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


              In addition to just the # of sales made, I also consider testimonials, refund rates, length of time on sale, and other minor factors. If an offer is selling well, getting good testimonials and few refunds, it is likely providing good value and those who are buying are happy with it.
              Mike
              Mike,

              There are several flaws in this. You have no way to know what a products refund rate is other that taking the sellers word for it. Just because there are not a ton of complaints on the WSO thread itself doesn't mean the product has nothing but happy customers. The vast majority of WSO buyers are reluctant to ask for a refund unless the the product is priced higher than $20. That comes from reading multiple discussions where people line up one after another to say that they rarely ask for refunds on low dollar WSO's because it's not worth their time to deal with it.

              Testimonials can be easily faked. I've seen people have their friends make glowing testimonials without ever using the product or after getting a free copy. We have had people who have multiple accounts here who give their own WSO's great testimonials. While most of those are caught quickly not all of them are and several have slipped through the cracks and are left up.

              The simple fact is that unless your plowing through the sales data generated by people using WSO Pro, which in my mind is a violation of the sellers and buyers privacy, you have no way to qualify the standards you say you check.
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              • Profile picture of the author George Wright
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                • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                  Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

                  Johnny,

                  Actually the offer has to be a Warrior Pro offer to qualify and he as well as the seller knows exactly what the refund rate is.

                  George Wright
                  I covered that in my last part of the post. In order to verify that data he has to go through the sellers data on his site. He controls the site where sales and delivery processes are handled so he has access to every sellers and every buyers data. Accessing that data to me seems like a violation of privacy. Not everyone would want others to have access to there customer data.
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                  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
                    Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                    I covered that in my last part of the post. In order to verify that data he has to go through the sellers data on his site. He controls the site where sales and delivery processes are handled so he has access to every sellers and every buyers data. Accessing that data to me seems like a violation of privacy. Not everyone would want others to have access to there customer data.
                    Sorry Johnny,

                    I reread your post and already deleted mine. Man you are fast.

                    George Wright
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                Mike,

                There are several flaws in this. You have no way to know what a products refund rate is other that taking the sellers word for it. Just because there are not a ton of complaints on the WSO thread itself doesn't mean the product has nothing but happy customers. The vast majority of WSO buyers are reluctant to ask for a refund unless the the product is priced higher than $20. That comes from reading multiple discussions where people line up one after another to say that they rarely ask for refunds on low dollar WSO's because it's not worth their time to deal with it.

                Testimonials can be easily faked. I've seen people have their friends make glowing testimonials without ever using the product or after getting a free copy. We have had people who have multiple accounts here who give their own WSO's great testimonials. While most of those are caught quickly not all of them are and several have slipped through the cracks and are left up.

                The simple fact is that unless your plowing through the sales data generated by people using WSO Pro, which in my mind is a violation of the sellers and buyers privacy, you have no way to qualify the standards you say you check.
                The sales data is exactly how I decide, Johnny. I see the exact number of sales, refunds, etc... No need to guess or take anyone's word for it.

                I do agree that at times people do not ask for a refund, but I simply can't go on data that is not there. I think my process for selecting offers has been pretty good, to be honest.

                Of course testimonials can be faked, but most often the offers that I have promoted included testimonials from those I know and trust. While this can't always be the case, it has been in many cases.

                No system is fool-proof - I just do the best I can. Allen himself has also promoted offers based on his best judgment, and I do the same. We are different, and just because I promote something doesn't mean Allen would, or vice versa.

                This goes for the "gurus" like Mike Filsaime, John Reese, Frank Kern, etc... as well. Just because they like something doesn't mean I will, or you will, or someone else will. We all just use our best judgment, and when we make mistakes, we (hopefully) correct them.

                Mike
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Steve,
                  The one thing I do not like about the WSO section is all the reviews by people who never even bought it, but are friends.
                  Are you talking about the ones where one established Warrior gives another one a review copy, the shills who give fake reviews, or both? Or something else entirely?


                  Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                The simple fact is that unless your plowing through the sales data generated by people using WSO Pro, which in my mind is a violation of the sellers and buyers privacy, you have no way to qualify the standards you say you check.
                This is a bit off track, but these privacy concerns are a huge issue (at least for me -- I'm a fiercely private person). I'm the type who doesn't buy a product or use a service unless I know how my personal data is handled.

                Mike L, may I suggest that you add a privacy policy to your service. I just looked WSO Pro sales pages, and you do NOT tell people that you go through their stats. At least you don't disclose this prior to someone purchasing your service. If you do it after they've paid, that's a bit late. All potential customers should be able to access your privacy policy upfront.

                Secondly, WSO buyers should be aware that a third party has access to their information. If I purchase something from a Clickbank vendor, for example, I'm taken to an order form that includes a link to Clickbank's privacy policy. Or if I purchase something using PayPal, likewise the order form includes a link to PP's policies.

                But if I were to order something from a vendor using WSO Pro, the order button goes straight to PP. There is no intermediate step that alerts buyers to the fact that yet another party will have access to their information... nor that this third party is actively using this information. I'd bet some buyers wouldn't buy if they realized this.

                In short, you need to tell your customers as well as your customers' customers what you're doing with their private data.

                Cheers,
                Becky
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                  Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

                  This is a bit off track, but these privacy concerns are a huge issue (at least for me -- I'm a fiercely private person). I'm the type who doesn't buy a product or use a service unless I know how my personal data is handled.

                  Mike L, may I suggest that you add a privacy policy to your service. I just looked WSO Pro sales pages, and you do NOT tell people that you go through their stats. At least you don't disclose this prior to someone purchasing your service. If you do it after they've paid, that's a bit late. All potential customers should be able to access your privacy policy upfront.

                  Secondly, WSO buyers should be aware that a third party has access to their information. If I purchase something from a Clickbank vendor, for example, I'm taken to an order form that includes a link to Clickbank's privacy policy. Or if I purchase something using PayPal, likewise the order form includes a link to PP's policies.

                  But if I were to order something from a vendor using WSO Pro, the order button goes straight to PP. There is no intermediate step that alerts buyers to the fact that yet another party will have access to their information... nor that this third party is actively using this information. I'd bet some buyers wouldn't buy if they realized this.

                  In short, you need to tell your customers as well as your customers' customers what you're doing with their private data.

                  Cheers,
                  Becky
                  Becky,

                  Agreed on much of what you are saying regarding setting up a privacy policy; I do need to do that. I have always been bad about that and realize it is time to do it to protect everyone.

                  But, just to be clear, I only look at aggregate data, not data from individual transactions. The only time I look at individual transaction is if someone comes to me with a problem (like they didn't get their download), so that I can fix it. The data is certainly never shared.

                  Hope that clears things up a little bit.

                  Mike

                  PS: Does anyone have a good source for getting a privacy policy put together?
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                  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
                    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


                    PS: Does anyone have a good source for getting a privacy policy put together?
                    Contact Brian Kindsvater here on the forum, or talk with your local lawyer.

                    Cheers,
                    Becky
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                • Profile picture of the author Nigel Greaves
                  Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

                  This is a bit off track, but these privacy concerns are a huge issue (at least for me -- I'm a fiercely private person). I'm the type who doesn't buy a product or use a service unless I know how my personal data is handled.

                  Mike L, may I suggest that you add a privacy policy to your service. I just looked WSO Pro sales pages, and you do NOT tell people that you go through their stats. At least you don't disclose this prior to someone purchasing your service. If you do it after they've paid, that's a bit late. All potential customers should be able to access your privacy policy upfront...


                  ... But if I were to order something from a vendor using WSO Pro, the order button goes straight to PP. There is no intermediate step that alerts buyers to the fact that yet another party will have access to their information... nor that this third party is actively using this information. I'd bet some buyers wouldn't buy if they realized this.

                  In short, you need to tell your customers as well as your customers' customers what you're doing with their private data.

                  Cheers,
                  Becky
                  You're certainly correct in that assumption Becky. I purchased the WSO Pro set up and as soon as I realised that was it possible, regardless of whether or not Mike Lantz would, I decided not to use it.

                  The reason being two-fold; One, I think it's disrespectful to my customers and two, it almost certainly breaches E.U. and U.K. data protection legislation. Something all E.U. based Warriors need to be mindful of as they will be liable for the breaches as well as Mike Lantz.

                  In the same respect he emailed me twice last week using an email which had been changed from the one in my WSO Pro details. So his claim in response to Dennis (post#44) is rubbish "There was a glitch last week that caused an email to go out to people... .. But, this only happened once."

                  Ok, I accept "glitches" happen but the simple fact is that I'd already told Mike several months ago to remove me from his mailings. When I pointed this out to him, and followed it up with a second PM drawing his attention to the original request, his response was " I do recall your PM, and I did remove you from the list for that, too. In any case, like I mentioned, the 2 messages you received recently were in error, anyway." So that makes it acceptable?

                  I don't know about U.S. data legislation but in the U.K. that lax attitude to data handling would result in a rather large fine. The lack of an apology and general tone of his response is merely ignorant but either the poor data handling and his attitude to HIS mistakes certainly makes me glad I choose not to use his WSO Pro with my clients.

                  On the matter of the WSO of the day; I certainly was mislead by it as it put me under the impression that it was approved by, and in partnership with, Allen. The fact that it broke the WSO forum rules alone made it appear that Allen had at the very least sanctioned it.

                  I agree with Big Mike that there should be refunds to anyone who has purchased a WSO and subsequently seen the price slashed by it then being run as a forum rule breaking WSOoTD. The question is though, who would pay? Should it be the owner of the product/service or Mike Lantz as it now appears from his comments that he received the payment "so no more waiting up to a week for your half of the sales"?

                  It would probably be helpful to all concerned if Allen came into this thread and gave his take on things.

                  Nigel
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kelvin Chan
                    Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves View Post


                    It would probably be helpful to all concerned if Allen came into this threas and gave his take on things.

                    Nigel
                    You and me both Nigel, you and me both.

                    The sooner Allen steps in, the sooner everyone gets back into what they're supposed to be doing.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Mike,
              It would be difficult to measure this, but it certainly is possible. But, consider the fact that this thread itself with such a title is only contributing to the possible issues. It reminds of me a thread that says: "Hey, I found this website that has a ton of IMers stuff on it for free or being sold for $1. Here is the URL, is your stuff there?"
              Yep. And I believe that's part of the point. You do not bring this kind of problem to light unless you hope for a solution.
              Again, I received very few comments about concern over this issue. People are simply used to the fact that there are "sales" and that prices change often on everything. Just because I bought orange juice at the grocery store for 4 dollars and then next week it went on sale for $2 doesn't mean I am going to be angry at the store does it?
              Different issue entirely. Changing context doesn't help your analogies to hold. For example, the $4 orange juice wasn't billed as "best price" in most cases. In short - the sale price.

              It's fairly well-established that people whine more when they haven't spent money. When they have, and feel unfairly treated, the most common response it much quieter and more deadly: Shop elsewhere.

              There's also the factor that people tend not to look at an offer after they've purchased. So, some folks may not be aware of the price change.

              As I said, it's not yet been measured, and may not be measurable in the short term. I've heard enough about it myself to think it's more significant than your motivated reasoning leads you to believe.

              Note that I don't use Warrior Pro and don't run a lot of WSOs, so this isn't something in which I have a stake worth mentioning. I'm going on observations, comments from members, and direct experience.
              In addition to just the # of sales made, I also consider testimonials, refund rates, length of time on sale, and other minor factors. If an offer is selling well, getting good testimonials and few refunds, it is likely providing good value and those who are buying are happy with it. If that is the case, why would it be considered to be "scammy"?
              Come on, Mike. You already know the answer to that one.

              When people buy a product that's promising them the moon, the last thing they want is to acknowledge that they made a bad decision, or that they fell for a con. That would require admitting that the dream wasn't in that particular package.

              On top of that, the people who buy the kinds of WSOs I described are the least qualified to assess the value/utility of the information after their purchase.

              I just looked at one of the products in a previous WP-DotD, and I can assure you that you would not have included it if you'd read the main manual. You'd have known you were opening yourself up to a major lawsuit.

              Yeah. Really. I'll send you a copy if you want to see how dangerous this is for yourself.

              We normally only act on this stuff when there are complaints/notifications, when the seller has been previously banned, or when the ad copy is very clear about the nature of the advice.
              While I agree that offers that make certain types of promises may sell better, that does not mean they are bad offers and do not offer value to the buyers.
              I didn't say it did. In fact, I pointed out that it wasn't universally the case, didn't I?

              I said that the majority of the scams (almost all) make those kinds of promises, and that this makes those offers statistically more likely to be scams.

              Fact: Some of the most glowing comments I've seen were for offers that promoted stuff the sellers insisted was legal, or within the TOS of the target sites - and which wasn't. People want that Magic Button, Mike. If they think they smell it, they'll soak up almost any nonsense, or believe whatever best supports their desperate hopes.
              Whether or not it is promoted as a DotD does not change anything.
              Wait... Didn't you just say that DotD status increased sales in a big way? Or is my memory getting that bad?

              Of course it changes things. If the deals are scams, or advocate illegal/contractually forbidden activities, DotD status increases the number of people at risk. When it looked like those deals were endorsed by Allen, that increased his risk of lawsuits.

              Outlining your reasoning for how you choose them probably just increased yours.

              This is dangerous stuff, dude. Seriously.


              Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
              Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

              Again, I received very few comments about concern over this issue. People are simply used to the fact that there are "sales" and that prices change often on everything. Just because I bought orange juice at the grocery store for 4 dollars and then next week it went on sale for $2 doesn't mean I am going to be angry at the store does it?
              The WSO is meant to be the sale. You buy something as a WSO based on the fact that it is meant to be the cheapest (public) price available. To see the special price halved only days later and made available on the very same board makes the whole WSO process a joke. There is a section for posting items for sale at whatver price you feel like but the WSO has defined rules, one of which is it is the special price.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                The only consent given there is that you consented to pay Allen for the right to post your offer on his forum and he consented to take your payment.

                No one is going through every single WSO posted verfying them and agreeing with them. A WSO being run on this forum in no way implies Allens endorsement or consent of it. It just means you paid your money to run your advertisement.
                I never said anyone was "going through every single WSO posted and verifying them and agreeing with them".

                If I offer to pay you $20 to run a classified ad on your site and you agree...what would you call that if not consent? I can't run the ad without your consent can I?

                Consent and endorsement aren't the same thing.
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                • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                  Originally Posted by Lance K View Post


                  If I offer to pay you $20 to run a classified ad on your site and you agree...what would you call that if not consent? I can't run the ad without your consent can I?
                  The forum uses an automated system for WSO's that is only partially handled manually. Individual WSO's are not usually checked over and having a WSO running ONLY means that you paid your posting fee, nothing more.

                  There is nothing implied by having a WSO running. Allen has said this over and over. If you were talking about putting $20 cash in my hand and me manually uploading your ad to my site your point would be valid but the way the WSO section is set up its almost fully automated and there is very little manual work involved in getting a WSO up and running.

                  And just because a WSO is running and has been up for a while does not imply consent. That just means that no one has complained about it or reported it so the mods haven't seen it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      Originally Posted by Jag82 View Post


      2. The WSO price never has to be the lowest price.

      It just has to be better than the price the public at large can get.
      Jag

      This has been discussed many times here in the forum and Allen himself has more than once given his clarification on the matter.

      You are allowed to offer your own personal list the SAME pricing as whats in your WSO but you are not allowed to offer a lower price to ANYONE. Doing so completely negates the "special offer" status and makes your WSO listing nothing more than a paid advertisement.

      Anyone who has been a member of this forum for any length of time knows there are many unwritten rules we all go by, and the fact that your WSO list price must be your lowest offered price anywhere has always been one of them. At least from my understanding of the many discussions that have happened on the subject over the last several years that I have read or participated in.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    <tangent>

    I just wanted to commend BIG Mike, Mike Lantz and Paul Myers for showing all Warriors exactly how to have a civil discussion about weighty matters without it devolving into a nasty argument.

    Well done, gentlemen!

    </tangent>

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        <co-tangent>
        It's not often I disagree with you so clearly, Mike (yes - there are too many "Mikes"!) but although I can see it isn't superficially a "nasty argument", I've been finding Mike L's repeated aspersions cast against BIG Mike - with regard to the latter's motivation - really pretty offensive and hard to stomach. If I were an infraction-giver, this is a thread where I'd be active, and with the most one-sided outcome you could imagine. I think some of the behavior shown here has been really pretty despicable (especially the way it's been repeated even after Paul has made some very appropriately adverse comments about it) and clearly won't be winning many friends.
        </co-tangent>
        Alexa, I think you are being a little unfair. It sounds like you are lumping some comments of others into the things I have said.

        All I said was that it felt like Big Mike was doing this to attack me personally, based on some things I read into the original post as well as other threads created on this topic last month. I also said that I could be wrong.

        In any case, if Big Mike says it was not his intention to attack me personally, I am willing to let it go and not make it part of the discussion here. I am not
        100% convinced that his motives were pure here, but it really doesn't matter either way.

        Overall, I do think this entire thread has been very civil, which probably speaks well as to why it is still here. Hopefully no one will turn it into a big argument that does more harm than good.

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I'm getting dizzy, where's my martini shaker........

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

    If I were to buy a WSO only to find the price reduced by as much as 50% a day or two later, I'd be asking for a refund or doing a chargeback in a heartbeat.
    Wow...advocating a chargeback because the price dropped? That's insanity.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      Wow...advocating a chargeback because the price dropped? That's insanity.
      I couldn't have said it any better, LB. The title of this thread and some of that early commentary is why I have a hard timing seeing this as more than a thinly veiled personal attack.

      I do believe it has turned into a valid discussion, though, so that is a plus, but the initial impression that is being given to passersby is a bit skewed, I think.

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    While we are on the subject of legalities of offers and FTC guidelines and consumer protection law , in Missouri, it is a violation of Missouri Merchandising Practices Law (a part of consumer protection laws) to have two different prices on the same item in an individual market place.

    For example, you can not offer eggs for $2 in the back of the store and $.99 at the checkout stand.

    That is a violation of statute. Its my understanding that Missouri is NOT the only state with similar statutes.

    Now if you have two market places and one store offer eggs for $2 and another store offers them for $.99 there is no violation.

    I am aware that Missouri is currently looking at how to apply Missouri Merchandising Practices Law to online purchases.

    Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster is actively investigating online merchants for possible state violation, (even when there is no violation of statute where the merchant is headquartered)

    This also ties in to affiliate promotion and promotion by agent.

    (while I was typing this Mike Lantz stated that the orginal WSO isn't being offered while his program is offering the discount, In this case that portion of Missouri Merchandising Practices ls not being violated)

    Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    I have some questions/comments on both sides of this discussion.

    My question to Mike (L) is - are you doing any vetting of your selected WP Deal of the Day? or is it just whoever is making the most money?

    The reason I ask is I purchased one of them and found it to advocate blatant copyright infringement. I went through all the channels I could think of except to you, since the promotion was over. I do not feel promoting something that will get people into serious trouble is NOT helpful to anyone. And normal end user due diligence would not have caught this issue anyway.

    Since you are not selecting hundreds of offers a day - just at most one - why can't they be vetted more thoroughly? I understand why in general the WSOs themselves can not be vetted, & buyers should do their own due diligence; but you're endorsement gives a higher ranking to these WSOs - which is the purpose of course and a valid marketing system.

    My comments to Big Mike and Paul are to express my disappointment that this WSO is still running, despite the concerns I raised and that were confirmed by a well respected lawyer on this forum. I fully understand these threads and comments are online and if folks do proper due diligence they should find them - but I think we can all agree new folks to IM don't do enough due diligence.

    So if someone - Mike, and by implication Allen - gives some social justification to these WSOs - as a WSO of the Day - then that might trump any doubts raised by any other users.

    And so what happens if some State AG gets a wild hair up their bum on a slow news day to go looking for someone to take on? Are they going after a lone WSO author? or an entity with over a hundred thousand users, a high profile, and making enough money to get a nice-looking-on-TV settlement?

    peace,
    --Jack
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jack,
      my disappointment that this WSO is still running
      Send me the link to the WSO, and a screenshot or cut-and-paste of the part that advocates direct copying of copyrighted materials, please.



      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    Thanks Paul, I've emailed you the information.
    best,
    --Jack


    Jack, Quote:
    my disappointment that this WSO is still running
    Send me the link to the WSO, and a screenshot or cut-and-paste of the part that advocates direct copying of copyrighted materials, please.



    Paul
    Signature
    Let's get Tim the kidney he needs!HELP Tim
    Mega Monster WSO for KimW http://ow.ly/4JdHm


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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I am new here, never ran a wso, never intend to, but may buy some. I do not know Mike Lantz, I do not know Allen, I have bought from Big Mike. I have no idea who gets what part of a sale made off this site. I have no idea who gets a part of a sale made at these other sites.

    With that background, This forum has been very, very helpful to me & at an outrageously small one time fee. I would pay twice as much for a product to not screw Allen (who I do not know) who has created this forum that in my case has been practically life saving. No offense to Mike Lantz, But without knowing whether it helps or hurts Allen by buying a product available here at a different site, There is not a shot I'd do it.

    Sure business is business, and maybe I'll never be a household name (not that I'd want to anyway) but for me loyalty plays a much larger role than a few measly bucks.

    OK, I don't know Allen, but I do know many people, who without this resource he created and charges next to nothing to use, would be living under a bridge. Being new, I don't know if Allen gets a cut of the WP of the day or whatever it is called this week, but I can certainly tell you that I will never substitute loyalty for money. Not for any amount of money. (Another reason why I'll never be a household name. Lol). If the WP thing benefits Allen, I would have no problem buying there (as long as I didn't have to join a site in order to unsubscribe, that would end up as a legal problem.) If buying off this site would cost Allen a sale, you could charge a tenth the price and if it was a WSO I wanted, I'd buy it here. (I'd have to buy an awful lot of WSOs at double the price I could get elsewhere to make up for the value this place offers for what amounts to a token amount.)

    So, I feel it would be good, if there is a cut for Allen at W(PS)O or where ever, that that that be known. (At least for me and others as stupid as me.)

    Because this whole thread confuses the hell out of me. Lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Sepich
    The WSO Forum is pretty broken in my opinion. It needs a big overhaul, I hope Allen takes the time to make it better. Allen PM me if you want my input.

    George
    Signature

    Need Help? GeorgeSepich.com Digital Marketing Solutions From George Sepich.

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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Here are some other problems I see with the DoftD as it is now called.

    Mike, I thought the original WSO was still running, because I have seen people bumping their WSO and being almost next to what was the WSO of the Day for the same product. Also, don't you have a link on it to show the original WSO? Or are you saying the original WSO is closed, and the person then reopens it? Because it looks like you could buy it at 2 different prices on the same day.

    I think you should make people opt into the deals not opt out when using WarriorPlus for their buttons.

    The way the information is written it does look like Allen and the WF have approved this, you might want to check that out.

    But, how this is a WSO is beyond my understanding. I know it got approved, but doesn't it fail on being a product you have created?

    It is nothing more than a JV, and you are listing it. You are not the creator, and if anyone else tried to list a WSO as a JV Partner it wouldn't be allowed.

    This is another reason why people thought Allen had approved it, because it broke the rules. I did, I thought Allen had given you special permission to run this, and thought Allen was also getting a share of the profits which isn't the case.

    To me the DoftD shouldn't be allowed to continue in the WSO area, put it in the classified because it isn't a WSO, it is purely a JV.

    On the PM you sent yesterday, it was clear you knew it could be a problem.

    As you noticed, the "WSO of the Day" feature has been on hiatus for awhile as I have been working out some necessary changes in the system, as well as due to the way it was run being in a bit of a "gray area" of the Warrior Forum rules.
    Also, I hadn't seen anything before which said you took up to a week to pass over the sales.

    With the changes that have been made, it is easier than ever to setup a "WP Deal of the Day" offer, and the _payment split is now fully automatic_ (so no more waiting up to a week for your half of the sales).
    Am I right in saying you will no longer be starting a new WSO for the Deal of the Day, as you are asking people to edit their WSO title and bump it?

    Any reason for this or it is to do with the fact you're not eligible to run them as WSO because you didn't create them?
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    The sad thing here is that
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    Big Mike has made up so many things in all of his comments about this issue in an attempt to confuse everyone.
    By all means, please point out for me which of my comments were "Made Up".


    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    Most of the confusion around "WSO of the Day" was actually caused by him, not me or the "WSO of the Day" itself.
    No, I brought the issue up because of the confusion that already existed. I was confused certainly and rather get answers, I was attacked over asking the questions.



    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    And,
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    keep in mind that "WSO Pro" is not some system I put together overnight to benefit just myself as Big Mike would like you to believe. WSO Pro was developed over the last 2 years, and before that every single service on WarriorPlus was free and remain free today.
    At no time have I ever dissed your WSO Pro service - nor have I ever had reason to find fault with the WarriorPlus services you offer.


    This discussion is not about WSO Pro...it's about the "Deal of the Day", whether it be called the "WSO" or "Warrior Pro" deal.


    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    Come on Big Mike, really? I have never made any "contribution" to the forum?
    I suggest you read my comments a bit more closely Mike - I did not say you "never made any contribution to the Warrior Forum"...RazorRage was presenting the WSO Pro service and your work related to the WSO Forum as a "Contribution" to the WF, which it clearly wasn't.



    Contribution implies free and as you stated further on in your post you had to charge for it. And as I said, that's not a problem - we're all in business to make money.


    But let's get off our high horse as if this is some saintly offering you're making to the members. You offer a paid service, nothing more or less, to the members, from which you directly profit.


    As I said, my issues have nothing to do with WSO Pro - you're diverting attention from the real issue here.


    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    And, just to clarify, at no time did I EVER say that having an offer run as "WSO of the Day" somehow made it special or endorsed at all by the Warrior Forum. I would NEVER try to pass off anything I do as some official sanction from Allen unless I had permission to do so.
    And the converse is true as well - at no time did you ever make an effort to clearly indicate it was not officially sanctioned.


    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    You and a few others make a valid comment that I want to address...
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


    First, let me say that I am not saying Big Mike invented everything he said about possible "WSO of the Day" confusion, however he has made a lot of inferences that lead people to believe more than the simple facts.
    Again, I invite you specifically list those inferences for discussion.


    When I originally created "WSO of the Day", I PMed Allen multiple times asking if he had any concerns or suggestions for me creating such a service.
    No concerns were ever expressed, but nor am I saying he "endorsed" it either.
    Now you're being disingenuous Mike - you did not have explicit permission to do this and you know it. And you've been around the Warrior FOrum long enough to know that.

    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    For 3 months I posted 4-5 offers a week in conjunction with fellow Warriors.
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post



    Not ONCE did a single Warrior that I partnered with complain about the service or the results of each sale. On just a few occasions (2 or 3, I think) a buyer made a comment that they were a little annoyed that the price had dropped after they had paid more for it a few days earlier. However, just as many (if not more) previous buyers who had paid a higher price said it did not bother them at all. They stated that they understand the things go on sale all of the time, and that did not lessen the value of the product or experience for them.
    You made a comment earlier that I didn't have all the facts - what brought this issue to my attention was the number of complaints I was hearing directly, from my own customers who confided in me their concerns about the Warrior Forum ripping them off. It wasn't 2 or 3 people I was hearing this from, it more like 50 or 60. And what pissed me off was their belief that the Warrior Forum was doing this to them. They weren't confused per se - they saw offers they spent their hard earned money on suddenly being discounted even further by what they believed to be the Warrior Forum.


    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    As far as I'm concerned, BIG Mikes complaint about WSO of the day somehow ripping off previous buyers of a WSO is completely invalid.
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post


    Just look at his own products at Icansoft. He frequently runs promotions where you can use a coupon code to get a deep discount on his products.

    Now Mike, you suggested that WSO sellers refund buyers if their WSO gets selected as WSO of the day. Do you refund those people who buy your products before you run a promotion on them?
    Actually, we do - and we also tell potential customers making an inquiry about products about an upcoming sales to save them money.

    There is NOTHING wrong with WSO of the Day. It is an optional feature of WSO Pro, and saying that it is somehow ripping off WSO customers is absurd. It is the equivalent of saying that running a special sale for your products (which EVERY company does) is unethical.
    This wrong on a number of levels...


    Firstly, When (I think it was Paul Myers approving it) the very first WSO was approved back in the day, it was an opportunity for members to offer other members a discount on their products. From there, it evolved into one of the USP's for being a member of the Warrior Forum - and later the War Room. In fact, the Warrior Forum has grown famous for the WSO forum, which is often copied by other forums now.

    Now we've still got the WSO forum, but also a third party extension of this through WSO Pro, a sort of "WSO within a WSO" if you will.

    FACT - The WSO of the Day was not equally available to all Warrior Forum members. Only those members choosing to use WSO Pro were given the opportunity and only after paying $18 for the service.

    The problem with this is that those members who already had an automated system in place like DLGuard, never got equal consideration for being chosen as the WSO of the Day and were "Left Out".

    I won't speak for Allen Says on whether he endorses WSO of the Day (I'm calling it this because this is the name I am familiar with). I know he endorses WSO Pro.
    Let's be clear again - no one, including myself is dissing WSO Pro or it's value to those members who do not have their own automated system in place. This thread has nothing to do with it at all. Ok?


    And I know there is a feature where one can JV with Allen to get their WSO featured through WSO Pro.

    I think it's fair to say that if Allen had a problem with WSO of the day, he would have done something about it by now.
    He did do something about it - he had Mike stop offering them.

    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    That's debatable.
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    It seems pretty clear from his original post that he thinks poorly of Mike and his service. Whether he altered it and recanted part of his post is irrelevant. It's obvious what his feelings are, and I feel that they are unfair and biased.

    And as Mike Lantz has stated in some of his posts, many of BIG Mikes accusations are totally false.

    And this may be just me, but I would say that if his intentions were malicious, then it would matter a great deal. But, as I stated in an earlier post, I don't think this is the case.
    No I do not think poorly of the WSO Pro services - I think poorly of the idea of running a WSO of the Day promotion through a third party service that is not open to all WF Members.

    As to Mike Lance, rather than respond to my comments in other threads, he framed me as a "Complainer" who was trying to hurt other members. I was disappointed in that response to say the least.


    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    Hey Paul,
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


    While I never saw these comments, I do think they may be valid to bring up. It gives you an idea of the frame of mind Mike was in when he made this post, don't you think?

    Seriously, just look at the title of this post and half of his original post. Big Mike surely has malicious intent here, Paul, especially taken in context of previous threads on this topic (that are now locked). While it may lead to a (somewhat) valid discussion, that doesn't change the intent in which it was posted.

    Mike
    Mike, come on - is there anything incorrect in that OP? Or the title of it? The fact is my statements are correct - framed the way they are, it gives a different perspective on WSO's and the Deal of the Day, though doesn't it?


    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    Just because it is a paid service, it does not mean it is not a contribution.Technically, WSO of the Day is a free service offered to WSO Pro users, which is a paid service.
    Which excludes a significant number of Warrior Forum members simply because they have their own system in place.



    WSO Pro offers many features for WSO sellers that are otherwise unavailable (without extensive work on the part of the seller).
    Not really - and I'm not bashing WSO Pro here, but there are many off the shelf systems that do this without any extensive work. One of the best ones is DLGuard - Sam put that together years ago to help members.



    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    Hey Dennis,
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


    I think you are right that what you guys are talking about stems from a difference in context. I don't think Razer is necessarily taking what you say out of context, though, but only seeing Big Mike's context differently than you are. Only Big Mike can shed light on the context for sure.

    When I read it (and taking into account the other comments he made in this and other threads), I take it to mean that he doesn't feel like any of the services on my WarriorPlus site (which he called "WSO services") are a contribution at all. Basically, it feels like he is attacking me and my site for reasons unknown to me.

    Now, I could be wrong about this - and perhaps I am just being defensive - but, I am generally known for being reasonable and have really tried to see the other side of his comments, but am having trouble finding the "good" right now.

    Mike
    Mike, this has nothing to do with WSO Pro, nor does it have anything to do with Warrior Plus. I've NEVER made a single negative comment about these two services in any context. Search the WF and see for yourself...

    My concerns are, and have always been limited to the "WSO of the day" and the revised, "WP Deal of the Day". I can't help the fact that your name is associated with them - you're the one who owns them, so you're the one who answers for them.


    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    I couldn't have said it any better, LB. The title of this thread and some of that early commentary is why I have a hard timing seeing this as more than a thinly veiled personal attack.

    I do believe it has turned into a valid discussion, though, so that is a plus, but the initial impression that is being given to passersby is a bit skewed, I think.

    Mike
    Come on Mike, don't try to spin it into a personal attack...that's beneath you. You and I have no personal beef and I have nothing to gain from it. I've expressed my concerns and the facts as I know them, based on complaints passed on to me by my own customers.

    Now, you've already admitted that the original WSO of the Day violated the WSO forum rules, so there's not need to rehash that. But as to my comments about chargebacks?

    Here is how I see it - you tell me if I'm wrong, OK?

    1. Seller launches a WSO, say at $67, which subsequently takes off.

    2. Because they use WSO Pro, they can now qualify for the deal of the day if they've gotten good reviews and few, if any refunds.

    3. Instead of you running a separate WSO for the deal, you now have the original WSO's price reduced. Bear in mind, this is while the WSO is still running.

    4. You are earning a commission on every sale during that 24 hour period, right?

    5. So, Tuesday morning I pop into the WSO Forum, and buy the WSO for $67, download it and start going through it. Tuesday afternoon I pop back in there to leave a comment and WTF? Now it's $37?

    The first thing I'm going to do is contact the seller and ask for a refund in the difference in price. If they refuse, then yes, I will do a chargeback because I just got screwed.

    This isn't like a case where the WSO was closed and then a month later run again at a lower price - this is a case where the WSO was still active under the original discount and is now being discounted even further. I'm surprised you don't see what's wrong with that.

    This brings me back to my question about why we need a WSO within a WSO?

    So who benefits? And please, this isn't an accusation just a fact - you do benefit through your commission, right? And presumably the seller makes of the difference through volume sales (although I find that questionable over a 24 period), right?

    But, wouldn't you agree that everyone who bought the WSO up to the point of the deal of the day sort of got screwed? How did those folks benefit?

    So in my OP, I pointed out the obvious - nothing more, didn't I? The fact is if you wait until a WSO is on a Deal of the Day, you save up to 50%, right?

    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    It would be difficult to measure this, but it certainly is possible. But, consider the fact that this thread itself with such a title is only contributing to the possible issues. It reminds of me a thread that says: "Hey, I found this website that has a ton of IMers stuff on it for free or being sold for $1. Here is the URL, is your stuff there?"
    The difference Mike is that it's happening right here in our own forum. And I did not state anything that was not factual in terms of how they could save. Is there a problem with being transparent about this?


    I see this evolving into something that is harmful overall to folks running WSO's because no matter how good one may be, a member's first thought is going to eventually become, "Let's hold off and see if the price drops on a DotD". That hurts the sellers...in a big way.

    Since this came to light, I stopped buying WSO's run through WSO Pro, simply because you never know when a better deal might be offered. In the big scheme of things that probably doesn't mean much, except that I'm not going to review the product and or let my own list know about it if it's a good one.

    The shame of it Mike is that there is nothing wrong with the WSO Pro service - it's the DotD that's muddying the waters here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post


      The shame of it Mike is that there is nothing wrong with the WSO Pro service - it's the DotD that's muddying the waters here.

      Maybe we should all run our own "Deal of the Day" and see how it performs.
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  • Profile picture of the author GoGetta
    Just out of interest and probably off subject somewhat.....

    But,

    Having launched a few WSOs in the past I think WSO of the Day is a great idea, just used wrongly! With the amount of Scam WSOs out there, I think it is important that WSOs that are worth their weight in gold should be shouted from the rooftops!!!!

    This helps warriors on both sides of the coin!!

    BUT,

    Rather than slashing the cost of the WSO, which I agree is an issue, why can't you just take a small percentage of the actual CURRENT selling price, obviously if the seller agrees????

    This way there is profit all around, it is optional, and WSOs that make it to WSO of the day, are actually worthy of the title!!!

    Just a thought.....Probably been discussed before but to me, this makes sense!!

    The profit is still there, but it works all round!!!

    Just my 2 cents

    As far as this thread goes and the point Big Mike brings up, many Warrior members think like this. For example, my latest WSO launched only last week and when I launched it, I recieved more than a few emails from Warriors stating they were waiting for the WSO of the day to pick it up, so they could get it cheaper????

    As I was new to WSO Pro, first WSO run through it, I was unaware what the WSO Of The Day actually was. But, I am sure this has lost me sales, as I didn't launch my new WSO with the intention to hopefully get WSO of the day, so the Warriors waiting for it to reduce in price, PROBABLY DIDN'T BUY IT!!!

    There are many arguments and views but this is what happened with my latest WSO and I haven't had this before, so, this way of thinking from Warriors must be getting more universal now?

    I know this isn't a "WSO OF THE DAY IDEAS" thread, but thought I would throw this out there!

    GoGetta
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    • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
      Originally Posted by GoGetta View Post

      Just out of interest and probably off subject somewhat.....

      But,

      Having launched a few WSOs in the past I think WSO of the Day is a great idea, just used wrongly! With the amount of Scam WSOs out there, I think it is important that WSOs that are worth their weight in gold should be shouted from the rooftops!!!!
      I would agree with you, especially if Allen was promoting or getting a % of the sales.

      As it is or has been, Mike L has been choosing and even though he says there are many factors, the main ones seem to come down to finance. How much money can he make from a WSO whose price is cut in half and he them gets 50% of the sales.

      There have been more than 1 scam sold as a WSO of the Day, and lots of newbies who have bought and been burnt because of it.

      It says the products are reviewed, but it doesn't look like it especially when the wso promotes breaking the law.

      If Mike L wants to promote a WSO, why doesn't the seller send him a copy to review it before he makes a final decision, this would get rid of some of the "Get rich quickly" wso which he is promoting.

      Allen used to have featured WSO, and that would be a far better idea where Allen decides which product to feature, and Allen gets a % of the sales.

      A number of the WSO of the Day, the OP has disappeared because they are broke and can't make any money online, even though the product promised riches galore.

      Bev
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post


        A number of the WSO of the Day, the OP has disappeared because they are broke and can't make any money online, even though the product promised riches galore.

        Bev
        That would be really funny if it wasn't so sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
    I've read the whole thread so far, and I just want to point out that in my observation, Lantz, you appear to be waffling when it suits you.

    You seem to doubt that people assuming you are materially/officially connected to the Warrior Forum is likely. I thought so, and lots of others did too.

    But then later, you say Allen contacted you in regards to FTC concerns. Those concerns could ONLY be regarding consumer confusion over use of the name "WSO", which I assume Allen has trademarked. Regardless of if it's registered, it's trademarked legally as long as he defends his rights to sole use. Like in this case.

    And you say you understand Allen's reasons for having you change the name, yet don't understand how people assumed you were somehow part of a special deal. I certainly did. Allen sees how the FTC might look at it that way, too.

    What I see here is someone willfully leveraging on the branding built-up by someone else and then pretending it wasn't intentional all along. What I see is someone using that leverage to then cut an exclusive JV with customer/vendors which undercuts the very marketplace that created the branding you're co-opting.

    If vendors get the benefits you say, I doubt they complain much. But the whole WSO forum is only profitable in the first place because there are more customers here than sellers, and the scenario as it exists now harms the consumer side of the equation. And as others have pointed out, when you bruise the market that way, they often bear it silently and you never see them again. A lack of complaints does not automatically mean satisfaction.

    Another point that was made that bothered me was that "people don't re-look at promotions after they've bought, so they won't get mad". This "what they don't know won't hurt them" attitude is terribly unethical for a business person to have towards their customers. Especially when what we sell primarily is INFORMATION.

    Our literal job is to make our customer MORE informed and MORE empowered. In no part of an ethical info-marketing business plan should there be a component that relies on the customer base being left in the dark this way.

    Moreso than ANY other industry, confusion for the consumer has no place in legit info marketing and selling. Unless you're strictly preaching independence while actually fostering dependence.

    The entire model for that particular service is basically just a big old tick siphoning customers off the "normal" WSO channel, using the "hotness" of the product as bait, and training customers there to "wait for a better deal" when the whole POINT of the WF is that you can trust you're already GETTING the best deal that there is.

    My own take: It shouldn't be POSSIBLE to slash the WSO price in half, because that means you as the vendor didn't do a good enough deal for a WSO in the first place. Consider the kind of influence on WSO pricing this may have as well - am I going to really give a good offer if I know I have a chance at all these additional magical sales if I get invited to cut my price in half? I'd think I'd almost leave myself some room as far as pricing is concerned.

    And I know some people saying that I'm thinking about the pricing and value too much on these information products, and to that I say, maybe you're not trying hard enough to make awesome products that are worth what's being charged. The offer you make on a WSO should already HURT you margin-wise. It doesn't HAVE to, but in my mind, that's the SPIRIT behind the WSO.

    And if you're a consumer and you feel that you don't care so much about the price you pay as compared to the quality of the info, you're probably not very wise with how you spend your money. If that's you, I have some advice. Regardless of what anyone tries to sell you to make it magically happen, you will probably have trouble sustaining any kind of commercial enterprise of your own.

    Unless of course, you don't have any problems with making your way in the world through confusion and obfuscation. In which case, you're probably learning all the "right" lessons from the junk for sale out there anyways.
    Signature

    Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

      I've read the whole thread so far, and I just want to point out that in my observation, Lantz, you appear to be waffling when it suits you.

      (edited out)

      Unless of course, you don't have any problems with making your way in the world through confusion and obfuscation. In which case, you're probably learning all the "right" lessons from the junk for sale out there anyways.
      Colin, excellent reply. I agree.

      As to your comment about already giving the best price, I've personally
      taken that to a new level.

      Most of my WSOs now aren't even offered to the general public at any
      price. In other words, only my private list and the WSO forum gets them.

      I am not saying that everybody has to do this. Some people can't afford
      to make products just for their list and the WSO board, but in my mind,
      that makes a WSO REALLY special...that this is the only place you can
      get it PERIOD...unless you're on the person's list.

      I know many will disagree with that, and that's fine. I do still offer some
      WSOs that anybody can get at the higher price, but those are fewer
      and farther in between.

      Ultimately, it doesn't matter what any of us thinks. Allen is going to decide
      how WSOs are run and what will and won't be allowed.

      And as Big Mike brought up earlier about tiered pricing, feeling that it's
      not right, if Allen decides to change that, so be it. It's his forum and his
      rules.

      To Paul Myers:

      I would be interested to know your personal opinion on tiered pricing for
      WSOs. Do you feel it is fair? I do value your opinion and am curious as to
      what you think...not to take this thread too far off tangent, but since
      it was brought up, maybe it should be addressed.
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  • Profile picture of the author zoobie
    Well, I totally don't understand this but may be Allen and his team wants to benefit those who contribute here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I've seen this over and over again in heated forum discussions
    on many a boards. But ...

    NO ONE CAN DEFEND HIMSELF AGAINST A MOTIVE (INTENT) ATTACK.

    Only God knows motives because only He can read hearts.

    It's best to stick to the facts and leave motives out of the
    question because there is no way to PROVE motives.

    How can anyone judge WHY someone said something?

    It's hard to leave out motives judgments do but it will keep the discussion fair.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Mike, that might be the case, but it doesn't answer why I got a PM for a WSO using WarriorPro, when I was already using it.

    Have sent you a PM regarding a possible issue.

    Bev
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      Mike, that might be the case, but it doesn't answer why I got a PM for a WSO using WarriorPro, when I was already using it.

      Have sent you a PM regarding a possible issue.

      Bev
      It was likely just a glitch - for some reason the system did not see that your WSO was using WSO Pro before it sent the message. It did happen a few times. In any case, this automated PM is no longer being sent at all, as I explained earlier.

      I'll look for your PM.

      Thanks,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        There is NOTHING wrong with WSO of the Day.
        I haven't used WP as a service - but it seems very useful (though I have the same reservations about privacy as Becky mentioned). Mainly, I know Allen endorsed it - and that's good enough for me.

        I have had a BIG problem with WSO of the Day since it began. I said nothing because I thought that had been cleared with Allen. To me, it would not have continued to be offered if allen disapproved.

        The problem with the designation was that it DID infer that the offer featured was being recommended by the Warrior Forum. There is no way new members here thought anything except that.

        Sellers began to play off the JV by starting their sales page using text such as "this offer was awarded WSO of the day" - and "thanking" the WF humbly. This was becoming common practice before someone finally posted about it here some time ago.

        I've previously said that if WSO of the day was to remain it should include a disclaimer clearly stating you were not reviewing the product prior to recommending it. Reviewing sales stats is not the same as vetting a product and we all know that.

        I don't think there should be any "of the day" unless Allen specifically approves it - and it doesn't sound like he did. I thoroughly dislike the "of the day" designations. If "deal of the day" is now going to be used, I still think a full disclaimer is necessary on the page offered as a "deal".

        Nothing should indicate that anything other than a special price is being offered - and no seller should be able to play up this JV as adding a "recommendation from the WF" to their WSO. I have no problem with WarriorPro or with Mike Lantz making money from it but I don't agree that "no answer" from Allen means "proceed as you wish". I'd take it as "proceed at your own risk".

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I haven't used WP as a service - but it seems very useful (though I have the same reservations about privacy as Becky mentioned). Mainly, I know Allen endorsed it - and that's good enough for me.

          I have had a BIG problem with WSO of the Day since it began. I said nothing because I thought that had been cleared with Allen. To me, it would not have continued to be offered if allen disapproved.

          The problem with the designation was that it DID infer that the offer featured was being recommended by the Warrior Forum. There is no way new members here thought anything except that.

          Sellers began to play off the JV by starting their sales page using text such as "this offer was awarded WSO of the day" - and "thanking" the WF humbly. This was becoming common practice before someone finally posted about it here some time ago.

          I've previously said that if WSO of the day was to remain it should include a disclaimer clearly stating you were not reviewing the product prior to recommending it. Reviewing sales stats is not the same as vetting a product and we all know that.

          I don't think there should be any "of the day" unless Allen specifically approves it - and it doesn't sound like he did. I thoroughly dislike the "of the day" designations. If "deal of the day" is now going to be used, I still think a full disclaimer is necessary on the page offered as a "deal".

          Nothing should indicate that anything other than a special price is being offered - and no seller should be able to play up this JV as adding a "recommendation from the WF" to their WSO. I have no problem with WarriorPro or with Mike Lantz making money from it but I don't agree that "no answer" from Allen means "proceed as you wish". I'd take it as "proceed at your own risk".

          kay
          Hey Kay, thanks for your comments.

          I agree that it is clear now that there has been some confusion by some people over the "WSO of the Day". It was never my intention for this to occur, nor did I sanction or know about sellers claiming it was some sort of award or directly affiliated with the forum.

          In my mind (perhaps being a little too logical), I figured if Allen wanted to endorse something directly he would post about it himself or promote it in one of his "Warrior Forum Recommended" ads. I did not assume someone would think that a WSO posted by "warriorplus" (which clearly leads to the warriorplus.com website) would constitute a direct endorsement or recommendation from the forum, as Allen has many other channels to make his own posts and recommendations.

          Looking back, I do see how having a clear disclaimer in each post would have been better, but hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?

          -----

          As an aside, the real sad thing about all of this for me is just to see how some folks want to nitpick at everything someone does. Good intentions or not, it simply makes it more difficult to do business in an efficient way.

          As I said earlier, I created WarriorPlus to help users of the Warrior Forum. It has been around for many years, and I have received many thanks from many of you, and I have always appreciated the kind comments and recognition of what I was doing.

          For years there was no money involved at all, and I didn't mind. In a lot of ways, what I was doing at WarriorPlus was an "incubator" for my ideas that I would later launch outside of the ecosystem of the forum. It helped me while helping others - a true win-win.

          I created WSO Pro and WSO of the Day in the same spirit - a way for everyone involved to win. I believe in that respect it has mainly succeeded.

          There are always going to be those who do not like what you are doing. In a lot of cases, it can be out of jealousy, because they are not as successful as they would like to be and then would rather take it out on you than improve themselves. In other cases, some people have very set opinions and when something runs against that, they speak out. Nothing wrong with that.

          Ultimately, we all should evaluate why we are doing things, and if they are not for the right reasons, we should stop. Of course, the "right reasons" are clearly open to individual interpretation, which is why we have scammers who are only interested in themselves, and also why we have those who spend full-time serving others with no tangible benefits in return.

          I will continue to do my best to be an ethical marketer, who hopefully gives more than he gets from others. If I can do that, I will feel like I have been successful. WarriorPlus, WSO Pro and its services have made me feel that way.

          It is only threads like these that make us ask "Is it worth it?" Is it worth the headache from an outspoken few to continue to serve those who do not speak at all, or who give thanks in private? Sometime it just feels like you can't win.

          And, if we make others feel like that, than we all lose.

          Just my thoughts.

          Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelvin Chan
    Many of you have provided your POINTS of VIEWS and perspectives and they make for very good discussion points.

    E.g.
    1) Deal of the Day being a WSO within a WSO ... Or is it?
    2) Judging motives, etc.
    3) Sense of loss from having bought at a higher price just hours or days before
    4) Et cetera, et cetera

    I'm just thinking aloud here ... Why hasn't Allen commented? (Or am I tired and missed out something?)

    Peace folks!
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      Sadly, the last time Allen got envolved with a major thread like this he alluded to closing the WSO Forum. Even sadder others shouted "DO IT!"

      George Wright

      Originally Posted by Kelvin Chan View Post

      I'm just thinking aloud here ... Why hasn't Allen commented? (Or am I tired and missed out something?)

      Peace folks!
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      "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

        Sadly, the last time Allen got envolved with a major thread like this he alluded to closing the WSO Forum. Even sadder others shouted "DO IT!"

        George Wright
        Although I would miss the good deals too many folks rely on WSO's for their business. It's their bread and butter. Even Allen says not to do that. Maybe shutting it down for a few months would really force people to earn their keep online.

        My understanding is the same as other that the WSO has to be the best offer available. If my WSO is priced at $27 and then it's offered as a WP/WSO Deal of the Day for $12 at the same time the $27 WSO is running that original WSO is no longer the best deal. Someone might not see the deal of the day and buy the higher priced WSO during the 24-hour period thus violating the spirit of the WSO.

        Unless the original WSO is pulled while it's offered as a deal of the day? I'm not familiar with WSO Pro. But that might solve the rules violation if the original WSO price is not available during it's tenure as "deal of the day" so warriors are truly getting the best deal.

        But I also agree that I don't see how WSO-DOD can be a WSO offered since it's not Mike's product. We can't offer WSO's for affiliate programs and he's basically an affiliate. Someone mentioned moving the DOD to the classifieds section that might be a better home for it.

        And oh yea, I also thought WSO of the Day was an award for special outstanding WSO's selected by the admins. Had no clue it is, what it is. That was my assumption and you know what happens when you assume. :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason_V
        Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

        Sadly, the last time Allen got envolved with a major thread like this he alluded to closing the WSO Forum. Even sadder others shouted "DO IT!"

        George Wright

        Yes, sometimes silence is indeed golden.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post


    That's not a fact, it's a myth. Deal of the Day is available to everyone. Honestly, the way you talk, you make it sound as though Mike was discriminating against warriors.
    You are wrong here. The Deal of the Day is available as long as you use the WSO Pro to run your original WSO. I know when I first used it, you had to opt out of running a Deal of the Day.

    There are many people who will never be asked to run a Deal of the Day, because they have their own system in place for running and delivering their products.

    I bought a licence when Mike L brought it out in beta, and the first WSO I ran I couldn't use it because of the offer I was making. It was a learning curve and Mike L answered my questions.

    But, if you are thinking Mike L choses any WSO which he believes to be a good fit then you are wrong. It is from the limited number using his system.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
    Interesting discussion. However I do believe a bunch of highly intelligent folks are adding complexity to a few fundamental issues that (at least in my mind) are quite simple having to do with the spirit of the WSO section and why it was created in the first place.

    1) Unfair advantage

    Mike L - At its core a "WSO of the Day" or "WP of the Day" artificially creates an unfair advantage for those whom you choose to promote. Why? Because it singles out a specific WSO (at your sole discretion) and artificially increases its perceived value and positioning among ALL the rest of the offers by adding a title to it.

    In my mind this goes entirely against the spirit of the WSO section, which is designed to give no one an unfair advantage for ANY reason. Heck, even the War Room WSO gets listed in that forum without special attention or artificial positioning (notwithstanding the ad in the lower right corner, granted). Something to consider.

    2) Confusion

    As many have rightly pointed out, your positioning of "WSO of the Day" or "WP of the Day" - and really, its mere existence - gives the blatant impression that Allen is directly involved with it. As far as I've seen you've done nothing to offset that. Actually I don't even know what you could do to offset it... and therein lies the problem.

    This is not much different than when a marketer creates a "third party" association in the marketplace, then uses that association to effectively "endorse" its own products or services. You're essentially creating artificial credibility that causes both confusion and, again, an unfair advantage.

    3) Intent

    This is a big one and few have hit on it directly.

    Other than adding revenue to your own pocket, why did you create "WSO of the Day" or "WP of the Day" in the first place? It really is a matter of intent.

    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    I created WSO Pro and WSO of the Day in the same spirit - a way for everyone involved to win.
    Everyone involved meaning you and the Warrior you're choosing to promote at that time? Again this comes down to fairness and no unfair advantage being the basis for the WSO section.

    From what I've seen the WSO Pro service itself is extremely valuable and effective for those who use it. The intent behind that product is clear: provide a valuable service at an affordable price that makes posters' lives easier, and make a fair profit for doing so.

    But I fundamentally have to question the intent of the "WSO of the Day" type concept because all it looks like to me (and many others it seems) is taking advantage of your positioning to add revenue to your own pockets above and beyond the legitimate and valuable service being provided.

    Bottom line: To me this is not about technicalities - it's about honoring the spirit of the WSO section as Allen created it to be.

    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
    Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves View Post

    it almost certainly breaches E.U. and U.K. data protection legislation. Something all E.U. based Warriors need to be mindful of as they will be liable for the breaches
    Obviously the above bothers me. I've been aware from day one that the system would allow Mike to see sales numbers, refund rates etc, but it never occurred to me that he would be able to access individual customer data - names and addresses etc. Please could you confirm how far this goes and how long such data is kept for, Mike? Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Mike L -

      Thank you for taking my comments in the way in which they were intended. WarriorPlus has been a tool I've often used and I know how much time you have contributed in supporting that site.

      I've never questioned your intent - only the "perception" created by that one "of the day" offer.
      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    FACT
    - The WSO of the Day was not equally available to all Warrior Forum members. Only those members choosing to use WSO Pro were given the opportunity and only after paying $18 for the service.
    That's not a fact, it's a myth. Deal of the Day is available to everyone. Honestly, the way you talk, you make it sound as though Mike was discriminating against warriors.
    This is not a Myth and is a FACT.

    Any war room member can post a WSO. But only WSOPro customers can opt in to be a WSO of the day- therefore - wso of the day is not available to all warrior forum members.

    Deal of the Day is NOT available to everyone -only to those who pay the additional money to Mike to use the wsopro system.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jag82
      I have a few points I want to add on...

      1. Looking through the WSO rules section, you can find this:

      A Warrior Special Offer Means The Price You Give Must Be Better Than The Price The Public At Large Can Get.
      A WSO means a good special deal that is generally
      only available to Warriors.

      But nowhere does it says that it absolutely has
      to be the BEST (lowest) price ever.

      Admin, correct me if I'm wrong.


      2. I do understand a buyer's unhappiness
      when he suddenly realizes he could have
      gotten a better deal had he waited longer.

      I really can understand that.

      But offering discounts, are part of business.

      Even if you were to announce a discount/coupon
      sale in advance, there will probably still be people
      who have bought earlier.

      And they may possibly be upset, which
      is natural.

      But are they all entitled to a refund, just
      because they bought it earlier, and miss out
      on the promotion?

      Truth is - if we were to offer a discount sale
      - some people will miss out on the offer.

      And some people will be very happy to get in.


      To put it in perspective, let me ask you a question:

      You have a product listed on your website
      selling at the normal price, and at the same time
      you have a WSO running.

      What if someone bought it before hand and he
      didn't know you offering a WSO at a lower price
      - will you offer to refund all of these past
      customers who missed out on the special deal?

      You probably don't think it's fair, don't you?

      And at the same time, I don't think you will
      intentionally want to give your customers
      the shorter end of the stick.

      Special offers and special-special offers are
      just part of the business.


      3. I don't think Mike Lantz is intentionally
      trying to dupe buyers with "WSO of the Day".

      After all, these offers still have to be
      sent for approval. If the admin feels that
      a offering with such a prominent title will hurt the buyer,
      the offer shouldn't have been approved.

      But "WSO of the Day" has been running for
      some time now. Clearly, such an offer must have
      been deemed as acceptable until recently.

      Now, I'm not saying some of the concerns
      expressed here are not valid. Many of them are.

      And I'm sure Mike Lantz acknowledges them.

      What I'm trying to say is that I don't think
      Mike Lantz has the intention to deceive.

      Now, if only the admin (Allen or others) can
      give their clarifications here, it will be much
      clearer for all of us.

      Jag
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Sorry, but I only see ONE person that is doing any actually attacking.

    Am I the only one?

    You don't need to make it so personal and angry.

    ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Sorry, but I only see ONE person that is doing any actually attacking.

      Am I the only one?

      You don't need to make it so personal and angry.

      ~Michael
      It's called Rage, Michael.

      KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author dseisner
    I'm pretty new to this forum compared to many on this thread but I'd though I'd weigh in on some of the issues.

    First, I'd like to say that WSO Pro is a very valuable service. It makes selling and delivering a product MUCH easier. It is well worth the price.

    WSO Pro does not determine or effect prices at all. You always choose the price and any JVs are by opt-in only.

    Did a lot of people here really think "WSO of the day" was endorsed by Allen?? As busy as the guy is, it's hard to believe that he would or look at one product per day to make sure it "worked" or "wasn't a scam." I personally always looked at it as a special price reduction in exchange for exposure. I do think "WP Deal of the day" is a more appropriate title though, to avoid confusion.

    Why are people getting so upset about the price temporarily dropping for a day? Have you never seen a sale go on? JC Penny runs them all the time. Somebody else mentioned a declining price scale and said that was laughable. Why is that so laughable? It happens ALL THE TIME in business. When a product becomes less popular or is selling fewer units, the obvious choice is to drop the price down. How many gurus do you know that are selling their $1000 products for $1 or $0 to gain customers they wouldn't have had before? Too many to list. The way I understand the rule is that the price you're offering has to be better than what you're offering outside the forum. If you're "retail price" is $50 and you move the price on the from from $10 to $40 back to $5 back to $15, how is that breaking the rules? And aren't people running Christmas specials and what not all the time? It may not be smart, but all of those prices are lower than retail price. If you want, take your WSO to the next level and offer an Orbitz-like price guarantee. But what's the sense in that? My point is, prices change all the time, in the WF and everywhere else. Only a small amount of the buyers will get the absolute best price. If the product is valuable at each price level that it's set at, then most buyers should not have an issue.

    I don't wait for a product to get WSO of the day before I buy. Most don't ever offer that sale. Plus, it could be a month or two down the line. If I'm interested, I buy. That's just me.

    One thing I do agree with Big Mike about is that I don't understand why Mike Lantz is allowed to bulk PM people. I think the rule should be the same across the board, he should be required to use email.

    I can only look at the exposure of WP deal of the day as a good thing for my business. I'm still hoping to be selected for it in the future, as of right now.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      Originally Posted by dseisner View Post

      Why are people getting so upset about the price temporarily dropping for a day?
      Because the entire point if the WSO is the offer the rock bottom lowest price you will ever give. If you drop your price below what the normal WSO offers then you are in effect breaking the rules of the WSO section.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

        Because the entire point if the WSO is the offer the rock bottom lowest price you will ever give. If you drop your price below what the normal WSO offers then you are in effect breaking the rules of the WSO section.
        Come on, Johnny, really? Where does it say you have to be offering the "lowest price you will ever give"? That is simply not true to what the WSO forum rules are, or even the intent really. You may believe that, and you may do it that way, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it is no way a rule or requirement.

        But, the thing that you and a few others seem to be missing here is that the "Deal of the Day" IS a WSO. In fact it is the same WSO, just on sale for a very limited time, and often in a limited quantity. Can you really "undercut" your own WSO with itself? Doesn't that sound a little crazy?

        Changing the price of your WSO based on certain factors is certainly not discouraged, and is really just smart business. Raising/lowering prices is a common business practice to help businesses get the best returns, while continuing to serve their customers.

        Businesses lower their prices all of the time to get in places like Amazon and Wal-mart to sell them - and they give a percentage of their sales to those marketplaces. This is really no different. In this case, it is just a one day sale.

        Lets not get too crazy here...

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

          Come on, Johnny, really? Where does it say you have to be offering the "lowest price you will ever give"? That is simply not true to what the WSO forum rules are, or even the intent really. You may believe that, and you may do it that way, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it is no way a rule or requirement.
          Mike

          Allen himself has weighed in on this many times and the "official" point on this is that you can offer the "same" price to your personal list but you can not offer a lower price to ANYONE.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
            Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

            Allen himself has weighed in on this many times and the "official" point on this is that you can offer the "same" price to your personal list but you can not offer a lower price to ANYONE.
            Let me understand what you are saying...

            Let's say you as a marketer are selling "report A" on your website for $47. Then, you decide to sell it on the WSO forum for $29 - a healthy discount. So far, so good right?

            Now, lets say maybe its not selling as well as you like, or you want to see if it will sell even better, so you decide to lower the WSO price to $17.

            What I understand from what you are saying is that by doing that you have now broken the WSO rules. Is that right?

            Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Jag82
            Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

            Allen himself has weighed in on this many times and the "official" point on this is that you can offer the "same" price to your personal list but you can not offer a lower price to ANYONE.

            Hi Johnny,

            I've read the WSO rule about pricing,
            and double-read it.

            And I'm still not convinced the implied meaning
            is that the offer has to be absolutely at
            its lowest price.

            However you mentioned that Allen
            has weighed in on this many times.

            To be honest, I'm not aware of it.

            If you can help support this statement
            by showing me quotes of his that allude
            to this, I'll be most appreciative.

            If you can do so, I will accept that my
            interpretation of the ruling is wrong.

            And if it is proven so, then perhaps the admin
            may want to consider changing the wording a little
            to be more specific and clear.

            In that way, it will avoid confusion among sellers.

            Best,
            Jag
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              ** DISCLAIMER ** What follows is only MY interpretation of the rules and
              not to be mistaken for fact. To clarify this, go to the boss.

              The only thing in the WSO rules that state anything about price is that
              the WSO price has to be lower than the price the general public gets.

              Now, it has been clarified that your list is exempt from this rule. You can
              give them the same deal as the WSO section.

              Okay, so in theory, if I have a product that sells for $47, if I sell it here for
              $46.99 that is technically lower. Doubt I'd get many sales, but it is still
              technically within the rules.

              However, nothing is said in the WSO rules that a product cannot be offered
              at one price and then, that price not be changed.

              We already have tiered pricing built into some WSOs where the price may
              start as low as $7 and go as high as $47 or higher...and these WSOs are
              allowed to go through. So there is obviously no rule against this since
              this is allowed to happen, though some here would prefer that this
              practice was not allowed. Not up to us. It's the bosses call.

              Conversely, there is nothing in the rules that says you can't start a WSO
              off at one price and lower it. As long as it's still less than the price offered
              to the general public, it is still within the rules as I understand them.

              Having said that. I personally think that doing this is going to piss the hell
              off of a lot of your earlier customers. I know I wouldn't do it...at least not
              right away.

              If I have a $47 product and offer it here for $27. If I find it doesn't sell, I
              will wait at least a month before I make a brand new WSO and offer it
              for less. I see nothing wrong with that. Will I still piss some people off who
              bought a month earlier? Probably. But not as many as I'll piss off if on Jan
              1 they buy it for $27 and on Jan 2 they see it for $17.

              That's REALLY going to piss people off.

              But piss them off or not, and as much as I don't personally want to see
              that happen, the rules don't make any provisions against this.

              That's the bottom line folks, whether you like the practice or not.

              Until an official word comes down that says, "You can't raise or lower
              your WSO price AFTER the WSO is posted" this practice can continue if
              a WSO poster chooses to do so.

              One other thing that some people seem to be confused about.

              Just because a WSO is running does NOT mean it is endorsed by this
              forum. It is nothing more than a paid advertisement, just as it would be
              if you saw an ad in a magazine or classified section.

              In other words, do your due diligence before buying because just seeing
              an offer up there means nothing.

              Do not confuse "ad approved" with "ad endorsed"

              They are NOT the same thing.

              Again, this is JUST MY OPINION and not to be taken as fact.

              If you want the actual facts on how the WSO forum is run and what is
              and not allowed, you need to go to the source.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                5) You get additional credibility from the Deal of the Day.
                Razer, if you look through this thread, this is the main beef that people have with this. Sure, some don't think the price thing is fair but most have not been happy with this one point that you just confirmed.

                I have to admit, I was under the impression that those WSOs chosen for the deal of the day were vetted. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who thought so (just re-read the thread).

                The people posting in here that don't like the deal of the day set up aren't dropping in out of the blue. I've seen several voice similar objections in the past. These opinions are just as valid as those who are supporting the deal of the day con