26 replies
Was speaking with somebody regarding refunds and we came up with an interesting theory...wanted to run it by you folks..


Out of all the successful Internet Marketers we know, not one of them is a serial refunder and most of them dont ask for refunds at all.

We think this has to do with mindset and perspective. The people who always ask for refunds are the people who want something for nothing. They want that method that will make them a million dollars without them doing anything. They normally get nowhere and make no money.

The people who never ask for refunds approach buying as an investment. Sometimes your investments are good, sometimes not so much. So, they chalk up a horrible product to a bad investment and dont bother asking for a refund. I think this speaks volumes to perspective. These types of people are approaching Internet Marketing as a business and seem to succeed far more frequently.

Do you think this holds true?
#debate #refund
  • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
    I do think it holds true. The only time I've ever asked for a refund was on an expensive software title I bought that I ended up not having the time or brainpower to learn. And I only requested a refund on that because I knew I wouldn't eventually have the time to learn it...or I'd have kept it.

    Infoproducts? Nah, I'd never ask for a refund. I've bought some absolutely HORRIBLE stuff, and literally deleted it off my hard drive after looking at the first page or so. But, you win some, you lose some!
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author acrasial
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      I don't agree with that at all...

      As a consumer, I expect to receive what was offered and that, properly implemented, it performs as described. It doesn't matter to me if it's physical goods, digital goods, food, lodging, whatever.

      If I am able to obtain some tangible value from a product; and if I believe that value is commensurate with what was paid, then no problem.

      On the other hand, I'm a firm believer in not supporting poor quality workmanship. If the product does not live up to what was offered, i.e.; the sales copy, then I have no problem asking for a refund (assuming of course that one was offered). Not asking for one just perpetuates more poor quality down the road.

      I could give you numerous examples of what my interpretation of poor quality is, but my guess is that if you buy info products, you're already aware of what I mean.

      I do believe that purchasing a good quality product is an investment in terms of enhancing one's knowledge. But I do not believe it's an investment in terms of having risk associated with the purchase (unless of course no refund is offered).

      I'm not a serial refunder by any definition, but I am also not afraid to demand a refund where one is appropriately due.
      I would thank you for this, however there is a "thank limit" on the forum, and I have surpassed it, as far as I am aware. Therefore, I am making this post to inform you that I agree here, that we shouldn't have to pay for junk either...as sometimes the salespage is white and the product itself is black.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nutrifitness
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      I don't agree with that at all...

      As a consumer, I expect to receive what was offered and that, properly implemented, it performs as described. It doesn't matter to me if it's physical goods, digital goods, food, lodging, whatever.

      If I am able to obtain some tangible value from a product; and if I believe that value is commensurate with what was paid, then no problem.

      On the other hand, I'm a firm believer in not supporting poor quality workmanship. If the product does not live up to what was offered, i.e.; the sales copy, then I have no problem asking for a refund (assuming of course that one was offered). Not asking for one just perpetuates more poor quality down the road.

      I could give you numerous examples of what my interpretation of poor quality is, but my guess is that if you buy info products, you're already aware of what I mean.

      I do believe that purchasing a good quality product is an investment in terms of enhancing one's knowledge. But I do not believe it's an investment in terms of having risk associated with the purchase (unless of course no refund is offered).

      I'm not a serial refunder by any definition, but I am also not afraid to demand a refund where one is appropriately due.
      I don't know this sounds too subjective to debate...I see both sides...I personally have a very low refund rate....below 1% ...but if 1 person says I don't belive your product is worth the price and 4000 say it is...does that make him wrong? I guess from my standpoint it would. but from his??? get my point?
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Nutrifitness
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          I think that's just the price you pay for working in such a subjective market. The difference is that the customer is only responding from his or her viewpoint and wouldn't know you've got 4K happy campers.

          I do think IM'ers set themselves up for a higher than refund rate, not only due to the hype in their copy, but also targeting an inexperienced audience who are frustrated because the product is so far over their head. So they call it a crappy product and take up the marketer on their refund policy.
          ya your right!.....and you don't even know if he's just having buyers remorse....so from a vendors standpoint it would be frustrating...not only because they just got a digital product(take that out of the equation) but buyers remorse does not equate to "not getting what you paid for" ....comprendo?
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author Nutrifitness
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              I agree - but again, this is where IM'ers shoot themselves in the foot. They offer up a "No Questions Asked, 60 Day Refund Policy" and then get surprised when folks with "Buyer's Remorse" take them up on it.

              In order to close the sale, they put a lot of language in there making it seem incredible, but can't stand it when it backfires.

              In many circumstances I think you're better off not making the sale just so you don't have to deal with the aftermath. That's why I switched to a No Refund Policy after thoroughly testing it for six months.

              It's human nature to be frugal and look for good deals.
              I agree again! but I guess that brings us right back to the clickbank debate...I know what you're going to say..lol don't sell through CB or you agreed to their terms.... i know .I know...
              I still think they should and could do something that makes it more stringent to get a refund..again that's a whole other can of worms..
              you are making me think
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              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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                • Profile picture of the author Nutrifitness
                  Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                  That's why I don't sell through CB - selling through PayPal can be bad enough. At one time, PayPal for example offered buyers a look at how many unique transactions a given seller had made. They used a ridiculously complex formula to do this, but it added a small layer of buyer confidence.

                  Personally, I think payment processors like CB and PayPal should offer an API where you can pre-qualify the customer based on their past history of refunds, disputes and chargebacks, rather than keeping it a secret.
                  Cb does have an API for something..not that ...but I wish I understood API more
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Nutrifitness View Post

        I don't know this sounds too subjective to debate...I see both sides...I personally have a very low refund rate....below 1% ...but if 1 person says I don't belive your product is worth the price and 4000 say it is...does that make him wrong? I guess from my standpoint it would. but from his??? get my point?
        If I demanded that you pay me $300 for a course of penicillin, would you call it a ripoff? PROBABLY, huh? yet someone even 85 years ago might have LAUGHED at the low cost! I mean a MIRACLE drug that could save your life, prevent debility, etc?!?!? Yet today, you would say NO WAY!

        Do you see how silly your argument is?

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author JonMills
    Not much holds true when it comes to refunds.

    For instance, sure.. you will get those free loading *******s that exist only to rip people off and well.. karma has a funny way of returning that money back and in the process sticking a big red hot poker up their bottom.

    But there are those who like your walmart purchases, buy something, take it home and realize it wasn`t what they expected or such and in that case.. If a refund policy is in place, its there for a reason and by refunding back. Walmart may get them buy from them again. Its just part of business.
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    • Profile picture of the author bigcullie
      [QUOTE=JonMills;1928999]Not much holds true when it comes to refunds.

      For instance, sure.. you will get those free loading *******s that exist only to rip people off and well.. karma has a funny way of returning that money back and in the process sticking a big red hot poker up their bottom.
      QUOTE]

      I find this to be true. If anybody wants a refund from me, they can have it, no problems. I find if people get something for nothing, they get nothing from it; and dare I say, that has included me. On the other hand, if I have paid for something, I want value for that something, but you must admit, a refund can be a hastle that both parties could do without.
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  • Profile picture of the author MJ Sterling
    I agree with that.. the only time I've asked for a refund is if a product or service doesn't arrive..

    The rest of time, even with bad products (which is very rare) ya just gotta put it down to experience.. although there's never been a single product which I haven't got something from, be it inspiration, an idea, no matter how bad the bulk of it has been.

    You're right, they are investments.. some people view products as a form of entertainment.. not the tools they really are.

    I mean you can't go to the cinema, watch a movie and demand a refund because you didn't like it, right?
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    Absolutely ... with one difference in my own business. The people who try to be serial refunders often are scammers who try to rip off my sites to sell for themselves. I use DLGuard and whenever anyone requests a refund, I ban them in DLGuard and they can never purchase from me again, so I don't have any serial refunders, except for the ones like the one in my sig link about PP scammer.

    I rarely ever ask for a refund. If it's an outright scam, I will, but if I bought something (an info product) that just didn't really live up to my expectations, I just never buy from that seller again. I will ask for a refund for a software product that does not work or a service that is useless to me for whatever reason.
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    • Profile picture of the author Caritas
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Absolutely ... with one difference in my own business. The people who try to be serial refunders often are scammers who try to rip off my sites to sell for themselves. I use DLGuard and whenever anyone requests a refund, I ban them in DLGuard and they can never purchase from me again, so I don't have any serial refunders, except for the ones like the one in my sig link about PP scammer.

      I rarely ever ask for a refund. If it's an outright scam, I will, but if I bought something (an info product) that just didn't really live up to my expectations, I just never buy from that seller again. I will ask for a refund for a software product that does not work or a service that is useless to me for whatever reason.
      One refund? If your serial refund rate is that high, perhaps you should have a "no refund" policy.

      Otherwise, you are losing the good will of the honest refunders. You worked hard to earn their trust. Why throw it away? Just make the true terms of sale crystal clear.

      Caritas
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  • Profile picture of the author TheKeys
    I agree with this 100%. I have people asking me for refunds on a package that was $3.00. I find it odd. Unless it's like something over $100 I still see it as an investment.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    Originally Posted by Kenster View Post

    Was speaking with somebody regarding refunds and we came up with an interesting theory...wanted to run it by you folks..


    Out of all the successful Internet Marketers we know, not one of them is a serial refunder and most of them dont ask for refunds at all.

    We think this has to do with mindset and perspective. The people who always ask for refunds are the people who want something for nothing. They want that method that will make them a million dollars without them doing anything. They normally get nowhere and make no money.

    The people who never ask for refunds approach buying as an investment. Sometimes your investments are good, sometimes not so much. So, they chalk up a horrible product to a bad investment and dont bother asking for a refund. I think this speaks volumes to perspective. These types of people are approaching Internet Marketing as a business and seem to succeed far more frequently.

    Do you think this holds true?
    I think that some of what you say might be true, but I think a large part of "refunds" is something that sellers bring on themselves.

    "If you don't like the weather that day - get a refund"

    " If you are not 1000000000% satisfied - get a no questions asked refund"

    So, basically in one hand, sellers offer the sun, moon, stars, and pretty much inviting people to refund - then when the buyer does, the seller wonders why?

    lol

    In situations like this, you have to take the good with the bad.

    You probably get more buyers because of the massive and no questions asked refund policy, but because of it, you will have more people that want to take you up on it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
    I've got to agree with that too, I've bought some absolute rubbish in terms of IM products before, but like someone said before, I just put it down to experience and forget about it. I've never asked for a refund for a product yet... most of the IM products I buy are just $30 odd so it's not that big a hit to take. I do have sympathy for those who produce IM products though and get serial refunders, it must be highly frustrating!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenster
    I think some of you are missing what I was trying to say or maybe I communicated poorly...

    I'm not wondering whether buyers have the right to ask for a refund and I'm not wondering whether they should refund.

    I am simply wondering if you think there is any sort of correlation between people who tend to refund a lot and those peoples eventual success in this industry. So, if we plotted a graph of the percentage of refunds of every single buyer of info products versus their future success, would there be any resemblance of a correlation?

    just curious what your thoughts are
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        I am sure some of it does hold true but over all, I don't agree with it. In todays world we are told if it doesn't work, you can get a full refund and I think that expectation has been brought over to online to. Asking for a refund which is miss advertised, doesn't work etc... It has nothing to do with mindset, it is expecting what is promised.

        Does this have a direct correlation with success, I highly doubt it, even the richest of people are tight with money and they expect to get exactly what is promised. That is my view anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kenster
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        No, I think the data would be grossly skewed if your sampling was taken strictly from Internet Marketers.

        As you can see from the comments, there is a mindset that says, "I won't ask for refunds", which I believe is a direct result of being afraid to be labeled as a serial refunder or scammer.

        And this is just my opinion, but I also think a lot of folks in IM would lie about whether or not they ask for refunds - again, because of the stigma associated with it.

        Years ago, I recall people who uttered the phrase, "Ask for a refund" or "Do a Charge back" in the WF, got hammered pretty hard over it. I still see it today - not too long ago I made a comment in a thread I started where I commented I would ask for a refund or do a chargeback and got slammed for my comments.

        How dare I have the audacity to take action for my benefit, to protect my interests, at the expense of another Internet Marketer?

        I can assure you that I am very successful, but how often I ask for a refund does not have a role in it.

        I'm old school I guess - from my corporate days whether a product was returned, credited, refunded or whatever was just business, nothing more. Unfortunately, Internet Marketers tend to take things very, very personally rather than just accept things as a part of doing business.

        I guess I meant more hypothetically. Stigma or not, in a hypothetical scenario if we were to magically find a way to plot points of everybody's success vs everybody's refund rate as data points I take it everybody thinks there would be no a correlation at all. And yes, the results in the IM world would be different but that is the world I am curious about.

        I am not arguing either way, just curious what everbody's thoughts are. And again, I'm not saying whether people should or shouldn't refund, this is purely a hypothetical. And not saying there aren't tremendously successful people that are serial refunders and vice versa.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kris Turner
    If I buy something that is just plain awful (in any area, not just IM) then I'll refund it. It's not a bad investment if you were promised something and then it wasn't delivered. It's lying.

    I very rarely refund anything because I think twice before making any purchases where there's any uncertainty. But if I buy something that's terrible - refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author thebandman
    I agree, asking for refund isn't a fair thing to do for it means that the subscriber has subscribed to the product or service at his sole discretion and he cannot ask for refund as he has agreed to the terms and conditions, which holds true in most places.

    Asking for refunds is one of time consuming as well. I do not agree with the theory of refunds as a justifiable act. Because it depends on customer awareness! The customer is the one who should have been careful. It is not necessary for a seller to pay a refund.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        That's just about the stupidest thing I've read this week :rolleyes:
        I am going to have to say month.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by thebandman View Post

      I agree, asking for refund isn't a fair thing to do for it means that the subscriber has subscribed to the product or service at his sole discretion and he cannot ask for refund as he has agreed to the terms and conditions, which holds true in most places.

      Asking for refunds is one of time consuming as well. I do not agree with the theory of refunds as a justifiable act. Because it depends on customer awareness! The customer is the one who should have been careful. It is not necessary for a seller to pay a refund.
      thebandman,

      People the believe as you shouldn't even be in business.....

      1. S/He has agreed to what he BELIEVES are the conditions. If YOU breach the contract, DON'T expect HIM/HER to be held to it!

      2. It is NOT your right, or even ability, to declare what is justifiable.

      3. The customer can NOT be aware. That would require knowing the product and, if it is informational, they would have no reason to buy.

      4. The SELLER is the one that must be careful. Almost EVERY law limits what THEY can do! From how you can attract their attention, to what you can say/sell/provide, etc....

      5. Credit laws DO often REQUIRE the ability to get refunds. HECK, you have no proof they even ordered the item!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author gwriter
    I dont sell im products, just regular info products, and I do not offer refunds..

    You cant refund a book or dvd after you watch it in the real world,
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  • Profile picture of the author kendimann
    i bought several WSO and service from this forum and never did i ask for a refund until recently.

    just think about this guys, after 1 and a half months of wating, several extentions granted and lame excuses receibed from the seller, well i still dont have the website that i purchased last feb 24.

    if im in your place, would you do the same?

    we have different mindsets but i think i just did what is right.

    my view:

    only ask for a refund if the seller can not deliver the kind of service that he posted, especially if he's claiming that he is overdelivering his service
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    • Profile picture of the author BillyPilgrim
      Big Mike,
      I'm still waiting on the software from you guys that I paid for yesterday. I sent an email with PayPal info as well as the order itself. My time is limited and I wanted to use it for yesterday's campaign. I expected an automatic download yesterday and still nothing today. I don't want a refund, just the goods.
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      • Profile picture of the author BillyPilgrim
        Just heard from Big Mike and he sorted everything out. Now that's customer service! Thanks, Mike.
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