Is the WSO dying?

by 104 replies
132
I know that I'm being contentious and possibly biting the hand that feeds but I believe that it is time to ask the question...has the WSO as we know it had its day?

Consider the evidence.

Nowadays, if you post a WSO, you can expect to disappear from the front page within a matter of 8 to 12 hours unless you are lucky enough to get a mass of traction in the very beginning.

And in an effort to get such traction, it seems that the title headlines that marketers attach to their WSO offers might just be getting more and more outrageous.

At the risk of setting myself up for a classic pratfall here (with 2 WSO's out there...), I swear that there are times when the headlines make me think I should expect the second coming at the very least!

Even just a year a two ago, a decent WSO would pull in plenty of business.
Now, it's a hundred times harder and I wonder just how many members - especially new folks - who have heard how great the WSO system is are completely jacked off right now.

Now, your offer disappears faster than the Titanic, so I come back to the question - is it worth doing?

Of course, those who have done well from WSO's in the recent past will say 'yes' whereas those whose $20 was a waste of time will say the opposite.

Either way, it seems to me that the proof is incontrovertible. Making money from WSO's is an awful lot harder than it was...

But before you accuse me of whining, hear me out because this is not a 'woe is me' self-pitying kick at the cruelties of life (my offer is doing pretty well as it happens).

Instead, I have both a theory as to why it's happening and a proposed solution about how the system could be shaken up to make it far more profitable for everyone.

The obvious reason why it happens is because everyone posts a WSO nowadays. Okay, that's partly true, but I believe there is more to it.

From what I see, part of the problem is the 'bumping' system, the ability to get any WSO that has dropped down the pecking order back to the top by paying $20 to get it bumped.

What this does is puts offers that have 1000, 2000, even 3000 accumulated views back on top of the pile.

Warriors log in, see these posts with huge 'popularity ratings' already attached and think 'Wow, that offer must be good' so they take a look. This is especially true when the offer is compared to other offers that have only 100 or 200 views recorded - i.e. the new offers.

Those who already have thousands of views accumulate 100's more whilst the new offers pick up a small handful here and there.

Is this giving the new offers a fair crack of the whip? I cannot say for definite but there are certainly grounds for doubting it.

So, here's a proposed solution for leveling out the playing field, a way of giving new offers their chance to at least get seen.

How about creating a two-tier WSP system?

One tier (where everyone starts) is for new offers only whilst every offer that gets bumped appears in the other WSO forum.

In this way, Warriors who just want to see what is new log into one system whilst those who want something that is proven and battle-tested hit 'WSO2' or whatever it's called.

And individual members of both groups get to see their offers nearer the top of the page for longer, meaning that both have more chance of doing the business.

Okay, the obvious argument against this is that you're splitting the number of members who might see your offer in half but is that really true?

I suspect not because maybe with only a certain amount of time available to browse the WSO pages, it is far easier to browse two front pages than it is to dig around in the mass of offers that the WSO features now.

Anyway, that's my penny's worth.

How about a two tier WSO system?

What do you think?

Cheers

Steve
#main internet marketing discussion forum #dying #wso
  • I do think it is reminiscent of the IM industry in general as the field is more crowded now and I believe we're going to continue to see this trend continue.

    For those of us that take it seriously, I don't think it is a problem.

    That being said, I think your example is a good one in that it reminds us that relationship building is important in everything we do, including the time we all spend here on WF.

    2 tier system might make sense though, especially if people are regarded for giving back to the WF community through posts that garner "thanks"
  • One thing to consider is that the WSO forum doesn't guarantee
    you traffic. You may get some, but as you've noticed, lots of
    other people want the forum traffic too.

    What you could be doing is driving your own traffic to your WSO -
    via sig lines and other methods.
  • I completely understand your post, Steve....

    I'm not sure that anyone should rely exclusively on their WSO being on the front page (and visible on WF) for very long....

    I have been doing quite well with mine because, even when the WSO slips off to oblivion, I still have the ability to link to it and send outside traffic directly to it through a variety of sources....

    Honestly, I'm not sure if I would even consider posting a WSO if I didn't have the pre-established means and avenues to actually promote the WSO outside of WF....
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    • I do also think that the current WSO system does quite well at shifting the success or failure of the WSO to the actual person who began the WSO....

      By this, I mean, one should be active in maintain and building their WSO. As you establish relationships with people, and give review copies, you can kindly ask people to leave reviews....

      In fact, if your product is great, even if it wasn't given specifically as a "review copy", there are alot of times will people will come back and post about it in your WSO thread.

      If you provide high quality and value, people will take notice....they may even ask to sign up for your mailing list (to see what other projects you have up your sleeve)....
    • Thanks guys,

      Every viewpoint happily accepted.

      Like I said, I've done very well from the WSO forum so this is not a complaint.

      But I do wonder whether there might be some merit in a two tier system to protect those who come in perhaps expecting too much,

      Anyway, who knows?

      You tell me

      Steve
      • [1] reply
    • This comes up at least quarterly.

      No, it's not dying. Unless Allen Says gets tired of these type of posts and he kills it himself as he's indicated in the past.

      Marketing landscapes online change all the time. We need to adapt or die (not the medium ie WSO's).

      It used to be a lot easier and cheaper to make money with PPC, AdWords, AdSense, eBay, etc. and yes WSO's as well. But just because it's now tougher it doesn't mean it's dying. We need to step it up.
      • [1] reply
  • I have only posted 3 WSOs in 2.5 years. I rarely go over there. If I see something I need then I will grab it but otherwise I stay on the main forum.
  • Two words ... market forces

    I don't see how you can describe the forum as being busier than ever and ask if it's dying. If it was dying we'd see less people using it not more.

    What is true now is that it's more competitive and you can no longer treat it as a one stop shop for your IM marketing. Where as a year or so ago you could build your entire business around running WSOs it's now cost prohibitive and you're forced to consider other marketing channels as well.

    But the number one traffic driver for WSOs remains making high quality contributions to the forum with a sig link to your offer. Nothing (apart from mailing your list) drives up views of your offer quicker.

    Just my 2c,

    Andy
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  • Yes, it's changed.

    Change, though, is a part of life.

    I've had bumps that resulted in zero* sales. I've also had WSO's that have led buyers into becoming affiliates - one of whom made me (and him) mid-4-figures in sales.



    *Zero immediate sales - I always get a surge of opt-ins from my free WSO, even when I've bumped a different WSO.
    • [3] replies
    • Far from it - and it is not just about being on the front page (although that helps).

      If you have a truly unique thing to offer, and you list it properly - you can get tons of exposure.
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    • I do not Know if WSO is dying. However, I believe that you should use other media as part of your overall marketing mix.
    • I like to think of the WSO as a testing grounds... see what people want... get some sales... gain affiliates.

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  • I agree that the WSO is reflecting the industry in general--it's tougher
    to make any sales these days. More competition and a lot more skepticism
    as the market comes of age.

    It's no fun to see your offer scroll off the first page. Perhaps Allen could
    borrow Adsense algorithm so the better and higher bids get placed at
    the top of the page. Then the customers would determine what stays
    on the first page. I know this is just wishful thinking but every other
    'solution' has a drawback including the two forums of old and new WSOs.

    -Ray Edwards
    • [2] replies
    • lol...and, it's even worse when it happens so darn quickly.....

      ...that's why it's so important to set up avenues and channels OUTSIDE of Warrior Forum, and drive the traffic to your WSO on your own....
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    • Allen doesn't get paid by sales volume he gets paid by post/bump volume ...
  • Although it's more competitive, you've got to remember the Warrior Forum community has grown, specially over the last 12 months due to the economic climate.

    So what does that mean?

    Although it is more competitive, there's also more "Eyeballs" on your offers at anyone time.
  • For what it's worth, when I come to the WF I always note how many people are viewing and where. For years I've noticed that the number of people viewing the WSOs were usually 3x the viewers of the main discussion forum but lately it's been only 2x if even that. Could your lack of WSO success be merely due to fewer warriors interested in them?
  • Banned
    I would not rely my income solely on a WSO Forum.

    Use it as leverage, test the market, build a list, get some reviews.

    The WSO market is now competitive - you have to stand out from the crowd and offer quality WSOs at an affordable price.

    Gone are the days when people could crank out $2000 in a space of a day with a simple 10 paged report - times have changed. The market is not stupid - treat them like your friend, and life-long customer and they will always buy from you - everytime you post a WSO.
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  • Instead of a two tiered system what about an identification system?

    So as an example, new wso's will be given a distinctive icon, colour, font size etc (you could test it)
    Bumped wso's could be given another icon identifying them as 'bumped' wso's.

    This has personally bugged me as well as when I'm checking out the new products, you can't really tell which ones are legitimately new from those that have been bumped unless you don't empty your link history.
  • Not really dying actually. It's going through a change, like everything else.

    I've not experienced a dip in sales. Views, yes... but my overall sales have increased.

    People have to adapt. As far as the problems go - others have already said - the forum management is probably aware of that and they must be taking steps in the favor of this forum.
  • what about keyword targetting to rank on Google. That will make it sell...
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  • Ok, I've had a couple people ask me recently if there was a "how to succeed with a WSO" post somewhere.

    And since I have never done one, I didn't know where to send them.

    I suppose someone has a WSO on "how to do a successful WSO"?

    help appreciated.

    thanks,
    Roger.
  • So true.

    They oftentimes utilize the marketing tactic of offering a hugely exaggerated sales copy/title, a crappy product, along with a very low price....

    The technique of such a low price is the fact that MANY people will purchase, and few will think it's not 'worth it' to ask for a refund..... "Ah, I'll just let it go...it ONLY cost $5 afterall...."
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    • This technique doesn't do much for one's reputation, especially if they'd to be known for providing quality products and value to customers who will purchase over and over again....

      Not a worthwhile strategy, in the long run, IMHO....

      People get what they pay for.

      If you KNOW you have a good product, charge what you believe it is worth....and, don't be intimidated by all the crap $7 products out there....
  • Nah, the WSO section is getting more powerful if you ask me.

    If you post a WSO now it'll quickly move to the 2nd page that's true. A few
    months ago it didn't move that fast. But a few months ago the WSO section
    wasn't as active as it is now.

    The views for the section used to be at 300-600. Not it exceeds 1000
    a lot of time during the day, which means more exposure to your WSO.
  • I'll admit it can be discouraging to put in a lot of effort only to see a WSO scroll off the 1st page in a few hours. There is already a separate area to sell websites. Perhaps the WSO board can be split into topics:

    Money Making
    SEO and Backlinks
    Free Stuff
    Grab Bag

    .
    • [1] reply
    • While browsing the offers in the past, I've thought if the offers were categorized it would help me find what I need. Then you'd have those who want them all in one category because they just want to browse and aren't looking for anything specific. Perhaps a main category where everything is listed as they are now, and separate sub-forums where offers are sorted by topic as you suggest.

      Offers would still fall off the main forum as fast as ever, but should stay longer on the sub-forum from pages. Allen could charge an extra fee to be listed in the sub-forums. I'd pay an extra $20 for that, at least the first time, until I could measure the results.

      Of course, anything that is done adds more layers of complexity, either on the back end or for users. Maybe it's best left alone. It's hard to speculate when we only see the user end.
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  • I think if you have an awesome product that delivers exactly what it promises - and helps people get what they want - then you will be successful and make money, whether that's through a WSO or in any niche you decide to launch a product in...

    In my experience, if you put the time and effort in and help people out - you will reap your rewards...
  • If you can't make a profit from $20 in a forum of this targeted nature, you're not in the right biz (i'm not speaking to you personally, just hypothetically).

    Secondly, what really matters is offering something of tremendous value and uniqueness, and the ability to write good headlines, despite the growing noise.

    The more everyone tries to parrot each other (which is happening more and more these days), the easier it is for those with creativity and a REAL USP.

    Finally, I think Warriors are smart enough to know the thread view thing. Even though I have no doubt it may influence eyeballs initially, Warriors still know what's going on.

    It wouldn't dwarf your offer, if your offer was and is good enough and strong enough to compete.

    And besides, people will always send their list traffic to the WSO thread when it goes live, which will inflate view counts, and you can't do much about that.

    On several ocassions, I would break even on VERY busy days, and I just kept paying, and investing, until I was getting traction.

    That's the price of such a targeted, responsive and proven marketplace at your finger tips.

    Personally, I'm surprised it's still only $20...you can't beat that price for the ROI on a good WSO.
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    • lol...don't say anything....you could jinx it....

      (I'm surprised too that it's only $20, as well...)
  • I suppose it also depends how you optimise your WSO.

    I mean do you optimise it to pick up several opt-ins or just rely solely on the traffic for fast cash?

    I do like the idea of this 2 tier system though and I think if it were to go ahead and was explained in a post by Allen it could work. I for one often browse WSO's and would like the option to go and see new WSO's only if I wanted.
  • AS far as i've noticed... the WSO section has started getting a lot less sales than it used to.
    I've posted quite a few of them, and they ALWAYS disappeared from sight in a matter of 4-6 hours. That, in my opinion, is not enough time for a WSO to gather enough eyeballs so as to be able to make a lot of sales.

    I've had to bump my WSOs like, 4-5 times before I was satisfied with the number of sales made...
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    • I'm just grateful we have a WF forum in it's entirety. There have been literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions made from this forum. Much less what the Warrior members have made outside the WF because of the foundation they established for their business here in the WF.

      This wheel is not broken nor is it dying. It is very much alive and well. No 2 tier system is needed or a personal evaluation of a WSO before it's launched. You and I are adults and we are responsible for our own actions.

      If you buy it and it stinks go after a refund, even if you have to do a charge back or open a dispute in PayPal or Clickbank.

      Ken Leatherman

      The Old Geezer
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  • The thread definitely isn't dying. I'm personally trying to carve out some time to put together a WSO myself ... it's just that the darn paying clients keep getting in the way.
  • The usual bleating:

    1) "Oh, I paid $20, and all I got was 3 hours on the front page"
    2) "Oh, I paid $20, and all I got was 3 sales"
    3) "Oh, I paid $20, and all I got was this lousy excuse"

    There's *nothing* wrong with the WSO format. At all.

    Like Nick said, if you can't turn a profit from your investment, you need to look at your:

    a) Offer - is it something people want?
    b) Copy - have you made those people realize it's something they need?

    ...before you start "blaming" the platform...take a look at a) and b)...

    Cheers,
    Steve
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  • Hi All.

    I've not been a member here long enough to compare one WSO offer to another but it's worth remembering that this is THE largest forum of it's type online and, by definition, EVERY aspect of it is going to be busier than ever.

    I guess it's a question that's worth asking but I can't bring myself to complain when I have the same opportunity to promote myself and my products as everyone else.

    My preference is to post a WSO, bump it a few times, but concentrate on linking traffic to the offer through email marketing, blog posts, etc. This way I can make the WSO work for me even when it has slipped off the front page (which, as we all know, can happen pretty quickly).

    All the best,

    Steve.
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  • Another way to make WSOs stay on the front page longer and reduce the number of bumps would be to simply increase the price.

    Raise the price of a WSO to $50 and you'll suddenly get more time at the top.

    Cheers,
    Stephen Dean
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    • Now we get into economics, Steve.

      Maybe Allen reckons (until now, at least) that 20 beans is the best price. It keeps a healthy throughput, and makes a lot of folks a lot of money in the meantime. The dross falls by the wayside.

      I don't think the WSO board should pander to the whingers. Indeed, aren't you precisely the perfect type of WSO seller to make people realize they need to "increase their game" in order to compete effectively?
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  • I think back in the "good old days" the WSO section was much better than it is now. Seems like more of a free for all and less organized than it was before the forum changed to this new format. But I guess there are reasons for every change. It's Allen's forum and he can do what he wants with it. I am sure he already knows everything being discussed here.
  • Call me crazy, but speaking only for myself, I've always viewed the WSO forum as a way of giving back to the members by giving something of value at an insane discount and at the same time use it as a market test. But I'd like to think all my WSOs made a profit because the members saw the value.

    I realize some people try making a living off WSOs (which I think is a risky proposition) but it appears to me that some people miss the whole point of having a Warrior Special Offer forum. Which reminds me, I haven't had one in a loooooong time!

    RoD
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  • Economics...

    $20 times 120 posts = 2400 smackers (Allen loves it!)

    And thats every 12 to 24 hours....depending on how long it takes you to get to page 3.

    No matter what anyone says - if you can run an offer there and you can pay 20 bucks and make 40, then do it again, and again, and again.

    If you run it for 20 and make 200, or 1,000, how can you say it's not worth it or it's dying?

    Here's the thing: it's simple supply and demand. When the time you spend on page 1 gets down to an hour or so, THEN people will quit posting....which will automatically make the time on page one longer.

    Allen's system is a self balancing system. It works because it corrects itself.

    No worries and I think this takes care of this topic. :-)
  • Well, the forum is definitely evolving.

    I've only been here a year, so this is only speculation, but I believe when the WSO forum was first started it really was just that... a "Special Offer" forum. It still says so in the Rules ("This is not a Buy My Product Forum, it is a Special Offer forum), though these days some people ignore that and treat it as a Buy My Product forum. I'm not talking about those who create offers exclusively for Warriors - I'm talking about the people who, have heard from the grapevine that the WSO forum is an easy quick buck, so they scrape some crap PLR product together and slap a "How I make $500 a Day" tag on it, even if they haven't done the method themselves.

    I know there's been a lot of griping about low-quality WSOs as of late, but truth be told I think those who spew out low-quality material just to make quick cash get outed pretty easily. I remember even a free WSO awhile back where somebody posted a "How to Make $500/Day with CPA Offers", but there was no step-by-step, $500 was just a number he pulled out of thin-air so he could wave CPA 101 in our faces to get on his list. The way he pulled it off, I actually felt a bit bad for the guy - he took action, which was a step further than most newbies ever get, but ultimately he was hurting himself.

    Those who've been around the block here, know - if they provide a SPECIAL OFFER (as opposed to a Buy My Product Pretty Please with Whipped Cream and a Cherry) to expand their customer base as well as give back to the Warrior Forum, they will do well. This means though, that at the end of the day the WSO forum really isn't for beginners - it's not enough to just build up a reputation around here, but if you're going to teach how to make money online, you have to have made money online at some point. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I think it's pretty easy to tell who's made money by actually DOING the method they teach, as opposed to merely selling it.
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  • MoneySoapBox:

    Well said, I've noticed some of the same things.
  • WSO's used to be one the first page for 3 or 4 days, now I've seen them gone in hours... but I wouldn't say they're dying, just evolving.

    There's more potential for sales now then ever. There's more people browsing the forum then there used to be and with bumping, there's a lot more potential to get your offer in front of a lot more people and make a lot more sales.
  • Ok, here is a little (not so) secret to getting your WSO noticed. Its a simple formula:

    More Activity = More Views = More sales/signups.

    Try to get one or 2 warrior members to review your WSO, and remember to ALWAYS reply to every post made. A WSO thread without activity is as good as a dead whale, even if it is the best offer in the world. Hope that helps!
  • I have *significantly* cut back on my WSO postings, i have to admit that 2 or 3 hours on the first page can be very frustrating. Mind you, WSOs cost money...

    I also heard that some people literally conduct practices like "WSO bump services" aka bumping their (and others) WSOs in hourly intervals. I cant and dont want to compete with this crazyness.

    Furthermore there is a bigger influx of low quality WSOs (aka "e-whoring" and flaky CPA techniques) which i would rather not see in the WSO section.

    I myself already thought many times about that old and new WSOs should be separated. Frankly, i think *something* needs to be done.
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    • I agree - low quality WSOs + negative comments on WSOs being deleted = trust in WF will be lost in the long term.

      I avoid looking at WSOs because I don't trust the system. The system used by most other sites (Amazon, Flippa etc.) works better where both positive and negative feedback is allowed.

      I posted probing questions on WSOs to have them deleted by the mods. We surely wouldn't want a tough question to harm the success of a WSO now would we?
      • [2] replies
  • Personally Im in this for the long haul. I see the WSO section as the cheapest way to get an insane amount of laser targeted traffic to something you have to offer. If you only get 2 - 3 hours exposure then your offer, title and sales page etc should be designed around this fact in order for you to get the most out of the system ie you should offer quality and the rest will take care of itself.

    I will then use whatever feedback, cash and optins etc to further develop my product or business to make more money either within the WF or outside.

    Just my 0.02
  • This may be hard to admit but it can be somewhat expected as OUR FORUM is Arguably the best FORUM around.. =)

    But in another light yes it does take some effort to not pay attention to every new tom, dick and sally that comes into our forum... :/

    The main thing is that Allen continues to encourage Respectful Behavior among members...haha
  • I am not so sure that it would take more moderation. If so it would be minimal. I mean 100 posts is 100 posts no matter what category they are in. You still have to moderate 100 posts.

    I do see this as a possible hassle though for the newbies though. I mean everyone going into the "NEW" wso thread would be on guard prior to even entering. That could hurt the "new players"

    If you do some research into these forums, you can see a trend of the times people post heavy in the wso thread. They are trying to get their ad out while the most people are online. IMHO this is NOT the best route to take. Find the times/days that are light on new posts(avoid Tuesday afternoons) and your post will get a lot more exposure..


    If you do some research, I am sure you can find the trends easy enough. This game has a huge learning curve and proper research is required to be successful. I think 20 bucks is a pretty cheap lesson

    The other thing I would do personally( I am not in the work from home niche) is get review copies out to a few of the heavy posters here before you even make your posts in WSO. You will be able to judge from that the success levels of your product(assuming you have a good pitch) not to mention, having a few people with thousands of posts say your product is good, could be the difference between success and failure.

    One last note: I think the new people need to watch out for posting their product near any of the "guru's" if possible. What I mean is if I see 2 ads posted for " Backlinking secrets" for example and one is by Joe blow(hope you are not a real member) and one by a Marketing super power, chances are Joe is not going to do well.

    This is all just the observation of a new member.

    PS Thanks to the guy who introduced me to the forums. His product was crap but the one sentence (check out the Warrior Forums) was awesome. Reading the forum posts from long time members is incredible. It is probably the only unbiased review of these products you will find on the net.. THANKS TO ALL!
  • A free or bargain basement might be a good idea. Lets face it free or $1 products are list builders - whereas products with some greater value come with a higher price point for a reason, maintenance of product, value, support etc.
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Internet Marketing is not dying. Its changing, change with it or sink. More emphasis on quality. More attention to specifics about users,
    for instance Today 7-10% of surfers are on a mobile device. Maybe you should target mobile users, or products aimed at mobile users.
    Or change your approach ie if you have an seo business for instance find a bunch of sites very low in search engines and email the owner and make them an offer to get them in 1st page. Use direct selling methods to gain marketshare.
    Think outside the box, think from the customer point of view.
    Hope that helps.
    Another fact, more people use internet than watch TV in North America. If anything the internet is alive and well, we just need to find products people actually want.
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    • Good points, fallen angel....

      Not sure if they meant "all of Internet marketing is dying" with this thread, or JUST "WSOs" (I don't believe they are...)....but, still good points....

      The wise and prudent IM'er, I truly believe, needs to flexible and change with changing times....

      Sometimes it's not such a bad thing to go against the grain a bit....and take an diligent and educated approach to doing the opposite, or something 'different', than what others advocate, in general. Of course, you can catch trends, like an exploding stock, but, sometimes it doesn't hurt to be a pioneer or trend-setter, if you know what I mean

      oh, and the internet is expanding each and every day and holds a tremendous amount of potential....don't feel like there isn't room for you or your ideas (anyone)....
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  • 132

    Is the WSO dying?

    I know that I'm being contentious and possibly biting the hand that feeds but I believe that it is time to ask the question...has the WSO as we know it had its day? Consider the evidence.