Words Of Wisdom from a well Known Fellow Marketer........

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Some of the the BIG Wigs here who promote crap should take heed and look at Kelly Felix's (Rich Jerk) latest Post at his Blog.

Wow, some real Truth to what he says. He hits it right on the nail !!

And I got a feeling this will stir many people up who are guilty of scarcity tactics, crap launches, 'guru-itis' etc...etc...
Lets see who it might do that to here !!
Just Thoughts (and why most marketers probably won't promote my stuff anymore) | Kelly Felix's Off-The-Cuff Blog
#fellow #feloow #kbown #marketer #wisdom #words
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Sounds like the rantings of someone trying cleanse his own conscience to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dennis,
      Sounds like the rantings of someone trying cleanse his own conscience to me.
      And that would be bad... why?

      Assuming, of course, that it's meant and acted on. (He does caution skepticism.)


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        George,
        Why do some seem to think that before they can bring out something good they have to insult Warriors, and the Warrior forum?
        Does it matter? Does that affect the lesson in the blog posting?

        If you really want an answer, pick one. There are tons of reasons that could apply. Could be just one, could be a bunch all at once. Look at the lesson, not the teacher.


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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Dennis,And that would be bad... why?

        Assuming, of course, that it's meant and acted on. (He does caution skepticism.)


        Paul
        Paul, I didn't say it was bad...necessarily. Just that it comes across like a guy that smokes for 20 years, quits on Monday, then on Tuesday starts lecturing everyone about how stupid they are for smoking.

        One could also interpret his words as, "I got mine now I'm ratting out my former partners."

        The OP made it sound like there was some great revelations on that blog. I don't think there is, thus my response.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Dennis,
          I didn't say it was bad...necessarily. Just that it comes across like a guy that smokes for 20 years, quits on Monday, then on Tuesday starts lecturing everyone about how stupid they are for smoking.

          One could interpret his words as, "I got mine now I'm ratting my former partners out."

          The OP made it sound like there was some great revelations on that blog. I don't think there is, thus my response.
          True, you didn't say it was bad. But even this post sure sounds like you think it is.

          It's possible to interpret the words in a lot of ways, including your example. We have no way of knowing up front which, if any, is right. That doesn't mean there aren't useful lessons in it. One of them would probably be quite the revelation to a lot of people if they really understood it.

          The funny thing is, you can bet with nearly 100% certainty that discrat missed the most important lesson. If he'd grokked it, he wouldn't have worded his post the way he did.


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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            George,
            Too heavy for me. Why are you trying to make me think rationally at 1:20am?
            May I suggest that there are better alternatives for leisure bed-time reading than rants on the forum?
            Flat on my back in the dark just me and my droid
            As a long-time sci-fi reader, that just about made me spit out my coffee. Sure you wanted to phrase it that way?


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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Dennis,True, you didn't say it was bad. But even this post sure sounds like you think it is.
            Hmm...well, that's one way to interpret what I said.

            One could also interpret what I said as simply being unimpressed with the post, or unconvinced of his sincerity, or even being indifferent...while at the same time hinting that there may be more meaning to it than it first seems.

            And with that, I'm off to bed. G'night y'all.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Paul,

          I noticed that he mentioned the 'thud factor'. Hey, I know a bloke who wrote a book about that

          It's certainly a thought-provoking admission/blog post - like the way he casually admits to not giving a tinker's cuss (at the time) about inflicting boiler-room telemarketing on his customers (after already fleecing them) leading to $10k 'training', with a $3k cut for him, then laughing at them with his cohorts at seminars - but apparently, he gives a cuss now.

          Well perhaps, if he's really interested in buying back his soul, he should contemplate a little more on the reality of what he did - he targetted and deceived the most desperate people - people who had probably only ever known the rat race and thought that the internet could be the opportunity of a lifetime. They thought that if they worked hard, studied furiously and paid high prices to tap into the knowledge of the best that this could change their life forever - they could throw off their chains and discover new hope - well that's exactly how it was packaged and sold to them, wasn't it?

          Yet many of them simply threw their life savings at scam artists and lost any semblence of hope. Their last throw of the dice was a loser. In other words, people like him helped to take away their dreams and probably ruined any motivation and belief they had that they could make it on their own.

          I wouldn't believe anyone who tried to tell me that they didn't really understand the demographics of their customer base who were buying internet marketing products through the last decade - not that he did say that, I'm just saying. But he did say -

          Rarely did I check up on any of those individual customers or receive a glowing testimonial about the coaching. But I didn't care.
          I reckon many of these people were just typical, ordinary (for want of a better word) folk who had crapped out in crap jobs and wanted to better themselves - and like a pack of wolves, the IMers were waiting for them with hidden/forced continuity, BS and recycled, virtually useless outdated information - telling them repeatedly how to 'skyrocket' their income with 'killer tactics' and all the rest, but nowhere along the line telling them the harsh reality of crowded SERPS dominated by those who could buy their way to the top, aggressive search engines and affiliate programs with monopoly status and power and the overwhelming difficulties waiting for ordinary people while trying to fight their way through technology and software overload, in a small home office with constant family disturbance.

          If Kelly Felix feels bad about what he did with his 'I'm rich, you're not' tagline that goaded and insulted ordinary people into questioning whether they were foolish for working hard at their jobs and thereby through a low front-end investment he sucked them into telemarketing hell and ruined their hopes and dreams - good. I hope that that feeling continues for some time, while he considers what an empty, soulless person he had become.

          He is not alone in being responsible for killing/damaging the dreams of innocent, ordinary people by deception for a profit. He is in the fine company of governments, bankers, warmongers and lawmakers and many other bloodsuckers worldwide.

          I hope that his profits have bought him all of the peace, happiness, love and satisfaction that money can buy. I really hope that he doesn't spend the rest of his life only ever coming across people who enter his life purely to deceive him and strip him of his assets and faith in the inherent goodness of humanity. :rolleyes:

          But what happens to marketers who sell in a competitive mindset, through fear tactics, false scarcity, and rationalization, is that they are putting it out there to the world that they expect to live in that kind of world themselves. Where they too should live in fear. Where they too should expect to be sold with lies, and treated as sheep. Where they too should fear that their money will disappear any day now, when they are "found out".
          Actually, the downside goes much deeper than that. But I'll leave Kelly and his kind, with all of their new found wisdom, to work that one out. A little hint - look at the world you have helped to create for your children.

          You're rich, I'm not. Allegedly.
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    • Profile picture of the author rjaf
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Sounds like the rantings of someone trying cleanse his own conscience to me.
      I think the same. I'd never heard of the guy, so all I see is:

      1. I did crap things.

      2. Now I'm sorry about it.

      Yawn.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Sounds like the rantings of someone trying cleanse his own conscience to me.

      Yes, it does. But there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
      wrong with making an admission of guilt, accepting it, and then
      trying to make things right.

      It's especially more difficult to do it, publicly.

      Nothing wrong with cleansing one's conscience if it leads to better
      or higher ideals, thinking, or living.
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      • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        Yes, it does. But there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
        wrong with making an admission of guilt, accepting it, and then
        trying to make things right.

        It's especially more difficult to do it, publicly.

        Nothing wrong with cleansing one's conscience if it leads to better
        or higher ideals, thinking, or living.
        But there is something wrong with trying to correct years of mischief (I don't know anything about RJ...or KF rather) with a piddly little blog post.

        Imagine if Tiger Woods published a 500-word blog post instead of calling a news conference? Haha...
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        • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
          Originally Posted by CurtisN View Post

          But there is something wrong with trying to correct years of mischief
          I'm not sure I understand why you would say that.

          What's wrong with trying to correct something you feel is
          wrong? Assuming he is sincere.

          Doubt and skepticism are understandable and fine. We all
          have our opinions and feelings. Some of us have apparently
          seen similar statements made by others. Ok.

          But the real bottom line is that we do not know what is in
          this person's heart.

          So I guess time will tell.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
          Originally Posted by CurtisN View Post

          But there is something wrong with trying to correct years of mischief (I don't know anything about RJ...or KF rather) with a piddly little blog post.

          Imagine if Tiger Woods published a 500-word blog post instead of calling a news conference? Haha...
          I don't think Kelly is trying to correct it with one blog post at all, merely beginning the process of correction (assuming he is really turning over a new leaf).

          As Paul said (indirectly), he's "choosing again."
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          • Profile picture of the author pogul
            OK - so w/ Bring The Fresh now up and running, is there any Warrior feedback on the program?? Is it the second coming? Is the personal interaction there? New information?

            Or was this all just hype for the new product?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        Yes, it does. But there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
        wrong with making an admission of guilt, accepting it, and then
        trying to make things right.

        It's especially more difficult to do it, publicly.

        Nothing wrong with cleansing one's conscience if it leads to better
        or higher ideals, thinking, or living.
        I didn't say there was anything wrong with admitting guilt. As the saying goes, confession is good for the soul, but I believe that's only true if it's sincere.

        I don't see where he's doing anything to "make things right" as you say. How does simply confessing you victimized people make things right? I don't see any refund offers to the people he screwed, or even a gift offer of his newest product.

        I don't even really see any real remorse, just a confession. Perhaps that's why the confession seems insincere to me - he admits to many sins but shows no remorse, offers no atonement, not even a simple apology to those he victimized. That's why his confession smells like just another ploy to me. It's calculated. It's devoid of emotional content. I have a hard time believing it.

        Then when he ends his post with an attempt at humor:
        P.S. Buy lots of stuff from me.

        Tags: hunky pictures of brad pitt, i like avocados, kelly felix, sex lies and videotape
        ...I'm even more suspicious. Humor is not appropriate if the confession is sincere, if you ask me.

        I hope I'm wrong, but when you've spent years victimizing people it's going to take more than one simple finger pointing confession to convince me he has repented. And yet, I do hope I'm wrong. I hope he is sincere.

        I also didn't like how the OP worded his original post. No offense intended discrat, but it came across to me like someone who found some sh*t in someone else's backyard and used it to point the finger at his fellow warriors. Maybe that influenced what I took away from the Felix post.
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        • Profile picture of the author ozduc
          I am sure there is a lesson to be learned in the blog post. What I see is a lesson in how to sell your next product and judging by some of the posts here it is working on some people.

          "Oh I have been a very bad marketer and screwed people out of thousands of dollars, meanwhile making myself very wealthy. Because I am telling you this all my IM guru buddies will not talk to me anymore.
          Now because most of the stuff I sold in the past was crap that didn't really help people to become a rich jerk like me, I have decided to own up to the fact and now I have a new product that is totally fresh, in fact it is called Bring the Fresh, and this is the one that will make you a RICH JERK like me.
          Oh and by the way it is only $500. I may also throw in an up sell or two to my fresh new coaching program."

          Come on people, please see it for what it is!
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          • Profile picture of the author EdmondDantes
            Jesus went to unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not.] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stopped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard [it] being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

            John 8:1-11 (KJV)
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Why do some seem to think that before they can bring out something good they have to insult Warriors, and the Warrior forum. I haven't even even read the info from the link yet, but, hey, why insult people here. If it's so bad... why even bother....

    George Wright

    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Some of the the BIG Wigs here who promote crap should take heed and look at Kelly Felix's (Rich Jerk) latest Post at his Blog.

    Wow, some real Truth to what he says. He hits it right on the nail !!

    And I got a feeling this will stir many people up who are guilty of scarcity tactics, crap launches, 'guru-itis' etc...etc...
    Lets see who it might do that to here !!
    Just Thoughts (and why most marketers probably won't promote my stuff anymore) | Kelly Felix's Off-The-Cuff Blog
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  • Profile picture of the author WriterNick
    Hmm, this is something different out there. =)
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  • Profile picture of the author Hasan Barbary
    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Some of the the BIG Wigs here who promote crap should take heed and look at Kelly Felix's (Rich Jerk) latest Post at his Blog.

    Wow, some real Truth to what he says. He hits it right on the nail !!

    And I got a feeling this will stir many people up who are guilty of scarcity tactics, crap launches, 'guru-itis' etc...etc...
    Lets see who it might do that to here !!
    Just Thoughts (and why most marketers probably won't promote my stuff anymore) | Kelly Felix's Off-The-Cuff Blog
    I just learned something new today. I never knew the real identity of "The Rich Jerk" ~ aka Kelly Felix (not to be confused w/TheRichJerksNet, although I'm sure there's a confusing backstory in there somewhere :confused.

    The whole "abusive marketing" thing turned me off from day 1; I remember thinking that the guy's website looked just like a cartoon version of Don Lapre... NOT a good thing, in my book. So Mr. Felix never got any of my money.

    But that blog post is really interesting. There's a LOT of value in that rant. Nevermind second-guessing possible ulterior motives. When was the last time you heard a (recovering) Big-shot IM Guru speak so nakedly about the naked greed and duplicity that corrupts this industry?!?

    "Words of Wisdom" indeed... now if only the newbies would take heed.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Hasan,

      There's a LOT of value in that rant. Nevermind second-guessing possible ulterior motives. When was the last time you heard a (recovering) Big-shot IM Guru speak so nakedly about the naked greed and duplicity that corrupts this industry?!?
      I've heard it many times before, in this industry and in 1000 other areas of life.

      Many fell for his novel but sad 'rude marketing' approach.

      I hope they have the sense not to fall too much for his 'confessional.' There is something to be learnt from his rant, but many people who weren't in his 'lofty' position were being attacked and derided for saying exactly the same things for a long time - by him and his ilk.

      In my opinion, the value comes from observing that 'something' has compelled him to write this stuff and try to actually help someone for once, insteading of just pillaging them. Could it be genuine? And if so, what is that 'something' that is so often undervalued and ignored in the seminars and forums of the marketing world?

      Or is it that the he's finally worn out the old Rich Jerk persona and like a typical chameleon marketer he's re-inventing himself as the honest saviour, purely to suit the changing landscape?
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      • Profile picture of the author Hasan Barbary
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Hasan,



        I've heard it many times before, in this industry and in 1000 other areas of life.

        Many fell for his novel but sad 'rude marketing' approach.

        I hope they have the sense not to fall for his 'confessional.'
        Hey, Roger~

        You're right, there's nothing really "new" about the "confessional" as a cynical marketing ploy. I'm very familiar with the tactic, esp. among the Prodigal Son/Tele-Evangelist types.

        I guess I was just surprised to see it in this context. IM Gurus are usually so full of swagger and testosterone. :rolleyes:

        Again, I can't truly judge Kelly Felix's soul. My point was only that the gullible, hard-working folks that you referred to would benefit from reading that blog post, if only to see the "Man behind the Curtain."

        We all want to believe in magic, and it's a little painful when the Wizard is exposed as a fraud. But in the words of the poet Kalil Gibran ~

        The pain you feel

        Is the breaking of the shell

        that encloses your understanding.

        An ounce of disillusionment is worth of pound of $10K bogus-coaching hangover! :p
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Hasan,

          My point was only that the gullible, hard-working folks that you referred to would benefit from reading that blog post, if only to see the "Man behind the Curtain."
          You're right, of course.

          An ounce of disillusionment is worth of pound of $10K bogus-coaching hangover!
          ...and therefore, the lesson is that they need to ignore the cries of 'hater' and 'loser' aimed at those who would encourage caution and suggest a healthy, but measured dose of cynicism.

          In other words, people need to see through these people and their tactics, rather than learning about it only when they're $10k lighter and the perpetrator admits that he was laughing at them all of the time.

          It's not marketing or selling that I take issue with. That's an integral and necessary part of doing business.

          What I take issue with is the glorification of heartlessness, turning people into numbers, targetting the vulnerable and weak and most importantly - in internet marketing - incestuously feeding off your own by selling them hot air. Every guru was once a newb.

          On the internet, the only excuse for this is the lure of easy money through trickery, in order to avoid hard work. If these sellers had any real experience or skills, they could easily make their coin instead by teaching others to sell real products to 'desperate' buyers - with NO moral/ethical dilemmas. Millions of items are sold daily on sites like Amazon that 'do what it says on the tin.'

          But instead they are drawn into the incestuous cycle of teaching others how to fleece newbies with yet more internet marketing products, while they bask in 'guru' status. And the more that they do it, the more that they encourage another generation of IMers to do the same and the cycle continues, until anyone who associates with the IM crowd (like us, here) find ourselves all wallowing in the same mess.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Roger,
        I noticed that he mentioned the 'thud factor'. Hey, I know a bloke who wrote a book about that
        Clearly another of those dream-stealing scam artists.

        Something to consider: If Kelly Felix had never been born, those same people who had "their dreams stolen" would have sold them to some other person with the same pitch. I'm not saying that's right or fair, simply that it's true.

        Don't forget that there have been a lot of people who bought "The Rich Jerk" and got their start in successful businesses by using what was in it. And, apparently, some of the people who took the coaching did well with it, too.

        There's a middle crowd. The people who, with some initial success, would develop the confidence to add to that and to build something useful and productive. Or, who put in a modicum of effort as a trial, fail, and decide that's the end. For the lower-priced stuff, it's unlikely that any one product is going to chase them out. They certainly have no business spending $10,000 on coaching. They're going to fail at that no matter what happens, because they don't have the experience or the mindset to make that work.

        Yes, even if the coaching was really good.

        You know I don't use or care for the kind of approach Kelly's describing there. That's not my point. The thing is, if we want to get the real picture of what's going on - if we want to get the most valuable lessons from it - we need to look at the situation as a whole. As it really is.

        Kelly's conscience, and how he deals with it, is his concern. Not mine. My concern is that people get the message from this that can help them the most. I've yet to see anyone state it.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Paul,

          Clearly another of those dream-stealing scam artists.
          Yes, it crossed my mind that by association, I might be tarring 'that bloke' with the same brush - which of course, would be unintended and unfair and downright misleading.

          Something to consider: If Kelly Felix had never been born, those same people who had "their dreams stolen" would have sold them to some other person with the same pitch. I'm not saying that's right or fair, simply that it's true.
          Yes it's true, but as you said - it's not right. I imagine people like Kelly used that excuse many times - 'if I don't do this, someone else will.' And that is precisely how huge crowds can be influenced to take regrettable actions - 'safety in numbers.' Until the numbers swell to such a level that hardly anyone is telling the truth (those who do, appear to be deluded and are attacked from all angles) and it becomes the norm - and you end up with a 'new' industry like IM, which is then exactly the same as the old versions - dominated by the morally bankrupt.

          In this electronic medium, those who operate without a social conscience gain an advantage - which is why spam pervades. And it's why many give up, feeling that their message delivered by ethical methods will be lost amongst the noise.

          Don't forget that there have been a lot of people who bought "The Rich Jerk" and got their start in successful businesses by using what was in it. And, apparently, some of the people who took the coaching did well with it, too.
          Again, that's probably true. In the same way that someone, somewhere, didn't die of thirst because someone gave them a can of pop and the small quantity of water content amongst the refined sugar and chemicals saved them. It doesn't make it a healthy drink though, or absolve the soda industry of blame for poisoning, obesitising (made up word?) and dehydrating kids en masse.

          There's a middle crowd. The people who, with some initial success, would develop the confidence to add to that and to build something useful and productive. Or, who put in a modicum of effort as a trial, fail, and decide that's the end. For the lower-priced stuff, it's unlikely that any one product is going to chase them out. They certainly have no business spending $10,000 on coaching. They're going to fail at that no matter what happens, because they don't have the experience or the mindset to make that work.
          OK, but if we take the Rich Jerk ebook - it outlined the basics of affiliate marketing and threw in a few slightly deceptive practices as well, to give it some sex-appeal (if I remember correctly.)

          On that basis, we could justify re-hashing any old info that's all over the place for free and using all kind of salespage tactics to sell it and back-end tactics for profit - and the 'you have to take the time to search for it, in order to find free info' excuse doesn't hold water - if it's rehashed, common knowledge that can be found on almost any forum or blog in seconds - does it really have enough value to justify the hidden print that allows follow up boiler-room telemarketing?

          And by finding the info for themselves, people would gain valuable business/life lessons about independence vs dependency, initiative vs spoon-feeding, decision making/brainstorming vs following specific directions, establishing new ground vs following the well-trodden path, fact finding vs recommendation, leading vs being led etc.

          My concern is that people get the message from this that can help them the most. I've yet to see anyone state it.
          I'm interested to hear your answer to this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Notice that this post doesn't name names. Just as Ryan Healys (sp?) blog post attacking the 'industry' doesn't.

    The formula seems to be attack the 'industry' - but don't say who. Look like your are saying something big - whilst being vague enough not to achieve much.

    The blog post was interesting - but the timing seems a bit odd - considering all the outings of 'insider info' that have been going along recently. As a customer of some of Felix's lower end products - I have to say, I have been happy with them.

    However, I've never seen his infomercials or purchased a high end product.

    Talking about greed and corruption in Information market seems to be the new shtick. Or to put it another way, white has become the new black for a while.

    In other words, I think this new mode of confessing is just as much marketing as the old model. Just a case of changing the game to keeps things fresh.

    I don't consider myself cynical at all, but when I hear the next person in line telling me 'what is wrong with the industry' with vague specifics or childish insults, I can't help but think that this is just the next angle.
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Sounds a lot like a Mass Control pre-launch confessional to me, a-la "I was a _______, but I'm just like you".

    I'm one of those who bought RJ (the ebook) back in the day, I'm also one who had the "boiler room" sales call. The RJ ebook was my tipping point... it did, in fact, spur me on to actually DO something. Thankfully, I was at that stage in my understanding that it was all on me, and that the magical Internet would not just throw money at me without my input.

    I didn't bother reading the whole blog post, so I'm sure the lesson (to which Paul refers) is lost on me, but I've got my own business plan, ethics and lessons to follow.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    The lesson was lost on me too I'm afraid I was more interested in the fact the Felix no longer owns Rich Jerk.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    Interesting blog Paul - thanks for the link. I'll look forward to some more musings from you!
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  • Profile picture of the author bevs86
    i can't find the wisdom in attacking someone,But i know a person who has the authentic wisdom, he is an asian, yes an asian, he knows a lot of ancient wisdom. He started small in the affiliate marketing program now he is in the league of millionaires club. He formulated an organanization internationaly it is called Teamvinh.
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by discrat View Post

    Some of the the BIG Wigs here who promote crap should take heed and look at Kelly Felix's (Rich Jerk) latest Post at his Blog.

    Wow, some real Truth to what he says. He hits it right on the nail !!

    IF that post was genuine (hey, it said to be SUSPICIOUS! ), then
    I hear echoes of a blog post I made two years back at Money.Power.Wisdom:


    Internet Marketing Influence

    by Dr.Mani on January 15, 2008

    Everyone involved in the area of Internet marketing and building an info-product business online progresses through several well-defined stages or phases. And as a broad rule, influence rises as one moves along the sequence.

    The Student

    Eyes shining with rosy dreams, heart filled with hope and fired by ambition, the newbie learns avidly. Anything free is grist to his mill - ebooks, reports, videos, blogs and podcasts.

    The Apprentice

    After a while, the student gets more serious and takes the next step. Realizing self-study has limits and that mentoring under an expert is more effective, s/he starts spending some money - and picking a guide to apprentice under. Follows step by step instructions, learns about building a business.

    The Worker

    Once the basic principles are learned, the hard work begins. Lessons learned as a student and apprentice are now put into action. In time, the business is set up and running.

    The Master

    The new business owner is occupied with optimizing various processes, testing and improving things to run better and more profitably. And then, maybe in expanding into new businesses, or replicating what works well in other niches. Steadily, getting better at it, s/he becomes a master.

    The Guru

    The master then moves on to sharing knowledge and experience with others, to help students achieve similar success - by tapping into the master's wisdom. S/he becomes a guru who can turn that mentoring into an additional income stream, selling 'how to' information to people who need it.

    The Philosopher

    Sometimes, after being a guru for awhile, tough questions arise, demanding answers. In trying to find them, one becomes philosophical. Or gives up and quits. Or keeps going on ignoring the questions.

    Maybe that's the real reason why you don't see many gurus stay on at the top of their game for extended periods. The questions get troublesome, bothersome, tougher all the time.

    A guru only has to bother about HOW to teach something to students. A philosopher worries about the WHY... and has to find a convincing reason.

    A guru charges what the coaching or education is worth. A philosopher worries about the value of that same training to the student... and about how s/he can afford it.

    A guru blithely uses mind-control marketing tactics to scare and seduce, with the aim of getting more students. A philosopher is more cautious, knowing not everyone is cut out for the same kind or level of success.

    A guru is largely in control of a highly profitable juggernaut. A philosopher is not concerned as much about making money as about making meaning.

    Not every guru becomes a philosopher.

    Philosophers have a lot of influence.

    But not always a lot of money!
    All success
    Dr.Mani

    P.S. - Be suspicious. Better, be analytical.
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  • Profile picture of the author AnneE
    I found the post interesting. But I don't know that reading it will convert anyone using questionable marketing practices (lies, lies and more lies) to mend their ways.

    What I'd really hope is that highly-successful marketers with pangs of conscience would provide information or making money online without selling your soul (or some portion of it) -- assuming of course that they now how to do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      When I read something like that post - I have to consider the source.

      It's the same old "look out - they are out to get you" and "I'm not a bad guy anymore". It's his blog so he can mea culpa all he wants.

      For me, it sounds like another "I am re-inventing myself" rant...

      I can't live that way. Not anymore.

      I realize this blog post probably won't do me any favors as far as getting my fellow marketers to eventually promote my "Bring the Fresh" video series, but in the end, maybe that's a good thing.
      Signature
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      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    To me, it just looks like a way to get attention for "Bring the Fresh." Rich Jerk has run it's course, he's found something new and it's probably getting a lot of views now with this post. Whether he's really sorry for past scammy actions or not-only he knows that. 1 in 25 people do not have a conscious.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
    Or is it that the he's finally worn out the old Rich Jerk persona and like a typical chameleon marketer he's re-inventing himself as the honest saviour, purely to suit the changing landscape?
    This gets my vote.
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  • Profile picture of the author Popstar
    If he's so concerned about righting his wrongs, why doesn't he give a free copy of Bring the Fresh to all his Rich Jerk customers? According to his post, they've already paid... literally and figuratively.
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I think he copy/pasted that from a post on Michael Fortin's blog
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Yeah I admire the guy for coming out and being brutally honest. To say he himself ripped people off and now he wants to do right...........is commendable to me in my Mind. I am not going to Judge as I believe in second chances and redeeming yourself.
      And regardless of the 'Messenger' here, what he speaks in many regards does ring true in the Industry.

      That being said I must admit if you have made 20 million dollars or so then it makes it a lot easier to be able to do this.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaveManTheCaveMan
    Banned
    Awesome marketer! He was in touch with the pulse of IM when he started rich jerk and he's reinventing himself now that the pulse has shifted.

    Great example of personality in marketing, how to stand out and separate yourself from the pack. In both forms, RJ and this new "avatar" he's created.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Thanks for sharing this Roger.

    Although it's obviously not anything new and if you've been around a while you can probably name a few current well-known marketers still using this model.

    It's one of the reasons I avoid talking at some of the events that go on - I would avoid them as an attendee because I know what's going on behind the scenes.

    I spoke to a well-known marketer recently who reminded me about an incident of another IMer running off with peoples money (this time he literally left the country with it) - these things seem to be a mere reflection of 'people'. Some people sell drugs and guns, so why wouldn't we expect some unethical marketers in the crowd? Anything that can be easy money attracts all sorts.

    The real issue I think people should take from this is not what these people are actually doing - any half-wit can be a faker, but WHY they're doing it.

    Someone already said - if one guy didn't take their money they'd go and find one that did.

    One of the big problems I believe the IM niche has is that because people generally come into it with no knowledge of what it's about - they very quickly and easily start buying in to all the hype.

    You know the old saying 'you can't fool an honest man' - well this is very much the same. These people are relying on human greed and laziness.

    If you were offered a house at a 'dodgy' price - you'd be very wary and do a lot of checking. When it comes to a few hundred (or even a few thousand) dollars - it's a lot like the reason for the current 'credit crunch' - people WANT to believe the lies - even when they know them to be lies.

    Many people came up with 'creative' ways to borrow money that they knew they couldn't afford to pay back (there was a good reason that banks didn't used to let you borrow more than 3 times your annual income), and entered into agreements that meant they borrowed as much as 7 times their income (or more).

    Now, you 'could' say that the money lenders were the evil ones (and I'm SURE that some of them intentionally mis-sold things, I'll leave that aside for now) - but there's no way I would've borrowed 7 times my income whether I could afford it or not - it's just stupid.

    So - back to the original point - Yeah this guy has his reasons for 'coming out' and seeing the light and I'm not going to knock him for that, but there really are no people out to get 'us' - there are just people out to make money and do whatever they think they need to do get you to part with it.

    If a newspaper headline read "sunny day tomorrow" - you might not take a second look. If it reads "hurricane coming" you probably will. The sad truth is that there are some things which 'most' people like to read, and anyone trying to part them with their money is likely to anchor their own messages to this mentality.

    If 'we' stopped looking for easy answers and trying to buy a dream for $7 - these guys wouldn't have a leg to stand on. If we ask for 'proof' or to check testimonials they'd be stuffed. If we just used our common-sense and our brain the way we do for things which are important to us and sanity checked our responses - they'd simply go away.

    I've been on the receiving end of some of the current really crap marketing funnels trying to sell coaching using badly trained foreign staff to cold-call prospects and read them the script they've been given - I even got several follow-up calls when I said I already pay someone for coaching (they wanted me to tell them who my coach was and were clueless as to why I wouldn't reveal someones details to them).

    I find that stuff offensive - but not surprising.

    The question people should be asking is - WHO does this? have they actually looked at the people they think of as Gurus and 'sanity' checked that appraisal?

    Some of the people that I've seen called Gurus were people I wouldn't trust my golf clubs with let alone my money or my future.

    There are some valuable lessons in you starting this thread. People should stop blindly listening to what others tell them to do and start using their brain and their common-sense to make decisions.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Phillips
    Very interesting article. It's pretty rare that you see a big guru have a genuine change of heart like this. Kinda makes you wonder what's going on behind closed doors with all these well-known gurus...
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  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
    Hi Andy,

    Thanks for sharing this Roger.
    There's a lot of rats around here currently, but credit where it's due - it wasn't me who started this one, it was discrat.
    Signature


    Roger Davis

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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

      Hi Andy,



      There's a lot of rats around here currently, but credit where it's due - it wasn't me who started this one, it was discrat.
      haha - Soz - pesky rats.
      Signature

      nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Admire him!!

    In that case I used to be a drug dealing, murdering, thieving, lying, womanizing, pig. Only killed 47 people though, only stole half a million dollars, only broke up 57 marriages (I was the Heinz of womanizers), lied under a thousand times (that I recall) and burnt the brains out of countless drug buyers...BUT:rolleyes:

    "I have reformed your honor. And it didn't take me 30 years like your honor said it would, but, only five!"

    Nice to know what it takes to be admired. Now I wish I had been a little more brutal since it apparently DOES pay off in the end!

    Believe me, I am no saint,but really now...:confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    If he wasn't selling "Bring the Fresh" he would not have made that post. It's a sales letter designed as a confession.
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  • Profile picture of the author KellyFelix
    Wow, I didn't expect that late night blog post to raise so many eyebrows. It wasn't intended to be my magnum opus, or a one-off, quickie soul-cleansing. I don't think a blog post is really capable of that.

    Oddly enough, it feels somewhat comfortable to be out there, open, vulnerable, and under scrutiny - as myself. It makes me want to deliver upon my promises all the more - knowing that I've been heard. And I really do appreciate the suspicion. After all, I asked you to be suspicious!

    Unfortunately, those who believe it was calculated, I think you give me too much credit. I've always said that I wish I were as smart as people think I am.

    Rather than address the concerns of whether or not I've truly "seen the light", I prefer to let my actions do the talking, and only time will help determine that. I'm looking forward to it.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by KellyFelix View Post

      Wow, I didn't expect that late night blog post to raise so many eyebrows. It wasn't intended to be my magnum opus, or a one-off, quickie soul-cleansing. I don't think a blog post is really capable of that.

      Oddly enough, it feels somewhat comfortable to be out there, open, vulnerable, and under scrutiny - as myself. It makes me want to deliver upon my promises all the more - knowing that I've been heard. And I really do appreciate the suspicion. After all, I asked you to be suspicious!

      Unfortunately, those who believe it was calculated, I think you give me too much credit. I've always said that I wish I were as smart as people think I am.

      Rather than address the concerns of whether or not I've truly "seen the light", I prefer to let my actions do the talking, and only time will help determine that. I'm looking forward to it.
      Kelly,

      I really enjoyed your blog post. As for cleansing your soul stuff ....
      Guilty of no more than many in this forum are guilty of. Just browse the WSO section to see how many unfounded claims, scams and lies are being told.

      The fact is this .... many people browse around for that one get rich quick scheme that will work. They're lazy and most likely nothing will work for them because everything will be just a wee bit too much work to get the results.

      I bought your RJ book. I don't claim that your book brought me success. The entire series of events was bought your ebook, joined the forum, met a bunch of cool marketers, got some great ideas and have been successful online ever since.

      I have worked my butt off for that success and many that bought your ebook did not. Did you steal their dreams ... heck no. Lazy people are doomed to failure no matter what they buy.

      So much self-righteous indignation around here when so many of the online marketing tactics that many people use would not stand up to scrutiny ... and I don't see them "confessing" their past sins and starting fresh.

      As for your RJ character ... I've always been attracted to "bad boys". lol.
      I understood it was a character and I'm not a stupid person. I didn't buy your template site or your coaching. People need to take some responsibility for the crap they will fall for. Believe everything that is written or spoken and you're going to get taken ... simple as that.

      I'm also enjoying the evolution to Kelly Felix from the RJ character. I will be reading your blog and wish you luck on the Bring the Fresh campaign.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Folks, those who have a problem with the blog post, let's separate the
      message from the messenger.

      The message itself is almost dead on the money.

      It is what it is. Anybody who thinks that this isn't exactly what's going on
      in this niche needs to get their head out of the sand.

      If I had said the same thing, everybody would be telling me what a great
      blog entry it was.

      Well...almost everybody.

      Think whatever you want about Kelly Felix aka "The Rich Jerk." I bought his
      original book when it was $97 and at the time...it was damn good. I learned
      a lot from it.

      More than I can say for a lot of the crap I've seen since.

      Yes, be skeptical. Be very skeptical.

      But more importantly...before you start bashing other marketers, make
      sure your own house in order.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Now I'm really confused...

        Is it Mike Long or Edmond Dantes?

        Did Felix not know what was going on in the coaching program, was was he constantly spot-checking and "mystery shopping"?

        And maybe, just maybe, people aren't jumping on the free membership offer because they don't want more calls from boiler rooms. Or maybe they are taking Felix's advice, and being suspicious of him.

        If you think back a little bit, you might recall a thread asking if RJ-style sites still worked. Coincidentally, Mike/Edmond and Kelly just happened to have a new program to promote.

        Wrestling promoters have been using this con for decades...

        How do you turn a villain into a crowd favorite? Have him attack another villain, of course. It cuts the other way, too. How do you sell more hero t-shirts when the fans already own them? Turn hero into villain, and sell stuff to the people who don't like hero characters.

        So it's up to the readers here to decide:

        Is Kelly Felix, aka "the Rich Jerk", a reformed weasel as he claims here and on his blog?

        Or is he the benign marketing Bhudda portrayed by his partner Edmond - oops, I mean Mike?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ricci Cox
    I always wondered who was behind the Rich Jerk. Now I know! Wondered why all the emails suddenly stopped from him (sorry, you) in the last few weeks (I was on your email list). All makes sense now...

    Fair play for coming out and being honest. Everyone deserves a second chance I say. We've all made mistakes haven't we...?
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Kelly,

      Wow, I didn't expect that late night blog post to raise so many eyebrows.
      I think you probably did.

      It wasn't intended to be my magnum opus, or a one-off, quickie soul-cleansing. I don't think a blog post is really capable of that.
      I agree. But it is an effective controversy powered buzz funnel.

      Unfortunately, those who believe it was calculated, I think you give me too much credit. I've always said that I wish I were as smart as people think I am.
      Classic. A bit well-worn though, that one. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to bring the fresh?

      From the blog -

      Be suspicious of push-button solutions. Be suspicious of products with names like "Underground grim reaper autopilot gold bar instant millionaire wealth generator." Be suspicious of anything that says "earn up to 8 billion dollars per second". I know it all seems like a no-brainer but people are actually still buying this stuff. Be suspicious of product launches. Be suspicious of cut and paste emails you receive from 42 different people. Be suspicious of anything that "everyone is talking about". Be suspicious of anything with a bonus or "downsell".
      You missed some -

      Be suspicious of leopards with changing spots. Be suspicious of products with no refunds.

      There seem to be a few confusing contradictions between the blog and the salesletter -

      The blog post revolves around slagging off guru tactics and also -

      Be suspicious of product launches.
      Prior to 2008 I considered myself "driven" to compete with every other marketer out there to make the most money, so that when we had our big guru masterminds, I could get my ego stroked by my fellow snake oil salesmen, and feel like I was "the man".
      Salesletter -

      Mike, on the other hand, attributes a lot of his success to having the opportunity to watch over the shoulders of people like John Reese and Frank Kern, working hands-on with them during their product launches.
      ...and you will teach your customers -

      Launches and Events: Mike has been behind the scenes of dozens of launches, and he's run them many different ways. He walks you through launch after launch, telling the real behind the scenes stories, in a nuts and bolts way.
      And on the blog you're saying -

      And here's an insight for you: at guru masterminds, do you think we talked about how wonderful our customers were? I wish that were the case

      Looking back... how dare I talk sh*t about my customers. As if I owned them and was doing them some huge favor. It's disgusting. And not only was there customer-bashing, but we literally complained about how new rules constantly made it tougher for us to sell people using bullsh*t tactics.
      But on the salesletter you're saying -

      While I truly believe most of the "gurus" out there aren't intentionally trying to rip anybody off, they do seem to get caught up in their own hype machine, and more often than not, they end up promising much more than they can ultimately deliver on.
      Huh?

      So this is the story -

      Part 1) a few years back your online persona is that of a rich jerk, and all that goes with it - (I'm rich, you're not etc.)

      Part 2) in your blog post, you admit that you actually were a snake oil saleman who used bull**** tactics, and you 'talked ****' about your customers with your 'fellow snake oil salesmen'. You allegedly made a ton of money out of it, not least by selling their details to hard-core snake oil boiler-room salesmen who harrassed them via telephone and tried to get $10k off them for coaching in order to make you a $3k cut.

      In other words, it wasn't a persona, 'The Rich Jerk' was real.

      But now, regardless of all the money you've made from your previous approach, you've changed completely and want to take the exact opposite approach.

      I can't live that way. Not anymore.
      What was it that prompted such a dramatic U-turn? Are you 'born again?' Do you have a split personality?

      Or are you just a very savvy, chameleon-like marketer?
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      Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    I guess, it's a sad indication of how geeky I've become that I was paying more attention to the skillfull WordPress customisation than his blog post.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hasan Barbary
      Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

      I guess, it's a sad indication of how geeky I've become that I was paying more attention to the skillfull WordPress customisation than his blog post.
      It is a very cool-looking template. I'll give him that much.

      Actually, that's all I'm going to give him.
      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    The best part of his blog post - LISTEN UP:

    "Be suspicious of push-button solutions. Be suspicious of products with names like "Underground grim reaper autopilot gold bar instant millionaire wealth generator." Be suspicious of anything that says "earn up to 8 billion dollars per second." I know it all seems like a no-brainer but people are actually still buying this stuff. Be suspicious of product launches. Be suspicious of cut and paste emails you receive from 42 different people. Be suspicious of anything that "everyone is talking about". Be suspicious of anything with a bonus or "downsell". Be suspicious of ME."

    I read this and I swear I want to scream. Yeah it's great that he's saying all this now. How much money has been LOST from hard working people because of HIM and those like him? I love the last line. I love it. And I am, Kelly - I am. I'm even suspicious of why you wrote this blog post. I smell a product coming on.

    And look at one of the comments "John" posted on this blog post:

    "While it is better than marketing with fear, this whole post is a cleaver marketing tactic in its own. Bad guy gone good who can now help you with his new product. This whole post is geared towards getting people to trust YOU and not others because you are calling then out on their marketing tactics."

    EXACTLY JOHN!!

    Unless they've been honest with you from day one, fear them and don't believe them. Period.

    There's so much slime out there you need to take a shower after working online for five minutes.

    Tiff
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    • Profile picture of the author KellyFelix
      While I realize a few people here may simply be drumming up controversy in order to direct traffic to their signature links, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

      Anyway, here is my last comment on the blog and i thought it may be appropriate here:

      ------------

      "Thanks everyone for your comments. I hung myself out to dry a bit, and it appears lots of people were more than willing to get the broom out and beat me a little... LOL. Especially on Warrior Forum!

      No hard feelings here though. I feel good about my decision to begin a new chapter, and I also still feel good about the value I've provided over the years via the RJ ebook itself, and the RJ forum - I've heard so many good stories about JV's developed there.

      It's the outsourced coaching decision that irks me, and the email promotions of a few things that turned out to go widely unfulfilled, such as Stompernet and Pipeline Profits. I feel like I stuck my nose out for those guys and they just didn't deliver on their promises. And that reflects poorly on me. But ultimately, it was my decision to promote, and I take responsiblity for that. I regret those promotions now, but unfortunately no one could have predicted the outcome.

      I also regret that the coaching, whether it was a $1k plan or all the way up to a $10k plan, may not have been worth it. I simply do not know, and perhaps I never will. I was told that buyers would receive in-depth coaching from Terry Dean's materials, but ultimately I don't exactly know what was delivered. That's because the deals that most marketers like myself strike with outsourced coaching work like this:

      Someone buys a low dollar info-product/ebook. The customer is then referred to as a "lead". Leads are sent weekly to telemarketing rooms in Vegas or Utah. The telemarketers call the leads and sell coaching packages anywhere from $1k-$10k. Coaching buyers are then sent to a 3rd party coaching fulfillment center that does calls and webinars with the customer. What I feel guilty about is passing the customer off to 2 organizations I didn't control - the telemarketing firm and the coaching firm. I literally have no idea if the coaching was worth the cost. I made several trips out to the telemarketing floors to make sure they weren't promising the world, but while the cat's away, who knows what they said. I only know I got 30% of the sale, and anyone could refund at any time, and many did.

      But most of all, I deeply regret taking my customers for granted, and poking fun of them with other big-shot marketers. My ego was out of control, and that disgusts me.

      In hindsight I wish I would have kept everything in-house, or on a tight leash with quality control.

      I wish I would have put a stop to the corporate greed that occurred with all of the owners/partners, myself included.

      And I wish I would have valued my customers a LOT more.

      I'm still very proud of the RJ brand I created. I entertained, and helped thousands of people better their lives financially.

      But for the past 2 years I've been in a different place. I haven't accepted one dime from any RJ sales in the past 2 years.

      And I've been working extremely hard on my latest project "Bring the Fresh", because all I want to do is make sure that it over-delivers tremendous value. So far, so good.

      I'm not looking to cleanse my soul here. I'm not looking for praise, or to stir up controversy, or to strategically "position" myself as some great guy. I'd just like to publicly apologize to anyone who lost money based on my actions, and I'd be more than happy to provide free lifetime access to BringTheFresh.com for anyone who got coaching, Stompernet, or Pipeline through RJ (whether or not you think it was a good value). Simply send me an email at kellyandmike (at) bringthefresh.com

      Say what you will. Be suspicious. Be mad. Be happy. Be anything you want. I feel lucky that anybody even WANTS to read what I write.

      I definitely have a lot of work to do on myself, and I'm going to continue doing that my entire life.

      Best,
      Kelly"

      ------------

      And with that, I am going to bow out of this conversation. I'm sure there are many more interesting threads that deserve much more of your attention on WF. Or flame me if you feel compelled to do so. It's all good. I have a pretty thick skin.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      EXACTLY JOHN!!

      Unless they've been honest with you from day one, fear them and don't believe them. Period.

      There's so much slime out there you need to take a shower after working online for five minutes.

      Tiff
      Wow, and I am sure you are this Angel who on Day 1 popped out of your Mom's womb and NEVER did anything that harmed anyone or made any kind of mistakes along the way. Gosh darn it, I think I will just bow down to you and head home and call it a day.

      Oh and be sure to NEVER trust anyone who has made mistakes or been dishonest from Day 1 , PERIOD.............I guess that demographic EXCLUDES about 300 million people here in the US !!

      Sheesh, gimme a break !!
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  • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
    So this is what goes on here nowadays?

    Make money, not drama.

    Except in Kelly's case where drama equals money.

    Good luck with your new product,

    Zach
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Totally different tone used posting here than on your blog. If this tone had been on your blog, perhaps fewer would have been slow to understand?
    Lord knows I am no saint, I just found it odd that in the post there was not even an apology. Here you apologize and offer recompose. Best of luck to you. Hope that you follow through.
    (It is ironic that many continue to choose 'the dark side', even after they learn enough to know it is the dark side. Now you know. If you don't choose the dark side now, you're head and shoulders above a few people.)
    PS-The quote was Al Pacino in Carlito's Way
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  • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
    I wonder if Mr Felix will be giving some of the income back to the people he "borrowed" it from?

    I see Mr Felix has thanked a few of the comments that seem to suit him or offer forgiveness.

    I wonder if he will thank this post for "Showing him the light" and helping him to repay ($$$$) his misdeeds?


    Sam
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TelegramSam View Post

      I wonder if Mr Felix will be giving some of the income back to the people he "borrowed" it from?

      I see Mr Felix has thanked a few of the comments that seem to suit him or offer forgiveness.

      I wonder if he will thank this post for "Showing him the light" and helping him to repay ($$$$) his misdeeds?


      Sam
      He borrowed what exactly? He sold an ebook. The forum was free. He sold other products as an affiliate ...or super affiliate, I should say. He sold or outsourced coaching products. This is different from what goes on in here in what way exactly? It's called Internet Marketing.

      He developed his own unique and highly successful style. Did he break anyone's arms to make them buy? No. Was he pushing drugs or prostitutes? No.

      You don't like his insult style as the Rich Jerk. Get over it. It worked and was highly successful and many people in his forum made money ... real money ... and the spirit of the forum was so helpful that bonds were created that made people money. It was a real learning experience ... something that the uncreative, lazy people looking for easy wealth don't bother with ... learning ... and doing.

      People who live in glass houses should not throw stones .... those who have never done something that they regret in their entire lives ... please stand up now and be counted. And of those who have done something they regret ... who has been big enough to admit it in a public forum. Get off your high horses.
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      • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        He borrowed what exactly? He sold an ebook. The forum was free. He sold other products as an affiliate ...or super affiliate, I should say. He sold or outsourced coaching products. This is different from what goes on in here in what way exactly? It's called Internet Marketing.

        He developed his own unique and highly successful style. Did he break anyone's arms to make them buy? No. Was he pushing drugs or prostitutes? No.

        You don't like his insult style as the Rich Jerk. Get over it. It worked and was highly successful and many people in his forum made money ... real money ... and the spirit of the forum was so helpful that bonds were created that made people money. It was a real learning experience ... something that the uncreative, lazy people looking for easy wealth don't bother with ... learning ... and doing.

        People who live in glass houses should not throw stones .... those who have never done something that they regret in their entire lives ... please stand up now and be counted. And of those who have done something they regret ... who has been big enough to admit it in a public forum. Get off your high horses.

        Are you blind to the facts?

        He admits he did wrong.

        I have no problem with his confession if it is genuine, I applaud it.

        But I do have a problem with people who justify it by saying it is Internet Marketing.

        Do you condone the way he made his money?

        Is that how you operate too? Is that why you are so vociferous in his defence? That is what you seem to be saying.

        Is it all about the money?

        Sam
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by TelegramSam View Post

          Are you blind to the facts?

          He admits he did wrong.

          I have no problem with his confession if it is genuine, I applaud it.

          But I do have a problem with people who justify it by saying it is Internet Marketing.

          Do you condone the way he made his money?

          Is that how you operate too? Is that why you are so vociferous in his defence? That is what you seem to be saying.

          Is it all about the money?

          Sam
          If you read any of my posts, you would already know that the reason I piped in is because I am one of his many happy customers. In fact, his is the only email list that I never unsubscribed from.

          I got way more than the lousy $10 bucks that I paid for the ebook. Way more. Do I condone the way he made money? You mean by selling a dirt cheap ebook and free access to his forum? That's what I got.

          I didn't spend another dime on anything, yet I have made that $10 back many times over due to the things I learned and people I met through his forum.

          As for his coaching that he mentioned and his affiliate sales ... he apologized for that and offered compensation. I bought an ebook from a very well known marketer here and it was pure garbage and I paid more for it than $10. Opened it up and it had copyright 1996 on it and it was a fresh WSO. He didn't apologize to me for selling me outdated garbage. He's still selling that crap and he's still looked upon as a respected Warrior.

          You question how I make my money? I sell my own products. You want to bash my reputation too? Go ahead. When I'm a happy customer, I don't mind saying so, and that's why I defend.

          Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

          Yeah genius they are PRODUCTS oooooooooooohhhhhh my oh my, oh my, oh myyyyyyyy!!! OH MY, OH MY, OH MY, OH MY It's a PRODUCT!!!!!

          The difference is, since you don't get it, is Tiffany does not use snake oil salesman tactics and I have never either.

          And as for confessing in a public forum is that for internet marketing sins or real life sins? Would you like the Warrior Forum turned into a confessional? Would you like everyone to make a post confessing all their sins and mistakes? Yeah lets all do that, starting at kindergarten.
          Hey genius .... you don't know what I get or don't get. I get Tiffany's product because I've spent several hundred dollars on them. But you ... glad that you are perfect in every way and have never done something IN BUSINESS that you wouldn't want us to know about. Roll out the red carpet ... I've rarely ever been in the presence of perfection. I'm in awe.
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          • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post


            Hey genius .... you don't know what I get or don't get. I get Tiffany's product because I've spent several hundred dollars on them. But you ... glad that you are perfect in every way and have never done something IN BUSINESS that you wouldn't want us to know about. Roll out the red carpet ... I've rarely ever been in the presence of perfection. I'm in awe.
            I know some things you don't get.

            If not using snake oil salesman tactics= "perfect in every way" in your eyes then bow your cartoon face on that carpet cause I'm perfect in every way in your eyes. You're the one that said it. I would rather not have something at all than lie, scam, or be sneaky to get it. Makes me suspicious of the tactics in your numerous WSO's. Be in awe but your aweness doesn't flatter me.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

              I know some things you don't get.

              If not using snake oil salesman tactics= "perfect in every way" in your eyes then bow your cartoon face on that carpet cause I'm perfect in every way in your eyes. You're the one that said it. I would rather not have something at all than lie, scam, or be sneaky to get it. Makes me suspicious of the tactics in your numerous WSO's. Be in awe but your aweness doesn't flatter me.
              Tactics? What tactics would those be? I sell my own products. They're pretty clearcut, unlike "your" product. You seem to be selling Premium Minerals under your domain name Diva Minerals. Does that make you an affiliate of Premium Minerals ... so would that be an affiliate link in your signature, since according to whois, you are not Premium Minerals. Don't worry. I'm not really in awe.
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              • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                Tactics? What tactics would those be? I sell my own products. They're pretty clearcut, unlike "your" product. You seem to be selling Premium Minerals under your domain name Diva Minerals. Does that make you an affiliate of Premium Minerals ... so would that be an affiliate link in your signature, since according to whois, you are not Premium Minerals. Don't worry. I'm not really in awe.
                You're very interested though, trying to look me up in Whois, visiting my sites...I have dozens more if you're so interested.

                And all that talk about Premium Minerals-does it bother you?
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

                  You're very interested though, trying to look me up in Whois, visiting my sites...I have dozens more if you're so interested.

                  And all that talk about Premium Minerals-does it bother you?

                  No ... they don't interest me. Just thought since you're talking about sneaky tactics that you should be aware that affiliate links are not allowed in your signature and your domain, divaminerals redirects to Premium Minerals, which has an affiliate program ...

                  Just saying ....
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Easy discrat, you seem as someone more than just a mere fan of RJ. Looks like you have a real investment here, you getting all emotional. How much were you paid to post this for all the traffic to the blog and new product it would bring? Probably even got a few sales for Bring the Fresh.

    And when Tiffany "popped out of the womb" Al Gore had not invented the internet yet. And she is one of those straight up marketers.

    But crap, I, like ExRat wanted to know what brought on this change. Was he really born again? Or perhaps one of those 12 step programs where one of the steps is apologizing/righting your wrongs. Although there was no apology on the blog. Oh well guess it will remain a mystery. :p And Tiffany, there is already a new product.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      :p And Tiffany, there is already a new product.

      Oooooh ... a product! Oh no, not a product! How could he be working on a product?
      Am I really in an Internet Marketing forum? What's that Diva link in your sig? It wouldn't be a PRODUCT would it? And that new email I just got from Tiffany ... would that be a product? Oh my.
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      • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Oooooh ... a product! Oh no, not a product! How could he be working on a product?
        Am I really in an Internet Marketing forum? What's that Diva link in your sig? It wouldn't be a PRODUCT would it? And that new email I just got from Tiffany ... would that be a product? Oh my.
        Yeah genius they are PRODUCTS oooooooooooohhhhhh my oh my, oh my, oh myyyyyyyy!!! OH MY, OH MY, OH MY, OH MY It's a PRODUCT!!!!!

        The difference is, since you don't get it, is Tiffany does not use snake oil salesman tactics and I have never either.

        And as for confessing in a public forum is that for internet marketing sins or real life sins? Would you like the Warrior Forum turned into a confessional? Would you like everyone to make a post confessing all their sins and mistakes? Yeah lets all do that, starting at kindergarten.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hasan Barbary
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Oooooh ... a product! Oh no, not a product! How could he be working on a product?
        Am I really in an Internet Marketing forum? What's that Diva link in your sig? It wouldn't be a PRODUCT would it? And that new email I just got from Tiffany ... would that be a product? Oh my.

        CATFIGHT!!! (Please, God, let it happen...)

        Just kidding.

        But sbucciarel has a point: this is an Internet Marketing forum. Selling products & services is what we do... at least when we're not too distracted by all the drama. Lately, the threads around here have been so spicy, I might just forgo my cable bill.

        "Saturday Night Fights on Warrior Forum TV", anyone?
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        • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
          Originally Posted by Hasan Barbary View Post

          CATFIGHT!!! (Please, God, let it happen...)

          Just kidding.

          But sbucciarel has a point: this is an Internet Marketing forum. Selling products & services is what we do... at least when we're not too distracted by all the drama. Lately, the threads around here have been so spicy, I might just forgo my cable bill.

          "Saturday Night Fights on Warrior Forum TV", anyone?
          Man I'm ready, I've been Shimmying and working out with Gilad and Bollywood Bhangra dancing with Hemalayaa and Zumbaing and even yoga. :p But none of that matters, crazy beats bad any day.

          Anyway selling something isn't the issue. Internet marketing, of course ppl are going to sell stuff online.

          Looks like the issue is tactics. Like nothing wrong with selling the **** berry. But if you have forced continuity, use sneaky tactics, and don't let people cancel or even contact you, that's just wrong. (not to mention the ftc will get ya)

          And you know what they say-"ditch the cable." Talk about overpriced.

          PS: Some great posts by Chris and Sam. I don't think anyone is "throwing stones" but asking questions that deserve to be answered, especially to potential customers. Even the blog said "Be suspicious."
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Easy discrat, you seem as someone more than just a mere fan of RJ. Looks like you have a real investment here, you getting all emotional. How much were you paid to post this for all the traffic to the blog and new product it would bring? Probably even got a few sales for Bring the Fresh.
      No your wrong...just a mere fan !!
      Next time I would be more careful with your misguided and ignorant assumptions as I ABSOLUTELY NO vested interest in RJ or Bring the fresh !! I just think it is an interesting topic and I do have to admit that I have been pondering the idea of joining ' Bring the fresh' down the road as I like what I have seen at Kelly's Blog.
      Right now that is it !!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
    ExRat: Awesome commentary, Roger.

    I think Kelly makes some good points. I liked 'em enough to paraphrase them, in order to help me follow through his argument.

    Fear and greed are eternal parts of human nature. Excessively fearful people can be manipulated with deceit. Excessively greedy people can provide that deceit, if it feeds their greed. After a certain point the greed isn't about money or what it can buy. It's about bragging rights with the other greedy SOB's.

    Lots of average Joes and Janes had fear of poverty, of "lives of quiet desperation." And they had greed for the lifestyle and "f* 'em all" attitude portrayed by Kelly's image. The image was false, but the scornful attitude to the "little guy" wasn't. Meanwhile, Kelly and his business peers had their own issues with greed and fear: fear of losing face by not greedily grabbing as much as the next guy, from greedy fearful little Joe and Jane. The reality ain't a pretty picture on any side.

    What you promote is what you ultimately get back. Even if the scarcity is a lie you tell others, you wind up getting tangled in the snare you set. And then the greedy people harvest some of the fear they helped plant. They hoped to sow only their greed and none of the fear. But in another memorable saying of that Jewish carpenter, you can't drop off one type of seed and expect to pick up a different kind of plant.

    If you act behind a mask, face to face contact is damned hard without ending the whole show.

    I think that captures the gist of it, am I on track?

    This is all a lot more deep thought than many people ever get to in their lives. Especially if their lives are consumed by either greed or fear.
    Great topics to discuss here.

    And I don't see the Warrior Forum comment as any kind of slam on this place overall, or on the people who use it thoughtfully with eyes open.

    I really do appreciate the suspicion. After all, I asked you to be suspicious!
    Proof that the persuasive power is still there, even if not backed by the mansion, fast car and faster ladies.

    Kelly, I admire your introspection with the whole new leaf thing. So the rich jerk site currently just uses a backlog of stock footage of you?

    There is a wide-open black hole of an unanswered question. Several posters here have commented, and I don't see the answer. And you asked us to be suspicious.So I'll ask this straight up:

    You were paid well to let your name & likeness be used to promote products & services, without any idea whether or not the offers were junk. This didn't just happen as an accident. It was the way you routinely ran part of your business, because it was expedient to feed your own greed and pride.

    Based on the image you portrayed, ordinary people sunk a lot of money - perhaps, their life savings; perhaps, enough so that it was their last hope at a brighter future. The money went into something that might have bamboozled them. Offers that promised a hand up to the moon and delivered a push down into the mud.

    Isn't it appropriate for people to want to see, not just an apology, but some active restitution to the "suckers" of the old venture, before offering their faith in your new venture?

    Your new venture may be entirely free-range, organic, healthy and tasty. But your last buffet included some moldy dishes that other cooks slipped in there while you ignored quality control. Shouldn't those who were hurt get reimbursed for their food poisoning, before your new restaurant opens its doors?

    I'm not sinless... but I have never once added my name to an offer of unknown quality by someone else. I've never accepted money to portray myself as a character designed to appeal to fantasies labeled as nonfiction. I've never hired a boiler room phone bank in Vegas, Utah, or anywhere else. I've never abdicated quality control for what I told people would be good for them to spend their money on. I've never built a business around greed and fear.

    In two instances, the rigors of caring for a cancer patient left me without enough time to complete work that clients paid me for. I expect to complete 100% restitution of every penny they paid me this year, with me eating ramen rather than steak until it's all paid off. And I'm also going to ask if they'd like to have me do some replacement consulting at no charge and no commission to try to make it up to them.

    So I think I am reasonably well qualified, not to throw stones, but to ask where there's the amends part of your apology. Without any indication of how you plan to make things right for people who were wronged, something is missing here. Until that's added, what we have here are words of warning, but not words of wisdom.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
    Ladies,

    With all due respect, take it outside.

    Or, better yet, drop it.

    I wouldn't be surprised, should this continue, if Uncle Paul were to put both of you in "Time Out".

    You are both above such petty nonsense.

    Respectfully,

    Elmer
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    • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
      Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone View Post

      Ladies,

      With all due respect, take it outside.

      Or, better yet, drop it.

      I wouldn't be surprised, should this continue, if Uncle Paul were to put both of you in "Time Out".

      You are both above such petty nonsense.

      Respectfully,

      Elmer
      Yes Uncle Elmer, you are right.

      I don't feel like going to the naughty chair at the moment.

      I'm thru posting here, it was originally intended to be about Rich Jerk/ Bring the Fresh but went off topic.

      Can I say she started it first?

      Anyway moving on...

      PS. From my understanding affiliate links are ok if you have your own domain name. No problem to change it, if it causes such a problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingSPY
    There are predators and then there are true givers. Which are you? "Humans are the only creatures on earth that will attack, harm or kill their own specie to benefit themselves financially".

    Happy Trails!
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    The most OUTRAGEOUS secrets of the Gurus ever created. Pick up a FREE copy of my FREE 64 page report today. "The Ugly IM Truth". It's Shocking, but True! Grab it now!
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  • Profile picture of the author Toby Lewis
    Remember they are 'just thoughts' and he is 'winging it'. Don't read into it too deeply, but I like what he's saying.

    As a side note, George "The Sniper" Brown got started with Rich Jerk...
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  • Profile picture of the author Toby Lewis
    Also, I really admire the people like Mark Ling (affilorama.com) and Sean Morrisy (sixdayweekend.com) that are all about the content. They'll never make as much money as the other over-hyped gurus, but they'll always over deliver.

    Sad but true. At least they won't need to blog about their regrets and the way they treated customers further down the track
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    He is stating what is known or surprising. I am kinda of tired of learning from people who are only selling how to make money online, but have not made real money online.

    I see an opportunity. This is GREAT news, time to shine. I did this already to build online 6 figure sites and may do it again with teaching Internet Marketing (which is new to me). In a industry where people dont trust anyone becuase of all the shady stuff happening, step in and give the people someone who is reliable, honestly and trustworthy with real information. Why not give people real value and give people what really works. If you do that you may make less money YES, but you will have life long customers. They will pay you for it, if its real.

    I got a WSO today which the person told me after the fact that it will only work if you use BlueFart & he would not responding to emails, customer service for a $10 thing is not included, you have to pay extra. I LOVE these competitors, they help us build stronger customers who will pay.

    Thanks for the opportunity here, I hope this stuff leaves the industry soon.

    Cheers,
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Hey have you heard that Coke is looking to bring out a new brand of water?

    It's not like all that other crap, and it it's good for your teeth...which should be important to you after all that sugar that Coke rotted your teeth with.

    Wait, the adverts gave the impression that drinking coke made you sexy and cool? Oops, guess they didn't tell you about the dentures you'd need to hold that look.

    I actually respect Felix in many ways, because his marketing was absolutely genius, and innovative...something which is not often seen in this seedy IM community.


    The problem is, a brand isn't that easy to shake. And further more, the whole "they are lying to you" thing, followed by a forthcoming pitch of a product which seems to give generic advice on things that will NOT make you rich...well, need i say more?

    The RJ ebook was funny, and a good marketing lesson...but not for its' content.

    The real lesson is to see how people sell into this market, not what they sell. Everything you need to know has been taught for free a million times, often in this small corner of the IM community known as the Warrior Forum.

    The real missing ingredient is your contacts, your interpretation of information and your current financial situation. Not to mention your ability and mindset to actually get results.

    Ultimately, I feel anyone deserves a second chance (within reason), but there has to come a point when you have to question the integrity of certain people.

    For someone who openly admits that he was essentially the "Rich Jerk" in real life, I think it warrants a certain amount of precaution before parting with your trust, time and money when this IM industry is packed full of "on the street" honest marketers who can teach you a heck of a lot more, for a hell of a lot less...
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    Not sure what the fuss is really.

    Rich Jerk stuff was pretty good, cheap as chips as well, IIRC the e-book was about $30, had a damm site more of value in it at the time than 99% of everything else. The forum was pretty good as well. Yeah it's been superceeded now by a country mile, but at the time , it really wasn't bad, had it been a $30 WSO , people would have raved about the degree of content. Trust me there's stuff sold on this forum every single day that didn't come close.

    Who cares about his "style", big deal, you either got on with it or you didn't. Either way it was a damm clever approach, the alter ego was huge at one point and will probably live on permanently in the minds of marketers around at the time, few others had such a successful branding operation.

    Whooa, suprise, marketers sit around working out ways to generate more dollars per visitor, call CNN. You really think this horde of sub 20 year old millionares all cross promoting each others stuff arn't sat on SKYPE laughing to each other as they refresh their Clickbank accounts?

    As for people "smelling a new product", you don't need much a sense of smell. It's plastered all over his site for all to see, barely hidden.

    So he outsourced some training via an affiliate deal. Big Woot. Happens all the time. Marketer "A" trusts Marketer "B" to deliver and Marketer "B"'s product ain't quite what it should have been.

    He promoted **** , call the police.

    For anybody who thinks this is an appaling crime, stop doing business with all your CPA companies in protest - right now, call them all up and tell them you refuse to do business due their ethics.

    Because if you don't think all the big boys had their own **** promotions and internal projects on rebills you're living in a dream world.

    Not picking up the phone yet? No, quel suprise, moral outrage on the back burner now?

    He's created a negative backlash and not really benefited at all.

    Made much ado about next to nothing - shows not every step even seasoned pros make is a good one.

    Would have been better keeping his mouth wide shut.

    The "I'm sorry, now I'm a good guy" angle , never pans out .

    Did you get inspired by Tiger ?

    Actions speak louder than words, even in IM.

    His post is quite blatantly designed to draw a new audience and new attention to his new product.

    Meh.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Kelly,

      I know you said you're done here, fair enough. But I'll point out a couple of holes in your last post regardless

      It's the outsourced coaching decision that irks me, and the email promotions of a few things that turned out to go widely unfulfilled, such as Stompernet and Pipeline Profits. I feel like I stuck my nose out for those guys and they just didn't deliver on their promises. And that reflects poorly on me. But ultimately, it was my decision to promote, and I take responsiblity for that. I regret those promotions now, but unfortunately no one could have predicted the outcome.
      If you were to go to the 'review' forum here, you'll probably notice that there are many people here who accurately predict the outcome of those type of programs - that's where all of the great flame wars occur when the gurus and their cohorts zoom in to defend their new launches in the threads started by their shills

      So I can only presume that either you did know what would happen, or you weren't doing enough research into the readily available feedback from people who have bought into those type of programs previously.

      I also regret that the coaching, whether it was a $1k plan or all the way up to a $10k plan, may not have been worth it. I simply do not know, and perhaps I never will. I was told that buyers would receive in-depth coaching from Terry Dean's materials, but ultimately I don't exactly know what was delivered. That's because the deals that most marketers like myself strike with outsourced coaching work like this:

      Someone buys a low dollar info-product/ebook. The customer is then referred to as a "lead". Leads are sent weekly to telemarketing rooms in Vegas or Utah. The telemarketers call the leads and sell coaching packages anywhere from $1k-$10k. Coaching buyers are then sent to a 3rd party coaching fulfillment center that does calls and webinars with the customer. What I feel guilty about is passing the customer off to 2 organizations I didn't control - the telemarketing firm and the coaching firm. I literally have no idea if the coaching was worth the cost. I made several trips out to the telemarketing floors to make sure they weren't promising the world, but while the cat's away, who knows what they said. I only know I got 30% of the sale, and anyone could refund at any time, and many did.
      Again - you can learn all you want to about what these people are like by using the review forum. Admittedly, a lot of the threads end up getting deleted, because the gurus come along and turn the thread into a flame war, which then causes a train-wreck and deletion.

      Basically, these coaching people know less about internet marketing than the newest newb. But they are highly persistent pressure salesmen and are obviously trained in that skill.

      From what I have read, most people wouldn't want to unleash them on their worst enemy. I've only been called by them a couple of times, back when I used to buy training products (like yours) but as an ex salesman myself, I knew what was coming, avoided it and made sure I was removed from the list and never called again.

      There have been a few comments about the Rich Jerk ebook costing $10 - I think I paid $47 for it, but it might have even been $97 when it first came out - unless I'm mistaken?

      Hi Simon,

      So he outsourced some training via an affiliate deal. Big Woot. Happens all the time. Marketer "A" trusts Marketer "B" to deliver and Marketer "B"'s product ain't quite what it should have been.

      He promoted **** , call the police.

      For anybody who thinks this is an appaling crime, stop doing business with all your CPA companies in protest - right now, call them all up and tell them you refuse to do business due their ethics.

      Because if you don't think all the big boys had their own **** promotions and internal projects on rebills you're living in a dream world.

      Not picking up the phone yet? No, quel suprise, moral outrage on the back burner now?
      Again, if you've read what these 'coaching' people are like, you probably wouldn't write it off as simply 'happens all the time.'

      I live in a country that currently has a huge problem because people have been conditioned to accept blatant theft from the relatively poor masses - (the middle classes, those who actually produce wealth through industry - stolen by those who have never actually been involved in real wealth creation) - they are too scared to even stand up and express their feelings about it. It's a big problem. And it's conducted by those at the top but mainly fuelled by those 'on the sidelines' (shills/stooges/influencers) who throw around comments like, 'it happens all the time, big deal - so have you never sinned? People in glass houses...' etc.

      At times like these someone has to have the balls to stand up and call them out when they use spin, lies and deception to hoodwink those who are not on their guard - that's what makes a properly functioning society.

      There's no moral outrage here about this and no need to put it on the back burner. I don't promote certain things on principle - in fact I dropped out of the IM scene on principle, after a brief dalliance. I have never promoted a CPA offer although I'm signed up to most of the networks, and did so before most people here had heard of CPA.

      I admire what Kelly did with the concept of the Rich Jerk - it's probably the most original idea I've seen in IM. And I respect the way he bats the criticism back and takes it square on like a man - which is why he's only getting lightly grilled rather than roasted alive. But I think he's still a rich jerk - a snake oil salesman. And I think he's still targetting the same people that he was laughing at before.

      There's no law against that. But there's no law against me pointing out the contradictions between his confessional and his product launch.
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      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Kelly,

        I know you said you're done here, fair enough. But I'll point out a couple of holes in your last post regardless

        If you were to go to the 'review' forum here, you'll probably notice that there are many people here who accurately predict the outcome of those type of programs - that's where all of the great flame wars occur when the gurus and their cohorts zoom in to defend their new launches in the threads started by their shills

        So I can only presume that either you did know what would happen, or you weren't doing enough research into the readily available feedback from people who have bought into those type of programs previously.

        Again - you can learn all you want to about what these people are like by using the review forum. Admittedly, a lot of the threads end up getting deleted, because the gurus come along and turn the thread into a flame war, which then causes a train-wreck and deletion.

        Basically, these coaching people know less about internet marketing than the newest newb. But they are highly persistent pressure salesmen and are obviously trained in that skill.

        From what I have read, most people wouldn't want to unleash them on their worst enemy. I've only been called by them a couple of times, back when I used to buy training products (like yours) but as an ex salesman myself, I knew what was coming, avoided it and made sure I was removed from the list and never called again.

        There have been a few comments about the Rich Jerk ebook costing $10 - I think I paid $47 for it, but it might have even been $97 when it first came out - unless I'm mistaken?

        Hi Simon,

        Again, if you've read what these 'coaching' people are like, you probably wouldn't write it off as simply 'happens all the time.'

        I live in a country that currently has a huge problem because people have been conditioned to accept blatant theft from the relatively poor masses - (the middle classes, those who actually produce wealth through industry - stolen by those who have never actually been involved in real wealth creation) - they are too scared to even stand up and express their feelings about it. It's a big problem. And it's conducted by those at the top but mainly fuelled by those 'on the sidelines' (shills/stooges/influencers) who throw around comments like, 'it happens all the time, big deal - so have you never sinned? People in glass houses...' etc.

        At times like these someone has to have the balls to stand up and call them out when they use spin, lies and deception to hoodwink those who are not on their guard - that's what makes a properly functioning society.

        There's no moral outrage here about this and no need to put it on the back burner. I don't promote certain things on principle - in fact I dropped out of the IM scene on principle, after a brief dalliance. I have never promoted a CPA offer although I'm signed up to most of the networks, and did so before most people here had heard of CPA.

        I admire what Kelly did with the concept of the Rich Jerk - it's probably the most original idea I've seen in IM. And I respect the way he bats the criticism back and takes it square on like a man - which is why he's only getting lightly grilled rather than roasted alive. But I think he's still a rich jerk - a snake oil salesman. And I think he's still targetting the same people that he was laughing at before.

        There's no law against that. But there's no law against me pointing out the contradictions between his confessional and his product launch.

        Very well said Sir.
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        • Profile picture of the author EdmondDantes
          Hey everyone!

          Wow, lots of passion on this thread! Pretty surprising to me because there are obviously a lot of great threads on this forum...

          I decided to weigh in again because Kelly decided to bow out of this thread, and because I think that some of what he said on the Blog got a little bit (understandably) misinterpreted by some folks.

          First off, I am Kelly's business partner, so I am biased. But Kelly's earned my trust through years of honesty, value and integrity, which I have witnessed first hand.

          I also want to thank all of the folks on both sides of the debate here for the passion that's gone into each post because I don't think there's a single person here posting out of spite...

          As in: I sense the palatable desire here for industry wide integrity, and Kelly and I both applaud that motive.

          So even if you think I might be jumping on what you've said as you read my lengthy post here, it's NOT because I'm trying to humiliate anybody.

          Nor is this reply designed to draw any hype to Kelly and my projects.

          In fact, the reason I'm doing this is because we don't want to instigate or perpetuate any fighting (by cats or by people!)

          The primary distinction that I thought might have been missed is that this:

          Kelly's Blog post on his site is about an evolution in the way he does business and nothing more...

          Some folks might have, again understandably, gotten the impression that since Kelly was in a very reflective place when he wrote that Blog post, that he was admitting to rubbing his hands together greedily like Monty Burns, the iconic corrupt nuclear power plant owner from "the Simpsons", and cruelly extorting helpless customers for every penny they were worth with an evil cackle, and then clubbing baby seals for fun or whatever :p

          The reality of the situation, and I'm going to give you my take from what I personally witnessed behind the scenes, was that because of the Rich Jerk persona there was necessarily a layer of outsourcers or employees between Kelly and many of his customers, preventing him from getting live feedback on how they were performing ESPECIALLY when it came to his coaching floors and also somewhat with JVs.

          (Though of course that's always somewhat the case with JVs...the best you can do is carefully research the offer and then follow up with your customers to find out if they are getting results...and nobody I ever met researched as much as Kelly, and I personally worked with hundreds of top affiliates...then after the research and the promotion, you make a decision as to whether to promote again or not based on those results. Kelly did this and the times when his customers weren't getting value he refused to promote again...even when threatened by his former JV partners with refusal to pay Kelly's outstanding affiliate commissions...if you read between the lines here you'll know who I'm talking about, and you'll remember that unlike most top affiliates Kelly avoided repeating his errors with unscrupulous JVs.)

          As far as the coaching floors were concerned, I personally traveled to Las Vegas with Kelly several times as he surprise spot checked the phone sales floors to make sure that they weren't turning into "Boiler Room" situations...and he repeatedly secret shopped his own sales floors as well (oddly enough he would make up a fake order and insert a phony name along with his cell number so that the salesman wouldn't know, and he would listen to their "pitch").

          When Kelly found abuse, just like with the JV situation, he would fire the phone coaching sales floor and start from scratch.

          That said, as he mentioned in his Blog post, Kelly was still highly dissatisfied with the outcome in too many cases, and was constantly bothered by his lack of direct 1-on-1 feedback with his customers.

          He was totally sure of the value of his Rich Jerk ebook because he had personally seen so much success from it both in his Rich Jerk forum and from customers he spoke with one on one. But he started to realize that the disconnect between himself and the coaching situation BECAUSE the Internet really is such a golden opportunity for folks to build legitimate organized businesses, and there was no reason not to take things to the next level...

          While Kelly didn't have authority to "pull the plug" or call all of the shots with the Rich Jerk situation, because there were other investors, who together could assert majority control over the business, he did work very hard to assure quality...and in a move that I greatly admired, when he realized that there wasn't any way for him to bring things up to the standards that he envisioned, he silently bowed out of major involvement and began anew with a blank slate to help evolve the way Internet marketing is taught...including creating a personal one-on-one situation between himself and his new clients.

          This evolution with Bring the Fresh removed all of the barriers for Kelly to get raw feedback from his customers, and put him in a position to provide not only encouragement but an "over the shoulder" walkthrough of the live businesses that he's currently building for his customers.

          We're now very proud of the success that our new customers have had...for instance one of our newest BTF customers now boasts the #1 Google ranking for a search term that has 22,800,000 competing pages and an average PPC price of $5...after 3 weeks with us!

          (And that's after the same customer bought a prominent $800 per month SEO training program that only allowed him to pick up a few longtail keyword terms before he gave up.)

          Kelly is very proud for the success that his Rich Jerk customers had, both from his Rich Jerk ebook, and from those folks who did succeed with the affiliate and coaching offers he promoted.

          And he made an open offer right here in this Warrior thread for folks who felt like they may have been "burned" by those coaching or JV offers to enjoy lifetime membership with us at Bring the Fresh on the house.

          (Interestingly only one person has thus far taken us up on that offer, so it may be that the "issues" with those programs might have been a bit more mild then Kelly initially imagined...or it could be that word hasn't spread yet. Regardless we'll continue to cheerfully honor Kelly's offer.)

          On a candid note it's been a joy for me to be Kelly's close friend and business partner.

          Kelly's not just a smart and funny business mind, but he's one of the best friends I've ever had, and he's a loving and playful father to two joy-filled kids.

          He's also the most raw and honest person I've ever known...

          ...The first time I ever talked to him at a party that somehow turned into a JV mastermind 5 years ago, I asked him how big his list was...and he said "Who cares, everyone lies anyway."

          I was hooked on the spot!

          ...But that said, it's very understandable to me when some folks mistake his raw honesty as being the actions of a man on death row who only has a short time to live and wants to make his peace! But I've actually found his honesty to be so refreshing once you get to know him that now I can't imagine life without it.

          (Besides, what's wrong with living like you were dying?)

          One thing for folks who haven't gotten to know Kelly just yet:

          He's got a sharp wit and he's a true sarcastic.

          As in: the Rich Jerk was a joke. Kelly didn't think he was better than anybody else. He was poking fun at all of the Tom Vu clones out there on the Internet.

          Undoubtedly some folks will read this post and still feel riled up, and I accept and respect that.

          Kelly's sense of humor isn't for everyone...and everyone who ends up loving Kelly as I love him doesn't necessarily start off that way.

          I also think that it's hard for some folks to accept that Kelly's Blog really is "off the cuff" and that he didn't plan any of it, including the post that has so many folks feelin' froggy here today =)

          I noticed, as an example, that somebody here thought they were calling Kelly out because he said in that Blog post that you should be "suspicious of launches" and that he also pointed out on our BringTheFresh blog that I've been behind the scenes of many of the biggest launches, because they found the two ideas contradictory.

          But I'm in an evolution too, and one of the things I told Kelly...or maybe it was what he told me, I can't remember any more...was that we wanted no part of scarcity based launches anymore because while the excitement and passion that they breed is, well exciting...there are a number of side effects for prospects and customers that we weren't willing to repeat.

          That's why we "soft launched" BTF with zero scarcity or hype...because we want folks to take their time so they can relax and get familiar with us as people and with the value BTF has to offer, instead of putting deadlines or limits on things.

          My main point is that what individuals are seeing with Kelly is an evolution and nothing more.

          We've been in business online for a collective 20-years, which is pretty good for a couple of guys in their early 30s, and as we experience new things we try to integrate them into our business and into our lives...

          A final example has nothing to do with online marketing, but with diet:

          I know one guy who springs back and forth between eating loads of sweets and potato chips and sodas and such, and trying to go 100% raw food with diets...and unfortunately when he tells me he's on a diet I kind of get the feeling in the back of my head "here we go again."

          Kelly, by contrast, has always taken relatively good care in his diet ever since his early days as an actor.

          But he also continues to evolve his diet slightly every year towards more raw veggies, fresher more humane food, and cutting down on processed foods with lots of salt, sugar and the like.

          The result is that when Kelly brings up a new recipe he'd like to try out, it usually lands on a plate in front of me within a few days...

          That's a good parallel for the way Kelly operates in business, and it's one of the big reasons why I've chosen to partner with him and not with other folks who have offered to work with me.

          The last thing I'll say is that, in the interests of keeping things down to a dull roar so folks can zero in on the many other valuable threads on Warrior, I invite you to write me a private Warrior message, or to call me personally if you have questions or concerns because while I'll certainly answer you in public here, it might help a bit to keep everyone focused on providing value to their customers in the online businesses they are creating with the help of other Warriors here.

          =)

          It's all happening,

          Mike Long

          858-699-2747
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          • Profile picture of the author CorporatePuppet
            LOL at some of the responses on here.

            I guarantee some of the people throwing mud at Kelly have promoted CPA rebills. Now THAT is scamming people on a WHOLE other level than outsourcing coaching. I'm not judging just stating a fact for you to ponder.

            Some of you guys have too much time on your hands and way too much negativity in your life.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mr. Enthusiastic
            Thanks for your post, Mike.

            Originally Posted by EdmondDantes View Post

            As in: I sense the palatable desire here for industry wide integrity, and Kelly and I both applaud that motive.
            Yes, I think you guys are surfing a wave that's already very powerful... the desire for more heartfelt, "keeping it real" communication rather than just "the big show."

            Not sure if you meant "it tastes good" (palatable) or "you can feel it" (palpable).

            Kelly did this and the times when his customers weren't getting value he refused to promote again...
            he would make up a fake order and insert a phony name along with his cell number so that the salesman wouldn't know, and he would listen to their "pitch"...When Kelly found abuse, just like with the JV situation, he would fire the phone coaching sales floor and start from scratch.
            While Kelly didn't have authority to "pull the plug" or call all of the shots with the Rich Jerk situation, because there were other investors, who together could assert majority control
            All of this is very helpful to know. Without it, you can see how the picture was incomplete. The impression from the blog post was that he spent years fleecing the suckers while looking the other way. Then one day he kinda felt bad... and that was it. Your post gives people a more complete understanding of the action he took along the way.

            when he realized that there wasn't any way for him to bring things up to the standards that he envisioned, he silently bowed out of major involvement and began anew with a blank slate
            I can respect that too.

            And he made an open offer right here in this Warrior thread for folks who felt like they may have been "burned" by those coaching or JV offers to enjoy lifetime membership with us at Bring the Fresh on the house.
            I'm sorry that I missed that. Way to go. Props for being honorable. Etc.

            it could be that word hasn't spread yet.
            I think it would help for you to put all this in a guest post on Kelly's blog, or for him to put it up there.

            I'm just a nobody but I suspect that other people share my interpretations.

            Mike, if your post is accurate and heartfelt (it feels like it is), then I withdraw my criticism of Kelly because this addresses all of my concerns.

            Kelly, I apologize for drawing harsh conclusions when I didn't know the things Mike talks about here.

            I wish you guys all the happiness & success in the world with your new venture.

            Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Powers
    wow,nice article,I like it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thaddaeus T. Hogg
    Well now, thut thar feller Kelly Felix shore hit the nail right on the head with this hear comment...
    One of the craziest things I've realized is that people love lines. I'm not kidding. If you go somewhere and you see a line, don't people typically just get in that line without asking questions?
    Here in the holler, we dun went ad did one a them thar sci-en-tific spearments jest to test thut thar theory.

    We put up one a them thar tinkle rooms an we had folks line up in front of it. Wellsir, jest like Kelly said, other folk come an lined up with them an them folk never asked one dadburn question bout why they wus in line!

    Here is the eeriest part of all... ever dadgum single one a them thar folks whut gots in line needed to go pee real bad! Don't thut thar jest send cold shivers right down yer backbone?
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    Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
    http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Affiliatebuddy
    HEllo

    I will say most of affiliate networks are having crap in their foundation.

    They are rich after promoting

    make money while giving discounts... for $195. you know who did it...
    Google Money
    Ebay Money
    Social networking money
    ****
    Colon Cleanse
    Grant money ( need less to say... they are stealing $200 from some jobless )
    Work from home offers.
    Email/Zip Submit leading to above stuff.

    I respect CJ and Linkshare that they never jumped into this mud for money..And they are still big.

    All network guys are spending money at
    Parties with naked pole dancers
    parties with naked girls getting their body painted infront of them

    Its true if you attend their parties...

    Is it not something a Gang of crooks .. Legitimate and tricky enough.

    Networks/ Merchant talk about quality ( scam done in proper manner) and no Fraud.

    Who will ask them to " Stop frauding all America" ... Probably Obama.

    Dont know who will bell the cat.

    And yes.. i make/made/ and will make a lot of money from aff marketing only.

    Thanks
    AB
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  • Profile picture of the author Dezire
    When u admit a fault and tell the truth u can earn peoples trust. I am seeing a lot more "truthful" marketers lately, probably a new trend.
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    • Profile picture of the author KellyFelix
      Originally Posted by Dezire View Post

      When u admit a fault and tell the truth u can earn peoples trust. I am seeing a lot more "truthful" marketers lately, probably a new trend.
      Mike and I have noticed a few fellow marketers getting their acts together too, and we hope that maybe we nudged some of them in that direction a little.

      Many are dropping the telemarketing rooms that sell their "coaching", and are getting more hands-on with their customers. Hopefully the trend will continue. Next, maybe some of the infomercial gurus will follow suit as well. But I won't hold my breath.

      We'd also prefer to see the $1,000+ IM products come to an end. With such abundant information available, its tough to justify a 4 figure product, based purely on hype and the perceived value that is created by the same "super" affiliates over and over again. And the people who need help the most typically can't afford these things, or shouldn't be trying to afford them by spending money they don't really have.

      In my opinion, the high ticket items are usually worth about 25% of what is charged for them (at best), because the guru has to keep in mind affiliate commissions (50%) and refunds (another 25% on high ticket items).

      Regarding whether of not BTF is any good, that is a topic better left for discussion here: http://www.warriorforum.com/internet-marketing-product-reviews-ratings/170580-bring-fresh.html

      Best,
      Kelly
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Yeah, I just cant wrap my head around those $1,000+ Info. Products being hawked in the IM niche.
        I know, I know people will say if you can make 10 times that much because you bought that $2,000 Product then its worth it.
        Maybe so, but the majority of them still leave a bad taste in my mouth !!
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