Help Me Get My Money Back

by Ray Abraham

Posted: 15 years ago 25 replies

INTERNET MARKETING

Hi Warriors,

Long story short, I jumped in a CPA coaching program by a "trusted"
DP (DigitalPoint forum) member from India. He crafted a great sales copy
and promised $1,000-$3,000 per month will be easy, even for newbies.

It's been 2 weeks now. He taught me some tricks with AdWords and
I followed all his instructions to the letters. Guess how much I made?

$6.00.

My expense so far: $527 (coaching, Adwords voucher and virtual Visa).
As you can see, I didn't even make enough to cover the Visa & voucher,
let alone break even the coaching fee and have some ROI.

What makes it worse:
- He VERY RARELY online on his messenger (invisible/offline all the time).
Originally, he told me that he will be online all day during the coaching.
- Once he's online (2-3 times a week), it's over 2 a.m. in the morning.
I told him my time zone since the very beginning, and he's just 1,5 hours
difference from my time. Complained but he didn't bother.
- He kept saying his method works for him and all his other students
and have no idea why it doesn't for me. He accessed my PC via
TeamViewer a couple of times, made some adjustments, but no result.

So yesterday I emailed him to ask my money back...

He then -finally- appears on the messenger after 3 days hiding from me
and immediately said I can't ask my money back because the course isn't
over yet (method not properly implemented), his grandma is sick, and
he didn't have the money to refund me.

When I insisted, he went on and on about I should compensate his time
spent teaching me, his method and all. Then in the end, he asked me
my AdWords username and password so he can work on it and prove
that his method works. I said I'll check him back in 3 days time and if
by then he can't even make $50, I want my money back. He DISAGREE.
He only said "let's just wait for 3 days and let's see..." and went offline.

What should I do?
I have a feeling that, no matter what, he won't refund my money...

Should I just file a dispute on Paypal? When? Will I win in this case?
(He has a money back guarantee stated on his sales thread, and
buyer can file a dispute if s/he is not satisfied with the coaching.)
Is he only buying time because after 45 days buyers can't file a dispute?

Let's hear from you, Warriors, who have been through this in the past.

Thank you,
Ray

#back #money

MarkAnderson 15 years ago

I also faced to same thing few months ago. The product had nothing more than garbage so, I asked for refund. The seller started to giving me BIG talks and I realized that, never will be able to get my money back in ethical way.

I checked his sites and made a plan to get my money back.

I don't recommend the method what I explain here for you as do. But I did it

I created some (...) and sold him after few efforts, and earned (that's refund) over $4.00 than I spent for his stupid product.

Am I wrong? Of course not, because If he refunds my money with respecting to the money back guarantee, I never do this thing.
- Thanks
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Sue McDonald 15 years ago

Did you pay up front or are you paying month by month? If you are paying month by month through paypal you can just go in and cancel your subscription. If he has a guarantee you could also dispute it with paypal. It takes a while but it is worth trying.
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Dave d 15 years ago

Ray. unfortunately I dont think there is a whole lot you can do. Pay Pal are normally reluctant to issue refunds for non tangible items. It is certainly worth fighting. If the guy is ripping similar people off and has made a large chunk of change then he is unlikely to refund everybody. Ask him to clealry detail the guarantee and under what circumstances can you get a refund.

I hate to say this but you may have to take this as lesson learned. If anybody else is considering any type of coaching dont get sucked in by wild guarantees because in order to qualify you will usually have to follow throught the entire course which could involve large investments, so even if you you do manage to get your money back for the course it may be too little to late !
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affilorama-portal 15 years ago

It looks pretty much like a scam to me. You should dispute it on paypal.
Nobody, but nobody, can promise specific amounts to be earned on any program. Individual results will always vary, and it depends on many factors, such as the niche you selected, the products you are promoting, your promotion methods, among other things.
- Thanks
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BobJutsu 15 years ago

Sooo....why are you worrying about getting your money back instead of making your money with adwords? I'm not saying that you haven't been had by an idiot, I'm just saying that cholk it up to bad judgement, and keep going with adwords and actually make some money...
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- bt 15 years ago
  
  If I were you i would definitely file a dispute with PayPal. Nobody likes to have complaints on their PayPal acct. It just might scare him enough to refund you. Good luck.
  
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bertuseng

15 years ago

What kind of money making method was this? Adsense?

Thanks
1 reply

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Ray Abraham

15 years ago

Thanks Warriors for all the feedbacks.

I don't know if it helps, but I just cross-checked and found out
that I made the payment as "Goods" (as he requested because
Paypal recently had trouble with non-goods payment for India)
and I provided a shipping address. Left a note, though, that
the money is "for the coaching". Will that help?

For ones asking if it's a subscription or a one time fee...
unfortunately, I paid the whole $500 bucks up-front.

I'll deal with him again after 3 days, which is March 28th.
So, I'd like to hear more inputs from you as for what's the best
way to proceed so I can get my money back.

Originally Posted by MarkAnderson

I checked his sites and made a plan to get my money back.

I don't recommend the method what I explain here for you as do. But I did it

I created some (...) and sold him after few efforts, and earned (that's refund) over $4.00 than I spent for his stupid product.

Mark, care to share the plan via PM? Thank you.

Originally Posted by Sue McDonald

If he has a guarantee you could also dispute it with paypal. It takes a while but it is worth trying.

Yea, he stated a "100% money back guarantee or you file a dispute on Paypal".
Will that kind of guarantee help my position?

Originally Posted by Dave d

Ray. unfortunately I dont think there is a whole lot you can do. Pay Pal are normally reluctant to issue refunds for non tangible items. It is certainly worth fighting. If the guy is ripping similar people off and has made a large chunk of change then he is unlikely to refund everybody. Ask him to clealry detail the guarantee and under what circumstances can you get a refund.

Dave, have you got personal experience regarding refund for non-tangible items?
I just checked that I paid the coaching fee with "Goods" payment option per
his request and provided a shipping address. I sent a note, though, that it was
"for the coaching". Will that help?

Originally Posted by affilorama-portal

It looks pretty much like a scam to me. You should dispute it on paypal.

To dispute it vs not to dispute it... can anyone share the pro's and con's?

Originally Posted by VincentMuir

If you think the amount is worth fighting for, then by all means, find the right avenues to hunt him down, otherwise cancel the cards and move on...this time being a little more wiser and having learned from the experience.

Can't be done. We live in different countries.

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

File a dispute at PayPal and also give him negative Trader Points or whatever it is they use at DP. Be sure to comment in the thread in such a way that you're not attacking him - just give the facts. Not much else you can do unless you paid him by credit card, in which case you can do a charge back.

BIG Mike, I'm curious, under what circumstances then filing a dispute at Paypal
would be granted the refund?

Originally Posted by BobJutsu

Sooo....why are you worrying about getting your money back instead of making your money with adwords? I'm not saying that you haven't been had by an idiot, I'm just saying that cholk it up to bad judgement, and keep going with adwords and actually make some money...

I am. Or, to be exact, I was.
My AdWords balance of $140 (from the voucher) all got burnt and I made $6 in the end.

Originally Posted by bt

If I were you i would definitely file a dispute with PayPal. Nobody likes to have complaints on their PayPal acct. It just might scare him enough to refund you. Good luck.

Nice insight, thanks. That gives me more courage.

Originally Posted by bertuseng

What kind of money making method was this? Adsense?

Told ya in the beginning, it's a CPA coaching.

Thank you,
Ray

Thanks
1 reply

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Igor Pauer 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ray Abraham

Dave, have you got personal experience regarding refund for non-tangible items?

Once we paid for some domains in Indonesia (.co.id) by paypal. Everything was OK, but after 10 days the domain company informed us, that domains cannot be owned by non-indonesian companies. They refuse to return money and take domains back.

So we start dispute on paypal, they never respond in dispute. After few days paypal fully refunds our money.

I do not know if this will help you, this is only experience with non-tangible items dispute, we have. You have to try by yourself.
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sbucciarel Banned 15 years ago

Do a paypal dispute. He's not going to refund you. As far as I am concerned, you can trust no one on DP. At least I wouldn't.
- Thanks
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infinity875 Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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- Hanz 15 years ago
  
  I got my services from a fellow on DP too last summer. He was offering a page 1 ranking on Google for my keyword along with lifetime SEO services.
  He posts here on Warrior now after being exposed as a scammer on DP and was chased off DP altogether. LOL!
  Furthermore, after I paid, he did absolutely nothing for me. We talked a lot on Skype, then he'd outline all his plans and everything that his "team" would be doing for me in regards to SEO, then he would disappear for days, then come back and tell me how he's working on it, then he'd disappear for days, then come back telling me how everything was coming together, then he'd disappear again...
  Months and months went by, and still...nothing. Not even one backlink provided. When we struck a deal in early January that he'd provide PDF reports weekly of all the work he's doing, he disappeared again for 2 months and still, I got nothing from him. Then last week when I requested a refund, he threw me a single page report of an RSS feed which he made in like 5 minutes to shut me up. LOL!!! And even still, he's feeding my the same old baloney about all the work his team is doing for my site. And again, he's disappeared. Never answers his emails and he's permanently vanished from Skype. Either that or he's blocked me which is the likely scenario.
  Always do a thorough background check on the people you deal with before paying them for a service. That's my advice. Sometimes it's impossible to really get any details on who you're dealing with though. IM is a risky game when it comes to outsourcing. Try to hire locally if you can. That way, you can drive over to their residence if they try to be smart and attempt to avoid you online by dismissing your pms and emails. People will be more willing to do the work if they realize they can't physically hide from you.
  
  Thanks
  
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Lloyd Buchinski 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ray Abraham

he asked me my AdWords username and password

#!^%$ hope you don't give it to him, (!) That could get really bad.

For a credit card refund you have a lot more options than paypal. I had to do a Mastercard charge back for the first time not long ago. I was surprised that most of the info for that was right on the back of the monthly statement.

There are about 10 different reasons you can apply for a charge back and the tenth one is 'other.' Since my situation was a little weird that was the one that fitted. It took maybe 6 weeks but they did it, refunded me the money.

Just print out anything relevant and mail it in to them with what happened.

good luck
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hollyvelance 15 years ago

You need to be careful.

I won't want to be the barer of bad news, but unless he conditionally guaranteed you earn $1,000 - $3,000 a month then I'm not sure that your dispute would have any grounds.

The best thing to do is to file a dispute and a claim with Paypal and make sure you get backups of all communications you had with the seller (including sales copy)
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R Hagel 15 years ago

I have to agree with Lloyd -- don't give this guy your passwords or usernames. You clearly don't trust him overall, so please don't trust him with your personal information.

And if you did give it to him, then change it. Plus if you have *any* passwords similar to the one you use at AdWords, change them right away. For example, do you have any email, PayPal, banking, forum, website memberships, accounts/profiles, etc with a similar password?

If so, change them all now.

Cheers,
Becky
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TheKeys 15 years ago

Like what's stated above.. Your first red flag should have been that he is in India.. Secondly That's too much money to be giving someone to make 1k+ a month.. unrealistic.

Also you can file a paypal dispute but paypal normally sides with the seller on non-tangible items.
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sbucciarel Banned 15 years ago

You'll just have to file the dispute. No one here can really do anything for you. File it and say you did not receive anything. If you told Paypal it was for goods, he would have to provide shipping information and of course, he hasn't shipped anything.

Or you can just come clean with Paypal and tell them it was for consulting services that you have not received.
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TSCarter 15 years ago

Dispute it.
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Ray Abraham

15 years ago

UPDATE:
- Filed a dispute on March 28th 2010
- Seller didn't response in any way
- Today, April 1st 2010, Seller told me to go escalate it to a claim
because he doesn't have time to respond to the dispute.

So there I went to escalate the dispute to a claim.

BUT... what happened next is so ridiculous it's not even funny.

Paypal immediately sent an automated reply containing this:

You have chosen to escalate your dispute to a PayPal claim. By ending
communication with the seller, you are asking PayPal to investigate the
case and decide the outcome. As part of our investigation, PayPal reviewed
any communication you may have had in the Resolution Center.

Our investigation into your claim is complete. As stated in our User
Agreement, the claims process only applies to the shipment of goods. It
does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of goods
received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a
refund.

What should I do now?
Should I go dispute it again as goods shipment and escalate it again?
Or should I wait for a couple more days before doing so?
Or what..? Do you have any idea?

Really appreciate your help. Thanks.

Ray

Thanks

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LilBlackDress 15 years ago

I believe you have to have not received the goods (whether they are tangible or intangible) in order to get a refund.

So if you had said you never got anything instead of you were unhappy with the quality you would have gotten a refund.

Can you go back and say you filled out the form incorrectly?
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SEOExpert104 15 years ago

OH GREAT, THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE DOES, MAKES EXCUSES !!!
My grandma is sick, you can count on that, that it's a lie... had similar thing long time ago.

If the method makes him 1k-3k a month, how come he has $0 now? Lies..
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- davidjames42973 15 years ago
  
  My advice is to file a dispute with paypal and don't purchase any high end products from Digital Point. There are some great people at that forum, but there's also a ton of con artists too.
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Kay King 15 years ago
  
  promised $1,000-$3,000 per month will be easy, even for newbies.
  
  Did that "promise" include the first month or was the promise for after you had all the "training"?
  
  If there was a 45 days refund guarantee you still have time. You might tell him in advance that you plan to pursue this on DP and with paypal - that might be enough for him to find the money to refund you.
  
  There do seem to be a lot of sick grandma's in IM....
  
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tylerdrun 15 years ago

His grandma's sick. That's one of the most stupidest reasons ever given. Some scammers do it. Not just online, I've seen some con fellows beg and say that my grandma's sick, mom's sick blah blah to get us to buy some product.

LIES AND LIES. CONTACT THE DP MODERATORS,

If you had paid through paypal, contact those officials.

And finally one word of advice:

DP's not the place. Warrior Forum is the safest and the best. The WSO's are brilliant and they do work... And it's safe. Get the refund money or contact your credit card officials and get the money back. \

Find out where he lives. If he lives in bangalore, I might be able to track him down.
- [ 1 ] Thanks
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Underground SEO 15 years ago

ahhhh man thats bad, all you can now is hope you paid with a credit card, although saying that you can still chargeback a debit card I believe, at least in the UK I have done in the past, contact your bank and see what they say.
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R Hagel 15 years ago

Folks, read the whole thread before responding -- especially Ray's Post #23. He's ALREADY dealing with PayPal.
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Help Me Get My Money Back

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