GURUS - Are they real IM legends OR just newbie exploiters?

39 replies
Hey Guys!

Just wanted to start a discussion about Gurus here. We all (I think) came across GURUS when we started in IM, because they were the ones who put themselves out there for us to find.

My question is, what do you feel the GURU title IS?

A number of people on this forum could be labelled gurus, but then there is quite a taboo surrounding the word for SOME.

Whaddya you think?

Mubarak
#exploiters #gurus #legends #newbie #real
  • Profile picture of the author milo_pl
    Everybody can become a guru...some (if not most) of them are just fake and the only money they've made are on the whatever thing they're selling. Hell, we see wannabe guru's on most sales pages...

    So summing up, being a guru is just a marketing tool to make more sales - you post your name, picture and your "achievements" like screenshots of your earnings, videos etc.. and there you go - you're a guru now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
    There are three categories I have run into:

    There are self-proclaimed gurus - They are not worth a dime.

    There are gurus who resist the title, but their supporters force it upon them - They are worth a lot.

    Then there are teachers, who may or may not be a guru, and many times they are the most valuable of all. While they may not be making a fortune, they can get the message through to us, clearly, concisely, and accurately. - These people are worth a fortune, because they help us create our own opportunities, and success.

    There are people in all of these categories right here on the WF.
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    • Profile picture of the author Syndicator
      I agree that when you 1st start out you find the GURUS first as they are more visible and forums such as this are harder to find.

      I recall seeing all sorts of really amateurish training videos of guys showing a room full of other guys how to open an ftp client and what wordpress and alike. And these guys paid $1000's of dollars to learn this and sit through this 'training'.

      They deserve the GURU tag just for convincing these guys to pay!

      Then you check out their websites and they had crap graphics, basic layouts - simplified sites.

      BUT these guys, given the time they have had in the game, are now called GURUS because their methods were new, not as may people were doing IM and they had an edge....And by their proclaimed accounts have made 10's of millions of dollars.

      Does that deserve a GURU tag?

      I have bought some of their other products, yes I have.
      Will I buy some of them again, probably
      Did I learn anything from them?

      Of Course. But do they deserve the GURU title? Who cares if they give us what we need when we need it.
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      • Profile picture of the author kswr123
        Originally Posted by Syndicator View Post

        Who cares if they give us what we need when we need it.
        Maybe...

        Perhaps the Guru is different for each person. Someone might be a GURU for you because of a wicked WSO

        So, perhaps guru is subjective and personal. Maybe there is no real definition.

        Although...:

        recognized leader in some field or of some movement; "a guru of genomics"

        from the dictionary.
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    • Profile picture of the author scottgallagher
      ahhh, the discussions and opinions!

      The law of expectations dictates you should visualize what you strive for. So self proclamation of expertise could be argued as a means focused on success.

      On the other hand, GURU by definition is "...is a person who some people regard as an expert or leader". Therefore, you can not self proclaim yourself!

      Just some thoughts
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by scottgallagher View Post

        ahhh, the discussions and opinions!

        The law of expectations dictates you should visualize what you strive for. So self proclamation of expertise could be argued as a means focused on success.

        On the other hand, GURU by definition is "...is a person who some people regard as an expert or leader". Therefore, you can not self proclaim yourself!

        Just some thoughts
        Ah...well, it could be argued that way, but that argument could easily and quickly be shot down. Visualization is an internal process, not a public proclamation. Publicly claiming to be that which you are not can lead to all sorts of problems, not the least of which is ridicule.

        You got it just right on your other hand though.
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        • Profile picture of the author kswr123
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Ah...well, it could be argued that way, but that argument could easily and quickly be shot down. Visualization is an internal process, not a public proclamation. Publicly claiming to be that which you are not can lead to all sorts of problems, not the least of which is ridicule.

          You got it just right on your other hand though.
          Right - you can see yourself as a guru, but dont tell anyone else!

          Hmm - so what could we say our definition of a guru has become?
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem View Post

            Hmm - so what could we say our definition of a guru has become?
            Mine hasn't changed. In the context of this discussion, it's a temporary title of honor given in appreciation of another. Your definition can be anything you like.
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  • Profile picture of the author kswr123
    true - but in the IM circles we have people who we can clearly see have 'made it'. Irwin "Frank" Kern, Mr. Abraham himself and more. They clerly aint posers.

    Then we have the people claiming to have made it, and we can tell that they have not.

    Finally, then, there are people that you arent sure about. For example, people who claim to be 'underground' marketers. How can we tell if they are scammers?

    There are certainly different types of guru, from the self-proclaimed to the downright fake. And then those who deserve it, as you said KD.

    I guess my question is, what can you do to DESERVE the label? Do you only have to be a teacher? For example, many of us have become 'teachers' in random niches, putting up articles and blogs for all sorts of topics. Could we be gurus in those catagories? For example, if I tell someone how to live green, but I am churning through 3 tonnes of coal a day, can I be labelled a 'guru'?

    Mubarak
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    • Profile picture of the author Syndicator
      Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem View Post

      For example, if I tell someone how to live green, but I am churning through 3 tonnes of coal a day, can I be labelled a 'guru'?

      Mubarak
      That is more of a moral compass question isn't it?

      Perception is in the eye of the worshipper.

      How many people are trying to sell products as an 'expert' but have just started and are regurgitating the same old phrases that they have been taught by a GURU that has done it?

      If they make enough money duplicating these methods does this become a self fulfilling prophecy and they become a GURU?

      Is that the hope that the Gurus prey on?
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author RMC
        The term guru as it's been used in the MMO niche is a dated and dirty word, corrupted by the forces and evolution of the MMO market, and a few crafty marketers recognized the trend and pushed it harder to become something bad.

        I'm bringing the era of the new guru, and pushing it hard. I'm encouraging and looking for people that are out to really help people, not blast promo's every day, and genuinely be responsible marketers. The folks taking serious action, being responsible, and getting results. That's what a guru should be. That's what I teach.
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      • Profile picture of the author kswr123
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        I'm sure there are a handful of people who think of me as a guru (until I stop paying them LOL), but it doesn't make me a legend (except in my own mind). There are literally countless people out there who have out-performed the IM Gurus as we call them that you'll never hear of.
        Right. I am inclined to think of yoou as a guru from your helpful software. It has helped MY business. And yet, I had NEVER heard of your before I came to this forum. The same with Waggsy, Bev C, Riley and countless others.

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        It's all subjective to me at least - the Gurus I follow are probably different than the ones yourself and others do.
        I guess this might be considered to be a good step. Guru is not something which you can call yourself, only something which others can call you. I might not consider myself a 'skype' guru (to take the first thing that came into my head) but then again, I have helped countless people set up on it.

        Similarly, in your local area you can be an IM guru and sell offline gold packages to people. And all youd need to do is buy a WSO from Maria G or Myself or others...
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  • Profile picture of the author Desmond Ong
    Corey Rudl, John Reese, Jeff Walker, Ryan Deiss and Frank Kern are legends in my mind personally...

    Why? These people help me to improve my business so much that they deserved to be called "guru" in my own opinion.

    All you need to remember is that these people are same, normal people like us too. They are just a little better than us in business.

    Cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
      To answer your question, in my book to be a guru, you would need to "walk the walk" with proven success. You would need to be a great teacher. Plus, you would need to have people advocating the status for you, not just you trying to claim it.


      I guess my question is, what can you do to DESERVE the label? Do you only have to be a teacher? For example, many of us have become 'teachers' in random niches, putting up articles and blogs for all sorts of topics. Could we be gurus in those catagories? For example, if I tell someone how to live green, but I am churning through 3 tonnes of coal a day, can I be labelled a 'guru'?
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    • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
      Originally Posted by Desmond Ong View Post

      Corey Rudl, John Reese, Jeff Walker, Ryan Deiss and Frank Kern are legends in my mind personally...

      Why? These people help me to improve my business so much that they deserved to be called "guru" in my own opinion.

      All you need to remember is that these people are same, normal people like us too. They are just a little better than us in business.

      Cheers
      Desmond, that is good list, I have met several of them in person and many other top Internet Marketers. They are all just guys like you and me. They just started a few years ahead of many of us.

      There is also plenty of room at the top for more gurus and expert internet marketers. It depends greatly on your mindset and how hard you work on learning. I suggest buying, enrolling and learning from all these top guys. Follow and copy what they do, then brand yourself as a leader in your industry. If that's what you want...its not for everyone
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  • Profile picture of the author pavionjsl
    I love the threads I run into from time to time from the real IM money makers. I am amazed at how much time and effort it takes to have any success in IM and the so called gur's supposedly have the time to develope all these systems that are supposed to be successful. A true guru in my mind gives more then he gets.
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  • Profile picture of the author Edk
    I think it's useful to get away from this Guru thing all together. It can be a sly term of abuse. It's for each of to do due diligence. One for sure gets better at this at time goes by. The faster the better!
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    First off. Let me just say, I think the term "GURU" in this niche is massively flattering for those guys, and an insult to others who lay down twice as good content in half the time...

    Anyways.

    I'm gonna answer:

    Both, None of teh above, and a whole lot more



    Anybody within this niche who is considered a "GURU", is an independent entity... a single man, to be assessed on his own merits (or lack thereof)...

    "The GURU's" might be connected and associated by this moniker... but my opinion of them is based on my personal experience of each individual.

    Some of them are wastin', others are really hittin' home runs...

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author Todd S
    Guru - is one who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others.

    I think if you look for the "Guru" who uses that knowledge to guide others you will find someone who you can trust.

    I also have bought a few of the "programs" offered out there and have been disappointed by some and learned from others. But the best info I've found is right here in this forum, bar none.
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  • Profile picture of the author trafficcoach
    Yes i agree the best info you can find is right here on the warrior forum,the name guru just basically means "THE ONE WHO KNOWS MORE AND THE ONE WHO GOT IT RIGHT" But you also get alot of wannabe "GURU`S" out there .
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  • Profile picture of the author kswr123
    Wicked responses guys.

    Ok - so how about this:

    What does it take for one to be a guru OUTSIDE of IM.

    For example, I might have a degree, or be a teacher. I may have written a lot of books, etc.

    Perhaps if we can suss the general guru label, we can suss who deserves it within IM.

    Mubarak
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  • Profile picture of the author knowwow
    Being influential doesn't necessarily make you a guru I guess, but looking for instance at what these people have done to get to where they are can give some ideas:

    The 50 Most Important People on the Web - PCWorld

    What I would have in a must-have list is at least a "good" level of presentation skills. Ideas may not help anyone if you fail to present them well (Kant is another topic).

    Charisma would also help and Seth Godin says that it comes with being a leader, not the other way around. I think I agree.

    Oh, actually, the whole discussion around "the Tribe" Seth Godin talks about is relevant to this. One can be a guru among people who are interested in Ukranian Folk Dance or interested in limited edition sneakers or else... Check the book and the blog) and youtube presentations out. He seems to be repeating himself but that is because he follows a similar outline presenting his ideas in many different events.

    -Necati
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem View Post

    GURUS - Are they real IM legends OR just newbie exploiters?
    I eagerly downloaded my new $37 tutorial, millionaires are made from this stuff , All i needed to do was shake n stir and a whole new life style was waiting to pour out of the box. So it told me on the packet.

    I unwrapped it ever so careful, it was full of videos and a real life pdf, it was better than being a kid at Christmas. The excitement had my belly in butterflies for i now held the secret.

    I read the first few pages and was overwhelmed with excitement, then i waited, ?

    And i waited and in total i waited a full seven days, but there was something wrong, I could tell because my bank account was not filling with riches as had been promised by day 3 ?

    I then wondered if it was broken and as I re read the packet of dreams it mentioned in small writing i needed to work for this to happen, how can this be ? the penny dropped it was just newbie exploiters.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
    Mubarak,

    This is a great question and one that is rather philosophical. The question of whether all gurus are baby-eaters is not a new one...people always seem to have beef with them.

    But first, we have to define what an IM guru is. Are they a bunch of people with great knowledge and wisdom? Are they just a bunch of people that make piles of money online? Are there IM gurus who are both wise and filthy rich? Do all gurus have to be well-known (i.e. not underground marketers)?

    To some people, any one of us would seem like a marketing guru. To others, we might seem like a bunch of amateurs (good movie btw ). It's all relative.

    The term "guru" has lost its meaning within the IM world. Some use it in the derogatory sense (you filthy guru!), others use it to describe a way of doing business (guru marketing), while others yet use the term to describe what they perceive to be the top experts in our industry.

    I don't know what the word means, so I wouldn't be able to clearly answer the question in the title without overgeneralizing. We all know for a fact that some of the people that the general IM populace considers as gurus are for real. Perhaps it can be argued that other gurus are newbie exploiters. But then, can't it then be argued that these people aren't in fact gurus because gurus are by definition NOT bad people? Wouldn't that therefore make ALL IM gurus "real" IM gurus?

    Gaaaaah.

    Curtis
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  • Profile picture of the author kswr123
    Exactly Curtis.

    In my opinion, the real GENERAL gurus (not personal gurus, but people that we would all consider to have made 'it') are those who dont ask for the title. People on this foprum are a good example.

    But, I dont really want to call them gurus beacause it has become a dirty word in some respects.

    How about 'IM geniuses' ?

    Mubarak
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Upon very little contemplation I've decided that in the broadest sense the word "guru" is a meaningless term because it's totally subjective to the person using it. Some use it in a derogatory way, some in an almost worshipful way. One person's guru is another person's faker.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    The most useful things I know about marketing were learned from Don Lapre.

    People generally think "con man" or "scammer" when they think of him. Not me. I learned a lot of great things from him, have the utmost respect for him, and have actually made money with his systems - so they're not just a bunch of garbage, like so many people want to claim.

    So is Don Lapre a guru? Depends on who you ask. I'd say so. The man taught me all my most important lessons about marketing, and is responsible for a lot of my successes in and out of the IM field. But there are plenty of people who claim to have been scammed or exploited by his products, for some reason. I don't understand why. You had the same choices I did. Why is it Don's fault you made stupid ones?
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  • Profile picture of the author kswr123
    Dennis, Id have to agree - but then there is not much debate is there

    If Guru is personal, how can we justify people BRANDING themselves as Gurus, when in our eyes they may be a scammer, or as Cdarklok pointed out, a guy whose systems work for some and not others through fault of the user (btw, I have NO idea who Don Lapre is, and I just read a pretty subjective wiki article about him).
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem View Post

      Dennis, Id have to agree - but then there is not much debate is there
      Oops, just call me the Thread Killer.

      If Guru is personal, how can we justify people BRANDING themselves as Gurus, when in our eyes they may be a scammer, or as Cdarklok pointed out, a guy whose systems work for some and not others through fault of the user (btw, I have NO idea who Don Lapre is, and I just read a pretty subjective wiki article about him).
      If someone calls themselves a guru, well, let's just say the word "vanity" comes to mind. It's like calling yourself a prince - saying so don't make it so - it's a word best given to a person by someone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author macchiavelli
    The only reason why I am still on gurus lists is because im toooo lazy to unsubscribe from them all.
    Other then that I dont believe a thing a guru says...ive seen the money, know what to do and I act on it!
    No guru can make you take action!
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  • You could class all these IM'ers GURUS

    Someone who continuously churns out crap but repeatedly gets sales from newbies is a GURU at just that, getting newbies to pay for his crap because he has a name...

    Someone who repeatedly fails could be a GURU at failing over and over again...

    Someone who sells coaching, but actually gets people earning is a GURU at coaching and changing peoples lives...

    You could tag everyone's attributes to the GURU name, whether the attribute be good or not...

    Personally a GURU in my 'eyes' is someone who gives you material or coaching that if you follow and take action, does make you money.

    Jay.
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  • Profile picture of the author Profit-smart
    -noun1.Hinduism. a preceptor giving personal religious instruction.

    2.an intellectual or spiritual guide or leader.

    3.any person who counsels or advises; mentor: The elder senator was her political guru.

    4.a leader in a particular field: the city's cultural gurus.


    So, is a person a Guru if they sell 1 million copies of a horrible course? Well, they are - Their giving advice, albeit bad advice.

    Likewise, we have "Gurus" who never make a peep. "leaders" in our fields that is, folks making millions and not really getting involved with the community.

    Ultimately, I think some of the Gurus are prone to exploitation; Sure. But they also happen to be good marketers; even if they go about it unethically.

    I've learned some of my best marketing lessons not from buying a course, but through observing the way the gurus promote that course.

    Analyze the sales pages, dissect the emails, pay attention to the "Voice" the individual uses (The tone, the virtual persona they give off through their videos, salesletters, and emails)

    Ultimately, even a scumbag Guru who sells a terrible product is still a Guru - so long as they sell lots and lots of that product.

    We all, often forget, that marketing CAN be a dirty business. Now that might not make some of these guys anything but scuzzballs; but it doesnt change the fact that they are scuzzballs making plenty of money.

    Ultimately, I think it all should be taken with a grain of salt. Their is no course, that is going to magically hand you money - I suppose a good contrast would be a Well designed IM course, and a college education.

    You might learn alot, but its how you APPLY that knowledge that defines your success. I think most peoples biggest gripe with "Gurus" is that they often, make it sound as simple as "Throw up this website template, stick an affiliate link, and.. um.. go find traffic. Good luck with that! - Now go buy this next book so you know how to do that to."
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    • Profile picture of the author sjarry34
      I guess there are gurus out there, but they definitely make the majority of their money by promoting their own products. I mean if they were real gurus, then why would they share their "secrets"?
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      • Profile picture of the author kswr123
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Oops, just call me the Thread Killer.
        Will do.


        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        If someone calls themselves a guru, well, let's just say the word "vanity" comes to mind. It's like calling yourself a prince - saying so don't make it so - it's a word best given to a person by someone else.

        True, but then there are many types of Prince. The Singer, the Royal Son, the Prince of Darkness

        Perhaps then, there are different types of self-proclaimed gurus...


        Originally Posted by macchiavelli View Post

        The only reason why I am still on gurus lists is because im toooo lazy to unsubscribe from them all.
        Other then that I dont believe a thing a guru says...ive seen the money, know what to do and I act on it!
        No guru can make you take action!

        OUCH! I think that's kinda harsh, considering that a guru can be something that is personal to you (I might think that you are a Guru at something when nobody else does )


        Originally Posted by Steve Porcaro View Post

        I do not like the term "newbie exploiter" yes I am sure that there are many of these as human nature dictates.

        ...

        That being said most of them are not exploiting the customers however they are opportunizing the need!
        Very true - So, Newbie opportunists then?

        Originally Posted by sjarry34 View Post

        I guess there are gurus out there, but they definitely make the majority of their money by promoting their own products. I mean if they were real gurus, then why would they share their "secrets"?
        I think you need to read Ron's enlightening thread my friend:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem View Post


          Perhaps then, there are different types of self-proclaimed gurus...
          I'm afraid you missed my point. In my opinion, a "guru" is not a title one should give to oneself. It's a title of honor, and self-appointed honorific titles are no more than vanity. One can only make oneself worthy of honor, and let others do the honoring.
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          • Profile picture of the author kswr123
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            I'm afraid you missed my point. In my opinion, a "guru" is not a title one should give to oneself. It's a title of honor, and self-appointed honorific titles are no more than vanity. One can only make oneself worthy of honor, and let others do the honoring.
            Right - so no-one can be a self-proclaimed guru.

            the title guru is only something that can be bestowed upon you.

            But, then, lets say I shun the title but someone (with influence) brands me as a guru.

            Is it something that you can say that you are NOT? Can you REJECT the title?
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem View Post

              Right - so no-one can be a self-proclaimed guru.

              the title guru is only something that can be bestowed upon you.

              But, then, lets say I shun the title but someone (with influence) brands me as a guru.

              Is it something that you can say that you are NOT? Can you REJECT the title?
              Look, I've been called a guru before, along with other flattering things I'd call titles of honor. It's really nice when someone else honors you in that way, and while I appreciate it very much, I don't go around promoting myself as a guru. You don't have to reject anything, but you don't have to roll it out in front of yourself like a red carpet either.

              This is just my opinion. It has no value on it's own, it only has the value you give it. But to me, it's bad form to worship at your own altar. Let others sing your praise. When you do it yourself it doesn't have the same importance or impact. To me, it makes you look self-absorbed and small.

              That's just me. It only reflects my opinions. Your mileage may vary.
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  • Profile picture of the author jonnoryan
    It is like everything else, you will always get a bad apple in the batch. While some of these so called Guru's release new and useful information and products, others release such reheased crap that anyone in their right mind would be ashamed to put their name to it
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  • Profile picture of the author kswr123
    True - but, then, if everyone had a different definition we would not find one in the dictionary that, supposedly, applies to everyone.
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