Quit Being A Scaredy Cat!

by John Taylor 20 replies
Are you intimidated by Google?

There are lots of posts that seem to suggest that Google
is some form of higher authority whose rules must be
obeyed without fail.

People see "grey hat" or "black hat" as something that is
somehow illegal or immoral.

Why?

Your business is your business, if you were a senior officer
in a huge corporation, your job would be to maximise the
return on the capital employed. Your job is no different!

Instead of worrying about what Google may think or how
they may respond, think about generating profit.

From the purest white to the darkest black is just a
continuum. You decide how far up that continuum you wish
to go. It's your business, your choice and your decision.

In fact I very much doubt that any of us work at the extreme
white end of the continuum, we all push the boundaries.

Don't we?

I wonder what shade of hat your competitors are wearing?

John
#main internet marketing discussion forum #cat #quit #scaredy
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    John, I love it.

    Surprised to hear this coming from you, but I love it.

    I don't know any gray or black hat stuff to use, but I guess if it could give
    me an advantage without getting me screwed by them in the process, I
    would use it.

    I think the problem has more to do with the penalties (if they indeed exist)
    than anything ethical.

    But like I said, all I know how to do is create a site and put it up there.

    My mom always said I'd make a lousy crook.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Steven,

    I just get fed up of seeing people taking on the mantle
    of victim when it comes to Google.

    Google, and all the other search engines, are self serving.

    They are like the casinos, they tilt the odds in their favour.

    Instead of seeing them as "in charge" we should be looking
    at how we can can change the odds in our favour.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Steven,

      I just get fed up of seeing people taking on the mantle
      of victim when it comes to Google.

      Google, and all the other search engines, are self serving.

      They are like the casinos, they tilt the odds in their favour.

      Instead of seeing them as "in charge" we should be looking
      at how we can can change the odds in our favour.

      John
      Well, I guess that's where I admit that I need an SEO expert.

      All I know to do is put up a site with relevant content and the correct
      keywords. If that's what Google ultimately wants, then that should be
      enough. And yet, I have a site that is over 3 years old, updated every
      week and still you couldn't find it if you searched for a year.

      So I don't know. Like I said, I need an expert.
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    • Profile picture of the author zerofill
      Heh...good post...

      I can tell you Google wears a black hat haha...

      But I don't look at them as in charge of anything...I just look for ways around their mistakes. That is the frame of mind I put myself in. They make mistakes...capitalize on them. Think of them as a competitor too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg Cooksley
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Steven,

      I just get fed up of seeing people taking on the mantle
      of victim when it comes to Google.

      Google, and all the other search engines, are self serving.

      They are like the casinos, they tilt the odds in their favour.

      Instead of seeing them as "in charge" we should be looking
      at how we can can change the odds in our favour.

      John

      Good point John,

      In life we are taught to toe the line and not upset the apple
      cart....

      Many people translate that into the way they deal with big organisations...

      I agree with you, we should look for ways to exploit
      these organisations....

      Regards

      Greg
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  • Profile picture of the author rapidscc
    Dealing with big "G" is relative.

    If indeed somebody is in a "gun in your head" situation
    of course by all means do whatever he can.

    But if he's not and it's just due to greed. Then it's
    better to practice some virtue.

    But how do we really say that we are wearing a black, grey or white hat?

    Just yesterday, due to the SEO techniques that I learned here I was able to place a page in 7th place for my keyword for 8+million results.

    I did some tweaking in the URL and in the contents and I linked to some contents and I placed it on some contents site and whala! in 5 hours I was
    no 7.

    Is that considered black hat or is it just that SEO people has an unfair advantage?

    ~Omar
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    • Profile picture of the author zerofill
      Originally Posted by rapidscc View Post

      Is that considered black hat or is it just that SEO people has an unfair advantage?
      All is fair in love and Google rankings...

      You do what you have to do to rank...period. My morals are in the site I'm taking someone to...not the sites that bring them there. If you understand what I mean.

      As long as I am not stealing someone elses content to get them there...and what I am bringing them to isn't trash...

      Then it's all fair game.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    I don't wear a hat. I build and promote websites and blogs. I keep them updated, create a diverse link portfolio and then flip them.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author NiallR
    Hi,

    The odd thing is that Google views most SEO as grey hat at least because SEO itself is the art of manipulating search engine results through link building, LSI based content, keyword density, mininets etc.

    As for how far up the black hat ladder you wish to climb. Hmmmm. My own experience is that blackhat is fine as long as you're developing the domain/site with the understanding that it can and probably will receive a Google ban. This is the death of a website but as a friend once told me you "you're not an online marketer until you've had a site banned".

    While this is true it's also "painful" to see months of hard work washed down, income and several thousands dollars of investment washed down the drain by one blackhat tactic.

    Each to their own but my time is better spent on building useful websites that have longevity instead of chasing the lastest blackhat SEO methodology for short term gain.

    Are you better off chasing rainbows or building out your online presence with tried and tested methods? I know what my answer is
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    "Feel the power of the dark side"

    Darth Taylor, 2008

    I've been on a rant recently behind the scenes about people who PREACH to others how they should be running their businesses. Especially when the preachers don't have an income of their own so to speak. What really winds me up is the apparent jealous undertone that comes with it.

    I'm all for coaching and guidance, but disapproval and judgement of someone's business practices (mostly through misunderstanding) is just ridiculous. Outside of this forum, how many people look upon info product marketers as shady?

    I don't care what hat you're wearing... until your tactics affect my business - but then it's up to me to react and adapt.

    It's survival of the fittest baby!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      What you said was correct but more importantly, what happened to your avatar?

      TomG.

      Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

      "Feel the power of the dark side"

      Darth Taylor, 2008

      I've been on a rant recently behind the scenes about people who PREACH to others how they should be running their businesses. Especially when the preachers don't have an income of their own so to speak. What really winds me up is the apparent jealous undertone that comes with it.

      I'm all for coaching and guidance, but disapproval and judgement of someone's business practices (mostly through misunderstanding) is just ridiculous. Outside of this forum, how many people look upon info product marketers as shady?

      I don't care what hat you're wearing... until your tactics affect my business - but then it's up to me to react and adapt.

      It's survival of the fittest baby!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author Ricter
        Interesting post, John. I recall that the bravest men and women I ever met were behind bars in the jail where I worked. I'm not joking.

        They also had the most creative reasoning I've ever heard for justifying their actions. Again, I'm not joking.

        On the one hand, I hope your readers will not go too far down that continuum. But on the other hand, it's ok if they do, my fellow officers pay their bills with the work!

        I'll admit it would take some effort to go so far, in IM, to wind up in a jail. : )
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        • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
          Google rules are just that, rules, they are not the law. Breaking the law of whatever country cannot be condoned, but testing and flexing rules is another matter totally.

          As John said, it's up to you how far you go down towards black hat, I'm not going to judge, unless it affects me or people I care about.

          Personally, I wear different coloured hats for different occasions, and I'd never wear a white hat, it wouldn't suit me !!

          Peter
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        • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
          Originally Posted by Ricter View Post

          Interesting post, John. I recall that the bravest men and women I ever met were behind bars in the jail where I worked. I'm not joking.

          They also had the most creative reasoning I've ever heard for justifying their actions. Again, I'm not joking.

          On the one hand, I hope your readers will not go too far down that continuum. But on the other hand, it's ok if they do, my fellow officers pay their bills with the work!

          I'll admit it would take some effort to go so far, in IM, to wind up in a jail. : )
          And I wonder whose best interest is served by promulgating
          the myth that "Black hat" techniques are somehow illegal?

          Black hat isn't about breaking the law, it's about ignoring the
          rules that Google expect you to follow. It's about pushing the
          boundaries, taking risks and focusing on your own agenda
          rather than the search engine's agenda.

          John
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          • Profile picture of the author Ricter
            Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

            And I wonder whose best interest is served by promulgating
            the myth that "Black hat" techniques are somehow illegal?

            Black hat isn't about breaking the law, it's about ignoring the
            rules that Google expect you to follow. It's about pushing the
            boundaries, taking risks and focusing on your own agenda
            rather than the search engine's agenda.

            John
            Yes, quite right. I was thinking of that blogger who went to jail recently. Nothing to do with Google.
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        • Profile picture of the author rapidscc
          Originally Posted by Ricter View Post

          Interesting post, John. I recall that the bravest men and women I ever met were behind bars in the jail where I worked. I'm not joking.

          They also had the most creative reasoning I've ever heard for justifying their actions. Again, I'm not joking.

          On the one hand, I hope your readers will not go too far down that continuum. But on the other hand, it's ok if they do, my fellow officers pay their bills with the work!

          I'll admit it would take some effort to go so far, in IM, to wind up in a jail. : )
          Ric,

          That's quite low man, do you think that the people in this forum is that low..Mentioning jails and everything. This is a professional forum. We discuss here Internet marketing and improving it, in a commendable and not so commendable way..I wonder why you posted such a negative comment. Do you think that some of us here would stoop down to such a level to warrant a jail term?

          Just asking..

          ~Omar
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          • Profile picture of the author Ricter
            Originally Posted by rapidscc View Post

            Ric,

            That's quite low man, do you think that the people in this forum is that low..Mentioning jails and everything. This is a professional forum. We discuss here Internet marketing and improving it, in a commendable and not so commendable way..I wonder why you posted such a negative comment. Do you think that some of us here would stoop down to such a level to warrant a jail term?

            Just asking..

            ~Omar
            I got lost in the recent jail thing. John's post focuses on Google's rules, not society's. My bad.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chuck Evans
        Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

        What you said was correct but more importantly, what happened to your avatar?

        TomG.
        You mean this one?



        The Force is very powerful and if not careful can over power you!

        chuck
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    I'm glad you posted it.. it demonstrates why there's
    so much misunderstanding about the meaning of the
    "hats".

    Everyone has an opinion, unfortunately few of those
    opinions are based on the reality. People confuse the
    various forms of SEO with illegal activities.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author MizzCindy
      Interesting thread.

      I have absolutely no problem with SEO tactics that exploit Google's rating/ranking structure. I think the casino analogy (Google = the house) is an apt one.

      However, I don't equate SEO tactics with black hat. When I think about black hat, I think of activities that consist of stealing or doing something underhanded to deliberately tank a competitor.

      Things like going to a competitor's site and repeatedly clicking their Adsense ads, or reporting to their host service that they are stealing content to get them shut down (when they're not), or blatantly stealing their articles/graphics/sales pages, etc.

      This type of stuff is what I think of when I think 'black hat'. To me, that's an entirely different animal than using Google's dictates to my advantage.

      I didn't realize there were people that considered SEO to be black hat. Curiouser and curiouser...

      Cindy

      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      I'm glad you posted it.. it demonstrates why there's
      so much misunderstanding about the meaning of the
      "hats".

      Everyone has an opinion, unfortunately few of those
      opinions are based on the reality. People confuse the
      various forms of SEO with illegal activities.

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Russell
        Excellent post John and I couldnt agree more!

        You dont know how many times I have been asked if our software is "BlackHat" and I always give the same answer. "Its only as ethical as its users".

        For some reason many are under the impression that automation equates to Blackhat. If we were to subscribe to this conclusion as being correct we would have to disallow many of the effective tools we marketers use.

        Joe Russell
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by MizzCindy View Post

        When I think about black hat, I think of activities that consist of stealing or doing something underhanded to deliberately tank a competitor.
        Cindy,

        A more appropriate definition would be..

        "Black Hat: Black Hat SEO is the use of SEO techniques
        that fall out with the terms and conditions of major search
        engines."


        John
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