Words Of Wisdom from a well Known Fellow Marketer........

Dennis, True, you didn't say it was bad. But even this post sure sounds like you think it is.

It's possible to interpret the words in a lot of ways, including your example. We have no way of knowing up front which, if any, is right. That doesn't mean there aren't useful lessons in it. One of them would probably be quite the revelation to a lot of people if they really understood it.

The funny thing is, you can bet with nearly 100% certainty that discrat missed the most important lesson. If he'd grokked it, he wouldn't have worded his post the way he did.


Paul

Hi Paul,

I noticed that he mentioned the 'thud factor'. Hey, I know a bloke who wrote a book about that

It's certainly a thought-provoking admission/blog post - like the way he casually admits to not giving a tinker's cuss (at the time) about inflicting boiler-room telemarketing on his customers (after already fleecing them) leading to $10k 'training', with a $3k cut for him, then laughing at them with his cohorts at seminars - but apparently, he gives a cuss now.

Well perhaps, if he's really interested in buying back his soul, he should contemplate a little more on the reality of what he did - he targetted and deceived the most desperate people - people who had probably only ever known the rat race and thought that the internet could be the opportunity of a lifetime. They thought that if they worked hard, studied furiously and paid high prices to tap into the knowledge of the best that this could change their life forever - they could throw off their chains and discover new hope - well that's exactly how it was packaged and sold to them, wasn't it?

Yet many of them simply threw their life savings at scam artists and lost any semblence of hope. Their last throw of the dice was a loser. In other words, people like him helped to take away their dreams and probably ruined any motivation and belief they had that they could make it on their own.

I wouldn't believe anyone who tried to tell me that they didn't really understand the demographics of their customer base who were buying internet marketing products through the last decade - not that he did say that, I'm just saying. But he did say -

I reckon many of these people were just typical, ordinary (for want of a better word) folk who had crapped out in crap jobs and wanted to better themselves - and like a pack of wolves, the IMers were waiting for them with hidden/forced continuity, BS and recycled, virtually useless outdated information - telling them repeatedly how to 'skyrocket' their income with 'killer tactics' and all the rest, but nowhere along the line telling them the harsh reality of crowded SERPS dominated by those who could buy their way to the top, aggressive search engines and affiliate programs with monopoly status and power and the overwhelming difficulties waiting for ordinary people while trying to fight their way through technology and software overload, in a small home office with constant family disturbance.

If Kelly Felix feels bad about what he did with his 'I'm rich, you're not' tagline that goaded and insulted ordinary people into questioning whether they were foolish for working hard at their jobs and thereby through a low front-end investment he sucked them into telemarketing hell and ruined their hopes and dreams - good. I hope that that feeling continues for some time, while he considers what an empty, soulless person he had become.

He is not alone in being responsible for killing/damaging the dreams of innocent, ordinary people by deception for a profit. He is in the fine company of governments, bankers, warmongers and lawmakers and many other bloodsuckers worldwide.

I hope that his profits have bought him all of the peace, happiness, love and satisfaction that money can buy. I really hope that he doesn't spend the rest of his life only ever coming across people who enter his life purely to deceive him and strip him of his assets and faith in the inherent goodness of humanity. :rolleyes:

Actually, the downside goes much deeper than that. But I'll leave Kelly and his kind, with all of their new found wisdom, to work that one out. A little hint - look at the world you have helped to create for your children.

You're rich, I'm not. Allegedly.

I'm not sure I understand why you would say that.

What's wrong with trying to correct something you feel is
wrong? Assuming he is sincere.

Doubt and skepticism are understandable and fine. We all
have our opinions and feelings. Some of us have apparently
seen similar statements made by others. Ok.

But the real bottom line is that we do not know what is in
this person's heart.

So I guess time will tell.

I don't think Kelly is trying to correct it with one blog post at all, merely beginning the process of correction (assuming he is really turning over a new leaf).

As Paul said (indirectly), he's "choosing again."

I am sure there is a lesson to be learned in the blog post. What I see is a lesson in how to sell your next product and judging by some of the posts here it is working on some people.

"Oh I have been a very bad marketer and screwed people out of thousands of dollars, meanwhile making myself very wealthy. Because I am telling you this all my IM guru buddies will not talk to me anymore.
Now because most of the stuff I sold in the past was crap that didn't really help people to become a rich jerk like me, I have decided to own up to the fact and now I have a new product that is totally fresh, in fact it is called Bring the Fresh, and this is the one that will make you a RICH JERK like me.
Oh and by the way it is only $500. I may also throw in an up sell or two to my fresh new coaching program."

Come on people, please see it for what it is!

Hi Hasan,

You're right, of course.

...and therefore, the lesson is that they need to ignore the cries of 'hater' and 'loser' aimed at those who would encourage caution and suggest a healthy, but measured dose of cynicism.

In other words, people need to see through these people and their tactics, rather than learning about it only when they're $10k lighter and the perpetrator admits that he was laughing at them all of the time.

It's not marketing or selling that I take issue with. That's an integral and necessary part of doing business.

What I take issue with is the glorification of heartlessness, turning people into numbers, targetting the vulnerable and weak and most importantly - in internet marketing - incestuously feeding off your own by selling them hot air. Every guru was once a newb.

On the internet, the only excuse for this is the lure of easy money through trickery, in order to avoid hard work. If these sellers had any real experience or skills, they could easily make their coin instead by teaching others to sell real products to 'desperate' buyers - with NO moral/ethical dilemmas. Millions of items are sold daily on sites like Amazon that 'do what it says on the tin.'

But instead they are drawn into the incestuous cycle of teaching others how to fleece newbies with yet more internet marketing products, while they bask in 'guru' status. And the more that they do it, the more that they encourage another generation of IMers to do the same and the cycle continues, until anyone who associates with the IM crowd (like us, here) find ourselves all wallowing in the same mess.

Hi Paul,

Yes, it crossed my mind that by association, I might be tarring 'that bloke' with the same brush - which of course, would be unintended and unfair and downright misleading.

Yes it's true, but as you said - it's not right. I imagine people like Kelly used that excuse many times - 'if I don't do this, someone else will.' And that is precisely how huge crowds can be influenced to take regrettable actions - 'safety in numbers.' Until the numbers swell to such a level that hardly anyone is telling the truth (those who do, appear to be deluded and are attacked from all angles) and it becomes the norm - and you end up with a 'new' industry like IM, which is then exactly the same as the old versions - dominated by the morally bankrupt.

In this electronic medium, those who operate without a social conscience gain an advantage - which is why spam pervades. And it's why many give up, feeling that their message delivered by ethical methods will be lost amongst the noise.

Again, that's probably true. In the same way that someone, somewhere, didn't die of thirst because someone gave them a can of pop and the small quantity of water content amongst the refined sugar and chemicals saved them. It doesn't make it a healthy drink though, or absolve the soda industry of blame for poisoning, obesitising (made up word?) and dehydrating kids en masse.

OK, but if we take the Rich Jerk ebook - it outlined the basics of affiliate marketing and threw in a few slightly deceptive practices as well, to give it some sex-appeal (if I remember correctly.)

On that basis, we could justify re-hashing any old info that's all over the place for free and using all kind of salespage tactics to sell it and back-end tactics for profit - and the 'you have to take the time to search for it, in order to find free info' excuse doesn't hold water - if it's rehashed, common knowledge that can be found on almost any forum or blog in seconds - does it really have enough value to justify the hidden print that allows follow up boiler-room telemarketing?

And by finding the info for themselves, people would gain valuable business/life lessons about independence vs dependency, initiative vs spoon-feeding, decision making/brainstorming vs following specific directions, establishing new ground vs following the well-trodden path, fact finding vs recommendation, leading vs being led etc.

I'm interested to hear your answer to this.

If you read any of my posts, you would already know that the reason I piped in is because I am one of his many happy customers. In fact, his is the only email list that I never unsubscribed from.

I got way more than the lousy $10 bucks that I paid for the ebook. Way more. Do I condone the way he made money? You mean by selling a dirt cheap ebook and free access to his forum? That's what I got.

I didn't spend another dime on anything, yet I have made that $10 back many times over due to the things I learned and people I met through his forum.

As for his coaching that he mentioned and his affiliate sales ... he apologized for that and offered compensation. I bought an ebook from a very well known marketer here and it was pure garbage and I paid more for it than $10. Opened it up and it had copyright 1996 on it and it was a fresh WSO. He didn't apologize to me for selling me outdated garbage. He's still selling that crap and he's still looked upon as a respected Warrior.

You question how I make my money? I sell my own products. You want to bash my reputation too? Go ahead. When I'm a happy customer, I don't mind saying so, and that's why I defend.

Hey genius .... you don't know what I get or don't get. I get Tiffany's product because I've spent several hundred dollars on them. But you ... glad that you are perfect in every way and have never done something IN BUSINESS that you wouldn't want us to know about. Roll out the red carpet ... I've rarely ever been in the presence of perfection. I'm in awe.

Man I'm ready, I've been Shimmying and working out with Gilad and Bollywood Bhangra dancing with Hemalayaa and Zumbaing and even yoga. :p But none of that matters, crazy beats bad any day.

Anyway selling something isn't the issue. Internet marketing, of course ppl are going to sell stuff online.

Looks like the issue is tactics. Like nothing wrong with selling the **** berry. But if you have forced continuity, use sneaky tactics, and don't let people cancel or even contact you, that's just wrong. (not to mention the ftc will get ya)

And you know what they say-"ditch the cable." Talk about overpriced.

PS: Some great posts by Chris and Sam. I don't think anyone is "throwing stones" but asking questions that deserve to be answered, especially to potential customers. Even the blog said "Be suspicious."

Hey everyone!

Wow, lots of passion on this thread! Pretty surprising to me because there are obviously a lot of great threads on this forum...

I decided to weigh in again because Kelly decided to bow out of this thread, and because I think that some of what he said on the Blog got a little bit (understandably) misinterpreted by some folks.

First off, I am Kelly's business partner, so I am biased. But Kelly's earned my trust through years of honesty, value and integrity, which I have witnessed first hand.

I also want to thank all of the folks on both sides of the debate here for the passion that's gone into each post because I don't think there's a single person here posting out of spite...

As in: I sense the palatable desire here for industry wide integrity, and Kelly and I both applaud that motive.

So even if you think I might be jumping on what you've said as you read my lengthy post here, it's NOT because I'm trying to humiliate anybody.

Nor is this reply designed to draw any hype to Kelly and my projects.

In fact, the reason I'm doing this is because we don't want to instigate or perpetuate any fighting (by cats or by people!)

The primary distinction that I thought might have been missed is that this:

Kelly's Blog post on his site is about an evolution in the way he does business and nothing more...

Some folks might have, again understandably, gotten the impression that since Kelly was in a very reflective place when he wrote that Blog post, that he was admitting to rubbing his hands together greedily like Monty Burns, the iconic corrupt nuclear power plant owner from "the Simpsons", and cruelly extorting helpless customers for every penny they were worth with an evil cackle, and then clubbing baby seals for fun or whatever :p

The reality of the situation, and I'm going to give you my take from what I personally witnessed behind the scenes, was that because of the Rich Jerk persona there was necessarily a layer of outsourcers or employees between Kelly and many of his customers, preventing him from getting live feedback on how they were performing ESPECIALLY when it came to his coaching floors and also somewhat with JVs.

(Though of course that's always somewhat the case with JVs...the best you can do is carefully research the offer and then follow up with your customers to find out if they are getting results...and nobody I ever met researched as much as Kelly, and I personally worked with hundreds of top affiliates...then after the research and the promotion, you make a decision as to whether to promote again or not based on those results. Kelly did this and the times when his customers weren't getting value he refused to promote again...even when threatened by his former JV partners with refusal to pay Kelly's outstanding affiliate commissions...if you read between the lines here you'll know who I'm talking about, and you'll remember that unlike most top affiliates Kelly avoided repeating his errors with unscrupulous JVs.)

As far as the coaching floors were concerned, I personally traveled to Las Vegas with Kelly several times as he surprise spot checked the phone sales floors to make sure that they weren't turning into "Boiler Room" situations...and he repeatedly secret shopped his own sales floors as well (oddly enough he would make up a fake order and insert a phony name along with his cell number so that the salesman wouldn't know, and he would listen to their "pitch").

When Kelly found abuse, just like with the JV situation, he would fire the phone coaching sales floor and start from scratch.

That said, as he mentioned in his Blog post, Kelly was still highly dissatisfied with the outcome in too many cases, and was constantly bothered by his lack of direct 1-on-1 feedback with his customers.

He was totally sure of the value of his Rich Jerk ebook because he had personally seen so much success from it both in his Rich Jerk forum and from customers he spoke with one on one. But he started to realize that the disconnect between himself and the coaching situation BECAUSE the Internet really is such a golden opportunity for folks to build legitimate organized businesses, and there was no reason not to take things to the next level...

While Kelly didn't have authority to "pull the plug" or call all of the shots with the Rich Jerk situation, because there were other investors, who together could assert majority control over the business, he did work very hard to assure quality...and in a move that I greatly admired, when he realized that there wasn't any way for him to bring things up to the standards that he envisioned, he silently bowed out of major involvement and began anew with a blank slate to help evolve the way Internet marketing is taught...including creating a personal one-on-one situation between himself and his new clients.

This evolution with Bring the Fresh removed all of the barriers for Kelly to get raw feedback from his customers, and put him in a position to provide not only encouragement but an "over the shoulder" walkthrough of the live businesses that he's currently building for his customers.

We're now very proud of the success that our new customers have had...for instance one of our newest BTF customers now boasts the #1 Google ranking for a search term that has 22,800,000 competing pages and an average PPC price of $5...after 3 weeks with us!

(And that's after the same customer bought a prominent $800 per month SEO training program that only allowed him to pick up a few longtail keyword terms before he gave up.)

Kelly is very proud for the success that his Rich Jerk customers had, both from his Rich Jerk ebook, and from those folks who did succeed with the affiliate and coaching offers he promoted.

And he made an open offer right here in this Warrior thread for folks who felt like they may have been "burned" by those coaching or JV offers to enjoy lifetime membership with us at Bring the Fresh on the house.

(Interestingly only one person has thus far taken us up on that offer, so it may be that the "issues" with those programs might have been a bit more mild then Kelly initially imagined...or it could be that word hasn't spread yet. Regardless we'll continue to cheerfully honor Kelly's offer.)

On a candid note it's been a joy for me to be Kelly's close friend and business partner.

Kelly's not just a smart and funny business mind, but he's one of the best friends I've ever had, and he's a loving and playful father to two joy-filled kids.

He's also the most raw and honest person I've ever known...

...The first time I ever talked to him at a party that somehow turned into a JV mastermind 5 years ago, I asked him how big his list was...and he said "Who cares, everyone lies anyway."

I was hooked on the spot!

...But that said, it's very understandable to me when some folks mistake his raw honesty as being the actions of a man on death row who only has a short time to live and wants to make his peace! But I've actually found his honesty to be so refreshing once you get to know him that now I can't imagine life without it.

(Besides, what's wrong with living like you were dying?)

One thing for folks who haven't gotten to know Kelly just yet:

He's got a sharp wit and he's a true sarcastic.

As in: the Rich Jerk was a joke. Kelly didn't think he was better than anybody else. He was poking fun at all of the Tom Vu clones out there on the Internet.

Undoubtedly some folks will read this post and still feel riled up, and I accept and respect that.

Kelly's sense of humor isn't for everyone...and everyone who ends up loving Kelly as I love him doesn't necessarily start off that way.

I also think that it's hard for some folks to accept that Kelly's Blog really is "off the cuff" and that he didn't plan any of it, including the post that has so many folks feelin' froggy here today =)

I noticed, as an example, that somebody here thought they were calling Kelly out because he said in that Blog post that you should be "suspicious of launches" and that he also pointed out on our BringTheFresh blog that I've been behind the scenes of many of the biggest launches, because they found the two ideas contradictory.

But I'm in an evolution too, and one of the things I told Kelly...or maybe it was what he told me, I can't remember any more...was that we wanted no part of scarcity based launches anymore because while the excitement and passion that they breed is, well exciting...there are a number of side effects for prospects and customers that we weren't willing to repeat.

That's why we "soft launched" BTF with zero scarcity or hype...because we want folks to take their time so they can relax and get familiar with us as people and with the value BTF has to offer, instead of putting deadlines or limits on things.

My main point is that what individuals are seeing with Kelly is an evolution and nothing more.

We've been in business online for a collective 20-years, which is pretty good for a couple of guys in their early 30s, and as we experience new things we try to integrate them into our business and into our lives...

A final example has nothing to do with online marketing, but with diet:

I know one guy who springs back and forth between eating loads of sweets and potato chips and sodas and such, and trying to go 100% raw food with diets...and unfortunately when he tells me he's on a diet I kind of get the feeling in the back of my head "here we go again."

Kelly, by contrast, has always taken relatively good care in his diet ever since his early days as an actor.

But he also continues to evolve his diet slightly every year towards more raw veggies, fresher more humane food, and cutting down on processed foods with lots of salt, sugar and the like.

The result is that when Kelly brings up a new recipe he'd like to try out, it usually lands on a plate in front of me within a few days...

That's a good parallel for the way Kelly operates in business, and it's one of the big reasons why I've chosen to partner with him and not with other folks who have offered to work with me.

The last thing I'll say is that, in the interests of keeping things down to a dull roar so folks can zero in on the many other valuable threads on Warrior, I invite you to write me a private Warrior message, or to call me personally if you have questions or concerns because while I'll certainly answer you in public here, it might help a bit to keep everyone focused on providing value to their customers in the online businesses they are creating with the help of other Warriors here.

=)

It's all happening,

Mike Long

858-699-2747