RANT: Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?

by 244 replies
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Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read".

It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.

Yes, you should ultimately outsource repetitive work, but you need the ability to do your own stuff when getting started. Later this information benefits you when it's time to outsource (knowing what can and can't be done, and how much time something should take).

I strongly recommend that people focus on web design and basic copywriting before buying some $1000 course on how to "make money online".

/rant

EDIT: It's pretty clear the vast majority of people replying to this thread ignored the last two paragraphs of this post...
#main internet marketing discussion forum #basic #development #imers #lack #rant #web

  • So far outsourcing has worked pretty well for me. When I see that it no longer does then I will spend precious time doing that, thanks for heads up.
  • I my self have a basic understanding but it isn't needed at all... With such tools as wordpress and installing it is made simple via fantastico, it really isn't needed. Anything small tweaks you want to do to your wordpress site, you can outsource it for dirt cheap. It really isn't needed, it just helps.
    • [1] reply
    • You just can't do the same things using themes, wordpress auto-installs, etc.... it is incredibly difficult to innovate if you can't create your own stuff on the fly. Things like custom opt-in forms, new squeeze page designs, custom wordpress themes, minor theme tweeks, etc...

      This stuff ads up if you outsource it, and it prevents things from getting done in a timely manner. When small changes start costing a significant amount of money, it starts to discourage you from making them. Also, time is important in terms of outsourcing, but it is also important when it comes to getting things done quickly... to keep up with the marketplace.
      • [ 2 ] Thanks
  • So what if they do. Let them. I worry about my own business and don't care if some other marketer can't put a user interface together.
    • [ 6 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • True enough. It's just one of those things that seems off, especially for people that are just getting started. So many newbies are convinced that the best way to get something done is hire it out, and that limits their creativity and can eventually kill the momentum of their business.
      • [3] replies
  • I have to agree that because of outsourcing, Imers tend to focus on idea generation and outsource the hard tasks
  • I was wondering about the same for a long time... so I have to agree

    And something related to the lack of basic "read" skill: at least post your basic html questions in the right forum (i.e. !!!) -> Website Design or if it's a coding questions -> Programming Talk

    Yes, how to tweak your WordPress installation is also html/css... so it should not be posted here in the main forum.

    </rant over>
  • [DELETED]
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  • As an old-time coder who still uses Notepad to create websites, I agree web design is a good skill to have. However, it still comes down to personal preferences and personal needs. Capitalize on your strengths and find ways to overcome your weaknesses. Outsourcing is the fastest, easiest way to overcome a weakness and keep momentum on your side.

    Whatever works for you, right?
  • Because they'd end up as head-cases, like me, if they had to do everything themselves.
  • I'm a bit of a control freak (which is not good) so I like to learn that stuff. I don't like to be at the mercy of others in a pinch. But I can see the other side of the coin as well. Focus on what you do best and IMers are marketers not web developers/designers.

    I doubt the CEO of Roter Rooter knows how to fix a toilet or do basic plumbing work.
    • [3] replies
    • Warning, slightly veering off topic...

      He does now! I watched an episode of "Undercover Boss" where the CEO disguised his appearance and went out to work alongside some of his employees. You're right -- he totally sucked and didn't know what he was doing. But he did learn a few things before the show was over.

      Cheers,
      Becky
    • I think the best CEOs are the ones that know the work, and used to do the job at some point. They make clearer decisions, and understand both the macro and micro elements of their business.

      Everything can be outsourced, but at what cost? It's important to have a firm grasp of how a company runs, and why it is successful.
      • [1] reply
    • Actually, he went undercover as a worker for a week, so he does! Undercover Boss. Great show. I come from a web design/development background and learn when I feel like it. But I can still go with the code if I need to. Something breaks, I can fix it if need be. But most of my time is spent with ideas/research/wordpress.
      • [1] reply
  • You're missing the whole point of outsourcing: it's to free up one's time so they can do something more profitable (or enjoyable).

    Why should anyone, newbie or not, waste their time learning graphic design or copywriting when this stuff should ultimately be left to the pros?

    I don't need to know web design or copy to recognize when they're done properly (or not).

    You take a look at all the gurus in our field. Granted, some of them are pretty good at writing copy, but most of them don't write copy for clients anymore (just for themselves). I'll bet that the vast majority of them don't know how to code or design. I remember hearing one expert say that he had never put up a Squidoo lens before and didn't know how to do it, simply because he had someone on his staff who took care of this stuff.

    Would it hurt to have all this basic knowledge? No...but before you pursue this knowledge, maybe you should think about what you could be doing instead.

    Curtis
    • [1] reply
    • Banned
      I can think of several reasons. Many of the newbies here want to get rich quick but haven't got two nickels to rub together to start. I hear many say they can't afford a domain and hosting, much less outsourcing.

      No one has to be the best web designer but it certainly does not hurt to buckle down and learn some skills. You'd be surprised how skills can benefit you in the long run. I wouldn't trade all the outsourcers in the world for the skills I've acquired.

      It isn't a matter of doing something more profitable because most newbies aren't doing anything profitable. Those skills could come in real handy in a cash crisis. Instead of whining about not being able to pay the rent and having to beg McDonald's for a job, they could be setting up and configuring blogs for all the others who refuse to learn anything ... or writing ... or building minisites. Quick and reliable cash. All it takes is some skills.
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  • umm, guess what, i started IM after serving website design and graphic design services. I knew SEO also, so these made everything for me extremely easy!
  • Whilst I don't lack any understanding of basic web development...

    I think your assertion that "Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success", is ludicrous... to say the least.

    Do you really think it is vitally important that a businessman performs these tasks?...

    If I can PAY somebody to complete a task, to the same high standard, in half the time... I'm gonna do it. No question.

    No matter how much you rant, rave and posture on this issue, it simply isn't the way I have come to know this business.

    I can create, publish and maintain my own websites...and I still do. But there are also other sites which are being created, published and maintained for me this very minute... by somebody else. And they are earning me revenue that I wouldn't have the time to earn if I did it all myself.

    I can fully appreciate and understand why somebody would want to remove themselves from this area of their business, and completely outsource it.

    In fact, it makes even more sense to me... the more I think about it.

    But having said all that... what does it matter to you?... if they are making it work for them without this great :cough: "knowledge"?...

    Peace

    Jay
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    • [4] replies
    • In theory, I know much more than basic website design - i can personally hand-write PHP and Java codes, including advanced ones.

      But while working in IM and managing my business, I would not want to do that.

      Why do you think practically all of the major IT companies have CEOs coming from the sales/marketing backgrounds and not from IT?
      • [1] reply
    • I agree with this. I know web design but that isn't the point. I'm a marketer... so what I'm going to do is market products/services. That's like using market samurai and then saying "Everyone should learn basic programming". I also know how to do my own taxes. Why waste time doing them when I can hire a professional? I can come up with a ton of examples but that would be wasting time. When it comes to my business, I'm going to learn the things I HAVE to learn. Everything else is a bonus.
    • I would agree, but that isn't how it works. I can have a website up and running quicker than making a phone call to an agent. I can make tweeks faster than writing an e-mail to get it done. I can try things on the fly, and get results instantly. The internet is moving at a fast pace, and relying on someone else for EVERY SINGLE change doesn't make sense.

      Don't get me wrong, outsourcing is important... but not everything is a big project that is worth drafting up a project outline for.
      • [2] replies
    • I'm with Jay on this! If you know how to run a successful info publishing business, you'd be wasting your time doing all the technical stuff yourself when you could be writing new ebooks, writing new sales copy, researching new markets etc.
  • Having started in IM with some basic knowledge of getting a site up and with no investment budget, I had to learn how to do stuff as outsourcing was not an option.

    Although I am no coder and really do not want to spend years of hard study to become one, I take great pride in many of the things that I have actually achieved and learned and have enjoyed the process enormously.

    Having said that, I can appreciate the position taken by Rob in an earler post. Would things have been different for me if I had started my IM journey with $50k seed money? Maybe...but maybe I would always have been a little too dependant on others too.
  • I am one of those "self taught" IMers who lacks tech skills. I have done my research but can't find an answer for this.

    I want to make a post and have that post as my default home page. The post url should be "domain.com/" not the typical "domain.com/blog-post-title". I think this involves creating a post and making a static page my home page. I'm not sure or smart enough to figure this out.

    A good example of this working is at hydrolyzereview.com. The first post "Hydrolyze Review" is the home page. How do I do that?
    • [1] reply
    • If you have the post ready... PM me with your WP login details.. and I'll do it for ya

      Peace

      Jay
      • [1] reply
  • ...on the other hand, if you know a little about web design it's easier to tell if someone is hosing you or trying to rip you off.
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  • I was going to spend a whole lot of time counter ranting the OP

    Decided to save my breath... As long as you know how to work a cell phone and can contact some one who can do it for you then your going to be better off than someone who spends an eternity trying to grasp things they were never meant to grasp.

    The biggest stumbling block in IM is the tech side, and you can sweep all the tech tasks up in a pile and hand those tasks to someone else to do.

    Stumbling blocks just got turned into a stepping stones

    Robert
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  • I do develop all my stuff, both web development and graphic design BUT quite frankly, I'll be happy the day I outsource all the stuff.

    Wait and see
  • I think the question could be put another way: Why are so many people with a high level of technical skill NOT succeeding in making big money in internet marketing? I think it's because the business side of internet marketing is HARDER than the technical side and the skill sets are not connected, being good at the technical side doesn't mean you will necessarily be good at the business side (although of course you still could be).

    Succeeding in the business requires a much rarer skill set: To achieve competence in it requires total focus, an understanding of risk assessmnet, acumen, time management , copywriting ability , project management, creativity, negotiation, perseverance in the face of adversity, SEO skills, to name but a few there hundreds of others.
  • It's pretty clear that the vast majority of people replying to this thread didn't read the last two paragraphs of my OP at all... they sum up the point I was trying to make, and the replies here don't address it at all.
  • I don't think the "big" IMers are the ones working hard, doing design or coding, really.

    The big guys do the MARKETING and let others do product creation and design.

    By the way, rick, i am one of those people who does everything usually...but i simply think tedious coding and sitting on some HTML code for months is bad ROI. While you are sitting and fiddling code..others SELL.
    • [1] reply
    • I think both are valid points. I started out years ago doing webhosting and website design using dreamweaver and templates. It has been a long time since I have done this type of work, I currently outsource my webmaster duties. I have a full time VA that I found and hired on my own without going through a company and after careful consideration, (hiring someone that didn't work out) , decided to have the graphics work done on a per project basis. (my first sites will be up by the end of the month)

      . I have decide that I will be responsible for the planning the course of my business, marketing, and content of my sites. (if you master these things you could actually team up with some one with the other skills and help each other or barter your services)

      If I wanted to I could get back into webdesign but I'd rather use my time coming up with ways to make money. But what I do is research and design my BUSINESS so that it runs like a McDonalds. If the fry cook quits I can replace them within a couple of days and take over while they are gone. You HAVE to make your business a system that can function without you. (Read the E-Myth and similar works when you have a chance).

      If you think of your business like this you won't have to worry about being at the mercy of anyone. Build into your Business the ability to take over (learn the job) and\or replace "employees" quickly if and when needed. Just my 2cents :-)
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  • I firmly believe that everyone should learn a website platform or CMS. Whether that be Joomla, Wordpress, Drupal, whatever...

    Learn the thing inside and out. In the long run, this will open up so many more opportunities, save you money, and you will not have to depend on others if you don't want to.

    With all of the plugins available for popular blogging and CMS platforms, WYSIWYG editors, free tutorials on YouTube, and specialized support forums, even a "technically challenged" person can put together a decent looking site in a short amount of time.
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    • [1] reply
    • My first site ever is actually a DRUPAL site. And by the way, this is the last drupal site i ever made

      We could as well argue that everyone who wants to run Windows should be familiar with Linux <---

      EFFECTIVENESS <----- Do the things which yield ROI and dont dabble weeks/months in things which wont. This is a trap MANY are in.
  • Rick, Henry Ford didn't know how to machine an engine block. In fact, Ford was considered to be sort of uneducated.
    • [2] replies
    • There are always exceptions . That said, I think it's safe to say most beginners in the IM market are not as brilliant as Henry Ford.
    • You make it seem like Henry Ford was some kind of "Forrest Gump" idiot, which isn't true.

      Also, Ford did have a good understanding of machines. It's not as if he was the type of guy who never got his hands dirty.

      Henry Ford was quite adept at working on machinery - watches, sawmills, steam engines, gasoline engines - according to his Wikipedia bio.

      As far as Ford being uneducated, I'll assume you mean formal education. It seems he was pretty well educated to me.
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  • Rick,

    I'm one of those people and I agree with you whole heartedly. The biggest problem for me was trying to find someone to train me in doing the "technical stuff". Even though I wanted to outsource a lot of the "technical stuff eventually, I knew iI needed how to do it myself and also didn't have the money to outsource. I tried to do self study , but wasn't really successful. I had no idea how to set up a squeeze page or a download site. HTML was Greek and php was Roman. Even Wordpress, which was supposedly so easy, floored me. So I jumped from one thing to another hoping that someone along the way would finally teach me how to do the basics while I was learning IM techniques like article marketing, adsense, CPA, etc, etc. The problem was that without knowing those technical basics, it's hard to do anything the correctly

    I wishsomeone whould put together a course that would show how to do all the basic technical tech stuff...both beginner and advanced...with videos so that I could set up a website in html with Kompozer or a blog with Wordpress or a squeeze page or whatever.

    Believe me, I would give my right arm to have a course like that, and I think many others would as well.
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  • IMO, The outsourcing mentality is highly correlated with the degree to which we as a society devalue and disrespect those who do actual work in preference for those who "get rich" and "are successful".

    It's the MBA mentality. Why should I understand something that I can outsource? Why should I learn to do something that I can outsource?

    Well, on the one hand, you should absolutely be EFFECTIVE in how you manage your business, your resources, and your time. If you can be EFFECTIVE managing something without knowledge and skill to do it yourself, then more power to you. But most people aren't REALLY effective at managing outsourcing. The quality sucks. It takes forever. And tons of details fall through the cracks. They aren't really effective at outsourcing... they just never experienced anything better so they don't even know what they're missing. You can't explain why a steak is better to someone that's only ever eaten at McDonald's. You can't even explain why a bistro burger is better.

    But on the other hand, even if you are effective at outsourcing the details, life is not just about the money. To understand the flaw in the MBA mentality, one need only watch Srikumar Rao's youtube video from his presentation at Google. You have to enjoy the process, you have to find satisfaction in the doing, lest you'll get the money but not the happiness.

    My closing anecdote: My ex g/f (of a few years ago) was the top of the class-working on wall street-doing LBO's-going to harvard-mba type.

    One day she was explaining outsourcing to me like she had just invented it... on and on about how you can get the "same" stuff for way cheaper (as if there were no tradeoffs involved). After a while it hit me and I interrupted her.... "WAIT WAIT WAIT! I got it! We're going to be rich! OK, listen carefully, here's what we do: We outsource the MBA's! We can get bad management at half the price!"

    I think we talked once on the phone after that. She didn't even have to call me to break up with me, we both just knew. lol

    Moral of the story: People are a commodity to be exploited, traded, fungibly interchanged. Everyone except for you, that is.
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  • I maintain my Lp's, websites etc. for the most part by myself. But I am all about outsourcing design. If I could do it myself, I would. I am not a designer and don't pretend to be. I don't think it's comparable to "typing" or "reading." A good design can make or break a campaign.

    But yes, I agree that a lot of IM's should get a little more development savvy.
  • The same thing bugs me a lot at times. I think this is why it is hard to charge/collect what is fair pay for what is done for the client because they do not understand what comes with the dev territory or the frustration at times...usually when technology does like you for the day. lol

    I've had clients ask for the near impossible (time wise) and then devalue the effort because they feel it should have been easy for a techie person.

    The fact is, in my opnion, that these people are to impatient and are spoiled to the instant gradification mentality. For these ppl that have a "do it for me" mind set...all I can say is "Take a Viagra" cuz you just don't "do it for me" either.

    I do believe in outsourcing, you just need to understand what your outsourcing. Not that you have to learn to code...just have a clear understanding of what you need to achieve your outcome. Stop relying on us to formulate that perfect serum for you. When I find one...I ain't tellin or giving it totally away to you.

    Another problem I see is "trust". A lot of ppl are trusting that you can code thier dream come true(like we have esp) then screaming foul play when they find out that it will require ongoing effort to maintain what you buildt for them or they just assume that you are going to do that for them too....forever. If not...then you must be a scammer.

    Now...see...Rick...you got me on a rant too!

    • [1] reply
    • Personally, I'm kinda glad so many don't have web skills. It keeps the competition weak, besides that it creates opportunities for web developers such as myself form time to time. I'm happy to service the community of IMers that need help with web design or other skills.
  • [DELETED]
  • Opinion vs. opinion. You've each found a way that works for you. I doubt if either of you are going to sway the other to your way of thinking. Remember what I said earlier? It's a personal choice, and...

    ...whatever works for YOU, right?
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    • [1] reply
    • I agree with you, and am slowly figuring that out.

      Meanwhile, I enjoy a good debate and like the banter, so I'm a little torn on wither it should continue .
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  • This may all amount to a generational gap issue. Robert is serving an older audience, and I'm sure they absolutely love him for it (LFM looks interesting as well).

    On the other hand, I think the younger generation finds it easier to just "do it yourself" when it comes to basic web design. So, that is a more natural path for us.

    Robert: I appreciate you taking the time to disagree with me. I enjoyed the debate, and learned a few things.
  • You don't NEED to know any web design to be successful online.

    Sure it helps a helluva lot, but is it necessary in a day and age with wordpress, xsite pro and all these other visual designers? No.

    I didn't know squat about web design when I got started. I learned some basic HTML along the way but certainly not enough to be able to design a website from the ground up. Did that stop me from making money? NO, because I have taken advantage of a plethora of other options out there such as WP and XsitePro.

    Having web design skills is NOT a high leverage activity! It's not necessary for being successful online. Focus on learning the high leverage things that directly impacts the income you make!

    People already suffer enough from information overload, analysis by paralysis etc. They don't need another thing to worry and procrastinate over and waste time learning. If anything people need to learn less and do more! Web design skills will not make or break you. There are a ton of web designers out there who aren't making any money online. There's even more people out there with no design skills making a killing.

    Just focus on MAKING money and focus on the things that have a direct impact on your bottom line. Web design isn't one of them. Install wordpress or buy Xsite pro and you're set. Move on!
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  • Could someone please pass the popcorn?
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    • Too late. The off-topic fun is over... I put him on my ignore list. Now I know how he got so many posts... wow.

      Now I wish I just took your advice. Lesson learned .

      Back to the topic now...
    • Banned
      Do trolls eat popcorn?

      If so then pass it my way.
      • [1] reply
  • I think it's good to have some basic knowledge so you don't get ripped off by outsourcers.
    • [2] replies
    • Banned
      Sooner or later you will have to work out how to deal with outsourcers, contractors or employees if you start doing any type of volume.
    • That reminds me of something...

      I remember hearing about someone that outsourced a rather large project overseas. He got updates for a few months, but never actually saw the end product (clearly, his mistake). Ended up getting screwed, as they were never really working on it. I'm sure this happens more often that we'd like.

      Now, I'm not saying all outsourcing is like this (at all)... it can be done right. But your post just reminded me of that. It's important to manage outsourcing carefully... building a long term relationship with a company.

      I think it was Strategic Coach that taught me the difference between out-sourcing and out-tasking. Big difference.
  • Some people get really good in one area of "internet development". Most people are not jacks of all trades.

    People contract me to do things they are weak in. And I contract people to take care of things that I need help with.

    If you are a "jack of all trades" you're probably sub-par in many different areas. Knowing when to get help should be the trade to focus on.
  • Rick totally agree with you. I think a lot of people are intimidated by basic web design because of the nature of how it works. When I started marketing a long time ago, I felt the same way. However, I now feel that without the ability to know how to at least do basic updates to your website(s), you are wasting precious dollars that could be going into your pocket or being spent on building your business in other areas. If you are interested in learning basic web design, I found a great website that I recommend to all of my students. Go to Google and do a search for free html video tutorial. You should find some great resources.
  • It's a good point and being a web designer/developer myself i sometimes ask the same question...

    But in My Opinion Internet Marketers should spend their time on coming up with new idea's and marketing their products to the public/ split testing these sort of things instead of making a website look pretty and plugging it all together because i know it can be quite frustrating and time consuming. Outsourcing the web develpment process will cut hours off the time it'll take to comple it 100% and it also will cost next to nothing!

    As an original web designer turned IMER i have done the same..I can now focus on the more important tasks because i can see the opportunity there is in making money online.

    Take Care,
    Matt Pickstone
  • Why is it that so many web designers don't bother to learn marketing?
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    • [2] replies
    • Why doesn't Caliban cut his hair? These are the mysteries of life beyond our comprehension.
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    • Because marketing doesn't make web design easier... on the other hand, basic web design does make online marketing much easier (especially when you are just getting started and don't have a budget for outsourcing).
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  • Ok, paying the utmost attention to the last two paragraphs.

    You don't need to know basic html skills to get started. Blogger, squidoo and thousands of others let you build pages/sites without an iota of technical skill and monetize them with adsense, etc.

    Once you get money, pay someone to develop the next step.

    I will bet you 95 % of the very successful IM'ers aren't as technically proficient as the person that makes less than $1000/year here for their efforts.

    Technical skills are not necessary. Marketing and selling skills are. You ever meet a person that works in sales for most companies. They aren't that computer savvy are they?

    I'm a techie myself and it's easy for me to get caught up in the bit twiddling instead of making money parts of things.

    For this very reason, I belong to a membership site that teaches me sales techniques. Those are what I lack.

    Without sales and marketing skills, my techie abilities allows me to build sites that don't sell crap. They look nice though and I get to really spend a lot of time on them.

    Oh, and I can trouble shoot server performance issues as well. None of that makes me money, unless I sell those skills, which I already do in my day job.
  • I would like to trow my 2 cents in if it's ok. I wonder if Jeff Gordon knows how to work on the cars that he drives to win NASCAR races? Or if his crew chief knows how to drive better than Jeff Gordon?

    I don't need to know html or web design to be an Internet Marketer just like Jeff Gordon doesn't need to spend countless hours working on his cars to win races.

    You don't think Jeff Gordon said well i think i need to learn how to work on this engine before i race. I really doubt it.
    • [2] replies
    • Ever consider that he might know how... and that might have made it easier to get started in the lower leagues when he was young. I don't know if that is true, but the point is... having that ability might have made it easier to get started in racing with a low budget (repairing go-carts, basic race cars, or whatever).

      I strongly recommend the book "Outliers" to understand the little things that make a BIG difference over time. It talks about Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, top athletes, and other examples of how overlapping interests make a HUGE difference on the way to remarkable success.
    • I'm pretty sure Jeff Gordon knows how to work on cars. I'd bet he's rebuilt an engine or two in his day. He may not currently do those things during a race, but I think a deep understanding of the technical aspects of the medium of his trade would help him.

      When Jeff Gordon is talking to his crew after pulling into the pit to "outsource" the work he needs done in his car, I think his knowledge of automobile mechanics helps him very well in communicating the nature of the problem to his crew.
  • I've been reading "Moonlighting on the Internet" by Yanik Silver, and he outright admits that he doesn't know the first thing about creating a website, and that he would rather spend his time creating products and marketing them than get tied up with setting a website up. It also seems that quite a few of the more successful Warriors concentrate on product creation and marketing and let others [not always out of the country, BTW] use their skills to create the websites.

    Some folks are skilled at website design. Others are skilled at copywriting. Some are great at creating products at will. And still others can crank out articles to promote affiliate products. It would be nice to know how to set up a basic site, but it's not a requirement to being successful in IM.

    It boils down to what each person feels comfortable with. That's my 2 cents.
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  • So you create websites in which you honestly admit you know nothing about..

    ...am I to assume the products you create are of the same quality?
    • [1] reply
    • Actually Yanik said that in his book. You'd have to ask his customers whether his actual products are of good quality - which the ones I've seen definitely are. :-)

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  • IM has so many different areas, that it is impossible to be good at everything. Majority do lack webdesign/programming skills and its best to delegate, your weakness to someone who is better at it than you are.

    Good 'ol economics, "opportunity cost", factors into this equation nicely.
  • And then there's that Will Rogers guy, who said, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
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  • IMO, IM is always advertised as having a low barrier of entry and most people just jump into and by the time you realize there is so much more to it, you have to pick your battles in order to advance. As you succeed, ultimately everyone learn the basic because even to outsource you have to understand something about it. But at first, if you can afford it, outsourcing is the solution because you will never get your business off the ground. And when you succeed, it's a waste of your time to do it.

    those who came online to learn how to design websites are appropriately called web designer, the rest of us just want to sell and cash in.

    And as Michael Gerber says (paraphrasing) good technicians usually make poor business owners. I am way better off learning first how to be a business owner and when I have time and money, I can pick up web design as a hobby. I probably won't though
  • Speaking of Steve Jobs-my personal opinion of him is that he really knows how to build a great pc but his marketing sense is awful. I really think that is the reason microsoft windows and pcs are in more homes than macs are. I have always thought he did a great disservice to apple computers by not marketing them as smart as Bill Gates marketed windows with pcs and got them in more homes. So yeah I read the original post but I'm not really convinced learning that stuff is a neccessity-I mean what really keeps a business afloat? Knowing how to build a web page or knowing how to make money over and over again? IMO the truth is you can build the best web site imaginable but if you can't get any traffic-who cares? And no I did not miss your point of the original post I am just saying maybe it's not as dire of an issue as you seem to think it is :-)
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    • Instead of being frustrated that people don't want to learn basic web development skills I look at it as another way to increase my business. I can always do simple tasks for my customers and generate a fair profit for myself. What happens is the customer is happy because they get their squeeze page up and I am happy with the extra revenue.

      So let's say you get 40 of your customers or subscribers to pay you $250 to setup a squeeze page which I think is more than fair. Well with that one deal you have generated $10,000. If you have 5 customers take you up on this that is an extra $1,250 you never had before.

      I am not saying you sit there and don't help your customers figure this stuff out, but honestly some people just do not want to bother with this stuff. They ask all the time if they could pay someone to just set this up for them. I have training to help them set it up. Some people get that while others just get frustrated and don't do it.

      It is all in how you look at it. I view this as another revenue model for my business that also benefits the customer because they get what they want with less effort.
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  • Banned
    Funny ... all the excuses in this thread for not learning. For Heaven's Sake ... do not learn. It isn't necessary, you can hire someone, you're a big shot and big shots don't get their hands dirty with menial tasks.

    Learning the skills to run your business from the ground up is not grunt work. It's smart. It doesn't mean that you will always do everything yourself, but that you are able to do it all.

    Take outsourcing for example. If you are completely familiar with the tasks involved in a project, it is far easier to train or tell outsourcers exactly what you want and it is far easier not to get ripped off by outsourcers. That's just one benefit of knowing your business.

    Others are being able to fix something that goes wrong quickly and not having to wait until someone in China wakes up.

    In addition, as I mentioned earlier, having a skill set gives you the opportunity to sell your services for quick cash when all your IM efforts just aren't panning out, and I see a lot of that in this forum.

    Speaking about not panning out ... many of you here today will not be here next year, or at least will not be making any money. I see a lot of that. Some of you are quite young. What does your resume look like? Mine is about 5 pages long, if I cared to use one. What are your marketable skills and accomplishments? Anything? What can you or will you do when all else fails and you're about to be thrown out on the streets because you can't scare up enough IM cash to cover your living expenses.

    My bases have always been covered. I can write up precise specs for an outsourcer because I know what it takes to get my projects done. I can also smell outsourcer BS a mile away and thus avoid getting ripped off by them. I can sell services for fast cash, if necessary. I can get a better job than the average minimum wage job, if necessary.

    I don't buy the tech skills is a waste of time when you can be spending your time looking at the big picture and pushing all the right buttons to make everything happen. Why? Because with newbies, that's not what is happening. Many are just floundering around the forum, buying up the next shiny WSO to get rich quick and not really achieving that. They aren't really building sustainable businesses. They're out for a quick buck. Most of them have more than enough time to spend acquiring a skill set, but the BIG RED LETTERS on the pages all tell them they don't need any skills ... just do this and YOU TOO can go shopping for that Ferrari.

    Nothing I say or anyone else is going to convince them that knowledge and skills are powerful tools that will serve you well throughout your life. That's not why they're here. They want instant gratification ... throw some crap up and voila ... the cash comes rolling in.

    Good luck with that.

    I do. There's no point to creating my products if I can't market them. That being said, no one is going to have the capability of learning everything there is to learn, but learning nothing isn't very smart.
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    • No, what's funny is that I've been designing and building web sites for almost twenty years, and I still think there's no good reason for someone in IM to go out and learn web design.

      But a number of people seem to have leapt to the conclusion that I don't know web design.

      After all, don't I see the value of what I know for someone else?

      No. I don't. Only you can see the value that learning something holds for you. And if you don't want to learn it, I trust you to have made the right decision... for you.

      There's simply no compelling argument that successful IM requires web design skills. I feel no compulsion to go out and try to make everyone in the world live their lives, make their choices, and run their businesses more like I do.

      It would be a better world if they did, of course, but they'd have to do it of their own free will.
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  • I don't say that people shouldn't learn it but anything can be outsourced these days.Anyway IMO any IMer should know (at least)basic web development.It helps you a lot if you can do it by yourself.
  • I will keep this short. Talent is cheap. You can OWN a University graduate for less than 30k a year.

    The big money is in developing systems and putting people in place to run it.
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    • You bet.

      But in order to put people into place to run your systems, it takes money.

      Most of the WF members aren't making money and a good number of them don't have any money either.

      If you don't have the money to run the parts of the system, then you have to fill the roles in your system or go without that part.

      If you fill a role like copywriting or web design and do it badly, your business will suffer and it will be that much harder to get your system in place.

      If you can do a role or task (temporary or ongoing) well then your business doesn't suffer in that area. Heck, if you do it well you have the option of raising the cash you need by doing freelancing (temporary or ongoing).
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    • Banned
      You can RENT a University graduate for less than 30K a year until someone else pays him more than you do.

      Most of the newbies are not "developing systems and putting people in place to run them." They are like addicts ... consuming one WSO after another looking for a quick, easy buck. Many have the attention span of gerbils on crack, never focusing on anything long enough to realize any profits, because there's always something new that just caught their eye to try out.

      I do realize though that it is pointless to preach learning to many of them. Some are incapable of learning and some are just plain lazy.
  • I'm with Rick on this one. An entrepreneur, both online and offline, should be familiar with the nitty gritty of his own business. I am not saying he should be an expert (that's what your employees/outsourcees are for), but at any rate you should be familiar with the basics of the technology behind your business.

    Example: a good Formula One driver knows quite a bit about engineering and how the car works under the bonet, so he can report back to his team of mechanics after the race and work together with them to improve the car. Sure, he wouldn't be able to build a car from scratch, but he does understand how the machinery works.
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  • The F$$$$d thing about this is that all IM'rs make fun of those newbies who don't know keywords and the such while web developers make fun of IM'rs who can't fix basic HTML.

    IM'rs need web dev's. Web devs don't need IM'rs. And, as of late, IM'ing has proven nothing more than to be spamming people in one form or another. I can't wait for the day where I can actually turn to the internet for information on a subject and not have to sift through websites full of crap sales pages.

    Understanding web development will make you a better IM'r because you can be original in your spam..er..marketing techniques. Not understand web dev will just make you the same as everyone else.
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  • 2 cents into the kitty...

    A lot of IM tasks are pretty simple from a technological standpoint. So with that kind of business model, I can see an argument for learning how to do these steps in order to properly train a very low cost outsource staff. If labor is your biggest expense as the owner, it only makes sense to learn the basics to teach your dirt cheap overseas workers. That, or pay more for more advanced workers who don't need any instruction.

    John
  • The big disconnect here seems to be based on a lot of people still ignoring the OP. There are people that think they need to spout off advanced theory to sound smart, and then people that understand the reality for MOST people starting a business.

    I'm still waiting on MichaelHiles to reply to my post above. Something tells me he has lost interest in this topic... or maybe he is too busy working his "60 hours a week" while reading books on outsourcing.
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    • I'm waiting too. I can't wait to hear what he's going to come up with next.

      Well, his profile indicates "Current Activity: Viewing Thread RANT: Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?" ...so maybe he's cooking up something.
  • There's no other way around it: at the very beginning, you've got to get your hands dirty to get it all rolling. We all start off a garage (yes, even Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and the rest), and at those initial stages you need to learn the nitty gritty of your business.
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  • We are marketers not developers. Marketing/writing a business plan is what makes money not web site developing.
  • It's a simple answer. I don't have the Time, I'm too busy making money.

    I'm over 50, my IT skills suck. I make great money marketing to Mom & Pop business owners who are happy to pay me $20,000, $30,000, $50,000+ per year marketing their business.

    I have (3) full time VA's who do my work.

    My best use of time is Face to Face with business owners selling my Marketing skills.

    Do I wish I had IT skills, heck yes. I do know Website Design, layout and conversion skills.

    I learned from the best:
    Jakob Nielsen: useit.com: Jakob Nielsen on Usability and Web Design

    Steve Krug: Advanced Common Sense Home
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    • AP, the original post asked why so many IMers don't have decent website design or copywriting skills.

      From what you described, you're good to go.

      IT skills are probably wishful thinking for a lot of marketers but the reality is... programming stuff is always easier to outsource to programmers than learn yourself.

      It's also something that isn't a core necessity to be a successful online marketer.

      Best of continuing luck to you and your business.

      Take care,

      Mike
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  • At 193 posts and counting as I type this, I'll confess I haven't read all 193. So if this point has already been made, I apologize...

    I can't buy into the idea that knowing everything about web design, coding and graphics is critical to success, I do think a basic familiarity is helpful.

    As Dennis said early on, I can create web pages with nothing more than Notepad. Back when I first got started, that was about the only option. Now I prefer to use other tools. But I can still do quick changes to themes or templates, saving time and money (especially opportunities lost while waiting).

    I'd never consider myself a coder, but I can hack a little javascript, php and even perl to tweak how a script works.

    As far as graphics go, I can touch up a photo or hack together a button, but for something that requires actual artistic talent I have to look another direction.

    Having the basic familiarity helps me recognize when a job is something I should let someone else tackle, yet gives me the freedom to dispose of the things I can do in a few minutes. And it helps me recognize when a sub is trying to blow smoke.

    Is basic web development skill critical? No.

    Is it helpful? Definitely.
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    • I am just starting my new business, a web design and hosting business. I landed 3 new clients last week cold calling on the phone... made $1,200. plus added $150 a month to my residual income... and I dont know how to build a website. I plan on making 1200 more next week AND adding 150 more.

      Mind you I have done this before.
    • I certainly don't feel as though I've made personal attacks. It may come across that way, but all I was really trying to do is explain that I get the notion of outsourcing (honestly, I do).

      When you say things like "you have an employees mindset" (over and over), how am I supposed to take that? Seems like a personal attack, and an inaccurate one at that.

      At the end of the day, we really don't disagree on the value of outsourcing, at least once an idea translates into a working business. So, the fact that it keeps coming up is very frustrating.

      I think this basically sums up the correct position. My initial post about it being "critical" was definitely a little extreme... that tends to happen in rants . I guess the fact that people jumped on that is to be expected, but this late in the conversation... I think it's pretty clear what I meant. However, I take full responsibility for the confusion.

      Anyway... we aren't going to agree on everything. Anything personal was not intended, so I apologize. This thread was never intended to be a big argument... I just sincerely believe that beginners can benefit from learning some web development basics, and felt an off the wall rant post might be what it takes to get that message out.

      It honestly frustrates me to see so many beginners struggling with hyped make-money systems. This industry has a HUGE black cloud over it, and I wish there was a way to change that... all while actually helping people figure out what it takes to get started.

      The easiest way for me to do that is to explain what worked for me. It may not be perfect for everyone, but IMO it's a hell of a lot better than some of the crap out there.

      Anyway, I think this rant is long over... I hope people understand my actual intentions with this thread. It clearly went off course... a few times.
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  • Banned
    Hi Rick,

    First, you need to fix your signature - not that I'm the signature police, but the forum rules require sigs to be in the default font size.

    You're basically restating something I've posted about over and over through the years here. I do firmly believe that, when just starting out, newcomers to this industry should focus on developing basic technical skills and knowledge, that will help them as decision makers in the future.

    My purpose in recommending this though, is that newcomers invariably have more time than money, so putting together an educational plan as well as a business plan makes good sense at that stage of their career. However I disagree that it's "Critical" to anyone's long-term success. Helpful? Certainly, but not critical - it's not going to make or break someone.

    Over the years I've worked with many successful marketers who haven't got a clue about the technical side of things. Their success stems from their ability to manage their business activities and hire those who are best at the technical issues involved.

    Here's a simple analogy - an executive needs to make some color copies, collated and ready for binding, but his secretary has the day off. So he stands around the copier scratching his head until someone else's secretary comes along and bails him out.

    Successful managers are not successful because they excel at doing all of the various jobs involved in his or her business - they're successful because they understand how to manage it, accept input on any given issue and then make an informed decision.

    And just to clarify, there's really nothing all that basic to web design anymore - over time it becomes more and more complex. Fortunately, there is a broad and diverse pool of talented freelancers that are willing to do the work at very reasonable prices.

    As to the last paragraph you wrote, I think that it's more important for folks to learn about each aspect of IM so that when that $1K course comes along they can make an informed decision about purchasing it.

    I'm fairly certain that knowledge of basic web design is not going to be a factor in making that decision.
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  • No - it's not that. It's that you basically stated that it's CRITICAL for everyone to learn to make websites. That's obviously NOT true for many people.

    Your general message is something most people agree on, so you fighting people who outsource by saying they didn't read your post is what is causing the responses.

    Like Jay, I create some of my sites and outsource some. We're an example of what you're saying to do - but if I was starting out from scratch now, I definitely would NOT be building my own sites.

    It's a full time job keeping up with web technologies and seo, so even though I find them interesting and like to know what's going on, it doesn't make sense for me to spend my time making them, it would seriously limit my scalability.

    If 10 people ask me to help their business and they all need websites - I'd have to say no if I intended to build them all myself.

    So, while I HAVE done what you're suggesting, I definitely wouldn't suggest that it's right for people starting out now. I started 10 years ago so websites were the main focus back then - now they're a commodity and the marketing and strategy are what make the difference.

    Andy
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  • I must confess, I find myself somewhat in agreement with both sides. Rick is right in that, in the beginning, most folks have to do things themselves, but not necessarily because they don't have the money to outsource or hire staff, but rather, because they don't have the business knowledge to know what they don't know, so they don't know what they need to learn.

    Learning takes time, and most people want to get started as quickly as possible. They don't know that the way they start their business could trap them in their business, and in reality, many don't care. Getting started is the most important thing to them, so his advice is appropriate for a certain group of beginners. And of course, not everyone aspires to run a big business, so Rick's advice speaks to them as well.

    The flaw in his presentation and argument, is that he frames it as a fundamental requirement rather than an optional skill that's worthwhile to have in his opinion.

    In my own business, which was actually started more by accident than design, I learned to do everything myself. Michael is right in that, that is a trap and it is being your own employee, not a business owner. As my business evolved I realized I was the business. If I died the business would die. All it would take is for my domains to expire and my wife would lose all my income.

    Extricating yourself from a system (or lack of a system as Michael might say) that relies on you at every turn isn't easy. I've spent a lot of time planning and automating to change my underlying business model, and I still have a long way to go. That has taken time away from developing new businesses, new products, and networking - all of which would be a more profitable use of my time.

    This has been one of the most fascinating threads I've read in quite some time. A lot of people have made worthwhile contributions to it, and I thank all the participants, but I do want to publicly single out Michael Hiles and say thanks for giving me the most to think about.
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    • Bingo. All of my responses were based on the position that knowing how to do your own web development is critical... not somewhat important.... not helpful... not occasionally resourceful... but ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO YOUR LONG-TERM SUCCESS.

      Not startup success. Not short-term success.... ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO YOUR LONG-TERM SUCCESS. Quite a dogmatic assertion, huh?

      Quoted for posterity.



      One of the biggest hurdles that I ever faced in my own business... worse than surviving the startup phase... worse than early stage cash flow crunches... worse than losing a strategic client to a competitor... was the task that I faced when I realized that all those times that I got involved in the development created a short-term fix, convenient, cheap, easy for the business ultimately created a patchwork quilt of areas of bottleneck that I couldn't easily hand off to someone else.

      When I finally had to screech everything to a halt and document what had been done on each project, then train and delegate... it cost me many times over in lost opportunity to break momentum. But I was the only one that could document and train someone else in the things that I had directly worked on years prior. I didn't even think about things like that when I just jumped in and did the work myself. I was just bootstrapping, right? Doing what any entrepreneur has to do.

      I've been fortunate to have seen other startup business cycles since then, and realize that the garage band slog is certainly a way to start a business. Many giant companies were started that way. But it's certainly not the only way, and many other companies got their start in a far more efficient manner (mostly involving joint venturing with other companies that provide the necessary resources). I've also seen the powerful effects of working with venture capital backed business incubators that don't inject cash, but provide tactical level resources for their portfolio startup companies in exchange for a minor equity participation. Many of those deals are nothing but a business plan on paper.

      If that experience isn't important to someone just starting out, then ignore it and go on with whatever you're doing. It isn't going to hurt my feelings that you're not interested in learning from my mistake. Truthfully, it's probably a mistake that relatively few people really ever have to face because it requires business growth to a certain size before such a thing becomes apparent, let alone a problem.




      Glad that I could inspire you in some fashion. Feel free to hit me up with whatever, whenever.
  • Hell I have generated $20k in sales resulting in $10k of commissions to me in the last 9 months.

    I have a wp blog, a few squeeze page templates and just the ability to copy and paste and send emails.

    Yet i'm still moving forward in my business and seeing success, if I wanted something technical done further down the line. I would outsource and pay someone to do it better and quicker resulting in more cash for me down the line.

    cheers

    Marcus
  • So much acrimony... so little time.

    While I don't think it's CRITICAL that Internet Marketers
    learn web design or SEO or other tactical, technical skill
    sets, I DO think having a solid grasp of the "tools of the
    trade" can help inform your choices about how you choose
    to grow and scale your business in the future.

    While I don't think knowing how to design a layout in
    Photoshop, slice it up and code it precludes someone from
    becoming a successful executive, it is most certainly not
    high-value activity - at scale or in bootstrap mode.

    Like many, I developed the technical skills I possess out of
    sheer necessity... but I was also personally INTERESTED in
    learning those skills.

    And I still am. I dig design. I dig much of the tactical stuff.

    That makes me a far more effective delegator and creative
    director than someone without that element of personal
    passion for the job. In the end, it's reflected in the work
    product and that directly impacts the bottom line in a
    significant way.

    The coolest thing about being an entrepreneur is you get to
    make your own rules. And sometimes your best way forward
    is at complete odds with what anyone else would consider
    reasonable or well advised.

    I have a lot of respect for Michael's point of view - it's irrefutably
    solid business building ethos. I also have a lot of respect for
    contravening conventional wisdom and carving out your own path
    to sustainable profits in the way that best suits your own ideals,
    interests and strengths.

    Somehow, I'm thinking both Michael and Rick probably have more
    alike than this thread would indicate.

    Best to all,

    Brian
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  • People in here are always complaining they buy things that end up being crap and dont make them any money, we see those threads every day in here...

    Well here's a thought instead of buying those products use that money to get someone to do the tech tasks for you and build your own products to sell.

    learning all that tech stuff is just another treadmill your stepping onto.

    Robert
  • And to think... this conversation would have taken 10-20 minutes in real life. Good thing we have the Internet to really enjoy the entire process .
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    • And archive everything for posterity, so we never forget it.

      We're glad to have you here, Rick.
  • First, Michael Hines... in some other threads over past times (I was lurking a long time ago) I felt like you didn't know what you were talking about or felt like you came off the wrong way, but after reading all your posts in this thread, you seem to have an understanding of business. I dig that.

    You must have gotten a MBA somewhere lol. I graduated from college with a business degree and you seem to have learned much of what I learned.

    Now, back to the OP...

    Okay, from what I took from it, you're saying the newbie should learn tech skills, ie Web development.

    I don't think that's the right place to start. As many people have said, it's the sales and marketing process the newb should start at.

    Now, onto the bigger scheme of things, they should definitely focus on the business aspect. I would say from the beginning, but they may not know how powerful the internet really is. But web development is definitely not one of the things they MUST focus on.

    As a beginner, you can use blogger blogs or wordpress blogs. If they take a few minutes and learn how to use ftp and upload a basic wordpress blog, they can do that.

    I really don't know how to do any coding. Well, maybe a little. When I was learning engineering (a totally different story), I had to take computer science and code a few things. But I never, ever, ever wanted to sit down and learn how to build a website.

    I just don't care. I can get someone else to do it.

    Now, I get that you're saying if a noob don't know how to code, they won't know if they're getting ripped off. But if they know marketing, how to test, and what that site should earn them, does it matter?

    Meaning...

    If a get a site back and I think it's junk. But I test it and it doesn't convert, I'll know what to say to the coder/web designer.

    If they have a no refund/we don't give a fug policy, I can just chalk it up to experience and move on to the next designer.

    Which leads me to this...

    First thing first, as a newbie, you want to make your first dollar to know that you can make money online. Period.

    Learning coding ain't the first thing someone needs to learn. I'd say after you get a grasp understanding at how to make money online (why people buy, targeting keywords, getting traffic), then you should MAYBE think about web design. Until then, I wouldn't worry about.

    P.S.- You should always be learning. Just wanted to get that out the way before someone misquotes me
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    • In a twist of irony, both Michael Hiles and Rick are right. I mentioned it in an earlier post but I'll mention it again before I leave this thread for good.

      Both Michael and Rick are fans outsourcing and systemizing (you can't outsource everything if you aren't using systems to track and run your business effectively).

      The difference is how important they think knowing how to design a web page and writing copy may be.

      I think some of the longer termed online marketers like Rick and myself are skewed towards saying knowing basic web design is important because of our business experiences.

      My first website went online in 2001. I paid a webdesigner $400 per page to build it then because I didn't know HTML (yet). It would take him 3-4 weeks to make any changes so pretty quickly, I started looking for other tools to let me update my own site. I couldn't wait 3-4 weeks to change something like my clinic's fee schedule online or to add an email opt-in box.

      I didn't have a choice but to learn HTML.

      There was no high-speed internet access in my area. Heck, there were major chunks of the world that didn't even have dial-up access yet. In fact, internet speed was too slow to make using streaming video a practical tool... so there was really no online sales videos yet either.

      There was no Elance or any other outsourcing websites yet.

      There was no WordPress. Mambo (the parent coding to Joomla) was still in its infancy.

      Google was the #2 Search Engine after Overture and was still a privately held company.

      Like I said, a whole different world and a way different playing field.

      Today, the barrier to entry is alot lower.

      For starters, there's some great free tools to help the beginning IMer like Gimp, WordPress, NVU, and more. There's a bunch of free reports, training videos, etc. to help people learn online marketing, copywriting, etc.

      You can find a lot of outsourcing resources... if you have the monies, you can hire some really talented folks to help you grow your business.

      Having said that... I still believe it's a good idea to know how to update or build your own webpages. I'm not 100% sold on WordPress as a secure platform (maybe it's the 2-3x/year they have to release a security patch).

      Copywriting... well, I'm a professional copywriter so I'm definitely biased about its importance. It's sort of like asking an insurance agent if you need more insurance.

      What I will say is that once I learned how to write better marketing for my businesses (both offline and online), my sales quickly doubled. I honestly believe every online marketer needs the ability to write a decent salesletter and autoresponder emails for their business.

      So that's why I have a strong bias about web design and copywriting. If I hadn't learned both of them, I would have had no shot of building a successful online business and my offline businesses would have never grown to the level that they did either.

      To Michael Hiles... sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I agree with you about the importance of systemization for a business. Back in 2000, my massage therapy center was the first in my area to implement dedicated systems for client retention, staff policy and procedure manual and countless other systems.

      I guess we'll agree to disagree about whether a typical WF member who is a beginner needs to learn webdesign and copywriting or not... but that's okay. If everyone agreed with me then forum conversations would be boring as hell.

      To Rick... welcome to Warrior Forum. Keep your hands up and shots above the belt. I think you have a lot you can offer the other members, especially based on your experiences.

      Anyways, I'm signing off from this thread now.

      Take care,

      Mike
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    • Well by all means, don't let this thread change your opinion of me. I'm really just a bumbling idiot that got lucky a few times, but only after I failed many more.

      Anything I've ever really accomplished in life was done so out of sheer idiot trial and error - abject failure, and the drive to get back up and keep going. No graduate study in the world will create that, only optimize it.

      Yeah, I've got some paperwork, but it's irrelevant because I obtained it years after my business success and for personal reasons - not professional.
  • Interesting thread.

    It seems to me that every single one of the giants in any industry was started by someone who knew every aspect of the business and knew how to perform every task. Sam Walton started with one tiny little general store that he ran himself. The Google guys started in a dorm room. Wozniak and Jobs. Gates and Allen. Edison started GE from his backyard shed. Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone and the telephone company. The Marriotts and the Hiltons started with one shop that they ran themselves. Carnegie invented the blast furnace not by masturbating over business school or engineering texts but by getting hot and dirty. All (or at least the vast majority) of great enterprises are started by people who get their hands dirty. Why is that?

    Since they knew every aspect of their businesses so well, they were able to develop highly efficient systems to grow those businesses. Yes, the system is important, but it's also important to know the nuts and bolts of what you're doing. If nothing else, it raises your credibility when you talk to investors, partners, and prospects.
    • [2] replies

    • Wait a minute. You mentioned "masturbating" and "getting hot and dirty" all in the same sentence. What's up with that? I thought this was a family friendly forum.
    • And then there are guys like Henry Kravis that started KKR and did one of the largest M&A deals in history (RJR Nabisco) and never once did anything but raise capital and hire managers.
  • I wouldn't call it sheer idiocy. And it hasn't made me think you're the greatest thing in the world. I just have more respect for you for your business knowledge.
  • I agree. Any extra skill is valuable. Depending on automated software does not give you the freedom to achieve your potential.

    People must learn to do the difficult things. How can you supervise the person to whom tasks are outsourced if you have no clue?

    Outsourcing is okay but may not even be necessary if you have the skill and time.
  • It may boil down to natural skillsets and personalty traits. Some people are more geared towards learning certain things than others. While I think that near anyone could learn the basics I think it is harder and more time consuming for some to learn the skills - they'd just rather pay or beg someone else to do it than learn themselves.

    Not saying it's right - but it is what it is. At the end of the day the guy who does get a strong foundation and teaches himself the basics will usually surpass the other guy who didn't. This is true in most every area of life...

    Just my .02


    Jay
  • Having a detailed plan is not possible at the start of the process, there are too many unknown variables, you may have a framework sure, in fact it is essential to have a framework and this should include outsourcing as soon as practicable. However at the pure start-up stage, the environment you are operating in is unknown, and you are cash poor.

    The start-up stage is not usually predictable and structured but chaotic and most likely it will fail -95% of start ups do. It's a sort of chaos theory, you are taking hundreds of actions but are not yet clear what the outcome is, it will usually not what you expected or failure , but eventually something will click or work. What works may not be what you thought would work, and new methods may have emerged from the failures.

    But when something does work you can refine it further, you are no longer in the unknown but you have the start of a mechanism or system that works, you keep doing this over until you have more mechanisms. Once you know what the mechanisms are that are making you money, you can begin to outsource and crucially, start making the correct strategic calls to develop the business i.e, strategic partnerships, leverage, and scaling etc.

    However none of this is possible if you had not taken action and entered the unknown, chaotic, uncomfortable, environment where you had a high risk of failure. This is the hardest place and it is the people who are prepared to go through this lonely difficult phase, that will eventually be successful, this phase cannot be skimped it has to be done. Having the technical wherewithal to do many of the tasks, even at basic level, makes this initial phase easier. The key is to be aware that you will move out of this initial phase as soon as is practicable.
  • >Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?

    It's because starting in IM seems to be easier than the learning curve of web development
    • [ 2 ] Thanks
  • Ill admit, I havent read over every post in this thread, however suggesting that an Internet Marketer should possess web development skills is like telling property developers that they need to learn how to lay tiles and paint walls.
    • [1] reply
    • Johnny, do yourself a favor and read the whole thread. You will learn a lot. I've been earning my living online for 11 years, and I learned a lot. Trust me, it will be worth your time.

      For anyone reading a few posts and jumping to the end to make a comment, read the thread first. That's standard forum etiquette, but most likely what you want to say has been said already, and perhaps debated brilliantly. There's much too learn herein, it's one of the most interesting threads of the year.
      • [1] reply
  • Why would some one learn technical stuff while they can easily outsource it ?
    • [1] reply
    • Read the OP. It wasn't technical stuff that was asked about. It was basic web design and copywriting.

      If you don't have the money to outsource then you either have to learn to do it yourself or not develop that part of your business until you DO have the money.

      Like Dennis said, there's a lot of great business insights and information shared in this thread from some very experienced (and successful) folks.

      Take care,

      Mike
  • Maybe for some they work best in a certain area of business. Like a company has several departments and these departments are assigned to do certain tasks which they specialize in. For some, they have all the ideas on how they can get people to buy their products/services, advertise, improve their business, management, etc. and have someone else do the application or web development, programming, and so on. Just as long as they're on the right track and meet their goal.
  • Is this thing still going? Wow, I think we created an infinite loop .
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • [3] replies
    • Thank you for reading this thread.

      If you take in a deep breath, you may notice an odd smell. That's the smell of a dead and beaten horse. However, your post is important to us.

      If you'd like to post without reading the whole thread, please press 1 now.

      If you'd like to agree with the OP, please press 2 now.

      If you'd like to disagree with the OP, please press 3 now.

      If you'd like to post just to bump up your post count, please press the "forum eject" button on your keypad.

      If you'd like to speak to a live person, please be advised that many of the main posters have left this thread to do something more productive.

      Once again, thank you for your post.
      • [ 4 ] Thanks
    • Rick, you'll find that once in awhile a WF thread will take off and seem to take on a life of its own. This has the makings of one of those threads.

      Most of the time they either run out of steam eventually or get so big and unwieldy that no one actually reads them before posting. With luck, valuable threads like this one get locked to preserve what's here while keeping out the sig pimps and link spammers who inevitably start showing up.
    • I'm amazed why so many people complicate things.. even with their opinions on this thread

      As for myself, basic web design skills helped me, I don't need to outsource ftp, editing/modifying salesletter, etc . I know some people don't have the basic skills but still they're successful, and that's ok

      But I think it's something that has to do with this era... same basic skills are expected. Just like it was when PCs were just starting to appear.. Now even the super marketers can turn on/off PC/notebook, right? Before there were small group of people that were fans of computers existed and internet was only a scifi dream..right? Now let's look around.

      I take the basic web devel/design as a small next step...

      That's my 2 cents.

      Marian
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  • I can totally understand this problem. I've noticed it time and time again, because I happen to be a web designer. It's something I enjoy and have had a lot of practice at.
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    RANT: Why do so many IMers lack basic web development?

    Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that so many IMers don't bother to learn basic web design? The common excuse seems to be the ol' "I should outsource this" mentality, but I can't imagine someone outsourcing the ability to "type" or "read". It's the 21st century, and this industry is built around the Internet. Learning how to create, publish, and maintain your own website is absolutely critical to long-term success.