Internet Ethics-I'm Struggling-What do You Think?

60 replies
Hello Fellow Warriors,

I respect your opinions, so I am going to throw this out there and see what comes back at me.

I think most of you know that I bought the rights to a great course back in February called Book Flips. If you aren't familiar with it, it is about creating a physical book on Amazon, and a matching website, and then flipping the entire package.

I know that "piracy" is not really totally frowned upon in the internet world. In fact, it is expected that if you put a product out there, someone will improve upon it, and put their own version out for sale.

It's the nature of the beast, and I do understand that.

BUT... I have run into a situation where someone has NOT improved upon my product, but only repackaged the same product and has sold it both as a WSO and is now putting it on Clickbank and recruiting affiliates here on the Warrior Forum.

I actually bought the person's WSO and even posted a review in his thread. I tried to be nice, but also said that there was nothing new.

Now my question is this: how far is someone allowed to go in copying another product before it becomes an infringement? I maybe should have jumped on this from the beginning, because it was very obvious that this guy's product wasn't unique at all.

I guess I was lulled into a false sense of security because he said he was only going to sell a certain number of copies and then it would be gone forever.

Now he has put it on Clickbank.

Not to put too fine a point on it... I am pissed.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Teresa
#ethicsim #internet #strugglingwhat
  • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
    I think I know which WSO you're talking about... unfortunately all I can really say is that this person may have bought the rights to the exact same course and started selling it.

    As far as WSOs are concerned, they're supposed to be ORIGINAL products you created, not a product you bought rights to (whether resale, MRR or PLR). If it was your original creation, I'd suggest making some noise to the help desk about it (since you can't directly call the person out), but other than that, probably the most you could do is give an infraction/report for breaking WSO rules.
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    • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
      No, the person didn't buy the same rights. This was not a MRR situtation. I bought EXCLUSIVE rights to the course on Flippa. Meaning I bought the copyright.

      The other person was a CUSTOMER of the course. Then he did a video "follow along" of himself doing the course and sold it as a new product.

      The only problem is, he isn't selling it on Clickbank as a "case study" product, but as if he created the concept, which he DID NOT.

      (Neither did I by the way, but I DID purchase the original concept for a very hefty sum.)
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      • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
        Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

        No, the person didn't buy the same rights. This was not a MRR situtation. I bought EXCLUSIVE rights to the course on Flippa. Meaning I bought the copyright.

        The other person was a CUSTOMER of the course. Then he did a video "follow along" of himself doing the course and sold it as a new product.

        The only problem is, he isn't selling it on Clickbank as a "case study" product, but as if he created the concept, which he DID NOT.

        (Neither did I by the way, but I DID purchase the original concept for a very hefty sum.)
        Sending you a PM.
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    • Profile picture of the author DogScout
      Originally Posted by moneysoapbox View Post


      As far as WSOs are concerned, they're supposed to be ORIGINAL products you created, not a product you bought rights to (whether resale, MRR or PLR). If it was your original creation, I'd suggest making some noise to the help desk about it (since you can't directly call the person out), but other than that, probably the most you could do is give an infraction/report for breaking WSO rules.
      I have seen WSO's that the seller was too lazy to even take the original author's name off of it, and sell it here as a WSO about SEO with a copyright of 2002. How pertinent to reality could that be?
      There are some great WSOs, unfortunately the rules are blatantly ignored and not enforced. (Which in order to enforce, I understand you would probably need a lot of people) but as it is buying a WSO is a hit and miss proposition. (IMHO)
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

        as it is buying a WSO is a hit and miss proposition. (IMHO)
        Substitute the letters WSO for any information product.

        The WSO forum is a marketplace like any other. Same risks, same care and due diligence needs to be taken.

        Peace

        Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author thesuccesscoach
    interesting. my first thought was that the other person had bought the same rights as you but this is not the case, however are you 100% sure, as some marketers may only release 1 exclusive licence but this may not be the case.

    if the person is using the exact same content word for word there might be a case to tell clickbank, however if they have changed it somewhat perhaps there is not.

    to be honest in all the im products i have bought most are the same concept just worded differently which would not be illegal as such!

    Hope this makes some sense
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  • Profile picture of the author callumcoutts
    this is what you are looking for.

    h**p://clickbank.com/dmca.html

    same law and takedown method applies to this forum and any or all other websites he may try to use to sell on.
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    • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
      For anyone curious about this:

      I bought the website and product on Flippa in February. Here is a quote from some communication with the original owner on the Flippa listing:
      Posted by: tjmiller (+8) Date:Thu, Feb 04 2010

      Tony,
      I have been adjusting the copy on the website to reflect myself as the owner. I know that many people who take over websites with an existing product would just change the name at the bottom and leave it at that. I have never been comfortable with that approach, though, so to get around the issue of it being your product, and your proof of income I left your (first)name within the copy.
      I think that I have done it in such a way that you won't mind, but if you would take a look at the site now and let me know what you think, I would appreciate. If you would rather I take your name off completely, I will.
      Thanks for everything!
      Teresa
      Posted by: tn33 (+7) Date:Fri, Feb 05 2010

      Hi Teresa
      Yeah, I'm perfectly happy with that. One thing I might be tempted to add would be:
      "Then he decided to pass on the reins of his system to someone else. Now I, being the smart gal that I am, jumped at the chance to take this great program and run with it, so I purchased the EXCLUSIVE rights to it. You can't buy this system anywhere else online!"
      I'd maybe add that last bit as you wouldn't want people thinking I've sold it to more than one person and they'll go looking for it.
      All the best
      Tony
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    • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
      Thanks, callumcoutts for this...I think I will be able to use it!


      Originally Posted by callumcoutts View Post

      this is what you are looking for.

      h**p://clickbank.com/dmca.html

      same law and takedown method applies to this forum and any or all other websites he may try to use to sell on.
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  • Profile picture of the author callumcoutts
    no problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    that's the problem oin the Net....anything goes. Talk about the Wild West. Laws.....almost toothless.
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    • Profile picture of the author callumcoutts
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      that's the problem oin the Net....anything goes. Talk about the Wild West. Laws.....almost toothless.
      well actually it really doesnt, intellectual property is taken quite seriously these days.
      if a website infringes you go to the host or provider of the platform.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Well, that sucks for you...but, do you know the person you bought the rights from? Maybe they sold the "exclusive" rights more than once? Do you know if they wrote the course, or could have they bought the course and put their own name on it? I'm not doubting you, just questioning how well you know the person you bought the rights from, because maybe that person wasn't being honest.

    Just a thought...
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    • Profile picture of the author callumcoutts
      opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880048_en_1
      ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-about/c-history/c-history-anne.htm
      ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-about/c-auto.htm
      ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-original.htm
      ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-about/t-protect/t-protect-unreg/t-protect-passingoff.htm

      this is how it works where i live.
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  • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
    I don't doubt the person I bought the rights from.

    And the person selling the WSO didn't claim ownership of the product. In fact, he made it clear that he was a buyer of the original course. He sold the WSO as a "case study" that "filled in the gaps" of the original course.

    But.... the facts of the matter is that he did nothing new... filled in no gaps... he simply went through the steps of the course on video and called it a new product.

    And then on his website and clickbank offering, he even removes any reference to the original course at all. He makes it sound like he created the course.

    The more I think about this, the more I am sure that I will pursue this issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

      But.... the facts of the matter is that he did nothing new... filled in no gaps... he simply went through the steps of the course on video and called it a new product.
      Technically, from what you've said here, it is a new product. He made videos of his own that show the same steps as your course.

      You can't copyright the steps.

      If he is reading your book as the soundtrack of the video, you have a valid claim. If he is just saying to do the same things you said to do, you don't... because while you have the rights to a course, you don't own any rights to the steps of that course. Nobody does.

      This sounds like honest competition. Granted, it's a little iffy in terms of politeness and social propriety, but it really doesn't sound ethically or legally iffy at all... and I don't think the DMCA is appropriate. The DMCA is about you enforcing your copyright, and you don't have one here. Indeed, after him removing all reference to your course, the only thing you can legitimately claim is that the product is a derivative work - which could be argued - and it could not have been made without reference to your product.
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      • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Technically, from what you've said here, it is a new product. He made videos of his own that show the same steps as your course.

        You can't copyright the steps.

        If he is reading your book as the soundtrack of the video, you have a valid claim. If he is just saying to do the same things you said to do, you don't... because while you have the rights to a course, you don't own any rights to the steps of that course. Nobody does.

        This sounds like honest competition. Granted, it's a little iffy in terms of politeness and social propriety, but it really doesn't sound ethically or legally iffy at all... and I don't think the DMCA is appropriate. The DMCA is about you enforcing your copyright, and you don't have one here. Indeed, after him removing all reference to your course, the only thing you can legitimately claim is that the product is a derivative work - which could be argued - and it could not have been made without reference to your product.
        I think that I am going to have to disagree a bit with you here. I know, usually I don't disagree with you Caliban but...

        US Copyright Office Circular 14: Derivative Works notes that:
        A typical example of a derivative work received for registration in the Copyright Office is one that is primarily a new work but incorporates some previously published material. This previously published material makes the work a derivative work under the copyright law. To be copyrightable, a derivative work must be different enough from the original to be regarded as a "new work" or must contain a substantial amount of new material. Making minor changes or additions of little substance to a preexisting work will not qualify the work as a new version for copyright purposes. The new material must be original and copyrightable in itself. Titles, short phrases, and format, for example, are not copyrightable.
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        • Profile picture of the author petelta
          Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

          I think that I am going to have to disagree a bit with you here. I know, usually I don't disagree with you Caliban but...
          Your Copyright law would apply to the actual language and wording used not the system he used.

          You will see quite a few "case study" products that are just the program they bought rehashed with them using it.

          It's going to be more worth your time to deliver more traffic to your offer instead of fight this guy in my opinion.
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          • Profile picture of the author callumcoutts
            Originally Posted by petelta View Post

            Your Copyright law would apply to the actual language and wording used not the system he used.

            You will see quite a few "case study" products that are just the program they bought rehashed with them using it.

            It's going to be more worth your time to deliver more traffic to your offer instead of fight this guy in my opinion.
            If you made a video about selling soap on put it on clickbank and stole the exact system that amway owns the copyright on would you get away with it?
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            • Profile picture of the author petelta
              Originally Posted by callumcoutts View Post

              If you made a video about selling soap on put it on clickbank and stole the exact system that amway owns the copyright on would you get away with it?
              I'm not a lawyer in any sense, so you would have to talk with someone who knows more about this then I. But as I understand it, if they created a video about selling soap that was in their wording and in a different format, they would be in the clear.

              Look at every IM video product out there. It is a rehash of what someone has already sold in written form.

              Like CDarklock said, it's going to be how the court interprets it which in most cases like this means there is no case.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by petelta View Post

                Like CDarklock said, it's going to be how the court interprets it which in most cases like this means there is no case.
                The biggest problem is that the attorneys involved will blow shocking amounts of your time and money on legal manoeuvering, then ultimately walk into a room where the judge makes a decision. There's so much difference from one judge to another that you pretty much can't predict the outcome until the case is on the docket, which generally takes years.

                Many IP lawyers have chosen the specialty for this exact reason. Most cases are protracted and expensive, and will be dropped long before they reach court anyway.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                  When it comes to forum legal advice Allen Says is right on:

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...Nw3K2XhCbpyMBF

                  As to the ethics of it. I like all the parties involved here so it's tough to comment on this but personally, I think Teresa has a right to be upset.

                  Teresa could have created her own course especially when she saw it on Flippa but she did the right thing and bought the exclusive rights for it (and not for chump change).

                  She's been adding value to it and offering those updates for free to past customers. And now suddenly someone else put out the same exact course. Instead of buying the exclusive rights they just put out their own version.

                  Legal? I dunno. I'm not an attorney. The ethics of it? I don't know either we all have different ethical compasses but I wouldn't have felt comfortable hijacking another person's course and put out my version of the same course and selling it for a lot cheaper.

                  There are a lot of courses on creating info products, website flipping, CPA, etc. so I can see how it can be a gray line.

                  This has been an eye-opener for me about buying exclusive rights to products. Seems like that doesn't apply online.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

          I think that I am going to have to disagree a bit with you here. I know, usually I don't disagree with you Caliban but...
          The problem with derivative works is that they are a highly complex question which really MUST be dealt with by an attorney. The question of whether a work is "really" derivative simply isn't answerable by the layman except in the most clear-cut of cases, and even then there can be subtleties unknown to anyone outside of the IP law field.

          I've been sued four times for copyright infringement, because I make music like this. Amazingly enough, the cases never see the inside of a courtroom... because it's unclear whether they're really derivative of the original works. And you can't say I didn't copy the originals exactly; hell, I admit to it, because after all that was the entire point. So if that's unclear, what about someone who does claim not to have copied your work exactly?

          Copyright lawsuits are very long, very expensive, and always in doubt. In addition, they carry a certain "guilty until proven innocent" component which can do significant damage to the alleged infringer's business, which he can by law recover. You need to do a serious analysis of how important this is to you, and how clearly liable this other person really is. And, honestly, you can't really do that without an attorney.
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          • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


            Copyright lawsuits are very long, very expensive, and always in doubt. In addition, they carry a certain "guilty until proven innocent" component which can do significant damage to the alleged infringer's business, which he can by law recover. You need to do a serious analysis of how important this is to you, and how clearly liable this other person really is. And, honestly, you can't really do that without an attorney.
            And THAT, Caliban, I VERY MUCH agree with you on! Serious analysis begins...
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      • Profile picture of the author callumcoutts
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Technically, from what you've said here, it is a new product. He made videos of his own that show the same steps as your course.

        You can't copyright the steps.

        If he is reading your book as the soundtrack of the video, you have a valid claim. If he is just saying to do the same things you said to do, you don't... because while you have the rights to a course, you don't own any rights to the steps of that course. Nobody does.

        This sounds like honest competition. Granted, it's a little iffy in terms of politeness and social propriety, but it really doesn't sound ethically or legally iffy at all... and I don't think the DMCA is appropriate. The DMCA is about you enforcing your copyright, and you don't have one here. Indeed, after him removing all reference to your course, the only thing you can legitimately claim is that the product is a derivative work - which could be argued - and it could not have been made without reference to your product.

        http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Feist_v._Rural_Telephone

        Are you talking about this?
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    • Profile picture of the author petelta
      Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

      But.... the facts of the matter is that he did nothing new... filled in no gaps... he simply went through the steps of the course on video and called it a new product.
      If it's his original content as in taping him speaking and his video, then there's not much you can do. This is a different product then yours.

      This is done in every market especially the IM market. Look at all the how to build an internet business products.

      Edit: CDarklock posted same thing right before I did
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  • Profile picture of the author Mrs S
    I'm not a lawyer so can't comment from that angle but this sounds like IP theft/copyright infringement. I'd take legal advice and look at maybe a cease and desist notice to have his website taken down.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

    I know that "piracy" is not really totally frowned upon in the internet world. In fact, it is expected that if you put a product out there, someone will improve upon it, and put their own version out for sale.
    If you have a product, protect it. If this is exclusively your product, issue a DMCA to the host where his site is. Report the WSO thread to admin. Contact Clickbank and tell them and issue a DMCA to them as well.

    Don't know anything about DMCA's? domainingdiva.com has instructions:
    http://domainingdiva.com/legal-issue...ipoff-artists/

    Piracy is frowned upon in the Internet world.

    Do something about it.

    If this is PLR/MRR, then it isn't your product exclusively and the only violation is the WSO TOS stating that it should be your own product. Clickbank violation as well, but that's not really your problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      If you have a product, protect it. If this is exclusively your product, issue a DMCA to the host where his site is. Report the WSO thread to admin. Contact Clickbank and tell them and issue a DMCA to them as well.

      Don't know anything about DMCA's? domainingdiva.com has instructions:
      http://domainingdiva.com/legal-issue...ipoff-artists/

      Piracy is frowned upon in the Internet world.

      Do something about it.

      If this is PLR/MRR, then it isn't your product exclusively and the only violation is the WSO TOS stating that it should be your own product. Clickbank violation as well, but that's not really your problem.
      Thanks very much for that Suzanne. After much consideration, what I have decided to do is this:

      I will contact the individual directly first to let him know my intent to send DMCA letters to his hosting company and to Clickbank if he doesn't take down the site/product. That way, I am giving him the option to preserve his reputation.

      If he refuses, then I proceed with the DMCA.

      Thank you all for your input. You have helped me to see this thing more clearly.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
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        Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

        Thanks very much for that Suzanne. After much consideration, what I have decided to do is this:

        I will contact the individual directly first to let him know my intent to send DMCA letters to his hosting company and to Clickbank if he doesn't take down the site/product. That way, I am giving him the option to preserve his reputation.

        If he refuses, then I proceed with the DMCA.

        Thank you all for your input. You have helped me to see this thing more clearly.
        You might want to make sure you have a legitimate DMCA complaint first, which in my opinion, you don't. Filing bogus DMCA complaints because you can't handle the competition makes you worse than he is, especially when he/she technically isn't even doing anything wrong. And if I'm not wrong, there is a penalty for filing bogus complaints. If the person is smart, they'll make sure the proper authorities are aware of what you're doing.
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        • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          You might want to make sure you have a legitimate DMCA complaint first, which in my opinion, you don't. Filing bogus DMCA complaints because you can't handle the competition makes you worse than he is, especially when he/she technically isn't even doing anything wrong. And if I'm not wrong, there is a penalty for filing bogus complaints. If the person is smart, they'll make sure the proper authorities are aware of what you're doing.
          If you have been following ALL of this thread, you will see that I have kind of backed off this (EARLY) comment, because of some of the other input I have received. I have no intention of filing a bogus anything, that is not my style.

          Also, this is not about "not being able to handle the competition," it is about what is morally right or wrong. The guy basically ripped off my course. It may not be "technically" wrong, but I find it reprehensible.

          I have also been told by another warrior (via pm and I won't name him) that he will not promote the copycat course because he also feels it is wrong. I appreciate and respect marketers with those kind of ethics, and wish there were more like that.

          Unfortunately, there seems to be an ever-growing trend of "let's see how much we can steal" in this industry. I personally don't like it. You wouldn't either if it happened to you, I'm sure.
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          • Profile picture of the author zaarenoc
            After reading what your seller said I would think you definitely had a case of copyright infringement. I would jump on him hard. Why should he make a cent on your product unless he is your affiliate.

            Doug
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
            Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

            You wouldn't either if it happened to you, I'm sure.
            It has happened to me. Many times.

            And I bet every other internet marketer here is the same.

            I know it sucks. But that's the way business is.

            How many affiliate marketing products have you seen that say the same stuff? How many dating products?

            Weight loss basically comes to "eat right and exercise". If no one else could ever duplicate that the market wouldn't exist.

            How many books on copywriting do you think I've read that say the same thing? Doesn't stop me buying them... because even one new point is useful.

            I honestly don't see what you're crying about here... you can't REALLY protect a vague idea. You can try; but it isn't really feasible to hold it up in court (especially since it's unlikely the guy who stole your idea has much cash anyway).

            Now, there might be something I'm missing here. But it's the nature of the industry. If you can't handle it, get into a different field... because it happens non-stop.

            I respect that you wouldn't do it yourself. However, as the saying goes "Don't hate the player... hate the game."

            Your stuff WILL be copied. Everyone's is. Instead of whining about it you need to market and position yourself as the market leader.

            -Dan
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            • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
              Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

              It has happened to me. Many times.

              And I bet every other internet marketer here is the same.

              I know it sucks. But that's the way business is.

              How many affiliate marketing products have you seen that say the same stuff? How many dating products?

              Weight loss basically comes to "eat right and exercise". If no one else could ever duplicate that the market wouldn't exist.

              How many books on copywriting do you think I've read that say the same thing? Doesn't stop me buying them... because even one new point is useful.

              I honestly don't see what you're crying about here... you can't REALLY protect a vague idea. You can try; but it isn't really feasible to hold it up in court (especially since it's unlikely the guy who stole your idea has much cash anyway).

              Now, there might be something I'm missing here. But it's the nature of the industry. If you can't handle it, get into a different field... because it happens non-stop.

              I respect that you wouldn't do it yourself. However, as the saying goes "Don't hate the player... hate the game."

              Your stuff WILL be copied. Everyone's is. Instead of whining about it you need to market and position yourself as the market leader.

              -Dan
              Hey Dan, I see where you're coming from. But I think part of the problem is that we let them get away with it and that is why it's become a "nature of the industry". I've done the same thing let shoddy characters get away with things because I don't want to waste time with negative pursuits but each time we let them get away with it they get more brazen because there are no consequences.

              So I don't think it's right to tell Teresa to "stop whining" she should be applauded for taken a stand and protect her business when most of us just roll over and let them stick it to us.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
                Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

                Hey Dan, I see where you're coming from. But I think part of the problem is that we let them get away with it and that is why it's become a "nature of the industry". I've done the same thing let shoddy characters get away with things because I don't want to waste time with negative pursuits but each time we let them get away with it they get more brazen because there are no consequences.

                So I don't think it's right to tell Teresa to "stop whining" she should be applauded for taken a stand and protect her business when most of us just roll over and let them stick it to us.
                Alan,

                I kind of get where you're coming from but the issue here is that nothing illegal has happened.

                And even if it had, legal battles cost a LOT of money... and you need to sue someone who HAS money.

                Copyright doesn't apply to vague ideas. Obviously I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice, but copyright protects the exact words you use (or art or whatever), not a general idea.

                You can patent industry secrets, I believe, but in order for that to stand up you need to show you never contributed to revealing those secrets. Selling an ebook containing said secrets would certainly breach that clause.

                It's not a battle worth fighting. Heck, it's not even a battle that CAN be fought because the guy has done nothing wrong. Like Loren said, he filled a need in the market

                So my point isn't necessarily that Teresa should just roll over and take it; it's that the guy has done nothing legally wrong (ethically it's subjective) and there's nothing she CAN do.

                Instead of trying to stop healthy and fair competition, you have to stay one step ahead of it. That's what marketing is all about.

                -Dan
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                • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
                  Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

                  Then he did a video "follow along" of himself doing the course and sold it as a new product.

                  The only problem is, he isn't selling it on Clickbank as a "case study" product, but as if he created the concept, which he DID NOT.

                  (Neither did I by the way, but I DID purchase the original concept for a very hefty sum.)
                  The problem is, you can't copyright a "concept". Check with your lawyer, but ideas are free for all. The only time you can take legal action is when you actually have patented or developed some kind of tangable plan or product.

                  Dan (above) said it best.

                  Really, this guy you're talking about is walking a fine line, but truthfully he DID create his own product...and used your idea to base it around.

                  Although, I see your point...if he didn't add any value to it, then I think you could probably take some legal action.

                  The big question is...did you have any disclaimers in place and legal notices on the site you sold it from, and attached the the product? If so, did they cover this issue?

                  I think this is a grey area, and probably one for the lawyers to pick apart.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                  Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

                  Alan,

                  I kind of get where you're coming from but the issue here is that nothing illegal has happened.

                  And even if it had, legal battles cost a LOT of money... and you need to sue someone who HAS money.

                  Copyright doesn't apply to vague ideas. Obviously I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice, but copyright protects the exact words you use (or art or whatever), not a general idea.

                  You can patent industry secrets, I believe, but in order for that to stand up you need to show you never contributed to revealing those secrets. Selling an ebook containing said secrets would certainly breach that clause.

                  It's not a battle worth fighting. Heck, it's not even a battle that CAN be fought because the guy has done nothing wrong. Like Loren said, he filled a need in the market

                  So my point isn't necessarily that Teresa should just roll over and take it; it's that the guy has done nothing legally wrong (ethically it's subjective) and there's nothing she CAN do.

                  Instead of trying to stop healthy and fair competition, you have to stay one step ahead of it. That's what marketing is all about.

                  -Dan
                  I agree. I really don't know if it's legal or illegal. And probably in the end an attorney would say it's just not worth it spending money if there is even a case. I'm not an attorney so I just don't know.

                  And that applies to a lot of things not just IM. I used to work for corporate America and they wouldn't fire dead weight employees because it wasn't worth the legal hassle so they coasted on by like leeches. Sucking off the hard work of others.

                  The OP already posted she's backing off her OP but as to "ethics" definitely bad karma IMO. But at least she brought up the issue. Hopefully it will make others think.

                  It's made me think. When I first saw the other product I also bought it. And it's a good product but so is the original. Nothing new has been added. I didn't think of the fact that someone paid her hard-earned money to legally buy exclusive rights to the product just to have someone siphon it.

                  But you're right. That's why there is a Kindle...then a Nook...iPad...
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Maybe this guy bought the product before you acquired the rights to it?...

    And then expanded on it to produce his own works?...

    I'm not saying he is legit, but it would appear that the person you purchased the rights from, has appeared in the WSO thread, stating his approval?... which says to me that he seems OK with it?...

    Just a few thoughts of mine, not saying any of it is right or wrong..

    Peace

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    It's not illegal to make a product about how to use a product. I can
    understand why you're pissed.

    Do you think Wordpress should sue the people who write books about
    how to use Wordpress? After all, Wordpress has a site which tells
    you how to use the software.

    I haven't looked at your course, but you know, some people can't
    read (really) and only can understand video-type instruction. If you
    didn't provide that in you course, you left a gap in the market by
    not catering to semi-literates.
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    • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Maybe this guy bought the product before you acquired the rights to it?...

      And then expanded on it to produce his own works?...


      Jay
      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

      It's not illegal to make a product about how to use a product. I can
      understand why you're pissed.
      Yes, I can kind of go along with the idea of "expanding on the original" or "this is how I used the original" which is what he did with his WSO and even though I wasn't crazy about that, because REALLY he didn't provide any new information, he just video taped himself doing the original steps.

      What has me kind of steaming now, is that he has put the product on Clickbank, has built a website around it, and is actively recruiting affiliates in the JV section here on the forum; all claiming the concept as his own, with no reference at all to the original.
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      • Profile picture of the author netmatrix
        Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

        ...claiming the concept as his own, with no reference at all to the original.
        I would take a screenshot of any posts/comments he has made, including the website.
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

      Agreed, why is it not here?
      Ask the buyers
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      Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I just wonder how the crap gets there in the 1st place. One member at my forum just recommended a WSO and I bought it to be sure it was a good one to protect my member.

    Sure, I don't have 17,000 members, but if I was unable to protect them, I wouldn't want 17.000 members... at any price. If I was unable to protect them, I wouldn't have a forum.

    Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot of good here and over all the mods appear to do a great job. Allen seems to be one of the few ethical marketing forum owners, but going into the WSO section is like going into a cesspool and if I were him, I wouldn't allow half that crap to be associated with my name.
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  • Profile picture of the author dallas407
    Here's my 2 cents:

    1 - Do whatever you can to get his site taken down. You may not be able to.

    2 - Find a way to add to your version so it's worth a premium so you can charge more, or add a backend so your customer value is higher. Then recruit affililiates just like he is but pay them more (because now you can afford to)

    3 - Start aggressively marketing it, and out-market him. Beat him that way

    4 - Or, a variation of Idea 2 is add so much value to it that people would rather buy your version of it, and keep it at the same price. So you're offering 10x the value for exactly the same price.

    Beat him at his own game
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  • Profile picture of the author nemesis
    I kind of agree with those saying "...get some legal advice..." in this situation. Tings are not clear cut.

    Wishing I was a lawyer so I could help more but...
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  • Profile picture of the author storesecured
    I would go straight to clickbank and tell them about it. They are pretty good about customer service at least from a purchasers point of view. But I do think I read in their TOS that they won't tolerate anything like this.
    What did the person who stole it have to say?
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  • Profile picture of the author JorgeD
    Looks like he's selling the product at Clickbank for the same amount as the WSO. Isn't that against the rules?

    I seem to remember he's the same guy who basically copied an idea from Bob Serling and sold it as a WSO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

    Hello Fellow Warriors,

    I respect your opinions, so I am going to throw this out there and see what comes back at me.

    I think most of you know that I bought the rights to a great course back in February called Book Flips. If you aren't familiar with it, it is about creating a physical book on Amazon, and a matching website, and then flipping the entire package.

    I know that "piracy" is not really totally frowned upon in the internet world. In fact, it is expected that if you put a product out there, someone will improve upon it, and put their own version out for sale.

    It's the nature of the beast, and I do understand that.

    BUT... I have run into a situation where someone has NOT improved upon my product, but only repackaged the same product and has sold it both as a WSO and is now putting it on Clickbank and recruiting affiliates here on the Warrior Forum.

    I actually bought the person's WSO and even posted a review in his thread. I tried to be nice, but also said that there was nothing new.

    Now my question is this: how far is someone allowed to go in copying another product before it becomes an infringement? I maybe should have jumped on this from the beginning, because it was very obvious that this guy's product wasn't unique at all.

    I guess I was lulled into a false sense of security because he said he was only going to sell a certain number of copies and then it would be gone forever.

    Now he has put it on Clickbank.

    Not to put too fine a point on it... I am pissed.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks,

    Teresa
    Teresa:

    File DMCA's with everyone you can....hosting, search engines, link partiners, domain registrar, etc.

    Also, contact clickbank and get him shut down there too.

    And get ahold of Allen, and get his Warrior Forum access ganked.

    If he lives in the US (I'm assuming you do) consider suiing through Federal Court system.
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  • Profile picture of the author Laura B
    I've been reading this thread with interest because I'm sure it will happen to me at some point too. I understand why some say not to waste time or money chasing down the offenders because the odds are stacked against you, but on the other hand, I find the idea of just accepting it as a part of business very distasteful. I think we need to keep fighting piracy or the baddies are going to take over completely. If there were immediate consequences of some kind, more people might think twice about ripping off someone else's work. Idealistic? Yeah, probably. But don't the idealistic sometimes change the world?
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    To me, this is the equivalent of:

    1. Buying/ripping a new blockbuster movie
    2. Adding your own subtitles
    3. Interlacing parts of the movie with your personal review
    4. Selling the end product to others

    Other people still get the blockbuster movie, but the money doesn't go to the film company who paid money and time to create it.

    I am sure there are laws in place to cover this across all industries. I don't see why it would only apply to certain industries.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
      Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

      To me, this is the equivalent of:

      1. Buying/ripping a new blockbuster movie
      2. Adding your own subtitles
      3. Interlacing parts of the movie with your personal review
      4. Selling the end product to others

      Other people still get the blockbuster movie, but the money doesn't go to the film company who paid money and time to create it.

      I am sure there are laws in place to cover this across all industries. I don't see why it would only apply to certain industries.
      It's more like you ripping off a story but changing all the words so only the message remains the same.

      If I make a James Bond knockoff about a spy who is sexy to women, does dangerous crap and saves the world, would I get sued by Ian Fleming?

      No... and even if I did it wouldn't hold up in court.

      There are no laws in place (that I know of) that cover someone else taking your basic idea.

      In fact, ripping off other people's ideas is the essence of progress... people improving upon things that come before it.

      Kind regards,

      -Dan
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      • Profile picture of the author zaarenoc
        Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

        It's more like you ripping off a story but changing all the words so only the message remains the same.

        If I make a James Bond knockoff about a spy who is sexy to women, does dangerous crap and saves the world, would I get sued by Ian Fleming?

        No... and even if I did it wouldn't hold up in court.

        There are no laws in place (that I know of) that cover someone else taking your basic idea.

        In fact, ripping off other people's ideas is the essence of progress... people improving upon things that come before it.

        Kind regards,

        -Dan
        So if I take Deezy's 'Facebook Doorway' copy it, add a few personal touches, change the name to "Facebook Conquered" and market it as my own... that would be ok?

        Doug
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
          Originally Posted by zaarenoc View Post

          So if I take Deezy's 'Facebook Doorway' copy it, add a few personal touches, change the name to "Facebook Conquered" and market it as my own... that would be ok?

          Doug
          So long as it's in your own words, yeah. If you copied and pasted it and just changed a few words, that might be grounds for plagarism.

          But if the IDEAS are the same, but in your own words... you're golden.

          Does that make it right? I don't think so, although some would disagree.

          My point is legally speaking it's fine, based on the studying I've done on copyright and IP laws in the US and Australia.

          -Dan

          P.S. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
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          • Profile picture of the author zaarenoc
            Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

            So long as it's in your own words, yeah. If you copied and pasted it and just changed a few words, that might be grounds for plagarism.

            But if the IDEAS are the same, but in your own words... you're golden.

            Does that make it right? I don't think so, although some would disagree.

            My point is legally speaking it's fine, based on the studying I've done on copyright and IP laws in the US and Australia.

            -Dan

            P.S. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
            Well that sucks. I can imagine how I would feel if I spent 6 months putting together a product for sale, prepare the launch, promote it heavily sell it and then find my baby on Clickbank with just a few changes.

            This is something I feel strongly about. So strongly that I might end up in the penitentiary. I know I have a character flaw and a temper, but that's me.

            Doug
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  • Profile picture of the author zaarenoc
    What does the guy who did all of this say about it? Does he try to justify himself to you? You said he is a Warrior also? His silence alone (if he has indeed been silent) says a lot right there.

    Doug
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Does anybody else notice that the OP has now been banned?...
    Signature

    Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Does anybody else notice that the OP has now been banned?...
      Must be recent because she was around a few days ago. It appears it's temporary since her posts are still here.

      This has been an interesting discussion indeed. I know a few Warriors who have been giving a time out.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBoost


    Originally Posted by tjmiller View Post

    Hello Fellow Warriors,

    I respect your opinions, so I am going to throw this out there and see what comes back at me.
    Teresa,

    Sorry for your discomfort but I am confident I have the best answer for you:

    Allot about 10% of your "work-from-home" time for a period of one month for inquiries related to what you can do to get justice.

    Allot the other 90% of your "work-from-home" time putting up another site with another product and get back in the game. There's too much PLR and other options out there to get hung up on something like this even though you know, in your conscience, that you were wronged.

    The beauty of what I'm suggesting lay in the fact that

    • If you did it once, you can do it again;
    • If you can do it again, you can do it now;
    • If you can do it now, you can be making money rather than throwing money away in pursuit;
    • If you make significant money, you can allot a portion of it to getting justice.
    It should be in that order, though. Every further moment you spend in pursuit of that unscrupulous person is a moment you could be putting up something quick to keep the money train going.

    Best wishes.
    Eric Allen Fisher
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