Straight from Griz's Mouth !! This will make some of you Uncomfortable here..lol

81 replies
Yeah, his Blogspot has been in the Top 5 for the Keyphrase "Make money Online' for over three years now. So much for the people who doubt the SEO power of free hosting !!

Griz Quotes,

"The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period. That's the business model.
Having said that true "Internet Marketers" use list marketing and blogs/websites to sell a wide variety of real quality products to people who actually want the product. No hype, no scams. No Refunds needed. Happy customers to boot. They aren't selling to bloggers. They are marketing product to targeted audiences across the whole web. "

Link - How to Make Money Online for Beginners




I bet alot of you guys here can relate to this ????? LOL
I say Warrior needs to develop a Section in the Forum solely for peeps who Sell stuff to regular people looking for regular Products to satisfy a regular Need like Soap or jock itch !! Separate it from the Section where people are Selling stuff to other Bloggers and Webmasters and other get rich dreamers !!
#grizze #herelol #make #mouth #straight #uncomfortable
  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    I must admit I am a little lost!
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    • Profile picture of the author utproducts
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        My bad I got the Link in now !!
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        Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by qkz283 View Post

        Don't disagree with some of what he has to say but then's promoting Project Payday on his site which is total junk...
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Yeah Simon I agree. I promote free CPA Survey Sites at one of my blogs.
          And Project Payday is one that I cannot ethically promote and sleep well at night !!
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          Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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        • Profile picture of the author utproducts
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          • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
            Originally Posted by qkz283 View Post

            True. Project Payday is complete junk. However, Griz worked (and works) hard to get his blog ranked high in the serps. He needs to make money somehow.
            There's a ton of quality products he could promote from a nicely ranked Work At Home page, never any excuse for sending people to utter crap if you're also trying to be all holier than thou about other marketers.

            Totally hypocritical to be calling out gurus, who at least promote half decent products whereas he's promoting total crap.

            To say the choice is crap or Adsense is crazy, there's an entire world of good IM products out there, many based at newbies which would be an option.
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            • Profile picture of the author utproducts
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              • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
                Originally Posted by qkz283 View Post

                That's why he's not hypocritical,
                It can be spun anyway you want but condemm scams and crap from gurus whilist selling scams and crap is hypocritical in the first order, just because he only sells scams and crap to some people, not all, doesn't make him not a hypocrit.
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  I really have learned from Griz alot and owe him alot. But I do agree that this hypocrisy has always kind of rubbed me wrong.

                  Like you say the fact of the matter is there is NO getting around it. Acting like crappy is acting crappy. No and, ifs, or buts about !!
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          • Profile picture of the author scrofford
            Originally Posted by qkz283 View Post

            True. Project Payday is complete junk. However, Griz worked (and works) hard to get his blog ranked high in the serps. He needs to make money somehow.

            Sadly, it is either promoting crappy offers through affiliate programs or use Adsense. And Griz's blog has become useless for Adsense with the loyal readership he has developed over the years.

            If you read his actual posts and comments, he doesn't sell anything. He really wants to help. He doesn't try to make money off of those willing to read and learn.

            With that said, he does claim that Project Payday can make you thousands of dollars per month. Honestly, I don't think that's really true. He probably knows this, and probably doesn't enjoy promoting something that isn't that great.

            He will even tell you himself that you don't need to buy anything, simply read his posts for a free education. The ads all over his ugly blog are simply for the search engine traffic passing through.

            Hands down, Griz and a few others provide the best information (for free) on making money online. If you are struggling, I suggest that you start reading.

            EDIT - Just to clarify, I don't mean to imply that SimonHarrison is a struggling marketer. This post is addressed to anyone that happens to read it.
            You contradict yourself. I am glad you believe in this guy, but if he is promoting junk (project payday) and says you can make money from it and everyone else says it's junk...who is right? He MUST want to promote it if it is on his site. Nobody is holding a gun to his head and forcing him to place the link there.

            Now just from hearing that product is junk and this guy is promoting it, why would I ever want to follow his blog? See my point? In reality I know Griz gives some good info, but why promote crap? Doesn't do to well for his reputation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Yeah, his Blogspot has been in the Top 5 for the Keyphrase "Make money Online' for over three years now. So much for the people who doubt the SEO power of free hosting !!

    Griz Quotes,

    "The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period. That's the business model.

    I bet alot of you guys here can relate to this ??
    I think there's a huge amount of proof in the initial statement yes.

    The vast majority , even of so called trusted gurus, slam out e-mails for products that they have never used to actually generate a ROI. Half the stuff, half the gurus send out, I'm willing to wager they have done no more than give a cursory scan over to check it's not utter garbage.

    The problem is with so many IM products is that on paper they are ok, they can be nicely delivered, nicely packaged up, nicely presented, hell they even sound like they should make money, but there's absolutely no guarantee they will.

    Because what they carefully omit from the sales speel, is that the guy who made $15k a month from the what they are teaching, didn't make it by just following abc from their guide.

    They did it by a never ending, 18 hour days of painstaking, tweaking, testing and analysing of their data, and this part of the equation is almost always overlooked by people in IM and never, ever covered in enough detail in the products sold.

    Mainly I suspect in order to keep people from thinking if they have to do all this testing and tracking the product can't be the miracle they were hoping for.

    Some guru gets a call from another friend who scratched their back recently., says hey "got a great product buddy, $1k in your pocket for each one sold and $250 pm on the backend, quick $50k for you at least if you put it out to your list".

    Guru takes a look at it, sees it's nicely put together, sees there's no real backlash from it and says, what the hell, pays for the new mercedes and bang out the door it goes.

    The initial statement is very true, money is made from selling people products, not using them.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Don't disagree with some of what he has to say but then's promoting Project Payday on his site which is total junk...
    While I don't remember if this was the product he was referring too.. he did state in one of his blog posts that the majority of his readers aren't interested in learning anything... they are looking for a get rich quick on the internet solution, and so he supplied what many of his visitors are looking for... and the crap sells. Those of us who do want to learn something actually read his posts and try to come away from it with a nugget of knowledge.

    And he absolutely correct.

    Most people, especially around these parts, aren't making any money with the products they are promoting... they are making money by selling that product to n00bs who don't know any better and are naive enough to think a $10 WSO is going to make them rich.

    How many people here have "make a thousand dollars a week" junk in their signature and are complaining that they aren't getting any traffic, can't rank their site and aren't making any sales...the clueless selling crap to the ignorant.

    and that is my opinion
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    It can be spun anyway you want but condemm scams and crap from gurus whilist selling scams and crap is hypocritical in the first order, just because he only sells scams and crap to some people, not all, doesn't make him not a hypocrit.
    Is a product is crap... that is subjective, I think most of the stuff promoted here is crap but I'm sure the authors don't feel the same way.

    The truth is, you can learn more from reading that blog then you'll ever get from most of the ebooks being sold by the 'gurus' that have zombie like loyal followings of people making no money.

    He calls it like he sees it and most people get a poopy face when you call out their idols as frauds and scammers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      While there is a lot of what Griz says going on, he's also generalizing, which
      is unfair and wrong.

      I can name a ton of MMO products that actually make money because they
      teach you how to sell to people who are looking for solutions to jock itch
      and whatever.

      Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        While there is a lot of what Griz says going on, he's also generalizing, which
        is unfair and wrong.

        I can name a ton of MMO products that actually make money because they
        teach you how to sell to people who are looking for solutions to jock itch
        and whatever.

        Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.

        This is so True and I think people need to be careful about generalizing. The fact that Griz says he NEVER has met anyone who has made any money buying anything from these Guru List builders is just plain ignorance. And I dont mean that in a derogatory sense but in a sense that just because you have not met someone who has done it, does not mean its not happening !!
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      • Profile picture of the author reapr
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        While there is a lot of what Griz says going on, he's also generalizing, which
        is unfair and wrong.

        I can name a ton of MMO products that actually make money because they
        teach you how to sell to people who are looking for solutions to jock itch
        and whatever.

        Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.
        Steven I will agree with this.



        Here is my take on make money online products.

        There are several scenarios even with a good product. Person A buys a product uses it as a road map to success and is happy with returns. Person B does same thing and sees little or no return. Give both these people different products and B may do good and A may not see any returns. These types of people either way buy little in the way of products because they are actually implementing and testing them. Mind you both these people likely did some research to see if anyone was having any success.

        Then there is person C. This person is buying the latest greatest ticket to riches ... they rarely implement anything. The guide is more like a fictional work something to dream about it may get read and serves its purpose to person C.

        Person C is what fuels the creation of garbage products in my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period.


    Amen to that.
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

      The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period.


      Amen to that.
      Amen? Seen your sig lately?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        I don't see what he's doing as any different from most others...he's as self-serving as anyone else, and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way, it just is what it is.
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      • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        Amen? Seen your sig lately?
        hu? It is a fact that many guru's make their money selling "MAKE MONEY PRODUCTS"...and probably don't even bother using their own methods. Simply because they dont need to.

        RANDOM EXAMPLE:

        Let's pick a random marketer, say Brad Callen.

        Do you think that Brad makes most money BY USING KEYWORD ELITE...or by SELLING and marketing Keyword Elite?

        (Not here to say that this is one of those crap examples, i simply picked Brad because everyone knows his products)

        And..what has it to do with my sig? If 80% of so called Gurus make money selling "THE METHOD"..this still doesn't mean that same principle needs to apply to you or me?

        I can at least back up my stuff....but with some other marketers i highly DOUBT this. Simply look at some random clickbank "earnings proof shots"...and you would be surprised how many of those earnings are actually from the marketer SELLING HIS PRODUCT - and not from using his own system! (As suggested on the sales page )
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        • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
          Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

          hu? It is a fact that many guru's make their money selling "MAKE MONEY PRODUCTS"...and probably don't even bother using their own methods. Simply because they dont need to.
          You are applauding what that guy said but you do what he is talking against.

          That's a bit....
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  • Profile picture of the author Trent Brownrigg
    I am not going to get into a debate over how people make their money. Do what you want if it works for you and it's legal. There are plenty of ways to make money online and yeah some of them are much better than others, but that is subjective. What one person sees as crap another thinks is gold.

    I will say this though...

    Griz knows his stuff. I've learned more from him in the past couple years (all for free) than I have everywhere else combined in the entire 7 years that I have been doing business online. No doubt about it.

    He is a master a making money online and he is more than willing to teach it all for free. No membership sites or any other paid product/service of any kind. Yes, he has affiliate links on his blog, the man has to make his money somehow, but he doesn't make anyone pay for the incredibly useful information he teaches. I recommend him to everyone!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ash R
    I've been hearing about Griz a lot lately, and I'll admit I'm one of those late comers who hasn't visited his site yet.

    However, I agree that most product from gurus are overhyped. Some people remind me of John Chow's blog tagline: "I make money online by telling people how to make money online".
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    Don't sweat the small stuff :)
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Simon,

      Totally hypocritical to be calling out gurus, who at least promote half decent products whereas he's promoting total crap.

      To say the choice is crap or Adsense is crazy, there's an entire world of good IM products out there, many based at newbies which would be an option.
      I don't do much forum posting nowadays, but I do lurk a little. I thought I'd drop in and explain something to you, or anyone else who's reading - because if I can encourage anyone to spend a little more time studying Griz's stuff, then that's a good thing.

      To understand Griz and that blog, you have to read it a little. You need to read a few of the older posts, pay attention to what's there and perhaps read the comments too (yes, I know it's a long read) and read PAST the comments.

      I've been reading and learning from his stuff for quite a while, and I have the same principles, and similar attitude to online business. (Also, I spent quite a while posting here regularly, often exposed myths (and took flak for it) always told the truth and never had something for sale in my sig, WSO forum etc).

      You can all decide to avoid Griz if you like, based on your conclusion that he's a hypocrite. But I urge any newbies who pass by here not to. He's not a hypocrite and he offers some of the most useful information for free that I've seen in my years working and researching online - but you have to do a lot of reading to find the good stuff - it's hidden beneath keyword-laden search engine fodder. He teaches methods that work, methods that are the opposite of a lot of what is taught here and places like this. He also exposes some of the biggest myths and dead-ends that you will encounter.

      You may have to read past the comments to notice he's promoting project payday or you may have seen it in the sidebar. If you did read PAST the comments you would have seen this -

      I have included Project Payday on my blog for all of my readers who write in asking if there are any legit online programs that they can use to make some quick money. Project Payday is not a get rich quick scheme - it is more like a work at home job.
      [snip]
      But seriously folks...

      If you have made it this far down the page then I assume you might just be serious about learning how to make a real sustainable living online - as opposed to the thousands of visitors I see daily looking for that "get rich quick" miracle that really doesn't happen without a winning lottery ticket.

      (continues to promote a trial of one product - 'keyword crash course')
      Or read this (the 'affiliate marketing' post at the top) -

      How to Make Money Online for Beginners: January 2009

      or the 'about this blog' link in the sidebar -

      How to Make Money Online for Beginners: About This Blog

      I ask you, are those the words of a hypocrite?

      If you take the time to read and understand what the site is actually about, pretty soon you'll realise that it was an experiment. In order to prove that the methods that the 'social bloggers' and 'MMO list marketers' were selling were not bringing the results that they claimed to 'the masses' who bought them, he wanted to show them what could be achieved instead in the SERPS with a free blog, simply using keyword targetted articles and heavy backlinking through a self built network.

      He made it quite clear on multiple occasions that the idea wasn't for people to copy that idea in the MMO niche (although many did anyway), but to take the blueprint and use it for affiliate ads, adsense and eventually paid ads outside of the MMO niche, for physical products. He just wanted to show that he could dominate the 'make money online' phrases in the SERPS, using his simple methods, to prove a point. Then he decided to monetise the crazy traffic he was getting.

      The experiment resulted in him having two kinds of readers, and he made posts and comments explaining this to the one group who bothered to read all the way down to the comments. He told them NOT to follow his recommendations made in the posts.

      He explained that he was continually experimenting with the ads to get the maximum ROI and that this was the main function of the site - to make money - because the quantity of search traffic was staggering, yet they never bothered to read and learn and just wanted to click ads looking for 'get rich quick' schemes. He gives them what they want - if he doesn't, they will go back to the SERPS and get it from someone else.

      Secondary to this (accidentally), he had built up a loyal group of followers (social traffic) who wanted to learn from him. So he told them that instead of clicking on his ads, they should observe his experiments, and read the results from them that he regularly shared with those who bothered to read all of the way down.

      He clearly explained (time and again) that the ads and posts often weren't for them, but were simply experiments to maximise ROI and that the posts were long-winded diatribes purely to allow for keyword inclusion/experimentation.

      He explained that there were some gems in some of the posts, but his readers who wanted to learn had to recognise the difference between a keyword stuffed experiment from an educational lesson. He pointed out that reading the comments would assist with this.

      If that's hypocrisy, then I'm Elvis.

      I have no dog in this fight, but it saddens me to see people here taking a cursory glance and writing the guy off as a hypocrite.

      There are a lot of newer people here who are keen to find some truths and who have been conditioned to think that nothing good comes free, therefore they won't find ANY decent info on a free website/blog.

      That's a good cynicism to have, because you really have to look hard to find it, and not much that's worth having in life is free (there is always a price to pay), but they could do a lot worse than going back through the archives of Griz's blogs, observing how links from places like this temporarily damaged his adsense income, observing how he dropped adsense eventually and uses ads instead - and a lot more.

      To say the choice is crap or Adsense is crazy
      He didn't say that, except for explaining what he does on his original experimental MMO blog - but the explanation is not 'crap or adsense', it's 'test and tweak to get the best ROI from the SERPS traffic.'

      Steven,

      Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.
      That depends. It depends on if you'd tell a newbie that he is better of building a list to sell MMO products, or that he's better off learning to master backlinking and the SERPS in order to get long term passive income from SERPS traffic to their advertising network - one that sells real products that millions of people buy every day in the offline world - a system that can be applied to the majority of niches AND can be utilised to provide services for REAL offline businesses that want an online presence, or want to promote their existing sites.

      If you tell them they're going to be better off doing the former rather than the latter, then for the majority - you're doing them a dis-service - you're another Darren Rowse - YOU'RE dangerous.

      Not so long back, it was a much better idea, which is why some of the older marketing material is legit. But as time has passed, the niche has become saturated, Google has declared all out war on the crap in the SERPS and the majority who try and become a star 'blogger' or IM guru will fail spectactularly in the MMO niche AND they will be misleading others even IF some of the products they promote have worked for them.

      Add to this that the majority of newer MMO sellers are all smoke and mirrors, mainly newbies throwing up sites as quickly as they can - we see it here every day - clueless people desperate for chump change and a clue, but with a sig file proclaiming how to make millions - it's utterly ridiculous and contemptible - often they're black hatters, simply regurgitating and ripping off other peoples' stuff.

      You may not like that fact and may feel that it's unfair on the small minority - but that's just the way it is - it's what the MAJORITY are doing - and it's also why some of us avoid this niche. No matter how much integrity you have, if you position yourself in this market which is absolutely awash with fakers, you will get tarred with the same brush - just like Griz has, here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        You may not like that fact and may feel that it's unfair on the small minority - but that's just the way it is - it's what the MAJORITY are doing - and it's also why some of us avoid this niche. No matter how much integrity you have, if you position yourself in this market which is absolutely awash with fakers, you will get tarred with the same brush - just like Griz has, here.
        So in other words, I'm guilty by association?

        Roger, you have to know how wrong that is.

        Or does that not matter?
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        • Profile picture of the author derrickp
          No Steven, I wouldn't say so. I am on your list and you provide solid content and from what I can tell you actually do what you teach to promote your MMO related stuff as well as niches.

          I also think you care about your list members and seriously want to help them out.


          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          So in other words, I'm guilty by association?

          Roger, you have to know how wrong that is.

          Or does that not matter?
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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Simon,



        To understand Griz and that blog, you have to read it a little.
        You can all decide to avoid Griz if you like,
        Bit up to my neck to read through a war and peace on that level mate, but I didn't say anything about avoiding anything, I've read some of his stuff on/off for some time and it's perfectly reasonable and on point at times, I often like what he has to say.

        That said, and however you like to spin it, he is a hypocrite he is promoting utter ****e on his site, that's FACT , unavoidable fact, it's crapp, and at the same time he's blasting folks for basically doing similar, that's his perogative, doesn't make it not hypocrisy, which is my only point.

        Does him being a hypocrite stop me from reading his stuff and indeed many others who fall into the same catagory, not really.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Simon,
        I don't do much forum posting nowadays, but I do lurk a little.
        :SIDEBAR:

        Roger, the WF is a better place when you post rather than lurk.

        :SIDEBAR:
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Wow, I really stirred up the Pot here with starting this Thread !!

          I guess it must hit home for a lot of people. Maybe some guilty consciouses out there ??

          Anyway, my views on Griz :
          He has been the single most influential person in my Success in IM. He is a genius IMHO.
          I started following him 2 years ago when I first entered IM. I have read thru his Blog at least three times now. And there is some really incredible stuff in there. Its a MUST read for anyone in IM, new or experienced.

          I agree with Roger in that Griz is not a hypocrite and he really goes out of his way to help others. You cant really debate that.

          But every once and awhile I have disagreed with Griz and have called him out on it at his Blog.

          For one, I guess the thing with promoting a few junk programs here and there has rubbed me wrong a little bit. And sure he has warned his loyal readers that they are junk. But is this really right for the poor guy who ended up at his Blog there thru Google SE and is new to all this looking to make extra money at home ??? Is it ethical to make money off him just because he is a stranger and not the regular loyal reader ??

          Also, I will have to say Griz's disdain for building a list is just plain leaving big money on the table in my opinion. And I am talking about list building with non IM funnels. Like I said ignorance can stymie big time Success. And I mean that with all due respect to Griz.

          Finally, I think Griz's major, major folly that many never point out is he NEVER went and bought his own Domain. Consequently, Griz DOES NOT technically own the 1,500 daily unique Visitors he gets to his Blog.
          He is at the Mercy of Google.

          This kind of reminds me of how I rented an Apartment for 9 years when I was in my twenties. I never owned it and had no control over it and could not capitalize off any capital gains from it. I kick myself now in looking back at all those wasted months off throwing rent Money out the door.

          I just hope Griz does not regret in some way, shape, or form by 'renting/ borrowing' his Domain.

          If you learn anything from this thread especially you Newbies out there I hope that you see how important it is to OWN your own Online Real Estate !! For gosh sakes dont borrow it.


          Anyway, like I said Griz is the people's people and I have tremendous respect for what he has done and continues to do !! A few gripes here and there I must admit , but on the whole to me Griz is a true role model for IMers !! And I know he has good Karma coming his way for how many Lives
          he has changed for the better
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          Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Simon,

        He's not a hypocrite .
        It doesn't matter if he is also handing our pearls of wisdom , if he plays the moral high ground game as he did in THAT specific article, and condems marketers for peddling junk whilist peddling junk, that' hypocrisy.

        It's that simple, mitagating circumstances in the form of the fact that his blog in general is very good ( and it is pretty good) doesnt' detract from the fact he's being a hypocrit. Yes I can see he's playing to two crowds there, and if he want's to treat the quick fix newbies like low grade, sell em crap traffic, that's up to him, he can do as he pleases as far as I'm concerned, I'm not on a witch hunt, I just look at the facts as they relate to this specific article he wrote and the facts are plain as day.

        It also needs clarrifying that just because he's a hypocrit over this specific issue, doesn't make him a fully fledged card carrying member of the lifers hyocrit club. It just means that as it relates to this specific situation being discussed , he is being hypocritical.

        and he offers some of the most useful information for free that I've seen in my years working and researching online
        Yep, agreed on that, spent some time digging around his popular posts, a lot of newbies could do worse than spend some time on that blog.

        But again , it doesn't detract from the first point, him having good information and him also being a hypocrite are not mutually exclusive.

        I notice amusingly he's now linked to this thread from his forum, enlisting support from his fans. Seemed rather transparent although, no doubt there will be some reasoning behind as well.

        Or read this (the 'affiliate marketing' post at the top) -

        How to Make Money Online for Beginners: January 2009
        Again, just because he has good content, doesn't excuse promoting crap , the argument seems to be that because people are lazy and desperate and looking for a quick fix, he can feed them crap because they didn't dig deep enough to find his good stuff.

        And you know what, that's his perogative , and it doesn't make the guy evil incarnate or indeed any different from a million other marketers but he is still a hypocrite to condem "X" for peddling crap, whilist peddlign crap, you can't escape that fact, however it's spun.



        I ask you, are those the words of a hypocrite?
        It's a fail argument m8. It doesn't detract from the basic point at hand, providing good information at the same time as bad, doesnt' mean bad doesnt' exist.

        Then he decided to monetise the crazy traffic he was getting.
        And that's fine, but again, and he could give away free money on his site and save starving children in Haiti, but he would still be a hypocrite as it relates to this specific set of circumstances.

        I'm not even condemming the guy, he's free to do whatever the hell he wants, he's not ripping anybody off or commiting a crime, but

        He gives them what they want - if he doesn't, they will go back to the SERPS and get it from someone else.
        Again, fair enough, his perogative, doesn't make him not a hypocrit when he condems person A of peddling low grade trash and then he peddles some low grade trash.

        If that's hypocrisy, then I'm Elvis.
        Sing us a song .

        writing the guy off as a hypocrite.
        Not writing him off at all. He has some extremely solid , quality content on there. He's still a hypocrite in this specific set of circumstances.

        tarred with the same brush - just like Griz has, here.
        Don't think he's been tarred badly really at all, he's a hypocrit as it relates to this comments he made in his recent post and he's a damm effective marketer with a well ranked site, and a ton of good and useful information on his site, some of which I've seen people charge for and it's been of less use.

        He's still a hypocrit and I don't even , at least partially disagree with the article in question.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Simon,

          Sing us a song
          We're caught in a trap...I can't walk out...

          Yeh I see your point, you're right.

          I popped over there for a read today, and saw the 'Griz gets slagged' link. And I read the comments - some of them are kind of odd - like slagging this place off with generalisations, then getting all sheepish about 'following Griz.' It's like the internet is just a ton of groups of sheeple, all jeering at different groups, saying - 'look over there at those sheeple!'

          I find it tiring to be honest, all of this 'us and them' stuff - I'm a bit long in the tooth for taking sides. I get the same feeling from most of the user generated content I see around the internet - it's mainly just depressing, tiring and pointless. Everyone seems to be trying to score points in some meaningless, nameless, virtual game.

          It's like if you were employing someone to moderate a forum or the comments section on a site, you'd be asking them to step into hell and have to witness the extremes of anonymous human behaviour on a regular basis. But I suppose that's no different than paying someone to work in customer services, then treating the customers like dirt and putting them through recorded phone message 'choose from these options' hell before they eventually arrive, 20 minutes later, with a customer services rep who has to tell them that they need to dial a different number -

          'Those who are offended by colourful language need not apply.'

          After lurking for a while, I thought I'd try posting here and seeing what happened. I guess I just wanted to put across that out of the thousands of people claiming to offer useful information, Griz is someone who gives a hell of a lot - for free. And I thought it was doing information seekers a dis-service to put them off his site by just emphasizing that people felt that in one post he's coming across as a hypocrite.

          But by doing so, I end up presenting a 'fail argument'.

          No problem, I see your point, and you're only 'saying it as you see it' which is something I can't criticise, otherwise I would be the hypocrite.

          But to be frank, I just can't be arsed anymore having these endless debates about trivia. The novelty has well and truly worn off. So I think I'll slip quietly back under the radar into peaceful obscurity again, for a little while. It's nice under there...

          ExRat has left the building...
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          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Simon,

            We're caught in a trap...I can't walk out...

            Yeh I see your point, you're right.

            I popped over there for a read today, and saw the 'Griz gets slagged' link. And I read the comments - some of them are kind of odd - like slagging this place off with generalisations, then getting all sheepish about 'following Griz.' It's like the internet is just a ton of groups of sheeple, all jeering at different groups, saying - 'look over there at those sheeple!'

            I find it tiring to be honest, all of this 'us and them' stuff - I'm a bit long in the tooth for taking sides. I get the same feeling from most of the user generated content I see around the internet - it's mainly just depressing, tiring and pointless. Everyone seems to be trying to score points in some meaningless, nameless, virtual game.

            It's like if you were employing someone to moderate a forum or the comments section on a site, you'd be asking them to step into hell and have to witness the extremes of anonymous human behaviour on a regular basis. But I suppose that's no different than paying someone to work in customer services, then treating the customers like dirt and putting them through recorded phone message 'choose from these options' hell before they eventually arrive, 20 minutes later, with a customer services rep who has to tell them that they need to dial a different number -


            ExRat has left the building...
            Yeah I have to admit I also find it cumbersome. I think Griz and his Blog are two valuable assets to the IM community. Like I said he has been the most influential person in my IM career.

            That being said when ever I go over there and look at the Comments its almost like the Griz Cult. Really, it makes me sick. I guess as most people here know I dont pledge allegiance to anyone as far as being part of the good ole boys. Whether it be here , at Griz's blog or anywhere.

            Its like some of these followers cant think for themselves and fill like its blaspemy to even question Griz. And they take jabs at other places like the Warrior Forum.

            Personally, I utilize both Griz's Blog and Warrior Forum as two great online asset for learning about IM and what to do and not do !!

            Iam not so narrow minded as to write off the Warrior Forum just to a part of the cynical herd !!
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            • Profile picture of the author traceye
              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

              That being said when ever I go over there and look at the Comments its almost like the Griz Cult. Really, it makes me sick.
              As a member of the Griz Cult, although we like to refer to ourselves as the Bear Religion Of Google SEO (or BROGS), I'd like to say that we are just normal people trying to make our living online like everyone else.

              Most of our days are spent gathering backlinks in the vegetable garden and baking new websites on the stove.

              Other times we also like to sing songs around the campfire and pledge our allegiance to adsense and affiliate marketing.

              On special occassions we all get together for a big community meeting where we all link to each other and see how far we can climb Google's big ladder of love.

              Ahh good times.

              Anyway, I must go, I think the blog farm bell is ringing so must toodle.

              Peace out.
              Tracey :rolleyes:
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              • Profile picture of the author Love2Blog
                Originally Posted by traceye View Post

                As a member of the Griz Cult, although we like to refer to ourselves as the Bear Religion Of Google SEO (or BROGS), I'd like to say that we are just normal people trying to make our living online like everyone else.

                Most of our days are spent gathering backlinks in the vegetable garden and baking new websites on the stove.

                Other times we also like to sing songs around the campfire and pledge our allegiance to adsense and affiliate marketing.

                On special occassions we all get together for a big community meeting where we all link to each other and see how far we can climb Google's big ladder of love.

                Ahh good times.

                Anyway, I must go, I think the blog farm bell is ringing so must toodle.

                Peace out.
                Tracey :rolleyes:
                Ahhh, Tracey, you're giving away all our Cult secrets...be careful or too many will want to join and we might not have enough Kool Aid.

                But, I think it's safe to mention that Kumbayah will be on #1 on our playlist for the next campfire session,
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Funny you try to use a little sarcasm and irony in your Posts but in reality many in here including myself have been loyal followers of Griz and his Blog for many years now. And if you have read thru this complete Thread you would have known that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

              Yeah I have to admit I also find it cumbersome. I think Griz and his Blog are two valuable assets to the IM community. Like I said he has been the most influential person in my IM career.

              That being said when ever I go over there and look at the Comments its almost like the Griz Cult. Really, it makes me sick. I guess as most people here know I dont pledge allegiance to anyone as far as being part of the good ole boys. Whether it be here , at Griz's blog or anywhere.

              Its like some of these followers cant think for themselves and fill like its blaspemy to even question Griz. And they take jabs at other places like the Warrior Forum.

              Personally, I utilize both Griz's Blog and Warrior Forum as two great online asset for learning about IM and what to do and not do !!

              Iam not so narrow minded as to write off the Warrior Forum just to a part of the cynical herd !!
              That's a very healthy attitude to have. Be discerning, and cherry pick from different sources.

              Everybody has weaknesses and inconsistencies and you cannot blindly defend everything a person does, personal hero or not.

              The cults that grow up around certain marketers can be offputting, even frightening. Recently, there was one major IMer who was slightly criticised on a WF thread and all his acolytes jumped in spewing hatred at the non-believers.

              Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            But to be frank, I just can't be arsed anymore having these endless debates about trivia. The novelty has well and truly worn off. So I think I'll slip quietly back under the radar into peaceful obscurity again, for a little while. It's nice under there...

            ExRat has left the building...
            Nicely put, took the words out of my mouth , less forum chit chat more work.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Griz is just being sensational....

    It works really well for him, it has done over a long period of time.

    What I don't like about his method, is the fact that this kind of "journalism blogging" (reporting on an industry in a journalist type fashion), is often the very same kind of blogging that perpetuates myths and lies within our industry.

    Whilst he does a great job of dispelling myth and BS, he also adds fuel to the very fire in this niche.

    I removed myself from promotion in this niche, so that I could report/discuss it objectively... some bloggers have too much vested in this niche to be objective about it.

    This kind of blogging gets lots of attention, even if it lacks substance, I'm not saying his blogging necessarily does or doesn't BTW.

    He's got plenty of good advice being given out in his content, but like anything else online, it should be taken with a pinch of salt. He's one of the good guys, for sure... but he's still caught in the game

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    You contradict yourself. I am glad you believe in this guy, but if he is promoting junk (project payday) and says you can make money from it and everyone else says it's junk...who is right? He MUST want to promote it if it is on his site. Nobody is holding a gun to his head and forcing him to place the link there.

    Now just from hearing that product is junk and this guy is promoting it, why would I ever want to follow his blog? See my point? In reality I know Griz gives some good info, but why promote crap? Doesn't do to well for his reputation.
    You should scroll up and read ExRat's post... or better yet, read the actual blog.
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    • Profile picture of the author scrofford
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      You should scroll up and read ExRat's post... or better yet, read the actual blog.
      I did before I posted at first. I am not saying anything about Girz or the original post. I was saying qkz283 was contradicting himself. That's all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    This feels like it comes from the salty droid school of marketing surely? I'm not meaning he actually markets but it achieves the same end?

    He references this thread as well...

    I'm sure it is all working out very well for him, and the posts will be useful for someone, but it all seems a little too tied together for me...

    I'll end with this quote from the site:

    Don't let the stunning graphics and good looks of this blog fool ya'... if you want to know how to make money online... for free... without all the crap... do yourself a favor... get a cup of coffee and do a little reading... Griz
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    ahh... gotcha, my bad. tired eyes (that's my excuse and I'm sticking too it)
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
      Well I have to put in my 2 cents. I am getting a kick out of all of this. The fact is that Griz has everyone hear that is posting bad about him beat. He is by far a better internet marketer than all of us in my opinion and I would love to be in his shoes one day.

      Has anyone tried project payday who calls it junk? I actually tried it awhile back just to see if it works and the truth is that it does actually make you money. I made about 600 bucks before quiting. Yes it sucks that you have to keep track of everything and make sure you cancel anything you signed up for. The reason he promotes it is because you can actually make money.

      He says several times all over his blog how if your here to learn then the ads are not for you and he gives a full detailed overview of the program on his blog as well telling you what it actually is. Its not scam its just not going to be worth your while if your wanting to get into internet marketing.

      As for the product creation I have tried to do some of that myself. The fact is that 98 percent of what is being sold here is garbage in my opinion. Most of the WSO's I have bought lately have just gotten worse and are just rewrites of other WSO's etc. And the rate that they fly through now makes it really not worth while since you have to pay 20 bucks for about 100 views. But there is still some good stuff being produced just not like it used to be.

      If you are a complete newbie however and just finding about internet marketing today, then Griz's blog would be the better route to take. Rather than the person who is looking to probably pay off some extra debt, buying a WSO which leads them to buy another because none are fully complete. That leads them to being in even more debt. Anyway that is my rant I just think people really under value truly good internet marketeers like Griz and he gets talked down upon mainly because people wished they could do what he is doing. Hell I would rather make a passive 9k a month off of one website that I can go two months without posting on rather having to rewrite garbage and try and get a sale.

      So anyone who wants to learn how to make around 50k a month then read Griz's blog and see what kind of lifestyle he lives. And I believe the bulk of his income is from about 7 sites. Just do what he says and grab a cup off coffee or a beer if you like and read the blog all the way through from the beginning. Its well worth the time and you will gain so much. Oh and make sure to read the comments as well.

      Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author Wa
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Steven,

      So in other words, I'm guilty by association?
      Yep. Not with me, but with the general populace.

      There have been countless threads here about the problems encountered by being in the MMO niche, selling ebooks etc. Some have used the phrases 'used car salesmen' and 'snake oil salesmen' to describe how they feel about IMers and IM 'gurus'.

      The average Joe buys X amount of products - 90% of them might be junk, so he then summizes that all IMers are liars, all IM products are rehashed crap etc and he becomes vocal about it.

      It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the majority.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Steven,



        Yep. Not with me, but with the general populace.

        There have been countless threads here about the problems encountered by being in the MMO niche, selling ebooks etc. Some have used the phrases 'used car salesmen' and 'snake oil salesmen' to describe how they feel about IMers and IM 'gurus'.

        The average Joe buys X amount of products - 90% of them might be junk, so he then summizes that all IMers are liars, all IM products are rehashed crap etc and he becomes vocal about it.

        It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the majority.

        Well, then I guess I can take it as a compliment that I have gotten
        very few emails in 7 years or marketing from people calling me a crook.

        But the facts of what you say still don't make it right.

        Of course that's just my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cardsearch
      What irritates me is people who send some get rich scheme in my email and then another one or two of three later. I am tempted to ask, if you are doing so well on the first program, why are you promoting so many others?
      Barbara
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Could y'all just shut up and buy my stuff, please. Less talky, more credit cardy. 'Preciate it.

    That's the "cut the bull*hit" version of IM. Does it work for you? Didn't think so.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    After reading some of his blog...tho his does give some decent advice I think that he considers himself too much of a "good guy".

    Too much of a "I am THE one who you should listen too and everyone of those damn guru's are all just a bunch of liars and scammers".

    Thats just my opinion tho.

    EDIT: After doing a little more reading he considers himself to be REALLY superior...if you read his Third tribe review you will know what I mean, while I do agree with most of his opinions about the whole blogging selling blogging he is going a little too far with it in my opinion.

    I have seen plenty of people making HUGE amounts of cash following advice from "the likes of Jhon reese and Frank kerns" and just dissing everyone as selling "hyped up products to clueless noobs" is going too far.

    And why does he think that in order to be a REAL internet marketer you HAVE to rank in the search engines and get traffic from that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
      Originally Posted by Marian Berghes View Post

      After reading some of his blog...tho his does give some decent advice I think that he considers himself too much of a "good guy".

      Too much of a "I am THE one who you should listen too and everyone of those damn guru's are all just a bunch of liars and scammers".

      Thats just my opinion tho.

      EDIT: After doing a little more reading he considers himself to be REALLY superior...if you read his Third tribe review you will know what I mean, while I do agree with most of his opinions about the whole blogging selling blogging he is going a little too far with it in my opinion.
      I can see how it comes across that way. He I think just vents on the fact that so many top earners are taking advantage of the little guys buy sending out a new product everyday claiming to be it the one you need to succeed when it all is just a bunch of fluff and not for the 97 they spent on it. When I first got into IM 3 years ago I did the same as most newbies and bought way to many products that got me no where. I probably spend 1500 bucks at least in the first 6 months on info products and earned maybe a fifth of that back using their guides.

      I have learned and earned more from Griz and people he refers to often for advice than I have in any ebook. I guess I am biased since I am doing very well off what Griz has taught on his blog.

      Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Yeah, his Blogspot has been in the Top 5 for the Keyphrase "Make money Online' for over three years now. So much for the people who doubt the SEO power of free hosting !!
    I havn't looked for a while, but the last time I checked the keyword "make money" online had at least 2 blogspot blogs on the first page.

    In some cases though, SEO on the content producers part has nothing to do with it. Look at how many highly competitive keyword phrases are owned by article directories, hubs, lenses, etc - without a single backlink.

    In many cases, the person at the top is more lucky than good. I'm not saying that is the case here, just an observation.

    Personally, I would rater be lucky than good


    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Griz Quotes,

    "The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period. That's the business model.
    Having said that true "Internet Marketers" use list marketing and blogs/websites to sell a wide variety of real quality products to people who actually want the product. No hype, no scams. No Refunds needed. Happy customers to boot. They aren't selling to bloggers. They are marketing product to targeted audiences across the whole web. "

    Link - How to Make Money Online for Beginners
    I've never read it before today, but it looks to me like he does a little of the same thing that he is slamming others for.

    He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

    Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

    I doubt it.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      There's a really interesting polarisation being produced by this discussion, and it's quite revealing/enlightening.

      It's probably quite clear from my post above that I have been reading Griz for quite a while, I have a ton of respect for him and the way he conducts his business - it's probably fair to call me a 'fan'. I also conduct my business in a similar manner, 'under the radar' and I keep my business seperate from my participation here.

      On the other side of the fence, we have probably some of the most popular IMers in this forum, who probably sell a lot of WSOs. It seems, in general, that they are not familiar with Griz and his site (some have never read it!) and in general they take a quick look at it before jumping to a damning conclusion - that he is wrong to criticise others (mainly Rowse) in the way that he has, and that he is a hypocrite.

      Learning lots from this here...
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Roger,

        From the perspective of someone that hasn't read his blog and is only going by the quote in the OP...

        I go to his blog and see Project payday and a couple of shiny blinking banners that say "Make $75 in 15 minutes" , " it doesn't get any simpler to make money online" and of course project payday - What conclusion should I draw?

        Either you think that pitching products promising riches is right or wrong, right?

        But, how can you damn people for doing it and then do it yourself?
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Jeremy,

          Roger,

          From the perspective of someone that hasn't read his blog and is only going by the quote in the OP...

          I go to his blog and see Project payday and a couple of shiny blinking banners that say "Make $75 in 15 minutes" , " it doesn't get any simpler to make money online" and of course project payday - What conclusion should I draw?

          Either you think that pitching products promising riches is right or wrong, right?

          But, how can you damn people for doing it and then do it yourself?
          So what you're saying is that you ignored a glowing, lengthy endorsement by me ('cus I'm always doing that, aren't I?) and you took a quick glance at the front page (thus ignoring what I wrote above about people being mistaken by doing this in reply to Simon) and came to your conclusion?

          Do you really see me offering my unsolicited backing to a hypocrite who would scam newbies? I thought I'd spent the last four years here doing precisely the opposite?

          Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone who sells IM products would admit that they have not come across his site(s) in their research. Ironically, this just proves that a lot of what he says about the MMO sellers is true.

          I don't know if you read my post above or not (#22), but I explained what you appear to have missed, and so did Michael, just above. If you haven't read the thread, then why comment - particularly when you're then adding your conclusions as such -

          He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.
          You said -

          But, how can you damn people for doing it and then do it yourself?
          He's not. He's not telling people that having thousands of feedburner subscribers pays the bills. He's not encouraging people who want to run an online business to try and emulate problogger (in vain). In fact he's barely trying to sell anything to those people looking to run an online business - he already knows that they're mainly social traffic anyway and very unlikely to make him money.

          Anyone who's trying to run/start an online business and spends more than a fleeting moment reading his site, will know quite quickly that those adverts are not for them - but they'll also know that he will selflessly share much of the knowledge that he gains from running those ads in order to help them with their business.

          No offence Jeremy, but this conversation just cements how I felt a few years ago when I had a look at what the 'gurus' in IM were doing - they were so busy selling internet marketing products to internet marketers that they didn't have any time left to research, study or practice internet marketing.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Jeremy,



            So what you're saying is that you ignored a glowing, and lengthy endorsement by me ('cus I'm always doing that, aren't I?) and you took a quick glance at the front page (thus ignoring what I wrote above about people being mistaken by doing this in reply to Simon) and came to your conclusion?
            Roger, I didn't read the entire thread or look for endorsements for his site. I don't need to know what others think to know what I think.

            With that being said I never said that the guy was running a scam or that his site was bad. I simply commented on the fact that he was promoting a product which in my opinion is no good...many others would agree with that.

            I'm sure that there is a ton of useful and good information on the site and I'll definitely put it on my browse list - maybe even for this weekend as we are getting buried under 3 feet of snow

            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Do you really see me offering my unsolicited backing to a hypocrite who would scam newbies? I thought I'd spent the last four years here doing precisely the opposite?
            NO I don't - and to be clear again...I never said he was a hypocrite or a scam. I simply commented on the quality of the product he was promoting.

            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone who sells IM products would admit that they have not come across his site(s) in their research.
            Roger, I don't research much in the MMO niche. I don't have a network of friends, and I don't frequent blogs very often. Other than Don, I am very much a loner.

            I do my own stuff, test it, and document it. That is about the extent of my research.

            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            I don't know if you read my post above or not (#22), but I explained what you appear to have missed, and so did Michael, just above.
            I didn't read it - but, will go back and do so


            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Anyone who's trying to run/start an online business and spends more than a fleeting moment reading his site, will know quite quickly that those adverts are not for them - but they'll also know that he will selflessly share much of the knowledge that he gains from running those ads in order to help them with their business.
            Like I said, I'll commit some time this afternoon/tonight to giving some of it a read
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Jeremy,

              Sorry, I edited the last post a little while you were replying (and was a little more forthright ). Yeah, I get where you are coming from. I do think it's polite/advisable to read the thread before replying, because in this case for example, your opinion is in total disagreement to mine - but you wouldn't know that if you didn't read it.

              So hypothetically, one of your customers who might respect you a lot but could be a bit of a newb, would see your comment and assume Griz isn't worth a read, and that ExRat talks rubbish. See what I mean?

              Hi Jay,

              Your cough was a bit vague, but.....

              I personally don't think he was being sensational, I thought he made some excellent points that were totally in line with the 'mantra' he has been giving for a number of years.

              But I agree that he's caught in the game - but aren't we all, unless we never sell anything?

              Not sure if I interpreted your cough correctly, but cough interpretation and analysis isn't my strongest point. :rolleyes:

              Feel free to elaborate though, using coughs, burps,chuffs or even Spanish(?) if it's more demonstrative
              Signature


              Roger Davis

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              • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                Hi Jay,

                Your cough was a bit vague, but.....
                Just a little "I'm on neither side of that fence" cough

                Having said that...

                Yes. We are all caught in the game. Personally, I chose to remove myself from that. It's much more fun making money outside, and reporting on this industry when you aren't directly involved... too much politics for that.

                Peace

                Jay
                Signature

                Bare Murkage.........

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              • Profile picture of the author Love2Blog
                The first post of this thread, takes a section completely out of context from Grizz's post, you have to read the entire post to understand the statement and it purpose for the post, and in reality to read all his posts to understand him.

                Grizz offers hands-on advice for MMO and IM, Pure, simple, straight forward and no nonsense information perfect for those who want to MMO.

                I think his credibility as far as knowing what he's doing for SEO is reflected in his ability to rank for the search phrase MMO, which is exceptionally competitive. And as we all know, that Page 1 for highly competitive search terms is where the money is.

                Ethical product, not ethical product, blah blah blah, who cares? The point is, we all want to make money and that is why we bust our butts, so why not learn from some one that ranks and then when you rank you can promote any product you want?
                Signature
                Highest Quality PLR - Content You Will Be Proud To Share With Your Audience - Sign Up For My Email List And Get A Ton Of FREEBIES - https://internetslayers.com

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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  Originally Posted by Love2Blog View Post

                  Ethical product, not ethical product, blah blah blah, who cares? The point is, we all want to make money and that is why we bust our butts, so why not learn from some one that ranks and then when you rank you can promote any product you want?
                  Who Cares ?? Oh yeah you are so right...........According to you I guess I will just tell my infant daughter that "who care about being ethical " in this World.

                  All that matters is making money, right.

                  Wow, you are a genius and such a deep and profound thinker !! Thanks for your valuable contribution to Warrior Forum. * cough* cough *
                  Signature

                  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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              • Profile picture of the author millionairemoney
                I've read his stuff extensively. The guy is a straight up G. If any visitors bother to read his blog, he spells out everything for you. No one does that. Imagine if he made an ebook or anything - he could make a killing. 500x more than he does with ProjectPayday.

                The IM world is all about results and he's got them. Not only does he have them, he gives the info to you if you actually read the blog. Yes, the only barrier to entry is you have to read.

                I'd say he's pretty damn generous. Thanks Grizz.
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                • Profile picture of the author BillyPilgrim
                  Good God,
                  If there was ever a "pearls before swine" thread, this is it.

                  "I'm not going to actually wade through all of Griz's posts (like I did) but let me send out my stupid comments anyway."

                  I love Griz and Court&Mark (and an early member) and can only say it's a good thing Vic doesn't see this thread.

                  One problem is that this very forum is awash with -let me rewrite and churn out the same recycled crap- WSOs. I know, I bought some. And a couple were ok, but many folks rely on the fact that 95% of their purchasers are just tire kickers. I'd be embarrassed if the bulk of my business was selling corn nuts to the hayseeds.
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi,

        There's a really interesting polarisation being produced by this discussion, and it's quite revealing/enlightening.

        It's probably quite clear from my post above that I have been reading Griz for quite a while, I have a ton of respect for him and the way he conducts his business - it's probably fair to call me a 'fan'. I also conduct my business in a similar manner, 'under the radar' and I keep my business seperate from my participation here.

        On the other side of the fence, we have probably some of the most popular IMers in this forum, who probably sell a lot of WSOs. It seems, in general, that they are not familiar with Griz and his site (some have never read it!) and in general they take a quick look at it before jumping to a damning conclusion - that he is wrong to criticise others (mainly Rowse) in the way that he has, and that he is a hypocrite.

        Learning lots from this here...
        :: cough ::



        Peace

        Jay
        Signature

        Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author Michael D
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      I havn't looked for a while, but the last time I checked the keyword "make money" online had at least 2 blogspot blogs on the first page.

      In some cases though, SEO on the content producers part has nothing to do with it. Look at how many highly competitive keyword phrases are owned by article directories, hubs, lenses, etc - without a single backlink.

      In many cases, the person at the top is more lucky than good. I'm not saying that is the case here, just an observation.
      I know you stated that you aren't saying this is the case here, but why even allude to the fact that this is "luck"?

      Sure, you can find many rankings from authority sites without any backlinks. Try ranking one of these site's articles, lenses, or hubs for the term "make money online" - good luck. Maybe, and I mean maybe, you could rank for a short time in the first few pages. But this will quickly drop. This term is one that many would love to rank in the top 3 for because it brings in a ton of traffic.

      Even though it shouldn't be, I think that term is one of the most competitive because a ton of people think they can start a blog and rank for that term and related terms. Also, I think a whole ego thing plays into it as well. The truth is, those rankings took years of hard work and a lot of help to get. Not only are you having to build a ton of your own quality links you have to get a good relationship going with a lot of people to link to you (this helps more then people know).

      To even state that this "maybe" some kind of luck and that his SEO efforts had nothing to do with it is ridiculous. I know you said that you weren't saying this, but by simply stating that opinion you are saying there is a chance this is the case.


      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      I've never read it before today, but it looks to me like he does a little of the same thing that he is slamming others for.

      He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

      Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

      I doubt it.
      You obviously didn't read the blog enough then. If you actually read the blog and follow him you would know that he only recommends products he has either used, or reviewed to be good. The only "MMO membership course" he promotes to actual readers is from one of his "online buddies", Court called The Keyword Academy. Now, I know what some of you are thinking. He is only doing this to help a friend out and get some commission as well. But, this course is legit. I have reviewed it myself. I can also guarantee he did the same.

      How do I know?

      Well, I know of someone who asked him to write a blog post about an upcoming product and he personally "reviewed" it before he would recommend it to his readers. He isn't slinging crap to people who follow him.

      He also use to recommend a couple backlink products that he stopped promoting when they began to go downhill. He could have just kept them up and said nothing while getting commissions still.

      Why the project payday?

      His blog gets all kinds of traffic for long-tail and competitive "make money" terms. I don't know exact numbers but I think last time I saw it was in the 100k/month range. If you were getting this kind of traffic what would you do? (not you specifically Jeremy)

      He was running Adsense and realized that he not only capped out on earnings, but didn't want to put his legit sites in danger of getting smart-priced. So, he attempted running different offers and found one that gets the best ROI. So, it happened to be Project Payday. Yeah, filling out offers to get a commission isn't a legit home-based business. But, if you actually follow through and cancel all the offers I have seen many people make a couple hundred dollars from it.

      Folks, out of 100k/ uniques a month how many do you think are interested in starting Adsense sites and learning all that goes with that? If they are they can read the blog and learn just how to do that. If they are looking to get some quick money then maybe they sign up to Project Payday. Of course it isn't ideal. Can you honestly tell me that you would have a blog getting that kind and amount of traffic and you wouldn't attempt to find some kind of offer that gets the best out of the run-and-gun traffic? I doubt it.

      He has also helped a ton of people looking to actually learn, and are interested in internet marketing for free. He doesn't build an email list from the site and send out the latest "guru" product launch affiliate link stuffed email. He tells it like it is. I for one, don't condemn him because he uses the blog to make money from people who just go there and find the shiniest banner promising money. It isn't his responsibility to make sure they read a couple posts and realize they can actually start their own legit business following his exact methods and learn it all for free.

      Anyone saying he is a hypocrite or a sellout simply doesn't have all their facts straight.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        I know you stated that you aren't saying this is the case here, but why even allude to the fact that this is "luck"?
        Maybe I should word it different then, because I wasn't referencing the site in question here at all. More just on the SEO comment.

        Obviously he didn't rank for the keywords make money online by luck.

        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        Sure, you can find many rankings from authority sites without any backlinks. Try ranking one of these site's articles, lenses, or hubs for the term "make money online" - good luck. Maybe, and I mean maybe, you could rank for a short time in the first few pages. But this will quickly drop. This term is one that many would love to rank in the top 3 for because it brings in a ton of traffic.
        Please see my comment above.


        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        Even though it shouldn't be, I think that term is one of the most competitive because a ton of people think they can start a blog and rank for that term and related terms. Also, I think a whole ego thing plays into it as well. The truth is, those rankings took years of hard work and a lot of help to get. Not only are you having to build a ton of your own quality links you have to get a good relationship going with a lot of people to link to you (this helps more then people know).
        Agreed

        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        To even state that this "maybe" some kind of luck and that his SEO efforts had nothing to do with it is ridiculous. I know you said that you weren't saying this, but by simply stating that opinion you are saying there is a chance this is the case.

        Again, please see me agreeing with you again - as well as my opening reply to your first paragraph that I quoted.




        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        You obviously didn't read the blog enough then. If you actually read the blog and follow him you would know that he only recommends products he has either used, or reviewed to be good. The only "MMO membership course" he promotes to actual readers is from one of his "online buddies", Court called The Keyword Academy. Now, I know what some of you are thinking. He is only doing this to help a friend out and get some commission as well. But, this course is legit. I have reviewed it myself. I can also guarantee he did the same.
        I don't regularly read any blogs. To me, it is a waste of time. So, no I
        definitely havn't read his blog enough.

        But, what works and what doesn't isn't pretty subjective, wouldn't you agree?

        He says the Keyword Academy is a good product? Is it? I have no clue. But, are there people out there that would disagree? Probably!

        So, more than likely there is another blogger out there that could say Griz is promoting crap....All of it is again, very subjective.


        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        How do I know?

        Well, I know of someone who asked him to write a blog post about an upcoming product and he personally "reviewed" it before he would recommend it to his readers. He isn't slinging crap to people who follow him.

        And he shouldn't. There are definitely a bunch of people out there that will pitch anything under the sun - scam or not for a commission and everyone knows who they are.

        The way some of you make it sound - Griz is the only person doing the "right thing" .

        I personally and many others would agree though that Project PayDay is crappy.




        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        He also use to recommend a couple backlink products that he stopped promoting when they began to go downhill. He could have just kept them up and said nothing while getting commissions still.
        Again, hop off of the man - Jeeze! You make it sound as if he is some kind of saint for not ripping people off. He isn't supossed to rip people off.

        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        Why the project payday?

        His blog gets all kinds of traffic for long-tail and competitive "make money" terms. I don't know exact numbers but I think last time I saw it was in the 100k/month range. If you were getting this kind of traffic what would you do? (not you specifically Jeremy)
        I wouldn't promote project payday.

        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        He was running Adsense and realized that he not only capped out on
        earnings, but didn't want to put his legit sites in danger of getting smart-priced. So, he attempted running different offers and found one that gets the best ROI. So, it happened to be Project Payday. Yeah, filling out offers to get a commission isn't a legit home-based business. But, if you actually follow through and cancel all the offers I have seen many people make a couple hundred dollars from it.
        I understand completely. At the end of the day, it boils down to earning a living and making money.

        But, the way you just described it almost sounds like a form of fraud?

        Sign up for offers to get paid, knowing in advance that you are going to cancel them? I've seen a couple products on this very forum get shut down for telling people to do stuff like this.

        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        Folks, out of 100k/ uniques a month how many do you think are interested in starting Adsense sites and learning all that goes with that? If they are they can read the blog and learn just how to do that. If they are looking to get some quick money then maybe they sign up to Project Payday. Of course it isn't ideal. Can you honestly tell me that you would have a blog getting that kind and amount of traffic and you wouldn't attempt to find some kind of offer that gets the best out of the run-and-gun traffic? I doubt it.
        You are in a way, proving some of the thoughts in this thread with that statement. So, he is promoting that product because it makes him the most money? Fair enough...

        But, on his blog, he refers to others that promote things just to make money in a less than positive light.

        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        Anyone saying he is a hypocrite or a sellout simply doesn't have all their facts straight.
        I didn't say he was either. I just said he was promoting products to make money, In the case product payday, which is a crappy product in the opinion of many.

        People don't spend thousands of dollars and hundreds or thousands of hours of sweat labor on SEO to get a top ranking site to just let it sit there.

        They do so, so that they can monetize it and put money in their pocket - there is nothing wrong with that.
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        • Profile picture of the author derrickp
          I think the bottom line here is that those of us who have actually read Griz's blog, taken the time to learn from him and work with him can see the value he offers, how generous he is and he has earned our trust.

          Those that haven't read his blog see it 100% the other way which can be expected because they do not trust him because they do not "know" him. Which is understandable.
          Signature

          Slime England

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    • Profile picture of the author derrickp
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

      Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

      I doubt it.
      Umm no... If you read his blog he tells his followers what he recommends them to buy and what he doesn't.
      Signature

      Slime England

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    • Profile picture of the author derrickp
      If you scroll way down to the bottom Griz shows his P Payday earnings and if you scroll just slightly more he says what he really recommends his readers to buy. Those not looking for "get rich quick" scam type programs.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

      I doubt it.
      Signature

      Slime England

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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      I havn't looked for a while, but the last time I checked the keyword "make money" online had at least 2 blogspot blogs on the first page.

      In some cases though, SEO on the content producers part has nothing to do with it. Look at how many highly competitive keyword phrases are owned by article directories, hubs, lenses, etc - without a single backlink.

      In many cases, the person at the top is more lucky than good. I'm not saying that is the case here, just an observation.

      Personally, I would rater be lucky than good




      I've never read it before today, but it looks to me like he does a little of the same thing that he is slamming others for.

      He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

      Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

      I doubt it.


      The only product he has every promoted really has been The Keyword Academy which is founded by Court and Mark who have an outstanding program. I have been following Griz for about 2 1/2 years now and I cant recall him ever trying to sell any products. I know he doesnt ever capture emails and he never has sent one that I am aware of.

      Now for the affiliate ads he has on his site he has gone and showed people how he made money with the project payday and gives a very good review of it for what it exactly is. As far as the other stuff he has now I believe he just switched over from using adsense to affiliate sales because it makes more. If you read anything in his posts he always states if your actually reading this then the advertisements are not for you and to stay away from them.


      So yea I guess he does promote things on his site as ads but if you actually take the time to read the blog he will tell you never to buy anything on them. The fact is that the majority of the people finding his site dont actually read anything instead see the flashy banner and move on. Luck or not I would love to be in his place any day And don think hes slamming everyone he is just tired of seeing the big guys in internet marketing taking advantage of the little guys by taking their money. If you have a legit product and it actually is something you use and it works then your good to go. Problem is that there is more crap than the legit stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    they were so busy selling internet marketing products to internet marketers that they didn't have any time left to research, study or practice internet marketing.
    I always see the "gurus" being accused of this, I'm somewhat new in this game compared to some of you guys, so how do you know in how many niches or how many products the "gurus" have outside IM/make money online?

    If you would know for sure and prove that they are only selling make money products about how to make money in the im niche then I would believe that but not knowing that and accusing ALOT of people is wrong in my eyes.

    I know some of them do sell only IM products..but there are also plenty of examples who have MANY products outside the IM niche.

    This is not directed at you Roger, just a general question for the more seasoned IM'ers.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Marian,

      I always see the "gurus" being accused of this, I'm somewhat new in this game compared to some of you guys, so how do you know in how many niches or how many products the "gurus" have outside IM/make money online?

      If you would know for sure and prove that they are only selling make money products about how to make money in the im niche then I would believe that but not knowing that and accusing ALOT of people is wrong in my eyes.

      I know some of them do sell only IM products..but there are also plenty of examples who have MANY products outside the IM niche.

      This is not directed at you Roger, just a general question for the more seasoned IM'ers.
      I'll answer it anyway

      We have to generalise to an extent, but there are always exceptions. Not every guru does this, and not all of the accusations levelled at them (of which there are many) will correctly fit each person.

      But I came to these conclusions after lots of discussions/debates/arguments with them on here, reading their sites and buying their products.

      It's not so much about whether they have non IM sites - (I'm sure many of them do) - it's about whether they simply paid someone to do everything for them when building those sites, often, using profits derived from IM - where they may have 'faked it to make it.' The point being - if you've never got your hands dirty doing all the things that the average newbie IMer has to do - how can you teach them how to start, build and run an online business - without simply telling them to outsource everything?

      There are many of them that are excellent at outsourcing, but because of this they rarely/never got their hands dirty doing the things that the large majority of small time/solo warriors will have to face - EG - FTPing, minor html coding, setting up the mechanics of an online business and getting it all to work together - for example.

      But they don't specifically warn their prospects that this is the case. They often act as if they assume that everyone else just outsources 'the dirty jobs' right from the off. But in my experience (and that of others I have spoken to), trying to outsource stuff that you simply don't understand at all leads mostly to getting burnt.

      It's a catch 22. You have to know what you're paying for in order to successfully GET what you are paying for.

      But many of these gurus who were allegedly earning multi-millions from selling MMO products to newbs, appeared to have no understanding of what the average IMer has to go through when learning a plethora of brand new skills.

      I do know, because I have done it myself (solo) and I have trained complete newbies to do it 'blind' - over Skype. You can forget FTP, hosting, nameservers and all that stuff - that comes later.

      The first things I had to deal with were - how to keep a tidy desktop, how to create file structures and naming conventions for their folders so that what they downloaded on Wednesday was findable on Friday - etc etc.

      Simple, basic stuff like all the new words they need to understand like folder/directory, DNS/nameservers, blog/website etc.

      Most newbies HAVE to learn this stuff, but most products they bought completely skipped it all and jumped to 'hypnotic words to use in your salesletter' or 'using multiple OTOs in sequence to maximise revenue' - but they were sold as 'ideal for newbies/push button easy.'

      This interested me, and from my observations I summised that a majority (not all) of the gurus doing really well, tended to be excellent salesmen/outsourcers/networkers but had no idea what the average IMer goes through when getting started - because they have never even come close to experiencing the same experience - and never 'walked a mile in their shoes.'

      There is almost no frustration quite as intense as the one where you spend six weeks on a project based around a product/system you have been sold on and purchased. You have spent ten hours a day understanding this thing, invested even more on ancillary products and domains/hosting etc, and at the last hurdle the damn thing doesn't work, neither does the helpdesk, Google doesn't know the answer, 100s of other buyers in the forum also have no idea...and you bang your head on the monitor and cry with pure frustration, as your perceived future is riding on the great success due to come to you if only you could get rid of that damn error message....

      And these are the reasons why the sellers incorrectly summise that there are a ton of 'refunders' out there, rather than understanding that their 'rushed to market without beta testing' piece of software and incomplete, thrown together manuals, (sold by a hyped-up borderline criminal salesletter) and non-functioning helpdesk/ineffective forum (with customers helping other customers) and pretend expert assistants (fire-dowsers) presents a nightmare scenario to the average newbie - which then leads to harsh comments in forums - you know, the 'whiner', 'entitlement attitude' 'hater' scenario.

      Hi Jay,

      I thought that was what your cough meant, but wasn't sure. You're the exception that proves the rule
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author Ram
    Griz Quotes,

    "The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period. That's the business model.
    Oh bull.

    If you are successfully building a list and selling MMO info using the methods you teach, then YOU ARE making money using the product you sell!

    Why the hell do some people think MMO products are somehow "less legitimate" than selling something about acne or depression or training your dog? They are all just info products.

    Go to the bookstore. There are a lot of make money books ... and diet books and self help and build your own furniture books and gambling books and cure your arthritis books and ... well, you get the drift.

    Make Money is just another niche. And it's an extremely profitable one. It is NOT somehow more ethical or noble to sell info about computer security, making your bird talk or making warts go away or beat speeding tickets than about MMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Roger, I won't quote your whole post because it's too long, but I understand
      what you mean about "doing it yourself."

      I have always done it all by myself. I've also been criticized for it because
      I've been told that I can only build my business so big by doing it all myself.

      Ironically, I didn't start off in the MMO niche. I actually started off as a
      freelance writer. I had to scratch and claw to find clients to write for. I got
      very good at it.

      I then dabbled in some affiliate marketing in the health niche because I
      wanted to add to my income. This was when PPC wasn't so damn hard. Now,
      I won't even go near it.

      It wasn't until I wrote my first book teaching people how to get into
      freelancing and simple affiliate marketing (it was simpler back then) that
      I actually got into the MMO niche.

      I sometimes wonder if I would have been better off simply getting into
      more of the guns and butter niches (my college economics coming back
      to haunt me) then trying to sell MMO products. Truth is, as you said,
      there is a lot of negativity and skepticism in this niche...and not unjustly.

      I don't have a solution to this problem. It will certainly take somebody
      with more brains than myself to do that.

      But maybe if each of us just did their small part to run an ethical business,
      we'd have fewer people bashing gurus and MMO products.

      Or maybe I'm just being naive.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Ram,

        I always enjoy your hard-hitting, no nonsense marketing posts, and have learnt a lot from them. I'm intrigued trying to guess who you are and what you do...

        But I disagree with you on this subject.

        If you are successfully building a list and selling MMO info using the methods you teach, then YOU ARE making money using the product you sell!
        If someone followed that blueprint, how could they possibly get started?

        Why the hell do some people think MMO products are somehow "less legitimate" than selling something about acne or depression or training your dog? They are all just info products.
        If you read griz's blog, you'd probably find that he doesn't. You'd probably find that he would suggest that those other info products are of the same ilk.

        But what about physical products? The type that sell every day offline and online, on sites such as Amazon - EG - exercise equipment, picture frames, paddling pools etc? Are they 'more legitimate' because they definitely solve the 'problem', and if they don't, they get refunded AND the seller doesn't feel ripped off because his intellectual property could have been copied?

        Go to the bookstore. There are a lot of make money books ... and diet books and self help and build your own furniture books and gambling books and cure your arthritis books and ... well, you get the drift.
        Is our only measure of legitimacy whether something is sold in a variety of mediums? So if the bookshop sells it, it must be legit? How do we decide which mediums offer the most legitimacy?

        Also, most books sold in bookshops (on a word to $ ratio) are much cheaper than MMO ebooks, have better research and references to those sources, have (often) passed the test of needing to be funded by a publisher, (usually) have the reputation of a large retailer supporting the refund policy, (usually) don't have any type of scarcity or upsell - and more.

        It is NOT somehow more ethical or noble to sell info about computer security, making your bird talk or making warts go away or beat speeding tickets than about MMO.
        Again, I don't think (overall, not just the quote used above) that he's putting the emphasis on different kinds of info products. From what I have read it's more to do with info products vs physical ones (as mentioned above).

        But to be specific, you said -

        It is NOT somehow more ethical or noble to sell info about computer security, making your bird talk or making warts go away or beat speeding tickets than about MMO
        and he said -

        The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this
        ...therefore, in my opinion he's not saying -

        'it's intrinsically more noble and ethical to...'

        He's saying -

        'in general, the majority of MMO sellers aren't as noble and ethical as they should be, therefore...'

        Subtle, but important difference - in my opinion.

        Hi Steven,

        But maybe if each of us just did their small part to run an ethical business, we'd have fewer people bashing gurus and MMO products.
        Possibly, but possibly not. For all we know the yin/yang equilibrium of the world could adjust to allow for your efforts, and the unethical sellers would become worse.

        And besides, what would a basher do with no-one to bash? We all have our 'jobs' to do - it takes all sorts. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Finally, I think Griz's major, major folly that many never point out is he NEVER went and bought his own Domain. Consequently, Griz DOES NOT technically own the 1,500 daily unique Visitors he gets to his Blog.
    He is at the Mercy of Google.
    Was it folly, maybe. I think his goal was to prove that you could use a free host and rank just as well or better than the other kids.

    I'm pretty sure that he has mentioned that he has an extensive network of sites and is only using the free host to prove his point and stick it to the other experts who say it can't be done.

    The Griz is like the rest of us, he has his ways of doing things and can be stubborn at times when it comes to certain techniques but that site is still a goldmine of free information.

    Should we feel sorry for the poor surfer who ends up at a site, doesn't bother to read anything and just clicks on the flashing ad that promises quick and easy money... I say 'screw 'em'... if somebody can't be bothered to read and do their research then I have no sympathy for them.
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    I'm all about that bass.

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  • Profile picture of the author Lucky500
    Interesting Discussion.

    If there is a king of Organic search results, that's Griz hands down. I started my love affair with IM after I found his blog. There is more content about Adsense, Backlings and Organic search results in that blog of his than anywhere else in the entire internet. If you are noob than there is no better place to start.

    That being said, I do agree with Jay that he got a bit caught up in the game. Maybe because he already exausted all the good information and now he is pretty much just doing this for kicks. I never got any good information from blogs like John chow, Shoemaker and Darren (this guys are not looking to teach what they now, they just promote crap) but I think by Grizz bashing them more often than not, he is doing a diservice for the newer guys that are starting now.

    As far being hyprocrite... there's nothing further from that. He is definately one of the good guys. And if you read his blog, you know what to click and what not to click. And who in their right mind would have a blog on top of the SERPS and not sell some crap too? it comes with the territory, you going to sell some good products and some bad ones... When you go to clickbank to promote a product do you look for the most ethical one or the one with the better conversion?

    It almost seems that the people that reads his blog are not the same ones that frequent forums such as WF. all I can say is that I learned alot from him, and I learned alot in the WF forum as well. I bought alot of crappy WSO's, but even with the bad stuff you learn.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ldimilo
    Hmmmm....people like to throw dirt, don't they? What most don't understand is that it is very likely that Grizzly is trying to rank for "third tribe review" and re-posting the next day (he rarely posts) with an internal link will increase his chances. He probably didn't have anything much to say, so he recommended Allyne's video post on backlinks and threw the WF a bone for discussion.

    It seems like a lot of marketers have been shaken and stirred up a bit by some of his accusations. But to be real honest, I don't see them as being too untrue. After all, when I see questions on the forums about how they should set up an autoresponder (one of the most impersonal ways to communicate, IMO)and how long before they can sell to someone (as if there is a formula), then you can see where most people's heads truly are and how they REALLY view those on their list.

    I responded to Grizzly's accusations on his blog and described them as too generalized. And they are. But I have to tell you, what he says has, in the very least, an ounce of truth to it, regardless of how you feel about him, his website, or who he promotes.
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  • haha, the fact he has you speaking about him on this forum shows just how influential he actually is....

    A person who is in the mindset of getting rich quick with credit card in hand is not going to stop until they get that product etc, all he's doing is putting those get rich money chasers out of their misery and making a few bucks of it. If he doesn't someone else will... I'd sure as hell take advantage of it.

    For those who are smart, have common sense or really know what it takes to do well in IM look beyond the ads and read on.

    "Can't See The Forest For The Trees"

    Big Picture/Forest = Looking at many facets of an issue and how they may or may not work together and affect each other to bring about evidence for a theory or disprove another theory.

    Details/trees = Looking at facets individually and being consumed by getting the exact calculations correct and deriving theories based only on those details in that discipline.

    Jay.
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Jason Perez O'Connor View Post

      haha, the fact he has you speaking about him on this forum shows just how influential he actually is....
      Not really.

      We talk about many people. Some are. Some aren't.

      Personally, Ive never heard of him.
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      $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

      SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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  • Just because you didn't personally talk about him doesn't mean my statement isn't true, both sides are arguing why hes hypocritical or why hes not, or if the way he is doing it is right and so on... I'd call that pretty influential in the fact he doesn't even have to be here and people defend/attack him.

    The fact his name is being tossed about back and forth is great exposure.

    And if he's classed as a rebel even better, people love to follow the alpha who stands out and just tells it like it is. Either way he has influence this whole thread one way or another.
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    IMO Reading his blog is worth way more than spending money on most beginner-targeted IM products. I came across his blog a long time ago by accident (not searching for 'make money online' but rather browsing some blogging communities). It really made a difference. His blog is a treasure for those starting online. He has some superb ideas that should be considered seriously by those who want to make money online, especially beginners.
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    Me

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  • Profile picture of the author rhab
    Hats off to you ExRat! Your post does an outstanding job on describing what it's all about. Beginners would be wise to fully read your post and then go straight to Griz's blog. Frankly, so would experienced marketers but that's a whole different story.

    I'm not inclined to take the time to comment in the "debate", my comments are more for beginners who may pick this thread up. I'm a no name marketer quietly doing my thing off the radar and making a good income.

    Anytime I feel like I am straying off the path, getting caught up in the latest and greatest, or any distraction similar in nature, I go back to Griz's site. I highly recommend beginners take some time to dedicate solely to reading Griz's blog, posts and comments included.

    I enjoy the WF and consider it as an element that was part of my marketing education. But frankly, it can be a dangerous mine field to beginners. I also feel that at times it was a hinderance.

    I truly believe that as a beginner, if you start reading his blog, you'll be able to chuckle and see how silly this thread has turned into just like me and others who "know" Griz. Because as we all sit here and debate nonsense and throw opinions around and make our stands, Griz is doing the basics, doing what works, and making tons of money. This is exactly one of the things which Griz wants you to avoid.

    So for beginners, don't get caught up in some rdiculous debate that isn't going to make you any money, go read what Griz has to say and decide for yourself, I don't think you'll be disappointed!
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    • Profile picture of the author GrizzlyBrears
      Rhab....

      First sensible thing I've read in this silly thread.

      Nicely put.
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  • Profile picture of the author macchiavelli
    I stopped buying MMO stuff a long time ago...I read so many books that finally I was like....instead of reading I should be doing!
    I lost so much money implementing what I learned via these MMO books but I LEARNED WHAT DID WORK!

    Its simple, find a crowded market, find a traffic source, advertise your product to them.

    Thats all it is guys....thats all it is...you dont need no 90 page ebook telling you that.
    Or 10 chapters on how to sign up for a cpa account:s
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