Are You Using And Abusing Your Filipinos?

95 replies
I am currently in the process of hiring some Filipinos to help me with my niche site content. After speaking with two of them in more detail I was shocked to hear they both got scammed out of their earnings from marketers who had found them on OnlineJobs.ph.

While the days are gone where I believed everything was rosy in the world, I can't believe some marketers abuse the ability to hire cost-effective, hard-working staff and then don't pay them for their work.

Please don't ruin the system by penny-pinching a few dollars here and there. As far as I'm concerned, these guys should be paid, even if you are not happy with their work. As it happens, they earn next to nothing anyway (compared to Western wages), so why deprive them of the little bit of freedom they have by working for you?

These guys have dreams, families, hopes and are prepared to work hard for us to help us in our ventures. They need to be treated with respect and dignity and not like some piece of scum.

Hearing from the two people made me livid actually. One worked for a full month and never got paid by her employee. That is so low.

Sorry guys, I'm ranting, but I get so angry hearing these stories.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this atrocity that goes on behind closed doors of far away lands.

Monika
#abusing #filipinos
  • Profile picture of the author FloridaRay
    I totally agree. Those who refuse to pay anyone are just ignorant. I wish more people thought like you so we would be in a better place. Regardless of quality, I always pay people for the time they spent.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheKeys
    That's dumb if they don't pay.. I can understand if they don't do the work but thats crazy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Unless you have hired these people and they have done work for you and delivered on time - you have only one side of the story.

      There are outsourcers who don't pay and they aren't confined to the Philippines. I'd ask why anyone would work for a full month without any compensation.

      There is no purpose in being angry over a business transaction you weren't involved in. There are bad outsourcers - and there are bad buyers. That shouldn't surprise any marketer.

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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

    I am currently in the process of hiring some Filipinos to help me with my niche site content. After speaking with two of them in more detail I was shocked to hear they both got scammed out of their earnings from marketers who had found them on OnlineJobs.ph.

    While the days are gone where I believed everything was rosy in the world, I can't believe some marketers abuse the ability to hire cost-effective, hard-working staff and then don't pay them for their work.

    Please don't ruin the system by penny-pinching a few dollars here and there. As far as I'm concerned, these guys should be paid, even if you are not happy with their work. As it happens, they earn next to nothing anyway (compared to Western wages), so why deprive them of the little bit of freedom they have by working for you?

    These guys have dreams, families, hopes and are prepared to work hard for us to help us in our ventures. They need to be treated with respect and dignity and not like some piece of scum.

    Hearing from the two people made me livid actually. One worked for a full month and never got paid by her employee. That is so low.

    Sorry guys, I'm ranting, but I get so angry hearing these stories.

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this atrocity that goes on behind closed doors of far away lands.

    Monika
    "Your Filipinos" :p Lol! I've never owned another person, Filipino or otherwise ... what's that like?

    Anyway yeah agree with your point, applies to any kind of employment, offshore or if you are hiring someone from your own country on a full-time contract.
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

      "Your Filipinos" :p Lol! I've never owned another person, Filipino or otherwise ... what's that like?

      Anyway yeah agree with your point, applies to any kind of employment, offshore or if you are hiring someone from your own country on a full-time contract.
      Got ya! You are of course right. It's not about ownership but respect. I have edited the title to avoid being thought of as a pimp in the future. Pimps own people - at least they think they do.

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bryan Douglas
      Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

      "Your Filipinos" :p Lol! I've never owned another person, Filipino or otherwise ... what's that like?

      Anyway yeah agree with your point, applies to any kind of employment, offshore or if you are hiring someone from your own country on a full-time contract.

      LOL I actually laughed out loud. So true.

      People are people. If someone does work, they deserved compensated. Period.

      Edit - People shouldn't be labeled as TheNightOwl stated below. It has nothing to do with where they are located/nationality. Enough said.
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    No, but I have experienced the opposite. I have paid a few filipinos and they have taken the cash and run.
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM View Post

      No, but I have experienced the opposite. I have paid a few filipinos and they have taken the cash and run.
      I suppose that's happening too as there are always two sides to a coin. I'd like to think if that happened to me they would have needed the money more than I did.

      As a matter of fact I will give them both a little advance bonus pay to restore their believe in human kind. After all, it's nothing much to me, except a good night out and I can easily forfeit this for a bigger cause.
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      • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
        Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

        I suppose that's happening too as there are always two sides to a coin. I'd like to think if that happened to me they would have needed the money more than I did.

        As a matter of fact I will give them both a little advance bonus pay to restore their believe in human kind. After all, it's nothing much to me, except a good night out and I can easily forfeit this for a bigger cause.
        I ran a sales office in Manila so got a few insights while I was there. There is a general culture over there where among some people it is socially acceptable to scam money as long as its from westerners. I am not saying everyone is like that, but there is a widespread feeling that they are being taken advantage of by being paid low wages while westerners make big profit margins on their efforts, so when they "take a little off the top" its not such a bad thing. I got used to being charged "caucasian rate" after a while. The truth of it is we are making good margins on the work they do.

        This is definately not the case for everyone, I have a great team working with me now from philippines, but you have to be careful whenever you are asked to pay money upfront. Sticking to sites like odesk usually eliminate these problems as they have rating systems and manage payments. Only unresolvable probelms I ever had was from people working outside of a contractor payment system.

        EDIT: the rating systems also allow rating of employers so this protects the worker also.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I believe in karma. The ones that take advantage of the Filipinos will get their pay back. I have not hired a lot of Filipinos, but the few I have hired are always eager to do my bidding and are constantly asking me how they can do to improve their performance. They are well worth the small price they charge.
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

    these guys should be paid, even if you are not happy with their work.
    Why do they deserve to get paid if they do crap work?
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by butters View Post

      Why do they deserve to get paid if they do crap work?
      Hi Lee,

      I hear you. However, could it be that your expectations are too high? We mustn't forget that not everyone is on the same level as we are when we hire staff. To expect the impossible right from the start wouldn't be fair.

      I'm not saying you did. I just know that many marketers do expect wonders from them in return for a few hundred dollars a month.

      The saying you get what you pay for does apply here too. But having said this, I think most of them are honest, hard-working people who'd do anything for you. Finding a rotten apple is part of the risk of outsourcing in general I believe.

      Hope you have better luck next time.
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

        Hi Lee,

        I hear you. However, could it be that your expectations are too high?
        And what makes them expectations pop into our head? It's their own words which fill our heads with the expectations, their sales copy makes them seem good, if they can't deliver what they promised then its their own fault. It's not expecting the impossible, it's expecting what they actually wrote and said what they can do. I wouldn't treat a filipino different to an Englishmen, if they don't provide the service promised, they are either doing it again or not getting paid. Maybe I am a bit of a hard ass I personally go to the local college and just get a few students to do the work .
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        • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
          Originally Posted by butters View Post

          And what makes them expectations pop into our head? It's their own words which fill our heads with the expectations, their sales copy makes them seem good, if they can't deliver what they promised then its their own fault. It's not expecting the impossible, it's expecting what they actually wrote and said what they can do. I wouldn't treat a filipino different to an Englishmen, if they don't provide the service promised, they are either doing it again or not getting paid. Maybe I am a bit of a hard ass I personally go to the local college and just get a few students to do the work .
          Hey Lee,

          Everyone to their own, but I'd like to mention that you hire these guys. Therefore you employ them and they work for you.

          As far as I can remember you don't get sacked from your day job when you burn the steak as a chef, or you can't kick a goal in a Champions League soccer match.

          The thing is, when we give these people a job we are to pay them for the time they are employed. If you are not happy with their performance long-term then by all means send them packing - but after you pay them.

          The one exception to the rule is if they don't do any work and fail to show you something for the time you pay them. That's why you ALWAYS use trial periods.

          Just my two cents.
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          • Profile picture of the author butters
            Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

            Hey Lee,

            Everyone to their own, but I'd like to mention that you hire these guys. Therefore you employ them and they work for you.

            As far as I can remember you don't get sacked from your day job when you burn the steak as a chef, or you can't kick a goal in a Champions League soccer match.

            The thing is, when we give these people a job we are to pay them for the time they are employed. If you are not happy with their performance long-term then by all means send them packing - but after you pay them.

            The one exception to the rule is if they don't do any work and fail to show you something for the time you pay them. That's why you ALWAYS use trial periods.

            Just my two cents.
            I understand that, but if I clearly lay out what I want done and they don't do it, then I will give them the option to fix it first of course but if the requirements ain't met to an ok standard, they wont get paid. I personally don't use people from 3rd world but I wouldn't treat them any different because they are from the third world.

            When someone applies for a job and takes it on under the specs I have laid out before they take that job and if they don't deliver, why do they deserved to get paid? If I done a crap job and didn't do what was required, I would be pissed, sure but I would understand why I didn't get paid and remember to do it different next time.

            If they mess up by my own miss-information, then sure, they will get paid because it was down to me on that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
              Originally Posted by butters View Post

              I understand that, but if I clearly lay out what I want done and they don't do it, then I will give them the option to fix it first of course but if the requirements ain't met to an ok standard, they wont get paid. I personally don't use people from 3rd world but I wouldn't treat them any different because they are from the third world.

              When someone applies for a job and takes it on under the specs I have laid out before they take that job and if they don't deliver, why do they deserved to get paid? If I done a crap job and didn't do what was required, I would be pissed, sure but I would understand why I didn't get paid and remember to do it different next time.

              If they mess up by my own miss-information, then sure, they will get paid because it was down to me on that.
              I agree - if you pay them per project and not a wage. Imagine this scenario for a minute:

              You book a table at your favorite local restaurant to take your sweetheart out for a nice meal. Because of the great food they cook, you have become somewhat of a regular in recent months and look forward to the evening.

              Unfortunately, the evening turns out to be an absolute disaster; the soup was salty; the steak was burned; and the coffee tasted like dishwater.


              As it happens, the kitchen brigade did a very poor job that night because they couldn't keep up with the orders. They sucked!

              So, my question to you is: "Do you think the guys in the kitchen did't get paid for that night?"

              The answer is: "Sure they did! They are employed (under contract) and despite the fact that they probably lost you as a good customer forever they got their money."
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by butters View Post

      Why do they deserve to get paid if they do crap work?
      Hi Lee,

      I hear you. However, could it be that your expectations are too high? We mustn't forget that not everyone is on the same level as we are when we hire staff. To expect the impossible right from the start wouldn't be fair. Even if they do crap work, the least you can do is pay them for their time (or parts of it).

      I'm not saying you did. I just know that many marketers do expect wonders from them in return for a few hundred dollars a month.

      The saying you get what you pay for does apply here too. But having said this, I think most of them are honest, hard-working people who'd do anything for you. Finding a rotten apple is part of the risk of outsourcing in general I believe.

      Hope you have better luck next time.
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    • Profile picture of the author timpears
      Originally Posted by butters View Post

      Why do they deserve to get paid if they do crap work?
      I will tell you why. You employed them. If you didn't interview them or somehow evaluate their competence for the job, then you screwed up in the hiring process. Both sides have responsibilities in in this arrangement. They are selling their time, and you used their time. If they didn't do the job right, then your evaluation for their suitability for the job was in error.

      Any time a person gets hired for a job, and then subsequently they get fired for what ever reason, the employer will have to pay them for the time they put in. I don't think hiring a person in another country should be any different. Of course, contracts can be structured based on the outcome, and that would be different. But as best as I understand it, the Filipinos are telling you what they can do, and you hire them based on your needs. Maybe you didn't explain your needs correctly. It is always a two way street.

      Hope that makes sense to you.
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      • Profile picture of the author retry
        Originally Posted by timpears View Post

        I will tell you why. You employed them. If you didn't interview them or somehow evaluate their competence for the job, then you screwed up in the hiring process. Both sides have responsibilities in in this arrangement. They are selling their time, and you used their time. If they didn't do the job right, then your evaluation for their suitability for the job was in error.

        Any time a person gets hired for a job, and then subsequently they get fired for what ever reason, the employer will have to pay them for the time they put in. I don't think hiring a person in another country should be any different. Of course, contracts can be structured based on the outcome, and that would be different. But as best as I understand it, the Filipinos are telling you what they can do, and you hire them based on your needs. Maybe you didn't explain your needs correctly. It is always a two way street.

        Hope that makes sense to you.
        I totally agree with all you say here
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by timpears View Post

        I will tell you why. You employed them. If you didn't interview them or somehow evaluate their competence for the job, then you screwed up in the hiring process. Both sides have responsibilities in in this arrangement. They are selling their time, and you used their time. If they didn't do the job right, then your evaluation for their suitability for the job was in error.
        I can understand that and ofc if it was my error then yes they deserve to get paid but my question was pointed towards if they do a crap job. Generally if they do a bad job, lets say article writing, if there is tons of mistakes, sentences don't make sense and so on then they lied on there sales copy or interview. I can only do so much but if they are over hyping there abilities why do they deserve to get paid?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Most people that get poor work completed for them are guilty of one of the following:

          1. They don't provide enough instruction
          2. They don't regularly check/review progress
          3. They are cheap - on the site that monika posted, you can choose which level of skill you want your employee to have. Most people bunch in beginner or any to try to find the cheapest possible rate for the job they are looking to have done.

          Unfortunately, most of the workers you will find there have English as a SECOND LANGUAGE so your chances of getting writing work done that is in perfect English etc is pretty slim.

          Sure, I've found them, and to use them I usually pay 20,000 PHP a month or somewhere around there. Same thing on sites like odesk and other freelance sites.

          If you go in and find someone for $1.50 an hour you can expect to have to make modifications and fixes for whatever work you have done. However, when you push up into the $4 - $6 hr range, you can actually get employees that know what the are doing and are for the most part competent to some extent.

          We actually at this point have a whole entire multi-media library of instructional videos that we provide to people that we hire to do work for us, and as part of the interview process, we always ask the people to provide a real time sample.

          For instance, If I was hiring a writer. As part of the interview, I give them a keyword and ask them to write me an article on the spot, so that I can time how long it takes, and get a feel for what their written English is like. If we are hiring someone to do wordpress installs, as part of the Interview, we ask them to install a wordpress blog, we time it, and check it when they are done.

          Basically, a majority of the time that bad work is completed for you, it is your own fault for not being diligent enough about making sure that the person you are hiring is able to meet your expectations.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by timpears View Post

        I will tell you why. You employed them. If you didn't interview them or somehow evaluate their competence for the job, then you screwed up in the hiring process. Both sides have responsibilities in in this arrangement. They are selling their time, and you used their time. If they didn't do the job right, then your evaluation for their suitability for the job was in error.
        I would pay no one for their time. I would pay for a product built to spec. No product built to spec, no pay. Keeps things real simple for me.

        As for evaluating their competence ... many people talk a great line and lie through their teeth. You're dealing with strangers who want money from you. Always work with a contract based on output.
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        • Profile picture of the author timpears
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I would pay no one for their time. I would pay for a product built to spec. No product built to spec, no pay. Keeps things real simple for me.

          As for evaluating their competence ... many people talk a great line and lie through their teeth. You're dealing with strangers who want money from you. Always work with a contract based on output.
          As I stated previously, you can structure contracts however you want, and that makes it different. But anyone that hires a freelancer, and doesn't test them with a short term job, I just don't understand that. If you do that, then you are wasting your time, and theirs.

          I only hire people through an agency. A fellow by the name of Jake, who has a thread in one of the other sections of this forum. I pay him up front, and the prices are very good, in my opinion. I got a three day test, and I was happy, and continue to be happy with what they do for me. But that is me. If they had done crap work, then I would not have gone back, but I bear some of the risk, as I should for my decision to hire them in the first place. It wasn't much of a risk though, as Jake had excellent reviews and feedback in the thread, so I was very confident in hiring them to do my work.

          They work for next to nothing, so pay them and don't have them do any more work for you. You ain't out a hell of a lot. As long as you test their abilities with a very short term job.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by timpears View Post

            They work for next to nothing, so pay them and don't have them do any more work for you. You ain't out a hell of a lot. As long as you test their abilities with a very short term job.
            I haven't done a lot of outsourcing lately, but people who do jobs for me, don't work for peanuts. I pay all a fair price for the job done well, whether they are American, Chinese, Filipino, Indian, Russian or whatever. I don't care what a country's economics are. I can't pay that kind of wage for a job well done. I don't normally tell them that up front, but surprise them with it at the end of the project. People who have worked for me are normally very anxious to get more work.
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Yes, all the world should work on spec for you.

      I understand.
      Make more sense...
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Why?

        Reading obviously isn't your strong point.
        No it isn't my strong point... Can you please dumb it down so my inferior brain can understand what you wrote, thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author WealthWithin
      Originally Posted by butters View Post

      Why do they deserve to get paid if they do crap work?
      Because you hired them!


      I once hired a girl through odesk to write 10 articles.
      She submitted the first article to me and I approved it.

      It took her about a week to write those articles but every 2 days she sent me an email informing on progress.

      But when I got the articles at the end I was dissapointed. They were full of grammatical errors and I wasn't going to post them without editing. Yet, I paid her without a delay because
      1.) I hired her,
      2.) it was clear to me without a doubt she honestly did her best to write those articles.

      So, let them go if the work is not good. But pay them for the work already done. I guess this applyies for all your employees - not just 'Filipinos'.

      The money you lost - consider that as a business expense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Blaze
    Turn this on it's head and i actually got scammed out of $300 from an outsourcer from onlinejobs.ph!

    So the coin lands on both sides.

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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      Originally Posted by Mark Blaze View Post

      Turn this on it's head and i actually got scammed out of $300 from an outsourcer from onlinejobs.ph!

      So the coin lands on both sides.

      Mark Blaze
      Welcome to the club. I got scammed out of $322 by a guy who posts on this forum, after he was chased off DP. He couldn't show his face there again after they exposed him as a complete scamming BS artist. He angered a lot of people over there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
    Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions View Post

    I hired an Indian girl few days ago, she had a tardiness problem so I fired her and paid her (it was thru Odesk) she fell bad that she wasted my time and she refunded me so now I feel bad.

    It's so twisted. lol
    Yes that is twisted indeed. I suppose you did the right thing nonetheless and that's what matters in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author retry
    I have a team of 8, all from the Philippines.
    They have been working for me for around 1 year, and I'm very happy with them.

    I got hold on them through bestjobs.ph. They write good english, much better than me, and does one hell of a job. All from 300-450$ a month.
    All I would like too say is that all the people I've hired have been very good. Maybe because I have a pretty "tough" interview round.

    I have offered them "healthcare plans"(In the Philippines people can buy private healtcare plans and insurance). This have been nothing more than an extra bonus of the amount of the healthcare plan.
    They also get vacation money.

    If they are happy, I'm happy!
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  • Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

    As far as I'm concerned, these guys should be paid, even if you are not happy with their work. As it happens, they earn next to nothing anyway (compared to Western wages), so why deprive them of the little bit of freedom they have by working for you?
    I am sorry but NO! I've hired a few of them an Geeeeez was it difficult to get a job done to ANY decent extent! This is a competitive world, and that applies to outsourced labor no matter how cheap they set their rates at (they choose their rates, not you).

    If I do a crappy job on my online ventures, do I generate any income? no I dont. If an outsourced freelancer does a crappy job, should he get paid?

    If you pay for crappy jobs, you're actually encouraging them to continue performing half-assed jobs... just because they're "cheap"...
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    • Profile picture of the author Skribblez
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      If you pay for crappy jobs, you're actually encouraging them to continue performing half-assed jobs... just because they're "cheap"...
      Who's forcing you to keep on paying them? Noone.

      It's just living up to your end of the deal.

      If they didn't provide work to your expectation, you probably didn't bother interviewing them or doing any type of quality control beforehand, so you mostly only have yourself to blame.

      If you are not happy with their work, just pay them to get it over and done with and go your separate ways. Is it really that hard?
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  • Profile picture of the author arklove
    In all business transactions think win-win.
    What additional skills or tools could you share with potential business partners/ employees as you assist others to improve their lives. A natural outcome is you will also benefit... Ark
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I think that bottom line is that you should always test. Start your new hire off with a small job, to evaluate your choice to hire them. If they do well, then give them more work and obviously pay them, and give them a little bonus. If they do crappy work, then pay them and tell them their services are no longer needed.

    If you don't test your marketing plans, then you pay the price. Same goes for hiring these folks to do your work for you. You need to test their abilities. There are always three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

    As far as I'm concerned, these guys should be paid, even if you are not happy with their work. As it happens, they earn next to nothing anyway (compared to Western wages), so why deprive them of the little bit of freedom they have by working for you?

    Monika
    I don't agree that you need to pay for work that is not up to specifications. Scams run both ways and there are just as many providers that take jobs that they cannot complete to spec as there are buyers who don't pay. I'm all for paying and I normally pay more than the going rate for offshore work. I don't believe in paying pennies just because someone is offshore, but I don't believe in paying anything for crappy work.
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I don't agree that you need to pay for work that is not up to specifications. Scams run both ways and there are just as many providers that take jobs that they cannot complete to spec as there are buyers who don't pay. I'm all for paying and I normally pay more than the going rate for offshore work. I don't believe in paying pennies just because someone is offshore, but I don't believe in paying anything for crappy work.
      Please read my reply to Lee just before. You employ them, they work for you, you pay them, regardless of the quality. That's why you must check their work daily and if they suck for a couple of weeks part ways. But not paying them while they are in your employ is a crime.
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      • Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

        Please read my reply to Lee just before. You employ them, they work for you, you pay them, regardless of the quality. That's why you must check their work daily and if they suck for a couple of weeks part ways. But not paying them while they are in your employ is a crime.
        Whatever suits your business. As far as I am concerned, when I shell out money I expect results, not some half-assed effort from someone who claims to be proficient in PHP and then leaves you with a mess of a code riddled with bugs (I've had SO MANY of those!).

        So again, as far as I am concerned, if there's no quality there's no pay.
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        • Profile picture of the author Vanquish
          Really sad to see things like that happen but in every area of life and every industry their will be scummy and crooked people. The Filipinos are very loyal and hard working people and will often go the extra mile to get the outsource task done for you so it sucks to see them exploited like this. Especially since they often send money to their families and the money they earn from IM goes towards basic living expenses.

          What you have to remember is what goes around, comes around.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

        Please read my reply to Lee just before. You employ them, they work for you, you pay them, regardless of the quality. That's why you must check their work daily and if they suck for a couple of weeks part ways. But not paying them while they are in your employ is a crime.
        [b]And please read my reply./[b] That's not the way I do business and never has been. I do not pay for time. I pay for output. My contracts with any outsources are for product. A specific price for a specific product. You don't deliver the product, I don't deliver the payment. It's a simple concept and it works and it eliminates wondering what offshore providers are doing all day while being paid.

        Graphic designers and web designers have been paid in this manner for eternity, as do many consultants. Pay for performance. While working as a graphic designer on Elance, I received progress payments. I showed them the progress, they showed me the money. So you can go ahead and pay for time and pay them regardless of output, but I don't.
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        • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          [b]And please read my reply./[b] That's not the way I do business and never has been. I do not pay for time. I pay for output. My contracts with any outsources are for product. A specific price for a specific product. You don't deliver the product, I don't deliver the payment. It's a simple concept and it works and it eliminates wondering what offshore providers are doing all day while being paid.

          Graphic designers and web designers have been paid in this manner for eternity, as do many consultants. Pay for performance. While working as a graphic designer on Elance, I received progress payments. I showed them the progress, they showed me the money. So you can go ahead and pay for time and pay them regardless of output, but I don't.
          I see where you are coming from. If that's the arrangement you have then fine. Most employers don't. They contract these guys with the intention of working with them for the long-term (not on a project basis). At least that is my belief.

          I'm speaking about contracts and honoring the fact that if you appoint them to your business, then please make sure you pay them for the time they were in your employ.
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  • Profile picture of the author Maddi
    I have had a similar experience recently while interviewing a filipino and that he had not been paid and had pretty much the same story.
    For me, I don't expect world class quality but I don't even accept a substandard one.

    If there was a problem and the work turned over was not satisfactory it shouldn't take any one a month to recognize that and the opinion can be voiced and at least given a warning. But not paying them is totally out of question because their quality of work is directly related to your interviewing capabilities and their expected salary.

    You can set your standards in the start and have your expectations very clear during the interview process. Look at their previous work and require them to email you with details of work done daily. Also provide training wherever needed to enhance their skills, after all the better they get the more money you make.

    my 2 cents.

    Maddi
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  • Profile picture of the author SEOExpert104
    Only Bast**** don't pay, I hired 2 filipinos , and in fact they did a really good job tbh!
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  • Profile picture of the author jamespitt
    I've just lived in the Philippines for 3 years setting up an outsourcing company. Filipinos are lovely people, but it's hard to imagine how tough their lives are. The money you pay will likely go towards supporting their whole family. It's great that they have the chance to work their way towards a better life by working on the internet. You'll find that they'll be paying for their siblings to go to school etc out of the money you send. It really is very rough not to pay them for the work they do.

    That said - you could get yourself in a mess dealing with some Filipinos. It's like employing a builder here in the UK - sometimes you're going to get a bad apple who walks off with the money you have spent. At least they won't leave you with a hole in the roof!

    Anyway - you always have a choice of using an outsourcing company (like mine), spending a bit more and not having to worry about being ripped off or the quality. Otherwise, you have to deal with the cowboys and the Indians.

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Why the F*** you would hire someone, get them to do the job for you and then not pay them.

    I wish we had an online police for crimes like that , I really do.
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  • Profile picture of the author billionareHuman
    Unfortunately they need to get a bit more saavvy and protect themselves.

    For a new employer they can request weekly payments for the first month, at least there is only the chance that they will have worked only 1 week for free not a whole month.

    Any reasonable employer will understand their request and if they want the employees skills they should oblige.

    On top of that even though I pay them weekly through paypal from my credit card, it means I only pay my credit off once a month so essentially I am paying only once a month from my side. I found they are much more happy and productive getting paid weekly! who wouldn't be? it's extra motivation.
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    • Profile picture of the author davidjames42973
      Great post by the way. I have a team of workers who work 40 hours a week. I hire them to do tedious but simple work and have videos already created that show them how to do specific tasks. There are times where they don't understand the videos, so I have to explain it to them in a better way that they'll understand. But after awhile, the system I have laid out is completely automated because my team knows what needs to be done week after week. Honestly, I think I could disappear for a couple weeks without email and they would know what they need to do. I say a couple weeks because I'm sure they'd quit if I didn't pay them every 2 weeks.

      A couple rules that I stress to them all the time is I need to hear from them daily and I need a report from them daily. If I don't hear from them that day, I assume that they're not working.

      As for the hiring process, I ask for samples and then hand them the most difficult task I can give them. They'll either get the work done, or I'll never hear from them again.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArnelRicafranca
    Thanks for pointing that out. I am filipino myself. I am actually looking for hire filipinos to help out my country. Regardless, you should pay your employees, contractors, etc. No reason for not paying.
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  • Profile picture of the author petehols
    I Have hired a few filipinos and the best way I have came to do is that they get paid on a weekly basis to start. A couple of the people I hired didn't really do much work for the first 2 weeks so they got 2 weeks wages and I got some work and we parted company.

    I think that if you are candid and upfront right from the start with them. Tell them what you expect etc then there really isn't a problem. They then know what is required from them and if they don't do it they don't have a job with you in the future. I would still pay them because that is what employers do.

    Just my 2c worth

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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingSPY
    We use a great Filipino outsource. I'll not tell anyone in here because I want them all to myself. (smile)

    Happy Trails!
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  • Profile picture of the author davebirchall
    That's why its good to use escrow like on elance or similar. It protects both parties and there is visibility on quality.
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  • Profile picture of the author LiamMcIvorMartin
    I have 5 people on my team, all from the Philippines and here is (in my opinion) how you get loyal hard working and intelligent people.

    Get your people through onlinjobs.ph, odesk, guru, elance etc
    Interview AT MINIMUM 10 people and boil it down to three
    Give them a paid test (PAY THEM UP FRONT) and inform them that they are in a competition with others. I like to get them to install wordpress on a domain I own and customize the theme without any instruction from me.
    Choose your 1 or 2 employees from that pool and give them a clear understand of the tasks they will perform before they accept the position
    Test them for another two weeks, if they don't work out, fire them and pay them for the work they've done.

    Don't be an A-hole, 90% of the time YOU are the problem. You haven't given them clear instructions or helped them produce high quality work. Just remember, if an employee isn't working out it's your fault and you should pay for your mistakes.

    LM
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  • Profile picture of the author magneticweb
    Why employ Fillipinos if it's not to take advantage of their low wage level?

    Isn't it time we all faced up to the fact that outsourcing work to the furthest parts of the world where the price is going to be the cheapest only serves to support a system of economic slavery, where we are all in competition with the world's lowest paid workers?

    Isn't that why all the factories in the West are closing down, why whole industries are dying, why we have a horrific balance of payments problem, and why all the countries of the West are drowning in debt? Might it not also be why many of us here on the Warriors forum are struggling to earn a living on the internet, having been displaced from jobs that have been "outsourced" to countries where labour is cheap?

    And it's all been done in the name of "free trade", a system that makes slaves of us all. Before long, we'll all be on the Fillipino wage level, unless we realise that the Emperor doesn't actually have any clothes.

    I suggest we give all our outsourcing work to people in our own respective countries, who might even be related to ourselves, if we but go back a few generations. Not that I wish harm to Fillipinos, or anyone else, but by paying just a little bit more in the short term might start to save the long term prospects of ourselves and our children and grandchildren.
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by magneticweb View Post

      Why employ Fillipinos if it's not to take advantage of their low wage level?

      Isn't it time we all faced up to the fact that outsourcing work to the furthest parts of the world where the price is going to be the cheapest only serves to support a system of economic slavery, where we are all in competition with the world's lowest paid workers?

      Isn't that why all the factories in the West are closing down, why whole industries are dying, why we have a horrific balance of payments problem, and why all the countries of the West are drowning in debt? Might it not also be why many of us here on the Warriors forum are struggling to earn a living on the internet, having been displaced from jobs that have been "outsourced" to countries where labour is cheap?

      And it's all been done in the name of "free trade", a system that makes slaves of us all. Before long, we'll all be on the Fillipino wage level, unless we realise that the Emperor doesn't actually have any clothes.

      I suggest we give all our outsourcing work to people in our own respective countries, who might even be related to ourselves, if we but go back a few generations. Not that I wish harm to Fillipinos, or anyone else, but by paying just a little bit more in the short term might start to save the long term prospects of ourselves and our children and grandchildren.
      You know, we could argue slave labor all we want. In the end we are trying to run a business. This includes making a profit. Failing to do so will see another business bite the dust to become a statistic among the millions of others.

      I actually employ a staff of around 10 writers. All these guys are from native English speaking countries and all of them are paid wages as you'd expect them to be paid in the Western world.

      My guys live in Australia, the US, UK, Spain (former UK), Romania (former UK), Alaska and Canada. As you can see, I do not simply hire Filipinos for slave labor, but to run my growing niche empire in an economical matter that makes sense, while allowing me to keep my profits in the black figures.

      Another issue you'd have by paying these guys US wages is the problem it will create within their country. Just think about it. If you paid someone a yearly salary of $40,000+ in the Philippines don't you think it would create all sorts of issues for that person and the people around it?

      I know for a fact that $10,000 allows a person over there to live a very comfortable life.

      Having said this, I have absolutely no issue paying my new team over there a decent income (according to their living standards).

      What you said really is a two-sided sword. From where I stand I'm giving someone over there the chance of living a better life. Doesn't that account for anything in your eyes?
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      • Profile picture of the author magneticweb
        Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

        Another issue you'd have by paying these guys US wages is the problem it will create within their country. Just think about it. If you paid someone a yearly salary of $40,000+ in the Philippines don't you think it would create all sorts of issues for that person and the people around it?

        I know for a fact that $10,000 allows a person over there to live a very comfortable life.

        Having said this, I have absolutely no issue paying my new team over there a decent income (according to their living standards).

        What you said really is a two-sided sword. From where I stand I'm giving someone over there the chance of living a better life. Doesn't that account for anything in your eyes?
        I wasn't suggesting you should pay US or Western wages to people in the Philippines. I was suggesting you pay the going rate to people in your own country. The people of the Philippines are probably happier and more suited to doing work for their own people anyway, though you can't blame them for trying to improve their lot by playing on the greed of foreigners.

        As to giving someone over there the chance of a better life, what about giving your own people a fair crack of the whip? Don't you have any unemployment in Aussie?
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        • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
          Originally Posted by magneticweb View Post

          As to giving someone over there the chance of a better life, what about giving your own people a fair crack of the whip? Don't you have any unemployment in Aussie?
          Indeed we do have unemployment. I guess it would be a fair estimate to say all countries have unemployment issues.

          I'm not sure what makes you say I'm not employing my own people??? If you go back to the start of this thread you will see that I happen to employ a healthy amount of people in the Western world. Plus your choice of words is a little condescending to say the least.

          What do you mean stating "giving people a fair crack of the whip?"

          Is that How YOU treat your employees? If so, then I'm afraid you need to learn a thing or two about treating employees with the respect they deserve. I treat all my employees fair and just and always hand them bonuses for a job well done.

          It also goes without saying that I sack them if they don't perform to my standards. But I would never financially abuse an employee of mine, nor would I "crack the whip" as you so condescendingly stated.

          Contrary to your belief that every employee who outsources work to the Philippines is a devilish, greedy being, you couldn't be further from the truth.

          From where I'm standing (us) fair employers are giving these people a fair chance to live a dignified and quality life by paying them above average wages for their country. Don't you think that's fair? I do. From where I stand I empower my staff to have the freedom to work from home, instead of them having to worry about paying their next bill - and despite your obvious negative opinion of everyone who outsources work to these countries myself (and I'm sure most others) treat them fairly with decent pay and respect.
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        • Profile picture of the author rg0205
          I would get into debate with you given that I find your comments to be very condescending and ignorant but I've decided to just have a good chuckle that at least there are a great number of people on the WF and around the world, for that matter, who have an open mind and do not feel "entitled" just because they live in a more developed country and have a different color of skin.



          Originally Posted by magneticweb View Post

          I wasn't suggesting you should pay US or Western wages to people in the Philippines. I was suggesting you pay the going rate to people in your own country. The people of the Philippines are probably happier and more suited to doing work for their own people anyway, though you can't blame them for trying to improve their lot by playing on the greed of foreigners.

          As to giving someone over there the chance of a better life, what about giving your own people a fair crack of the whip? Don't you have any unemployment in Aussie?
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    • Profile picture of the author goldblogger
      Originally Posted by magneticweb View Post

      ...only serves to support a system of economic slavery...
      *Rolling Eyes and Chuckling*

      My half-Filipina daughter and I thought your post was overly-dramatic and ignorant.

      A good worker being paid in dollars or pounds can live like a king where the cost of living is so low.
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      • Profile picture of the author rg0205
        LOL - ditto.


        Originally Posted by goldblogger View Post

        *Rolling Eyes and Chuckling*

        My half-Filipina daughter and I thought your post was overly-dramatic and ignorant.

        A good worker being paid in dollars or pounds can live like a king where the cost of living is so low.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM View Post

      No, but I have experienced the opposite. I have paid a few filipinos and they have taken the cash and run.
      Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

      I suppose that's happening too as there are always two sides to a coin. I'd like to think if that happened to me they would have needed the money more than I did.


      Maybe the outsourcer who stiffed your Filipinos needed the money more than they did.

      As a matter of fact I will give them both a little advance bonus pay to restore their believe in human kind. After all, it's nothing much to me, except a good night out and I can easily forfeit this for a bigger cause.
      What bigger cause.....being a sucker? Here's a thought....did you ever consider the possibility that they were lying to you?

      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      I will tell you why. You employed them. If you didn't interview them or somehow evaluate their competence for the job, then you screwed up in the hiring process. Both sides have responsibilities in in this arrangement. They are selling their time, and you used their time. If they didn't do the job right, then your evaluation for their suitability for the job was in error.

      Any time a person gets hired for a job, and then subsequently they get fired for what ever reason, the employer will have to pay them for the time they put in. I don't think hiring a person in another country should be any different. Of course, contracts can be structured based on the outcome, and that would be different. But as best as I understand it, the Filipinos are telling you what they can do, and you hire them based on your needs. Maybe you didn't explain your needs correctly. It is always a two way street.

      Hope that makes sense to you.

      Ummm....yeah. If I hire you to do a, and you don't do a, you're not getting paid. I don't buy people's time, I buy what I need them to do during that time....if I was looking for some time to buy, I'd just hire my dog....or the newly planted Japanese Maple in my front yard.

      And by the way, a contractor from the Philippines, or India, or the USA for that matter, isn't an employee. If I hire a building contractor to build my house a certain way and he doesn't do it, guess what? He ain't getting paid either.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheNightOwl
    There's some wild political ranting in this thread (no surprise there! LOL!), alongside some cogent and practical advice for both freelancers and employers of freelancers/outsourced labour. But...

    (as at least one person has referenced already)

    ... can people please STOP using "possessive adjective + Filipina/Filipino" when referring to freelancers from the Philippines?

    Please.

    Really widespread in IM. Not just on this board. And I find it highly objectionable, personally. Surely, I can't be the only one.

    If you or I wrote in a thread "I had my graphic designer do blah blah blah..." readers most likely wouldn't bat an eyelid.

    But if I wrote, "I had my Canuck do blah blah blah..." or (even without using potentially pejorative terms) "I had my Brit do blah blah blah..." or "My New Zealander did blah blah blah..." people might just do a wee double-take and -- rightly -- think of me as more than a little anachronistic; inadvertently belying notions of servitude and caste.

    Suggestion: "I employed a graphic designer from the Philippines and blah blah blah..." or "My ghost writer in the Phillipines [if, indeed, mentioning nationality is at all relevant in the first place!] did blah blah blah..."


    TheNightOwl
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    • Profile picture of the author Monika Mundell
      Originally Posted by TheNightOwl View Post

      There's some wild political ranting in this thread (no surprise there! LOL!), alongside some cogent and practical advice for both freelancers and employers of freelancers/outsourced labour. But...

      (as at least one person has referenced already)

      ... can people please STOP using "possessive adjective + Filipina/Filipino" when referring to freelancers from the Philippines?

      Please.

      Really widespread in IM. Not just on this board. And I find it highly objectionable, personally. Surely, I can't be the only one.

      If you or I wrote in a thread "I had my graphic designer do blah blah blah..." readers most likely wouldn't bat an eyelid.

      But if I wrote, "I had my Canuck do blah blah blah..." or (even without using potentially pejorative terms) "I had my Brit do blah blah blah..." or "My New Zealander did blah blah blah..." people might just do a wee double-take and -- rightly -- think of me as more than a little anachronistic; inadvertently belying notions of servitude and caste.

      Suggestion: "I employed a graphic designer from the Philippines and blah blah blah..." or "My ghost writer in the Phillipines [if, indeed, mentioning nationality is at all relevant in the first place!] did blah blah blah..."


      TheNightOwl
      I stand guilty for doing exactly that myself and would have already updated the thread title if I could. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to edit the title. If it is, then I shall do this ASAP.

      I totally hear you and you are right of course. It's a bad habit, even so it was never intended to be possessive in the meaning of things. Can you forgive me?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

        I stand guilty for doing exactly that myself and would have already updated the thread title if I could. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to edit the title. If it is, then I shall do this ASAP.

        I totally hear you and you are right of course. It's a bad habit, even so it was never intended to be possessive in the meaning of things. Can you forgive me?
        With that attitude it should be easy. Have you clicked advanced and looked up the top? That doesn't work?
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    • Profile picture of the author Calamaroo
      Originally Posted by TheNightOwl View Post


      ... can people please STOP using "possessive adjective + Filipina/Filipino" when referring to freelancers from the Philippines?

      Please.

      Really widespread in IM. Not just on this board. And I find it highly objectionable, personally. Surely, I can't be the only one.
      TheNightOwl
      Hey Owl:

      I'll trade you two of my Filipinos to 3 of your Filipinos.

      On a serious note. Filipinos are probably the most overqualified workers on the planet. Many Filipino nurses in the US are former MDs that, frankly, could kick any US trained Doctor's butt. And they usually do a few years later once they get their US medical licenses. Many Filipina maids in Hong Kong are college educated former teachers. I mean, what better deal than to have a nanny that can teach kids reading riting and rithmetic at a professional level. I know many Filipino paralegals (lawyers in their home country) working in the US who after passing the bar will probably take a lot of business away from their current employers. They are that good.

      A big reason for this underpaid treatment is because their politicians are so corrupt that they basically suck dry the local opportunities within the Philippines. Naturally, the Filipinos leave for better place only to begin at a much lower level than they are qualified. Of course, in a few years they do tend to catch up.

      It's partly the Filipino citizen's fault because they just suck at picking their leaders. In fact, as I type this, a third grade educated boxer is on the verge of becoming a congressman. How sick is that? This guy has absolutely ZERO qualifications and he is about to win!!!!! He'll probably lose to Floyd Mayweather later this year once his busy congressman schedule starts interfering with his boxing. And of course his boxing will no doubt interfere with his leadership roles.

      For now, let us pay the Filipino outsourcers their dues.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by TheNightOwl View Post

      There's some wild political ranting in this thread (no surprise there! LOL!), alongside some cogent and practical advice for both freelancers and employers of freelancers/outsourced labour. But...

      (as at least one person has referenced already)

      ... can people please STOP using "possessive adjective + Filipina/Filipino" when referring to freelancers from the Philippines?

      Please.

      Really widespread in IM. Not just on this board. And I find it highly objectionable, personally. Surely, I can't be the only one.
      For the record you aren't. I am a little confused though. I thought that title was changed. I am still seing "Your Filipinos" or did you mean something else?
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  • Profile picture of the author badboy_Nick
    Originally Posted by Monika Mundell View Post

    I am currently in the process of hiring some Filipinos to help me with my niche site content. After speaking with two of them in more detail I was shocked to hear they both got scammed out of their earnings from marketers who had found them on OnlineJobs.ph.

    While the days are gone where I believed everything was rosy in the world, I can't believe some marketers abuse the ability to hire cost-effective, hard-working staff and then don't pay them for their work.

    Please don't ruin the system by penny-pinching a few dollars here and there. As far as I'm concerned, these guys should be paid, even if you are not happy with their work. As it happens, they earn next to nothing anyway (compared to Western wages), so why deprive them of the little bit of freedom they have by working for you?

    These guys have dreams, families, hopes and are prepared to work hard for us to help us in our ventures. They need to be treated with respect and dignity and not like some piece of scum.

    Hearing from the two people made me livid actually. One worked for a full month and never got paid by her employee. That is so low.

    Sorry guys, I'm ranting, but I get so angry hearing these stories.

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this atrocity that goes on behind closed doors of far away lands.

    Monika
    Although I can't do nothing but agree with you here ... this is just one example of robbery, theft and welshing on payment.

    How about the banks with their CDOs? How about ENRON? How about the whole mess in IRAQ? Now THAT is your tax dollars at use with unmatched efficiency

    It happens everywhere, whether small or large scale.

    Any questions let me know

    Nick
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  • Profile picture of the author YanKirby
    That's just so bad to hear. I have to agree with monika here.

    You think filipino virtual assistants are hardworking? Wait till you see filipino farmers. Makes you wanna think twice how much youre willing to spend for your next meal.

    We have a piece of land down south, and the farmers we have there work for like 10 hours a day under hot and humid tropical sun and they are not paid until the next harvest. But mind you, you will NEVER EVER hear or even feel they are complaining. They've got families to feed and lives to live.

    The bottom line:
    The work ethics filipino workers show is one of a kind (not just saying coz im a flip myself but ive been to a couple of neighboring countries and never felt the eagerness).

    Pay fairly. That's the least you can do.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    A new company is in beta rolling out a "tell all" consumer reports kind of site for professionals across all industries including marketing and internet marketing. Anyone will be able to log in and post a response to the person's profile, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, it won't be deleted.

    Think of it as "Google Side Wiki" for business professionals the world over.

    Best to treat people fairly and with a level of respect.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Sorry but I am not going to pay a freelancer who fails to deliver.

    I hired two people at elance to write on a technical subject. One delivered and the other didn't. In fact, they copied most of their work. By not paying them for poor work might keep them from doing it in the future. Elance agreed with me.

    I can gaurantee that if you paid someone to paint your house white and they used green, you wouldn't pay them. If you do, you're a fool.

    Now, I have paid programmers for work not completed. The reason I did, they kept trying to fix it. I was tired of dealing w/ them though. So I paid in full and moved on.

    Remember, there is a difference between subcontractors/freelancers and employees.

    Garrie
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    No. I don't even have any Filipinos that I am aware of.
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  • Profile picture of the author freudianslip27
    Based on conversations I've had with a few outsourcers, it seems like they are too trusting and just greatful for the work. I've communicated to them that they need to be more careful, I'm not sure if its a cultural thing or what. Look at all the scammers out there. I've been burned and am now careful.

    It seems to be a trend, and there are people out there that are terrible and play on that. Outsourcers should collect money upfront!

    Matt
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    • Profile picture of the author ARVolund
      I really think it depends on how your outsourcing is structured and what is agreed to upfront.

      If I go to elance or odesk or wherever and post a particular job that needs to be done and someone accepts the job they do not get paid until the job is done to my previously explained expectations.

      If I am paying somebody by the hour or week and they are not as productive as I think they should be then I pay them for their time and let them go and find someone that is more productive.

      If someone bids on or accepts a very specific job for a specific amount of money then it really falls on them to both make sure that the job falls within their skill set and that they understand what is needed before taking on the job.

      If you are hiring somebody by the hour then it falls more on you to make sure that they are being productive and not wasting time when they are supposed to be working by getting daily updates etc.


      I do not know about other countries but not paying an hourly employee in the US for doing a crappy job is not allowed. They work they get paid, if they suck at their job you let them go and hire somebody else but you still have to pay them for their time.

      Richard
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  • i totally agree.

    @ $4/hour, try them out for 10 hours. if they suck, cut them loose. if they're awesome, give them a raise and keep them around!
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  • Profile picture of the author tylerdrun
    Well, how do you find these people to hirE? Do they do articles? And why do they charge cheap???
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  • Profile picture of the author JoeFox
    I have a team of 8, all from the Philippines.
    They have been working for me for around 1 year, and I'm very happy with them.

    I got hold on them through bestjobs.ph. They write good english, much better than me, and does one hell of a job. All from 300-450$ a month.
    All I would like too say is that all the people I've hired have been very good. Maybe because I have a pretty "tough" interview round.

    I have offered them "healthcare plans"(In the Philippines people can buy private healtcare plans and insurance). This have been nothing more than an extra bonus of the amount of the healthcare plan.
    They also get vacation money.

    If they are happy, I'm happy!
    I was happy too to see the response from my fellow Internet Marketers here. Yes, I agree. We should pay them for the job they've done for us. It was definitely our responsibility whatever the reason is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
    I think it is disgraceful not to pay them, regardless of what job they do I would still pay them every penny, "losing" the amount of money we would pay them means nothing to us but would probably mean everything to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_R
    I treat my two workers like gold because they do a terrific job for me and I am most appreciative of their time and energy.
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  • Profile picture of the author affilorama-portal
    I was born in the Philippines and I work for Affilorama, and I can proudly tell everyone on earth that Affilorama is the best! And because of that I do my very best for Affilorama.
    That's how it is with people from the Philippines: treat us well and we give back the best service. Treat us unfairly, and soon you will not be able to get anyone of us to work for you anymore, and that's a pity because we are among the most efficient workers all over the world.
    The country does need more effective leadership and I hope that this year's elections will fulfill that need.
    And did I mention that the Philippines is very beautiful? You should visit some time.
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  • Profile picture of the author rg0205
    This is a great post, I must say.

    I think it's offensive that a lot of internet marketers seem to associate "cheap" as "not worthy" or "not good enough" - something to that effect.

    First off, we all know that different countries have different standards of living. The dollar against the Philippine peso or Indian Rupees cannot be ignored because while a dollar may seem cheap to some, it's actually enough to feed a family of four for a day. That doesn't mean that the people who are from those countries are not "good employees".

    Truth be told, I've been an active listener and buyer of different IM products/ videos and one thing that irks me about some internet marketers, some who happen to even be "gurus", is that there is discrimination. They discriminate, sometimes, I think even by race.

    One said ___________ are better than ___________ (Indians/ Filipinos) - whatever have you. I am not going to fill in the blanks but it's just an example. Another even commented on the strong accents. - Who the bloody heck cares if they have an accent provided that they deliver exemplary work and need not do cold calling?

    I have to agree that regardless, whether or not the employees deliver good work, they must be compensated. Isn't it why we "test" before we send regular orders? And, I'm sure we've all been employees at one point or another and not one of us is perfect. I'm sure we all have made mistakes in our jobs at a certain point but nonetheless we were paid or compensated - why should it be any different?

    The money spent on employees from developing countries, most especially in article writing isn't at all significant. $1 per article or more is peanuts.

    The important thing in outsourcing is to be very clear with your expectations, then give the person a "test" to see if he/she fairs well.

    I have to agree that it's just so low to scam them out of their work. It's pathetic.
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  • Profile picture of the author shurets1
    I have dealt with 3 Filipinos from the same website you're referring to...
    1 of them didn't provide the needed output, but she got paid because I felt that she did her best. The other two were excellent (and got paid of course).
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  • "Are You Using And Abusing Your Filipinos?"

    Aside from obviously abusive ways: yes you are, if you're paying them standard local wages without:

    1) employee benefits like health insurance and social security investments...

    2) retirement benefits...

    3) a life-work balanced competitive working environment...

    4) an office with resources and an environment for them to work with their colleagues as well as to look up to their seniors and learn from them...

    5) promotions and rewards/incentives for exceptional performance...

    6) higher rates for additional properly completed work or overtime hours...

    7) on-the-job training and management...

    8) extensive hands-on weekly training sessions...

    9) monthly mindset formation and character developmental sessions...

    and

    10) monthly personal and company goal developmental sessions.

    An option would be to pay them higher wages than standard local wages since you can only do most stuff mentioned above if you have a locally registered business and office site/s.

    What if you don't pay them higher wages than standard local wages without the stuff mentioned above?

    1) While they're working with you, they will most likely look for other projects to augment their income and even other employers who can provide them standard local wages with everything above.

    2) They will leave you once they find a better opportunity.

    3) They could become more improved employees of your competitors, and with better employees: your competitors gain the upper hand, you totally lose yours, hands down.

    EDIT: Everything above = these aren't theories or inferences - these are results from my tests, observations and experience worth more than 3 years of micromanaging up to 120 Filipinos, my colleagues and fellow countrypeople, working with my client corporations and individual businesspeople, all while with my eyes closed, which could possibly mean my observations are more accurate?

    Hope this helps.
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    • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
      Originally Posted by Marx Vergel Melencio View Post

      Aside from obviously abusive ways: yes you are, if you're paying them standard local wages without:


      3) a life-work balanced competitive working environment...

      4) an office with resources and an environment for them to work with their colleagues as well as to look up to their seniors and learn from them... .
      To create an office in philippines legally (as a foreigner) without giving up majority stake to a local citizen you need to create a foreign multinational entity. This requires investment of around $150,000. I doubt many people are in a position to do this.
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      • Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM View Post

        To create an office in philippines legally (as a foreigner) without giving up majority stake to a local citizen you need to create a foreign multinational entity. This requires investment of around $150,000. I doubt many people are in a position to do this.
        It's $250K.

        You can however register a partnership company, a non-resident alien and a Filipino citizen, each with 50% controlling power, and just pay $120++ each for the company bank account minimum balance, as long as more than 50% of your products/services are sold overseas, not locally.

        If you don't know a Filipino citizen who can be your partner, "partner" with an officially registered company with a proven track record of success working with large corporate clients and have been operating in the industry for more than 3 years - that's the safest shortcut you can take.

        Hope this helps.

        Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    It's not economic slavery. To pay more than the 'going' rate can put someone into a distressful situation. Especially as humans tend to live to the level of their pay, and if for any reason you stop over-paying them (or paying them at all because you go out of biz, retire or change outsourcers), you put their futures at risk if you have been over paying due to some mis-guided moral dilemma..

    also... I need to buy me a couple of Filipinos.
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    • Profile picture of the author rg0205
      If that last line of yours was a joke, I don't find the humor in it. People, no matter, what race they are are NOT commodities.

      Originally Posted by DogScout View Post


      also... I need to buy me a couple of Filipinos.
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  • Profile picture of the author sparrow
    Have respect for other human beings, you wouldn't want to treated this way

    Like anything else in the world you need to test and take small steps with new people

    All the outsourcers I use all get small projects and get paid regardless, when they do great a bonus is always warranted

    If you hand someone a months amount of work and at the end of the month your not satisfied you waited to long to find out, you would of screened them out in a day or two if you broke your work down in small amounts

    So how do you eat an Elephant (one bite at a time) test

    Ed
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
    Even if it's not a Filipino.. You should pay anyone you outsource as long as she/he do the job.
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  • Profile picture of the author gakuse
    It's a vice versa scenario. I had paid a 50% payment to a Filipino company 3 days ago and till now I have receive nothing from them. They were supposed to send me daily report.
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  • Profile picture of the author jedz
    Banned
    I really feel for them because we have experienced the same thing. After we deliver their desired output they didn't even pay us any single penny..
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  • That's true retry, most of the Filipinos are hardworking and I agree with Monika, once you build strong relationships with your staffs, their loyalty remains with you. If somebody who hires filipino and you are not happy with the work that you want them done, you can teach them and you'll see it's worth it.
    We are humankind, no matter what race or religion or country we came from... there are good and bad...I wish there aren't. The choice is ours, we are all human that grows old and die eventually then why not help one another instead and live a happy lives?
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
    Excellent thread. It's all too easy for some people to see outsourced workers as automated tools that they can abuse.
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  • Profile picture of the author emeliesjodahl
    I think you should be clear on the terms when you hire someone. If the work isn't good enouth, what happens then? You have to agree to something before you do the deal
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  • Profile picture of the author DeonKrey
    Most of the good and helping words have been said and done already but I'm on Monika's side. The employer-freelancer relationships will always be revolving around the situation of paying for what your freelancer have worked once you've hired him/her. I mean, that's the law!

    Also, you have already agreed of certain considerations and specifics right from the start so both of you shouldn't be yelling at each other's work or attention in the end. Thus, it would all work on a two-way process: You hire, they work. They work, you pay.
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  • Profile picture of the author JonAlfredsson
    Hi there, I've heard of this issue many times and it is really abusing. Some marketers "not all" of course, do exist in this kind of game. I have talked to many Filipinos and yes, many of them were not paid.. This is the reason why too, that some of them demand for every week payment and strongly disagree with once a month payment.

    It is yet true that they deserve to be paid of their hard work.
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