The Scourge of Refund(er)s

47 replies
I've heard about this site for years, but never investigated. Finally found it while looking for fixes to the Frank Kern List Machine, which is a great product...in concept (lol).

I've been in the IM field since the early 00's, first using EBay for my traffic/sales, and then starting a few websites. Never got "rich" from my IM work, but it was a fun sideline to my main source of income (forex trader).

After searching through this site for a few days, I've learned that many of you are experiencing what I've found to be true these last 2-3 years: refund rates run up to 40-50% of sales on a whole lot of products.

Many of you are wondering what the solution is to reverse this painful trend, and I'm here to tell you that you need to quit wasting your time focusing on the refunders and focus more on the people who buy and keep your products.

When the net first proved itself as a viable source of commerce, most of us figured that if we kept refunds under 10%, we were doing fine.

And we were.

But back in the old days (pre-internet) getting a refund on a mail order product was usually more trouble then it was worth. You had to mail the product back to the seller, sometimes in the very box it came in. You had to keep track of the address, write a quick note asking for your money back, go to the post office, pay for the postage, and then sit and wait for weeks/months/years to get your money back.

Frankly, it was just too much trouble for any product priced below $50.

But now?

You log onto the site, pay for your purchase, download the product, log in to the payment vendor site, and click on the refund button.

How hard is that? If it takes you more than 5 minutes from start to finish you must not be familiar with using a computer.

Combine ease of refunding with a growing lack of morals amongst the populace (who don't seem troubled by the idea that in asking for immediate refunds they are in effect stealing the product from the vendor) and you get a steady refund rate that is fast approaching 1/2 of your sales.

In my niche (forex) I keep a list of everyone who ever asked for a refund on any product I sold or promoted. On the products that I manually deliver, I now refund their money before I ship with a note asking them to please not do business with me any longer. Most get pissed and flame me before they opt out of my list, but I figure if they aren't buying (and keeping) they aren't customers to begin with.

This has dropped my refund rate back down to 3-5% and provides me with a list I can mail to without worrying about seeing my income erode back to zero on any particular product.

I also noticed that Plimus (my payment vendor of choice) will flag any download purchase fom anyone with 2 or more refunds in their history, and allow me to approve or deny the transaction before product is delivered. This has helped keep my refunds at a minimum.

So if I had to boil this all down to a couple of sentences, it would be that refunders are now a way of life. Drop them from your lists whenever possible and focus on the core group of honest buyers who remain.
#forex #marketing #refunders #refunds #scourge
  • Profile picture of the author b.super13
    Glenellis,

    Thanks for the great post. I've been looking into using Plimus as well. Refunds are frustrating but I think your idea is very good.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dave Lianelli
      That seems like a good feature for a payment processor. But it may also be a part of privacy. Even when they got it in their Terms of Service, it may still violate the law.

      I've worked at a bank and giving information about the financial troubles of a client was prohibited, even towards the police.
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      • Profile picture of the author Glenellis
        Originally Posted by Dave Lianelli View Post

        That seems like a good feature for a payment processor. But it may also be a part of privacy. Even when they got it in their Terms of Service, it may still violate the law.

        I've worked at a bank and giving information about the financial troubles of a client was prohibited, even towards the police.
        I see your point, Dave, but since every refund I have to process takes money out of my pocket in addition to the money I have to refund, I'm glad to have that information up front. And I don't look at this information as a statement of the buyers financial condition...I look at it as more of a glimpse of their "intent" when they chose to make the original purchase.
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    • Profile picture of the author gtal
      I find the idea that as little as 2 refunds in a person's history is a little bit extreme to be calling someone a "refunder". When I go to a bookstore I can scan through the book and take a look at some of the info and be able to make a decision of whether this book might give me what I'm looking for. I can't do that with digital products.

      Personally I have asked for refunds more than twice on products that seriously did not deliver according to what the sales page promised. While there definitely are tons of really good and useful ebooks on the market, I'm sure you will agree that there is also some real junk.

      After being in the IM niche for a couple of years, I'm learning to smell hype and scam in a sales page, but I can't always tell. The only reason I even started buying digital products "sight unseen" is because I could get my money back if the product was junk. Or if it really legitimately did not meet my needs.

      I will tell you that I don't buy clothes online because I can't try them on to see if they fit and I won't pay the shipping fees to find out. I'll go down to the store and try them on for the pennies it cost for gas to get there.

      And I have asked for my money back on junk products. More than twice. And I will do so in the future if the product is junk. Seeing as I have purchased and NOT refunded many products, my overall "refund request" rate is pretty low. But it is more than 2 products.

      I have also requested a refund in the past for a very good (physical) info product that was advertised to be useful to a "newbie" but in reality was so far over my head that I could not use it. It was very expensive and I couldn't afford to hang on to it until I maybe could use it someday (if the info wasn't out of date). But it was a good product and I would definitely look into the author's products again in the future when I am a little more experienced in this profession.

      I don't consider myself a "refunder" in the context of being a "scourge", but rather an honest consumer who is using the money back policy in order to see if the product meets my needs. If that were not available to me, I would not buy products online.

      There are scammers in every nook and cranny of society. There's nothing you can do to fix that. I think filtering out anyone who has refunded 2 times in their history is throwing out the baby with the bath water. I think there needs to be a little more data on refunders than just "2 times in their history". I would say a more useful stat would be the "pattern" a refunder has more than just a straight number. Now that would be a useful piece of information.
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  • Profile picture of the author MJ Sterling
    I think refunds should be looked at case by case, because, while I don't like them, they can *sometimes* provide a real benefit to your business.

    Sometimes a refunder can go on to become a very loyal customer, not too often but it does happen.

    There's also the chance to get feedback from the unhappy customer, make improvements to the product that will benefit existing and future customers.

    I think most refunders are **** heads, but not all.. looking at each situation on its own can work out better for everyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lou Diamond
    Hello,
    when it comes down to refunds I blame the sales page and the product as well.
    The sales page claims you will make some big bucks over night,the product can
    be rehashed from day one,bonuses that are promised have to be chased down,
    support is not there,I can go on and on.
    If you have so many refunds just fix the problems that lead to the refunds and stop
    crying about it.
    Lou
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    Something new soon.

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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
      Originally Posted by Lou Diamond View Post

      Hello,
      when it comes down to refunds I blame the sales page and the product as well.
      The sales page claims you will make some big bucks over night,the product can
      be rehashed from day one,bonuses that are promised have to be chased down,
      support is not there,I can go on and on.
      If you have so many refunds just fix the problems that lead to the refunds and stop
      crying about it.
      Lou
      Thanks for that Lou, Your right it is easy sometimes to blame the refunder, and perhaps that blame is well placed, and we cant really say the exact extent of the problem only the OP knows for sure, but I would rather, find out why, and fix the problem, (if there is a problem) which usually there is, there are few people out there that habitually ask for a refund, the idea of keeping a black ball list, seems like over kill and a waste of time.

      But hey thats just my two cents, I rarely bother to get a refund, unless I feel like I was violated, which happens from time to time,

      I spend 15, to 25 thousand dollars every year on products online, a good bit of it right here.

      It would be a big mistake to put me on a black list.

      No flames, no flowers, just send the money...

      just kidding, but seriously, folks, I am just presenting a different viewpoint, I am not saying that the OP is wrong, or entirely right, I am sure they have real reasons to want to reduce the refund rate.

      I just think Lous thoughts bear out some good reasoning power.

      peace, everyone,
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      Software Development | Applications | OSX | iOS | Android | Cloud Software Engineering |
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    • Profile picture of the author Mountainmotorman
      Originally Posted by Lou Diamond View Post

      Hello,
      when it comes down to refunds I blame the sales page and the product as well.
      The sales page claims you will make some big bucks over night,the product can
      be rehashed from day one,bonuses that are promised have to be chased down,
      support is not there,I can go on and on.
      If you have so many refunds just fix the problems that lead to the refunds and stop
      crying about it.
      Lou
      DEAD ON LOU!!!!!!!! Just like us LONG ISLAND BOYS to tell is CLEARLY!!! LOL
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
        Like I said, it's easy to blame the product, but I think much of it just has to do with how casual people are about it. I get 2-3 of these a day:



        That's not someone asking for help with anything, thats not someone who was unsatisfied with the product. Look at the timestamps. This person was able to purchase the software, download it and run it, and use it long enough to determine they were unsatisfied with the product and file a dispute with me over paypal. And they did it all in just six minutes.

        I get at least 2-3 of these a day, usually within 10-15 minutes between purchase and refund request. It's really easy to say "you have a crap product" or "you have a misleading sales page" but I think anyone who is even halfway reasonable would agree that something else is going on here.

        So yeah, producers like me shouldn't be "whining about refunds" but customers shouldn't be whining about high prices for software either, because unfortunately the bad apples are wasting our time and driving up the prices for everyone.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Morgan View Post

          Like I said, it's easy to blame the product, but I think much of it just has to do with how casual people are about it. I get 2-3 of these a day:



          That's not someone asking for help with anything, thats not someone who was unsatisfied with the product. Look at the timestamps. This person was able to purchase the software, download it and run it, and use it long enough to determine they were unsatisfied with the product and file a dispute with me over paypal. And they did it all in just six minutes.

          I get at least 2-3 of these a day, usually within 10-15 minutes between purchase and refund request. It's really easy to say "you have a crap product" or "you have a misleading sales page" but I think anyone who is even halfway reasonable would agree that something else is going on here.

          So yeah, producers like me shouldn't be "whining about refunds" but customers shouldn't be whining about high prices for software either, because unfortunately the bad apples are wasting our time and driving up the prices for everyone.
          Yes it is. They are filing a "product not as described" dispute. That certainly looks like someone who was most definitely "unsatisfied with the product". I'd even go further - someone who was totally pissed about the product. So pissed that within minutes they were making a claim. 40-50% refund rate should be telling you something. But anyway...with a downloadable product you're always going to get the smartasses who ask for a refund but keep the product. That's the nature of the beast. But if you're getting those high refund rates something's rotten in the State of Denmark for sure. But I feel your pain. I have a guy who's made a claim against me on PayPal for copywriting services he says weren't delivered. A week's worth of work. Week later I'm still waiting for PayPal to make a determination.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
            Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

            Yes it is. They are filing a "product not as described" dispute. That certainly looks like someone who was most definitely "unsatisfied with the product". I'd even go further - someone who was totally pissed about the product.
            In six minutes? Really? It takes longer than that to generate a license, download the product, install it and fill out the dispute form at Paypal. I wish I could be a devoted optimist and try to see it from that point of view, but I'd be pretty naive.

            They aren't pissed off until I deactivate the license. Then I get the "I paid for it, I have no idea about this refund you're talking about" emails.

            They're thieves. Not all refunders are thieves of course, but these 10 minutes or less people who still try to use the products are thieves. Pure and simple. They're lucky I don't call them out publicly.
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            • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Morgan View Post

              In six minutes? Really? It takes longer than that to generate a license, download the product, install it and fill out the dispute form at Paypal. I wish I could be a devoted optimist and try to see it from that point of view, but I'd be pretty naive.

              They aren't pissed off until I deactivate the license. Then I get the "I paid for it, I have no idea about this refund you're talking about" emails.

              They're thieves. Not all refunders are thieves of course, but these 10 minutes or less people who still try to use the products are thieves. Pure and simple. They're lucky I don't call them out publicly.
              I see what you mean. You're right. They're thieves. Can you I.P. trace them BTW? Is it country-specific?
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
                Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

                I see what you mean. You're right. They're thieves. Can you I.P. trace them BTW? Is it country-specific?
                Yeah i trace their IPs that way I can ban them, a lot of it comes from the U.S. which is really interesting considering most people I've talked to have more problems with countries outside the U.S. when it comes to these kinds of things. I've had bursts of problems in eastern europe, but that's to be expected. Occasionally I will sell to someone in that area, and then I see tons of varying IPs accessing the same license.

                For the most part I've learned to ignore it and try to minimize the amount of time they take up, so I don't do as much analysis on it but it does become frustrating at times. I pay a lot more attention to those who legitimately weren't satisfied with the product that way I can find ways to improve it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
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            Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

            Yes it is. They are filing a "product not as described" dispute. That certainly looks like someone who was most definitely "unsatisfied with the product". I'd even go further - someone who was totally pissed about the product. So pissed that within minutes they were making a claim.
            Were you expecting the Easter Bunny to show up today by any chance?
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Gram
    I would never send a refunder a note saying not to do business with you again, unless of course they do it more than once. One of my largest consulting clients first bought one of our products (and asked for a refund).

    We take refunds as an opportunity to learn more about how we can improve our product, service, or communication and in the case above, this "refunder" turned out to be a significant client (one of our best).
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Gram View Post

      I would never send a refunder a note saying not to do business with you again, unless of course they do it more than once. One of my largest consulting clients first bought one of our products (and asked for a refund).

      .
      I would never issue a refund, and THEN send the product either, lol. That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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      • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        I would never issue a refund, and THEN send the product either, lol. That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
        Did he say he sent the product? I took it to mean that instead of sending the product, he sent a refund with a note.
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  • Profile picture of the author Glenellis
    Lou,

    In the last two years I released 2 of my own products and promoted 5 others from vendors in the forex arena who actually turn out a quality product (a rare find in forex).

    I have a slew of unsolicited testimonials from buyers who raved about the two products I released and how those products helped them find consistent winning trades.

    I also have a list of 30 names that refunded every single product, most within 7-10 days of purchase.

    Think I should blame the sales pages for that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
      I note that Matt Furey does not offer refunds

      I have only ever asked for a refund once on an ebook and it was only because it didn't have the information I was looking for

      It was a smooth no hassle process and I would definitely buy a new product from the same guy in the future, due to the ease in getting my money back
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  • Profile picture of the author Mrs S
    The problem with refunds of digital products is that the customer effectively gets to keep it for free. If I buy a book from amazon and they mail it to me I have to send it back if I ask for a refund. You can't really do that with an ebook.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
      Thanks for the great post. I too have super high refund rates these days, especially on my Twitter products.

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Are you serious? 40% to 50% refund rates? What's the price range of products you're seeing these rates on? Man, something is seriously wrong with that...
      It's really easy to blame the product, but I don't think it's the case. It's the state of our business and society, I'll tell you why.

      After a high refund rate, I built a server based licensing system into my products, so people have to have a valid serial number that's verified on my server. To this day I have around %50 of people asking for refunds, saying they don't like the product, or couldn't get it to work, yet after I refund them they still attempt to use the product after they get their money back.

      This tells me that it wasn't my product that was bad, it was a dishonest person. Paypal and other processors make it way too easy to scam people, so they buy software, get the serial number then demand their money back and continue to use the product. What I did was create a license system so I can shut it off.

      But in the end you're better off not focusing on these petty thieves and just do what you can to take care of the honest customers. Don't spend a lot of time or money trying to stop them, it simply isn't worth it.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
          I find it interesting that the refunds from clickbank sales are consistently much higher than from elsewhere such as paypal sales. Clickbank have always said that they ban serial refunders but i've never heard of 1 person being banned.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Morgan View Post

        Thanks for the great post. I too have super high refund rates these days, especially on my Twitter products.



        It's really easy to blame the product, but I don't think it's the case. It's the state of our business and society, I'll tell you why.

        After a high refund rate, I built a server based licensing system into my products, so people have to have a valid serial number that's verified on my server. To this day I have around %50 of people asking for refunds, saying they don't like the product, or couldn't get it to work, yet after I refund them they still attempt to use the product after they get their money back.

        This tells me that it wasn't my product that was bad, it was a dishonest person. Paypal and other processors make it way too easy to scam people, so they buy software, get the serial number then demand their money back and continue to use the product. What I did was create a license system so I can shut it off.

        But in the end you're better off not focusing on these petty thieves and just do what you can to take care of the honest customers. Don't spend a lot of time or money trying to stop them, it simply isn't worth it.

        Sorry but there is something else there than the economy. I sell software and have never seen those type of refunds.

        You do get some people trying to get the product for free but not 50%.

        If the software is solid maybe the sales page is misleading them somehow.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Sorry but there is something else there than the economy. I sell software and have never seen those type of refunds.

          You do get some people trying to get the product for free but not 50%.

          If the software is solid maybe the sales page is misleading them somehow.
          As I said, if that were the case they wouldn't keep trying to use it after being refunded.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              All I can suggest then is consider going the no refund route. It does lead to the ocassional dispute and charge back, but I win those [disputes] consistently as the refund policy is clearly stated. PayPal has really gone to bat for me on charge backs as well....
              I have considered the no refund route, but I do know that there are some people that honestly don't like the software or can't figure out how to use it and I don't want to shortchange them.

              My solution in the works is, I am going to add on some features to the product and rebrand it as something else, and make it really expensive. My existing customers (the honest ones) who are happy with the product will get a free upgrade, and any new customers will pay have to pay $50 or more for it. This way it weeds out many of the refunders who aren't willing to risk $50 to do the serial number and refund game.

              I probably won't make many sales, but I don't care as I'm no longer interested in growing the product. I have been forced to do this as I've lost a tremendous amount of time on the product for very little profit. The only reason I make updates to the software now is because the customers I do have that pay for it really like the product, and they've been great.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Morgan View Post

            As I said, if that were the case they wouldn't keep trying to use it after being refunded.
            lol

            Sorry Jeremy, that doesn't tell me anything. It just tells me they didn't think your software was worth the price or something was misleading on the sales page.

            There is no way 50% of your customers are thieves.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              lol

              Sorry Jeremy, that doesn't tell me anything. It just tells me they didn't think your software was worth the price or something was misleading on the sales page.

              There is no way 50% of your customers are thieves.
              It's easy to throw that out there, if you want to be an optimist about it, but what else do you call people who purchase something, then ask for a refund within 5-10 minutes saying "item not as described" or something similar, then after refunding them they're still using it?

              It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude these people were attempting to get a serial number and get their money back. You also have to look at the target audience. I only have this problem with one piece of software, the twitter friend adder. This same piece of software has attracted a very strange group of people, I have people reselling it constantly, and bundling it with their own software, etc. I find it for sale all over the net with their serial numbers as part of the instructions.

              After a year I can safely say that it's a software that's popular with dishonest people and feel pretty confident about it. That's why it's going to be discontinued soon.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Morgan View Post

        It's really easy to blame the product, but I don't think it's the case. It's the state of our business and society, I'll tell you why.

        After a high refund rate, I built a server based licensing system into my products, so people have to have a valid serial number that's verified on my server. To this day I have around %50 of people asking for refunds, saying they don't like the product, or couldn't get it to work, yet after I refund them they still attempt to use the product after they get their money back.

        This tells me that it wasn't my product that was bad, it was a dishonest person. Paypal and other processors make it way too easy to scam people, so they buy software, get the serial number then demand their money back and continue to use the product. What I did was create a license system so I can shut it off.
        SOMETHING is WRONG about that! Either they are ALL 100% IDIOTS, you are lying, or you are misinterpreting the info! WHY!?!?!?

        The LOGICAL order is:

        1. BUY
        2. TRY
        3. REFUND!

        YOU claim it is:

        1. Buy
        2. Refund
        3. try.

        WHY!?!?!?

        If it is the way YOU claim, it is just UNREAL! If it were that way, they are working with unknowns, endangering their ability to get a refund, etc... ALSO, why didn't you bring up the fact that they never tried it? If it is the LOGICAL way, then maybe they didn't uninstall it, couldn't uninstall, etc... If your product is SO great, why didn't they try to repurchase, etc...?

        40-50% is VERY bad! Try having chargebacks to that degree with a merchant account. They will SHUT YOU DOWN, and BLACK LIST YOU! And there are NOT THAT many actual PROCESSORS! Just take a look at the support list for like authorize.net.

        As for "black listing" refunders, technically, that would be illegal. If you provide a searchable database or similar, it IS illegal! It is also STUPID! There is a LOT of garbage out there. How come EVERYONE here figures NOBODY knows what they do, and their info is good for EVERYONE!?!?!? HECK, a lot of things don't even fit the SALES PAGE!

        You can't even provide a list of charge back "culprits".

        BTW I have done a few refunds, and several chargebacks. The total amount of those may not even be $1000. So how much do I charge? I don't do hundreds. Not thousands. I do WELL into the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars USD every year! Heck, I have a microleased car for $500 a MONTH! I live in a hotel that costs about $20000 a year. I buy about $5000 worth of airline flights a year. I have a server that costs about $1440 a year. Just last week in just a couple other companies, I charged over ANOTHER $300! IMAGINE if they refused to do business with me because a few IDIOTS tried to cheat me!

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Sara Young
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Are you serious? 40% to 50% refund rates? What's the price range of products you're seeing these rates on? Man, something is seriously wrong with that...
      Yes. This is totally nuts.

      Must be really bad products, or sales letters that promise and don't deliver.
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    • Profile picture of the author smak
      One tactic that I have deployed with little success and am sure is the case with many other IMers is that when u get that dreaded message from the refunder requesting refund, U offer them a 'bribe' in the form of related product (must be of good value) so that they can change heir mind.

      The job u have to do here is that in this 'refund-reversal' package, u have to try to build value so that the bugger (I mean the refunder) percieves it as good proposition and takes you up on it.

      Best if you have ready made email template with short copy of the product u r offereing as 'bribe' along with good image of it, so you can bring this template into play everytime the buggers come knocking your door.

      You have to make sure though that if it ain't your product, then you have giveaway rights to use it in this manner.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnpetrov
    a server based licensing system is great. But what you can do if you're selling an ebook?
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    • Profile picture of the author eQuus
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Ship physical product.

      End of story.
      Great idea, but wouldn't that usher in the end of the information business? It would mean going back to paper publishing, and to many IMers that would be cost prohibitive.

      Saying up front on the sales page "No Refund on this Product" appeals to me. Not offering refunds would be a double-edged sword though: it will eliminate the "professional refunders," and it will also trim down redundant publishers -- publishers who offer products containing a dozen CDs and three dozen ebooks of pure bilge.
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  • Profile picture of the author simonjwarner
    I bought a $1000 training course, with a 100 percent money back guarantee.

    Asked for a refund, didnt get, will never do buisness with the person again.

    Refunds kind of come with turf, my refund rate is 2 percent and im happy with that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Long
    I offer quick, simple and easy refunds with a smile and total professional courtesy.

    My refunders then fall into two, roughly equal groups:

    1. The people who want something for nothing. Not much I can do about them, but I make sure their last experience with me was a good one, regardless. In 11 years, there has been exactly *one* person I couldn't make happy, no matter what I did. I'll take that.

    2. Those who write back, telling me how shocked they were at how quick, painless and yes...even pleasant the refund experience was. This group tells me without reservation that the product simply wasn't right for them, but they wish to stay on my list in case I produce something in the future that they want.

    I too struggled with the right approach with refunders for a long time. This one aligns properly with my values, and has the added benefit of doing a pretty good job of weeding out the serial refunders from the honest folks.

    Karma in the land of refunds....I kind of like it.

    ~Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author jonathanleger
    I have to agree with the folks who see something seriously wrong in a 40-50% refund rate. I sell software to Internet Marketers and Search Engine Optimization users, two groups of people who are fully aware of how easy it is to get a refund.

    Doing this, the worst refund rate I ever had was 15%, and that was when I was using ClickBank as my primary processor. When I switched to PayDotCom (which uses PayPal), my refund rate was cut in half.

    I now use a server-based licensing system for most everything, so if somebody cancels I disable their account. But even before I was doing that my refund rate stayed at or below 10%.

    Something is definitely wrong with what's being promised versus what's being delivered, or the product is overpriced or something.
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  • Profile picture of the author Igor Pauer
    We are selling physicall products (jewelry) and our refund rates are deeply below 1%. We got lot of very loyal customers through fast refunds. Mostly refunds are from new customers, which choose i.e. bad ring size and then they panicked that we will not change it, so they ask for refund. If they see, that there is no problem with refund, they order good size.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Glenellis View Post

    In my niche (forex) I keep a list of everyone who ever asked for a refund on any product I sold or promoted. On the products that I manually deliver, I now refund their money before I ship with a note asking them to please not do business with me any longer. Most get pissed and flame me before they opt out of my list, but I figure if they aren't buying (and keeping) they aren't customers to begin with.
    I use DLGuard. When someone requests a refund after downloading one of my sites, their IPs and paypal emails instantly go in the Ban list in DLGuard, which automatically prevents them from purchasing from me again ... for any product.

    I have no desire to do business with people who think that Paypal disputes is the best way to get free products. I rarely ever get someone who requests a refund and has a reason. These Paypal disputes are normally filed immediately after downloading my product and no request for a refund has been sent to me by them. Nothing but a bunch of low life scammers.
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  • Profile picture of the author jaysteven84
    OMG 40-50% refund rate is very high. But I have heard that high refund rates are in
    forex niche. Personally for my clickbank products I promote i never got refund rate more than 10-15%
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
      Originally Posted by jaysteven84 View Post

      OMG 40-50% refund rate is very high. But I have heard that high refund rates are in
      forex niche. Personally for my clickbank products I promote i never got refund rate more than 10-15%
      Mine certainly isn't 50% across the board, Only for my Twitter products. And clickbank denied it saying they don't allow twitter products, so there could be something I don't now. I have heard forex is similar it could just be the type of market who purchases it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Blaze
    Kinda related but i know alot of people here will be looking at this for general refunds specific to their product's too!

    Online ebooks etc if you provide a follow up email sequence or even just send them an email 1 day after with a mini-bonus and then an email a few days before the last refund date informing them about another bonus and then give them the bonus on the day after the last refund date then you lower your refund rate a whole lot.

    Not only that but you are also providing more value as well as benefiting yourself too which is always good.

    Physical products - you can do the same sort of thing or just make the refund process more difficult and make them have to send it back along with their transaction id and pay for postage (non refundable) and you will give a refund once you recieve it!

    Might help someone

    Mark Blaze
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    I have no desire to do business with people who think that Paypal disputes is the best way to get free products. I rarely ever get someone who requests a refund and has a reason. These Paypal disputes are normally filed immediately after downloading my product and no request for a refund has been sent to me by them. Nothing but a bunch of low life scammers.
    yeah - with the websites there is absolutely no reason to ask for a refund they've ALREADY seen the entire product in your demo site!!!

    Lee
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulaC
    I think it's a bit extreme to be telling customers not to be doing business with you again. I have bought quite a lot of informational products over the years but as yet have only asked for a refund for two products. One of those was for someone on this forum and yet I went on to buy two other products from this person. If he had said to me that I shouldn't do business with him again then he would have lost out on those two sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    The OP's biggest complaint seems to be with immediate refunds upon purchase and then continued use of the product. at 40-50% refunds, I am thinking that the refund sales are the results of referrals from within a forum of the thieves who tell how easy it is to buy, refund and use the product for what has become free. But after the deactivation code was installed, the referrals ceased since it could no longer be used.

    Personally, i wonder if rather than deactivate it, the code should first have started skewing the results and causing the users to lose money, but that is the mean streak in me talking. lol
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  • In the Clickbank Forex niche, 50% refund is VERY common. I have stopped promoting Forex products because they sell like hotcakes, but then your earning are cut in half. I remember one product I made 20 sales for, and few weeks later only 6 sales were standing (that's what? a 70% refund?).

    The Forex niche is crazy: most products are scams, and also most customers are gullible to no end.
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  • By the way, and I don't know if I am the only one in this, but Singapore is BY FAR the country I get the highest refund rates from. When I see an order coming from Singapore I KNOW that chances are tha tI am going to get refunded on that on. My refunds from Singapore are like 50% or so.
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  • Profile picture of the author marcdonovan
    I have always had a 100%, no-questions-asked refund policy. If they are trying to get something for nothing, karma will take care of that. If it's an e-book, who cares, it's just a few electrons. If it's my autosubmitter, I will give a refund even after they used the system all month long (never had that happen yet though) What am I out? Some server load? Big deal. Now if someone kept asking for a refund and coming back, that's a different thing altogether.
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