Has there been a change in WSO Rules lately??

15 years ago

Paul is a moderator and has been here since the beginning, pretty much. You definitely want to pay attention to what he says.

Tina

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Can't tell you its legit (only Paul can confirm that ) but believe it may be. EDIT: IF it contains his name as the sender - it is legit. It is consistent with what Paul has been saying in multiple threads. Its not a change in the rules as I understand it but a "change" in enforcement.

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Martin Avis

15 years ago

His name is Paul Myers (not Meyers) and he is somewhat more than a moderator.

Don't mess with him because if he messes back you won't enjoy the experience.

As to his message to you, it seems pretty clear: your service may have been accepted in the past, but it no longer complies with the WSO rules.

Martin

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Kevin Riley

15 years ago

Paul who? Be careful of pranksters. This guy sounds like one of our loonier whackos. I believe he has gone off his medication again, and will soon be back in the rubber room.

Oh, wait! Paul Myers? Yes, he might just pull some might around here. I believe he now wears the Sheriff star in the WSO forum. He may be about 100 years old, nearly blind, and a toothless old dog, but he does carry the star.

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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Oh, I feel like a wank now for trying to acknowledge Paul's PM.

Thanks for informing me about that change in rules.. You're the man!!

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

Oh, I feel like a wank now for trying to acknowledge Paul's PM.

Thanks for informing me about that change in rules.. You're the man!!

As others have said -- yep, that's legit.

And it isn't a change in rules, as #7 has been sitting in the WSO rules for a while now. It's just that now it's more likely that those who break the rule will get called on it.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

As others have said -- yep, that's legit.

And it isn't a change in rules, as #7 has been sitting in the WSO rules for a while now. It's just that now it's more likely that those who break the rule will get called on it.

Perhaps...

but the wording of the same type of PM that I saw from Paul, makes it seem like WF is creating bright-line rules, which they plan to implement whether or not a particular WSO violates Rule #7. That is, if they deem a genre of backlinking as general violative of other sites TOS, then you can't post any WSOs in that area, even if your particular WSO is clean as a whistle.

For instance, I wonder how this impacts people who offer backlinks to sites they own (since clearly they aren't violating their own TOS).

Lets say I bought 1000 domains, and installed SMF forums on all of them. Based upon what I have seen today, you couldn't have a WSO whereby I provided forum links on my own sites, even if I'm clearly not violating my own TOS's.

Also, a restriction on proxies just seems crazy to me. Am I the only one who doesn't like *anyone* spying on me or my IP address? Privacy matters.

Tom

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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

For instance, I wonder how this impacts people who offer backlinks to sites they own (since clearly they aren't violating their own TOS).

Lets say I bought 1000 domains, and installed SMF forums on all of them. Based upon what I have seen today, you couldn't have a WSO whereby I provided forum links on my own sites, even if I'm clearly not violating my own TOS's.

The probability of somebody buying a 1000 domains, setting up a 1000 forums for the purpose of selling backlinks is very dim............. but if that is the case then it won't fall in the same criteria

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Clyde

15 years ago

Originally Posted by theimdude

The probability of somebody buying a 1000 domains, setting up a 1000 forums for the purpose of selling backlinks is very dim............. but if that is the case then it won't fall in the same criteria

Very dim?

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any linking scheme by Jon Leger.

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by theimdude

The probability of somebody buying a 1000 domains, setting up a 1000 forums for the purpose of selling backlinks is very dim............. but if that is the case then it won't fall in the same criteria

Lets not discuss whats dim ... because thats happened a ton already. Maybe not 1000's but certainly 500+

Also - last I looked screen name wasnt Paul Myers - I think I ll wait for his take on it.

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Igirl 15 years ago

This is only for WSO right, we can post in the Warrior for Hire section?
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- Andy Fletcher 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ZMan73
  
  This is only for WSO right, we can post in the Warrior for Hire section?
  
  This has been covered before in the thread. The WFH section isn't currently being looked at but will be once the WSO stuff dies down.
  
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- PhilJL 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ZMan73
  
  This is only for WSO right, we can post in the Warrior for Hire section?
  
  Paul said: "First the WSOs, then the Classifieds, the link section and Warriors For Hire. Sig files will be on a "See them and fix them" basis. Lowest current priority."
  
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samd123

15 years ago

this sounds like a nightmare to manage accurately - proably will reveal more innovative groundbreaking offers which hopefully should move things forward developmentally for everyone involved in IM - change causes upset, but life is all about change - when you align yourself to change then you see that it is to be welcomed

All the best

Sam

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Sam,

this sounds like a nightmare to manage accurately

It would be, if we expected to get it perfect. Fortunately, we all know that won't happen. That's one of the reasons for the "don't bump" note, rather than just closing and deleting things. Leaves room to correct the mistakes that will inevitably be made.

I went through 12 pages of the links section and got rid of a bunch of stuff there. It's amazing how many people think that's a free version of the WSO forum.

Paul

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seo_genius

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Sam,It would be, if we expected to get it perfect. Fortunately, we all know that won't happen. That's one of the reasons for the "don't bump" note, rather than just closing and deleting things. Leaves room to correct the mistakes that will inevitably be made.

I went through 12 pages of the links section and got rid of a bunch of stuff there. It's amazing how many people think that's a free version of the WSO forum.

Paul

Paul, I sent you some queries regarding the updated WSO rule..
Did you receive?

Kindly confirm.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seo_genius

Paul, I sent you some queries regarding the updated WSO rule.. Did you receive?

Yes, I did. And no, you may not.

Your copy says the links will be content-based, and the type that webmasters appreciate. I've heard that hundreds of times. Sometimes it's even true, but not usually. It's not a matter of anyone necessarily lying, mind you. Just that an SEO guy's idea of "welcome" content isn't always in line with a site owner's idea of the same thing.

For example, the link spammer I just nuked. His one-liners were obviously hand-typed and marginally related to the threads in which he posted, but they were nonsense, and contributed nothing. He very likely told his prospects that the posts he'd make would be relevant and useful, and he may have even believed it. Doesn't change the fact that they were nothing but pointless spam.

Maybe your content would be useful and welcome. I don't know. We have no way to verify that, and that leaves it as just another link building offer. With a bunch of other very useful sounding bits attached, certainly, but it's still link building. Even the stuff that sounds legit in that field is out for now.

One thing that makes me wonder about all of these offers... You're guaranteeing contextually appropriate links for customers, regardless of the niche. It seems to me it would require an astonishing level of general knowledge to fulfill that promise. Anything less and you would necessarily be adding meaningless or irrelevant content.

Paul

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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

One thing that makes me wonder about all of these offers... You're guaranteeing contextually appropriate links for customers, regardless of the niche. It seems to me it would require an astonishing level of general knowledge to fulfill that promise. Anything less and you would necessarily be adding meaningless or irrelevant content.

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Andy,

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

That's a fair question. I'm not sure I have seen any article writer guaranteeing accurate info on any and all subjects, but maybe some have.

The associated question is: Do we believe that an SEO service is going to do the research and writing necessary to meet the stated standard. I find that sufficiently unlikely that it makes me wonder about the resulting context.

That part of the post is just musing, though. The basic premise is: It includes a link building service, and we're not allowing any of those at the moment.

Paul
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

Yes, you should. And here's how this article writer, at least, handles it.

If I can't do the job, I tell you I can't do it. I tell you why I can't do it. And I try to point you at someone who can.

If I were to tell someone I could write on any niche, and they said "Oh yeah? What about left-handed veterinarian skydivers?" - I'd give it a shot. And if I succeeded, I would blow a fanfare and light up a big sign that said "YES I FREAKIN' DID IT" so everyone would know.

But if I failed... or saw every indication that I was going to fail... I would neither take the client's money, nor deliver something that wasn't good enough.

Most decent writers do the same. Most backlink providers, on the other hand, do not.

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grayambition

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

If I can't do the job, I tell you I can't do it. I tell you why I can't do it. And I try to point you at someone who can.

But if I failed... or saw every indication that I was going to fail... I would neither take the client's money, nor deliver something that wasn't good enough.

Most decent writers do the same. Most backlink providers, on the other hand, do not.

Like he said.

Here's the thing. For $3-5, you won't find many writers willing to do any amount of serious research. If I'm being adequately compensated, however, I can and will research virtually any topic to the point that I can sound like an expert. Given enough time and money (and possibly a Lexis/Nexis account), a good writer can write about almost anything.

Heck, that's what I did when I wrote computer books. My agent told me what program I'd be writing about. I learned it well enough to write about it. No problem.

Problem is, for what most blog spammers (er, commenters) charge and what most people are willing to pay for this service, there's no margin for research, so you will almost invariably end up with the kind of blog spam Paul is trying to clean up.

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4morereferrals 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

Question or outright ban for directory spamming? Im sure all the article directories crave your 116th iteration of Puppy Potty Training drivel.

3 cheers for PLR! ..... errrr ... I mean, high quality unique content.

I read Andy's query to mean the fact that a great many of the great white hat washed - or those professing to be are likely [daily] violating TOS by blasting their "quality content" all over the buhhhjeeezus and back ... all the while turning their collective noses up at people backlink spamming.

I could be wrong ...

I know there's no concern of violating googles notion of trying to game the algo with spun content, but - the irony just doesnt escape me. For all those atop the white hat mountain staring down upon the lowly automated backlink peasants ... Id hope you're cleaning up your acts as well ... Ive seen your articles on EZA and in the index. Your white hats need a trip to the dry cleaners.
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seo_genius

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yes, I did. And no, you may not.

Your copy says the links will be content-based, and the type that webmasters appreciate. I've heard that hundreds of times. Sometimes it's even true, but not usually. It's not a matter of anyone necessarily lying, mind you. Just that an SEO guy's idea of "welcome" content isn't always in line with a site owner's idea of the same thing.

For example, the link spammer I just nuked. His one-liners were obviously hand-typed and marginally related to the threads in which he posted, but they were nonsense, and contributed nothing. He very likely told his prospects that the posts he'd make would be relevant and useful, and he may have even believed it. Doesn't change the fact that they were nothing but pointless spam.

Maybe your content would be useful and welcome. I don't know. We have no way to verify that, and that leaves it as just another link building offer. With a bunch of other very useful sounding bits attached, certainly, but it's still link building. Even the stuff that sounds legit in that field is out for now.

One thing that makes me wonder about all of these offers... You're guaranteeing contextually appropriate links for customers, regardless of the niche. It seems to me it would require an astonishing level of general knowledge to fulfill that promise. Anything less and you would necessarily be adding meaningless or irrelevant content.

Paul

I have replied your post in the PM.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Also, a restriction on proxies just seems crazy to me. Am I the only one who doesn't like *anyone* spying on me or my IP address? Privacy matters.

Tom

I stand to be impacted too if all backlink lists are ultimately ruled out but I think we all know that Proxies on these tools are not for normal privacy concerns. They're used to circumvent being blocked by the web services in question.
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tom,

but the wording of the same type of PM that I saw from Paul, makes it seem like WF is creating bright-line rules, which they plan to implement whether or not a particular WSO violates Rule #7. That is, if they deem a genre of backlinking as general violative of other sites TOS, then you can't post any WSOs in that area, even if your particular WSO is clean as a whistle.

Problem: Proof. When it comes to WSOs, too many people tell too many lies. Just like most other kinds of online advertising. We'll never get it perfect, but this gets the job done in a way that doesn't discriminate and doesn't create hard feelings and hostility.

Also, a restriction on proxies just seems crazy to me. Am I the only one who doesn't like *anyone* spying on me or my IP address? Privacy matters.

I've said before that proxies have legitimate uses. I've also said that they are rarely used for anything but abuse when you're talking about marketing automation.

I'm also on the record as believing that hiding your identity when you're selling something is... less than acceptable.

Paul

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tom,Problem: Proof. When it comes to WSOs, too many people tell too many lies. Just like most other kinds of online advertising. We'll never get it perfect, but this gets the job done in a way that doesn't discriminate and doesn't create hard feelings and hostility

Hi Paul,

I guess I'm confused by your comment. I believe you are saying that we can't have an WSO where we place links on sites we own (because that would constitute a backlinks WSO), but I am not 100% sure. For instance, I guess if I set up a 100 site mini-network of WP blogs I personally bought and run, I couldn't have an WSO where people got posting rights there? Can't I just email someone a screencap showing my hosting for all the sites, lol. Not all backlinks are evil.

Tom

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tom,

I guess I'm confused by your comment. I believe you are saying that we can't have an WSO where we place links on sites we own (because that would constitute a backlinks WSO), but I am not 100% sure.

No offers for backlinking services.

There. That should not be confusing. I'm not going to get into exceptions. There's no way to deal with that without fighting with every person who runs one, because they can all figure out ways to claim theirs is different. Might be, but I have limited time and my own business to run.

Paul

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J Bold

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tom,No offers for backlinking services.

There. That should not be confusing. I'm not going to get into exceptions. There's no way to deal with that without fighting with every person who runs one, because they can all figure out ways to claim theirs is different. Might be, but I have limited time and my own business to run.

Paul

Except for those that offer posting to article directories and press release directories in order to get backlinks, right?

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DogScout

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

For instance, I wonder how this impacts people who offer backlinks to sites they own (since clearly they aren't violating their own TOS).

Lets say I bought 1000 domains, and installed SMF forums on all of them. Based upon what I have seen today, you couldn't have a WSO whereby I provided forum links on my own sites, even if I'm clearly not violating my own TOS's.

Tom

Artificial back-links does violate the TOS of any site that wishes to remain indexed by Google? The promulgation of any back-links puts the site offering them (whether or not they are in violation of the sites the links are on) become in in jeopardy of violating Goggles TOS?

From Google Webmaster Tools: Here

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by DogScout

Artificial back-links does violate the TOS of any site that wishes to remain indexed by Google? The promulgation of any back-links puts the site offering them (whether or not they are in violation of the sites the links are on) become in in jeopardy of violating Goggles TOS?

From Google Webmaster Tools: Here

You sir, are 100% incorrect and that is not even up for debate.

In order to violate a site's TOS, you must agree to a site's TOS. This can be in the form of a signature (real or electronic) or clicking a "submit" button. From wikipedia, "Terms of service (abbreviated as "ToS" or "TOS") are rules by which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Usually, such terms are legally binding."

If I have a site on dog training, and I buy (paid) links to my site, am I violating the TOS of Google (with respect to its search engine)? Of course you aren't because you never agreed to the terms of service. Now, can google decide to alter the "value" of your website in Google's eyes (either in terms of PR or SERP ranking) based upon the paid links? Sure.

But that only has to do with Google's voluntary index, and has NOTHING to do with violating Google's TOS.

Where do people come up with this stuff.

Tom

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DogScout

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

You sir, are 100% incorrect and that is not even up for debate.

In order to violate a site's TOS, you must agree to a site's TOS. This can be in the form of a signature (real or electronic) or clicking a "submit" button. From wikipedia, "Terms of service (abbreviated as "ToS" or "TOS") are rules by which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Usually, such terms are legally binding."

If I have a site on dog training, and I buy (paid) links to my site, am I violating the TOS of Google (with respect to its search engine)? Of course you aren't because you never agreed to the terms of service. Now, can google decide to alter the "value" of your website in Google's eyes (either in terms of PR or SERP ranking) based upon the paid links? Sure.

But that only has to do with Google's voluntary index, and has NOTHING to do with violating Google's TOS.

Where do people come up with this stuff.

Tom

Thanks, Hence the '?'s

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Google's decisions about what to index are not a function of a TOS, unless you're using one of their other services. They're a choice made by an outside third party. Not our business to tell them what to do, or to get into the decisions people can make that will harm them, rank-wise.

If someone gets de-indexed for screwing around, that's between them and G.

It is entirely possible to do all sorts of things that do not break the TOS of any of the sites involved and still get slapped by Google. That's the risk you take when you play that game. But it is not a function of breaking the rules of any of the directly affected sites, so it's not something we will get involved with.

There is a difference between being a good neighbor and telling people what to do in their own house.

Paul
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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

See this thread for more discussion on the same topic -

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...mpetition.html

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milan

15 years ago

Yes, this change has been announced.
Your WSO clearly doesn't comply with the rule #7, so, I'm afraid you can't bump it anymore.

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entry 15 years ago

Originally Posted by milan

Yes, this change has been announced.
Your WSO clearly doesn't comply with the rule #7, so, I'm afraid you can't bump it anymore.

What is this rule 7 ?
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- Mike Anthony 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by entry
  
  What is this rule 7 ?
  
  http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...12-3-09-a.html
  
  First post #7
  
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- Clyde 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by entry
  
  What is this rule 7 ?
  
  Rule #7 is you never talk about Rule #7. :p
  
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by entry
  
  What is this rule 7 ?
  
  "No poofters."
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  "No poofters."
  
  And rules numbered 1, 3 and 5.
  
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  Sandy Cormack 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  "No poofters."
  
  Speaking of Monty Python...not too long ago I bought a WSO that reminded me of the MP sketch called 'How To Do It Lessons,' the one that taught you to play the flute by saying: 'Blow in this end and move your fingers up and down the other.'
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

It's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it? No WSOs that violate the TOS of other sites, so that's going to include automated backlinking, spam linking, auto blog spamming, auto Social bookmarking, auto submissions of most kinds.

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badboy_Nick

15 years ago

Kinda does say what it says ... pretty clear to me

Nick

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Paul who? Be careful of pranksters. This guy sounds like one of our loonier whackos. I believe he has gone off his medication again, and will soon be back in the rubber room.

Somebody done took me thanks button away.

lol

Wow! Thank you to the OP for showing what you got. I think that generic response is quite detailed and very well done (Paul

).

I'm not used to getting PM's from Paul, so no offense - please don't start sending me any now.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Yes, that's me. And yes, that exact text was approved by Allen.

This seemed the fairest way to deal with a situation that got completely out of hand. The place was starting to look blacker than my favorite Stetson, and we needed something that could clean it up without slamming people for a problem we allowed to develop.

This does not forbid software that you use on your own system(s) which submits to accounts you own and created. Examples would be things that submit Tweets on a schedule, link your blog to Facebook, submit articles to directories, etc.

I also just had my first "false positive." [Read: screw-up in the process.] The description said automatic linking, but it referred to legit posting of appropriate content that would then be picked up from the site to which it was submitted by people who wanted it.

Paul

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debra

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yes, that's me. And yes, that exact text was approved by Allen.

This seemed the fairest way to deal with a situation that got completely out of hand. The place was starting to look blacker than my favorite Stetson, and we needed something that could clean it up without slamming people for a problem we allowed to develop.

Paul

Stetson? I'm so sorry...I had you peg'd as the Ole Spice kinda guy.

Correction made.:rolleyes:

Although I'm quilty for purchasing some of those questionable products and love most of them, I'm also, glad to see it toned down.

Ohhhhh....the temptations! Time to get back on the right track before I burn myself.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Debra,

Stetson? I'm so sorry...I had you peg'd as the Ole Spice kinda guy.

Yeah. Right. I refuse to wear any cologne you can buy at Walmart.

Paul
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  I refuse to wear any cologne you can buy at Walmart.
  
  I could never do that. I'm way too fond of college sophomores with daddy issues, and it goes a long way to smell like daddy used to before he left...
  
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  Tsnyder 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  I could never do that. I'm way too fond of college sophomores with daddy issues, and it goes a long way to smell like daddy used to before he left...
  
  See... this is why I read threads like this. Mundane as they
  are there's always a nugget in there somewhere... lol
  
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  bethrobinson 15 years ago
  
  I obviously haven't been reading TOS on some sites well enough and you've done some careful research into it.
  
  For my own education, could you clarify if these things are likely to violate the TOS of the relevant sites...
  
  Building linkwheels or pyramids using web 2.0 properties
  If no - then is paying someone else to do it a different case?
  Paying someone or using software to bookmark sites
  
  Thanks. Sorry if I'm being dense, because I know these probably fall under "no backlinking", but they hadn't been brought up specifically so I thought I'd ask.
  
  Beth
  
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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I also just had my first "false positive." [Read: screw-up in the process.] The description said automatic linking, but it referred to legit posting of appropriate content that would then be picked up from the site to which it was submitted by people who wanted it.

Paul

Paul, I truly appreciate your time for reading and replying back.

I am glad that my thread has been a "false positive".

Let me know if there is any edits to be made to my thread to prevent any false positive flags to be raised again.

PS: Only appropriate content is posted per client request. Refunds get processed immediately as soon as client requests that anytime. This service helps all my clients to rank well and there is 100's of positive reviews so far, no Negatives whatsoever.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Yousef,

You were NOT the false positive. Do not bump or re-post that thread. The false positive was related to press releases.

Paul

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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yousef,

You were NOT the false positive. Do not bump or re-post that thread. The false positive was related to press releases.

Paul

Hi Paul,

When are all these false positives that is claimed by WSO owner that this will do this or that. Buy this script and in 2 weeks you you will have 100k visitors doing nothing and the list goes on and on.

I have never setup a WSO but is mainly a WSO buyer but of late not interested any in buying WSO's as the claims are over inflated.

When you buy the WSO and complain about the WSO the WSO owner PM you and ask you to remove you complaints in the thread as it is affecting his sales. You ask for a refund as there claims are over inflated and then they get nasty with you and refuse a refund

I use to buy a lot of WSO's but have lost interest in WSO's as the value of WSO's have declined.

How can we address these problems as if I remember correctly if you buy a WSO the problems is between you and the WSO owner

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

When are all these false positives that is claimed by WSO owner that this will do this or that. Buy this script and in 2 weeks you you will have 100k visitors doing nothing and the list goes on and on.

See: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post2041917

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Clyde

15 years ago

Does this mean that any KW research software, be it Market Samurai, Micro Niche Finder, Keyword Elite, etc are prohibited from being sold on WarriorForum?

I guess that leaves us with the $3000/day e-book. Such a sad day.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Does this mean that any KW research software, be it Market Samurai, Micro Niche Finder, Keyword Elite, etc are prohibited from being sold on WarriorForum?

If it uses proxies, yes. That is exactly what it means. If you make a single exception, the rule is nearly impossible to enforce at all.

Paul
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- Clyde 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  If it uses proxies, yes. That is exactly what it means. If you make a single exception, the rule is nearly impossible to enforce at all.
  
  Paul
  
  I see but what if it's optional. (you don't have to use proxies for it to work 100%)
  
  Market Samurai for example doesn't use proxies but you can use one if you're paranoid about your privacy.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  I see but what if it's optional. (you don't have to use proxies for it to work 100%)
  
  Does not matter. Proxy support = forbidden here. Note: Here. If this is the only place you're selling something, it doesn't qualify as a WSO anyway.
  
  What you offer your existing customers or sell somewhere else is not my concern.
  
  Paul
  
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  R Hagel 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  What you offer your existing customers or sell somewhere else is not my concern.
  
  So far you're focusing on WSOs. I know, one step at a time. However, once you clean that up, will you be looking at things like sig files? I know there are folks who're currently advertising BH stuff in their sig files.
  
  Just curious about how far the broom will reach as you start cleaning up the forum. (And what types of things members should keep an eye out for to help out the mods.)
  
  Cheers,
  Becky
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Becky,
  
  So far you're focusing on WSOs. I know, one step at a time. However, once you clean that up, will you be looking at things like sig files?
  
  First the WSOs, then the Classifieds, the link section and Warriors For Hire. Sig files will be on a "See them and fix them" basis. Lowest current priority.
  
  Paul
  
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  Principal 15 years ago
  
  Thanks Paul. This was well overdue. I am very pleased to see the forum addressing these issues.
  
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Paul Myers 15 years ago

I guess that leaves us with the $3000/day e-book. Such a sad day.

One thing at a time. We'll deal with that stuff after we handle the TOS issue. There's a lot more in that section than just those BS "courses" and TOS-busters.

Paul
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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Paul does that now officially relate to Backlink packets and any kind of submissions using them even if its users themselves submitting the links? Does this put to an end to angela style backlink packets (for lack of a better description not referring to her specifically) and or any system that helps users submit them?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Paul does that now officially relate to Backlink packets and any kind of submissions using them even if its users themselves submitting the links?

Automated backlink software is out. Software that does legit submissions, like article directories and press releases to appropriate sites, is not, at least not based on just those things.

I'm not sure on the packets (lists) themselves, but if I'm informed they recommend or require automated submissions to work, they'll go away.

It's a process. The obvious stuff first, then we'll end up depending more and more on member reporting for the ones that don't show the violations in the sales copy. That will end up with pretty much every CPA-related offer and most of the Facebook things going, too.

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Thaks Paul. One last question on that then. Just to clarify what you are referring to by automation.

If you are aware of Roboform. Do you considered that automation software? It helps fill out forms does not break captcha and the person must manually use it (its not set and walk away).

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

If you are aware of Roboform. Do you considered that automation software? It helps fill out forms does not break captcha and the person must manually use it (its not set and walk away).

I don't see that as a problem. Software to help speed things up is good. Roboform is not intended to be used in the same way as the stuff I'm talking about. It's not even easy to use that way.

If it's designed to make it easy to do the kind of submissions that are likely to be abused, it will probably still get the boot. "Grey is the new black."

Paul

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If it's designed to make it easy to do the kind of submissions that are likely to be abused, it will probably still get the boot. "Grey is the new black."

Okay.. I guess that goes back to whether the packets themselves are likely to be abused. So since you stated you are not sure yet about the packets themselves I guess I will have to wait to find out how you rule on those. Thanks for the clarifications.
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Zach Booker 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That will end up with pretty much every CPA-related offer and most of the Facebook things going, too.

I'm a little confused at this.

Are you saying CPA products aren't going to be allowed?
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Zach,
  
  Are you saying CPA products aren't going to be allowed?
  
  No. I'm saying that most of the offers I've seen in that field involve abuse of other sites' TOS. So, most of them will eventually come down.
  
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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,Automated backlink software is out. Software that does legit submissions, like article directories and press releases to appropriate sites, is not, at least not based on just those things.

I'm not sure on the packets (lists) themselves, but if I'm informed they recommend or require automated submissions to work, they'll go away.

It's a process. The obvious stuff first, then we'll end up depending more and more on member reporting for the ones that don't show the violations in the sales copy. That will end up with pretty much every CPA-related offer and most of the Facebook things going, too.

Paul

Not to be an ass - but ... if you kill backlinking systems that violate a sites or many sites TOS - then you kill them all. If you use a computer to place a backlink [manually ] - that s still an automated process. If you take that to ... writing a piece of code that furthers the process of violating another sites TOS faster - thats clearly in rule #7.

Much of my stuff is clearly in the mods sites. I accept that. But I could just as easy change it to link packets and say here ya go - go sign up here x 1000 {manually by typing on your keyboard ]....and after they do that for 48 hrs - send an email to upsell the automation.

What would have been accomplished?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

What would have been accomplished?

Fewer crappy links getting posted on sites where they don't belong and aren't wanted.

That's the idea.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  What would have been accomplished?
  
  By the way... You're making an excellent argument for disallowing backlink packages, too. A really excellent argument...
  
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  4morereferrals 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  By the way... You're making an excellent argument for disallowing backlink packages, too. A really excellent argument...
  
  Paul
  
  Ohhh well, the way I read - and I took it literally ... if they violate a sites TOS - they were dead. Its pretty clear to me that a list of sites that cause or aid a bunch of users to go and signup for a spam link - thats a violation of 90% of the TOS's Angela, Paul, Me, 35,000 others ... cant sell that stuff. Whether a macro - roboform or full on desktop application is doing it - or your painstakingly typing in your spam manually on your keyboard - its a TOS violation 95% of the time. Its no different - its just slower.
  
  There's many examples in this forum of webmasters coming here and threatening to get the AG or Sheriff or Bobby the Bone Breaker after users of Angelas Pauls, and others who register a profile and leave links - and no contributions - and they most always cite - violation of Terms of Service.
  
  Im not making the case. It was already made - with a broad stroke of the brush. Im not complaining. But selling backlinking products like sites lists would piss off 99% of the owners of those sites if they knew their site was on it. Lets call a spade a spade - shall we?
  
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R Hagel

15 years ago

There goes my "Make $1 Million Dollars in the Next 36 Hours by Scraping Email Addresses" WSO.

***

On the plus side, I'm glad to see this clean up. When the dust settles, browsing the WSO forum should be a much more pleasant experience. Folks should be able to find the treasures a lot more easily (and sellers naturally will get more visibility for their solid offers once the weakest links are gone).

I like it.

Cheers,
Becky

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

On the plus side, I'm glad to see this clean up. When the dust settles, browsing the WSO forum should be a much more pleasant experience.

Yes Should help posts to stay on the front page longer as well.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Yes Should help posts to stay on the front page longer as well.

That remains to be seen. There have been some folks who refused to post WSOs because they didn't want to be seen around those kinds of offers. Some of the better graphics deals, for example.

There's dust, and there's a new vista. No clue what this one will look like.

I can tell you that the response from people who've gotten the warnings so far has been much more professional and civil than I would have expected. A few issues due to misunderstandings, but all sorted pleasantly.

I am suitably impressed.

Paul

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Robert Puddy

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,That remains to be seen. There have been some folks who refused to post WSOs because they didn't want to be seen around those kinds of offers. Some of the better graphics deals, for example.

There's dust, and there's a new vista. No clue what this one will look like.

I can tell you that the response from people who've gotten the warnings so far has been much more professional and civil than I would have expected. A few issues due to misunderstandings, but all sorted pleasantly.

I am suitably impressed.

Paul

Yep someone like me might just start a couple of WSO for decent products if I dont have to mix them in with some of the crap thats in there now.

Robert

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Paul Barrs

15 years ago

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LB

15 years ago

I'll just float this out there...are there any plans to stop nearly half the WSOs from making income claims like "Make $5000 per month"? (and then of course when you read the product the guy made $165 once on one day so by extrapolation...$5k in one month!) -_-

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I'll just float this out there...are there any plans to stop nearly half the WSOs from making income claims like "Make $5000 per month"? (and then of course when you read the product the guy made $165 once on one day so by extrapolation...$5k in one month!) -_-

That hasn't yet been decided. One thing at a time.

Paul

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Clyde 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That hasn't yet been decided. One thing at a time.

Paul

Paul, would it be OK if you don't delete the un-bump'ed WSO just so that people can use it as reference.
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MJ Sterling

15 years ago

A lot of the big names in marketing have offered products showing how they made $20+ million in 24+ hours, which many customers rave about and helped the big names to build solid repuations in the marketing community.

It makes sense that the smaller guys will also put their best foot forward and provide products that show others the same blueprint or business model they use.

The majority of these products do not promise or make guarantees that they buyer will receive the same kind of income after purchase. If they aren't making promises, but teaching methods that worked for them, then there's no harm.

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LB

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MJ Sterling

A lot of the big names in marketing have offered products showing how they made $20+ million in 24+ hours, which many customers rave about and helped the big names to build solid repuations in the marketing community.

It makes sense that the smaller guys will also put their best foot forward and provide products that show others the same blueprint or business model they use.

The majority of these products do not promise or make guarantees that they buyer will receive the same kind of income after purchase. If they aren't making promises, but teaching methods that worked for them, then there's no harm.

It's one thing to say, "I used this to make $150,00" but there are WSOs where the headline is "how to make..." "make..." "you can make..." Those are pretty bold statements and I don't think you'll find any big names doing that.

These are (and I'm painting with my broad brush here) some of the crappiest WSOs around and what this forum gets the biggest flak for everywhere. I think the perception of the WSO section has dropped because of it.

But Paul has said they are dealing with the other stuff first...so we'll wait and see.

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MJ Sterling

15 years ago

Originally Posted by LB

It's one thing to say, "I used this to make $150,00" but there are WSOs where the headline is "how to make..." "make..." "you can make..." Those are pretty bold statements and I don't think you'll find any big names doing that.

These are (and I'm painting with my broad brush here) some of the crappiest WSOs around and what this forum gets the biggest flak for everywhere. I think the perception of the WSO section has dropped because of it.

But Paul has said they are dealing with the other stuff first...so we'll wait and see.

I agree, telling someone they will make X amount isn't right. There's a big difference in sharing how YOU made X amount. One makes a promise, the other one doesn't.

I have seen guru's stating they made X amount in X hours in their sales videos. Frank Kern has done it and a few others.

Personally I think all WSOs should carry disclaimers.

But still, what you and I might find worthless, someone else might find incredibly valuable.

Comes down to experience maybe.

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rhinocl

15 years ago

If some one says they made a million dollars in 24 hours most people think, "I'm at least 1/10th as good as him so I'll make 100,000. Almost every offer has a statement that your earnings may differ. We expect those as they are necessary to keep people out of legal trouble. But we buy based on the ad's statement of what the seller made-so it should be true.

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shabit87

15 years ago

Originally Posted by rhinocl

If some one says they made a million dollars in 24 hours most people think, "I'm at least 1/10th as good as him so I'll make 100,000. Almost every offer has a statement that your earnings may differ. We expect those as they are necessary to keep people out of legal trouble. But we buy based on the ad's statement of what the seller made-so it should be true.

Isn't this always the case. I'm glad you said something. I personally never buy a product expecting the same results as the seller. I'm usually buying info products to learn and see how I can apply the info to my own marketing methods. Thanks for saying something rhinocl

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Originally Posted by LB

I'll just float this out there...are there any plans to stop nearly half the WSOs from making income claims like "Make $5000 per month"? (and then of course when you read the product the guy made $165 once on one day so by extrapolation...$5k in one month!) -_-

That's what i call the "DP effect". On DP forum, i see plenty of newbie clickbank vendors who "somehow" managed it to put a product (ebook etc.) up on clickbank.

They start to sell the product. Let's say they would make their very first sale after 20 hops. As soon as they get their first sale they go on the forum and make a blatant statement "product converts 1:20"...

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James Campbell 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

Yep someone like me might just start a couple of WSO for decent products if I dont have to mix them in with some of the crap thats in there now.

Robert

Would have hit the thanks button, but that seems to have disappeared along with the search function.

I do hope you start offering some great deals via WSO

Best Regards,
James
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Gary King 15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

There goes my "Make $1 Million Dollars in the Next 36 Hours by Scraping Email Addresses" WSO.

Cheers,
Becky

This looks good! Just ordered.

Paypal Transaction ID: 4635187 663523

Didn't receive the download link! Please PM asap.
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J Bold

15 years ago

What about backlink packets such as the hugely popular Angela's backlinks? Or the one by the Donahue guy? At least the second one does not seem to follow your new rules. Unless I'm wrong, would have to check out the service again if I can find it.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

What about backlink packets such as the hugely popular Angela's backlinks?

Answered in post 21.

Paul
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J Bold

15 years ago

Ok, I understand. You said you're not sure, but automation is frowned upon unless it's for article directories or press releases.

Not sure if you have an answer for this, yet, but let me be more specific. How about a backlinking service that gets you signature links from forum profiles? Do you consider this a violation of the TOS of a site? For example, if a WSO is a service that gets you 1000 links from different forum profiles, hard to know the TOS of every site used in the service. Also hard to know if the backlinker would use automation to do it for you, if he/she would not clearly say. From what you are writing in the PMs and the new Rule #7, seems you are possibly saying these will not be accepted anymore?

Note, there's a distinction between just getting the packets only in a WSO and doing them yourself and the service. Can you answer for both, or is this still not clear, yet?

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by redicelander

For example, if a WSO is a service that gets you 1000 links from different forum profiles, hard to know the TOS of every site used in the service. Also hard to know if the backlinker would use automation to do it for you, if he/she would not clearly say.

I'll leave it to Paul to answer your question but as to the seller not clearly saying - 1000 backlinks are almost never submitted manually even when they say they do and it would be quite a feat to keep track on 1,000 backlink sites and their TOS. I've found it somewhat possible to keep up on couple hundred plus but couldn't imagine upwards of a thousand or more.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

How about a backlinking service

No backlinking services. Manual, automatic, psychic or otherwise.

Paul

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

No backlinking services. Manual, automatic, psychic or otherwise.

Paul

Hmmmm. Psychic backlinking?...... Wouldn't need a WSO for that. Thanks for the tip
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Azfi

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

No backlinking services. Manual, automatic, psychic or otherwise.

Paul

So any Senuke Submission Services will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Azfi,

So any Senuke Submission Services will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

It uses proxies and it spams web 2.0 websites, as well as profile spams. It single handedly revised the way the Social Networking Software Platform | Online Social Media | KickApps - KickApps platform and its developers handle all outbound links on the profiles, blogs and photo galleries.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Azfi,I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

It uses proxies and it spams web 2.0 websites, as well as profile spams.

Thank you. That's what I needed to know. Those will also be barred.

Paul
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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Azfi,I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

SENuke can do the following:

(1) create email accounts on Yahoo, etc. for you to use;
(2) create accounts on the major social bookmarking sites;
(3) create accounts on the major article directories;
(4) create accounts on the major RSS directories;
(5) create accounts on something like 200 forum/community sites;
(6) spin/post content/links to #2-5;
(7) ping all of the links/pages created above.

Basically, its a pretty good tool

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Jill Carpenter 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Basically, its a pretty good tool

lol, no wonder it has "Nuke" in the name.
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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Azfi,I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

Some reasons I'm sure you won't like SENuke services -

- Supports proxies
- Automated profile spam
- Automated captcha breaking

I can give you more details if you need 'em but I imagine that'll suffice for you.

Cheers,

Andy

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Paul Barrs

15 years ago

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Caliban,

Precisely. This isn't unique to "a group like this," either, unless by "like this" you mean a group of people.

I mean a group like this. The WF has characteristics that are unlike any other, just as any other established group will. That does not make your point any less valid, of course.

As someone who's been very seriously studying that subject for a very long time, I have a certain perspective on it, but that perspective always comes with a huge disclaimer of "these are generalities and your specific group may not fit them."

Been doing the electronic moderating thing for 23 years. Plus more "academic" study of the subject. Some things are consistent across the board. Others change with the group, and some change with time.

That aside, I would say that, as much as anyone, I am something of an expert on the particular niche called "Warrior Forum."

Paul,

Yeah. I've seen a few copies of Mike's email. That's between him and Allen. Allen knows what's going on.

Backlinks as bonuses would be pushing my buttons, if it looked like an attempt to get around the rules...

Paul

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Caliban,I mean a group like this. The WF has characteristics that are unlike any other, just as any other established group will. That does not make your point any less valid, of course.Been doing the electronic moderating thing for 23 years. Plus more "academic" study of the subject. Some things are consistent across the board. Others change with the group, and some change with time.

That aside, I would say that, as much as anyone, I am something of an expert on the particular niche called "Warrior Forum."

Paul,

Yeah. I've seen a few copies of Mike's email. That's between him and Allen. Allen knows what's going on.

Backlinks as bonuses would be pushing my buttons, if it looked like an attempt to get around the rules...

Paul

Not only that but there's a backlinking service that's currently joined the board plus a gaming Google Maps offer.

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J Bold

15 years ago

So any backlinking services in the Warrior for Hire section will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

So any backlinking services in the Warrior for Hire section will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

We'll get there. One thing at a time. The smart folks will start looking for other advertising venues for those offers, though, yes.

Paul
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R Hagel

15 years ago

Many thanks, Paul.

Becky

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Fernando Veloso

15 years ago

Good news, Thanks for that!

And Paul, Great copy in the OP.

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dyadvisor

15 years ago

Why are WSO posters allowed to remove the poster's remarks so freely? Sometimes they point out why future buyers should be alert to certain FACTS about misstatements and keep the integrity higher? More sales?

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Heidi White

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dyadvisor

Why are WSO posters allowed to remove the poster's remarks so freely? Sometimes they point out why future buyers should be alert to certain FACTS about misstatements and keep the integrity higher? More sales?

Yeah - it makes the buyers job of performing Due Diligence pretty darn hard when negative feedback in the WSO thread can be edited out by the WSO poster.

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Jill Carpenter 15 years ago

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

Yeah - it makes the buyers job of performing Due Diligence pretty darn hard when negative feedback in the WSO thread can be edited out by the WSO poster.

WSO posters pay for the advertising space. There are times of negative comments from people who did not even buy the product.

The WSO poster needs to go through the help desk to get things removed from the thread - so I would hope when things get removed they have stated a good case for it.
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- Tina Golden 15 years ago
  
  Yeah - it makes the buyers job of performing Due Diligence pretty darn hard when negative feedback in the WSO thread can be edited out by the WSO poster.
  
  Just to be clear, the poster can NOT edit out negative feedback. They can report it if it is breaking the rules and a mod must remove it.
  
  However, I have seen instances where it appears that the thread creator may have lied in order to get feedback removed. If your negative feedback is removed and you have proof that you purchased the product, I suggest opening a support ticket yourself. If this is really happening, I'm pretty sure that the powers that be would want to learn of it.
  
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Aira Bongco

15 years ago

I think Paul's point here is that they cannot directly evaluate the value of services such as blog commenting. It is a good thing for it takes care of the WSO buyers. Maybe you can just ask Paul to move your thread to the Warriors for Hire forum.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I think Paul's point here is that they cannot directly evaluate the value of services such as blog commenting. It is a good thing for it takes care of the WSO buyers. Maybe you can just ask Paul to move your thread to the Warriors for Hire forum.

Nope. They'll get cleaned out of there as soon as I've got a decent handle on the WSO situation.

Offers that violate the TOS of other sites are not going to be welcome here. Get used to it. Find other offers or find somewhere else to sell them.

Paul

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Clyde

15 years ago

Hey Paul, just found these two WSO's that violate Rule #7. They're both by peteinoz and he just bump'ed them.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...1-c-video.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...nts-382-a.html

All of the software by the same seller automates creating profile backlinks and violate other site's TOS.

You can also ban the following from being bump'ed:
1. SEO Link Dominator.
2. All the link packets.
3. All RSS Submission software that submits to other people site.

Also I think you should ban all autoblogging software as well, it's not within the TOS of the sites they fetched from.

There's also another WSO by jayanuaria that teaches people how to spam Twitter without getting banned. It's a software called TwitAttack Lite.

Here's another one by Sean Donahoe called Backlink Booster, it's a bookmarking software (againts rule) combined with mass RSS submission, link here:
http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-vanishes.html

kthxbai.

p/s: I'm a bit distressed about the whole situation as well but I guess it would be OK if all is fair play.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...1-c-video.html

He was warned. He's been banned for two weeks. Next time is much longer.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...nts-382-a.html

RSS is an opt-in system. Explain to me, precisely, how this violates anyone's TOS. If I missed something, I'll be happy to warn them.

Paul
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jazbo

15 years ago

My personal opinion is that if you takes cursory glance through the WSO forum and then deduct the ones that will not conform to "rule 7", then the WF is going to take about a 60-70% income hit from WSO's war room signups initially.

The basic rule 7 seems to be it must not contravene another sites TOS or automate process that ends with something being placed on another site and must not use proxies. How will that be investigated and policed fairly, as it sounds like a minefield?

I totally agree that there needs to be a clean up of the more dubious WSO claims, but I do feel that quite a few legit things may take a hit as well.

Paul also mentions an automated link service someone has in the sig, and to remove it or get a temp ban. So does this mean people cannot mention things excluded by this rule 7 in signatures and the SEO forum as well?

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

Hey Paul, just found these two WSO's that violate Rule #7. They're both by peteinoz and he just bump'ed them.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...1-c-video.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...nts-382-a.html

All of the software by the same seller automates creating profile backlinks and violate other site's TOS.

You can also ban the following from being bump'ed:
1. SEO Link Dominator.
2. All the link packets.
3. All RSS Submission software that submits to other people site.

Also I think you should ban all autoblogging software as well, it's not within the TOS of the sites they fetched from.

There's also another WSO by jayanuaria that teaches people how to spam Twitter without getting banned. It's a software called TwitAttack Lite.

Here's another one by Sean Donahoe called Backlink Booster, it's a bookmarking software (againts rule) combined with mass RSS submission, link here:
http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-vanishes.html

kthxbai.

p/s: I'm a bit distressed about the whole situation as well but I guess it would be OK if all is fair play.

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Mountainmotorman

15 years ago

Okay Paul so tell me HOW I VIOLATE RULE #7 with a company that I own and sites that I own and offer the ability to allow people to join as a membership on MY PRIVATE NETWORK! Pleas tell me how that does not fit into Post #21 and how that is in violation of anything?

Listen, I do understand that you need to keep controls. But, the facts are still, It is MY PRIVATE NETWORK and not some Xrummer or SENuke blasts.... It is not on other people's sites.... It is not spamming the net with crap--- It is my sites and these are mainly CPA marketers that need to get there articles on MY PRIVATE DIRECTORIES in my private network... It CLEARLY does not fall into any violation of a TOS and yet, you want me to stop bumping the thread?

Please tell me that the reason is simply, this is YOUR PLAYGROUND and you no longer want my business---- You got enough of it and now I have to leave..... That is exactly what your telling me.... Gee the $50 grand I have laid out to buy the sites and more to build it is nothing.....

Not for nothing but, I am starting a PPC campaign and I am not just using WF for customers..... Though I must admit the launch was a success here...

Please answer it clearly and not with BS---- I am a big boy and can take it---

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Okay Paul so tell me HOW I VIOLATE RULE #7

Look through the previous posts. It's real clear: No backlinking services. Now, when you get done with your vacation, learn to be civil. I am not going to debate this with everyone who thinks they have an exception.

I've seen your posts and heard your nonsense, Brian. You're not going to get away with that crap in here. And if you try that "I own the Internet" telephone harassment and threats on me or anyone else here, you're going to find out how little credit anyone with sense gives you.

Paul
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Paul Barrs

15 years ago

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Clyde

15 years ago

Originally Posted by paulbarrs

Geez Guys -

All I can say further on the topic is this...

If *I* owned a shop, I'd sure as hell be the one who decided what was being sold in that shop. No ifs, no buts, - done deal.

End of story.

Alan owns the shop. Paul is (one of) the shop keepers.

The whole WSO section is going to be bucket-loads better once we get it tidied up. It's just unfortunate that a few perhaps legit offers may also fall by the wayside. No probs, go sell 'em somewhere else; if they are *good* they'll still sell.

...

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

Haha. WOW. Really? You're comparing a shop owner's right to choose what's being sold in his shop to North Korea??

If this was North Korea, the GOVERNMENT would decide what could and could not be sold. So to respond to your "free and open market", Allen's taking advantage of just that - by choosing not to allow others to sell BlueFart or other unscrupulous products on his forum, as he is Free and Open to Choose to do so.

As a buyer, you can buy whatever you want. Go nuts with it if it makes you happy. You're just not going to get BlueFart products in the Warrior Forum - in case you haven't noticed, the Warrior Forum gets such a high reputation because people try to keep things Clean and Ethical - that doesn't exactly mix with BlueFart. If that's your bag, go elsewhere - you're Free to Choose to do that.

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Nigel Greaves

15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

Good bye old WF.

Wrong! It's a return to the old WF, the one which existed to help each other with high quality, ethical products. The fact that you only joined the forum so recently is probably the reason you think the current load of cr*p is the "old" WF.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Wrong! It's a return to the old WF, the one which existed to help each other with high quality, ethical products. The fact that you only joined the forum so recently is probably the reason you think the current load of cr*p is the "old" WF.

Pay attention, folks. Nigel actually remembers the "old WF."

Paul

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

GeorgR,

Yes, this will affect many types of offers. We knew that when we made the decision. Or, more precisely, when we talked about it before Allen made the decision. And I am now leaning toward banning the link lists, along with the services.

peteinoz pushed that a long way, when he bumped a thread that he'd been asked not to bump. Yes, he may have made an innocent mistake. That's likely, in fact. He may have bumped before doing customer service, which includes checking PMs.

Small foul, short term penalty. I'm not looking to pound good people. But we will get rid of this stuff.

Been there, done that. Got the callouses.

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Done. Link packets are out, too. I will be warning those folks along with the other barred services and offers.

The process continues...

Paul
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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

GeorgR,

And I am now leaning toward banning the link lists, along with the services.

peteinoz pushed that a long way, when he bumped a thread that he'd been asked not to bump. Yes, he may have made an innocent mistake. That's likely, in fact. He may have bumped before doing customer service, which includes checking PMs.

Paul

Paul,

I dont see how you can ban some backlink related services, products, offers etc and not all - Angela's Lists Pauls Lists and so many others. They are used to violate TOS.

No offense to Pete In Oz - I think he's a great guy - but fair is fair and violations of TOS are violations of TOS. Using automated tools to PUMP your rss feeds [ aka SPAM them] to RSS aggregators is most likely a violation of their TOS. What am I missing?

If we're not playing the exception game ... think it needs to apply to ALL.

All Im asking for is fairness. I respect the decision either way and understand the reasons, and am not against it if thats whats best for the warrior forum. But it truly needs to apply evenly and fairly - regardless of one's tenure or perceived "integrity"

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halfpoint

15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Paul,

I dont see how you can ban some backlink related services, products, offers etc and not all - Angela's Lists Pauls Lists and so many others. They are used to violate TOS.

No offense to Pete In Oz - I think he's a great guy - but fair is fair and violations of TOS are violations of TOS. Using automated tools to PUMP your rss feeds [ aka SPAM them] to RSS aggregators is most likely a violation of their TOS. What am I missing?

If we're not playing the exception game ... think it needs to apply to ALL.

All Im asking for is fairness. I respect the decision either way and understand the reasons, and am not against it if thats whats best for the warrior forum. But it truly needs to apply evenly and fairly - regardless of one's tenure or perceived "integrity"

Steve,

See the post at the top of this page;

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Done. Link packets are out, too. I will be warning those folks along with the other barred services and offers.

The process continues...

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

But it truly needs to apply evenly and fairly - regardless of one's tenure or perceived "integrity"

Excuse me?

My first pass through, I read everything on the first 2.5 pages that looked like it might fall into the backlinking category, including WSOs from other moderators. Some of the people who were asked not to bump or re-post offers have been here a long time and have great reputations, including some that I happen to personally like and think of highly.

I've been quite clear that this is a process, not an instantaneous act. And that I will make mistakes. Leaving the opportunity to fix those is one reason I'm not starting to delete anything yet. When the dust settles, I may spend the cycles to consider letting the offers back in that involve people selling links on sites they own personally. I'm not clear on how I'd verify that, though, which is the problem at the moment.

Contrary to what people seem to think, this isn't about Google. Not from my perspective. It never has been. It's about all those blogs and forums and directories that are getting abused by these actions.

I couldn't care less about Google. They're big people. They can take care of themselves.

Using automated tools to PUMP your rss feeds [aka SPAM them] to RSS aggregators is most likely a violation of their TOS. What am I missing?

Specifics. I asked this of someone previously: Show me the TOS that forbids it. I've never seen anything like that in the terms of an RSS aggregator. Granted, I've only read a couple dozen of them, and I could have missed it.

Show me.

Paul
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- 4morereferrals 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Excuse me?
  
  Paul
  
  I apologize if I articulated something in a manner that was smart ass'd or impolite. Not my intention I can assure you.
  
  I missed your post up above about the link packets now being seen as similar rule #7 violations.
  
  The comment about other's perceived tenure or reps was not directed at your tenure or rep - but other warriors who will have offers in violation of the rule #7. I understand fully its a process and not an instant clean out.
  
  On the specifics of an rss agg sites tos - I will dig into it further. I mention it as Ive hit a warning on one of them with a macro that automated the process of adding my blog's rss feeds to them. Like you Im not to sure I have the cycle's to go read their TOS.
  
  Actually I think - I'll just roll with the flow .. and shut my yap trap and move on about business. The links packets issues are resolved.
  
  I too have a "network" of sorts I moderate etc .. Id like to see how the selling of access to ones "sites" unfolds.
  
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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

I don't think you have to worry about your "cred" here anymore.

rofl

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Michael,

I don't think you have to worry about your "cred" here anymore.

I'm waiting for MountainMotorMouth and unlimitedsubmissives to take it offline. I'm betting they're not as good at phreaking as they are at IP spoofing or proxying.

MMM might benefit from getting the chance to test his prison phone service from the other side of The Wall.

Paul

PS: Why did I just hear a snippet of Pink Floyd?

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,I'm waiting for MountainMotorMouth and unlimitedsubmissives to take it offline. I'm betting they're not as good at phreaking as they are at IP spoofing or proxying.

MMM might benefit from getting the chance to test his prison phone service from the other side of The Wall.

Paul

PS: Why did I just hear a snippet of Pink Floyd?

Well that's unfortunate that people would go so far as to turn it into a real game of federal crime using phones for harassment.

I guess I just don't understand why they don't see it as an opportunity to respond to the "hole" that has been created in their market. The Warrior Forum has decided that certain products and services are no longer welcome.

So why not create their own marketspace, their own forums, and attract likeminded customers and vendors to their own bazaar, and just go on down the road like merry bandits?

ps... don't envy you in the moderator seat. BTDT.... got the t-shirt. Never again.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Michael,

Well that's unfortunate that people would go so far as to turn it into a real game of federal crime using phones for harassment.

It won't be anything new. I've had people call my house at 4 AM making death threats. One twit was stunned when I knew who he was. Now I don't even need to know. I have a "friend" who works for the phone company...

So why not create their own marketspace, their own forums, and attract likeminded customers and vendors to their own bazaar, and just go on down the road like merry bandits?

You mean like the guy who posted earlier that they should use their alleged SEO talents to get traffic from search engines? THAT boy will do well from this. All the idiots who're whining are just proving they haven't a clue.

ps... don't envy you in the moderator seat. BTDT.... got the t-shirt. Never again.

Spent 6 months cleaning the email spammers out of here, way back in the day. These noodges are cake and ice cream compared to that crowd.

Paul

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XFactor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,It won't be anything new. I've had people call my house at 4 AM making death threats. One twit was stunned when I knew who he was. Now I don't even need to know. I have a "friend" who works for the phone company...You mean like the guy who posted earlier that they should use their alleged SEO talents to get traffic from search engines? THAT boy will do well from this. All the idiots who're whining are just proving they haven't a clue.Spent 6 months cleaning the email spammers out of here, way back in the day. These noodges are cake and ice cream compared to that crowd.

Paul

I'm amazed that you have the stamina for these individuals Paul. I've
attracted a couple of stalkers myself and will never understand their
mentality.

- John

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

John,

I'm amazed that you have the stamina for these individuals Paul. I've attracted a couple of stalkers myself and will never understand their mentality.

I understand it. It disgusts me, but I understand it. I've dealt with a lot of them over 23 years of this stuff.

Doesn't take stamina. It's all just details. Allen is the only one here who has the faintest idea how "effective" I can be at this stuff. And that's only a faint idea.

And I have a very long memory.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Derek,
  
  (I'm curious how old I was when you joined)
  
  11 or 12. I joined in 97 or 98.
  
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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,It won't be anything new. I've had people call my house at 4 AM making death threats. One twit was stunned when I knew who he was.
Paul

My goodness that is sad. Very sorry its come to that. Thats totally ridiculous.

I'm no kiss up. Ive disgreed with things but fair is fair. I can entirely see where it would be impossible to police each WSO and know what is in each of them and yes backlinking packages and services have the look now of the inappropriate under all circumstances. Warrior forums didn't do that. Collectively thats the backlinks niche sellers fault.

A rule is a rule and as of this morning even my sig is gone (I voluntarily removed it) and you know what?

As unbelievable as it may sound. I'm glad. I only wanted it to be spelt out and across the board with no favoritism and thats exactly what I am seeing. (Kudos Paul I was next to sure I would get slapped and others would be let off the hook. Includng packets tells me you are really serious because some pretty popular people just got news I never ever thought they would get).

I think it will make for an entirely different atmosphere on Warriors and now people can talk about white hat SEO without being laughed out of the forum (I can point you to threads where I got attacked just for bringing it up).

So from a guy that sold a packet heres my call to others. Its just an opportunity to show that you can do SEO. Why get upset? You must have some other SEO skills that are White hat. This is an opportunity to expand into areas that I know I have always wanted to go in on warriors.

Now without the self backlinking services people might actually give those white hat techniques a try (like non controversial linkbait/ link magnets that are all aceptable SEO even by Google's standards). I think thats a good thing. It builds a more long term business going forward. Instead of getting upset lets see those SEO skills and creativity without the grey hat.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Now without the self backlinking services people might actually give those white hat techniques a try (like non controversial linkbait/ link magnets that are all aceptable SEO even by Google's standards). I think thats a good thing. It builds a more long term business going forward. Instead of getting upset lets see those SEO skills and creativity without the grey hat.

Mike, this is actually a chance for people who really know SEO (not me

)
to not only clean up with their own sites but to teach others how to do
this themselves.

SEO has been one of the areas where I am sorely lacking in skills and admit
it freely. My knowledge would be considered basic even by 2003 standards.

So you SEO experts...here's your chance to teach me something without
me having to worry about getting sandboxed by Google and banned from
every social bookmarking and networking site on the planet.

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So you SEO experts...here's your chance to teach me something without
me having to worry about getting sandboxed by Google and banned from
every social bookmarking and networking site on the planet.

Steve you seem to do just fine without it

. I don't want to derail the thread but given some people are getting so offended and seem to want to jump off a bridge maybe I can talk them down.

There are many ways of getting backlinks without just sitting there and hoping it happens. Providing a resource that people want and distributing it is totally white hat and effective. I can get a hundred backlinks in a day all white hat by providing a resource. One resource I've shared in the SEO section is what I have done with themes (buy unique ones and distribute them to sites that cover new themes - theres tons of them). A few people have tried it and loved it. Totally white hat. the sites WANT and exist to share the resource.

Most People though didn't want to hear about it while they could pay a guy $17 for 20,000 low quality links with a push of a button. The thousands sounded too much sexier. Thats just one way. add a little creative juice and there are a number of other techniques.

Also Keep an eye on Wordpress 3.0 Steve. Been playing with the possibilities and there will be some killer White Hat strategies emerging from it. So no need for anyone to jump off the bridge. Just get creative and stay white hat and you will be fine. In fact white hat changes your perpective. You are more open to building a business not just loking for a button to push.

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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Paul, I will abide with the rules and will never bump or repost that thread again per your request.

I have had great clients from here and I must admit that Warriors have the greatest mentalities and have proved to be the most professional when it comes to communication. ( I used to be a member of 10's of marketing forums out there offering similar services )

If there is any way I can have my WSO edited or changed in a way to make it legit or bumpable, please let me know, I definitely would love to continue business over here.

I can even get 100 signatures from Warriors from here to support this thread if that will help. So far there are 100's of happy clients, 100's of positive reviews to prove that this does work, 100'+ bumps for that thread and 100's of days I spent happily monitoring and replying back to this thread.

Let me know if there is any single chance... I definitely will give it a shot no matter what!

Thanks for your precious time.

PS: This will be my last post regarding this topic. I don't want to start getting on your nerves, Paul!

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

If there is any way I can have my WSO edited or changed in a way to make it legit or bumpable, please let me know, I definitely would love to continue business over here.

I can even get 100 signatures from Warriors from here to support this thread if that will help. So far there are 100's of happy clients, 100's of positive reviews to prove that this does work, 100'+ bumps for that thread and 100's of days I spent happily monitoring and replying back to this thread.

Let me know if there is any single chance... I definitely will give it a shot no matter what!

This is just my opinion...

However, if you think that merely changing the wording of your WSO -- or getting signatures to prove it works -- is going to make your WSO acceptable on the WF, then you're not quite understanding why this rule is in place and why it's now being enforced.

It's not about your customers and whether they're satisfied or not. It's not about whether your customers are getting results. It's about what your customers are doing to other peoples' sites.

Cheers,
Becky

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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

This is just my opinion...

However, if you think that merely changing the wording of your WSO -- or getting signatures to prove it works -- is going to make your WSO acceptable on the WF, then you're not quite understanding why this rule is in place and why it's now being enforced.

It's not about your customers and whether they're satisfied or not. It's not about whether your customers are getting results. It's about what your customers are doing to other peoples' sites.

Cheers,
Becky

Becky, I get the point now.

Thanks for clearing that out and yes it is true that building up link juice might not work out for the other side's favor (The blog/domain commented on). It's just how this service worked out.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

If there is any way I can have my WSO edited or changed in a way to make it legit or bumpable, please let me know, I definitely would love to continue business over here.

You appear to have many offers. Why would you not be able to continue an ebook writing service?

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Kay King 15 years ago

Even though WSO's didn't exist back in '05

Yes they did - they just didn't slap you in the face with outlandish promises. In 2005 they were often discounts on top products that were selling great on the member's own website and offered for a limited time at a special price here.

There's at least one who was 5 when I joined.

I think there's more than one - and a few stuck at that emotional age, too.:rolleyes:

kay
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Paul Barrs 15 years ago

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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Paul,
  
  It's the old WF that many of us want back. You havn't yet been around to even *know* what the old WF was.
  
  Come on, man. There are members who were 8 and 10 years old when you and I got started here. It's not their fault they're young.
  
  Paul
  
  Edit: There's at least one who was 5 when I joined.
  
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Karen Blundell

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,I'm waiting for MountainMotorMouth and unlimitedsubmissives to take it offline. I'm betting they're not as good at phreaking as they are at IP spoofing or proxying.

MMM might benefit from getting the chance to test his prison phone service from the other side of The Wall.

Paul

PS: Why did I just hear a snippet of Pink Floyd?

speaking of spoofing...I've been through enough crap with people email spoofing so I had to learn fast about certain server settings that I can implement...but it can get old real fast when you work real hard to build up sites only to have your stuff stolen, including your email address!

I'm so glad steps have been taken to eliminate WSO products which advocate "scraping" content from other people's sites without their permission ie; auto blogging, etc...It's so annoying that people think just cause you have an RSS feed that somewhow they can just put that content on their sites and claim it as their own.

And the backlink packets were always a temptation to me, but I never bought and there's a reason: Why pay for something when you can get all the natural backlinks you want by simply giving away something free with a link back to your site?

I think it's about time the rubbish is removed from the WSO section. Kudos to the powers that be who are taking steps to clean this place up.

Hope you all have a great Sunday. It feels like summer here in Niagara...how can I possibly complain about anything today...lol?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

Bye. You get 2 weeks to develop your cred. Elsewhere.

I've been civil, and I've been fair. I am not, however, going to play this game.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

Funny ... some of you don't get this at all. Someone wants to run a Whitehat forum and over time, the products being sold have been increasingly black hat. If you owned a forum that was constantly under attack by spammers, you'd probably recognize the need for TOS and you'd have a better appreciation for the TOS of other sites.

You probably have no idea the man hours it takes to keep a forum free of the scum that try to fill it up with spam. It's the same with any other site, social networking, blogs, forums, etc. They are constantly under attack by low life spammers who don't care one bit about degrading the property they are attacking with their spam.

If you own a site, and appreciate the hard work it takes to keep it free of these scumbags, how could you in good conscience, allow these same spammers to profit in your forum from the very same "tools" being used to degrade and attack other sites? Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Somebody needs to bring the thank you button back, because there have
been some excellent replies in this thread that deserve that and more,
especially the gentleman who gets it even though this is going to hurt a lot
of people's incomes.

These are the days I'm proud to be a Warrior.

This is what makes me want to keep coming back to this forum.

Paul, I know I'm a nobody around here, but if you want my help with
anything, you have my number...just let me know. I'm here if you need me.

Thanks to the members who obviously saw the "Tearful Indian" ad.

You get it.

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A Bary

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Somebody needs to bring the thank you button back, because there have
been some excellent replies in this thread that deserve that and more,
especially the gentleman who gets it even though this is going to hurt a lot
of people's incomes.

These are the days I'm proud to be a Warrior.

This is what makes me want to keep coming back to this forum.

Paul, I know I'm a nobody around here, but if you want my help with
anything, you have my number...just let me know. I'm here if you need me.

Thanks to the members who obviously saw the "Tearful Indian" ad.

You get it.

Steven, thanks for this post, can't say it better

And Paul, your efforts are a big and BRAVE move, I believe it wasn't easy for you and Allen to make such decisions, but these regulations are what exactly this forum needs..

Thanks for the great efforts, I wish I could help, but I am confident you and other great mods here well do it perfectly.

A Bary

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Zach Booker 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Zach,No. I'm saying that most of the offers I've seen in that field involve abuse of other sites' TOS. So, most of them will eventually come down.

Paul

Got ya.

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

Good bye old WF.

You've been here how long, again?

Oh yeah...under a month.

lol
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Zach,
  
  You've been here how long, again?
  
  Oh yeah...under a month.
  
  lol
  
  Careful about assuming anything around the dates in a user profile. Dude could have been here for years under another name and been banned. There's more of that going on than you might think.
  
  Paul
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  "Gee look guys - see me steal ... look at me loook at me arent I cool ... I cant make my own ... anything - but I can rip off from others, please give me "a rep +"""
  
  Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
  
  I believe your assessment of them as pathetic is quite generous. That said, there's not much to be done about some of them. I've gotten a few shut down, but they just move to less discerning hosts and upload it all again. Others start with hosts they know won't bother, or use services that can be worked around.
  
  Scum will be scum, ya know? Unless, of course, you can get a face-to-face with them...
  
  Paul
  
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  Nathan Alexander 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
  
  Other great line: "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
  
  Vasquez: "No, have you?"
  
  Thanks Paul, LOVE that movie.
  
  In line with the thread...as someone who doesn't know what all the hats mean, it'll be nice to have less stuff to think I supposed to learn about.
  
  Thanks for the work you guys do.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Nathan,
  
  Other great line: "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
  
  Vasquez: "No, have you?"
  
  Thanks Paul, LOVE that movie.
  
  It was either that line or "Power up the orbital nuclear death ray platform," and I'm betting there aren't 3 people in this whole group who'd know the source on that one.
  
  Paul
  
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LB

15 years ago

When this forum started many years ago being a "warrior" was a mindset. Warriors wouldn't spam up other peoples' sites without permission just to get links. Now it's become almost accepted practice. I'm glad to see the change although I can appreciate that there will be some fallout with some legit offers.

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Kay King 15 years ago

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

I'm sorry - but 6 weeks as a member, no name and 4 WSOs isn't "cred" - it's taking advantage of an opportunity.

Nothing wrong with that unless you start demanding your "rights" on a site owned by someone else.

Most here will wait and see what the changes are and how they are personally affected and then will go with the new rules. The WF will be better for buyers and sellers and those who can't deal with it will take their shovels and go dig for $$ elsewhere.

Fair enough.
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Kella Bella

15 years ago

Well darn Paul n Becky now I gotta scrap that psychic backlink blog I have been working on for two months since I joined and just set up on wordpress. Please don't say I shouldn't have done that cause remember I'm psychic n I already know what you are going to say!

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David Mcalorum

15 years ago

I am Paul Myers coaching student.

He is a awesome guy, great teacher, and he clearly knows his stuff.

I would suggest you listen to what he says.

-Dave

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Dave,

I am Paul Myers coaching student.

Wrong Paul Myers. I have no coaching students.

Paul
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yommys01

15 years ago

Does the law apply to Angela type of backlink services?

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Paul,

i am little puzzled now about the "no backlink services" rule since this is new to me. I quickly checked the WSO rules and didn't see this mentioned.

I saw the "No TOS violation" in rule #7. You might want to clarify this and add to the rules exactly what is not allowed so we know what is not permissable. As i take it this this would include all forms of "link submission" as well as whatever kind of link building "service"...profile building, auto social bookmarking and so forth? I am afraid this would affect MANY, many WSOs.

And..let's not forget CPA e-whoring...oh, well...this is a can of worms here....

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nossie

15 years ago

Its just some people have invested big money for selling stuff in this forum (like me) and now they get to hear "sorry you cannot do it anymore". I can understand people feel a sad about it.

I guess we need to move on and adapt

I can understand the decision though, it would be a much cleaner place with all those crappy products going away.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Koen,

Its just some people have invested big money for selling stuff in this forum (like me) and now they get to hear "sorry you cannot do it anymore". I can understand people feel a sad about it.

I guess we need to move on and adapt

I can understand the decision though, it would be a much cleaner place with all those crappy products going away.

That is the response of a gentleman and an adult to changing situations. Thank you, sir!

The thing that gets me is that this was announced months ago. I can't imagine everyone thought the new rule was never going to be enforced. Yet folks act like this should be some huge surprise. I've been making noises about it for a long time. There was plenty of opportunity to develop new sales channels...

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

BTW, Koen... Lose the LinkAloha link in your sig. When the search function is active again and I have five minutes or so, I'm going to give everyone with that in their sig a little extra free time...

We don't want those inbound, either.

Paul
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Martin Luxton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

Hello Warriors,

[snip]

Today, I received a PM from a Warrior named "Paul Meyers" to stop bumping the WSO due to changes in WF Rules.

I think this is hilarious and is one of the symptoms of the WSO problems.

Someone who has been a member since November 2008 with 245 posts has no idea who Paul Meyers (sic) is.

Guess he must spend all his time in the WSO Forum.

Maybe there's an algorithm you could implement there, Paul.

If more than 90% of your total posts are in your own WSO threads you get a polite invitation to come and say 'Hello' to the main discussion forum.

Martin

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tj

15 years ago

My wife Sherice (ecoverartist) spent a lot of time on here at one point but left when it started getting seedy. We're looking forward to the new "old" forum - the way it was back when it meant something to be a Warrior

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by tj

My wife Sherice (ecoverartist) spent a lot of time on here at one point but left when it started getting seedy. We're looking forward to the new "old" forum - the way it was back when it meant something to be a Warrior

TJ, a lot of people from even when I joined in 2006 are no longer around.
And some of them were some pretty good folk.

Yeah, this cleanup is going to shake out the riff-raff all right.

Wonder who's gonna be left when the dust settles?

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Tina Golden 15 years ago

Wonder who's gonna be left when the dust settles?

The cream of the crop, hopefully. I also think as things settle, we'll see a return of some of the great people who used to post here more frequently.

Tina
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- Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  Paul, I know I'm a nobody around here,
  
  Yes, who are you? :rolleyes:
  
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  Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  A new comment just found in the WSO's:
  
  Excellent package!!!
  
  I've only opened the first file and the list of sites were awesome. Great steal.
  
  I really hope you limit the packages though
  
  I have a feeling this person won't be disappointed. Sounds like it's about to become very limited.
  
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Imran Naseem

Banned 15 years ago

At the end of the day the Mods and the Admins have the final say.

No point complaining or bitching. If the mods want to enforce the law so be it. This is a great community and we should be all lucky to have an opportunity to be able to post a WSO to potentially thousands of thousands of potential customers.

The WSO Forum is a goldmine - you can even build an entire list from scratch from this marketplace. Throughout the years Allen has slowly made a few changes but that has never really affected my business online.

So to the complainers stop complaining and get over it.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Imran Naseem

At the end of the day the Mods and the Admins have the final say.

No point complaining or bitching. If the mods want to enforce the law so be it. This is a great community and we should be all lucky to have an opportunity to be able to post a WSO to potentially thousands of thousands of potential customers.

The WSO Forum is a goldmine - you can even build an entire list from scratch from this marketplace. Throughout the years Allen has slowly made a few changes but that has never really affected my business online.

So to the complainers stop complaining and get over it.

Somebody else who gets it. Damn, where is that thank you button?

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LB

15 years ago

My personal opinion is that if you takes cursory glance through the WSO forum and then deduct the ones that will not conform to "rule 7", then the WF is going to take about a 60-70% income hit from WSO's war room signups initially.

Perhaps. But it will only be temporary.

A rising tide raises all ships.

Years ago many of the bigger marketing "names" would release WSOs but they've left along with a lot of good offers. After a brief clean-out phase I predict the WSO forum will be busier than ever.

If someone asked what you did for a living, would you want to show them the WSO forum in its current state as an illustration? Not me.

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tommygadget

15 years ago

@Paul Myers & Allen -> I for one am really glad you are taking this step to weed out the garbage in the WSO forum. While some good people there will have to adapt, it was a long time in coming. I was looking to scope out the competition for around 4 new products I have in the pipeline and honestly, I bought several hundred dollars worth of related WSOs ranging from $7 to over $47 and I was really, really shocked by the quality. I am not going to throw stones, but they all shared the same basic qualities:

1) Titles: "Learn How I Made Over $xxx in x Hours With No Website And No List!" All the same flavor of A) Income claims, and B) without the work associated with building real businesses providing real value.
2) WSO Content: The actual ebooks themselves were nothing more than (real examples) -> Find a popular product on Clickbank and write a compelling forum sig. and spam the forums. -> Find a high converting affiliate program on CJ and write an article about it and post that article to EZA and 20 other directories with your affiliate link (even though EZA does not allow this), etc. Total garbage.
3) Comments in the WSO thread saying how the information is "solid" and newbies would benefit greatly from it. Notice what's missing? Yea, so do I.

It is a bewildering mess and I am optimistic about the eventual quality of the WSO section improving. Despite the initial loss in income from cra$$y WSOs or War Room registrations, the WF's reputation is FAR more important in the long run and when people see that you are serious about maintaining a high standard, you will then get higher quality offers AND clients. Just my $0.02.

TomG.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

I was crystal clear until a few moments ago so thought I would check in here.

Aren't signature links to offending offers banned as well? I am not in the reporting mood. I jsut want to know. The one I see is practically a protest signature to the new policy directing people to where they can get those products and talk grey hat.
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p2y

15 years ago

So would directory submission/article submission/press release submission software be allowed if it had captcha solving or click on the "click here to confirm your submission" type links?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

So would directory submission/article submission/press release submission software be allowed if it had captcha solving or click on the "click here to confirm your submission" type links?

Not enough info to answer, although captcha breaking is a red flag.

My first question would be: Does it submit to any other sort of site?

Paul

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p2y 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Not enough info to answer, although captcha breaking is a red flag.

My first question would be: Does it submit to any other sort of site?

Paul

No, only websites dedicated to receiving submissions from webmasters for example:

Sites Director - Seo friendly User friendly WebDirectory - free links- Submit Link - directory submission site

Article Dashboard Directory | Submit Articles | Search Find Free Content | Author Submission - article submission site

Free Press Release - subimt your press release for free - press release submission site
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  No, only websites dedicated to receiving submissions from webmasters
  
  I would tend to think those would be okay, but that depends on whether there are other factors I don't know about.
  
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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Not enough info to answer, although captcha breaking is a red flag.

My first question would be: Does it submit to any other sort of site?

Paul

I own a few article directories and one link directory. As far as I as a owner is concerned I don't care if those that submit use automated tools to submit article and links. All my sites has captcha activated and this helps for spam. I personally don't take it that authors submitting articles and link to my sites as spam as duplicates is removed anycase.

On the few article directories that can take comments I moderate them and have spam askimet activated and no spammer get past.

I want marketers to submit to my sites as it is a win win situation for me and the author.

I also use all of big mikes software and presume most people that submit to my sites could be as well. Providing it is not rubbish submitted I am happy.

This is my personal opinion.

As a suggestion mabey you should let all the WSO's run until they on page 5 or whatever and let them die out. Implement the new rules and clear all new WSO's to comply when they submitted. I think this will give all current WSO's owners time to adjust.

People don't like change especially if it is sudden.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

As a suggestion mabey you should let all the WSO's run until they on page 5 or whatever and let them die out. Implement the new rules and clear all new WSO's to comply when they submitted. I think this will give all current WSO's owners time to adjust.

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.

People don't like change especially if it is sudden.

The rule has been there. I've been telling people this was coming. It's not like they shouldn't have been prepared.

Paul

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.The rule has been there. I've been telling people this was coming. It's not like they shouldn't have been prepared.

Paul

True, except it appears that the decisions coming down (more "bright-line" rules) are going above and beyond rule #7 (violation of other sites TOS's) (or the other rules) now.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Tom,

True, except it appears that the decisions coming down (more "bright-line" rules) are going above and beyond rule #7 (violation of other sites TOS's) (or the other rules) now.

And which would those be?

I can think of one: Backlinks posted on sites belonging to the person making the offer. That is as much a matter of time and verification as it is of making the point very clear. Beyond that, what do you see as going beyond the stated purpose of that rule?

Paul
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- Rich Mann 15 years ago
  
  As along time member of this forum, I have to say my hat is off to Allen, Paul and all the other admins and mods for taking a strong stand to return this forum to it's former glory of integrity and honesty.
  
  I have been a member since about 2003 (my old user ID got trashed in the 2005 conversion) and although I'm not a prolific poster and have never actually ran a WSO, I initially joined to learn. Learn from some of the best marketers on the net.
  
  I have watched this forum (not a lurker) evolve from a somewhat small group of brilliant marketers dedicated to teaching the beginners the ropes, into a massive community. The transition has been nothing short of amazing.
  
  But, as with any sprawling community, there's bound to be less than desirable elements that infest like weeds. Solution: weed the garden AKA houseclean.
  
  Paul, I've been on your mailing list for years and I consider you one of the most genuine and integrity minded people I know. It's an awesome responsibility (thank God not mine) to make and carry out decisions that affect so many people.
  
  To those that haven't been here long, the changes might seem radical. But for those of us that have been here for awhile, the changes from the way it was to the way it has become seem just as radical.
  
  There will be many more new opportunities that will open up for everyone once the dust settles. For those that learn to adapt and prepare for those new opportunities, I'm confident there will be some prosperous times ahead.
  
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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.The rule has been there. I've been telling people this was coming. It's not like they shouldn't have been prepared.
Paul

I only buy so weren't aware people were warned. Oh well for them then they have to move to b.....h..com if they didn't listen as that is where they belong.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.

Why not turn off bumping for all WSOs before a certain date? If you want to bump your WSO, buy a new one (subject to re-approval), and optionally link to your previous one so people can read the comments on it.

Here's a truly twisted but only semi-related idea: your WSO runs for half as long as you've been on the WF when you post it, and then the thread is removed. So if you want your WSO to run for a week, you'd better not post it until you've been here for two weeks.

I haven't really examined all the ramifications of that... it would inevitably lead to accusations of an "old boy's network," since people like Paul could run a WSO for almost a decade... but it seems like it has some legs.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Why not turn off bumping for all WSOs before a certain date? If you want to bump your WSO, buy a new one (subject to re-approval), and optionally link to your previous one so people can read the comments on it.

LOL, give me a heads up so I can get on that front page before this takes effect.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Here's a truly twisted but only semi-related idea: your WSO runs for half as long as you've been on the WF when you post it, and then the thread is removed. So if you want your WSO to run for a week, you'd better not post it until you've been here for two weeks.

I haven't really examined all the ramifications of that... it would inevitably lead to accusations of an "old boy's network," since people like Paul could run a WSO for almost a decade... but it seems like it has some legs.

I like this one too. Or, how about your WSO is good for the # of posts you have - meaning a post means one day. I'll be up for a while. :p

The issue of working with the # of days is all the dummy accounts sitting and waiting to be used.

Not to say there wouldn't be issues with going by the # of posts one has - but it should all make for interesting conversation on FNC later.

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

How about just stop all bumping totally. When bumping was first allowed it was the first foot in the door to where we are now anyway.

For those who want to keep the testimonials from a previous WSO.. Warrior Plus WSO Tracker has full listings of all WSO's going back several years and had the full threads for each including the testimonials. There is no need to keep the old thread alive since Mike archives them.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Why not turn off bumping for all WSOs before a certain date? If you want to bump your WSO, buy a new one (subject to re-approval), and optionally link to your previous one so people can read the comments on it.

Here's a truly twisted but only semi-related idea: your WSO runs for half as long as you've been on the WF when you post it, and then the thread is removed. So if you want your WSO to run for a week, you'd better not post it until you've been here for two weeks.

I haven't really examined all the ramifications of that... it would inevitably lead to accusations of an "old boy's network," since people like Paul could run a WSO for almost a decade... but it seems like it has some legs.

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

For those who want to keep the testimonials from a previous WSO.. Warrior Plus WSO Tracker has full listings of all WSO's going back several years and had the full threads for each including the testimonials. There is no need to keep the old thread alive since Mike archives them.

This might be getting off the track a bit, but I just had to comment on this piece...

Namely, I wouldn't trust or rely on a third-party site to handle some function of the forum. Mike may change his business model, he may close shop, he may sell the site to someone else, his database and all backups could blow up and disappear tomorrow. There are any number of things that could happen.

If someone wants to save testimonials, they should get a screenshot, put 'em in a PDF file, make a video, get audio testimonials, or just list them on their sales page like normal. But I'd tell folks not to depend on the WF or WP to retain their testimonials.

Sorry for the interruption -- carry on.

Cheers,
Becky

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

If there were ever something to clean up - it would be those warriors with dual personalities ... their integrous warrior face - and then their product stealing BHW retard face.

4morereferrals - Just a note that the people doing this are not necessarily Warriors, in name or action. Anyone can buy a WSO, not just actual members. I'm sure there are some that are signed up and doing this but don't assume they all are.

Tina

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

4morereferrals - Just a note that the people doing this are not necessarily Warriors, in name or action. Anyone can buy a WSO, not just actual members. I'm sure there are some that are signed up and doing this but don't assume they all are.

Tina

Well, there was one particular culprit (identified by his purchase dates of the WSOs), who bought many many WSOs here and then put them up on feedurbrain and other sites, was clearly a member here. Probably the worst WSO copyright infringer of the bunch.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 15 years ago

How's this for ironic. Guess what Mike Lantz's WarriorPlus "WSO of the Day" is? Yep - backlinking

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Kurt

15 years ago

I have a product that has lists of links and ways to automate the process.

The product also includes info that people should respect other sites and participate so that their links will last (avoid link decay). It doesn't do much good if you build links only to have them deleted, and could actually hurt.

I also include automation software to register for accounts. My advice is to register for accounts, see which sites actually work, THEN decide which sites to participate on, after they know which sites actually function. Why waste time researching communities to join, only to see that there registration and email process doesn't even work?

Or how about LinkVana? Dave Kelly uses his own blogs to post links. This is fine, however the benefit is to manipulate Google's SERPS, which is clearly against Google's TOS. But they aren't Google's sites.

While I do agree it's Allen's choice to make, I don't like the decision, at least the guidelines, which seem to make everything black or white when in reality most things are shades of gray.

I like how the courts ruled about Napster and file sharing...Napster software could be used for legit reasons, so the software wasn't said to be illegal. If software and advice can be used for legit and illegit reasons, I feel we should assume it is legit.

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

You seem to mistakenly think this is a democracy. This is Allen's house and it's his rules. Like them or hate them, we as users have no say in what rules Allen and the mods choose to put in place. Since Allen owns this particular piece of internet real estate he has the right to make and enforce any rules he sees fit. It quite honestly is his way or the highway.

Originally Posted by Kurt

I have a product that has lists of links and ways to automate the process.

The product also includes info that people should respect other sites and participate so that their links will last (avoid link decay). It doesn't do much good if you build links only to have them deleted, and could actually hurt.

I also include automation software to register for accounts. My advice is to register for accounts, see which sites actually work, THEN decide which sites to participate on, after they know which sites actually function. Why waste time researching communities to join, only to see that there registration and email process doesn't even work?

Or how about LinkVana? Dave Kelly uses his own blogs to post links. This is fine, however the benefit is to manipulate Google's SERPS, which is clearly against Google's TOS. But they aren't Google's sites.

While I do agree it's Allen's choice to make, I don't like the decision, at least the guidelines, which seem to make everything black or white when in reality most things are shades of gray.

I like how the courts ruled about Napster and file sharing...Napster software could be used for legit reasons, so the software wasn't said to be illegal. If software and advice can be used for legit and illegit reasons, I feel we should assume it is legit.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Actually, the mistake is on YOUR PART believing I think this is a democracy.

Here's what I said "While I do agree it's Allen's choice to make"....What does that mean in your world?

I also included my opinion on the subject, just as you did. And I also posted examples seeking clarity.

But thanks for NOT discussing an actual point I made in my post...

I said I agree with Allen

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

You seem to mistakenly think this is a democracy. This is Allen's house and it's his rules. Like them or hate them, we as users have no say in what rules Allen and the mods choose to put in place. Since Allen owns this particular piece of internet real estate he has the right to make and enforce any rules he sees fit. It quite honestly is his way or the highway.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Johnny,

You seem to mistakenly think this is a democracy.

I didn't get that impression at all. And I happen to know that Kurt knows it's not a democracy. He expressed a differing perspective in a rational way, as something to consider. A lot of people have been a lot worse in these threads, and with a lot less earned right to be taken seriously.

I have tools that could be used in black or white hat fashion. I don't judge the makers on anything but the tone in which they advertise them and the quality of the tools. The problem here is the tone. The atmosphere has been poisoned to the point that assuming significant white-hat usage is wildly counter to reality.

That has to change before there's any discussion of intent.

Paul

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Johnny Slater 15 years ago

That was my bad Paul. I had more to that post that somehow didn't get posted and it makes it look like I was speaking directly to Kurt but I actually wasn't. I was using his post as an example but I did have more there. I threw my back out this morning and I'm fighting some killer pain so I wasn't paying enough attention to what I posted.

To Kurt.. I didn't mean to single you out and imply that you personally fell into the range of the comments I was making. I offer my heartfelt appology for my post seeming to pick on you as that was in no way my intention.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Johnny,I didn't get that impression at all. And I happen to know that Kurt knows it's not a democracy.
Paul
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Caliban,

None of what you're suggesting, except turning off bumping, has anything to do with the issue. And we're not going to penalize people running offers that fall within the parameters of the group to get rid of the offers that don't fit.

Paul

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

None of what you're suggesting, except turning off bumping, has anything to do with the issue.

Depends on whether you think the issue is "many WSOs violate rule #7" or "how to improve the WSO forum," really. I agree that the auto-delete of WSOs after time is only semi-related to the issue close at hand, but I did say that when I suggested it.

It's my nature to generalise problems and take a longer view of them. Sort of the opposite issue from people who fix lots of small problems instead of backing up to see the larger one; people often "treat the symptoms but not the disease," and this frequently just makes things worse. Of course, backing up to look at the "big picture" all the time can often lead to thinking very small problems are actually very large ones that need a lot more time and energy to fix.
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Rich,

Thank you. Those are kind words. I don't make the decisions, though. The members do. I just enforce their decisions. If someone risks too much of their income being dependent on the WSO forum, and then breaks the written rules, who chose the outcome?

None of this was a matter of "if." Just "when." As Floyd mentioned in another post, the first rule of black-hat is to assume you're going to get caught at some point.

The best any of us can do beyond that is try to balance things out to do the least harm and the most good. And try to keep the inevitable mistakes from being too harsh.

Johnny,

No sweat. I hope your back is better soon. I know what that pain is like when you're trying to concentrate.

Paul

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R Hagel 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

As Floyd mentioned in another post, the first rule of black-hat is to assume you're going to get caught at some point.

Wait, what? I thought the first rule of BH is that you do not talk about BH?

Cheers,
Becky
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Caliban,

Yep. It's a balancing act, and sometimes a tricky one. One of the advantages of having a long history with the place is that you can see the future of it better, too.

I try to mix the two by thinking in terms of course corrections. You don't so much direct a group like this as eliminate the bad options and let them choose the rest. (As if there was any other real choice...)

The biggest part of this current challenge arose from people who came in from groups that developed other "approaches," and used the open nature of the Warriors to infect the place. They genuinely don't seem to understand the concept of respect for others - people or property.

That's what's being rooted out. Not minor issues with the WSO process.

Paul

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I try to mix the two by thinking in terms of course corrections. You don't so much direct a group like this as eliminate the bad options and let them choose the rest.

Precisely. This isn't unique to "a group like this," either, unless by "like this" you mean a group of people.

As someone who's been very seriously studying that subject for a very long time, I have a certain perspective on it, but that perspective always comes with a huge disclaimer of "these are generalities and your specific group may not fit them."

Kind of like niche marketing, really. The general wisdom of what does and doesn't convert may simply not apply to your target market, and the only way to know for sure is to try it... trouble is, with community standards, it's much harder to experiment. You don't get many chances to get it right.

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Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago

Why does the conversation always degenerate to a discussion of "how to fix the WSO forum?"...

There is a rule being enforced....

Allen is making bank - check
Sellers are selling products - check
Buyers are buying products - check
Buyers have the ability to comment on what they buy - check
Level playing field - check

Why does everyone want to turn a good thing into a chore?
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Jeremy,
  
  Why does the conversation always degenerate to a discussion of "how to fix the WSO forum?"...
  
  Because it isn't exactly what they want, which means it's borked.
  
  At this moment, people are confusing the process with the content. Muddy thinking.
  
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  Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  I don't know about everybody else, but I'm watching to see who falls where
  on this whole issue.
  
  It gives one great insight into who you may or may not want to do
  business with from depending on whether you are pro or against black hat
  tactics.
  
  I don't pass judgment. That's not my job. But I do want to know the ethics
  of the people I do business with.
  
  So far, it's been an interesting thread to say the least.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Steven,
  
  Excellent point.
  
  "When a person gives you their opinion about a thing, you learn nothing about the thing, but a great deal about the person."
  
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  Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  At this moment, people are confusing the process with the content. Muddy thinking.
  
  Paul
  
  Not just at this moment lol - It's a constant discussion about something that doesn't need to be discussed.
  
  If anyone thinks that either Allen isn't watching what happens here, or that he doesn't have people watching, so that he can make adjustments when HE SEES FIT, they need to have their heads checked.
  
  This is a forum first and foremost, where people can come hang out, talk about their business, ask for help, or give help if they see fit.
  
  Unfortunately, people seem to think that "fixing" something that isn't broken is some sort of personal mission for them.
  
  A rule is being enforced...I don't think that because a new rule is being enforced that it is open season for "FORUM REFORM" , unless BO is somehow a moderator here - then we are all screwed, but I digress...lol
  
  Warrior forum = good
  Discussion = good
  WSO section = Good
  Tactics that break TOS = Bad
  
  mkay'?
  
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Johnny,I didn't get that impression at all. And I happen to know that Kurt knows it's not a democracy. He expressed a differing perspective in a rational way, as something to consider. A lot of people have been a lot worse in these threads, and with a lot less earned right to be taken seriously.

I have tools that could be used in black or white hat fashion. I don't judge the makers on anything but the tone in which they advertise them and the quality of the tools. The problem here is the tone. The atmosphere has been poisoned to the point that assuming significant white-hat usage is wildly counter to reality.

That has to change before there's any discussion of intent.

Paul

Thanks Paul...

This is why Slater's comments got me riled a bit...Because I am so much in favor of a web master's rights to do what they want to do with their own sites, and have posted so many times on this forum. Talk about a bad "poker read".

And if I disagree with Allen's decisions, I will still fight for his right to make them on his own site. It's his right and obligation to do what he wants with his own proprty. But if he offers me a chance to voice my disagreement, I'll take it, with respect to him. I may post something he hadn't thought of and may agree with...Probably not, but worth a shot.

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Gary Becks

15 years ago

Ok so backlink packets are out, automation software is out, anything using proxies is out, and a few other products might get the boot as well. This much I am clear on.

What about products such as SEO related ebooks that give deatailed instructions on how to implement what some may deem as being "balck hat" or even in the grey area strategies? Are these no longer allowed as well?

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

Considering that even the term black hat has been banned from the forum before I would think it would be clear that anything black hat isn't welcome here any longer. But then again that's just me.

Originally Posted by Gary Becks

Ok so backlink packets are out, automation software is out, anything using proxies is out, and a few other products might get the boot as well. This much I am clear on.

What about products such as SEO related ebooks that give deatailed instructions on how to implement what some may deem as being "balck hat" or even in the grey area strategies? Are these no longer allowed as well?

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mrdomains 15 years ago

I have purchased my fair share of WSO´s and will continue to do so. Apart from plugins, I mostly buy out of curiosity as I try to evaluate what the current fashion is and if there is any meat on the bones.

I´m a newcomer to WF compared to many, many members. One might think that I would have nothing to compare with - the way it was before vs the way it is now. Maybe so, but I welcome the cleanup because regardless of how it was before, the way it is now is not what it could be.

The WSO section reminds me of the selling rooms in Asheron´s Call, the sub (long time ago), where every player would crowd in to shout their crafted merchandise and loot for sale. There were few rules and slack moderation. Everyone tried to get attention by more and more outrageous headlines until most items were advertised as must-have game-winners. The trinklets that were circulated soon devalued the market to simple feeding on first-timers. It became a playground and the real gems were nowhere to be found by then, having migrated to other venues.

I doubt we will be going back to how it was. Anyway, retro is seldom good. But maybe it will become better than it ever was.

If there be rules, enforce them!
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- sanssecret 15 years ago
  
  I am sooooooo loving this thread, along with the cleanup it's talking about.
  
  I haven't been here that long, so I don't claim to know what it was like in the 'good old days', but I know what I expected it to be when I signed up. And now it sounds like it's going to turn out like that after all.
  
  I really wish we had the thanks button up and running. There are just so many posters here that deserve it.
  
  And Paul petal, I have to say, you handle this whole thing so well. Yeah, maybe you're an old hand at this type of stuff, but I believe a lot of it comes down to character, more than just experience. There's more to be learned in this thread than just WSO rules.
  
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Gary,

Ok so backlink packets are out, automation software is out, anything using proxies is out, and a few other products might get the boot as well. This much I am clear on.

What about products such as SEO related ebooks that give deatailed instructions on how to implement what some may deem as being "balck hat" or even in the grey area strategies? Are these no longer allowed as well?

Not all automation software is out. As far as ebooks and courses, read the WSO rules. That is answered quite clearly in them.

Paul

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Dennis Gaskill

15 years ago

Steven, I'm with you. I've read every post in this thread to get a read on which side of the fence people stand on. There are a good many threads that lend themselves well toward that end. I'm not making moral judgments, what others do is their business, but who I do business with is my business.

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Chris Hunter

15 years ago

Ok, I'm late to the game, so can someone point me to a link containing what the new rules are?

I'm not arguing anything. I just want to know what the specific changes are, that's all.

Once I find that out, I may want to argue then. KIDDING!

P.S. - I suppose that we can thank the guy that was asking if XRumer runs were ok to offer here, huh? LOL!

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teguh123

15 years ago

Does this affect paul and angela's backlink?>

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Imran Naseem Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by teguh123

Does this affect paul and angela's backlink?>

Yes it does, unless there is a special VIP pass from them both granting them special treatment.
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jazbo

15 years ago

Ok, so reading back, there is no reply to my question about signatures and topics etc. I do see that Mike Anthony has said his signature is deleted, so evidently "rule 7" applies not just to the WSO forum as some has said and does now extend to signatures as well.

Could I ask for some clarity on this please Paul. I am not going to reply to anything in the SEO forum until I know if rules 7 applies everywhere.

For example if someone else says "recommend me a linkbuilding automation tool" and I recommend one, am I going to get slapped with a ban??? Is this "rule 7" now a general forum rule?

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jazbo

Ok, so reading back, there is no reply to my question about signatures and topics etc.

Paul did address the sig question earlier in the thread -- back in post #41 right here.

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halfpoint

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

Paul did address the sig question earlier in the thread -- back in post #41 right here.

Becky,

That doesn't address the content of posts and topics and what can be spoken about and what cannot.

A lot of the things talked about in the SEO section break the TOS of sites so Jazbo is looking for clarification on post and thread content rather than signatures.

I was just about to ask the same question, myself.

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Pat Jackson

Becky,

That doesn't address the content of posts and topics and what can be spoken about and what cannot.

A lot of the things talked about in the SEO section break the TOS of sites so Jazbo is looking for clarification on post and thread content rather than signatures.

I was just about to ask the same question, myself.

I didn't say it addressed the posts/topics question -- I just said it addressed the sigs question.

However, this thread addresses the topics question:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...sites-tos.html

(Note -- while the thread talks about proxies, note that the title of that thread refers to posts that advocate breaking a site's TOS. So, the thread topic appears to cover more than just proxies.)

Cheers,
Becky

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Okay. That last answer wasn't too clear. I was looking at it as though the question was about edge cases, which isn't necessarily a correct reading.

Promoting techniques that violate the TOS of one or more sites is not something we allow when we become aware of it. So yes, those could get deleted. That's the risk you take when you make them.

I'm not going to tell you it will happen every time, as we don't see every post. A lot of drift can happen (and has) because of that, and a lot can get by us. But yeah, they're against the way we want this place run. Have been, for a long time.

Paul
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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by jazbo

Ok, so reading back, there is no reply to my question about signatures and topics etc. I do see that Mike Anthony has said his signature is deleted,

No. Sorry if I worded that wrong (I've corrected that ). I voluntarily removed it to comply. Again its was not deleted. However I believe Signatures down the line could be IF I read Paul right.
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Paul Myers 15 years ago

For example if someone else says "recommend me a linkbuilding automation tool" and I recommend one, am I going to get slapped with a ban???

Discussions tend to drift, and we don't nuke people for that, including the "grey" stuff. Straight black hat stuff like Xrumer is strictly off limits, though. Even then, it would most likely be a warning or just deletion of the post, the first time.

As far as sig files, I tend to leave those alone, but I'm not the only person who does this. If you are worried about what's in your sig, it's probably best to leave it out.

The normal routine with a problem sig file is to blank out the sig.

Paul
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StevenK

15 years ago

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The rule was established several months ago, but it is now starting to get enforced. I presume the "sellers" knew about the rule but just continued to offer the WSO.

If correct, this should not be a surprise or even a shock to some.

Steve

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Steve,

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The rule was established several months ago, but it is now starting to get enforced. I presume the "sellers" knew about the rule but just continued to offer the WSO.

If correct, this should not be a surprise or even a shock to some.

It was posted just about 5 months ago. As in, December 3 of last year. The rules thread title was changed to notify people that there was a modification to the terms. Whether any individual read those or not is anyone's guess. But it was not done sneakily, and it's been mentioned in here several times that enforcement was coming.

I'm sure some people missed it. Some others probably just hoped to make what they could before it was enforced. Still others probably assumed it was a fig leaf. More lines of thought could be out there, too.

General comments...

The issue isn't whether we should or shouldn't enforce it. Very few people are arguing that. The debate is the result of a couple other things. First, the tendency people have to push back when they lose something. The second, usually stated as "It's got to be fair," is based in the thought that, since they had something taken from them, others should feel the pain, too.

The leverage is to shout "It's unfair" or to post nonsense about favoritism being bad. Yes, there are some lines that no-one in the group should be allowed to cross. No question. But not all things are that cut and dried.

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

Yes, there are people here that I treat better than others. They are not all folks I personally like. They're people who do more for the group. As I said in the first set of rules I wrote for this place, "Them that gives, gets."

Don't like that? Too bad.

A bit of history: The concept of a WSO was the serendipitous brainchild of one Theresa King. Theresa was one of the most helpful people ever to grace this forum, way back in the early days. She helped the other members publicly, privately, and in just about every way she could. One day she made a post offering one of her products at a significant discount, as a "special offer to Warriors."

Some people freaked when I approved it. Some tried to follow suit, thinking it meant that ads were okay. (Remember - there was only one section of the forum at the time.) Others calmly asked what was going on. Most just went about their business, figuring we had some clue what we were doing.

I quoted the line, "Them that gives, gets." When people tried pinning it down to specific criteria, I told them, "It's a matter of judgement. Mine." I was the only one moderating at the time, so that was simple truth, and settled the legalistic quibbling. The only hard rule was that the discount had to be 25% or more lower than what you were selling it for elsewhere for digital products, and 10% or more off physical products.

The same attitude that Theresa brought to it - make some money while helping the group - is what drove the WSO section when Allen created it. Giving special treatment to your friends and associates. Building each other up.

That's the thing the old-timers are talking about when they mention how it used to be. Not how much more time your offer stayed on page one, or tricks to get more views and make the thread look hotter than it really was. It was that attitude. Not every offer had it, but enough did that it carried on in that section for years.

Now it has all the grace and charm of a pirannha tank. And that's fine, as long as it stays within certain bounds. Bounds like not lying about offers, and not teaching people to be destructive for fun and/or profit.

As far as the literalist nit-picking, I'm going to let you in on an open secret: Terms of service agreements are written with bad actors in mind. There are things you can do that comply 100% with the spirit of a site and which benefit the site and its members which are technically not allowed under the terms.

I don't quarrel with folks about those. If the site owners don't mind, I don't.

The backlink stuff is very, very rarely a matter like that. It's almost always about getting links at someone else's expense. That's destructive, and that's why the hard line on it.

Paul

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Dennis Gaskill 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

I've never really thought of it in those terms before, but that line should be a light-bulb moment for those that give little and complain a lot. I certainly have customers I'd go out of my way to help, and others I wouldn't. I think it's human nature to want to help and/or give the benefit of the doubt to those who are more helpful and more giving than the average Joe.
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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

I really, really like this. I'm totally jacking it so I can quote you all over the place.
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- Dennis Gaskill 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  I really, really like this. I'm totally jacking it so I can quote you all over the place.
  
  Ha ha - I've already added it to my quotation file as well.
  
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Robert Puddy 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

I wish every forum moderator took this view, a community benefits greatly from those who earn the right to be treated differently than the masses.

Some people (like theresa was) are the heart of a community and should gain priveldge within that community

Robert
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TrafficMystic

15 years ago

Paul, Do you have a list of the software apps that are barred?

My current link building software is semi automated and works off the sites that users import /add in themselves. It doesnt auto capture but assists them in filling in details like roboform but it a lot more advanced..

It does allow a proxy to be set but this is needed if your on a network or intranet based network.

Whats you views on this?

regards

Steve

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jaiganeshv

15 years ago

Lots of things happening in the WF lately, few confusions as well

for the past 3 days i could not perform search operations properly and seems this isue persisted with everyone out here.

Now i wonder about the new rules change...

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jaxstar

15 years ago

As a very noob in the IM field, I'm glad to see that things will be cleaned up. I'm looking to establish my site for long-term success and not just one or two months. When I first started, I did read through black hat forums but quickly realized that those things might work short term but not long term at all. I then switched to this forum hoping that what I learned on here would build for long term success. So I'm glad to see the topics discussed here will be more on the up and up.

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jatchue Banned 15 years ago

Sounds like the Guru's that run this place are getting heads the size of the dopes over at Google.

When you think about it any backlink you create yourself pointing back at a website you own is a false backlink and probably breaks Goolge's TOS.

You mean to tell me that you guys never have broken any TOS with any of the marketing you've done online?

Bull****.

The only reason I visit here is for backlink advice, the rest of it you can learn anywhere.

Don't worry about banning me, I won't be back. I hate it when pompous assholes decide they need to fix things that are wrong that do not concern them.

Thank God for the backlinks forum.
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- Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by jatchue
  
  Sounds like the Guru's that run this place are getting heads the size of the dopes over at Google.
  
  Bubye. Adios.
  
  Why am I suddenly humming that Lawrence Welk song in my head - you know, the one they played at the end of the show?
  
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  grayambition 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by avenuegirl
  
  Bubye. Adios.
  Why am I suddenly humming that Lawrence Welk song in my head - you know, the one they played at the end of the show?
  
  LOL. Probably about the same time & for the same reason I started humming "Happy Trails to You"
  
  YouTube - Roy Rogers & Dale Evans - Happy Trails...
  
  I also started thinking (not for the first time) that we need a NO THANKS button.
  
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  I hate it when pompous assholes decide they need to fix things that are wrong that do not concern them.
  
  If you're going to use my title, use the full, official version. As in, "That's Mr Pompous Asshole, sir" to you.
  
  Now then... This does concern us. It's not about telling anyone what to do on any other site. Just what we'll allow here. If you don't like that, you've picked the right option: Go elsewhere. And feel free to take those who think like you along for the ride.
  
  It also has the benefit of making people think before they do destructive things that cost other people money and ruin resources that benefit folks who need them.
  
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seobro

15 years ago

I have a forum with over 30,000 members and for some reason, people that sell {wow gold, see alice, rorex reprica} feel the need to spam me. OK my guess is that there were some complaints and you are catching fire now. As long as forum posts, blog comments, etc. are on topic, it should be OK - what do you say?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Steve,

I'd need more info before I could answer the question. Understand, though, that I'm not saying all tools in a certain class are bad. It's far more important to know how they're used. The challenge with some is that they're designed specifically to do massive amounts of damage.

I can't put together a list, because I don't know all the software in the affected categories.

seobro,

OK my guess is that there were some complaints and you are catching fire now.

Nope. It just needs doing.

As long as forum posts, blog comments, etc. are on topic, it should be OK - what do you say?

That's a minimum standard, not the desirable goal. "On topic" can cover a multitude of graces and sins. The goal is for comments to contribute to the overall conversation in a useful way.

Paul
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Cash37

15 years ago

I dont know how to react to this since I do use warrior linking services often...

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Michele Buch

15 years ago

Paul,
It would be easy to be lazy and let things slide. Thank you for your diligence in enforcing the high standards of the WF and for all the time and love you put into it.

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4morereferrals 15 years ago

Paul,

Somebody ... literally 2-3 minutes prior to me going into my sig to delete the reference to backlink products - beat me to it yesterday. Saved me a step thx.

I dont dare bump any of my wso's - even though I have not formally rec'd an email or PM advising not to. Not willing to play with fire as others appear to be.

Yet I see 2 people on this page with reference to backlinks products / services in their sigs ... AND I still see some of the more prolific backlink / TOS violating WSO products using ping . fm etc ... being bumped [ I have NO Doubt ... that warrior is aware of the new enforcement policy ] irk-some. And, apparently the way to circumvent the rules is to bundle the backlinking with other items :rolleyes:

I do understand this is a process and will take time to get to all the "violators". I dont mind the rule, just hope its application gets distributed equally - with no sacred cows.
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Vis

15 years ago

Thanks goodness... I guess I don't need my broom when I go into the WSO section... Though I am a newcomer here and never knew what the old WF was like, I do recognize the huge need of some control here in the forum - after all, I have been smelling that snarky odor I got from those old ebay digital goods...

I just want to express - Kudos for the big clean up! I cannot wait to see the old WF as others are claiming...

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Kella Bella

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Vis

Thanks goodness... I guess I don't need my broom when I go into the WSO section... Though I am a newcomer here and never knew what the old WF was like, I do recognize the huge need of some control here in the forum - after all, I have been smelling that snarky odor I got from those old ebay digital goods...

I just want to express - Kudos for the big clean up! I cannot wait to see the old WF as others are claiming...

Totally agrees with this statement

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Jgregory

15 years ago

Just my own Two Cents on Rule #7

There's sertainly no need for name calling or wild guessing about the reasons.

The good folks who own WF must do do this anyway. They have a successful business here and this is self-protection. They have a lot at stake personally.

The "internet" is growing up due the huge amount of eCommerce in last 5 years. Trillions of dollars are changing hands over the internet.

Lawyer 101 in Law School
Follow the Money

The owners are just protecting themselves from "sideways lawsuits" for any violation of a website's TOS, such as a TOS that says "no automated posting" or "do not use Proxies to access our data".

But if this is just information on somebody's forum whats the big deal?
Can a lawyer sue the "somebody" for running a forum or website where this is just information?

Yep. Sure can. And they do. And they win

And often the deep pocket theory wins the case. Those with the most money for lawyers win. Even if they don't, the "winners" have spent 100's of thousands on defense lawyers.

My other Two Cents

The net effect of #7 might be a little bit cleaner WSO area and help you find the nuggets in there that can actually help you.

all the best,
Jan

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matrix1989

15 years ago

well, i just got an email from a prominent backlinker saying they can no longer sell their backlink packets on here. I'm outraged to say the least. This is where i come to find backlink packets and I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...

A perfectly reasonable choice of response. Thanks for visiting.

Bye.

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Quote:
I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...
A perfectly reasonable choice of response. Thanks for visiting.

Bye.

There are indeed other forums where "those" services are not banned [yet], although DP also has many similar and related services on their blacklist, eg. blog commenting, bookmarking stumbling and so forth has been banned there for some time already.

You wont "lose" anything by visiting "those" forums.

Regardless whether we agree with all changes and enforcements, there NEEDED something to be done with the WSO section.

The WSO section actually became LESS attractive due the fact that some could/can find the same link building services here as on DP or w****e forum. So what's the point of the WSO forum?

As so nicely stated, read about how the WSO section started initially and what its ORIGINAL purpose was. "Providing [a special deal or offer] to the forum community"

Finding the same 500 [link] services as i can do on OTHER places hardly is good for this forum....IT SHOULD BE DIFFERENT.

Otherwise it wouldn't be the warrior forum but simply a clone of existing webmaster forums, same offers, same services, same low quality, same CPA and ewhoring nonsense.

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dyadvisor 15 years ago

Here is Google's viewpoint according to Matt Cutts:

"- Use the unauthenticated spam report form and make sure to include the word “paidlink” (all one word) in the text area of the spam report. As far as the details, it can be pretty short. Something like “Example.com is selling links; here’s a page on example.com that demonstrates that” or “www.mattcutts.com is buying links. You can see the paid links on www.example.com/path/page.html” is all you need to mention. That will be enough for Google to start testing out some new techniques we’ve got — thanks!"

I am certainly not going to tattle. But now you can see Google's reaction.
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Zabrina

15 years ago

Thank goodness. I'm so glad this is happening.

I've only been around for a year or so (I know my join date is "off", long story), but even in that time, I've seen the quality of the WSO forum slide down. I've heard enough from longtime Warriors to understand what it was like "before" -- and that's exactly the atmosphere I was hoping to find here, that I have found to some extent but not as much as I'd like to have found.

I've stopped going in the WSO forum because it's so much work to sift out the jewels from the mountains of junk. I think it sunk in fully when I found a "list of backlinks" in the War Room not long ago and visited one or two of the sites. They were filled with garbage that had been posted since the War Room thread had been posted, clearly Warriors spamming what was otherwise an interesting site. I got the heck outta Dodge, and it left a bad taste in my mouth for all BH products and methods.

IMHO, the folks who sell backlink services need to start thinking about the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you wouldn't want hundreds of people leaving you hours of deletion/cleanup work in just minutes or seconds, why make a profit from all that heartache, frustration and annoyance of other webmasters?

Again, I'm so glad the atmosphere in the forum will be changing. Can't wait to see the shiny, clean WSO forum, Classifieds, Warriors for Hire and signatures.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago