Bizarre WSO Titles: Marketing Genius? or Unfair Competition?

185 replies
....I really think I stumbled on a question here that could spur some serious debate.....

Unless I purchase a certain WSO, there's no way that I can tell if the product provides the information and support required to achieve the results that any WSO-runner claims....so, I am not pin-pointing any one particular WSO. I've been around here for a bit, and have seen some immensely popular WSOs, and, then, some that just fall by the wayside for one reason or another (bad sales copy? a bad offer? etc....)

It does 'seem' like some of the most successful WSOs are the ones that include something along the lines of "How I earn $10,000+/day...and how you can too...."....and these type of WSOs usually promise to reveal all their secrets for a mere $7....

Are these types of WSO's marketing genius? or do they create unfair competition for WSOs that don't make quite the same claims?....Let's face it, for a newbie visiting the WSO forum, who is contemplating posting a WSO, it REALLY can be a bit intimidating....and, if your methods and strategies, revealed in your product, would "only" bring someone in $500/month, those WSOs appear like they would be dead in the water against WSOs with headlines like "$10,000 in a day...."

What do YOU think? Marketing Genius? or Unfair Competition? Have you had experience on either end of this debate?...
#bizarre #competition #genius #marketing #titles #unfair #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    I Strongly recommend against purchasing any WSO that makes income claims. Any income claims.

    First, they're all lies, even if the creator and some customers achieved the stated returns. They have no way of knowing what anyone else will achieve, if anything at all. Second, while not all of those are pure scams, virtually all the scams use those kinds of subject lines. And the offers that promise refunds if they fail to get you those levels are also the most likely to change the rules and not deliver on requested refunds when they bomb.

    I'm going to start cleaning house in there very soon. As in, as soon as the forum stabilizes. Lots of stuff is going away.


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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      I'm going to start cleaning house in there very soon. As in, as soon as the forum stabilizes. Lots of stuff is going away.
      Can I make a personal request?

      A lot of people I know have been asking me whether things are okay to do in a WSO. I look at the rules and say "there's no rule against it, but if you're worried, check with the mods; open a help desk ticket." If they do, the answer is always "no."

      So when things stabilise... could we maybe update the written rules on WSOs? Everything is really scattered right now, it's hard to figure things out, and even when there's no rule against something - that doesn't mean it's allowed. The ban hammer has been dropping on some really good people lately, and they really didn't mean to break any rules, but it's just impossible to know all of them.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Caliban,

        One thing at a time. First, the stuff that clearly breaks the rules. No-one is getting banned in the process. Just told "Don't do this again."

        If they do it again, then things will get less pleasant. If they don't, it's all good. I'm not going to slam people for being confused.


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    • Profile picture of the author DogScout
      Thank you (I'd give a thanks, but my button is MIA)
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      I Strongly recommend against purchasing any WSO that makes income claims. Any income claims.

      First, they're all lies, even if the creator and some customers achieved the stated returns. They have no way of knowing what anyone else will achieve, if anything at all. Second, while not all of those are pure scams, virtually all the scams use those kinds of subject lines. And the offers that promise refunds if they fail to get you those levels are also the most likely to change the rules and not deliver on requested refunds when they bomb.

      I'm going to start cleaning house in there very soon. As in, as soon as the forum stabilizes. Lots of stuff is going away.


      Paul
      Oh please Mr Myers, if I can no longer sell my "How I Made $23 Gazillion Overnight While Loafing Around In My Bathrobe And Doing Nothing But Playing Games On My Playstation III" how will I ever pay next month's rent in my boarding house? I'll be back living in the garbage dumpster.
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      • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
        Paul - while you're looking at rules - to me rules 3 & 4 seem a bit contradictory.

        3 says if you are caught scamming you will be deleted from the forum. 4 says if you get scammed, don't complain to the forum or the mods. How can you know if someone is a scammer (rule 3) if victims aren't allowed to tell you (rule 4).

        I just thought the wording of those two might use a bit of tidying up.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Originally Posted by rosetrees View Post

          Paul - while you're looking at rules - to me rules 3 & 4 seem a bit contradictory.

          3 says if you are caught scamming you will be deleted from the forum. 4 says if you get scammed, don't complain to the forum or the mods. How can you know if someone is a scammer (rule 3) if victims aren't allowed to tell you (rule 4).
          That's not quite what it says. Rule #4 basically says the problem is between you and the seller, and that we can't do anything about it beyond banning the person found (or believed) to be scamming. It doesn't suggest that you not report it.

          Part of the challenge is that people have such wildly varying usages for the word "scam." Some folks use it in a strict sense, like deliberate misrepresentation of a product, failure to deliver, and the like. Others seem to think that if they see one line in a product or one feature in a piece of software that they've seen in other products they're being scammed.

          If you believe you've been scammed, report it using the help desk. Be specific about the problem, and be careful that you're not alleging wrong intent when it could be an error that would be fixed if the seller is contacted first.

          The seller should be your first contact in any case.


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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            I'm going to assume that if somebody posts a WSO with a title or piece of
            copy that violates the new guidelines that the WSO will not be approved
            and an explanation will be given along with the disapproval so that the
            poster can either fix the copy or decide not to run the WSO.

            Please correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption.

            To me, that's the only way to handle the problem, though there may be
            other possible solutions. I just can't think of them.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Steven,

              Assume nothing.

              I'll be handling the currently posted stuff, but I'm not the one who approves them. There almost certainly WILL be errors and miscommunications as the process gets smoothed out. And there will almost certainly be people who scream that things are unfair, or that there's some sort of conspiracy involved, especially when things slip through the cracks. And they most likely will.

              I shall be issuing tin foil hats as needed.

              I make no promises and assume nothing about how, or if, notification will be handled when a WSO is rejected.

              This clean-up will not be instantaneous. Currently posted offers that violate the rules will be allowed to scroll off the first pages, and may simply not be bumped or re-posted. The older posts (currently planned for page 5 or later) will be cleaned up as time allows.

              I am prepared for people to gripe at me about this. I am also prepared to ignore it.


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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Steven,

                Assume nothing.

                I'll be handling the currently posted stuff, but I'm not the one who approves them. There almost certainly WILL be errors and miscommunications as the process gets smoothed out. And there will almost certainly be people who scream that things are unfair, or that there's some sort of conspiracy involved, especially when things slip through the cracks. And they most likely will.

                I shall be issuing tin foil hats as needed.

                I make no promises and assume nothing about how, or if, notification will be handled when a WSO is rejected.

                This clean-up will not be instantaneous. Currently posted offers that violate the rules will be allowed to scroll off the first pages, and may simply not be bumped or re-posted. The older posts (currently planned for page 5 or later) will be cleaned up as time allows.

                I am prepared for people to gripe at me about this. I am also prepared to ignore it.


                Paul

                Thanks Paul. Sounds reasonable to me. I'm sure it will all work out in the
                end.

                Thanks for all you and the other mods do to keep this place from turning
                into total chaos.
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              • Profile picture of the author edlewis
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                I shall be issuing tin foil hats as needed
                Best line, ever......

                Just classic stuff. LOL!
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              • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                I shall be issuing tin foil hats as needed.

                *snap*

                Guess I have to scratch my "How to Make a Tin Foil Hat" WSO plans.



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                • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                  Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

                  *snap*

                  Guess I have to scratch my "How to Make a Tin Foil Hat" WSO plans.



                  Well, your WSO would not have broken any TOS that i'm aware of. I'm shocked you shared this entire method for FREE! Do you have a private members site on this subject? DIY Home Foil Apparel?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    DIY Home Foil Apparel?
                    And home furnishings...

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                    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      And home furnishings...

                      OMG, throw an orange shag rug on the floor and I'm moving in (I'm so not kidding).

                      lol, I'm sure someone is ready to toss me in there just by my saying I want to go.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Kelly,

                  Nice illustration. Maybe some videos to help the folks who can't read? And you could add some bullet points about keeping out the marketers' Jedi mind tricks, along with the mind control rays the government and aliens are bombarding us with?

                  Could sell. There's certainly a need...


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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  ** DISCLAIMER ** This is just my opinion and not to be taken as either
                  fact or right or wrong.

                  I personally don't have a problem with a sales page, WSO or otherwise, that
                  has something like this...

                  "I have been marketing for X number of years and in that time I have
                  earned X number of dollars. If you want to learn the things that I've learned
                  in that time and potentially earn what I do..."

                  And then go into the pitch about the product. I have no problem with that.

                  What I do have a problem with is this.

                  "I have been marketing for X number of years and in that time I have
                  earned X number of dollars. If you get my product, I guarantee that
                  you will earn that much money too."

                  I've simplified both pitches to as mundane copy as I can in order to
                  highlight the main point...making a guarantee of income.

                  That's what I have a problem with and that's what the FTC has a problem
                  with as well.

                  If somebody says that there is a potential to earn $X, I have no problem
                  with that.

                  Having said that, you have to look at the potential dollar amounts
                  themselves and take them with a grain of salt.

                  I'm more likely to believe somebody who says I could make $1,500 a
                  month than somebody who says I could make $15,000 a month, especially
                  if he's selling that product for $7.

                  That sets off all kind of red flags for me.

                  Again, this is just my personal opinion and Admin may very well decide
                  to disallow any income mentions in any WSOs at all...and that's fine as
                  long as the playing field is level for everybody.

                  This will, ultimately, force marketers to come up with a little more clever
                  marketing strategies than "Make $X monthly" which I myself am guilty
                  of, even if I only use the word potential.

                  In the long run, it will make all of us better marketers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Jensen
    I can almost guarantee the people with the big headlines ($10,000 per day) don't build much of a long-term relationship with their customers. Because once people buy their wso and find out it's a fraud they aren't going to buy anything again. But you have to admit, those people that are selling their wso for $7 on "How to Make $10,000 Per Day" are very generous. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Jason Jensen View Post

      I can almost guarantee the people with the big headlines ($10,000 per day) don't build much of a long-term relationship with their customers. Because once people buy their wso and find out it's a fraud they aren't going to buy anything again. But you have to admit, those people that are selling their wso for $7 on "How to Make $10,000 Per Day" are very generous. :rolleyes:
      I know I am probably rubbing a few people the wrong way with this post, but, isn't it the best interest of the entire community to safeguard the way WSOs are perceived?

      ....once again, I'm not saying that those "$10,000/day" WSOs don't work, but, to an outsider, it's difficult to NOT perceive the WSO forum as just a place where people make incredibly hyped up claims, tagged along with a nearly unreasonable price point.....

      $7 is great....but, do these people value their methods and strategies so little that they would resort to selling their product for $7? And...then, I have become so accustomed to hearing "well, we had just wanted to give other Warriors a chance to get in at a low price"

      Come on...I don't mean to be a jerk here....but, if you have developed methods and strategies that could really earn someone $3,650,000/year ($10,000 per day x 365 days)....shouldn't you be attaching at least a $1,000+ price tag to it....

      Based on those claims, especially if they are truly effective, your WSO SHOULD be in the vicinity of maybe $700 or $800 (compared to the $1,000 you would charge any one else, per the WSO rules).
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Jason Jensen View Post

      I can almost guarantee the people with the big headlines ($10,000 per day) don't build much of a long-term relationship with their customers. Because once people buy their wso and find out it's a fraud they aren't going to buy anything again. But you have to admit, those people that are selling their wso for $7 on "How to Make $10,000 Per Day" are very generous. :rolleyes:
      Honestly, those who engage in this type of marketing, I am sure, do really quite well over in the WSO forum. That is good for them, however, I'm not sure that it leaves the best 'image' of Warrior Forum.

      There is clearly a technique at play here....and elaborate marketing strategy.....provide significantly hyped up sales claims, and sell the product for $7 because you KNOW the buyer will end up saying "Well, it was ONLY $7...it's not even worth asking for a refund...."

      Some marketers are banking on that. Ingenious in a sense...but, I do think it doesn't exactly create the greatest image for Warrior Forum if people are constantly made to feel like they are being scammed.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    Wow Paul. Please tell us more. What is going on? What do you mean by 'when the forum stabilizes'? Is this why the forum has been unavailable a few days ago and earlier today. I was wondering what was going on. And I see the search function has gone away.

    Inquiring minds want to know. But I am not expecting an answer as this is probably confidential information.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tim,

      This has nothing to do with the forum being down, except that it has to wait until the stuff that's causing that to be fixed.

      No big secret. We're just going to enforce Rule #7 of the WSO section a bit more... proactively.


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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

    What do YOU think? Marketing Genius? or Unfair Competition? Have you had experience on either end of this debate?...
    I know a lot of people think that anything that sells is marketing genius ... you know, like making false claims, posting false testimonials, posting fake profit screenshots, wild income promises ...

    A lie is a lie and to call it marketing genius is an abuse of the term genius.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I know a lot of people think that anything that sells is marketing genius ... you know, like making false claims, posting false testimonials, posting fake profit screenshots, wild income promises ...

      A lie is a lie and to call it marketing genius is an abuse of the term genius.
      Maybe I'm just naive (or maybe it's that integrity that always harrases me...lol)...

      but....

      Do you think there are some people who DO post fake profit screenshots, for their WSOs?

      If so...that's pretty LOW....
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Do you think there are some people who DO post fake profit screenshots, for their WSOs?
        Yes. And they don't all get caught, which is one reason I recommend ignoring any alleged income proof.


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      • Profile picture of the author bay37
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Do you think there are some people who DO post fake profit screenshots, for their WSOs?
        Yup.

        Unfortunately, often times income claims are next to impossible to validate/deny.

        Also, something should be done about all the misleading "results" claims. Especially when it comes to proving that a certain back link building strategy or package works/is effective.

        I have seen too many c**** (I'm sorry, but this stuff is really getting on my nerves) selling link building packages/WSOs... taking advantage of new/inexperienced marketers and showing them completely bogus and absolutely ridiculous SERP screenshots as proof of results. This stuff is just as bad as fake income screenshots.
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Oh boy....

          I've been brainstorming this, and I have absolutely no idea how one would control for all the variables that could emerge in the WSO forum.....

          Obviously everyone wants to make money, so, unfortunately, that means, for some, snooping to pretty low levels to promote their product. Sometimes, I wonder if there is ever any room for honest and ethical sellers, in the world of IM.

          Let's face it....there is no way a newbie's WSO thread would have a chance in the world at standing out against a "Earn $10,000+/day" thread....

          Where do you we draw the line?

          I don't mean to cause a ruckus here....but, maybe it's good that these things be talked about and addressed now?....Whenever decisions are made, like in politics, one side stands to loose something while another side gains.....
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post


            Let's face it....there is no way a newbie's WSO thread would have a chance in the world at standing out against a "Earn $10,000+/day" thread....

            Where do you we draw the line?
            It's actually simple.

            You find someone you trust and follow their advice and guidance - only trust people who are referred to you from people you trust.

            Don't believe anything a stranger says to you.

            There are a lot of sayings about how people get parted with their money and they're usually to with being greedy, a crook or stupid.

            Greed is the main one around here because although people know that business takes work - they still want to believe there's a short-cut and so they shut off their internal BS detector when they see people promising the earth.

            Many of my coaching clients have already spent many thousands of dollars with 'guru's' (some of whom I haven't heard of) when they come to me and they have all sorts of stories of how badly they've been treated.

            The sad truth is that even if someone's claims of high income are true - that has zero relationship to whether you can make the same money.

            It's just a case of greedy and gullible people being taken advantage of.

            We're all been there and been stung and no matter what you tell some people they'll still buy some crap WSO promising to make them rich quick 'just in case' it works.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Clarification: I'm not dealing with the income claims at the moment. The first order of business is the stuff that's violating TOS of other sites, or that seems likely to. (We have no way to monitor all of them, so stuff like backlinking and social bookmarking software and services are out.)

              First round, two and a half pages. And a bunch of arguments, one possible mistake on my part, and more heat to come.


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              • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Clarification: I'm not dealing with the income claims at the moment. The first order of business is the stuff that's violating TOS of other sites, or that seems likely to. (We have no way to monitor all of them, so stuff like backlinking and social bookmarking software and services are out.)

                First round, two and a half pages. And a bunch of arguments, one possible mistake on my part, and more heat to come.


                Paul
                7. NO Software Or training material can be sold here that violates the TOS of other services or that teaches people how. We do not like people violating our own TOS and will not allow products to be sold that encourage anyone to violate others'. No exceptions.
                Has this rule been there the whole time or is it NEW[ish]?

                I'll guestimate that this will kill 30% of exisitng WSO's
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Has this rule been there the whole time or is it NEW[ish]?
                  Months, explicitly stated in the WSO rules thread. Much longer, if we go back to Allen's first saying it in the main forum.
                  I'll guestimate that this will kill 30% of exisitng WSO's
                  Not quite that much, but a good chunk, yes. If you want to bring it up to 30% or more, add in the ones with specific income claims.


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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Jeremy,
                    However, if some people here had their way, you wouldn't even be able to market - PERIOD.
                    Those people neither make nor enforce the rules.


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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Jeremy,Those people neither make nor enforce the rules.


                      Paul
                      Understood It's still irritating to read though, and there should be a "stop crying" button implemented immediately

                      Like I said in my email to you - I understand completely what you are trying to do, and not that it matters, but I support it 100%, and will help out where I can.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        there should be a "stop crying" button implemented immediately
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                        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Can this fee be paid in kind?

                          Like, will you accept a million links posted on high PR sites in lieu of actual cash?

                          Yeah, I know, everyone's a comedian.

                          Seriously though, I've read some of the disparaging remarks people have posted on other sites about the WF and WSO's in particlular, so the cleanout was LONG overdue.

                          Keep up the good work.
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                          It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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                      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        but I support it 100%, and will help out where I can.
                        Suck up...

                        Paul,

                        I'm not sucking up blah...I hate this I wanna take my ball and go home now...your no fun anymore...your being a big meanie... And Riley is behind it all!!!!!!!!!!!
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Don,
                          I hate this I wanna take my ball and go home now...your no fun anymore...your being a big meanie...
                          That will be $5, please.


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                          • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Don,That will be $5, please.


                            Paul
                            Great...just great!

                            I just spent it on a WSO that can make me $6 is 30 days for just $5...so can you hold the note for me until then? Cause I'm about to make my first $1 online baby!!!
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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Don,
                              I just spent it on a WSO that can make me $6 is 30 days for just $5
                              Did they mention that you'll need a dedicated server for that project?


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                              • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                Don,Did they mention that you'll need a dedicated server for that project?


                                Paul
                                SOB!! They get me every friggin time...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kella Bella
                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        Understood It's still irritating to read though, and there should be a "stop crying" button implemented immediately

                        Like I said in my email to you - I understand completely what you are trying to do, and not that it matters, but I support it 100%, and will help out where I can.

                        Well I'm over here crying cause I'm not making $3.99 a day like you yet. (sniffles a lil) Someday tho! hehe

                        I did just want to add though that I want to be treated special cause I am mods. And please don't anyone tell me that the world doesn't revolve around me because I know it does.

                        And about the smartass.......don't worry beats a dumbass :-)

                        I like the reasoning behind these changes being enforced.
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Do you think there are some people who DO post fake profit screenshots, for their WSOs?

        If so...that's pretty LOW....
        It's not just in WSOs.

        People post fake screenshots, rip off other products and even tell lies elsewhere on the web. It might seem prevalent in the WSO forum because

        1. People have recourse by posting in the thread (and contacting the helpdesk) which is often more than you have when you buy direct from someone's website.

        2. All the offers are focused in one place so naturally you are exposed to more complaints.

        As Paul said, assume nothing. When he's finished cleaning up the dodgy WSOs it doesn't mean the remaining WSOs are endorsed by the WF. You still have to do your own due diligence.

        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          It's not just in WSOs.

          People post fake screenshots, rip off other products and even tell lies elsewhere on the web. It might seem prevalent in the WSO forum because

          1. People have recourse by posting in the thread (and contacting the helpdesk) which is often more than you have when you buy direct from someone's website.

          2. All the offers are focused in one place so naturally you are exposed to more complaints.

          As Paul said, assume nothing. When he's finished cleaning up the dodgy WSOs it doesn't mean the remaining WSOs are endorsed by the WF. You still have to do your own due diligence.

          Martin
          Oh, I completely agree. Some responsibility and accountability should definitely be shifted to the buyer....however, I think it's becoming increasingly difficult for consumers to really figure out what is a good product, and what is just a crappy product hidden behind amazingly compelling sales copy....

          For my first product, I paraded around my $100/month screenshot....lol....the truth of the matter, if people were COMPLETELY honest, their products just wouldn't sell....so, people are left with some alternatives:

          1) Work even harder...refine their methods and products over months or years....and, THEN release it as a WSO or to the general product...
          2) Just fake everything, sell it at a low price point, and hope people don't ask for refunds. Sell in mass, and rely on the mentality that "it was ONLY $7, there's no need even wasting my time asking for a refund..."

          Unfortunately, IM seems to be approaching the second option quite often....leaving the legitimate products, with alot less exaggerated income screenshots, with not a chance in the world at succeeding. I have seen this on numerous occasions.

          I have serious doubts (can you blame me?) that people are doing what they claim they are doing....and, IF I were earning $10,000/day, there isn't a chance in the world I'd be selling those secrets for $7....kind of subtly makes a mockery of IM, in general, IMHO....
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I agree with Paul.

    I've never seen a monetary claim that can live up to its hype and I would advise people not to buy any WSO that makes such a claim.

    It's the easy option for lazy people who want desperate people to buy.

    People know that such claims are not likely to be true but they can't help themselves, so there will always be other members ready to take advantage of that.
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  • Profile picture of the author einfohound
    It's really not any different than any other form of marketing. Most of the TV ads, newspaper ads, and every other ad you see has a headline that quite often is unbelievable. I pretty much ignore the headlines and try to "read between the lines". Even better, I like (and use) the advice already given - stay around long enough to get to know some of the people, who you can trust and who to avoid.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    The WSO section is really The Matrix, and all tangible forms of income in all of the world are simply a metaphor for something that really happens in the WSO forum.

    The WSO section is The Borg.

    The WSO section is the Alpha and the Omega.

    All Hail The WSO Section!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      The WSO section is The Borg.

      The WSO section is the Alpha and the Omega.
      Now, now, Michael. It's only "all that" for people who don't listen when we tell them not to make that a big part of their income.

      Apparently, there are quite a few such people...


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  • Profile picture of the author badboy_Nick
    Hey

    Well, the make money online market is MASSIVE and hype does sell like nothing else. Not that the programs don't work, but they work equally good in terms of selling a lot of copies to hungry customers.

    It's marketing at it's best, really.

    Any questions just let me know

    Nick
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    This is a good thread.

    ...I can only add that I would also look at peoples longer term success and are they making money outside selling how to make money. This is a easier niche then many others to make money in, but I suggest to learn from someone who is making money outside the IM niche.

    Cheers,
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author markament
    Thanks for posting this. I actually bought my first WSO last night and was incredibly disappointed. The author did a good job creating curiosity and interest but failed to deliver in my opinion anything worth the $27 buck she asked for it. Interestingly it also starts with "How I make XXX dollars per day" Powerful headline and if there were follow through on it - like a specific plan - I would have liked it. As it is now, I stand as a person who feels taken advantage of. I have asked for a refund. If that doesn't show up, I will take the issue to paypal and file and official complaint. The sales copy is misleading.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Providing the WSO guidelines are met, I don't believe any title creates unfair competition. If bizarre works, then good on them. Your title is what gets attention and eyeballs so being creative is a good thing there. Obviously, lies don't fall under the "creative" umbrella, in my opinion.

      Tina
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Tina,

        There are some folks who would absolutely go broke if they had to sell without income claims and (sometimes faked) proof of sales.

        That crap is also the basis for the jokes among the folks at a few other forums, who laugh about setting up a WSO and "making money off the suckers."

        Yes, really.


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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          That crap is also the basis for the jokes among the folks at a few other forums, who laugh about setting up a WSO and "making money off the suckers."
          I have seen the jokes at other places. I'm glad that you guys are cleaning up the WSO section. It will be good to see it go back to what it once was.

          My post was only addressing the "unfair competition" aspect of the OP. I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of the crap eliminated. It's a positive step all the way around.

          I agree with what you say about people only making money here, too. I saw a number of people complaining about a loss of income when the forum was down last time and could only shake my head. Anyone who relies that heavily on only one site is not in business, in my opinion.

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        • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          That crap is also the basis for the jokes among the folks at a few other forums, who laugh about setting up a WSO and "making money off the suckers."

          Yes, really.

          Paul
          Yes, I've actually seen this quite a few times. Also, related comments like "Get lost, go peddle that **** over at the WF...", etc. It offends me to see these comments and I often respond (sometimes to my detriment ).

          TomG.

          If you need help Paul, I have my gas powered weed whacker ready.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

            Yes, I've actually seen this quite a few times. Also, related comments like "Get lost, go peddle that **** over at the WF...", etc. It offends me to see these comments and I often respond (sometimes to my detriment ).

            TomG.

            If you need help Paul, I have my gas powered weed whacker ready.
            This is what I hate to see ... I know that buyers should be more sophisticated and I know that buyers are dreaming if they believe much of the crap that is promised, but over and over I see newbies come in here and start threads saying that they just got screwed because they bought a WSO that promised this and didn't deliver.

            I'm like ... well duh. Did you really think you were going to make that kind of money with no effort or skills in your pajamas no less?

            But the fact is, there are gullible dreamers out there. Does that mean it's ethical to deliver what they are hoping they'll get? Money with no work?

            Not in my book. It's precisely that kind of marketing that has given Internet Marketing such a bad rep.
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            • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
              I really give credit to whoever is tasked with tackling this issue. No matter what changes are made, someone always stands to loose something....
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                I really give credit to whoever is tasked with tackling this issue. No matter what changes are made, someone always stands to loose something....
                Not tasked. Volunteered.

                Yes, some people stand to lose a lot of money if they have the right kinds of offers going. They had plenty of warning, as the rule was posted months ago. Until recently, the mods were only handling the ones people reported. I've decided to set the time aside to make it more proactive.

                I'm getting some comments from sellers about what they stand to lose. That's backwards. They made money they shouldn't have here, and that's how I'm going to look at it. I'm not stopping anyone from selling whatever they want elsewhere. There are plenty of other places they can advertise who will be happy to take their money.


                Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

            Yes, I've actually seen this quite a few times. Also, related comments like "Get lost, go peddle that **** over at the WF...", etc.
            We're a lot more like a major established corporation over here than we are like an agile startup team. The folks who complain about us are largely the same people who complain about "the man" and "the system" and would have complained about "the establishment" in the 1960s.

            We're bad because we're big, not because of what we do, and while the proportion of "wrongness" over here is no higher than it is anywhere else - we're a lot bigger, so there's a lot more of it. Which means you can pull anecdotal evidence out of your arse all day long, and people start to think this forum is full of scammers and thieves.

            The world is full of scammers and thieves. They're not on your rinky-dink forum because there's simply not enough money changing hands on it. Change that, and they'll show up overnight.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              The folks who complain about us are largely the same people who complain about "the man" and "the system" and would have complained about "the establishment" in the 1960s.
              Different people, dude. These are the black-hat types we're talking about. More like the Weathermen than hippies.


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              • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Different people, dude. These are the black-hat types we're talking about. More like the Weathermen than hippies.


                Paul

                Who? Like... do they have a band page on MySpace or something?









                j/k
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Michael,
                  Who? Like... do they have a band page on MySpace or something?
                  Have I told you today that you're a smartass?


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    Paul -

                    So wise of you to plan ahead - if the nuts here drive you to a padded room - at least that room has some style (not a lot, but some).

                    I would like clarification at some point as to whether sellers can pay affiliates to sell their WSO's. I thought a while back the answer was "no" in a post but some are doing it now so I may be wrong about that.

                    Good luck with this, Paul - I'm not going to offer advice as to what should be done - but will let the guy doing the work make the choices.

                    kay
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Kay,
                      I would like clarification at some point as to whether sellers can pay affiliates to sell their WSO's.
                      Nope. If they're doing that, point them out to me. Allen has been quite clear on that.


                      Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                        That's what I thought, but check out this thread - some interesting info - including an answer received that seems to say otherwise.

                        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...al-offers.html
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                          Don't people have anything better to do than to worry about what other people do?

                          Some people act as if marketing is wrong - if someone has a system that made them XXXXX, that it is wrong of them to say so. They get offended if they market in a way that they wouldn't, even though it is perfectly ethical...what gives?
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                          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                            Don't people have anything better to do than to worry about what other people do?

                            Some people act as if marketing is wrong - if someone has a system that made them XXXXX, that it is wrong of them to say so. They get offended if they market in a way that they wouldn't, even though it is perfectly ethical...what gives?
                            Some marketing is wrong and some marketing is not wrong. Seems to me with the new scrutiny by the FTC on the wrong way to market ... as in lies and fake information, testimonials, people would be learning how to market without using lies and deception.

                            What's the matter? Your product won't sell with the truth behind it? I'm not saying yours, in particular because I haven't even looked at yours, but you know as well as anyone that many of the claims being made are pure misrepresentation (lies) and that sort of "marketing" is under fire by the FTC.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                              Some marketing is wrong and some marketing is not wrong. Seems to me with the new scrutiny by the FTC on the wrong way to market ... as in lies and fake information, testimonials, people would be learning how to market without using lies and deception.

                              What's the matter? Your product won't sell with the truth behind it? I'm not saying yours, in particular because I haven't even looked at yours, but you know as well as anyone that many of the claims being made are pure misrepresentation (lies) and that sort of "marketing" is under fire by the FTC.
                              I want to explain something and to make sure that it is VERY CLEAR....

                              I personally have never used an income claim in my sales copy that I can remember. BUT, who are you or marketer A,B,or C to tell marketer D whether or not he can represent how much money he/she made?

                              If you feel it is illegal, then contact the FTC, but for the love of god, people need to stop whining and crying about:

                              1. The way some other marketer words his sales copy
                              2. How many emails a day a marketer sends out
                              3. What kind of graphics another marketer uses
                              4. How much a marketer is hyping their product
                              5. How some marketer does their SEO
                              6. What kind of characters someone uses in their thread titles


                              It's Allens forum, so it goes without saying that what he says goes here, I'm certainly not arguing the counter point to that, but I seriously can't see how some people make ANY money here on this forum, and I promise you the next time I see one of those folks complaining about not making money or looking for donations for this or that, I'm going to throw it in their face....count on it.

                              When I first signed up for this forum in Dec 2007, all of the information here had my head spinning. Now, you have to dig between the whining, crying, and self entitlement threads to get to anything good.

                              3 months ago, there would be 5 threads a day about the "special characters" that people would use in their thread titles in their WSO's - So, Allen cleaned it up, probably partly so he didn't have to hear the whining and bitching, now everyone is complaining about Black-Hat stuff, so Allen is cleaning it up....what's next?

                              Is this a Marketing forum or a marketing compliance forum? Sadly, I think quite a few people think it is the latter.

                              Now, just to be clear, I agree with what is currently going on as far as cleaning up the BH stuff, and making a run at cleaning up the WSO section. Hopefully, in addition to the BH stuff, they will also check for:

                              1. WSO's that are the result of threads on other forums - there are at least 3 sellers here that just troll other forums, find good info, create a product about it, and then sell it here.

                              2. Fake screenshots - If you have one, or have been known to have them you should be banned.

                              3. Making sure buyers have a pulse - I've seen people come in and buy $500 coaching packages after it was brutally clear that it was a scam....wake up people!

                              Personally, I would still like to have access to the slightly Grey-Hat stuff, as there is usually a way to incorporate it in a manner which is compliant, and very profitable...But, unless it is pure as driven snow, I suppose that a certain percentage here will find something to cry about rather than just chalking it up to "not for them".

                              So, keep whining and crying folks - There are marketers out there that are more than happy to pick up your portion of the money along with theirs...running around the internet and forum finding things that people are doing wrong WILL NOT PUT ANY MONEY IN YOUR POCKET.
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                              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                3 months ago, there would be 5 threads a day about the "special characters" that people would use in their thread titles in their WSO's - So, Allen cleaned it up, probably partly so he didn't have to hear the whining and bitching, now everyone is complaining about Black-Hat stuff, so Allen is cleaning it up....what's next?

                                Is this a Marketing forum or a marketing compliance forum? Sadly, I think quite a few people think it is the latter.

                                Now, just to be clear, I agree with what is currently going on as far as cleaning up the BH stuff, and making a run at cleaning up the WSO section.
                                I agree with the "characters" thing and whining in general, but as I said, you can't really legitimately discuss marketing without taking "marketing compliance" into consideration with the new FTC guidelines.

                                I rather suspect that the black hat stuff and the characters stuff was more because Allen didn't want it than because some whined about it. He spoke pretty clearly that he thought the characters were ugly. As for the black hat stuff ... there's plenty of other forums that promote black hat strategies and products so those who want it ... go get it.

                                His cleanup has more to do with not allowing others to use his forum to infest other sites with spam than it does with anything else and personally I'm glad to see that if you're going to speak out against spammers (as do the mods here), that you back it up with action rather than just words.
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                                • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
                                  Boggles my mind that people would stoop so low with fake screenshots. Maybe I'm just naive...I'm sure it's more rampant than I even think...

                                  I saw someone once post a link to a website that actually doctors Google Adsense earnings...

                                  That's pretty shady.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                  I agree with the "characters" thing and whining in general, but as I said, you can't really legitimately discuss marketing without taking "marketing compliance" into consideration with the new FTC guidelines.
                                  I think if you read back over the threads, the discussion isn't about compliance...It's more about "fair" and "unfair". Unfortunately, neither one of those things has to do with compliance.

                                  "The special characters draw attention away from the other WSO's"

                                  "Guru X sent me 3 emails today"

                                  "marketer A has a half dressed woman in his header graphics"

                                  "All the gurus just promote each others stuff"

                                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                  I rather suspect that the black hat stuff and the characters stuff was more because Allen didn't want it than because some whined about it. He spoke pretty clearly that he thought the characters were ugly. As for the black hat stuff ... there's plenty of other forums that promote black hat strategies and products so those who want it ... go get it.
                                  You might very well be right, but I can say fairly confidently that had their not been a million threads on either subject, that Allen would have been fairly content collecting his $XX,XXX a day, without adding any extra drama to his life.

                                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                  His cleanup has more to do with not allowing others to use his forum to infest other sites with spam than it does with anything else and personally I'm glad to see that if you're going to speak out against spammers (as do the mods here), that you back it up with action rather than just words.
                                  See above answer.

                                  For the folks that were doing what they were supposed to, the new rules will have little effect on them. I got an email from Paul letting me know that I could no longer sell my backlink service. Did I say "damn"? Sure...but, in the grand scheme, it doesn't and won't really affect my bottom line because there are so many other ways to advertise it and get customers.

                                  It is kind of disheartening though to still see "backlink packets" on the first page of the WSO forum, when there really isn't any difference between those packets and what I was doing - I guess it's just a matter of perception? One thing I can say with some certainty though is none of my customers have posted to my thread saying they got notice from some forum owner that they were spammers, and being reported to Google etc...but, it is what it is I guess.

                                  Depending just how "white hat" they go - The products, and discussions could get pretty boring here though...as I suspect with the new rules, there are 25 compliance fairies waiting in the wings, ready to spring into action with thing like:

                                  "Mods, so and so is selling an ebook, and in it they recommend you get 2 accounts at hubpages - that violates their TOS"

                                  "Mods so and so started a thread in the SEO forum about getting bookmarking their content at Digg and Digg says that you can't link to affiliate products - that person should be banned"

                                  Hopefully, the "line" will be one where the discussions here can still be effective and profitable for everyone.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                    What I am most curious to see is where the line will be drawn in sales
                                    copy as far as income claims or even income potential.

                                    For example:

                                    The difference between...

                                    "With this killer package, you can make an easy $10.635.94 a day"

                                    and

                                    "With this solid package, you have the potential to earn a realistic $1,500
                                    a month"

                                    Where will the line be drawn?

                                    Will both be disallowed or just the obvious exaggerated claim?

                                    Will any mention of any income amount, even implied, no longer be allowed
                                    in a WSO?

                                    Should be interesting to see where this heads.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                                    I don't know if this is possible, but a pop up box if someone hits the "promote" key might save some time and grief.

                                    Something that says "please make sure you have familiarized yourself with the most recent edition of the WSO rules before laying down that $20."

                                    It is sad looking down there and realizing the number of people who don't seem to have contributed to the forum - or have not come in to say hi and try to help someone with something before just bumping their offer.

                                    Someone like Jeremy doesn't fall into this category at all. He is a regular contributing member and his efforts to help are seen all over and recognized.

                                    And you may say "post count doesn't mean diddly crap on what someone may have to offer" - but this is not about post count so much as it is about being a regular contributing member to the forum in general.

                                    If someone comes here and just "takes" research, and posts a WSO - are they really a good contributing member? Are they helping anyone else other than themselves?

                                    Now before anyone goes all ninja on me for poking my head in to see the wrecking ball swinging, the above is just a thought and observation on my own part. It is starting to look quite a bit different in that area of the forum already.

                                    Jeremy, you have some outstanding clean as a whistle CPA bits that can be tacked together to make a really nice offer. I really hope you don't feel there is nothing left for you here as I enjoy your thoughts on things and I'm sure you still have plenty more to share with the rest of us.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                      Originally Posted by avenuegirl View Post

                                      I don't know if this is possible, but a pop up box if someone hits the "promote" key might save some time and grief.

                                      Something that says "please make sure you have familiarized yourself with the most recent edition of the WSO rules before laying down that $20."

                                      It is sad looking down there and realizing the number of people who don't seem to have contributed to the forum - or have not come in to say hi and try to help someone with something before just bumping their offer.

                                      Someone like Jeremy doesn't fall into this category at all. He is a regular contributing member and his efforts to help are seen all over and recognized.

                                      And you may say "post count doesn't mean diddly crap on what someone may have to offer" - but this is not about post count so much as it is about being a regular contributing member to the forum in general.

                                      If someone comes here and just "takes" research, and posts a WSO - are they really a good contributing member? Are they helping anyone else other than themselves?

                                      Now before anyone goes all ninja on me for poking my head in to see the wrecking ball swinging, the above is just a thought and observation on my own part. It is starting to look quite a bit different in that area of the forum already.

                                      Jeremy, you have some outstanding clean as a whistle CPA bits that can be tacked together to make a really nice offer. I really hope you don't feel there is nothing left for you here as I enjoy your thoughts on things and I'm sure you still have plenty more to share with the rest of us.
                                      Anything else that I offer here will be pure as the driven snow All of the "creative" stuff will just go to the list
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                        Anything else that I offer here will be pure as the driven snow All of the "creative" stuff will just go to the list
                                        Ok, well just be sure to email me on how I sign up to the "creative list." lol
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                          Right now there are 5 - count them 5 threads on the first page of General Discussion about WSO's - LMAO

                                          People don't put enough effort into their WSO's
                                          People make bold claims in their WSO's
                                          The rules should be changed
                                          etc
                                          etc
                                          etc

                                          What I don't get is, do the majority here, only come here to buy products, or better yet, do they ever look at the big picture? lol If you don't like a particular persons products, the claims they make, their avatar, their refund policy, etc - why not just not buy their products?

                                          Why the need to try and force people to fit your mold? Ultimately, each and every one of us gets to decide what we buy, how much we pay for it, and where we buy it.

                                          It's almost like some sort of tunnel vision where people think that Marketing is The WarriorForum and that WSO's are the ONLY place to buy or sell products...live a little folks...seriously.

                                          Selling WSO's is great for extra cash, vacations, hell - I bought a new car CASH after a WSO lol - Allen lied when he said "how this forum can make you 50K a year" - I personally know people that have done 150K+ over a 12 month period - But the level that people get "caught up in it" really baffles my mind as does the levels that some will go to try and control the way other people do business.

                                          I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I think that a pretty big portion of people here have all but given up on actually making money, and come here only for the social interaction, which is fine, but I think it does a disservice to those people, especially newer ones that are here to get a start.

                                          Case in point - How many "donation" threads have there been here on the WF over the past 2 years? Guess what they all have in common...In each and every case, it was for some person that is always preaching to the masses to "have a real business" etc - I guess they didn't take their own advice?

                                          If you want to be in business - then be in business - But, in my opinion, being in business, has little to do with the way the guy down the street does business if that makes any sense...

                                          Make your own way, find out what works for you, and spend as little time as possible buying into the bull**** that some folks will spew, when it is obvious that they aren't taking their own advice...They just like to talk and say things because they "sound good"
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Anthony La Rocca
                                            Yep yep yep and...yep!

                                            I feel wayyyyyyyyy too much time has been wasted in this discussion. If you expand your mind to a websites true TOS, 99% of methods that mention using Site X to make Profit Z, then breaks their TOS of making money from Site X's property. You could easily say the same thing about Warrior Forum charging people $ for wso's when they are profiting from the methods one has made that is " breaking" tos in the first place.

                                            In the end its buyer beware, and if you are honest about your product and not out to rip anyone off, then the rest should be an even playing field that is almost an "art form".

                                            I just find it odd that WF has some server issues, and all of a sudden it needs to start re-enforcing rule #7? lol

                                            To be honest Paul, I do truely appreciate the PM's of warning, however they are still general and not specific. If they were more specific on what product / wso is breaking this rule, then we can fix and make sure it doesn't happen in the future. We are all business people here in the end, and if you want us to fit your mold, we will.

                                            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                            Right now there are 5 - count them 5
                                            threads on the first page of General Discussion about WSO's - LMAO

                                            People don't put enough effort into their WSO's
                                            People make bold claims in their WSO's
                                            The rules should be changed
                                            etc
                                            etc
                                            etc

                                            What I don't get is, do the majority here, only come here to buy products, or better yet, do they ever look at the big picture? lol If you don't like a particular persons products, the claims they make, their avatar, their refund policy, etc - why not just not buy their products?

                                            Why the need to try and force people to fit your mold? Ultimately, each and every one of us gets to decide what we buy, how much we pay for it, and where we buy it.

                                            It's almost like some sort of tunnel vision where people think that Marketing is The WarriorForum and that WSO's are the ONLY place to buy or sell products...live a little folks...seriously.

                                            Selling WSO's is great for extra cash, vacations, hell - I bought a new car CASH after a WSO lol - Allen lied when he said "how this forum can make you 50K a year" - I personally know people that have done 150K+ over a 12 month period - But the level that people get "caught up in it" really baffles my mind as does the levels that some will go to try and control the way other people do business.

                                            I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I think that a pretty big portion of people here have all but given up on actually making money, and come here only for the social interaction, which is fine, but I think it does a disservice to those people, especially newer ones that are here to get a start.

                                            Case in point - How many "donation" threads have there been here on the WF over the past 2 years? Guess what they all have in common...In each and every case, it was for some person that is always preaching to the masses to "have a real business" etc - I guess they didn't take their own advice?

                                            If you want to be in business - then be in business - But, in my opinion, being in business, has little to do with the way the guy down the street does business if that makes any sense...

                                            Make your own way, find out what works for you, and spend as little time as possible buying into the bull**** that some folks will spew, when it is obvious that they aren't taking their own advice...They just like to talk and say things because they "sound good"
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                              LaRocca,
                                              I just find it odd that WF has some server issues, and all of a sudden it needs to start re-enforcing rule #7? lol
                                              One tin foil hat, coming up.

                                              Andy,

                                              How RAP works is a different matter from where people direct the traffic. Leaving commissions active for WSO products, on the idea that some people may go looking for a discount, is fine.

                                              Have I understood the question correctly this time?


                                              Paul
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                                LaRocca,One tin foil hat, coming up.

                                                Andy,

                                                How RAP works is a different matter from where people direct the traffic. Leaving commissions active for WSO products, on the idea that some people may go looking for a discount, is fine.

                                                Have I understood the question correctly this time?


                                                Paul
                                                Ah, that's perfect then. I was under the impression you were saying we couldn't pay affiliate commissions on any WSO sales rather than saying we couldn't direct affiliate traffic to it directly. That's aces.

                                                Cheers,

                                                Andy
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                                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                            What I don't get is, do the majority here, only come here to buy products, or better yet, do they ever look at the big picture?
                                            I think certain aspects of the big picture are being missed.

                                            We have a lot of newbies here whose first product effort is going to be a WSO. And that's as it should be, because those newbies are going to be giving back to the community that not only taught them to create that product, but actually gave them the confidence to even consider it as an option.

                                            But the way the rules stand now, those newbies are not giving back to the community. They're making an offer to the whole world. This is not entirely clear to them, being newbies as they are, and the way we talk about WSOs makes it sound like this is not at all the way it works.

                                            So from a big picture perspective, the newbie creating his first product is making his plans based on a false assumption - that the WSO is only available to Warriors.

                                            On some level, this looks an awful lot like the forum is lying to newbies and taking advantage of them. If these newbies were aware that their WSO was not a special offer only for Warriors, but for anyone and everyone who happened to look at the WSO forum... which is open to the public... they might have made a different plan. And the experienced Warriors know not only that they might have, but that they should have.

                                            Which is why I personally want the written rules on WSOs clarified, including an overt and explicit statement that anyone can buy a WSO and does not have to be a Warrior. I completely support the ability of the admin and mod staff here to make their own rules, I would just like those rules written down so we have some hope in hell of following them - and so we all have the information we need to make good decisions about how the WSO fits into our own personal big picture.

                                            And I think when the admin and staff actually write down all of those rules, and think about what this means to the big picture, they just might say "these rules are not right at all" and make a few changes. I can immediately see three major changes to the rules which would improve the value of a WSO to anyone and everyone who wanted to start one, but there are undoubtedly several more, and some of those might actually be better. So I trust the admin and staff to make the right decision for this forum.
                                            Signature
                                            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Kay,

                          I misread that. I thought you were referring to affiliates promoting products through their own WSO threads. Different issue.

                          Looking at Thomas' response, and considering the "better than available to the general public" condition, I'd read it as a "no." Let them set up external pages and send affiliate traffic there. And don't get caught selling that way to the public at large for the same price.


                          Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Jeremy,

                            This isn't about ethics. It's about policy. And we worry about what other people do when it affects us, which this does.


                            Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              Jeremy,

                              This isn't about ethics. It's about policy. And we worry about what other people do when it affects us, which this does.


                              Paul
                              It affects you how... if someone is selling a system that has made them $500 a day, and they advertise it as such?

                              And, this doesn't affect me in the slightest, because I have NEVER made an income claim in any of my sales copy with regard to how much money I make...But if anyone wants to know, I make $3.99 a day before taxes.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                                Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

                                Deleted due to later post...
                                LOL, did it come yet? That later post?
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                                "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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                              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                Jeremy,

                                First, the majority of people making those claims do not make the amounts stated. If you watch them, you can see the gaps in the stories. They also tend to say, "We guarantee you'll make that much!," which they can't really do even if they're telling the truth.

                                Then there's the fact that big chunks of things are usually not disclosed, like what experience you'd have to have to make the process work, how much money you'd need to budget, etc. That's very common.

                                Add to that the amount of BS those threads create with refund policy changes and the like, and it makes the whole place look scammy.

                                Do you think that affects the group as a whole?


                                Paul
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                                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                  Jeremy,

                                  First, the majority of people making those claims do not make the amounts stated. If you watch them, you can see the gaps in the stories. They also tend to say, "We guarantee you'll make that much!," which they can't really do even if they're telling the truth.

                                  Then there's the fact that big chunks of things are usually not disclosed, like what experience you'd have to have to make the process work, how much money you'd need to budget, etc. That's very common.

                                  Add to that the amount of BS those threads create with refund policy changes and the like, and it makes the whole place look scammy.

                                  Do you think that affects the group as a whole?


                                  Paul
                                  Paul, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the "cleaning up" as you know from our emails this afternoon.

                                  However, if some people here had their way, you wouldn't even be able to market - PERIOD.

                                  You could have a system that made you $100,000 last year, and to satisfy some of these - I don't even know what to call them, your copy would have to read like this.

                                  "Really hard **** that you will probably never be able to do - Hurry up and get it now"

                                  Here is what my system won't do for you:

                                  1. It won't make you any money
                                  2. It's really really hard
                                  3. It requires that you have at least 3 brain cells
                                  4. Setting it up is really boring

                                  And even if it was written like that, you would have some cry baby somewhere say - "that's false advertising, it wasn't really boring, it was really really really boring" - They need to be banned.

                                  On any given day you can find more posts of people complaining about how someone else makes money than you can find posts of people talking about making money.

                                  Can we get a no cry baby zone or something?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                    Paul, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the "cleaning up" as you know from our emails this afternoon.

                                    However, if some people here had their way, you wouldn't even be able to market - PERIOD.

                                    You could have a system that made you $100,000 last year, and to satisfy some of these - I don't even know what to call them, your copy would have to read like this.

                                    "Really hard **** that you will probably never be able to do - Hurry up and get it now"

                                    Here is what my system won't do for you:

                                    1. It won't make you any money
                                    2. It's really really hard
                                    3. It requires that you have at least 3 brain cells
                                    4. Setting it up is really boring

                                    And even if it was written like that, you would have some cry baby somewhere say - "that's false advertising, it wasn't really boring, it was really really really boring" - They need to be banned.

                                    On any given day you can find more posts of people complaining about how someone else makes money than you can find posts of people talking about making money.

                                    Can we get a no cry baby zone or something?

                                    Jeremy, here's the way I look at it. Whatever changes are made, they're
                                    going to be enforced evenly across the board. That means nobody gets
                                    special treatment. So if it's a level playing field, all it does is it forces us
                                    to think of smarter ways to market.

                                    Truth is, if the only way you can sell something is to say "You can make
                                    $X doing this" then you have a problem.

                                    Take a look at some of the really great sales copy that's been written.
                                    Hell, take a look at Paul Myers' copy. That stuff's compelling as hell and
                                    I don't think I've ever seen a sales page he's put up that says "You can
                                    make $X with this."

                                    In fact, I think a lot of people here should head on over the the copywriting
                                    forum and learn how to write a sales letter.

                                    There is more than one way to skin a cat and if you can't do it other
                                    than to flash $$$ signs in prospects' eyeballs then maybe you need to
                                    reevaluate your copywriting skills.

                                    Bottom line is simple though. Whatever changes are made, it's out of our
                                    hands. We've got 2 choices.

                                    1. Comply with the new regulation of WSOs.

                                    2. Don't run them anymore.

                                    Simple enough to me.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                    your copy would have to read like this.

                                    "Really hard **** that you will probably never be able to do - Hurry up and get it now"

                                    Now, Jeremy, you've been in this game long enough to know better than that.

                                    Have you split-tested this copy?

                                    I mean, it may actually convert like a mofo. Those people just might be the most brillant people on the planet.
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                                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Profit-smart
                                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                                    Paul, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with the "cleaning up" as you know from our emails this afternoon.

                                    However, if some people here had their way, you wouldn't even be able to market - PERIOD.

                                    You could have a system that made you $100,000 last year, and to satisfy some of these - I don't even know what to call them, your copy would have to read like this.

                                    "Really hard **** that you will probably never be able to do - Hurry up and get it now"

                                    Here is what my system won't do for you:

                                    1. It won't make you any money
                                    2. It's really really hard
                                    3. It requires that you have at least 3 brain cells
                                    4. Setting it up is really boring

                                    And even if it was written like that, you would have some cry baby somewhere say - "that's false advertising, it wasn't really boring, it was really really really boring" - They need to be banned.

                                    On any given day you can find more posts of people complaining about how someone else makes money than you can find posts of people talking about making money.

                                    Can we get a no cry baby zone or something?

                                    Jeremy, Thats basically how my WSO is setup; And we've sold over 700 copies.

                                    If your product delivers, what it says it delivers; Then your customers do the selling for you.
                                    (Not that you dont make some valid points; It's not like I market CPA offers the same way)
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                                      Originally Posted by Profit-smart View Post

                                      Jeremy, Thats basically how my WSO is setup; And we've sold over 700 copies.

                                      If your product delivers, what it says it delivers; Then your customers do the selling for you.
                                      (Not that you dont make some valid points; It's not like I market CPA offers the same way)
                                      And the fact that you have sold 700 copies would probably still give some people reason to whine and moan about it, simply because you had a successful product.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Kay,Nope. If they're doing that, point them out to me. Allen has been quite clear on that.


                        Paul
                        Has Allen explained why at any point? I'd have thought people affiliate promoting WSOs would be good for the forum since it'd bring new people in but Allen is way smarter than I am

                        Cheers,

                        Andy
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                          Has Allen explained why at any point?
                          Because it's not an ad forum. You can use the classifieds for that.

                          One of the things that sets any forum apart from others is the culture it develops. Community is more than shared interests. It also involves shared experiences and values.

                          Maintaining that is part of why this place has so many members who take it seriously and continue to participate.


                          Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Because it's not an ad forum. You can use the classifieds for that.

                            One of the things that sets any forum apart from others is the culture it develops. Community is more than shared interests. It also involves shared experiences and values.

                            Maintaining that is part of why this place has so many members who take it seriously and continue to participate.


                            Paul
                            Thank you.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Because it's not an ad forum. You can use the classifieds for that.

                            One of the things that sets any forum apart from others is the culture it develops. Community is more than shared interests. It also involves shared experiences and values.

                            Maintaining that is part of why this place has so many members who take it seriously and continue to participate.


                            Paul
                            Hi Paul (or anyone else that wants to suggest),

                            I've slept on this one and realised where my "problem" with this is. I've only run a couple of WSOs but I've also allowed affiliates to promote the main salespage with the guarantee that if that prospect finds the WSO and pays the cheaper price they are still getting the same commission percentage (just of a lower amount).

                            So I'm now left feeling that I either need to break the rules here or let my affiliates down and neither of those seems like a good outcome.

                            All thoughts and suggestions welcomed,

                            Andy
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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Andy,

                              Maybe don't tell your affiliates that it's an option? Or just explain that the policy has been clarified?

                              If they need the discount, maybe they're not that serious?


                              Paul
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                              • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                Andy,

                                Maybe don't tell your affiliates that it's an option?
                                I'm sorry. I don't consider that an option. I like to be completely upfront about how my products are marketed and the effects it can have on an affiliate's commissions.

                                Or just explain that the policy has been clarified?

                                If they need the discount, maybe they're not that serious?
                                I don't really understand that second bit. Could you explain please? My affiliates aren't getting the discount, my customers are.

                                Cheers,

                                Andy
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                                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                  Andy,
                                  I don't really understand that second bit. Could you explain please? My affiliates aren't getting the discount, my customers are.
                                  Right. And if your affiliates aren't comfortable with the discounted price....

                                  But this isn't a "Buy my stuff" forum, as Allen says. If it's a problem, don't do WSOs.


                                  Paul
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                    Andy,Right. And if your affiliates aren't comfortable with the discounted price....

                                    But this isn't a "Buy my stuff" forum, as Allen says. If it's a problem, don't do WSOs.


                                    Paul
                                    Hi Paul,

                                    My affiliates aren't bothered by the discounted price. They are bothered by not getting a commission on it if they made the original referral.

                                    In fact, since I use RAP I have an additional problem. If an affiliate sends a customer to my main sales page they get cookied. If that customer then buys through my WSO I can't help but pay out the commission. That's just how the software works.

                                    Sorry to belabour this one. You must have a million things to sort out at the moment. If I can do anything to help in exchange for the clarification please let me know.

                                    Andy

                                    Edit to add: Btw, sorry for misreading what you wrote before. I thought you meant I shouldn't tell my affiliates I was running I WSO. I realise now you meant tell them getting a commission off it isn't an option, which makes more sense
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                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Michael,Have I told you today that you're a smartass?


                    Paul

                    Glad someone is figuring that out about me!



                    Seriously though, I applaud the effort to cleanse the WSO forum.
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                • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                  Who? Like... do they have a band page on MySpace or something?









                  j/k
                  What ever happened to MySpace? (lol....I haven't visited that site in ages....seems like Facebook is the new MySpace....)
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Different people, dude. These are the black-hat types we're talking about. More like the Weathermen than hippies.
                I lump them both together, personally.

                You have the whinging emo kids who complain incessantly about how the rules are unfair, and then you have the rebellious punk kids who break the rules at every turn and justify it by insisting that the rules are unfair anyway.

                Both groups are railing against "the system," both groups are doing it because they don't understand how the system can work for them, and both groups are basically just a bunch of spoiled children.

                There's a time and a place for whinging, and there's a time and a place for rebellion - I've done plenty of both in the past year, myself - but the system can and does work if you pull your damn head out and start asking "how can I" instead of just saying "I can't." The problem is not and has never been in the system. It's invariably the person using the system (or refusing to use it, as the case may be) who has the problem.
                Signature
                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author JAIDEEP2959
          Newbies do fall for hype and big claims.

          I have seen some senior members of Forum Digitalpoint laughing at WSO section claiming that it is for dreamers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Paul,

    I understand your condo, located in Area 51, is up for lease at the present time. I will market it for you in the WSO section, for the small fee of only $1000.00 per day, with a kick back to you of $7.00 per month.

    HEADLINE:

    How To Make $499.00 A Day With No Computer, Website, Content Writing, CPA,
    Backlinks, etc ...
    All You Need Is The Condo From Paul Myers
    Proven System For Making $499.00 Daily

    Yours For Only $499.00 A Day

    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Ken/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.jpg[/IMG]
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Wagoner
    Not tasked. Volunteered.
    Paul,

    I'd buy you a beer, but I think you've had enough!

    I salute you for taking the reins on this one, but I think you'll need a bulldozer.

    Really... Thank You!

    Dennis Wagoner
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by paulbarrs View Post

      Paul,

      I wonder if it would be worthwhile considering limiting those who can post WSO's to those who have either 1/ Been a member of Warrior Forum for minimum period of time (6 months or more), or 2/ Those who have contributed at least a certain number of posts (500 + for example).

      Perhaps 3/ All of the above.

      I know this would be harsh and I wouldn't begin to suggest the 'set limitations', but many of the 'way-out-there' posts that I've often looked at (though not all) were from people who'd only been in the forum a short period of time, made less than 100 posts and had no website apparent details etc in their profile.

      Don't know about others, but I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole!

      Just a thought... to add to that already long list.

      - Paul Barrs
      I had just a read a post, in a different thread (would have to go find it) that gave basically a historical context to WSOs, and what they were meant to be used for. I have no reason to believe that what that poster had written was inaccurate....they basically said that WSOs were a means for Warriors to give other members really good deals....

      That poster had made WSOs sound they have always traditionally had a very strong community aspect to them. In that sense, I agree with what you have proposed Paul....

      Maybe...perhaps....although it might rub some people the wrong way (like you had said), a consideration may be to have those who post WSOs be ONLY those who have a minimal time requirement as a member, with a certain designation of posts....

      Anyone could elevate their own posts rather quickly....whether they pay others to do so....or just write one-lines, so, a time-requirement may not be such a bad idea, either....

      I think this may at least help a bit with ensuring quality and the best interest of the community in any 'special offers'. It's hard not to question the motives of someone who purchases a War Room membership then, soon after, begins a WSO....

      Of course...I could be way off....I tend to agree with what you wrote though, Paul....just my thoughts....
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      • Profile picture of the author MJ Sterling
        I agree with removing WSOs that encourage customers to practise illegal techniques or ones that break the ToS of other sites.

        Beyond that I think each WSO should be looked on case-by-case, specifically looking that feedback left from Warriors who have purchased. That is the best way (in my experience) to discover if a WSO is scammy or if people are gaining value from it.

        Remember, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          MJ,
          Beyond that I think each WSO should be looked on case-by-case, specifically looking that feedback left from Warriors who have purchased. That is the best way (in my experience) to discover if a WSO is scammy or if people are gaining value from it.
          No. It's not.

          Shilling is extremely common, in this and every other forum-based marketplace. Feedback means nothing unless you can verify the identity of the person leaving it and know what their standards are like. The people here with standards don't mess with most of this stuff.


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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Originally Posted by MJ Sterling View Post

          I agree with removing WSOs that encourage customers to practise illegal techniques or ones that break the ToS of other sites.

          Beyond that I think each WSO should be looked on case-by-case, specifically looking that feedback left from Warriors who have purchased. That is the best way (in my experience) to discover if a WSO is scammy or if people are gaining value from it.

          Remember, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
          I really agree with this....

          Considering the deep-founded "community" aspect of WSOs, I don't think it's unreasonable for those approving WSOs to REALLY look at the feedback left by other fellow Warriors.

          Not sure how this would work...but, perhaps some type of feedback should be received PRIOR to posting the WSO, and including in the thread for approval?

          I know this could just end up being every new WSO runner hopeful randomly contacting (spamming?) other Warriors repetitively....

          On the other hand, it would give a little insight to those who approve prior to their approval...
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Considering the deep-founded "community" aspect of WSOs, I don't think it's unreasonable for those approving WSOs to REALLY look at the feedback left by other fellow Warriors.
            And when the more established members get tired of getting spammed, or the new folks start yelling that it's an "old boys' club," because they can't get established people to review their products?

            Nope. Won't work. And it would, again, start to make it look like things were WF Approved prior to posting. That's dangerous. Gets too much into the forum taking responsibility for the members' judgement.


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            • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              And when the more established members get tired of getting spammed, or the new folks start yelling that it's an "old boys' club," because they can't get established people to review their products?

              Nope. Won't work. And it would, again, start to make it look like things were WF Approved prior to posting. That's dangerous. Gets too much into the forum taking responsibility for the members' judgement.


              Paul
              Completely understood.

              In my ramblings in my previous post, I guess I did see this as being an issue.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                In my ramblings in my previous post, I guess I did see this as being an issue.
                Until you've been on this side of the mod table, you wouldn't. These people can be real pains in the collective arse.


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    • Profile picture of the author BeenThereDoneThat
      The minimum posts is a good idea, but might contribute to lots of trash posts in order to get to 500. Time at the forum would work
      the best because it can't be rushed. Most of the really bad WSOs
      I've bought were from people with low post counts and a short membership here as well. I've been pretty adamant about getting my refunds if the WSO doesn't live up to the sales page, it's not the money, it's the principle.
      Stef

      Originally Posted by paulbarrs View Post

      Paul,

      I wonder if it would be worthwhile considering limiting those who can post WSO's to those who have either 1/ Been a member of Warrior Forum for minimum period of time (6 months or more), or 2/ Those who have contributed at least a certain number of posts (500 + for example).

      Perhaps 3/ All of the above.

      I know this would be harsh and I wouldn't begin to suggest the 'set limitations', but many of the 'way-out-there' posts that I've often looked at (though not all) were from people who'd only been in the forum a short period of time, made less than 100 posts and had no website apparent details etc in their profile.

      Don't know about others, but I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole!

      Just a thought... to add to that already long list.

      - Paul Barrs
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  • Profile picture of the author Anthony La Rocca
    Hey,

    If the Warrior Forum wants to cleanup house, that's cool with me! However, this should be fair and apply to ALL Warriors with zero favoritism. If your Ad-copy is making income earning claims or general claims, then they should all be moderated approved before submitted.

    That being said, I feel that the WSO fee should be increased immensely to not only pay for proper staff to approve the WSO's, but to enforce that the author has the $ to invest in advertising their Special Offer. This will ensure the WSO area isn't constantly flooded with that "scammy" vibe and instill a trusting user-base that when they click the "Buy Now" button for a WSO, they know they are purchasing a quality product.... that follows the rules in a valuable manner.

    Profit-Smart put it best....."If your product delivers, what it says it delivers; Then your customers do the selling for you".
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      LaRocca,
      If the Warrior Forum wants to cleanup house, that's cool with me! However, this should be fair and apply to ALL Warriors with zero favoritism.
      If you can find any evidence of favoritism in how I'm applying the rules, feel free to point it out. Publicly.

      As far as raising the pricing... I'm not sure that would make any difference at all.
      and instill a trusting user-base that when they click the "Buy Now" button for a WSO, they know they are purchasing a quality product.... that follows the rules in a valuable manner.
      I definitely do not think it's a good idea to get to the point where it looks like anything there is WF approved. That would require extremely experienced people to spend full time reviewing every offer. There aren't any of us that know every area of the business well enough to get that right every time. And those of us with enough experience to do it at all would be losing money compared to other things we could do with that time.

      Paul,

      I'd love that set of standards. Not likely to happen, but I'd love them. I'm not sure they'd make a difference, though.


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  • Profile picture of the author Wham
    If it promises big results for a low price, it mostly likely sucks. I've read a lot of WSO's, and almost all of them were rehashed information you find for free right here and on other forums. WSO's can be helpful for a complete beginner because it's all the information in one place with a step by step plan making it easy to follow, but for anyone whose spent some time reading the forums they are usually a waste of money.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Wham View Post

      If it promises big results for a low price, it mostly likely sucks. I've read a lot of WSO's, and almost all of them were rehashed information you find for free right here and on other forums. WSO's can be helpful for a complete beginner because it's all the information in one place with a step by step plan making it easy to follow, but for anyone whose spent some time reading the forums they are usually a waste of money.
      No offence to anyone here, but if I REALLY had a method (I wish I did...) that earned as much as some of those WSOs claim, in a day, there's not a chance in the world I'd be selling it for $7.....

      Maybe a $2,000 price tag with a $1,500 or so WSO price tag.....
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Wham View Post

      I've read a lot of WSO's, and almost all of them were rehashed information you find for free right here and on other forums.
      I've read a lot of books, and almost all of them were rehashed information you find for free on the internet and in public libraries.

      I guess they're okay for newbies, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author RainMakerRyan
    Marketing Geniuses, NO! Allota Hype, Yes!

    Lets face it! If the warriors who launch WSO's promising 10,000/Day were really doing it, I doubt theyd be hanging around the Warrior Special Offers Section selling thier secrets for a measly 7, 17, or even 27 bucks.

    They would be too busy doing seminars and focusing on where their money is really coming from.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Mcalorum
    The title of your WSO, besides the actual sales copy and product,
    is the most important thing.

    You need to pick a throught grabbing headline.

    Thats what will get you the traffic more than the next guy.

    So in my opinion, its pure genius.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave d
    My view,

    In some ways I believe the WSO section to be a victim of its own success. You get guranteed laser targeted traffic along with a baying hungry mob. This will inevtibaly attract undesirables who will believe that all they have to do is get the sales copy right and their laughing all the way to the bank regardless of what their selling.

    Yes there does need to be control and policing of the WSO section but at what cost. We cannot reasonably expect mods to scrutinise the content of every offer because as Jeremey I believe pointed out the potential income claims on some may be factual.

    This then brings us to bringing WSO's into line with current rules and regulations ie FTC. If you are making outlandish guarantees and there is a string of people who cannot get refunds then you should be brought into check, likewise as Paul mentioned with offers or software that violate TOS of other sites, once we start at this basic level then this should begin to remove at least some of the rogue elements.

    Now my most important point. I think the biggest onus falls on the buyer to apply common sense, due dilligence as well as some sort of restraint, because as you may or may not know there are bad people out there who may want to take your money and run.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I think the biggest onus falls on the buyer to apply common sense, due dilligence as well as some sort of restraint, because as you may or may not know there are bad people out there who may want to take your money and run.
      Dave D, FTW!
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Gosh, do I hear some whining?

        Ok, if you are looking for a great affiliate program, I am overwhelmed right now with my Whoop A$$ product.

        Giant cans of Whoop A$$ are flying off the shelf. It appears a marketer by the name of Paul Myers is going through this stuff like there's no tomorrow.

        I'm getting low on stock, but going out to scrounge up some more today as it seems this guy Paul has an insatiable appetite for the stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave d
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Dave D, FTW!
        Sorry Paul I must be having a blonde moment. WTF does FTW mean, I have Googled it and the best I have come up with is F*%k The World or Free The Whales :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        I think the biggest onus falls on the buyer to apply common sense, due dilligence as well as some sort of restraint, because as you may or may not know there are bad people out there who may want to take your money and run.
        Dave D, FTW!
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Dave D, FTW!
        Unless of course, proxies or backlinks are involved. Then the buyer just isn't capable of applying their own due diligence.
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  • Profile picture of the author [E.To..The..Y]
    I think that in the end, its the buyer's responsibility. The buyer could have easily checked:

    -reviews
    -refunds
    -complaints
    -more information (or lack of )
    -seller's history on WF

    All that with just a few mouse scrolls and clicks. Alright, you might argue newbies wouldn't know better. Recall when YOU WERE A NEWBIE. Imagine that the WSO Forum suddenly was revamped in such a way that you could tell which wso was for newbie and which was for advanced members. You would think that newbies would go for newbie products but think again. If you were a little kid and I offered you a choice of a candy stick and a candy store. Which one would you go for?

    Besides, if you aren't sure about that WSO but you want it that badly...just wait it out until there're reviews. There are always reviews for GOOD WSOs. It's a fact. If there're no reviews and you are still tempted..well, move along and actually do something. There isn't only one way to make money online.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    FTW = For the win!
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Its pretty simple to make a forum invisible unless your logged in, so wouldnt be difficult to make it warrior only accessible
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Caliban,

      The instant we try to write down "all" the rules, we create a whole new class of cretin: The list-lawyer. It is not possible to foresee every situation, and the more you try, the more problems you generate.

      Eventually, you end up with something as opaque as most contracts, and even LegalMan can't translate it dependably.

      Life is a mix of soft ambiguity and hard edges. Any attempt to change that only serves to further emphasize it.


      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Its pretty simple to make a forum invisible unless your logged in, so wouldnt be difficult to make it warrior only accessible
      (DISCLAIMER: It's hard to be helpful about rules and regulations, without sounding like you're trying to tell people how to keep their own house. That's not my intent. If my suggestions and ideas are helpful, great. If they're not, that's okay too. I'm not trying to rant and rave and start a movement or anything. After all, if I feel that strongly about this, I can go start my own damn forum - right? )

      That's one of the changes I've been thinking about. But I'd prefer we remove only the ability to click links, so those who want to browse WSOs anonymously (= most of the big names, from my experience) can continue to do so, and those who use Google bookmarks to find WSOs can continue to do so. Works better from a "big picture" perspective.

      On the other hand, a lot of people might say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and come down on the side of just adding a "Rule 0" that says "Your WSO can be seen and purchased by anyone, not just Warriors" so people have the information and can make a more informed decision. And I support that, too.

      A third option - and, honestly, the one I most prefer - is simply removing any requirement for the WSO price to have any particular position in the grand scheme of things. Let people price their WSOs however they want. If they want to come in here and tell Warriors "buy my product at double the usual price," let them. The smart Warriors will check for a better deal, as they should, and - out of concern and camaraderie - tell their fellow Warriors all about that better deal. We don't need this rule, because the community will enforce it to their own standards without staff involvement. Which means as those standards evolve, so too will the enforcement.

      But I'm not in charge, and there could be any number of Very Good Reasons not to do these things which only the admin and staff here know. And they don't have to tell me (or, indeed, anybody) if they don't want to. In fact, they can refuse to change the rules simply because they don't want to, and they don't owe me or anyone else an explanation.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        A third option - and, honestly, the one I most prefer - is simply removing any requirement for the WSO price to have any particular position in the grand scheme of things. Let people price their WSOs however they want.
        That's what the classified section is for, among other things. And Warriors for Hire.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author David McKee
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        (A third option - and, honestly, the one I most prefer - is simply removing any requirement for the WSO price to have any particular position in the grand scheme of things. Let people price their WSOs however they want. If they want to come in here and tell Warriors "buy my product at double the usual price," let them. The smart Warriors will check for a better deal, as they should, and - out of concern and camaraderie - tell their fellow Warriors all about that better deal. We don't need this rule, because the community will enforce it to their own standards without staff involvement. Which means as those standards evolve, so too will the enforcement.
        Wow... that sound like Capitalism, you know, "The Invisible Hand" of Commerce at work. Less regulation instead of more. Self Policing and all.

        I like it!

        -DTM
        III
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          David,
          Wow... that sound like Capitalism, you know, "The Invisible Hand" of Commerce at work. Less regulation instead of more. Self Policing and all.
          The fundamental assumptions of capitalism include respect for the persons and property of others.

          We are policing ourselves, by the way. The owner of this particular establishment is choosing who and what he deals with, a right that is also fundamental to proper capitalism.

          People are free to choose other markets, or do without. Again...

          Yeah. I kind of think we have an idea what capitalism entails. I'm not entirely sure based on that comment if you do or not.


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  • Profile picture of the author Joey Kas
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Joey Kas View Post

      Is it ethical to write an article based on forum posts? I mean, this is the internet and all.
      I don't know what you mean by "based on," but using content from the forum in general is addressed in the rules you agreed to when you signed up:

      You are not authorized to use any content on the Warrior Forum outside of the Warrior Forum except where explicitly authorized. For example, forum posts are not to be copied or used outside of the Warrior Forum.
      (Above excerpt from WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums - Forum Rules)
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

        I don't know what you mean by "based on," but using content from the forum in general is addressed in the rules you agreed to when you signed up:



        (Above excerpt from WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums - Forum Rules)
        You might however contact the person who may have made a post and ask their permission to quote them or reference them. When in doubt, submit a ticket to the help desk.
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        • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
          Originally Posted by avenuegirl View Post

          You might however contact the person who may have made a post and ask their permission to quote them or reference them.
          Exactly.

          (Looking forward to the "thanks" button coming back -- seems like I want to use it even more now just because it's gone. )
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  • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
    Banned
    I have a better idea?

    Shut down the WSO Forum for 1 month and let's see if people are going to bitch, cry, whinge etc.

    I would support this 100%

    P.S Then notice the people who "rely on WSO" Income find other ways to make easy money..
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

    ....I really think I stumbled on a question here that could spur some serious debate.....

    Unless I purchase a certain WSO, there's no way that I can tell if the product provides the information and support required to achieve the results that any WSO-runner claims....so, I am not pin-pointing any one particular WSO. I've been around here for a bit, and have seen some immensely popular WSOs, and, then, some that just fall by the wayside for one reason or another (bad sales copy? a bad offer? etc....)

    It does 'seem' like some of the most successful WSOs are the ones that include something along the lines of "How I earn $10,000+/day...and how you can too...."....and these type of WSOs usually promise to reveal all their secrets for a mere $7....

    Are these types of WSO's marketing genius? or do they create unfair competition for WSOs that don't make quite the same claims?....Let's face it, for a newbie visiting the WSO forum, who is contemplating posting a WSO, it REALLY can be a bit intimidating....and, if your methods and strategies, revealed in your product, would "only" bring someone in $500/month, those WSOs appear like they would be dead in the water against WSOs with headlines like "$10,000 in a day...."

    What do YOU think? Marketing Genius? or Unfair Competition? Have you had experience on either end of this debate?...
    Ummm...what is unfair about it? If my swing technique can add 100 yards to your drive, is it unfair if the next guy's technique only adds 25 yards? Uh...no, it isn't.

    Lying, on the other hand, is a different issue. Unfortunately, lying is perfectly acceptable for WSOs.....just don't mention proxy or back link though, lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      Ummm...what is unfair about it? If my swing technique can add 100 yards to your drive, is it unfair if the next guy's technique only adds 25 yards? Uh...no, it isn't.

      Lying, on the other hand, is a different issue. Unfortunately, lying is perfectly acceptable for WSOs.....just don't mention proxy or back link though, lol.
      Yeah, lying is the issue. Unfortunately, where there is money to made, they'll always be lying...even to the extent of making false claims and posting false/doctored earnings....
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      • Profile picture of the author dyadvisor
        Jeremy: I will shed no tears no you. In the email you sent me (as a customer), you badmouthed the Forum.

        Then for the whole page of your selling blog you whine on and on about all the other whiners.

        When I look at comments, you tore apart the person who told you, who are you to throw stones. In an idiotic, unbusiness like manner, you blasted, and blasted at him. (Showing a deep inferiority complex). You can dish it out, but cannot take it.

        Then you probably had a few fake posters, help you cry about the other moaner and groaners.

        At that point, I thought, let me see for myself if this is a business person or a product peddler. You went hog wild telling me to F* off and much worse.
        At the end you said you did not need my F* business.

        Well it looks, like Paul does not need it, many of the members, and myself.

        Then you questioned my income making ability, not privately, but in your mass distributed blog.

        I would invite most people in jeans to my estate, but in your case I do not think my 10mm could resist. You are what is causing the problem with your CPA and other schemes.

        Goodbye and good riddance. That God and Allah, Paul has faced the very hard task in front of him as tactically as he could.

        To answer the original post. With the combined PR and Alexa factors, your headline is getting blasted all over the internet. Including the FTC, who fines 11,200 for calling someone on the do not call list.

        I am sure Paul faces even harder decisions. Be glad he is not lowering the boom faster. Asking for well defined honesty is not too much.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          Jeremy: I will shed no tears no you
          .
          .
          .
          Edited out.
          .
          .
          .

          Regardless of what Jeremy said or didn't say in an email to you, please
          read rule number 1 of this forum.

          If you have a problem with another member, marketer or God, take it up
          with them elsewhere...not here.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          Jeremy: I will shed no tears no you. In the email you sent me (as a customer), you badmouthed the Forum.
          I NEVER bad mouthed the forum - I simply said that they would not allow me to sell the product here...comprehension...learn it...On my blog, I said the forum is a great resource and I'm glad that they are cleaning it up, but that some of the people were a pain in the back side...again...comprehension...learn it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I NEVER bad mouthed the forum - I simply said that they would not allow me to sell the product here...comprehension...learn it...On my blog, I said the forum is a great resource and I'm glad that they are cleaning it up, but that some of the people were a pain in the back side...again...comprehension...learn it.
            Jeremy...

            Just let it go dude and move on. I know you and me never look eye to eye...but I have been
            reading the posts on here and all everyone is talking about today is the WSO Section and the
            new "rules"...wtf? Its Friday, go out, have fun!

            Life is too short to worry about things like this.

            We all have a business to run - it would not help anyone with you constantly
            trying to justify yourself
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        • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          With the combined PR and Alexa factors, your headline is getting blasted all over the internet. Including the FTC, who fines 11,200 for calling someone on the do not call list.
          lol, what?

          ...

          99% of people on this forum saying "my headline needs to be FTC compliant" haven't read the updated FTC guidelines and blindly follow the general impression given by the forum.

          Anyone who even, just for a moment, thinks the FTC is coming after YOUR WSO needs to get their head checked. End of story.

          Personally I have no problem seeing income claims made. You need to always take it with a grain of salt. That should be a given and if not it'll be learned with time. Claims of future income or claims saying the consumer will earn x income is a gray-area for me.

          ...But in the end it's not MY place to judge or criticize. Overall the new rules for the forum are actually much needed and seem like a positive step forward in my opinion.

          The only thing that bugs me is that everyone talking about the FTC coming after their WSO. Give me a break. Try talking to at least a few lawyers and see what they have to say.

          At best you'll be warned that you need to take down your WSO by the FTC. If you don't then you MAY be fined. I'd bet a small fortune however that no one on this forum will ever get a notice from the FTC.

          Taking to heart legal advice, on any forum, is like asking me questions about how cars operate.

          I can talk all day about it. But in the end it'll be totally wrong.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          When I look at comments, you tore apart the person who told you, who are you to throw stones. In an idiotic, unbusiness like manner, you blasted, and blasted at him. (Showing a deep inferiority complex). You can dish it out, but cannot take it.
          it's MY blog...I can say whatever I want. If I couldn't take it, I would not have published the comments. Truth be told, I don't really care if you like me. I'm not here to try and impress you, or force you to be a friend or a customer.

          Trust me when I tell you that YOU are not someone that I wish to associate with either personally, or professionally.

          You've already accused me of "spamming" you when in fact, you double opted in via our blog, and purchased a service of ours. So, if anyone is misguided or mistaken here, It's you.

          Then you probably had a few fake posters, help you cry about the other moaner and groaners.

          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          At that point, I thought, let me see for myself if this is a business person or a product peddler. You went hog wild telling me to F* off and much worse.
          At the end you said you did not need my F* business.
          That isn't true either, and you know it. Unless you were one of the two cowards who posted negative, insult filled comments on my blog, then you are lying....plain and simple.


          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          Then you questioned my income making ability, not privately, but in your mass distributed blog.
          Prove it....I just looked at my blog again, and could find no comments about questioning anyones earning potential.

          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          I would invite most people in jeans to my estate, but in your case I do not think my 10mm could resist. You are what is causing the problem with your CPA and other schemes.
          errr...none of my CPA poducts are black-hat - Fail again, dude....

          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          Goodbye and good riddance.
          Thanks for the $45?


          Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

          I am sure Paul faces even harder decisions. Be glad he is not lowering the boom faster. Asking for well defined honesty is not too much.
          So...why don't you try being honest? So far, you have lied probably 4 or 5 times in this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author dyadvisor
    Jeremy: Learn some etiquitte. You earn a customer's trust not burn it. I will give you a hint. I never opted-in, you spammed me from the forum. I am not going to sing "Moon River", as you know it very well. The Forum will live on, will your BS spam forum?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

      Jeremy: Learn some etiquitte. You earn a customer's trust not burn it. I will give you a hint. I never opted-in, you spammed me from the forum. I am not going to sing "Moon River", as you know it very well. The Forum will live on, will your BS spam forum?

      A couple things....

      1. I don't have a forum

      2. If you got an email from me - it was from aweber...double opt-in

      3. After what you have posted here, I don't want your trust, OR to have you as a customer

      4. You ordered our backlink service...CAN ANYONE SAY HYPOCRITE?

      This is the exact email I sent - links removed:

      Hello Everyone,

      You are receiving this email because you joined our list through some
      sort of interaction on the Warrior Forum - whether you signed up for
      a freebie, or joined our list for updates etc...This list is comprised
      mostly of "warriors"...

      Recently, we were told that we can no longer offer our Backlink service
      on the Warrior Forum due to a change in the rules. We weren't the only
      ones either - I'd venture to say that probably 50 or 100 people got
      the same message.

      Well, there are 2 ways that we can handle this.

      1. We can tuck out tales between our legs like most of the others will

      2. We can have a sale

      I think we will go with option #2

      Regardless of what happens, if you are on this list, you will still
      get access to the special pricing that was offered exclusively on the
      WSO...

      BUT

      From now until Sunday night, we are offering a BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SALE..

      So, that means, if you grab 2 of the 2K link packs - You get an extra
      2K for free...This deal can't be beat!

      In the original thread, there have already been numerous people reporting
      huge gains in the search engines, and that isn't a fluke. We've personally
      been using these links for quite a while, and they play a large part
      in the rankings we achieve.

      So, if you need links (who doesn't?)

      Go here:

      *link removed*

      If you order 2 packages, you can either put in the instructions to put
      the extra links into one of the original packages or you can fill out the
      submission form again for a completely different site, and then we
      will take care of the rest.

      Remember, this sale is only good until Sunday night at the latest, and
      we might pull it earlier depending on how many orders come in to make
      sure that we can still meet our advertised turn around time.

      Don and Jeremy


      Now, I would appreciate it if YOU can point out to me exactly where I bashed the warriorforum...

      *******edit********

      I spammed you?

      Here's your opt-in info - Kindly let everyone know that you made a mistake now

      ## This is a confirmation message from your AWeber
      ## account unit name "don-jeremy". The person below was added
      ## to your leads list and emailed message none.

      FORM DATA:
      meta_web_form_id: 1566544725

      meta_split_id:

      listname: don-jeremy

      redirect: http://www.donandjeremy.com/thanks.php

      meta_redirect_onlist: http://www.donandjeremy.com/already.php

      meta_adtracking: blog_form

      meta_message: 1

      meta_required: name,email

      meta_forward_vars:

      meta_tooltip:

      name: Donald Yerke

      email: dyadvisor@ REMOVEDBYJEREMY
      submit: Submit


      Location: http://www.donandjeremy.com/webform.html
      Sent By: IP REMOVED
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

      Jeremy: Learn some etiquitte. You earn a customer's trust not burn it. I will give you a hint. I never opted-in, you spammed me from the forum. I am not going to sing "Moon River", as you know it very well. The Forum will live on, will your BS spam forum?
      Look up spam. The definition doesn't have anything to do with double optin lists and it's obvious that you opted in. Also, as it was mentioned, if you have a problem as a customer with someone, it's between you and them ... not you and US .... and that's Rule #1, not Rule #7.
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  • Profile picture of the author dyadvisor
    Steve, you are 100% right, but sometimes somebody needs a taste of their own medicine. My apologies to everyone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Jeremy,

    this is not an attack but I do distinctly remember purchasing one of your WSO's which teaches how to violate the ToS of Ezine Articles.


    Chris
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by skyfox7 View Post

      Jeremy,

      this is not an attack but I do distinctly remember purchasing one of your WSO's which teaches how to violate the ToS of Ezine Articles.


      Chris
      Well, I"ve admitted that probably 100 times

      I bought a guide from a well respected marketer that told me to open an account at hubpages for each niche I was involved in...that is against their TOS...

      burn em at the stake? lol

      The title to the thread you bought it from said "black-hat article marketer wants to reveal his secrets" - so the fact that the guide violated even a small TOS, shouldn't have been surprising

      Some high flying folks on this forum recommended an article distribution service that I bought through their affiliate link...It just so happens that such services violate the TOS of just about every video site they submit to...

      See where I'm going with this?
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      • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
        See where I'm going with this?
        Yup ... there's a lot of hypocrits bitching about link spam and article spinner/content - while they violate adsense and adwords and most other types of TOS. And yeah - Ive seen some you "quality content" advocates blogs. Newsflash ... a lot of your write for **** - you'd be better of spinning stuff

        There's a hella WSO's NOT about backlinks - that don't make money claims - that are violating a TOS.

        How many autobloggers softwares/ebooks/ideas - that scrape article directories, and pull rss feeds - AND that search and replace the sources links - that are being sold? Violates the feedburner and sources RSS syndication TOS all the live long DAY.

        Something just struck me ... these new enforcements apply to WSO and selling - not just the mere discussion of such tools and tactics in other warrior forum sections - right?

        Rule #7 is a rule for wso's as I understand it
        Signature
        Rank Ascend Network - High PR Links / Guaranteed Rankings Increase
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        Well, I"ve admitted that probably 100 times

        I bought a guide from a well respected marketer that told me to open an account at hubpages for each niche I was involved in...that is against their TOS...

        burn em at the stake? lol

        The title to the thread you bought it from said "black-hat article marketer wants to reveal his secrets" - so the fact that the guide violated even a small TOS, shouldn't have been surprising

        Some high flying folks on this forum recommended an article distribution service that I bought through their affiliate link...It just so happens that such services violate the TOS of just about every video site they submit to...

        See where I'm going with this?
        Do these people KNOW their methods/products violate the TOS of other sites?

        ......again, maybe I'm naive....but, websites, like HubPages, have TOS that are as clear as day....

        You either live by them, or you don't.

        Not sure I would feel "right" promoting anything, especially to buying customers, that clearly violate TOS or a respective site....geeze....I would hate to sell someone a product that, when the methods are applied, result in their account being deleted or banned...

        Seems like grounds for a refund.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          dyadvisor,

          What anyone says about us on their blog or forum isn't generally a topic for discussion here, unless it involves direct action in this place. What Jeremy said in that email doesn't sound like blasting us (it's the truth, after all), but even if he were... so what?

          I think as highly of this place as anyone, but that does not stop me from expressing my opinions about its flaws when I think it's appropriate. Every site has them, and the bigger the site, the more flaws. I just have the good fortune to be in a position to do something about them on occasion.

          Calling someone a spammer for email they sent to a list to which you opted in... That's very much an uncool thing. Please do not repeat that behavior.

          As far as him using tricks that are darker than what I personally approve ... He's made no secret of that. Unlike many here, he's consistent in what he says and does. No matter what I think of the techniques, I appreciate the honesty he shows in how he discusses them.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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          • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            dyadvisor,

            What anyone says about us on their blog or forum isn't generally a topic for discussion here, unless it involves direct action in this place. What Jeremy said in that email doesn't sound like blasting us (it's the truth, after all), but even if he were... so what?

            I think as highly of this place as anyone, but that does not stop me from expressing my opinions about its flaws when I think it's appropriate. Every site has them, and the bigger the site, the more flaws. I just have the good fortune to be in a position to do something about them on occasion.

            Calling someone a spammer for email they sent to a list to which you opted in... That's very much an uncool thing. Please do not repeat that behavior.

            As far as him using tricks that are darker than what I personally approve ... He's made no secret of that. Unlike many here, he's consistent in what he says and does. No matter what I think of the techniques, I appreciate the honesty he shows in how he discusses them.


            Paul
            You guys are doing a good job here....I'm sure, as we've seen in this thread, there are a million and 1 different ideas, thoughts, and personalities to navigate. Not too shabby of a job considering.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Unlike many here, he's consistent in what he says and does. No matter what I think of the techniques, I appreciate the honesty he shows in how he discusses them.
            Not to mention, Jeremy comes across as someone who has a good amount of understanding of business and marketing in general.

            These are highly admirable qualities.
            Signature

            "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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          • Profile picture of the author dyadvisor
            Sorry, but since when is buying a WSO thru Paypal automatically a double-opt in? I admitted by mistake. I am making the point, do not accuse others of being a crybaby, and then be one yourself.

            Sorry Jeremy, but I always treated my customers with respect. It is certainly your choice to run your business as you want.

            Never once did I publish a buyers name publicly. But it is your life. To me it is, if I treat a customer right they do likewise.

            Maybe that is now the minority way, in the race to get rich quick, by whatever trick used. Hopefully I am wrong as there are members I have bought from over a dozen times and have never been stabbed.

            Somewhere I learned that the person who complains the loudest often has something to hide.
            I have plenty of people that want my money, and $45 is my way of testing blindfolded. Those trustful get much much more.

            Maybe the buddy boys will nail that.... so be it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Maybe the buddy boys will nail that.... so be it.
              Would you be so kind as to clarify your meaning with that statement?
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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            • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
              Originally Posted by dyadvisor View Post

              Sorry, but since when is buying a WSO thru Paypal automatically a double-opt in?
              If the asking of this question is in some way related to "spam" - then you might want to consider reading the "CAN SPAM" rules more closely.

              From Wikipedia:

              There are no restrictions against a company emailing its existing customers or anyone who has inquired about its products or services, regardless of whether or not these individuals have given permission, as these messages are classified as "relationship" messages under CAN-SPAM.
              Signature
              eCoverNinja - Sales Page Graphics & Layout Specialist
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  • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
    I'm only a few pages into this thread, and respect the forum changes.
    Now, that being said, I think that, besides buying Google Sniper (*sigh*) and going to the bank, I have never ever ever ever paid attention to any product or WSO that's superlong and says $2305340232392.29 in 30 minutes. My "meter" goes off.

    I've only purchased 2 WSOs - Ultimate Backlinks, which filters and sorts but requires you to manually complete, and Derek's Special offer for keyword harvesting. Now it seems these items may be TOS violations but they're actually worth it in my opinion.

    Then again, time will tell. It sucks that people get scammed, but no newbies to IM have questioned the honesty of a literal number? It would seem like common sense to me. IM is hard work, you have to be in it to win it. There are no shortcuts to wealth, just shortcuts to organizing your time --- and you're still working hard!
    Signature

    I Go Hard = "Slanguage" for putting forth a lot of effort.

    Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.

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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    I'm glad that the WSO forum is getting the cleanup that it deserves... it was once a very great place to pick up some great offers.

    It shifted from: How can I give back to Warriors, to, How much can I get from Warriors?

    It's tempting to pay to post a WSO with the title:

    The ultimate secret to earning 10k each and every month...

    And inside the post:

    Stop buying junk, reading forums and apply some common sense: do some ****ing work... then you might earn some money!
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    eCoverNinja - Sales Page Graphics & Layout Specialist
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

      I'm glad that the WSO forum is getting the cleanup that it deserves... it was once a very great place to pick up some great offers.

      It shifted from: How can I give back to Warriors, to, How much can I get from Warriors?

      It's tempting to pay to post a WSO with the title:

      The ultimate secret to earning 10k each and every month...

      And inside the post:

      Stop buying junk, reading forums and apply some common sense: do some ****ing work... then you might earn some money!
      "It shifted from: How can I give back to Warriors, to, How much can I get from Warriors?"

      Can't disagree here....Alot of WSOs aren't even "special offers" to begin with, and I have seen some called out on it.....

      And, Warriors, who even appear to be in good-standing with high-post counts have responded with things like "Well, we still have to pay the bills..."

      ....if someone is relying on WF as the sole source of their income, then they have much bigger issues.....

      Originally Posted by Lauryn View Post

      I'm only a few pages into this thread, and respect the forum changes.
      Now, that being said, I think that, besides buying Google Sniper (*sigh*) and going to the bank, I have never ever ever ever paid attention to any product or WSO that's superlong and says $2305340232392.29 in 30 minutes. My "meter" goes off.

      I've only purchased 2 WSOs - Ultimate Backlinks, which filters and sorts but requires you to manually complete, and Derek's Special offer for keyword harvesting. Now it seems these items may be TOS violations but they're actually worth it in my opinion.

      Then again, time will tell. It sucks that people get scammed, but no newbies to IM have questioned the honesty of a literal number? It would seem like common sense to me. IM is hard work, you have to be in it to win it. There are no shortcuts to wealth, just shortcuts to organizing your time --- and you're still working hard!
      Me neither....but, these WSOs always seem to get the MOST traction....with the most comments and purchases....

      The unfortunate thing is that, when I read through the comments, there are rarely ever comments that have REAL TANGIBLE results....

      Never once have I read someone posting to one of those $10,000,000/hour threads about how they were actually able to achieve even remotely close to what the WSO says is possible.

      I think if those WSOs could produce real examples of people even doing remotely close to what they claim is possible.....they SHOULD be selling for multiples of $7.....

      Honestly, I would LOVE to see some testimonials of earning $10,000/day, but I just don't see them....that only leads me to believe that their headlines are particularly crafted in order to trigger emotions in order to, in those cases, gauge as much money from Warriors as possible....

      I run for the hills when I see those types of WSOs. It's comforting to know some changes are on the horizon.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        "It shifted from: How can I give back to Warriors, to, How much can I get from Warriors?"
        It was always a case of "how can I get from warriors". I havn't been here but 2 years, but think about it for a minute...

        1. You have to pay to post a wso
        2. The offers from there are for sale or giveaway for an email so that they can sell you tomorrow.

        "giving back to warriors" is a great USP, but to think that that is the REAL reason people were making, posting, and sharing/selling their information is a little naive to say the least.


        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Me neither....but, these WSOs always seem to get the MOST traction....with the most comments and purchases....
        And I'm willing to bet that the statement above just about sums it up for a majority of folks.

        So, you have a forum, that has members - members are also able to sell things, right? From the replys on the main forum, it would appear that everyone here is morally above doing anything "black hat" , right?

        Answer me this question then...why is it that the more aggressive WSO's do so much better? Why isn't white hat marketer A selling 500 copies of their WSO where their whole strategy is to tell you to build relationships?

        It would seem that with the way the morality on the forum is, that it wouldn't even make sense to sell a WSO that violated a sites TOS - The people would be in an uproar....so, you would think.

        The reality is, that it is a matter of perception...

        Take myself for example. From the way some folks talk about me, and make reference to me, you would think that i'm into all kinds of black-hat stuff. The reality is, I've for the most part violated on TOS - EZA's TOS to be exact in the past...

        The point that some of you are missing is that aggressive doesn't equal black hat...the aggressive WSO's do well, the members here that put themselves out there as aggressive do well with WSO's..

        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        The unfortunate thing is that, when I read through the comments, there are rarely ever comments that have REAL TANGIBLE results....
        And? There are plenty of folks - yourself included that are running "white hat" offers...as I scan through the comments, believe it or not, I don't see the comments with "real tangible results"

        Paul - I demand that you shut down all WSO's that don't have comments which don't have comments showing real tangible results.

        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Never once have I read someone posting to one of those $10,000,000/hour threads about how they were actually able to achieve even remotely close to what the WSO says is possible.
        2 years ago, I bought a DVD set that promised to help me drive the ball 150 yards further. In reality though, when it was all said and done, I added about 45 extra yards consistently to my drive - I was and still am a happy customer.

        QUOTE=x3xsolxdierx3x;2051229]I think if those WSOs could produce real examples of people even doing remotely close to what they claim is possible.....they SHOULD be selling for multiples of $7.....[/QUOTE]

        I think that you or anyone else here can tell the market what they are happy spending their money on, and those of you that think you can are delusional.

        Somehow you think you are protecting people in some way, in reality, you are hurting many of them. Many of the offers that you construe to be black-hat - ARE NOT. And because the whining, crying, and complaining has been so loud, the rules are being enforced with a broad stroke, and most of the time, the judgment is being made strictly by headlines and copy.

        Way to go folks...Penalize good copy...definitely something you would expect marketers to do - NOT.

        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Honestly, I would LOVE to see some testimonials of earning $10,000/day, but I just don't see them....that only leads me to believe that their headlines are particularly crafted in order to trigger emotions in order to, in those cases, gauge as much money from Warriors as possible....
        pot...kettle
        kettle...pot

        Show me a white hat offer where people are reporting the same results as the seller of said product...


        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        I run for the hills when I see those types of WSOs. It's comforting to know some changes are on the horizon.
        And that is your right to do so, but what right do YOU have to try and impose your views on others?

        What right do any of you have to tell another marketer what they can and can't have in their copy?

        I very rarely ever talk money - Hell, I avoid it at all costs most of the time, but here is a REAL SITUATION for you...

        For one of our streams of income, Don and I make mid X,XXX a week. That money is made 100% from Content Traffic and is the result of a specific way that we did things.

        Now assume that I wanted to make an info product from that and sell it...I know right off the bat that I would have to defend, and explain myself to folks like many in this thread...which to be honest with you, pisses me off a little bit.

        You can bet your ass, that I will be having Krista or Holly buying up WSO's like nobodies business from all of you "whitehat" marketers, and reporting each and every one of them that has ANYTHING which could violate a sites TOS in it to the help desk, so that you can be labeled, and judged just as you are all doing in this thread.

        I might even take my lead from you, and start posting in threads "hey, can you get one of your buyers here confirm that they have gotten the same results that you have?"...and when you can't, I will then label you a scammer, just like many of you here have done.

        For many of you, I don't think that it is really a matter of "right and wrong" - I think it's a matter of you being pissed off that you can't sell more than 50 copies of your WSO - all the while, watching others sell hundreds of copies.

        Guess what folks?

        Even if you eliminate 90% of the offers that are running, people still are not going to buy your 100% white hat guide that tells the people reading it to build relationships - unfortunately, there is only so many times that you can scramble that one around to sound interesting.

        The fact of the matter is - the aggressive marketers that are creating products are the ONLY ONES that are coming up with ANYTHING NEW...that is why people buy their offers.

        I personally understand what Allen is doing, and I've let Paul know personally, that not only do I support him, but am willing to help him should he need it..and honestly at this point, I think he might need my help separating what is black-hat and what isn't when it comes to things like CPA and some of the techniques, because it's obvious that some of you don't have a clue.

        Guess what? forcing people to fill out offers to view content in the CPA realm is not only acceptable to the networks, but encouraged - only one example, but there are many more that some of you will complain about only because it is too aggressive for your liking...guess what part 2? That strategy alone is responsible for many people making XXXX a day, but I guess you can no longer let people know that.

        Paul do you think it is possible to get a section of the forum devoted to those people that just really want to learn how to market and promote products...maybe like a war room for folks with a clue - at this point, I'm not saying that to be a smart ASS I'm saying that because I really think it might be needed lol
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        • Profile picture of the author Dave d
          Im inclined to agree with Jeremy on this one as I think there is some naivety being displayed by x3xsolxdierx3x.

          Lets be realistic about this for a second. If a marketer has a method that earns a $100 a day and wants to market this method they may sit down and calculate that this equates to $36500 a year. They may figure out a way to outsource or scale this to potentially earn 3 times that about which is $328,000 a year.

          Now here is the point. As a marketer are you going to be afraid to put in your title or sales page earn $100,000's doing blah blah for fear of offending people or being labelled a scammer.

          or

          Are you going to play it safe and say you might earn a $100 a day doing this.

          As a marketer the $100,000 title looks better and you would be well within your rights to do that. If somebody buys and does not fully implement it to its maximum capacity then that does not mean they have been scammed.

          Its like when I see a car ad that says something like 45mpg and you read the small print you will see that is the maximum in the most ideal conditions and it will vary according to driving habits etc. Are they scammers becuase you dont get 45mpg everytime you take a drive ? No that would be ridiculous. Thats just marketing plain and simple.

          On the other hand if you have a WSO thread where there is a ton of people complaining that they have been scammed then that should be looked it to, without a doubt.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post


          "giving back to warriors" is a great USP, but to think that that is the REAL reason people were making, posting, and sharing/selling their information is a little naive to say the least.

          Answer me this question then...why is it that the more aggressive WSO's do so much better? Why isn't white hat marketer A selling 500 copies of their WSO where their whole strategy is to tell you to build relationships?

          It would seem that with the way the morality on the forum is, that it wouldn't even make sense to sell a WSO that violated a sites TOS - The people would be in an uproar....so, you would think.

          The reality is, that it is a matter of perception...

          The point that some of you are missing is that aggressive doesn't equal black hat...the aggressive WSO's do well, the members here that put themselves out there as aggressive do well with WSO's..

          And? There are plenty of folks - yourself included that are running "white hat" offers...as I scan through the comments, believe it or not, I don't see the comments with "real tangible results"

          Paul - I demand that you shut down all WSO's that don't have comments which don't have comments showing real tangible results.

          Way to go folks...Penalize good copy...definitely something you would expect marketers to do - NOT.

          What right do any of you have to tell another marketer what they can and can't have in their copy?

          For many of you, I don't think that it is really a matter of "right and wrong" - I think it's a matter of you being pissed off that you can't sell more than 50 copies of your WSO - all the while, watching others sell hundreds of copies.

          Even if you eliminate 90% of the offers that are running, people still are not going to buy your 100% white hat guide that tells the people reading it to build relationships - unfortunately, there is only so many times that you can scramble that one around to sound interesting.

          Paul do you think it is possible to get a section of the forum devoted to those people that just really want to learn how to market and promote products...maybe like a war room for folks with a clue - at this point, I'm not saying that to be a smart ASS I'm saying that because I really think it might be needed lol
          You know, I agree with much of what you say and there's a tone in this thread of goody goody two shoes against pure evil that is somewhat disconcerting. I don't agree that all copy that sells is good copy. If it contains lies and deception, it is lies and deception ... nothing more than that. You don't seem to make any distinction between good aggressive copy and just outright lies.

          As for people posting back to WSOs, few people really do in both white and black hat offers. But you're wrong if you think that you can't sell hundreds and hundreds of white hat offers, because I do it all the time, and I do make an income claim in the FlipAce product and it's a very realistic claim. Instead of posting in the WSO thread, although many people have, people email me all the time to thank me for getting them on a profitable road to flipping sites. That's good enough for me as I have never been one to nudge and prod my customers to post in my thread just to get those reviews. All of the comments there have been natural.

          Now even though my business is white hat, I will openly admit that I have purchased many backlinking services with great results. These nasty little links are on sites that are inviting nasty little links. If they weren't, it wouldn't be possible to post them in the first place. That being said, I would never use xrumer or automated spam linking programs to post irrelevant comments all over people's blogs, etc., but to build social profiles where social profiles are allowed or to use other linking methods that to me are completely within a sites TOS because they allow those links and encourage use of their site, is somewhat hypocritical and to paint it all BLACK just isn't reality.

          I liked a comment you made before in this thread about the "compliance fairies" and somehow I can foresee all of this leading to a mass amount of compliance fairies stifling the flow of coversation here.

          We just had an article marketing thread closed for further comments ... someone thinks article marketing is spam and should be banished to some dark little subforum where no one will bother to post in it.

          We can't talk about backlinks ... will the SEO forum be closed now? I'm not involved in CPA offers, so have no input on that forum, but I've talked on other topics only to have my posts deleted ...probably because I'm the kind of person who says what's on my mind with no BS about it. How will all of this affect honest, open communications about important and even controversial marketing topics only remains to be seen.
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        • Profile picture of the author bay37
          Jeremy speaks sense.

          I know I'm a quiet member - I'd rather spend my time working than lurking on IM forums trying to convince people that FTC is going to come after them because of a false claim in the title of their latest $7 WSO.

          ...and that my opinion doesn't really matter to anyone here - I haven't been here for at least 3-5 years and I obviously have no idea how cool the "old WF" was (this is what I gathered after reading 5 pages of posts from some of the "senior" members here - good stuff).

          But for what it's worth:

          I fully agree and support what the administration/moderators are doing here. I believe that a good clean up was long overdue. Thanks for doing this.

          I also think that this thread is not benefiting anyone. It's turned into a place for permanent forum "lurkers" to express their opinions and views on subjects that they have no idea about.

          Jeremy summed it up better than I ever could:

          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          Somehow you think you are protecting people in some way, in reality, you are hurting many of them. Many of the offers that you construe to be black-hat - ARE NOT.
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

          For many of you, I don't think that it is really a matter of "right and wrong" - I think it's a matter of you being pissed off that you can't sell more than 50 copies of your WSO - all the while, watching others sell hundreds of copies.
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

          The fact of the matter is - the aggressive marketers that are creating products are the ONLY ONES that are coming up with ANYTHING NEW...that is why people buy their offers.
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

          The most frustrating part is that the accusations are coming from people that far and large aren't doing a damn thing except for policing what others do.
          /agreed.

          Jeremy, I believe you have better things to do with your time. Take a step back and have a good think about this whole situation one more time. It's just not worth your time.

          Paul, you don't need to keep explaining your actions to every loud-mouth here. You put enough effort into moderating this forum as it is. Don't feed the trolls and they will go away. Let them post angry threads about you on other forums, who cares..?

          Have a good day everyone. I'm going back to work.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

            Paul, you don't need to keep explaining your actions to every loud-mouth here.
            Ah, but that's not what I'm doing at all. I keep explaining this and people keep not grokking it: I do not expect to convince people who've made up their minds. I discuss with those people for the benefit of those who have not yet decided. It gives them more information on which to base a decision.

            From that perspective, can you see the benefit of letting this discussion continue?


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            • Profile picture of the author bay37
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              From that perspective, can you see the benefit of letting this discussion continue?
              Thanks for taking your time to reply.

              *What is written below is simply my opinion.*

              I think that there is more than enough on-topic information in this thread for anyone who is truly interested and/or concerned to base a decision on.

              Most people are just too lazy to read through all of the posts, so they keep asking the same questions over and over again.

              Others are simply looking for a "fight". You've already had a few "fights" with such people in here, any more would just be repeating the same thing over and over again.

              Perhaps it would be a good idea to lock & sticky this thread. That way it's right at the top of the forum where everyone should see it (and it's full of conflicting opinions and discussion to satisfy both groups: the drama-seekers and those who are genuinely interested in what's going on/being done).

              Again, all of the above is purely my opinion, nothing else.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Bay37,

                No problem. You make some excellent points, and they're probably valid for most such discussions. I have my own reasons here.


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  • Profile picture of the author Edward Rubi
    I think that if it's too good to be true, then it probably is. $7 to find out is not a lot of money though. I also think that you will build your reputation with honesty, and integrity. Jim Cockrum is #1 on the top 25 internet marketers and have followed him for a long time. His reputation is impeccable.
    I joined one of Jim's forums and found something that makes me about 8k a month using eBay. It's a bit of work, but he said it would work and it did. Thanks Jim!
    Sometimes you will find things out there that work and sometimes not, but if you don't look, you will never find it. Hope this helps.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jeremy,
      Answer me this question then...why is it that the more aggressive WSO's do so much better?
      Because people want the dream of easy money. That's the biggest reason for most of them. That and the fact that an awful lot of them are scamming the hell out of people with shills and lies.

      Are there solid, legitimate offers in the aggressive group? Hell yes. And they deserve every sale they make. But they are not the majority of that group, which is what I've said right along.
      "giving back to warriors" is a great USP, but to think that that is the REAL reason people were making, posting, and sharing/selling their information is a little naive to say the least.
      It used to be half the reason, the other half being extra sales. And yes, that really was a big thing for a lot of people. You don't know what this place was like 7 and 10 years ago.

      Now, it's a pirannha tank, like I said earlier.

      As far as the CPA stuff, I've stayed away from that for the moment, other than to warn a couple of people about the changed enforcement. I've also had a few people change their copy, when the tools involved could be used either way, but the copy set a BH tone.

      Whatever impression you may have, there's no indiscriminate slash and burn stuff going on.


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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Jeremy,Because people want the dream of easy money. That's the biggest reason for most of them. That and the fact that an awful lot of them are scamming the hell out of people with shills and lies.
        Paul, that's the thing though...even the white hat offers somewhere along the way lead people to believe that big money can be made with their system, or there is some sort of big benefit that is pushed, which even if the money isn't the primary benefit, it is certainly still there.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Are there solid, legitimate offers in the aggressive group? Hell yes. And they deserve every sale they make. But they are not the majority of that group, which is what I've said right along.It used to be half the reason, the other half being extra sales. And yes, that really was a big thing for a lot of people. You don't know what this place was like 7 and 10 years ago.
        Admittedly, I wasn't here 7 or 10 years ago, so there are some things that I definitely can't speak on. However, seriously read some of these threads, and notice the "blanket statements" being made. Apparently if a large percentage of folks here had their way, just about any offer you could think of would be non-compliant in some way, shape, or forum...unless of course it was theirs...you know, because they would never do anything "bad".





        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Whatever impression you may have, there's no indiscriminate slash and burn stuff going on.


        Paul
        Paul, I know you are not "slashing and burning" - I was speaking more to the tone of some of the posts, and thoughts expressed. I personally know that you are reasonable, and that anyone with a legitimate offer is "safe" so to say and will be able to do business as usual.

        But...

        Some of the statements being made, and the assumptions about Earning claims in copy being nothing more than a scam tactic, and somehow lumping people into a group because of how their copy reads without actually looking at the offer is borderline retarded for the lack of a better word.

        The most frustrating part is that the accusations are coming from people that far and large aren't doing a damn thing except for policing what others do.

        Obviously at the end of the day, it's Allens call to make, and you are here to enforce the rules, so I'm confident that all will be well, but the tone that is being set is one that is going to be detrimental to MANY folks here. If some people had their way, they would like folks to think that everything is a scam, black hat, and not ethical.

        When you start judging the way other people do business, it's a slippery slope to walk without knowing exactly what they are doing - that's all I'm trying to say.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        We just had an article marketing thread closed for further comments ... someone thinks article marketing is spam and should be banished to some dark little subforum where no one will bother to post in it.
        Actually, if you're talking about Bob Puddy's thread, that's not why it was closed. It was closed because the topic (creating a separate forum for the subject) was going nowhere, and has little chance of going anywhere unless Allen decides to do it.

        I closed it, and you'll note from my comments that I don't have any problem with legitimate article marketing.

        Assuming actions are taken based on who agrees or disagrees with a point of view is dangerous. It leads to all sorts of wrong conclusions that can add up to bad feelings and suspicions that don't help anyone.

        I will tell you one thing I get mighty damned sick of every time there's a policy issue being discussed. The regular and repeated suggestion that it's all about pushing our own views on the whole membership, and shunning open discussion, and the "good old boys network" controlling everything.

        There's been plenty of disagreement over this action. Only two people were banned, and I'm quite satisfied that they were well-deserved. Only one person has been banned for the ads, and that was temporary, and because he bumped one after being asked not to. I will probably lift that early.

        The other mods are leaving this one to me, so any comments about how this is handled are directed at me, personally. If you think I'm trying to stifle legitimate discussion in an unfair way, just come out and say it. Don't hint around about it, because that pisses me off more than any accusation of being a liar.


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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Jeremy,
          Some of the statements being made, and the assumptions about Earning claims in copy being nothing more than a scam tactic, and somehow lumping people into a group because of how their copy reads without actually looking at the offer is borderline retarded for the lack of a better word.
          Bottom line: Those people aren't making or enforcing policy.

          I've stated my reasons for disliking and mistrusting offers that make income claims. I stand by them. And I don't think they're unreasonable at all. As I said, if the only benefit was getting rid of the offers made by members of one group that comes in here for the sole and express purpose of scamming the members of this group, I'd consider it a worthwhile change to make.

          You know exactly who I'm talking about...


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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Well, given all the discussion so far and what I think it all means (I could be
            way off base) I have a simple question and one that I think is more than
            fair.

            When a member submits a WSO, if the person moderating feels it is against
            the new policy, whether it be because of the offer itself or the way it's
            worded, will the submitter be outright banned or will they simply be told
            their WSO does not conform to guidelines and if not, will an explanation be
            given?

            Given that there doesn't seem to be any cut and dried rules as to copy
            wording, I would hope that if that is the reason for the decline of the WSO,
            it will be stated AND pointed out what line(s) need to be changed or
            removed.

            I know that in the past I have had WSOs not approved because of things
            that had nothing to do with income claims but because of some other
            statement made and that statement was highlighted in the rejection
            email.

            I am hoping that policy will continue so that we can at least make the
            changed necessary to make our WSOs compliant.

            A clarification on this will be greatly appreciated.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Steven,

              I have already said that I won't speak for the person who handles WSO approval. I don't know the load or the time constraints that go with it, and I wouldn't speak for someone else if I did.


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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Steven,

                I have already said that I won't speak for the person who handles WSO approval. I don't know the load or the time constraints that go with it, and I wouldn't speak for someone else if I did.


                Paul
                Forgive me if I am sounding dense here but then if I'm understanding you
                correctly, the WSO mod could approve the WSO, and then whoever double
                checks them for compliance (I assume you?) can yank them after the fact.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Steven,
                  Forgive me if I am sounding dense here but then if I'm understanding you correctly, the WSO mod could approve the WSO, and then whoever double checks them for compliance (I assume you?) can yank them after the fact.
                  Yep, if something gets by. I doubt anyone would be banned for that, and they'd probably receive a refund. Unless, of course, they'd been warned previously about NOT doing it.

                  We are not looking to hammer people. Just get rid of the abusive stuff.


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            • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


              When a member submits a WSO, if the person moderating feels it is against
              the new policy, whether it be because of the offer itself or the way it's
              worded, will the submitter be outright banned or will they simply be told
              their WSO does not conform to guidelines and if not, will an explanation be
              given?
              Isn't the payment thing not done until the page is approved? You get approved, and a link is sent to you to go make payment.

              Hey, if someone makes it through and knows the rules and then gets their offer scrapped after the fact, that should be the gamble they take with their 20 bucks.
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Actually, if you're talking about Bob Puddy's thread, that's not why it was closed. It was closed because the topic (creating a separate forum for the subject) was going nowhere, and has little chance of going anywhere unless Allen decides to do it.

          I closed it, and you'll note from my comments that I don't have any problem with legitimate article marketing.
          OH MY GOD... I'm mortified... A thread of mine closed

          The shame the shame
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          If you think I'm trying to stifle legitimate discussion in an unfair way, just come out and say it. Don't hint around about it, because that pisses me off more than any accusation of being a liar.


          Paul
          No need to draw your sword. Actually, my comment wasn't about you or mods in general stifling legitimate discussion. My comment was more to do with the fact that there isn't a single marketing method around that someone on this board doesn't think is a scam or a TOS violation in some way or another. The article marketing thread was just an example of someone wanting to put a legitimate marketing topic in a deep dark subforum because he thinks it's spam.

          My comment was that legitimate marketing discussions might be stifled and derailed by over-zealous wanna-be mods, or "compliance fairies" as Jeremy so amusingly put it.

          You see, I'm of the opinion that Allen and the mods do a great job and no interference is required by members in regards to running the forum, with the exception of the reporting of obvious spam or flame bait posts or other TOS violations.

          I'm also curious as to how this impacts the Adsense/PPC/SEO Forum. Right now about 50% of the discussions are about backlinks and there's even an xrummer thread in there. Does Rule #7 apply to discussions or to just WSOs? Does it also apply to the Classifieds and Warriors for Hire? How does this all affect those conversations? Should members now report all of those conversations or leave it all to the mods? It seems unfair somehow that paid posts are not allowed, but people in the SEO forum freely discuss profile/backlinking strategies that are now not allowed in the WSO forum. These people are teaching the same tactics that were being taught through WSOs.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...t-welcome.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...backlinks.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...cles-safe.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...backlinks.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...-good-bad.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...ow-fast-2.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...backlinks.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...e-indexed.html

          All of the above are discussions about techniques that are black hat or violate TOS of other sites.

          Are all backlinking strategies spam? What about social bookmarks such as del.icio.us and all of the other social bookmark sites whose only reason for existence is to submit your bookmarks (links). What about services that will submit your link to social bookmarking sites ... are they gone too?
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Suzanne,
            My comment was more to do with the fact that there isn't a single marketing method around that someone on this board doesn't think is a scam or a TOS violation in some way or another.
            Fortunately, those people don't make or enforce policy.

            Once we get things back to normalish, it will be much easier for the members to tell those people why they're wrong, and just where to put their objections. As it stands now, there are plenty of stones for them to throw, and that needs fixed.
            I'm also curious as to how this impacts the Adsense/PPC/SEO Forum.
            They're next.

            The three "problem children" have been the CPA, SEO and Links sections, all of which are without their own dedicated moderators. And, unsurprisingly, all of which tend toward the darker side of IM. We got the worst of the stuff out of the CPA section a while back, but I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done there.

            Les and I have been dealing with the violators in the Links section for the past few days. That one will be pretty easy, aside from listening to the complaints. It's a clear cut proposition: If you don't own the site, you don't offer a link on it in that section.
            Are all backlinking strategies spam?
            Obviously not. Despite what some people would suggest, there are a lot of very effective ways to handle backlinks that don't involve screwing with other people's sites in ways they don't approve.

            Again, this is not about how Google views things. I don't personally care what they think either way. If someone wants to play the Google game, that's between them and the Big G. This is about not contributing to abuse of someone else's resources.


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  • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
    Banned
    Paul I applaud your efforts.

    I think the WSO Marketplace will once again be a serious place where people are selling quality products and not just one hit "wonders".

    I will make sure I double check before posting an offer.
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