Straight from Griz's Mouth !! This will make some of you Uncomfortable here..lol

jazbo

15 years ago

I must admit I am a little lost!

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utproducts

15 years ago

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discrat 15 years ago

My bad I got the Link in now !!
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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by qkz283

Atleast link to the source, discrat!

How to Make Money Online for Beginners: The Third Tribe - More Useless Blogging Nonsense

Don't disagree with some of what he has to say but then's promoting Project Payday on his site which is total junk...

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discrat 15 years ago

Yeah Simon I agree. I promote free CPA Survey Sites at one of my blogs.
And Project Payday is one that I cannot ethically promote and sleep well at night !!
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utproducts

15 years ago

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Midas3 Consulting 15 years ago

Originally Posted by qkz283

True. Project Payday is complete junk. However, Griz worked (and works) hard to get his blog ranked high in the serps. He needs to make money somehow.

There's a ton of quality products he could promote from a nicely ranked Work At Home page, never any excuse for sending people to utter crap if you're also trying to be all holier than thou about other marketers.

Totally hypocritical to be calling out gurus, who at least promote half decent products whereas he's promoting total crap.

To say the choice is crap or Adsense is crazy, there's an entire world of good IM products out there, many based at newbies which would be an option.
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- utproducts 15 years ago
  
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  Midas3 Consulting 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by qkz283
  
  That's why he's not hypocritical,
  
  It can be spun anyway you want but condemm scams and crap from gurus whilist selling scams and crap is hypocritical in the first order, just because he only sells scams and crap to some people, not all, doesn't make him not a hypocrit.
  
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  discrat 15 years ago
  
  I really have learned from Griz alot and owe him alot. But I do agree that this hypocrisy has always kind of rubbed me wrong.
  
  Like you say the fact of the matter is there is NO getting around it. Acting like crappy is acting crappy. No and, ifs, or buts about !!
  
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  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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scrofford

15 years ago

Originally Posted by qkz283

True. Project Payday is complete junk. However, Griz worked (and works) hard to get his blog ranked high in the serps. He needs to make money somehow.

Sadly, it is either promoting crappy offers through affiliate programs or use Adsense. And Griz's blog has become useless for Adsense with the loyal readership he has developed over the years.

If you read his actual posts and comments, he doesn't sell anything. He really wants to help. He doesn't try to make money off of those willing to read and learn.

With that said, he does claim that Project Payday can make you thousands of dollars per month. Honestly, I don't think that's really true. He probably knows this, and probably doesn't enjoy promoting something that isn't that great.

He will even tell you himself that you don't need to buy anything, simply read his posts for a free education. The ads all over his ugly blog are simply for the search engine traffic passing through.

Hands down, Griz and a few others provide the best information (for free) on making money online. If you are struggling, I suggest that you start reading.

EDIT - Just to clarify, I don't mean to imply that SimonHarrison is a struggling marketer. This post is addressed to anyone that happens to read it.

You contradict yourself. I am glad you believe in this guy, but if he is promoting junk (project payday) and says you can make money from it and everyone else says it's junk...who is right? He MUST want to promote it if it is on his site. Nobody is holding a gun to his head and forcing him to place the link there.

Now just from hearing that product is junk and this guy is promoting it, why would I ever want to follow his blog? See my point? In reality I know Griz gives some good info, but why promote crap? Doesn't do to well for his reputation.

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Yeah, his Blogspot has been in the Top 5 for the Keyphrase "Make money Online' for over three years now. So much for the people who doubt the SEO power of free hosting !!

Griz Quotes,

"The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period. That's the business model.

I bet alot of you guys here can relate to this ??

I think there's a huge amount of proof in the initial statement yes.

The vast majority , even of so called trusted gurus, slam out e-mails for products that they have never used to actually generate a ROI. Half the stuff, half the gurus send out, I'm willing to wager they have done no more than give a cursory scan over to check it's not utter garbage.

The problem is with so many IM products is that on paper they are ok, they can be nicely delivered, nicely packaged up, nicely presented, hell they even sound like they should make money, but there's absolutely no guarantee they will.

Because what they carefully omit from the sales speel, is that the guy who made $15k a month from the what they are teaching, didn't make it by just following abc from their guide.

They did it by a never ending, 18 hour days of painstaking, tweaking, testing and analysing of their data, and this part of the equation is almost always overlooked by people in IM and never, ever covered in enough detail in the products sold.

Mainly I suspect in order to keep people from thinking if they have to do all this testing and tracking the product can't be the miracle they were hoping for.

Some guru gets a call from another friend who scratched their back recently., says hey "got a great product buddy, $1k in your pocket for each one sold and $250 pm on the backend, quick $50k for you at least if you put it out to your list".

Guru takes a look at it, sees it's nicely put together, sees there's no real backlash from it and says, what the hell, pays for the new mercedes and bang out the door it goes.

The initial statement is very true, money is made from selling people products, not using them.

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jasonmorgan

15 years ago

Don't disagree with some of what he has to say but then's promoting Project Payday on his site which is total junk...

While I don't remember if this was the product he was referring too.. he did state in one of his blog posts that the majority of his readers aren't interested in learning anything... they are looking for a get rich quick on the internet solution, and so he supplied what many of his visitors are looking for... and the crap sells. Those of us who do want to learn something actually read his posts and try to come away from it with a nugget of knowledge.

And he absolutely correct.

Most people, especially around these parts, aren't making any money with the products they are promoting... they are making money by selling that product to n00bs who don't know any better and are naive enough to think a $10 WSO is going to make them rich.

How many people here have "make a thousand dollars a week" junk in their signature and are complaining that they aren't getting any traffic, can't rank their site and aren't making any sales...the clueless selling crap to the ignorant.

and that is my opinion

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jasonmorgan

15 years ago

It can be spun anyway you want but condemm scams and crap from gurus whilist selling scams and crap is hypocritical in the first order, just because he only sells scams and crap to some people, not all, doesn't make him not a hypocrit.

Is a product is crap... that is subjective, I think most of the stuff promoted here is crap but I'm sure the authors don't feel the same way.

The truth is, you can learn more from reading that blog then you'll ever get from most of the ebooks being sold by the 'gurus' that have zombie like loyal followings of people making no money.

He calls it like he sees it and most people get a poopy face when you call out their idols as frauds and scammers.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

While there is a lot of what Griz says going on, he's also generalizing, which
is unfair and wrong.

I can name a ton of MMO products that actually make money because they
teach you how to sell to people who are looking for solutions to jock itch
and whatever.

Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.

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discrat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

While there is a lot of what Griz says going on, he's also generalizing, which
is unfair and wrong.

I can name a ton of MMO products that actually make money because they
teach you how to sell to people who are looking for solutions to jock itch
and whatever.

Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.

This is so True and I think people need to be careful about generalizing. The fact that Griz says he NEVER has met anyone who has made any money buying anything from these Guru List builders is just plain ignorance. And I dont mean that in a derogatory sense but in a sense that just because you have not met someone who has done it, does not mean its not happening !!

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reapr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

While there is a lot of what Griz says going on, he's also generalizing, which
is unfair and wrong.

I can name a ton of MMO products that actually make money because they
teach you how to sell to people who are looking for solutions to jock itch
and whatever.

Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.

Steven I will agree with this.

Here is my take on make money online products.

There are several scenarios even with a good product. Person A buys a product uses it as a road map to success and is happy with returns. Person B does same thing and sees little or no return. Give both these people different products and B may do good and A may not see any returns. These types of people either way buy little in the way of products because they are actually implementing and testing them. Mind you both these people likely did some research to see if anyone was having any success.

Then there is person C. This person is buying the latest greatest ticket to riches ... they rarely implement anything. The guide is more like a fictional work something to dream about it may get read and serves its purpose to person C.

Person C is what fuels the creation of garbage products in my opinion.

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period.

Amen to that.

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period.

Amen to that.

Amen? Seen your sig lately?

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Dennis Gaskill 15 years ago

I don't see what he's doing as any different from most others...he's as self-serving as anyone else, and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way, it just is what it is.
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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

Amen? Seen your sig lately?

hu? It is a fact that many guru's make their money selling "MAKE MONEY PRODUCTS"...and probably don't even bother using their own methods. Simply because they dont need to.

RANDOM EXAMPLE:

Let's pick a random marketer, say Brad Callen.

Do you think that Brad makes most money BY USING KEYWORD ELITE...or by SELLING and marketing Keyword Elite?

(Not here to say that this is one of those crap examples, i simply picked Brad because everyone knows his products)

And..what has it to do with my sig? If 80% of so called Gurus make money selling "THE METHOD"..this still doesn't mean that same principle needs to apply to you or me?

I can at least back up my stuff....but with some other marketers i highly DOUBT this. Simply look at some random clickbank "earnings proof shots"...and you would be surprised how many of those earnings are actually from the marketer SELLING HIS PRODUCT - and not from using his own system! (As suggested on the sales page

)

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

hu? It is a fact that many guru's make their money selling "MAKE MONEY PRODUCTS"...and probably don't even bother using their own methods. Simply because they dont need to.

You are applauding what that guy said but you do what he is talking against.

That's a bit....

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Trent Brownrigg

15 years ago

I am not going to get into a debate over how people make their money. Do what you want if it works for you and it's legal. There are plenty of ways to make money online and yeah some of them are much better than others, but that is subjective. What one person sees as crap another thinks is gold.

I will say this though...

Griz knows his stuff. I've learned more from him in the past couple years (all for free) than I have everywhere else combined in the entire 7 years that I have been doing business online. No doubt about it.

He is a master a making money online and he is more than willing to teach it all for free. No membership sites or any other paid product/service of any kind. Yes, he has affiliate links on his blog, the man has to make his money somehow, but he doesn't make anyone pay for the incredibly useful information he teaches. I recommend him to everyone!

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Ash R

15 years ago

I've been hearing about Griz a lot lately, and I'll admit I'm one of those late comers who hasn't visited his site yet.

However, I agree that most product from gurus are overhyped. Some people remind me of John Chow's blog tagline: "I make money online by telling people how to make money online".

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Simon,

Totally hypocritical to be calling out gurus, who at least promote half decent products whereas he's promoting total crap.

To say the choice is crap or Adsense is crazy, there's an entire world of good IM products out there, many based at newbies which would be an option.

I don't do much forum posting nowadays, but I do lurk a little. I thought I'd drop in and explain something to you, or anyone else who's reading - because if I can encourage anyone to spend a little more time studying Griz's stuff, then that's a good thing.

To understand Griz and that blog, you have to read it a little. You need to read a few of the older posts, pay attention to what's there and perhaps read the comments too (yes, I know it's a long read) and read PAST the comments.

I've been reading and learning from his stuff for quite a while, and I have the same principles, and similar attitude to online business. (Also, I spent quite a while posting here regularly, often exposed myths (and took flak for it) always told the truth and never had something for sale in my sig, WSO forum etc).

You can all decide to avoid Griz if you like, based on your conclusion that he's a hypocrite. But I urge any newbies who pass by here not to. He's not a hypocrite and he offers some of the most useful information for free that I've seen in my years working and researching online - but you have to do a lot of reading to find the good stuff - it's hidden beneath keyword-laden search engine fodder. He teaches methods that work, methods that are the opposite of a lot of what is taught here and places like this. He also exposes some of the biggest myths and dead-ends that you will encounter.

You may have to read past the comments to notice he's promoting project payday or you may have seen it in the sidebar. If you did read PAST the comments you would have seen this -

I have included Project Payday on my blog for all of my readers who write in asking if there are any legit online programs that they can use to make some quick money. Project Payday is not a get rich quick scheme - it is more like a work at home job.
[snip]
But seriously folks...

If you have made it this far down the page then I assume you might just be serious about learning how to make a real sustainable living online - as opposed to the thousands of visitors I see daily looking for that "get rich quick" miracle that really doesn't happen without a winning lottery ticket.

(continues to promote a trial of one product - 'keyword crash course')

Or read this (the 'affiliate marketing' post at the top) -

How to Make Money Online for Beginners: January 2009

or the 'about this blog' link in the sidebar -

How to Make Money Online for Beginners: About This Blog

I ask you, are those the words of a hypocrite?

If you take the time to read and understand what the site is actually about, pretty soon you'll realise that it was an experiment. In order to prove that the methods that the 'social bloggers' and 'MMO list marketers' were selling were not bringing the results that they claimed to 'the masses' who bought them, he wanted to show them what could be achieved instead in the SERPS with a free blog, simply using keyword targetted articles and heavy backlinking through a self built network.

He made it quite clear on multiple occasions that the idea wasn't for people to copy that idea in the MMO niche (although many did anyway), but to take the blueprint and use it for affiliate ads, adsense and eventually paid ads outside of the MMO niche, for physical products. He just wanted to show that he could dominate the 'make money online' phrases in the SERPS, using his simple methods, to prove a point. Then he decided to monetise the crazy traffic he was getting.

The experiment resulted in him having two kinds of readers, and he made posts and comments explaining this to the one group who bothered to read all the way down to the comments. He told them NOT to follow his recommendations made in the posts.

He explained that he was continually experimenting with the ads to get the maximum ROI and that this was the main function of the site - to make money - because the quantity of search traffic was staggering, yet they never bothered to read and learn and just wanted to click ads looking for 'get rich quick' schemes. He gives them what they want - if he doesn't, they will go back to the SERPS and get it from someone else.

Secondary to this (accidentally), he had built up a loyal group of followers (social traffic) who wanted to learn from him. So he told them that instead of clicking on his ads, they should observe his experiments, and read the results from them that he regularly shared with those who bothered to read all of the way down.

He clearly explained (time and again) that the ads and posts often weren't for them, but were simply experiments to maximise ROI and that the posts were long-winded diatribes purely to allow for keyword inclusion/experimentation.

He explained that there were some gems in some of the posts, but his readers who wanted to learn had to recognise the difference between a keyword stuffed experiment from an educational lesson. He pointed out that reading the comments would assist with this.

If that's hypocrisy, then I'm Elvis.

I have no dog in this fight, but it saddens me to see people here taking a cursory glance and writing the guy off as a hypocrite.

There are a lot of newer people here who are keen to find some truths and who have been conditioned to think that nothing good comes free, therefore they won't find ANY decent info on a free website/blog.

That's a good cynicism to have, because you really have to look hard to find it, and not much that's worth having in life is free (there is always a price to pay), but they could do a lot worse than going back through the archives of Griz's blogs, observing how links from places like this temporarily damaged his adsense income, observing how he dropped adsense eventually and uses ads instead - and a lot more.

To say the choice is crap or Adsense is crazy

He didn't say that, except for explaining what he does on his original experimental MMO blog - but the explanation is not 'crap or adsense', it's 'test and tweak to get the best ROI from the SERPS traffic.'

Steven,

Blanket statements like his are not only wrong, they're dangerous.

That depends. It depends on if you'd tell a newbie that he is better of building a list to sell MMO products, or that he's better off learning to master backlinking and the SERPS in order to get long term passive income from SERPS traffic to their advertising network - one that sells real products that millions of people buy every day in the offline world - a system that can be applied to the majority of niches AND can be utilised to provide services for REAL offline businesses that want an online presence, or want to promote their existing sites.

If you tell them they're going to be better off doing the former rather than the latter, then for the majority - you're doing them a dis-service - you're another Darren Rowse - YOU'RE dangerous.

Not so long back, it was a much better idea, which is why some of the older marketing material is legit. But as time has passed, the niche has become saturated, Google has declared all out war on the crap in the SERPS and the majority who try and become a star 'blogger' or IM guru will fail spectactularly in the MMO niche AND they will be misleading others even IF some of the products they promote have worked for them.

Add to this that the majority of newer MMO sellers are all smoke and mirrors, mainly newbies throwing up sites as quickly as they can - we see it here every day - clueless people desperate for chump change and a clue, but with a sig file proclaiming how to make millions - it's utterly ridiculous and contemptible - often they're black hatters, simply regurgitating and ripping off other peoples' stuff.

You may not like that fact and may feel that it's unfair on the small minority - but that's just the way it is - it's what the MAJORITY are doing - and it's also why some of us avoid this niche. No matter how much integrity you have, if you position yourself in this market which is absolutely awash with fakers, you will get tarred with the same brush - just like Griz has, here.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

You may not like that fact and may feel that it's unfair on the small minority - but that's just the way it is - it's what the MAJORITY are doing - and it's also why some of us avoid this niche. No matter how much integrity you have, if you position yourself in this market which is absolutely awash with fakers, you will get tarred with the same brush - just like Griz has, here.

So in other words, I'm guilty by association?

Roger, you have to know how wrong that is.

Or does that not matter?

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derrickp 15 years ago

No Steven, I wouldn't say so. I am on your list and you provide solid content and from what I can tell you actually do what you teach to promote your MMO related stuff as well as niches.

I also think you care about your list members and seriously want to help them out.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So in other words, I'm guilty by association?

Roger, you have to know how wrong that is.

Or does that not matter?
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Midas3 Consulting 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Simon,

To understand Griz and that blog, you have to read it a little.
You can all decide to avoid Griz if you like,

Bit up to my neck to read through a war and peace on that level mate, but I didn't say anything about avoiding anything, I've read some of his stuff on/off for some time and it's perfectly reasonable and on point at times, I often like what he has to say.

That said, and however you like to spin it, he is a hypocrite he is promoting utter ****e on his site, that's FACT , unavoidable fact, it's crapp, and at the same time he's blasting folks for basically doing similar, that's his perogative, doesn't make it not hypocrisy, which is my only point.

Does him being a hypocrite stop me from reading his stuff and indeed many others who fall into the same catagory, not really.
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Lance K 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Simon,
I don't do much forum posting nowadays, but I do lurk a little.

:SIDEBAR:

Roger, the WF is a better place when you post rather than lurk.

:SIDEBAR:
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- discrat 15 years ago
  
  Wow, I really stirred up the Pot here with starting this Thread !!
  
  I guess it must hit home for a lot of people. Maybe some guilty consciouses out there ??
  
  Anyway, my views on Griz :
  He has been the single most influential person in my Success in IM. He is a genius IMHO.
  I started following him 2 years ago when I first entered IM. I have read thru his Blog at least three times now. And there is some really incredible stuff in there. Its a MUST read for anyone in IM, new or experienced.
  
  I agree with Roger in that Griz is not a hypocrite and he really goes out of his way to help others. You cant really debate that.
  
  But every once and awhile I have disagreed with Griz and have called him out on it at his Blog.
  
  For one, I guess the thing with promoting a few junk programs here and there has rubbed me wrong a little bit. And sure he has warned his loyal readers that they are junk. But is this really right for the poor guy who ended up at his Blog there thru Google SE and is new to all this looking to make extra money at home ??? Is it ethical to make money off him just because he is a stranger and not the regular loyal reader ??
  
  Also, I will have to say Griz's disdain for building a list is just plain leaving big money on the table in my opinion. And I am talking about list building with non IM funnels. Like I said ignorance can stymie big time Success. And I mean that with all due respect to Griz.
  
  Finally, I think Griz's major, major folly that many never point out is he NEVER went and bought his own Domain. Consequently, Griz DOES NOT technically own the 1,500 daily unique Visitors he gets to his Blog.
  He is at the Mercy of Google.
  
  This kind of reminds me of how I rented an Apartment for 9 years when I was in my twenties. I never owned it and had no control over it and could not capitalize off any capital gains from it. I kick myself now in looking back at all those wasted months off throwing rent Money out the door.
  
  I just hope Griz does not regret in some way, shape, or form by 'renting/ borrowing' his Domain.
  
  If you learn anything from this thread especially you Newbies out there I hope that you see how important it is to OWN your own Online Real Estate !! For gosh sakes dont borrow it.
  
  Anyway, like I said Griz is the people's people and I have tremendous respect for what he has done and continues to do !! A few gripes here and there I must admit , but on the whole to me Griz is a true role model for IMers !! And I know he has good Karma coming his way for how many Lives
  he has changed for the better
  
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  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Simon,

He's not a hypocrite .

It doesn't matter if he is also handing our pearls of wisdom , if he plays the moral high ground game as he did in THAT specific article, and condems marketers for peddling junk whilist peddling junk, that' hypocrisy.

It's that simple, mitagating circumstances in the form of the fact that his blog in general is very good ( and it is pretty good) doesnt' detract from the fact he's being a hypocrit. Yes I can see he's playing to two crowds there, and if he want's to treat the quick fix newbies like low grade, sell em crap traffic, that's up to him, he can do as he pleases as far as I'm concerned, I'm not on a witch hunt, I just look at the facts as they relate to this specific article he wrote and the facts are plain as day.

It also needs clarrifying that just because he's a hypocrit over this specific issue, doesn't make him a fully fledged card carrying member of the lifers hyocrit club. It just means that as it relates to this specific situation being discussed , he is being hypocritical.

and he offers some of the most useful information for free that I've seen in my years working and researching online

Yep, agreed on that, spent some time digging around his popular posts, a lot of newbies could do worse than spend some time on that blog.

But again , it doesn't detract from the first point, him having good information and him also being a hypocrite are not mutually exclusive.

I notice amusingly he's now linked to this thread from his forum, enlisting support from his fans. Seemed rather transparent although, no doubt there will be some reasoning behind as well.

Or read this (the 'affiliate marketing' post at the top) -

How to Make Money Online for Beginners: January 2009

Again, just because he has good content, doesn't excuse promoting crap , the argument seems to be that because people are lazy and desperate and looking for a quick fix, he can feed them crap because they didn't dig deep enough to find his good stuff.

And you know what, that's his perogative , and it doesn't make the guy evil incarnate or indeed any different from a million other marketers but he is still a hypocrite to condem "X" for peddling crap, whilist peddlign crap, you can't escape that fact, however it's spun.

I ask you, are those the words of a hypocrite?

It's a fail argument m8. It doesn't detract from the basic point at hand, providing good information at the same time as bad, doesnt' mean bad doesnt' exist.

Then he decided to monetise the crazy traffic he was getting.

And that's fine, but again, and he could give away free money on his site and save starving children in Haiti, but he would still be a hypocrite as it relates to this specific set of circumstances.

I'm not even condemming the guy, he's free to do whatever the hell he wants, he's not ripping anybody off or commiting a crime, but

He gives them what they want - if he doesn't, they will go back to the SERPS and get it from someone else.

Again, fair enough, his perogative, doesn't make him not a hypocrit when he condems person A of peddling low grade trash and then he peddles some low grade trash.

If that's hypocrisy, then I'm Elvis.

Sing us a song .

writing the guy off as a hypocrite.

Not writing him off at all. He has some extremely solid , quality content on there. He's still a hypocrite in this specific set of circumstances.

tarred with the same brush - just like Griz has, here.

Don't think he's been tarred badly really at all, he's a hypocrit as it relates to this comments he made in his recent post and he's a damm effective marketer with a well ranked site, and a ton of good and useful information on his site, some of which I've seen people charge for and it's been of less use.

He's still a hypocrit and I don't even , at least partially disagree with the article in question.

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Simon,

Sing us a song

We're caught in a trap...I can't walk out...

Yeh I see your point, you're right.

I popped over there for a read today, and saw the 'Griz gets slagged' link. And I read the comments - some of them are kind of odd - like slagging this place off with generalisations, then getting all sheepish about 'following Griz.' It's like the internet is just a ton of groups of sheeple, all jeering at different groups, saying - 'look over there at those sheeple!'

I find it tiring to be honest, all of this 'us and them' stuff - I'm a bit long in the tooth for taking sides. I get the same feeling from most of the user generated content I see around the internet - it's mainly just depressing, tiring and pointless. Everyone seems to be trying to score points in some meaningless, nameless, virtual game.

It's like if you were employing someone to moderate a forum or the comments section on a site, you'd be asking them to step into hell and have to witness the extremes of anonymous human behaviour on a regular basis. But I suppose that's no different than paying someone to work in customer services, then treating the customers like dirt and putting them through recorded phone message 'choose from these options' hell before they eventually arrive, 20 minutes later, with a customer services rep who has to tell them that they need to dial a different number -

'Those who are offended by colourful language need not apply.'

After lurking for a while, I thought I'd try posting here and seeing what happened. I guess I just wanted to put across that out of the thousands of people claiming to offer useful information, Griz is someone who gives a hell of a lot - for free. And I thought it was doing information seekers a dis-service to put them off his site by just emphasizing that people felt that in one post he's coming across as a hypocrite.

But by doing so, I end up presenting a 'fail argument'.

No problem, I see your point, and you're only 'saying it as you see it' which is something I can't criticise, otherwise I would be the hypocrite.

But to be frank, I just can't be arsed anymore having these endless debates about trivia. The novelty has well and truly worn off. So I think I'll slip quietly back under the radar into peaceful obscurity again, for a little while. It's nice under there...

ExRat has left the building...

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discrat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Simon,

We're caught in a trap...I can't walk out...

Yeh I see your point, you're right.

I popped over there for a read today, and saw the 'Griz gets slagged' link. And I read the comments - some of them are kind of odd - like slagging this place off with generalisations, then getting all sheepish about 'following Griz.' It's like the internet is just a ton of groups of sheeple, all jeering at different groups, saying - 'look over there at those sheeple!'

I find it tiring to be honest, all of this 'us and them' stuff - I'm a bit long in the tooth for taking sides. I get the same feeling from most of the user generated content I see around the internet - it's mainly just depressing, tiring and pointless. Everyone seems to be trying to score points in some meaningless, nameless, virtual game.

It's like if you were employing someone to moderate a forum or the comments section on a site, you'd be asking them to step into hell and have to witness the extremes of anonymous human behaviour on a regular basis. But I suppose that's no different than paying someone to work in customer services, then treating the customers like dirt and putting them through recorded phone message 'choose from these options' hell before they eventually arrive, 20 minutes later, with a customer services rep who has to tell them that they need to dial a different number -

ExRat has left the building...

Yeah I have to admit I also find it cumbersome. I think Griz and his Blog are two valuable assets to the IM community. Like I said he has been the most influential person in my IM career.

That being said when ever I go over there and look at the Comments its almost like the Griz Cult. Really, it makes me sick. I guess as most people here know I dont pledge allegiance to anyone as far as being part of the good ole boys. Whether it be here , at Griz's blog or anywhere.

Its like some of these followers cant think for themselves and fill like its blaspemy to even question Griz. And they take jabs at other places like the Warrior Forum.

Personally, I utilize both Griz's Blog and Warrior Forum as two great online asset for learning about IM and what to do and not do !!

Iam not so narrow minded as to write off the Warrior Forum just to a part of the cynical herd !!

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traceye

15 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

That being said when ever I go over there and look at the Comments its almost like the Griz Cult. Really, it makes me sick.

As a member of the Griz Cult, although we like to refer to ourselves as the Bear Religion Of Google SEO (or BROGS), I'd like to say that we are just normal people trying to make our living online like everyone else.

Most of our days are spent gathering backlinks in the vegetable garden and baking new websites on the stove.

Other times we also like to sing songs around the campfire and pledge our allegiance to adsense and affiliate marketing.

On special occassions we all get together for a big community meeting where we all link to each other and see how far we can climb Google's big ladder of love.

Ahh good times.

Anyway, I must go, I think the blog farm bell is ringing so must toodle.

Peace out.
Tracey :rolleyes:

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Love2Blog

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traceye

As a member of the Griz Cult, although we like to refer to ourselves as the Bear Religion Of Google SEO (or BROGS), I'd like to say that we are just normal people trying to make our living online like everyone else.

Most of our days are spent gathering backlinks in the vegetable garden and baking new websites on the stove.

Other times we also like to sing songs around the campfire and pledge our allegiance to adsense and affiliate marketing.

On special occassions we all get together for a big community meeting where we all link to each other and see how far we can climb Google's big ladder of love.

Ahh good times.

Anyway, I must go, I think the blog farm bell is ringing so must toodle.

Peace out.
Tracey :rolleyes:

Ahhh, Tracey, you're giving away all our Cult secrets...be careful or too many will want to join and we might not have enough Kool Aid.

But, I think it's safe to mention that Kumbayah will be on #1 on our playlist for the next campfire session,

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discrat 15 years ago

Funny you try to use a little sarcasm and irony in your Posts but in reality many in here including myself have been loyal followers of Griz and his Blog for many years now. And if you have read thru this complete Thread you would have known that.
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Martin Luxton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Yeah I have to admit I also find it cumbersome. I think Griz and his Blog are two valuable assets to the IM community. Like I said he has been the most influential person in my IM career.

That being said when ever I go over there and look at the Comments its almost like the Griz Cult. Really, it makes me sick. I guess as most people here know I dont pledge allegiance to anyone as far as being part of the good ole boys. Whether it be here , at Griz's blog or anywhere.

Its like some of these followers cant think for themselves and fill like its blaspemy to even question Griz. And they take jabs at other places like the Warrior Forum.

Personally, I utilize both Griz's Blog and Warrior Forum as two great online asset for learning about IM and what to do and not do !!

Iam not so narrow minded as to write off the Warrior Forum just to a part of the cynical herd !!

That's a very healthy attitude to have. Be discerning, and cherry pick from different sources.

Everybody has weaknesses and inconsistencies and you cannot blindly defend everything a person does, personal hero or not.

The cults that grow up around certain marketers can be offputting, even frightening. Recently, there was one major IMer who was slightly criticised on a WF thread and all his acolytes jumped in spewing hatred at the non-believers.

Martin

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

But to be frank, I just can't be arsed anymore having these endless debates about trivia. The novelty has well and truly worn off. So I think I'll slip quietly back under the radar into peaceful obscurity again, for a little while. It's nice under there...

ExRat has left the building...

Nicely put, took the words out of my mouth , less forum chit chat more work.

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Griz is just being sensational....

It works really well for him, it has done over a long period of time.

What I don't like about his method, is the fact that this kind of "journalism blogging" (reporting on an industry in a journalist type fashion), is often the very same kind of blogging that perpetuates myths and lies within our industry.

Whilst he does a great job of dispelling myth and BS, he also adds fuel to the very fire in this niche.

I removed myself from promotion in this niche, so that I could report/discuss it objectively... some bloggers have too much vested in this niche to be objective about it.

This kind of blogging gets lots of attention, even if it lacks substance, I'm not saying his blogging necessarily does or doesn't BTW.

He's got plenty of good advice being given out in his content, but like anything else online, it should be taken with a pinch of salt. He's one of the good guys, for sure... but he's still caught in the game

Peace

Jay

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jasonmorgan

15 years ago

You contradict yourself. I am glad you believe in this guy, but if he is promoting junk (project payday) and says you can make money from it and everyone else says it's junk...who is right? He MUST want to promote it if it is on his site. Nobody is holding a gun to his head and forcing him to place the link there.

Now just from hearing that product is junk and this guy is promoting it, why would I ever want to follow his blog? See my point? In reality I know Griz gives some good info, but why promote crap? Doesn't do to well for his reputation.

You should scroll up and read ExRat's post... or better yet, read the actual blog.

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scrofford 15 years ago

Originally Posted by jasonmorgan

You should scroll up and read ExRat's post... or better yet, read the actual blog.

I did before I posted at first. I am not saying anything about Girz or the original post. I was saying qkz283 was contradicting himself. That's all.
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Steve Peters Benn

15 years ago

This feels like it comes from the salty droid school of marketing surely? I'm not meaning he actually markets but it achieves the same end?

He references this thread as well...

I'm sure it is all working out very well for him, and the posts will be useful for someone, but it all seems a little too tied together for me...

I'll end with this quote from the site:

Don't let the stunning graphics and good looks of this blog fool ya'... if you want to know how to make money online... for free... without all the crap... do yourself a favor... get a cup of coffee and do a little reading... Griz

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jasonmorgan

15 years ago

ahh... gotcha, my bad. tired eyes (that's my excuse and I'm sticking too it)

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Jason Zalesky 15 years ago

Well I have to put in my 2 cents. I am getting a kick out of all of this. The fact is that Griz has everyone hear that is posting bad about him beat. He is by far a better internet marketer than all of us in my opinion and I would love to be in his shoes one day.

Has anyone tried project payday who calls it junk? I actually tried it awhile back just to see if it works and the truth is that it does actually make you money. I made about 600 bucks before quiting. Yes it sucks that you have to keep track of everything and make sure you cancel anything you signed up for. The reason he promotes it is because you can actually make money.

He says several times all over his blog how if your here to learn then the ads are not for you and he gives a full detailed overview of the program on his blog as well telling you what it actually is. Its not scam its just not going to be worth your while if your wanting to get into internet marketing.

As for the product creation I have tried to do some of that myself. The fact is that 98 percent of what is being sold here is garbage in my opinion. Most of the WSO's I have bought lately have just gotten worse and are just rewrites of other WSO's etc. And the rate that they fly through now makes it really not worth while since you have to pay 20 bucks for about 100 views. But there is still some good stuff being produced just not like it used to be.

If you are a complete newbie however and just finding about internet marketing today, then Griz's blog would be the better route to take. Rather than the person who is looking to probably pay off some extra debt, buying a WSO which leads them to buy another because none are fully complete. That leads them to being in even more debt. Anyway that is my rant I just think people really under value truly good internet marketeers like Griz and he gets talked down upon mainly because people wished they could do what he is doing. Hell I would rather make a passive 9k a month off of one website that I can go two months without posting on rather having to rewrite garbage and try and get a sale.

So anyone who wants to learn how to make around 50k a month then read Griz's blog and see what kind of lifestyle he lives. And I believe the bulk of his income is from about 7 sites. Just do what he says and grab a cup off coffee or a beer if you like and read the blog all the way through from the beginning. Its well worth the time and you will gain so much. Oh and make sure to read the comments as well.

Jason
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Banned 15 years ago

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Steven,

So in other words, I'm guilty by association?

Yep. Not with me, but with the general populace.

There have been countless threads here about the problems encountered by being in the MMO niche, selling ebooks etc. Some have used the phrases 'used car salesmen' and 'snake oil salesmen' to describe how they feel about IMers and IM 'gurus'.

The average Joe buys X amount of products - 90% of them might be junk, so he then summizes that all IMers are liars, all IM products are rehashed crap etc and he becomes vocal about it.

It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the majority.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Steven,

Yep. Not with me, but with the general populace.

There have been countless threads here about the problems encountered by being in the MMO niche, selling ebooks etc. Some have used the phrases 'used car salesmen' and 'snake oil salesmen' to describe how they feel about IMers and IM 'gurus'.

The average Joe buys X amount of products - 90% of them might be junk, so he then summizes that all IMers are liars, all IM products are rehashed crap etc and he becomes vocal about it.

It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the majority.

Well, then I guess I can take it as a compliment that I have gotten
very few emails in 7 years or marketing from people calling me a crook.

But the facts of what you say still don't make it right.

Of course that's just my opinion.

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Cardsearch 15 years ago

What irritates me is people who send some get rich scheme in my email and then another one or two of three later. I am tempted to ask, if you are doing so well on the first program, why are you promoting so many others?
Barbara
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Zeus66

15 years ago

Could y'all just shut up and buy my stuff, please. Less talky, more credit cardy. 'Preciate it.

That's the "cut the bull*hit" version of IM. Does it work for you? Didn't think so.

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Marian Berghes

15 years ago

After reading some of his blog...tho his does give some decent advice I think that he considers himself too much of a "good guy".

Too much of a "I am THE one who you should listen too and everyone of those damn guru's are all just a bunch of liars and scammers".

Thats just my opinion tho.

EDIT: After doing a little more reading he considers himself to be REALLY superior...if you read his Third tribe review you will know what I mean, while I do agree with most of his opinions about the whole blogging selling blogging he is going a little too far with it in my opinion.

I have seen plenty of people making HUGE amounts of cash following advice from "the likes of Jhon reese and Frank kerns" and just dissing everyone as selling "hyped up products to clueless noobs" is going too far.

And why does he think that in order to be a REAL internet marketer you HAVE to rank in the search engines and get traffic from that?

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Jason Zalesky

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Marian Berghes

After reading some of his blog...tho his does give some decent advice I think that he considers himself too much of a "good guy".

Too much of a "I am THE one who you should listen too and everyone of those damn guru's are all just a bunch of liars and scammers".

Thats just my opinion tho.

EDIT: After doing a little more reading he considers himself to be REALLY superior...if you read his Third tribe review you will know what I mean, while I do agree with most of his opinions about the whole blogging selling blogging he is going a little too far with it in my opinion.

I can see how it comes across that way. He I think just vents on the fact that so many top earners are taking advantage of the little guys buy sending out a new product everyday claiming to be it the one you need to succeed when it all is just a bunch of fluff and not for the 97 they spent on it. When I first got into IM 3 years ago I did the same as most newbies and bought way to many products that got me no where. I probably spend 1500 bucks at least in the first 6 months on info products and earned maybe a fifth of that back using their guides.

I have learned and earned more from Griz and people he refers to often for advice than I have in any ebook. I guess I am biased since I am doing very well off what Griz has taught on his blog.

Jason

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Yeah, his Blogspot has been in the Top 5 for the Keyphrase "Make money Online' for over three years now. So much for the people who doubt the SEO power of free hosting !!

I havn't looked for a while, but the last time I checked the keyword "make money" online had at least 2 blogspot blogs on the first page.

In some cases though, SEO on the content producers part has nothing to do with it. Look at how many highly competitive keyword phrases are owned by article directories, hubs, lenses, etc - without a single backlink.

In many cases, the person at the top is more lucky than good. I'm not saying that is the case here, just an observation.

Personally, I would rater be lucky than good

Originally Posted by discrat

Griz Quotes,

"The truth about List Marketers in the MMO sector is this - they make money selling an endless supply of hyped up crap to noobs who are looking to get rich online. The people doing the selling don't make money using the products they sell - they make money selling the product. Period. That's the business model.
Having said that true "Internet Marketers" use list marketing and blogs/websites to sell a wide variety of real quality products to people who actually want the product. No hype, no scams. No Refunds needed. Happy customers to boot. They aren't selling to bloggers. They are marketing product to targeted audiences across the whole web. "

Link - How to Make Money Online for Beginners

I've never read it before today, but it looks to me like he does a little of the same thing that he is slamming others for.

He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

I doubt it.

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi,

There's a really interesting polarisation being produced by this discussion, and it's quite revealing/enlightening.

It's probably quite clear from my post above that I have been reading Griz for quite a while, I have a ton of respect for him and the way he conducts his business - it's probably fair to call me a 'fan'. I also conduct my business in a similar manner, 'under the radar' and I keep my business seperate from my participation here.

On the other side of the fence, we have probably some of the most popular IMers in this forum, who probably sell a lot of WSOs. It seems, in general, that they are not familiar with Griz and his site (some have never read it!) and in general they take a quick look at it before jumping to a damning conclusion - that he is wrong to criticise others (mainly Rowse) in the way that he has, and that he is a hypocrite.

Learning lots from this here...

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Roger,

From the perspective of someone that hasn't read his blog and is only going by the quote in the OP...

I go to his blog and see Project payday and a couple of shiny blinking banners that say "Make $75 in 15 minutes" , " it doesn't get any simpler to make money online" and of course project payday - What conclusion should I draw?

Either you think that pitching products promising riches is right or wrong, right?

But, how can you damn people for doing it and then do it yourself?

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Jeremy,

Roger,

From the perspective of someone that hasn't read his blog and is only going by the quote in the OP...

I go to his blog and see Project payday and a couple of shiny blinking banners that say "Make $75 in 15 minutes" , " it doesn't get any simpler to make money online" and of course project payday - What conclusion should I draw?

Either you think that pitching products promising riches is right or wrong, right?

But, how can you damn people for doing it and then do it yourself?

So what you're saying is that you ignored a glowing, lengthy endorsement by me ('cus I'm always doing that, aren't I?) and you took a quick glance at the front page (thus ignoring what I wrote above about people being mistaken by doing this in reply to Simon) and came to your conclusion?

Do you really see me offering my unsolicited backing to a hypocrite who would scam newbies? I thought I'd spent the last four years here doing precisely the opposite?

Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone who sells IM products would admit that they have not come across his site(s) in their research. Ironically, this just proves that a lot of what he says about the MMO sellers is true.

I don't know if you read my post above or not (#22), but I explained what you appear to have missed, and so did Michael, just above. If you haven't read the thread, then why comment - particularly when you're then adding your conclusions as such -

He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

You said -

But, how can you damn people for doing it and then do it yourself?

He's not. He's not telling people that having thousands of feedburner subscribers pays the bills. He's not encouraging people who want to run an online business to try and emulate problogger (in vain). In fact he's barely trying to sell anything to those people looking to run an online business - he already knows that they're mainly social traffic anyway and very unlikely to make him money.

Anyone who's trying to run/start an online business and spends more than a fleeting moment reading his site, will know quite quickly that those adverts are not for them - but they'll also know that he will selflessly share much of the knowledge that he gains from running those ads in order to help them with their business.

No offence Jeremy, but this conversation just cements how I felt a few years ago when I had a look at what the 'gurus' in IM were doing - they were so busy selling internet marketing products to internet marketers that they didn't have any time left to research, study or practice internet marketing.

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Jeremy,

So what you're saying is that you ignored a glowing, and lengthy endorsement by me ('cus I'm always doing that, aren't I?) and you took a quick glance at the front page (thus ignoring what I wrote above about people being mistaken by doing this in reply to Simon) and came to your conclusion?

Roger, I didn't read the entire thread or look for endorsements for his site. I don't need to know what others think to know what I think.

With that being said I never said that the guy was running a scam or that his site was bad. I simply commented on the fact that he was promoting a product which in my opinion is no good...many others would agree with that.

I'm sure that there is a ton of useful and good information on the site and I'll definitely put it on my browse list - maybe even for this weekend as we are getting buried under 3 feet of snow

Originally Posted by ExRat

Do you really see me offering my unsolicited backing to a hypocrite who would scam newbies? I thought I'd spent the last four years here doing precisely the opposite?

NO I don't - and to be clear again...I never said he was a hypocrite or a scam. I simply commented on the quality of the product he was promoting.

Originally Posted by ExRat

Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone who sells IM products would admit that they have not come across his site(s) in their research.

Roger, I don't research much in the MMO niche. I don't have a network of friends, and I don't frequent blogs very often. Other than Don, I am very much a loner.

I do my own stuff, test it, and document it. That is about the extent of my research.

Originally Posted by ExRat

I don't know if you read my post above or not (#22), but I explained what you appear to have missed, and so did Michael, just above.

I didn't read it - but, will go back and do so

Originally Posted by ExRat

Anyone who's trying to run/start an online business and spends more than a fleeting moment reading his site, will know quite quickly that those adverts are not for them - but they'll also know that he will selflessly share much of the knowledge that he gains from running those ads in order to help them with their business.

Like I said, I'll commit some time this afternoon/tonight to giving some of it a read

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Jeremy,

Sorry, I edited the last post a little while you were replying (and was a little more forthright

). Yeah, I get where you are coming from. I do think it's polite/advisable to read the thread before replying, because in this case for example, your opinion is in total disagreement to mine - but you wouldn't know that if you didn't read it.

So hypothetically, one of your customers who might respect you a lot but could be a bit of a newb, would see your comment and assume Griz isn't worth a read, and that ExRat talks rubbish. See what I mean?

Hi Jay,

Your cough was a bit vague, but.....

I personally don't think he was being sensational, I thought he made some excellent points that were totally in line with the 'mantra' he has been giving for a number of years.

But I agree that he's caught in the game - but aren't we all, unless we never sell anything?

Not sure if I interpreted your cough correctly, but cough interpretation and analysis isn't my strongest point. :rolleyes:

Feel free to elaborate though, using coughs, burps,chuffs or even Spanish(?) if it's more demonstrative

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JayXtreme 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Jay,

Your cough was a bit vague, but.....

Just a little "I'm on neither side of that fence" cough

Having said that...

Yes. We are all caught in the game. Personally, I chose to remove myself from that. It's much more fun making money outside, and reporting on this industry when you aren't directly involved... too much politics for that.

Peace

Jay
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Bare Murkage.........
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Love2Blog

15 years ago

The first post of this thread, takes a section completely out of context from Grizz's post, you have to read the entire post to understand the statement and it purpose for the post, and in reality to read all his posts to understand him.

Grizz offers hands-on advice for MMO and IM, Pure, simple, straight forward and no nonsense information perfect for those who want to MMO.

I think his credibility as far as knowing what he's doing for SEO is reflected in his ability to rank for the search phrase MMO, which is exceptionally competitive. And as we all know, that Page 1 for highly competitive search terms is where the money is.

Ethical product, not ethical product, blah blah blah, who cares? The point is, we all want to make money and that is why we bust our butts, so why not learn from some one that ranks and then when you rank you can promote any product you want?

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discrat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Love2Blog

Ethical product, not ethical product, blah blah blah, who cares? The point is, we all want to make money and that is why we bust our butts, so why not learn from some one that ranks and then when you rank you can promote any product you want?

Who Cares ?? Oh yeah you are so right...........According to you I guess I will just tell my infant daughter that "who care about being ethical " in this World.

All that matters is making money, right.

Wow, you are a genius and such a deep and profound thinker !! Thanks for your valuable contribution to Warrior Forum.

* cough* cough *

Thanks
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Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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Love2Blog

15 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Who Cares ?? Oh yeah you are so right...........According to you I guess I will just tell my infant daughter that "who care about being ethical " in this World.

All that matters is making money, right.

Wow, you are a genius and such a deep and profound thinker !! Thanks for your valuable contribution to Warrior Forum.

* cough* cough *

Well, you missed my whole point, but I guess it's just easier to be rude and obnoxious.

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millionairemoney 15 years ago

I've read his stuff extensively. The guy is a straight up G. If any visitors bother to read his blog, he spells out everything for you. No one does that. Imagine if he made an ebook or anything - he could make a killing. 500x more than he does with ProjectPayday.

The IM world is all about results and he's got them. Not only does he have them, he gives the info to you if you actually read the blog. Yes, the only barrier to entry is you have to read.

I'd say he's pretty damn generous. Thanks Grizz.
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- BillyPilgrim 15 years ago
  
  Good God,
  If there was ever a "pearls before swine" thread, this is it.
  
  "I'm not going to actually wade through all of Griz's posts (like I did) but let me send out my stupid comments anyway."
  
  I love Griz and Court&Mark (and an early member) and can only say it's a good thing Vic doesn't see this thread.
  
  One problem is that this very forum is awash with -let me rewrite and churn out the same recycled crap- WSOs. I know, I bought some. And a couple were ok, but many folks rely on the fact that 95% of their purchasers are just tire kickers. I'd be embarrassed if the bulk of my business was selling corn nuts to the hayseeds.
  
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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

There's a really interesting polarisation being produced by this discussion, and it's quite revealing/enlightening.

It's probably quite clear from my post above that I have been reading Griz for quite a while, I have a ton of respect for him and the way he conducts his business - it's probably fair to call me a 'fan'. I also conduct my business in a similar manner, 'under the radar' and I keep my business seperate from my participation here.

On the other side of the fence, we have probably some of the most popular IMers in this forum, who probably sell a lot of WSOs. It seems, in general, that they are not familiar with Griz and his site (some have never read it!) and in general they take a quick look at it before jumping to a damning conclusion - that he is wrong to criticise others (mainly Rowse) in the way that he has, and that he is a hypocrite.

Learning lots from this here...

:: cough ::

Peace

Jay

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Michael D

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I havn't looked for a while, but the last time I checked the keyword "make money" online had at least 2 blogspot blogs on the first page.

In some cases though, SEO on the content producers part has nothing to do with it. Look at how many highly competitive keyword phrases are owned by article directories, hubs, lenses, etc - without a single backlink.

In many cases, the person at the top is more lucky than good. I'm not saying that is the case here, just an observation.

I know you stated that you aren't saying this is the case here, but why even allude to the fact that this is "luck"?

Sure, you can find many rankings from authority sites without any backlinks. Try ranking one of these site's articles, lenses, or hubs for the term "make money online" - good luck. Maybe, and I mean maybe, you could rank for a short time in the first few pages. But this will quickly drop. This term is one that many would love to rank in the top 3 for because it brings in a ton of traffic.

Even though it shouldn't be, I think that term is one of the most competitive because a ton of people think they can start a blog and rank for that term and related terms. Also, I think a whole ego thing plays into it as well. The truth is, those rankings took years of hard work and a lot of help to get. Not only are you having to build a ton of your own quality links you have to get a good relationship going with a lot of people to link to you (this helps more then people know).

To even state that this "maybe" some kind of luck and that his SEO efforts had nothing to do with it is ridiculous. I know you said that you weren't saying this, but by simply stating that opinion you are saying there is a chance this is the case.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I've never read it before today, but it looks to me like he does a little of the same thing that he is slamming others for.

He is coming off as the good guy to gain trust. So when he pitches one of these crappy products, the readers of his blog and his followers are more likely to buy it.

Do you think he has personally used every product and made money with every product that he has ever promoted?

I doubt it.

You obviously didn't read the blog enough then. If you actually read the blog and follow him you would know that he only recommends products he has either used, or reviewed to be good. The only "MMO membership course" he promotes to actual readers is from one of his "online buddies", Court called The Keyword Academy. Now, I know what some of you are thinking. He is only doing this to help a friend out and get some commission as well. But, this course is legit. I have reviewed it myself. I can also guarantee he did the same.

How do I know?

Well, I know of someone who asked him to write a blog post about an upcoming product and he personally "reviewed" it before he would recommend it to his readers. He isn't slinging crap to people who follow him.

He also use to recommend a couple backlink products that he stopped promoting when they began to go downhill. He could have just kept them up and said nothing while getting commissions still.

Why the project payday?

His blog gets all kinds of traffic for long-tail and competitive "make money" terms. I don't know exact numbers but I think last time I saw it was in the 100k/month range. If you were getting this kind of traffic what would you do? (not you specifically Jeremy)

He was running Adsense and realized that he not only capped out on earnings, but didn't want to put his legit sites in danger of getting smart-priced. So, he attempted running different offers and found one that gets the best ROI. So, it happened to be Project Payday. Yeah, filling out offers to get a commission isn't a legit home-based business. But, if you actually follow through and cancel all the offers I have seen many people make a couple hundred dollars from it.

Folks, out of 100k/ uniques a month how many do you think are interested in starting Adsense sites and learning all that goes with that? If they are they can read the blog and learn just how to do that. If they are looking to get some quick money then maybe they sign up to Project Payday. Of course it isn't ideal. Can you honestly tell me that you would have a blog getting that kind and amount of traffic and you wouldn't attempt to find some kind of offer that gets the best out of the run-and-gun traffic? I doubt it.

He has also helped a ton of people looking to actually learn, and are interested in internet marketing for free. He doesn't build an email list from the site and send out the latest "guru" product launch affiliate link stuffed email. He tells it like it is. I for one, don't condemn him because he uses the blog to make money from people who just go there and find the shiniest banner promising money. It isn't his responsibility to make sure they read a couple posts and realize they can actually start their own legit business following his exact methods and learn it all for free.

Anyone saying he is a hypocrite or a sellout simply doesn't have all their facts straight.

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago