How Slash Your Response Rates Using This Type of Video Technique...

29 replies
... and it's a technique that inspired a rare public rant from me. I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

I got two emails today from well-known marketers.

Both of them had interesting emails... products that I was interested enough in checking out and probably would have bought.

Both of them decided to use a video only web page.

No words.

No offer button.

Just a play button on their video.

No way to skip ahead in their long-winded video.

No opportunity to buy or sign up or join or do whatever they really wanted me to do... at least no until their video got done playing.

That was several hours ago.

Their video might still be playing.

I wouldn't know because I closed the browser and left their site.

And they didn't get the sale from me. I won't go back to their site either.

As a potential customer, respect my time. Give me the option of placing my order or signing up as soon as I'm ready to and not make me wait until your video ends... if it ever ends.

As a professional copywriter, I've seen response rates drop by 20% by not giving people the ability to "jump the line" and place their order. That's not a made-up number either. A few months ago, I corrected this mistake for a client who was asking people to wait over TEN MINUTES before the order button would appear on their video sales letter. Response rates jumped as soon as I explained to my client why it was a response-killer.

Don't make your potential customers wait to order. Make it easy for them.

That's why on really long sales letters, there's more than one place to start the ordering process.

For the non-gurus reading this... please don't make this mistake, especially if you're trying to maximize -- not lower -- your response rates.

For the gurus... put yourself in your prospects' shoes. Would you want to wait 45 minutes to find out the price or place an order for something you wanted?

Me neither.

End of rant.

Take care,

Mike
#rates #response #slash #technique #type #video
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Hey Mike...I'm getting Deja Vu from this thread.

    I could swear I heard almost the same rant, almost word for word from
    Josh Anderson about a month or so ago.

    Boy, you brilliant minds must think alike.

    Anyway, I agree...it's annoying as hell and as soon as I see a video only
    page, controls or not, I shut it down.

    I want to be able to read what I want to read and not be forced to sit
    through, God knows how long a sales pitch...most of which bore me to
    tears. (Though I have to admit, Mike Filsaime's from a year or so ago was
    actually very well done.)

    I'm with you on this one Mike...all the way.

    Deja Vu or not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      Hey Mike...I'm getting Deja Vu from this thread.

      I could swear I heard almost the same rant, almost word for word from
      Josh Anderson about a month or so ago.

      Deja Vu or not.
      And from me a few months ago too - I ranted almost the exact same thing (I also got Deja Vu)
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  • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
    I find video and audio that starts playing by itself to be annoying - I'm not always wanting to have it blaring out at me as soon as I visit the site. It's a good way to make me exit immediately, as it's faster than finding the "Mute" button icon in my system tray.

    Video that has no controls to pause or stop is an even bigger annoyance. And as Mike has pointed out it's just foolish to make people wait until the end to see the price.

    I have seen a few good videos that I did enjoy sitting through, but one thing they all had in common was a Pause button.

    Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author David Allen
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Hi Mike

        I'm inclined to think that this phenomenon is more a "flavor of the month" tactic than the result of extensive testing. And unless the test is made against the same product and offer, I'm not sure how valid the results would be anyway.

        Steve W and Andy H mentioned that this subject has been brought up before. I remember Paul Myers having the definitive word, IMO, the last time it was raised. I quote: "I, personally, will not give random strangers a blank check on my time bank".

        That's exactly how I feel.


        Oh, and for what it's worth..

        Originally Posted by kiosk2 View Post

        Yup, at the very least give me a pause button. Twice I tried to get through a 20 min video sales ad and twice I got interupted, having to start from the beggining again.
        With most of those videos (AFAIK), if you click on the video itself, it will pause. Click again to resume.


        Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author TheMagicShow
    I guess people will change, their ways of videos because of these rants. Losing prospects because... of this limitation definitely hurts their bottomline profits.

    Long-winded salesletters still rock though
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    • Profile picture of the author RMC
      And yet.... the people in question will still sell out their offer.

      I know friends that have made ...well massive amounts of money this way. At some point, I have to think...you can't please everyone. I dunno, I don't think I see these on evergreen sites. Seems to be best suited for limited quantity.

      I keep searching for an answer on this one...it keeps coming up and every time I think to myself, why? Why do they keep doing it?

      I don't know for sure, but maybe it's for the people like me that ask too many questions. I have to know the answer to what's next. So I scour source code, and look in search engines until I find the landing page. I love to beat the system...but then I think...maybe that's what they wanted me to do??? Anticipation, curiosity, it just builds up...

      But me, I rarely buy anything like that...

      Now usually, these are attached to a high price point. Perhaps the few that are inclined to wade through all the muck, are actually charged up by the curiosity etc. and inclined to spend more.

      With your 20% number, have you tested high vs. low price points and response?

      I'm very curious to know the real story on these...they are oddly pervasive on mid range price points, despite all the backlash.

      All these stupid millionaires are making me wonder if I should be stupid too???
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Originally Posted by RMC View Post

        And yet.... the people in question will still sell out their offer.

        I know friends that have made ...well massive amounts of money this way. At some point, I have to think...you can't please everyone. I dunno, I don't think I see these on evergreen sites. Seems to be best suited for limited quantity.
        If you have large volume of traffic being sent to the site and you're offering a limited quantity, then you're less concerned with conversion rates. That's especially true with $1K+ products or ones you're going to pull off the market until further notice.

        I keep searching for an answer on this one...it keeps coming up and every time I think to myself, why? Why do they keep doing it?
        The majority of online marketers don't test. In the IM niche, there is a lot of tactics that are copied from the more prominent product launches.

        When you have an army of affiliates who will contact their combined lists of 100K+ people on your behalf, you don't need a strong conversion rate to make a lot of money.

        You can do things use poorly written sales letters... badly laid-out order forms... 45 minute video sales letters... video only squeeze pages... etc, etc, etc and you will get away with it (to a point). If things are converting too badly, then your affiliates will rightfully complain. But most of the time, they won't.


        I don't know for sure, but maybe it's for the people like me that ask too many questions. I have to know the answer to what's next. So I scour source code, and look in search engines until I find the landing page. I love to beat the system...but then I think...maybe that's what they wanted me to do??? Anticipation, curiosity, it just builds up...
        I usually look at the source code too. In both of the ones I saw today, there was no landing page listed in the source code.

        With your 20% number, have you tested high vs. low price points and response?
        It was on a product with a $200+ price point.

        I'm very curious to know the real story on these...they are oddly pervasive on mid range price points, despite all the backlash.

        All these stupid millionaires are making me wonder if I should be stupid too???
        Well... As Jesse mentioned, it can vary from market to market and product to product. The only conclusive way to know for sure is to test (split-test or multi-variate test).

        I think it's an increasing case of copycatting the technique without fully understanding why it doesn't work for every product or market.

        The thing is... why make it any harder for the prospect to order from you? Even people worked into a strong prelaunch frenzy will start to cool off as they are sitting there waiting until you let them order.

        Unless you have a really strong sales script worked into your video -- and most videos do not -- you won't keep the majority of your prospects sitting on the end of their seat for 10... 20... or 45 minutes.

        Take care,

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

    ... and it's a technique that inspired a rare public rant from me. I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

    I got two emails today from well-known marketers.

    Both of them had interesting emails... products that I was interested enough in checking out and probably would have bought.

    Both of them decided to use a video only web page.

    No words.

    No offer button.

    Just a play button on their video.

    No way to skip ahead in their long-winded video.

    No opportunity to buy or sign up or join or do whatever they really wanted me to do... at least no until their video got done playing.

    That was several hours ago.

    Their video might still be playing.

    I wouldn't know because I closed the browser and left their site.

    And they didn't get the sale from me. I won't go back to their site either.

    As a potential customer, respect my time. Give me the option of placing my order or signing up as soon as I'm ready to and not make me wait until your video ends... if it ever ends.

    As a professional copywriter, I've seen response rates drop by 20% by not giving people the ability to "jump the line" and place their order. That's not a made-up number either. A few months ago, I corrected this mistake for a client who was asking people to wait over TEN MINUTES before the order button would appear on their video sales letter. Response rates jumped as soon as I explained to my client why it was a response-killer.

    Don't make your potential customers wait to order. Make it easy for them.

    That's why on really long sales letters, there's more than one place to start the ordering process.

    For the non-gurus reading this... please don't make this mistake, especially if you're trying to maximize -- not lower -- your response rates.

    For the gurus... put yourself in your prospects' shoes. Would you want to wait 45 minutes to find out the price or place an order for something you wanted?

    Me neither.

    End of rant.

    Take care,

    Mike
    You bring up a good point. But then again, I think it's all
    relative to your marketing and your audience.

    For instance... the order button on one of my video sales
    letters doesn't pop up until about the 14th minute. And
    after split testing against an identical video which had
    the order button readily available, it's outperformed by
    a pretty wide margin.

    So while it may not be liked by many... it works. But like
    you said, not ALL the time.

    That's why you can't label the strategy as either 'good'
    or 'bad.' Because it's going to vary from marketer to
    marketer; from product to product. So it's all relative.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
    Mike,

    I see your side of the argument because I, for the most part, agree with you. I kind of see "the other side's" argument as well because they're trying to make you give your undivided attention to their sales pitch so that they get their full messages across and hopefully get you amped up to buy.

    Maybe if people stopped buying, the gurus would start testing different video strategies. Doesn't sound likely, but it could happen

    Curtis
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Myers
    I hate these things too!

    But when you see it being used by VERY successful marketers who are known to test everything, there has to be something to it. Despite how you feel about it.

    Don't forget, the same thing was said about long salesletters, and we all know those out preformed short sales letters in multiple areas.

    So if you hate these videos, but still want to see them and watch what's going on as far as the sales process goes, just do what I do...

    Screen record the video!

    I use ScreenFlow for this. I just hit record, go about my business, check back on it every now and them, and when it's done, I watch it at my leisure (with a fast-forward button) and have a copy of it to study and "reverse engineer".

    Hope this helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
    I strongly consider that maybe the people it drives away might be people who would be disappointed in the quality/content of the product being advertised anyway? For example, I see lots of infomercials that make me wonder who buys this godawful crap (or pretty much the entire concept of QVC or HSC) but then again, lots do and love it. It's targeted marketing, but you aren't the target.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

      I strongly consider that maybe the people it drives away might be people who would be disappointed in the quality/content of the product being advertised anyway? For example, I see lots of infomercials that make me wonder who buys this godawful crap (or pretty much the entire concept of QVC or HSC) but then again, lots do and love it. It's targeted marketing, but you aren't the target.
      Colin, I agree with 95% of what you said.

      The only part I'd politely disagree with the video with no controls or copy will cause me (and others apparently) to get completely annoyed. I get annoyed enough that I leave the site before I find out the key points that I wanted to know like what's included... the offer... and then the price.

      Blame on being an impatient type A personality, I guess.

      It's why as a potential customer, I like reading sales copy... doesn't matter if it's 1 paragraph or 100 pages. If I can skim it and discover the key things I want to know before I make a buying decision, then I'm happy.

      If it's real good copy, then as a potential customer I'll read it. If it's not or I'm pressed for time, then I'll skim it to find the key info I need to know. But give me a video that I can't skip ahead to the key info and I'm gone.

      Take care,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Colin, I agree with 95% of what you said.

        The only part I'd politely disagree with the video with no controls or copy will cause me (and others apparently) to get completely annoyed. I get annoyed enough that I leave the site before I find out the key points that I wanted to know like what's included... the offer... and then the price.

        Blame on being an impatient type A personality, I guess.

        It's why as a potential customer, I like reading sales copy... doesn't matter if it's 1 paragraph or 100 pages. If I can skim it and discover the key things I want to know before I make a buying decision, then I'm happy.

        If it's real good copy, then as a potential customer I'll read it. If it's not or I'm pressed for time, then I'll skim it to find the key info I need to know. But give me a video that I can't skip ahead to the key info and I'm gone.

        Take care,

        Mike
        Consider (and this was hard for me to fathom too) that there are people on the internet that don't like to read or type or even use computers in general. I think there is a certain percentage of the population, much larger than the percentage you and I are in, who instead of being annoyed by such a tactic, are compelled by their desire to know more.

        Consider that this tactic for some, will force them to not distract themselves by pausing and going elsewhere. You listen from start to finish, then you take action after the clip plays, or you leave.

        Consider that with conditioning and actively growing such a list over time will get you very passive buyers who want push-button solutions.

        If that's your market, I think this actually will work well. But not as a one off play. This is a cumulative, list segmenting type of thing. (IMHO)
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

          Consider (and this was hard for me to fathom too) that there are people on the internet that don't like to read or type or even use computers in general. I think there is a certain percentage of the population, much larger than the percentage you and I are in, who instead of being annoyed by such a tactic, are compelled by their desire to know more.

          Consider that this tactic for some, will force them to not distract themselves by pausing and going elsewhere. You listen from start to finish, then you take action after the clip plays, or you leave.

          Consider that with conditioning and actively growing such a list over time will get you very passive buyers who want push-button solutions.

          If that's your market, I think this actually will work well. But not as a one off play. This is a cumulative, list segmenting type of thing. (IMHO)
          Colin,

          Not sure if you did on purpose or not but nice triad selling tactic there... ala Eugene Schwartz

          I get it... it's aiming for the most rabid, hot buyers. It's aiming at the folks who don't like to read too.

          It's cultivating a specific type of marketing herd with certain common characteristics.

          At the same time, it's turning away a lot of other prospective buyers too who don't want to sit through a full presentation.

          Take care,

          Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Mike:

    You know, you've opened my eyes something. Now I got a question for you.

    Does using the phrase '**** this sales job, just gimmie my product now' on the order button next to the video kill response rates?

    I'm actually curious, because I'm thinking about using video, and instead of using the normal 'buy now' phrase and just telling it like it really is.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Mike:

      You know, you've opened my eyes something. Now I got a question for you.

      Does using the phrase '**** this sales job, just gimmie my product now' on the order button next to the video kill response rates?

      I'm actually curious, because I'm thinking about using video, and instead of using the normal 'buy now' phrase and just telling it like it really is.
      Floyd, the only way to say for sure is to test it.

      Professionally, unless I'm writing a sales letter aimed at Hells Angels bikers, I assume the typical prospect is easily offended by strong language.

      I like to keep use phrases like 'Yes, I Want Product XYZ Now!' on the order button. If it's a graphic button made by someone else, then I like to stick with things like 'grab it now' or 'join now' instead of potential red-flag words like 'buy' or 'order'.

      Hope that helps,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        I'm guessing here, but I think a lot of these long videos are based on the idea of an infomercial - 30-60 minute video sales pitches broadcast over the airwaves or along a cable. Unless you use a DVR, the only controls are the channel changer and the on/off switch. The thing is, if you watch infomercials, you'll notice that most of them are essentially the same thing repeated several times - broken only by opportunities to pick up the phone or visit a website.

        Some of the online videos seem to forget that small detail. It's like QVC and the History Channel had an offspring, with the worst traits of each.

        But when you see it being used by VERY successful marketers who are known to test everything, there has to be something to it. Despite how you feel about it.
        Have you considered that the version you are seeing might be the losing entry in an ongoing test?
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  • Profile picture of the author zoobie
    they want you basically sit down and watch. That the sales pitch. Well some may find it annoy, some found it time wasting. But anything done MUST based on statistical data. If most people will just sit there and till finishes then that's the way..

    because is very important for online marketing there is no doubt about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
    Almost all the recent videos I have watched are designed that way- Ryan Deiss's videos, Amit Signhal's recent launch video, yesterday's Mike Filsaime's video etc. When I was watching Mike's video, for some reason the video stopped just when he was getting to the point, and then when I refreshed it, I had to listen to all it again. So I closed the window not willing to go through the torture again.

    But because they are all using the same format, I wonder if this technique increases conversions. Has anyone else tested this format? Have your conversions increased?
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  • Profile picture of the author theunknownthem
    It's a big killer when one has very slow internet. My connection most of the time comes from tethering off of my cell phone. On top of it being fairly slow, I've got a maximum data limit to watch. I leave before it even has the chance to start playing
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    This is a tricky one, Mike. In one sense, I know exactly what you mean.

    However, I suspect video marketing like this is trying to get closer to direct, face-to-face sales.

    In direct sales, I'd be sent to people's houses, where they "only wanted a price". Sure. Right. All I'm there to do is price up.

    Of course, they never actually got told the price until 2, 3 or 4 hours later, after I'd given them my full presentation. By then, I'd usually have a 30-40% chance of walking out with their order... because I'd gone through a sales process.

    So the thinking of these videos may be... sales presentation. They WANT you to watch the video before you even have the chance of ordering.

    They want you to go through the process. Why would you WANT to order unless you'd seen the presentation? (Of course, I appreciate it gets a bit more complicated on the Internet. If you've already been pre-sold, then no order button is going to be annoying, definitely. But were you really pre-sold in this instance? Were you really ready to buy?)

    Still, I understand how as a customer that could annoy the hell out of you. Believe me, as a salesperson I'm sure I annoyed the hell out of my customers... they still gave me their order 40% of the time, and were usually glad they did

    It's like the "long sales letters" rants we see on this forum periodically. Everyone seems to hate them, yet they very often "curiously" pull more than short sales letters.

    Still, having said all that.. I personally hate long videos, too. But I've learned to put my personal opinions aside, because I used to also believe (a) nobody reads long sales letters, (b) nobody will have me in their house for 3 or 4 hours, trying to sell them something, (c) potential customers do exactly what they say they will do.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

      This is a tricky one, Mike. In one sense, I know exactly what you mean.

      However, I suspect video marketing like this is trying to get closer to direct, face-to-face sales.

      In direct sales, I'd be sent to people's houses, where they "only wanted a price". Sure. Right. All I'm there to do is price up.

      Of course, they never actually got told the price until 2, 3 or 4 hours later, after I'd given them my full presentation. By then, I'd usually have a 30-40% chance of walking out with their order... because I'd gone through a sales process.

      So the thinking of these videos may be... sales presentation. They WANT you to watch the video before you even have the chance of ordering.

      They want you to go through the process. Why would you WANT to order unless you'd seen the presentation? (Of course, I appreciate it gets a bit more complicated on the Internet. If you've already been pre-sold, then no order button is going to be annoying, definitely. But were you really pre-sold in this instance? Were you really ready to buy?)

      Still, I understand how as a customer that could annoy the hell out of you. Believe me, as a salesperson I'm sure I annoyed the hell out of my customers... they still gave me their order 40% of the time, and were usually glad they did

      It's like the "long sales letters" rants we see on this forum periodically. Everyone seems to hate them, yet they very often "curiously" pull more than short sales letters.

      Still, having said all that.. I personally hate long videos, too. But I've learned to put my personal opinions aside, because I used to also believe (a) nobody reads long sales letters, (b) nobody will have me in their house for 3 or 4 hours, trying to sell them something, (c) potential customers do exactly what they say they will do.
      Hey Paul, nice comparison to face to face selling. I agree that's the strategy that is being emulated.

      Like you, I've done face-to-face selling... you talk as long as it takes to make the sale... or they ask you to leave.

      The thing with face-to-face selling is... as soon as the prospect tells you "Okay, I want to order", you stop your sales presentation and you start taking their order.

      That's where these long videos with no order button until the end of the video drop the ball. They don't allow people to order as soon as they close themselves.

      Take care,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Mike, you beat me to it.

        I've also done face-to-face selling and when someone was ready to buy, I didn't sit there and continue with my presentation, forcing them for listen to my memorized presenation.

        I didn't even force them to drink my coffee either.

        For some people marketing is all about the numbers, I meet those personality types all the time (they make me nauseous). Hey I'm a numbers guy to a point, but I'm also a relationship builder. I think respecting a viewer's time is a very small thing to ask for.

        RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
        Hey Mike

        True enough

        You know, I wonder if these video makers are perhaps missing a trick. If I were forced to go the VIDEO ONLY route, I'd make a SHORT 4 minute, 59 second video with an incredible cliffhanger at the end of the video to hook them into a LONGER VIDEO, and the link to that longer video displayed at the end of the 4 mins, 59 seconds.

        Then, for this longer video I would have an order button. At least, that's one split test I'd run... because you might initially hang around to watch a "small" 4 min, 59 second video... and IF it got you sucked in enough, you might hop over to Video 2... and then you've got the option of buying.

        I wonder if these video makers are split testing these kinds of ideas... because I agree, I personally wouldn't wait 45 minutes before an order button appeared, or even start watching a 45 minute video (unless I was highly pre-sold).

        On the other hand, I may well be tempted by a 4 minute, 59 second video...

        Salesmen are harder to kick out of the house (I know I was ), but videos can be stopped with the press of a button... that's something these video makers need to keep in mind.



        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Hey Paul, nice comparison to face to face selling. I agree that's the strategy that is being emulated.

        Like you, I've done face-to-face selling... you talk as long as it takes to make the sale... or they ask you to leave.

        The thing with face-to-face selling is... as soon as the prospect tells you "Okay, I want to order", you stop your sales presentation and you start taking their order.

        That's where these long videos with no order button until the end of the video drop the ball. They don't allow people to order as soon as they close themselves.

        Take care,

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

          Hey Mike

          True enough

          You know, I wonder if these video makers are perhaps missing a trick. If I were forced to go the VIDEO ONLY route, I'd make a SHORT 4 minute, 59 second video with an incredible cliffhanger at the end of the video to hook them into a LONGER VIDEO, and the link to that longer video displayed at the end of the 4 mins, 59 seconds.

          Then, for this longer video I would have an order button. At least, that's one split test I'd run... because you might initially hang around to watch a "small" 4 min, 59 second video... and IF it got you sucked in enough, you might hop over to Video 2... and then you've got the option of buying.
          Paul,

          I love that idea!

          If you do decide to test it, I'm definitely interested in hearing your testing results.

          Take care,

          Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Million
    They wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work.

    I think that style works better on noobs; they'll give up some sales from the intermediate to advanced audience to sell more to the mobs of beginners / people looking for the quick button solution that buy when they get excited.

    The longer you bake the cake...
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Normally I don't like to chime in on threads about how a marketer markets to others, but I think Mike brings up a good point here. There's smart marketing, then there's lazy marketing. For me this one has more to do about the user experience. Marketing metrics are important, but somethings are just as important, if not more. I see it as common courtesy to let the viewer know how long the video is going to be.

    People have busy lives. There might be kids recital the person has to go in an hour. The elderly parent they're taken care of might feel ill and need tending to. Sure, one can hit the pause button, assuming there is one, but that's not the point.

    Personally, I won't even view a video now unless I know how long it is, that way I can decide whether or not I want to invest the time to watch it.

    I think this quote from the OP summed it nicely for me:

    As a potential customer, respect my time. Give me the option of placing my order or signing up as soon as I'm ready to and not make me wait until your video ends... if it ever ends.
    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author pjblanch
    I thought I was a nut, but after reading this thread, I feel better.

    I just got off a video-only page with - yep - just a play button. The back-breaker was this though: The video would only load ONCE. If you made a mistake or otherwise closed it, it wouldn't load. (He said in his second video that the reason he made his video this way was because successful decision makers make a decision "right then". Something bothers me about that.)

    Just as an experiment, I cleared cookies, cache, etc. Still doesn't load. Went on FLV blogs. I'm not knowledgeable/talented enough to figure out the code. Must be server-side, but I didn't know computer/address stuff could be passed to their server. Maybe so. I learn something every day I suppose.

    I just wish they wouldn't manipulate folks so. My simple solution is to click off before I become frustrated.
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