Yet another lemon of a JV email

246 replies
Yet another example of how not to approach people. This is an unedited copy (other than removing the sender's name) of a "JV request" I just got.

Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + this one

Hi Myers
I want to propose a JV

Can you refer me to one of your manager who manages JV for you? To do a
proper due-diligence on my proposal.

I know you don't have 30 mts. Do you have the time to do this a justice
yourself?

Ignore this email & forget a US$1 mil bonus coming to you within next 1
month on top of your normal commissions

Myers, stop wasting your time on chicken-feeds
Have fun
[Name removed]


The subject line was clever. The intro was at least an attempt to respect the recipient's time. The rest? Not so good...

How would you have changed this to make it more effective?


Paul
#email #lemon #o rly
  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Paul, I don't even know where to begin. Clearly the sender doesn't respect your time, nor does he respect you. I found the "chicken-feeds" comment quite derisive and clearly the moron didn't know whom he was addressing. That one was a lot worse than the one I got PMed to me a few days ago because at least in that message the gentleman made a very good case on why his product was unique.

    So, how about with: I would scrap the whole thing and change it completely!

    I would have started off with "...Hi Paul, I've been a long time reader of your newsletter....... I can lead in that way because it's true. I mean, c'mon, the guy could have at least made a feeble attempt at establishing some rapport first, but he couldn't be bothered and in a few months he /she is going to come in here complaining that no one wants to JV with them.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Well "Myers",

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?
    I wouldn't have sent it! ;-)

    Seriously, the critically most important part of a
    JV Proposal is to know your target audience.

    I would have subscribed to the recipient's ezine
    to get a feel for their writing style, the relevance
    of my proposal to their subscribers.

    I would have researched the recipient to uncover
    a trigger that might get me noticed.. maybe open
    with an interesting quotation...
    "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where
    it has been." ~~
    Wayne Gretzky

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
    Ha, nice

    I would of taken the more personal route - taken the time to look into your site(s) a little more and tell you why your site in particular would be relevant and what I CAN DO FOR YOU... and during this process I might genuinely find that we could work together really well, and just doing some research makes you much more credible.
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  • Profile picture of the author BenBrandes
    That is definitely by far the worst JV email I've ever read.

    How would I change it? Just some of the things are:

    1. Make sure it's readable
    2. Explain what the JV is
    3. Explain exactly how it will help you and your subscribers/customers
    4. Outline how easy it will be for you to implement and do as much as I can
    5. Add proof to the proposal of others doing it (preferably people you may know)
    6. Make it personal
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    • Profile picture of the author blackmagido
      Originally Posted by BenBrandes View Post

      That is definitely by far the worst JV email I've ever read.

      How would I change it? Just some of the things are:

      1. Make sure it's readable
      2. Explain what the JV is
      3. Explain exactly how it will help you and your subscribers/customers
      4. Outline how easy it will be for you to implement and do as much as I can
      5. Add proof to the proposal of others doing it (preferably people you may know)
      6. Make it personal
      I'm new to all this but this one sounds more appropriate. Ben got it right.
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  • Profile picture of the author thescribe
    Ummm, the entire email barely made sense. The first thing that I would suggest would be to rewrite it so that whoever receives it could at least understand it.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Whoa -- "changing" the email isn't really an option. That one needs a complete rewrite. You have no idea what the JV is, how it benefits you (other than the outlandish $1 mil claim) and how it benefits your subscribers/customers.

    I also don't like the "your loss" tone at the end. Most folks doing JVs realize that their potential partner (in this case, Paul) is the one who's doing the favor.

    And even the "Have Fun" sign off is just wrong.

    Fail.

    Complete rewrite needed.

    Cheers,
    Becky

    P.S. The prospective partner could have just written this and got about the same response:


    Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + this one

    Hi Myers,

    Nice hat.

    Wanna JV?

    Have Fun...
    [name]
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  • Profile picture of the author Sylvia Meier
    LOL, See I had never myself recieved JV requests and about 2 weeks or so ago, I started to recieve them, and I can now feel the pain some of you do. It is unbelievable the approach some take.

    As for that one. Scrap it altogether.

    How to do it better?

    First, I would have actually built some form of relationship with you first. I would ensure I recieve your newletters so that I know the type of products you promote, the repoire you have with your consumers, and your general marketing approach.

    I would spend a few YEARS on your list, and actually respond to your questions in your newsletters, or provide you with any help I could. (Like if you were to put out a product and I thought of a possible add-on or had positive critism on what you may want to add or change about the product)

    Pretty much boils down to, I would build up a RELATIONSHIP with you. As I would value you as a fellow marketer, and would not want to waste your time with a JV proposal that would not even fit your market or your customers.

    I would essentially do all I could to know more about you, your list, and your style and in the mean time, become more than just joe blow asking you to mail my product.

    I would then, and only then, have the nerve to ask for the JV. And even then I would approach it much better than this individual.

    Something along the lines of,

    Paul, (I would open it informally, as by this time I should have built enough of a relationship with you to be able to comfortably be able to do this)

    As you know I've been a follower of yours for the last few years and have come to enjoy your newsletter and the great information your provide your readers.

    I also quite enjoy the wit and humor that you always seem to inject into your newsletters. In fact, they are one of the only emails I just can't open the moment they land in my inbox, as they are always of such quality that I need to set aside a time to actually go through it, as I don't ever want to miss those hidden gems of wisdom that you place within them that could help a newer marketer like me.

    I've even ensured I've signed up to your forum, as I wouldn't want to miss out on any great little tidbits you have to offer.

    As your newsletter always closes, 100% of the shots you don't take don't go in, I thought I would take my own shot.

    You see I have a product I feel would be perfectly suited to your list. My product XYZ compliments your product ABC.

    I have attached a review copy so you can go over it prior to deciding, as I know you only endorse products of the highest quality, and even though I feel mine would be in this category, I would rather you be the one to decide that it is a good enough fit for your readers.

    If you then decide it is of value to your readers I would be happy to work something out that would work for the both of us, and your readers.

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you,
    Sylvia

    P.S I show in my product XYZ why they should use your product ABC as the two products work in great synergy together. (This would mean that not only would you be promoting my item, but the buyers of XYZ, would also be cross promoted your own products as well.)


    Now of course that is just something off the top of my head first thing in the morning so it is not exactly what I would send, but you can get the general idea.

    Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    Dear Mr. Myers,

    I have a product that I believe will compliment your customer base and could be worth $1 million to you in one month.

    I am interested in proposing a joint venture with you about the launch, but I need to confirm that it is in the best interest for both you and me.

    I only need about 30 minutes of your time, or I can talk to your assistant. I will be available Thursday between 1:00pm and 5:00pm if you would like to talk, or you can have your assistant call my office anytime between 8:00am and 5:00pm EDT Thursday or Friday to talk or to make an appointment that better fits your schedule.

    It is very important that I get this product to market as soon as possible, so I really need to hear from your office by 5:00pm Friday EDT, otherwise, as you understand, I will have to make the offer to my second choice, Frank Kern.

    My personal phone number is (704) 555-1212
    My office number is (704) 555-1234
    My private email is buck@mydomain.url

    Thank you for taking time to read this.
    Buck


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    • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
      For those of you who don't have a sense of humor, i would not really include the name of the second choice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    or how about contacting you to see if you have any products that you might want affiliates for, signing up for one of them, make you a bunch of sales, then send you an email:

    Hi my name is X and I am affiliate nr.x (or ID x)

    It has been very nice working with you and I wanted to
    ask you something.

    I have a product that I think will benefit your list greatly,
    would you mind taking a look and tell me what you think?

    Good Day !

    After reading the email you ofc would look the affiliate up, see that
    he made you a bunch of sales and you say "Hey, the guy does know his stuff
    and he did make me a nice chunk of cash, I can take 5 minutes to look at his product".

    And that's how reciprocity kicks in and amazing JV's can be made.

    Because that way the affiliate proves to you that he is serious and he actually knows what he is doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    Paul I sent that as a PRIVATE MESSAGE to you! Why would you share my secret JV message with the world!? *tear*

    ~Dexx
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  • Profile picture of the author MelMAC
    The letter writer is looking for business partners?

    Wow. I'm new to this and am all agoogle that somebody would even bother to send it. It is offhand, illiterate, and seems vaguely insulting. Dude just assumes you waste your time on chicken-feeds!

    (Chickens need to eat too, heh).
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      Paul,

      I received that one too, worded exactly the same way. Now doesn't that make you feel special?

      N4PGW's attempt, while more literate, would never spark any interest in me, either. I would not devote 30 minutes of my time to hearing out this proposal. I want to see it in its full glory as I can decide in 2 minutes or less whether or not there's a prayer of it fitting my business and my customers.

      I can't imagine that other busy recipients would set up a half hour phone appointment with a stranger from N4PGW's email, either. Sorry!

      Marcia Yudkin
      (Recipient of many, many awful JV proposals)
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Proper English would be first.

    Then perhaps suggesting what the JV might be about, at least the genre, if not the specifics.

    Actually... the entire email is hopeless. Unfixable not just in language, but in approach, attitude, and concept. Other than the fact he got you to read it... it was a complete failure.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Change it? I'd scrap it and start from scratch.

      If I were to send you a JV proposal, it would read something like this.

      Subject - From Steven Wagenheim - Something You Might Like To Consider

      Hi Paul:

      I don't know if you know me or not so let me briefly introduce myself.

      My name is Steven Wagenheim and I've been marketing online for a little
      over 7 years. I have also been following your newsletter for quite some time.
      It is very obvious that you are one of the more intelligent people in this
      business and look forward to every issue you put out.

      I don't normally send out JV emails but after seeing your newsletter
      and getting a good feel for what you do, I think the product I have will
      be a nice fit for your list, but I'll let you be the judge.

      I perfectly understand if you don't have the time or even the inclination
      to promote this. I, more than anyone, know how annoying JV offers can
      be sometime.

      So to make this more appealing to you, I have put together a full
      promotional packet for you, though you will probably want to create
      your own promotional materials. This packet also contains a copy of
      the product.

      I will only send it to you upon your request.

      I offer a 75% commission for my special JV partners (50% for everyone
      else) on a $197 product. I figure if you're going to promote something,
      it should be at least worth your time.

      If you are interested, you can reach me at:

      email address
      phone number
      skype

      If you prefer to talk, I've included the last two contacts.

      I look forward to hear from you but in no way want you to feel
      obligated.

      In the meantime, if there is anything that I can do for you personally,
      please don't hesitate to ask.

      In either case, I love your newsletter and look forward to your next issue.

      Sincerely,

      Steven Wagenheim

      _______________________

      Now, that's just off the top of my head and I might have left something
      important out (not sure without going over it in detail) but that is
      pretty much what I'd do

      Comments?
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      • Profile picture of the author kyhell
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Change it? I'd scrap it and start from scratch.

        If I were to send you a JV proposal, it would read something like this.

        Subject - From Steven Wagenheim - Something You Might Like To Consider

        Hi Paul:

        I don't know if you know me or not so let me briefly introduce myself.

        My name is Steven Wagenheim and I've been marketing online for a little
        over 7 years. I have also been following your newsletter for quite some time.
        It is very obvious that you are one of the more intelligent people in this
        business and look forward to every issue you put out.

        I don't normally send out JV emails but after seeing your newsletter
        and getting a good feel for what you do, I think the product I have will
        be a nice fit for your list, but I'll let you be the judge.

        I perfectly understand if you don't have the time or even the inclination
        to promote this. I, more than anyone, know how annoying JV offers can
        be sometime.

        So to make this more appealing to you, I have put together a full
        promotional packet for you, though you will probably want to create
        your own promotional materials. This packet also contains a copy of
        the product.

        I will only send it to you upon your request.

        I offer a 75% commission for my special JV partners (50% for everyone
        else) on a $197 product. I figure if you're going to promote something,
        it should be at least worth your time.

        If you are interested, you can reach me at:

        email address
        phone number
        skype

        If you prefer to talk, I've included the last two contacts.

        I look forward to hear from you but in no way want you to feel
        obligated.

        In the meantime, if there is anything that I can do for you personally,
        please don't hesitate to ask.

        In either case, I love your newsletter and look forward to your next issue.

        Sincerely,

        Steven Wagenheim

        _______________________

        Now, that's just off the top of my head and I might have left something
        important out (not sure without going over it in detail) but that is
        pretty much what I'd do

        Comments?
        Steve may i use this as a JV template?
        This is pure gold!
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by kyhell View Post

          Steve may i use this as a JV template?
          This is pure gold!
          Feel free to use any part of it that you like.

          Hope it works for you. Please note, it won't work for everybody.
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        • Profile picture of the author Izesta
          I find it hard to believe anyone would send such a poorly written message. The 1st change should be speak proper grammar, English and sentence structure.

          Writing like that and speaking of millions in the same message is an oxymoron.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          The way to get Paul to mail for you is to back up a beer truck to his house.

          At least that will get his attention.

          The man CAN hold his beer. :-)
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


            The man CAN hold his beer. :-)
            That is because Paul was born before indoor plumbing. He learned how to hold his beer because of the cold winters.

            Let's just say that people who set down their half empty beer, next to Paul, came back to a full bottle.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Caliban,

              I said:
              Do you still expect to maintain the assertion that you attach no emotional tone to your comments on this issue?
              And you replied:
              I don't have any particular emotional reaction to whether someone is a primadonna squathead.
              There's a disconnect between what I wrote and your reply. We may be talking past each other at this point. Or I may not be as clear as I'd like. This does relate to the original topic, so I'll restate it from a different (and more relevant) angle.

              You have, throughout this thread, used terms and phrases that the majority of people consider to be fairly emotionally packed. I can list them for you, if you'd like.

              Using those sorts of phrases is a direct route to creating an emotional response in the reader. If you don't intend or desire to create those specific responses, you should try to be more aware of how you use such terms. If you choose not to be alert for them, you should not be surprised when you get a particular type of comment in return.

              If you sound angry or annoyed, based on general social conventions for how certain words are used, that will color how people interpret your comments. If that is a regular and consistent thing, it will develop that interpretation into a habit for your readers.

              In the absence of context and history, such as occurred with the "JV" email in the OP, those types of words and phrasings control the response to a larger degree. Even lacking the scammy sounding comment about a million dollar bonus, that email was riddled with word choices and assumptions that guaranteed it would fail.

              The intent of the sender is irrelevant in that case. It's not a situation where he's likely to get a chance to clarify. The only difference in a forum is that you get that chance. If you don't use it, you reinforce the impressions.

              You may suggest that it's the reader's problem if they "mistake" your meaning. In some cases, that's true. In others, it's a simple matter of being human. We learn things based on experience. When that experience consistently points to a certain thing having a certain meaning, and we see that being true for others in the same circumstance, it becomes a filter. Those filters are what make it possible to communicate with strangers. They become social conventions.

              Yes, you can break them. Doing so in a careless fashion has consequences, ranging from extreme reactions to simple misunderstandings. If you insist that others change to suit your style, you are going to be disappointed most of the time.


              Paul
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              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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              • Profile picture of the author TimGross
                On a side note, congrats on apparently inventing the term "primadonna squathead" by the way. :-) Not to be outdone, I've invented some of my own terms that I'm going to start using in casual conversation. There's clearly no way someone could read any implied meaning into them since I've just invented them:

                Arrogant buffnut
                Cocky sackhanger
                Pushy taintmonger
                Princess roidsquirrel
                Mooky zitpicker
                Sanctimonious plywoodsniffer

                This is fun! ...

                Now lets all hug and move on, you Peacenik Purrmuffins!

                (P.S. - "Taintmonger" is my favorite. The dot-com extension is available, who wants it, heh)
                OK, back to work...
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

                  On a side note, congrats on apparently inventing the term "primadonna squathead" by the way. :-) Not to be outdone, I've invented some of my own terms that I'm going to start using in casual conversation. There's clearly no way someone could read any implied meaning into them since I've just invented them:

                  Arrogant buffnut
                  Cocky sackhanger
                  Pushy taintmonger
                  Princess roidsquirrel
                  Mooky zitpicker
                  Sanctimonious plywoodsniffer

                  This is fun! ...

                  Now lets all hug and move on, you Peacenik Purrmuffins!

                  (P.S. - "Taintmonger" is my favorite. The dot-com extension is available, who wants it, heh)
                  OK, back to work...
                  Here's my vote:

                  Arrogant buffnut
                  Cocky sackhanger

                  They're in my swipe file now.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Caliban,

                You have, throughout this thread, used terms and phrases that the majority of people consider to be fairly emotionally packed. I can list them for you, if you'd like.
                .
                .
                . Edited Out
                .

                Yes, you can break them. Doing so in a careless fashion has consequences, ranging from extreme reactions to simple misunderstandings. If you insist that others change to suit your style, you are going to be disappointed most of the time.

                Paul
                Damn...I wish I could say stuff THAT good!
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                If you sound angry or annoyed, based on general social conventions for how certain words are used, that will color how people interpret your comments.
                I don't sound anything in text.

                You're reading my text out loud in your head, and inserting your own nonverbal communication into it, which you made up.

                Yes, it is possible for any communication to sound angry. All you have to do is pretend. And if you choose to pretend that I'm angry, that's up to you - but you don't get to complain that I'm unreasonable because of SOMETHING YOU MADE UP.

                You may suggest that it's the reader's problem if they "mistake" your meaning.
                No, it's the reader's problem if they INVENT a meaning and then pretend that meaning came from anywhere except their own imagination.

                It's the readers problem when I say "if this, then that" and they completely ignore the first half of the sentence. This lack of basic reading comprehension is called "stupid," and I am not responsible for stupid.

                I say the words that I say because they mean things. You don't get to add your own words and ignore some of mine because you'd like it to mean something else.

                If I say things very clearly and precisely with no room for misinterpretation, every post I make is a page and a half long, and nobody reads the whole thing anyway; they just read the parts that make them feel like they want to feel, and then act like it was all my fault.

                If I say things concisely and elegantly, relying on common human knowledge and experience, everybody just assumes they can add whatever garbage they feel like adding until they can feel the way they want to feel - and then act like it was all my fault.

                There is no working middle ground. All you do is change how many of which people you get. But they're all stupid, and they're all wrong, and they can all piss off.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  I don't sound anything in text.

                  You're reading my text out loud in your head, and inserting your own nonverbal communication into it, which you made up.

                  Yes, it is possible for any communication to sound angry. All you have to do is pretend. And if you choose to pretend that I'm angry, that's up to you - but you don't get to complain that I'm unreasonable because of SOMETHING YOU MADE UP.



                  No, it's the reader's problem if they INVENT a meaning and then pretend that meaning came from anywhere except their own imagination.

                  It's the readers problem when I say "if this, then that" and they completely ignore the first half of the sentence. This lack of basic reading comprehension is called "stupid," and I am not responsible for stupid.

                  I say the words that I say because they mean things. You don't get to add your own words and ignore some of mine because you'd like it to mean something else.

                  If I say things very clearly and precisely with no room for misinterpretation, every post I make is a page and a half long, and nobody reads the whole thing anyway; they just read the parts that make them feel like they want to feel, and then act like it was all my fault.

                  If I say things concisely and elegantly, relying on common human knowledge and experience, everybody just assumes they can add whatever garbage they feel like adding until they can feel the way they want to feel - and then act like it was all my fault.

                  There is no working middle ground. All you do is change how many of which people you get. But they're all stupid, and they're all wrong, and they can all piss off.

                  Caliban, I get what you're saying. Problem is...that is how people are.

                  They're going to interpret things based on the words you use and their
                  interpretation of those words based on, well, on a whole lotta sh*t that
                  is beyond that scope of this discussion.

                  You can say to somebody, "have a nice day" but if the just buried their
                  only child they're going to look at you and say, "What are you some kind
                  of a wise guy."

                  You're expecting people to essentially behave like robots with no feelings
                  towards the words themselves.

                  People can't do that. I can't do that. I don't know anybody who can
                  unless they just don't give a sh*t about anything.

                  In other words...what you're talking about is basic human nature.

                  Do you really think it's going to change?
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                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  There is no working middle ground. All you do is change how many of which people you get. But they're all stupid, and they're all wrong, and they can all piss off.
                  Thank you.

                  I'll take that as a compliment...

                  ~Bill
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                    Thank you.

                    I'll take that as a compliment...

                    ~Bill

                    You should Bill, you should...
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                    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      You should Bill, you should...
                      I do Thomas, I do.

                      ~Bill
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                        I do Thomas, I do.

                        ~Bill
                        Hmm...

                        I just got divorced and not really ready for that kind of commitment. How about we just be friends.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                          Hmm...

                          I just got divorced and not really ready for that kind of commitment. How about we just be friends.
                          And here I thought you were different. But you're just like all the rest of them.

                          My mother was right...

                          ~Bill
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                • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  There is no working middle ground. All you do is change how many of which people you get. But they're all stupid, and they're all wrong, and they can all piss off.
                  I thought this was how you felt, but I was convinced that I made that perspective up myself, so it's interesting to see you say it yourself.
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                  nothing to see here.

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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Caliban,

                I said:And you replied:There's a disconnect between what I wrote and your reply. We may be talking past each other at this point. Or I may not be as clear as I'd like. This does relate to the original topic, so I'll restate it from a different (and more relevant) angle.

                You have, throughout this thread, used terms and phrases that the majority of people consider to be fairly emotionally packed. I can list them for you, if you'd like.

                Using those sorts of phrases is a direct route to creating an emotional response in the reader. If you don't intend or desire to create those specific responses, you should try to be more aware of how you use such terms. If you choose not to be alert for them, you should not be surprised when you get a particular type of comment in return.

                If you sound angry or annoyed, based on general social conventions for how certain words are used, that will color how people interpret your comments. If that is a regular and consistent thing, it will develop that interpretation into a habit for your readers.

                In the absence of context and history, such as occurred with the "JV" email in the OP, those types of words and phrasings control the response to a larger degree. Even lacking the scammy sounding comment about a million dollar bonus, that email was riddled with word choices and assumptions that guaranteed it would fail.

                The intent of the sender is irrelevant in that case. It's not a situation where he's likely to get a chance to clarify. The only difference in a forum is that you get that chance. If you don't use it, you reinforce the impressions.

                You may suggest that it's the reader's problem if they "mistake" your meaning. In some cases, that's true. In others, it's a simple matter of being human. We learn things based on experience. When that experience consistently points to a certain thing having a certain meaning, and we see that being true for others in the same circumstance, it becomes a filter. Those filters are what make it possible to communicate with strangers. They become social conventions.

                Yes, you can break them. Doing so in a careless fashion has consequences, ranging from extreme reactions to simple misunderstandings. If you insist that others change to suit your style, you are going to be disappointed most of the time.


                Paul

                Why bother?

                He knows better and let him continue to be "misunderstood" and not know why.

                Either way we all go on with our businesses trying to make the most out of it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Thomas,
                  Why bother?
                  A lot of people will read this. Some of them may find something useful in it. That's why.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Caliban,
                    I don't sound anything in text.
                    Look up the words 'literal' and 'colloquial' and note the distinctions. They're quite handy for a professional communicator. Like, for instance, a writer...
                    You're reading my text out loud in your head, and inserting your own nonverbal communication into it, which you made up.
                    No. The reader is associating the socially normative meanings to those words and phrases. This is a necessary component to communication, not some whimsical intent on the part of your audience.
                    you don't get to complain that I'm unreasonable because of SOMETHING YOU MADE UP.
                    If you expect people to abandon the evidence of years of experience with other humans in order to translate your sloppy word choices, you are being unreasonable.

                    Humans are social critters, not computer programs.
                    This lack of basic reading comprehension is called "stupid," and I am not responsible for stupid.
                    In the types of instances I'm discussing, yes. You are. But not on the part of the reader.

                    For anyone who claims to be a writer to ignore the reality of both literal meanings and connotative lading is irresponsible. If you wish to make a point understood, you must make it in language the reader understands. That includes more than the matter of English or German or Farsi.
                    There is no working middle ground.
                    Of course there is. Two, actually. The first is called 'social convention.' The second, 'conversation.'
                    All you do is change how many of which people you get. But they're all stupid, and they're all wrong, and they can all piss off.
                    So, if you use words that the majority of people associate with anger and they don't understand that you're not angry, they're stupid?

                    It's true that you can never get it perfect for every possible reader. That's something any writer has to learn to accept. It is not true that people are all/mostly stupid, though. Not by a very long stretch.

                    If it were, how do you explain the folks who manage to somehow communicate their message clearly to the vast majority of people who read it, without having these problems?


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                    Hi CDarklock,

                    I don't sound anything in text.

                    You're reading my text out loud in your head, and inserting your own nonverbal communication into it, which you made up.

                    Yes, it is possible for any communication to sound angry. All you have to do is pretend. And if you choose to pretend that I'm angry, that's up to you - but you don't get to complain that I'm unreasonable because of SOMETHING YOU MADE UP.
                    If what you are saying was universally correct (not just applying to yourself), all successful copywriters, novelists and pure text based writers of any kind would have only found success through pure chance, because the readers of their words happened to decide to 'make up' similar non-verbal communication from their words.
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                      If what you are saying was universally correct (not just applying to yourself), all successful copywriters, novelists and pure text based writers of any kind would have only found success through pure chance
                      No, it's because they're willfully collaborating with the reader to create an emotional context.

                      You can still get the wrong idea from their work. People do it all the time. There's this constant debate going on in colleges across the world about whether that idea is still something you can get from their work.

                      And it is. You can take whatever emotional content you want out of someone else's work. But you cannot blame them for what you got from it. You can only blame them for what they tried to put into it. All blame (and credit) for anything else belongs to the people who produced it.
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                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Caliban,
                        No, it's because they're willfully collaborating with the reader to create an emotional context.

                        You can still get the wrong idea from their work. People do it all the time. There's this constant debate going on in colleges across the world about whether that idea is still something you can get from their work.

                        And it is. You can take whatever emotional content you want out of someone else's work. But you cannot blame them for what you got from it. You can only blame them for what they tried to put into it. All blame (and credit) for anything else belongs to the people who produced it.
                        You still don't get it, do you?

                        Even if what you say was completely true, it does not matter. It does not change the fact that you are responsible for expressing yourself in ways that are readily understood by your audience, to the degree that you care about them receiving the same message that you intended to send.

                        That is certainly possible. I do it every day, as do thousands of other people here, and untold millions more throughout the world who make their livings communicating.

                        In terms of raw intelligence, I'd guess that you're in a very high percentile of that group. If all those people who don't have your intellect, experience and training can do it, so can you. If you choose to.

                        If you choose not to do so, that's not a matter of "blame" on anyone's part. It's the consequence of your choice.

                        It most emphatically does NOT mean that those other people are stupid, lazy or arrogant. No matter what you or anyone else might suggest, being different does not, by itself, make you superior. It just makes you different.


                        Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Kelly.

                          I hear ya on the imitation thing. I don't get that much myself, because my style isn't as easy to caricature as the Rich Jerk persona, but I get one often that you've probably seen as well.

                          "Hi, Paul. I'm a subscriber to your list and really love your stuff. Blah blah. By the way, while I've got your attention... [insert pitch for MLM offer here]."

                          Hmm... Lessee... Oh. How interesting. They signed up for the list 10 minutes before they sent that note. Gee, they're insightful to figure me out that quickly!

                          Or one I got last Thursday that went on at length about how great their product was and how they were looking forward to promoting for me when their launch was over... Yeah. Right. I asked who recommended me to them and got this response:

                          "Sorry I actually can't remember the exact name I have been traveling to alot of events as of late and had a solid list of people that people had recommended.

                          "I am now getting my travels under control and had time to reach out to some of the people on this list, you being one of them."


                          Yeah. Right. I haven't been a name that comes up at seminars in 6 years or so. And my friends know that I don't promote many launches at all. I can only think of two that I've plugged in the past 3 or 4 years.

                          A quick Googling yielded a more useful explanation. This person has been partners with another fellow who added me to his "JV list" without my asking, and who also could not explain where he got the idea I was into promoting product launches.

                          A lie is always such a great way to open a new relationship.

                          I'm with you on the "What's in it for my subscribers" issue. Sell me on that first. Then we can talk about the rest.


                          Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author agc
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Even if what you say was completely true, it does not matter. It does not change the fact that you are responsible for expressing yourself in ways that are readily understood by your audience, to the degree that you care about them receiving the same message that you intended to send.
                          While what you say is true, it is also true that offense cannot truly be given, it must be taken.

                          People CHOOSE to take offense to something. They have the CHOICE not to.

                          While I agree with the part of your position where you say certain language is likely to trigger a reaction, I disagree with your position that the listener has no responsibility for how they choose to react.

                          Even when the majority choose to react the say way, that does not necessarily make that reaction correct or productive or even morally right.

                          This is the part that you are so slickly glossing over... the part where the listener has to also be rational in order to have a "rational discussion".
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            I disagree with your position that the listener has no responsibility for how they choose to react.
                            Exactly where did I express anything like that opinion? Please provide a quote, as I don't recall saying that, or anything like it.

                            Ever. Anywhere.


                            Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author agc
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              Exactly where did I express anything like that opinion? Please provide a quote, as I don't recall saying that, or anything like it.

                              Ever. Anywhere.


                              Paul
                              It's not what you explicitly stated, rather it's the unspoken premise behind your position...

                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              If you sound angry or annoyed, based on general social conventions for how certain words are used, that will color how people interpret your comments.
                              Now maybe you merely meant to be helpful and to lead someone to improved communication skills. But in the process you also give the impression that he is responsible for the reactions that the readers choose to have.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                                It's not what you explicitly stated, rather it's the unspoken premise behind your position...

                                You are reading into the words he written.

                                Maybe it is your need to be correct or the game you seem to be playing or just good ole forum trolling.

                                That is the same thing you and Caliban have been talking about, correct?
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                                • Profile picture of the author agc
                                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                  You are reading into the words he written.

                                  Maybe it is your need to be correct or the game you seem to be playing or just good ole forum trolling.

                                  That is the same thing you and Caliban have been talking about, correct?
                                  Well his entire position is that one should EXPECT people to read into words.

                                  So should he be held to that standard that he is promoting?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by agc View Post

                                    Well his entire position is that one should EXPECT people to read into words.

                                    So should he be held to that standard that he is promoting?
                                    Twisting again I see.

                                    Your premise is the opposite and shouldn't we hold you to that standard?

                                    It seems you have just proven Paul's point of view.

                                    pots, kettles, and grammas little lesssons.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                      Actually he was assuming the opposite, and he specifically said as much, namely that he's _not_ discussing those who lack the capacity to understand, and is instead discussion those (presumed normal people) who are choosing to interpret as they see fit.
                                      Context, my anonymous friend.

                                      Was it not Caliban who said that all people are stupid and can all piss off? And me who defended the intelligence of the majority?

                                      He flips in one sentence of a single post and you lose the entire thread? Read first, sir, then respond.
                                      Well his entire position is that one should EXPECT people to read into words.

                                      So should he be held to that standard that he is promoting?
                                      I expect that people will, on the whole, read commonly understood meanings into the words and phrasings I choose to employ. I write rather a lot, and rarely have the communication problems that Caliban himself has said plague him. When I notice that a person seems to be using words in the common way and missing my point, I accept responsibility for that and attempt to clarify. I don't start talking about blame.

                                      So yeah. I expect to be held to the standard I preach. If I fail in it, I starve.

                                      Ain't starvin' yet.


                                      Paul
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                                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                                  Thomas,

                                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                  You are reading into the words he written.
                                  How dare you insult my mother like that!



                                  Frank
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                                    Thomas,



                                    How dare you insult my mother like that!



                                    Frank

                                    Much apologies to your mother, Read Written Donovan.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                It's not what you explicitly stated, rather it's the unspoken premise behind your position...
                                That was a complete invention on your part.
                                Now maybe you merely meant to be helpful and to lead someone to improved communication skills. But in the process you also give the impression that he is responsible for the reactions that the readers choose to have.
                                To a significant degree, he is. A very significant degree. That does not mean, nor did I ever say or imply, that he controls it absolutely.

                                Again, we are not computer programs.

                                Not all reactions are choices. If I walk up to a complete stranger on the street and start swearing viciously at them, their initial reaction is not a choice. They're going to have involuntary responses based on things more fundamental than reason.

                                Would you like me to demonstrate (after some much needed sleep) where Caliban reacted out of those same factors in this thread? Or would you like to look them up yourself?


                                Paul
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                                • Profile picture of the author agc
                                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                  If I walk up to a complete stranger on the street and start swearing viciously at them, their initial reaction is not a choice.
                                  Actually, and this get directly to the point I was working towards, their reaction is 100% absolutely undeniably their own personal choice.

                                  If they are unable to maintain control and make a rational choice in that moment it is ONLY because they have not chosen in their life to learn that ability.

                                  Talk to any black belt (or teaching master) in any martial art if you would like a more detailed explanation.

                                  Just because not everyone works to develop any sort of emotional control, does not transfer responsibility for the emotional reactions.

                                  The fact that they have not chosen to evolve their ability to manage their reactions does not in any way change the fact that said reactions are still 100% their own choice, or that they are, in fact, having reactions.
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                        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          you are responsible for expressing yourself in ways that are readily understood by your audience
                          I am not discussing people who do not understand because they lack the capacity.

                          I am discussing people who have willfully chosen to ignore or invent things so they can pretend they understand.

                          Which is both wrong and stupid.

                          And there's a point where I simply have to say that I just plain don't care anymore.

                          Which, I believe, is right about here.
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                          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Caliban,
                            I am not discussing people who do not understand because they lack the capacity.
                            Neither was I. The problem here is that you assume that anyone who doesn't get your ideas despite your non-standard word choices is somehow intellectually lacking.

                            That is a level of arrogance to which even I do not aspire.


                            Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author agc
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              Caliban,Neither was I. The problem here is that you assume that anyone who doesn't get your ideas despite your non-standard word choices is somehow intellectually lacking.

                              That is a level of arrogance to which even I do not aspire.

                              Paul
                              Actually he was assuming the opposite, and he specifically said as much, namely that he's _not_ discussing those who lack the capacity to understand, and is instead discussion those (presumed normal people) who are choosing to interpret as they see fit.

                              And here you accuse him of the opposite, and imply arrogance in the process?

                              Again, pots, kettles, and grammas little lesssons.
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        • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
          From the tenor of some of the responses, especially Paul's, I gather that addressing him as "King of the Internet", "Master of all he surveys", and "Your Magnificence" would be too deferential as an approach?
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        • Profile picture of the author JasonValens
          I wouldn't be surprised if the name at the bottom was Barrister Ngundo Baruto
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Rufus
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Change it? I'd scrap it and start from scratch.

        If I were to send you a JV proposal, it would read something like this.

        Subject - From Steven Wagenheim - Something You Might Like To Consider

        Hi Paul:

        I don't know if you know me or not so let me briefly introduce myself.

        My name is Steven Wagenheim and I've been marketing online for a little
        over 7 years. I have also been following your newsletter for quite some time.
        It is very obvious that you are one of the more intelligent people in this
        business and look forward to every issue you put out.

        I don't normally send out JV emails but after seeing your newsletter
        and getting a good feel for what you do, I think the product I have will
        be a nice fit for your list, but I'll let you be the judge.

        I perfectly understand if you don't have the time or even the inclination
        to promote this. I, more than anyone, know how annoying JV offers can
        be sometime.

        So to make this more appealing to you, I have put together a full
        promotional packet for you, though you will probably want to create
        your own promotional materials. This packet also contains a copy of
        the product.

        I will only send it to you upon your request.

        I offer a 75% commission for my special JV partners (50% for everyone
        else) on a $197 product. I figure if you're going to promote something,
        it should be at least worth your time.

        If you are interested, you can reach me at:

        email address
        phone number
        skype

        If you prefer to talk, I've included the last two contacts.

        I look forward to hear from you but in no way want you to feel
        obligated.

        In the meantime, if there is anything that I can do for you personally,
        please don't hesitate to ask.

        In either case, I love your newsletter and look forward to your next issue.

        Sincerely,

        Steven Wagenheim

        _______________________

        Now, that's just off the top of my head and I might have left something
        important out (not sure without going over it in detail) but that is
        pretty much what I'd do

        Comments?

        Steve, you're a true writer.

        The guy who wrote the original message really believes that it would be Paul's honour to promote his product/opportunity.

        He needs to remember that with JV requests the power is not who holds the product, the power is with those who control the traffic, he needs to keep that in mind.

        If his opportunity was so good, he wouldn't need you Paul as his JV partner.

        Thanks for the post though.

        A true lesson in how to NOT do things.

        Reach new heights

        Nathan
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Yo, Paul...

    You = got a list

    Me = need rent money

    You dig?
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    I want to see what everyone else has to say, but there's one thing that surprises in these comments so far:

    No-one brought up the unbelievable idea that someone with this kind of approach is promising a "$1 mil" bonus. That, by itself, screams "Scam!"


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author agc
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      I want to see what everyone else has to say, but there's one thing that surprises in these comments so far:

      No-one brought up the unbelievable idea that someone with this kind of approach is promising a "$1 mil" bonus. That, by itself, screams "Scam!"


      Paul
      Probably because the e-mail is so horribly written and unapproachable that nobody bothered to even look at the actual product or details?

      I know that's what happened on my end. I just quit paying attention after the first horrid sentence told me I have no interest in being associated with this person.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      I want to see what everyone else has to say, but there's one thing that surprises in these comments so far:

      No-one brought up the unbelievable idea that someone with this kind of approach is promising a "$1 mil" bonus. That, by itself, screams "Scam!"


      Paul
      I poked fun at it a bit in my reply. I thought calling it a scam would be pointing out the obvious.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
      OK, here's my pitch to you, Paul:

      Subject: Your yet to throw darts = 100 +

      Hi Myers, I know you spend all time shoot darts and drinky-drink. Smokey rooms, ugly hats, u laugh good there but next day no money for landlord lady with angry eyes.

      Why you no exploit list more? Darts not free, but you just talk talk talk talk talk and give good ideas free like chump. They make money but you not so much. You need leave bartender man good tip! You mail for me not like dum-dum, you make $1 mil bonus this month, you buy next round at bar, people not avoid you so much there anymore. You buy darts not bent, maybe even win now sometimes, make you big man.

      -------
      Editor's note: I learned how to JV pitch like that from your newsletter today, about focusing on your "Ultimate Benefit" and the "Ultimate You". :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      No-one brought up the unbelievable idea that someone with this kind of approach is promising a "$1 mil" bonus. That, by itself, screams "Scam!"


      Paul
      Yeah thats the thing that stood out to me when I got the same offer. Then there was the your loss thing. Disaster from beginning to end. First thing I want to hear is not the money its what you are offering that I would want to put in front of my customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Why am I the only one that thinks this is a Nigerian scam?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rogers
    1. f u kent rite n inglesh, fine sumwon hoo kin.

    2. Provide a brief description of your offer, and how it would benefit the potential JV partner's customers.

    3. How is it converting? (provide some real numbers) What's the price point, what percentage commission are you offering, what kind of special deal are you willing to offer your potential JV partner's customers?

    4. Don't hype or bullshlt or exaggerate.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?
    Subject: Your unread messages = 100 + this one

    Body:
    Mr. Myers,

    I hear through our mutual associates that you are one of those "Internet guys" that makes more money in a month than I make all year.

    In spite of this, I understand you are having difficulties buying the chicken feed you need. It's a sad commentary on the state of affairs in this nation where farmers must resort to Internet marketing just to stay in operation and, even then, they still have trouble covering all their needs.

    However, I think I may be able to help you out with a JV opportunity. In fact, if you have a list of 1,500,000 subscribers and assume a 2% conversion rate, this JV could be worth a million dollars to you. I don't know about your farm situation, but I would think $1,000,000 would be a big help to you.

    My product has been on the market for several months now and I believe it to be an excellent fit for your subscriber base. I am prepared to offer you a 75% commission. Although no one has yet purchased my product, the upside is that there is a 0% refund rate.

    Agriculture has played an important role in the history of our country and I'd like to do my small part to help keep that history alive. Mr. Myers, I'd like to help you keep your farm running and, just as importantly, feed your chickens.

    I look forward to hearing from you to discuss this JV.

    Regards,
    Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Subject: You gots to see this shnitzel!

      Body:

      Yo Myer Dag,


      I gots some killer newz man. I am about to gets u some benjamins, word.

      For sure this will be selling like hotcakes...

      Dawg, I am abotu to hook u up straight for pimping my wares...

      I be calling ur digits tomorrow.


      Best Regards,


      Thomas Belknap
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Subject: You gots to see this shnitzel!

        Body:

        Yo Myer Dag,


        I gots some killer newz man. I am about to gets u some benjamins, word.

        For sure this will be selling like hotcakes...

        Dawg, I am abotu to hook u up straight for pimping my wares...

        I be calling ur digits tomorrow.


        Best Regards,


        Thomas Belknap
        Perfect JV proposal up until you said "Best Regards." LOL :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Thomas,

        "Schnitzel?" "Dag?" "hotcakes?!"

        And... "Best regards?!?"

        Speaking as one middle-aged white guy to another... Just don't. You're embarrassing yourself.


        Paul

        PS: The scary thing is, your slang is better than his English.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Dan, you failed when you opened with Mr. Myers. Anyone who had any inkling of who Paul is would know what he thinks of being called "Mr.".

          I thought Sylvia's was the best of the lot for the serious contributions.

          Tina
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          • Profile picture of the author Rufus Steele
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

            Dan, you failed when you opened with Mr. Myers. Anyone who had any inkling of who Paul is would know what he thinks of being called "Mr.".

            Tina
            Tina,

            You are spot on there - but it still doesn't feel right starting a JV proposal with

            "Dear Lord Myers"
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            • This thread is 4 months old, just saying...

              Anyway, laughed at the email. subject line was clever indeed but the rest...how does someone expect to strike a JV with so much rubbish in the pm? Always amazed at people that put out stuff like that...
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    After reading all these other answers, I think I'd like to revise my JV email...


    ***

    Subject: GO, GO, GO

    Dear Myers,

    My million-dollar JV opportunity is now live. Join it here:

    [link]

    Go, go, go!

    Have Fun,
    Becky



    ***

    As for it being a scam...

    Yeah, I think folks were kind of hinting at that point (without directly saying it and getting called Cap't Obvious). For example, Kay's post:

    I am associate with the FBI and have permit of the FBI to tell you must respond within 24 hrs.
    cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author VegasGreg
    That was the exact same "what to send" section of that one WSO being offered called "How to land million dollar JVs and make $12,876,334 in the next 37 days".

    So I imagine we will all be receiving that email soon enough.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?
    I would have picked up the phone.

    I really don't like to make JV offers via email. If I want to do business with someone, I want them to know I took special and specific time to talk exclusively to them, one on one, without copying or pasting anything.

    Attention is the currency of the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      I would have picked up the phone.

      I really don't like to make JV offers via email. If I want to do business with someone, I want them to know I took special and specific time to talk exclusively to them, one on one, without copying or pasting anything.
      But you know what? What YOU like and what YOU want them to know isn't relevant.

      What's relevant is how the recipient wants to be approached.

      Some years back, there was a product on the market called "First Contact Secrets" by Chip Tarver. This product was great because it showed irrefutably that different marketers whom you might want to approach about a JV had quite different preferences. Some wanted to be called. Some preferred to be emailed. Others wanted to get a proposal in the mail.

      It's the same way, actually, when you are trying to get publicity. Some media gatekeepers want to be called and never respond to email, others want to be emailed and never respond to phone pitches. Others want to get their news leads only from the newswires. Etc.

      Your own preferences do not rule.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        What's relevant is how the recipient wants to be approached.
        ...says a likely recipient.

        What's relevant is that we are going into business together, albeit a business of limited scope and duration.

        I'm bringing something to the table. If you want me to jump through hoops before you'll bring anything to the table yourself, guess what?

        I don't need to JV with you.

        I can JV with someone else. Or, since I'm not a complete loser, I might just not do a JV at all.

        There are too many people out there who think that when they start to get the JV offers in their email, they have become some sort of rock star. If I'm sending you a JV offer, I don't think you're awesome and I barely deserve to lick your feet. I think we're peers. I see us as equals.

        And if you get all bound up in your bowl of green M&Ms, hey, buh-bye.
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        But you know what? What YOU like and what YOU want them to know isn't relevant.

        What's relevant is how the recipient wants to be approached.

        Some years back, there was a product on the market called "First Contact Secrets" by Chip Tarver. This product was great because it showed irrefutably that different marketers whom you might want to approach about a JV had quite different preferences. Some wanted to be called. Some preferred to be emailed. Others wanted to get a proposal in the mail.

        It's the same way, actually, when you are trying to get publicity. Some media gatekeepers want to be called and never respond to email, others want to be emailed and never respond to phone pitches. Others want to get their news leads only from the newswires. Etc.

        Your own preferences do not rule.

        Marcia Yudkin
        I'm only calling about a JV offer if I think we could have a mutually beneficial relationship.

        I'm not desperate, and I don't need to kiss the feet of anyone. So getting clearance for the "relevant approach" is not high on my list of things to look out for.

        If I get the phone slammed down on me.. or the person tells me not to call...

        I'm gone, and won't give it a second thought.

        Jay
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        Bare Murkage.........

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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Subject Line: How A Wombat Finally Got The Thud Factor

          Hi Paul,

          I have hesitated up until now to contact you because, having read a lot of your stuff, I wasn't sure if my products would match up to the high standards your list is used to.

          A lot of my previous stuff would have done Mrs Wombat proud. Less said the better.

          However, I think I have finally come up with something really "Thuddy" that would benefit your readers and it is reasonably priced at the usual Talkbiz $27.

          The product is . . . .

          I understand that a JV would benefit me much more than it would you.

          Plus you would be doolally to hand me your list on a platter, particularly as I have no track record to speak of, so here is what I propose . . . .
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Yup..

    I'm with CDarklock here.

    I probably would have called instead... e-mail JV offers are soooo 2007

    Jay
    Signature

    Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Got this one too today...

    Well, nothing wrong with a JV offers per email,

    BUT this one has many flaws.

    It reads very "bizarre" - and the biggest flaw is that the writer is "secretive" what the JV is actually about. That mail is bad on so many levels...
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    • Profile picture of the author theemperor
      Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

      Got this one too today...

      Well, nothing wrong with a JV offers per email,

      BUT this one has many flaws.

      It reads very "bizarre" - and the biggest flaw is that the writer is "secretive" what the JV is actually about. That mail is bad on so many levels...
      Yeah it has ""SCAM"" written all over it. Maybe the "JV" involves a Western Union Money transfer of $10,000.
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  • Profile picture of the author bocephus
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post



    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?


    Paul
    My first reaction was to say ... "Highlight the entire message and hit delete", but then it dawned on me...

    Is the chicken-feeds niche very lucrative?
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
      Hah I'm sure there are people making millions of dollars a year selling chicken feeds....probably not a bad niche to work in at all.

      I read that email - my good it screamed scam all over it. Apparently they have the money to pay $1 million top prize, but no ability to write a proper email...

      Paul, would you have been more receptive if that guy would have made a personal video proposal instead?
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Subject: You Mother

    Yo Myers
    Got a JV for you man

    get your people to call my people...we'll do lunch - like "toot sweet"

    Know you're busy Dude but this is killer

    Worth a million clams to you

    Do I have your attention yet?

    Myers, one word - "chicken-ass" - we can corner the market in barbequed chicken-ass. I kid you not.

    Remember fun?

    The Copy Nazi

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  • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
    Banned
    I would have taken a gun to your house, point it straight to your thick skull and command you to accept the offer or lose your life.

    Internet Marketing At His Best is the title of this movie.
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    • Profile picture of the author AllAboutAction
      Originally Posted by King Shiloh View Post

      I would have taken a gun to your house, point it straight to your thick skull and command you to accept the offer or lose your life.
      How's that working out for you?
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        I have to say, I hope Greg was kidding about that being taught in a WSO. That's horrible...

        Here's the funny thing. All those humorous approaches below would have stood a far better chance of getting my attention in a positive way than this one did. But only if they were coming from someone I knew, or someone whose reputation made them a good fit. Yes, even Dan's.

        And King Shiloh... No. Yours wasn't humorous. If it was intended to be, you failed. Miserably.

        Of the serious ones, Michael Hiles' first effort was the best. Of course, he had to go and edit it to something silly.

        They were all good, but there's something you folks might want to consider. If I got most of them, I'd wonder why anyone was kissing up to me like that. You want to try and find the balance between the rather pugnacious tone Caliban set and the fawning tone that I read in some of these. Mind you, I'm particularly ill-inclined toward anything that smacks of it, so my reaction might not be typical. I can tell you, though, that a lot of the people who get a bunch of these are similarly cautious of it.

        Marcia makes an excellent point. Saying "I prefer to work in a certain way" is not putting anyone down or treating them as less than you. It's saying only that: The person prefers to work a certain way.

        If you approach me with that "We'll do it my way or you're an arrogant ass" attitude, you're going nowehere. And I don't much care if you run around and tell the world I'm an arrogant ass. (Most of the ones who'd care already know that anyway.)

        Similarly, that doesn't mean you rule out your preferred approach. Do what works for you. Just keep in mind that it may not work for someone else, and that's okay.

        Sylvia has it exactly right, although I don't think you need to take years to cultivate those relationships.

        I've answered 3 serious JV requests in the past couple of days. One wanted to do a webinar for my subscribers. He's been a subscriber for 10 years or so, I think. A long time, at any rate. He occasionally sends me useful feedback, and we've spoken on the phone before. His topic doesn't seem to have the draw for my folks, but we'll work something out. He's smart, and has a lot to offer people. And he's fun.

        Another was from a guy who was one of the original contributors to my newsletter, waaaay back when. We've become good friends over the years. His stuff I will be promoting, both because he knows what he's talking about and because I trust him to treat my people right. And he's also fun to work with.

        The third guy has a private affiliate/JV system, and is among the top names in the business. It was an extremely professional and well-composed email, from his JV manager. I don't know the seller personally and have never even spoken to him, so I turned it down. More money, but it's not my style.

        There's not much that works better than a personal connection. That's why those humorous emails would have gotten my attention... They scream, "Hey! Human being over here!"


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I have to say, I hope Greg was kidding about that being taught in a WSO. That's horrible...

          Here's the funny thing. All those humorous approaches below would have stood a far better chance of getting my attention in a positive way than this one did. But only if they were coming from someone I knew, or someone whose reputation made them a good fit. Yes, even Dan's.

          And King Shiloh... No. Yours wasn't humorous. If it was intended to be, you failed. Miserably.

          Of the serious ones, Michael Hiles' first effort was the best. Of course, he had to go and edit it to something silly.

          They were all good, but there's something you folks might want to consider. If I got most of them, I'd wonder why anyone was kissing up to me like that. You want to try and find the balance between the rather pugnacious tone Caliban set and the fawning tone that I read in some of these. Mind you, I'm particularly ill-inclined toward anything that smacks of it, so my reaction might not be typical. I can tell you, though, that a lot of the people who get a bunch of these are similarly cautious of it.

          Marcia makes an excellent point. Saying "I prefer to work in a certain way" is not putting anyone down or treating them as less than you. It's saying only that: The person prefers to work a certain way.

          If you approach me with that "We'll do it my way or you're an arrogant ass" attitude, you're going nowehere. And I don't much care if you run around and tell the world I'm an arrogant ass. (Most of the ones who'd care already know that anyway.)

          Similarly, that doesn't mean you rule out your preferred approach. Do what works for you. Just keep in mind that it may not work for someone else, and that's okay.

          Sylvia has it exactly right, although I don't think you need to take years to cultivate those relationships.

          I've answered 3 serious JV requests in the past couple of days. One wanted to do a webinar for my subscribers. He's been a subscriber for 10 years or so, I think. A long time, at any rate. He occasionally sends me useful feedback, and we've spoken on the phone before. His topic doesn't seem to have the draw for my folks, but we'll work something out. He's smart, and has a lot to offer people. And he's fun.

          Another was from a guy who was one of the original contributors to my newsletter, waaaay back when. We've become good friends over the years. His stuff I will be promoting, both because he knows what he's talking about and because I trust him to treat my people right. And he's also fun to work with.

          The third guy has a private affiliate/JV system, and is among the top names in the business. It was an extremely professional and well-composed email, from his JV manager. I don't know the seller personally and have never even spoken to him, so I turned it down. More money, but it's not my style.

          There's not much that works better than a personal connection. That's why those humorous emails would have gotten my attention... They scream, "Hey! Human being over here!"


          Paul
          Sorry, the thread seemed to be going in the general direction towards goof... when in Rome...
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Michael,
            when in Rome...
            That whole thing about Cincinnati being built on seven hills... That's not to be taken so seriously...


            Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
            Good to read thread. Keeps this place hopping.

            Last summer I consulted with a small successful company with a 30 year track record which was "winding down" the business. They had assets which would have created good products for possible JV.

            The owner wanted to find ONLINE partners with lists which would have the most interest in these products.

            We located about 21 we considered good matches and started to contact these in increments of 7, thinking when any ONE of the first 7 showed interest, we would consider exclusivity.

            We made our initial contact via FED EX or Priority USPS Mail with a few "samples" of our prouducts and gave our contact information, Phone # and email, and also told them we would be contacting them in a few days.

            3 of the 7 called us immediately and 2 set up appointments to discuss this further, and within a 10 day period. Three others sent email, one did not respond, but we called him anyhow.

            Since this was an established and fairly well known company these potential JV partners would recognize, we felt getting their attention would be the easy part, and it was.

            For the sake of this discussion, I'll condense the reactions BUT the point is, we were willing to accomodate their schedules and their preferences.

            Also, the first 7 names on our list would be readily identified by most Warriors, we were dealing with the upper echelon of IM. We were able to TALK to 6 of the 7 within a two week period and there was ONE which was totally unique (and interesting too).

            This was Dan Kennedy. He had some of the highest interest in the project, but, he has his own way of doing things. We had to contact his secretary via FAX, she would set up a date which he would approve of and give us a 20 minute phone call at the given time. The appointment was about six weeks later.

            So we mailed out the next 7 packages to continue looking for a good JV partner, with the idea that Dan Kennedy would be either a yes/no and we would reserve exclusivity until we at least talked to him.

            Point Gordon??

            We were doing the fishing. We baited the hook with what our fish would eat, in other words we tried very hard to accomodate their ways and means of doing business.

            We found that some preferred email, others wanted FAXES, still others wanted to talk on the phone. Whichever way THEY preferred became our modus operandi.

            Now your experience may be different, but what I'm always going to do and make my clients do, is to do it the way the potential JV partner wants to do it. Once you have them on the hook, you still have to reel em in. Until they get on board, you're still just fishing.

            And with JV's, it only takes one "Whale" to feed you for a long, long time.

            Doing it this way (communicating how THEY wanted to do it)...we were able to get a 100% response from potential Joint Venture partners.

            gjabiz

            PS. IF I were to approach Paul or Marcia or anyone else on the WF, it would follow a similar "pattern" of contact until they told me which they preferred. Some may think that a huge crashing intrusion like a FED EX package might make some angry...I find that being professional with professionals tends to have a reciprocal effect.
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            • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
              We found that some preferred email, others wanted FAXES, still others wanted to talk on the phone. Whichever way THEY preferred became our modus operandi.
              Smart! Very smart!

              I am sure most Warriors would not imagine that anyone they might want to contact for a JV might prefer being faxed in 2010. But Gordon's story shows that there are truly all kinds of preferences out there.

              Marcia Yudkin
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            • Profile picture of the author agc
              Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

              PS. IF I were to approach Paul or Marcia or anyone else on the WF, it would follow a similar "pattern" of contact until they told me which they preferred. Some may think that a huge crashing intrusion like a FED EX package might make some angry...I find that being professional with professionals tends to have a reciprocal effect.
              Excellent post. Being professional with a professional ALWAYS has reciprocal effect.

              If not, it tells you what kind of so called "professional" you are dealing with.
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              • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
                It's always about the money.

                Whoever has a better offer will get attention first.
                Actually, as a blanket statement, that is dead wrong.

                Many of my colleagues (and I) routinely turn down JV offers that lead with the money and say nothing about how the JV would benefit our existing customer base.

                Marcia Yudkin
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            Sorry, the thread seemed to be going in the general direction towards goof... when in Rome...
            I must have missed the 1st effort but I really dug the second effort.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          the rather pugnacious tone Caliban set
          Pugnacious?

          "If I want to do business with someone, I want them to know I took special and specific time to talk exclusively to them..."

          What's wrong with that? I treat you like an equal, and I expect to be treated like one.

          "I don't like phone calls!" is a valid perspective. But if I do like phone calls, we have a sort of Mexican standoff here. If you don't have enough respect for me and what I like, why should I take special pains about you and what you like? Shouldn't you be every bit as willing to bend YOUR preferences and do what makes ME feel comfortable?

          And if not, what the hell kind of partner are you going to be?

          I don't have to settle for that kind of treatment, so I won't. Throw a hissy fit about how I contact you, and I'll just plain not contact you anymore.

          Nothing pugnacious about it. You have every right to demand special treatment, and I have every right to say "no."
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Pugnacious?

            "If I want to do business with someone, I want them to know I took special and specific time to talk exclusively to them..."

            What's wrong with that? I treat you like an equal, and I expect to be treated like one.

            "I don't like phone calls!" is a valid perspective. But if I do like phone calls, we have a sort of Mexican standoff here. If you don't have enough respect for me and what I like, why should I take special pains about you and what you like? Shouldn't you be every bit as willing to bend YOUR preferences and do what makes ME feel comfortable?

            And if not, what the hell kind of partner are you going to be?

            I don't have to settle for that kind of treatment, so I won't. Throw a hissy fit about how I contact you, and I'll just plain not contact you anymore.

            Nothing pugnacious about it. You have every right to demand special treatment, and I have every right to say "no."
            If you plan on working with someone it makes sense to be more flexible instead of your standoffish behavior.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              If you plan on working with someone it makes sense to be more flexible instead of your standoffish behavior.
              Good point!

              I would like to discuss this on the phone.

              You would like to discuss this via email.

              How should we discuss it?

              Does either of us get to say "it's my way or else!" to the other?

              I certainly don't think so. In fact, I think if either of us tries to tell the other how things are going to be done or else, this JV is doomed.
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Good point!

                I would like to discuss this on the phone.

                You would like to discuss this via email.

                How should we discuss it?

                Does either of us get to say "it's my way or else!" to the other?

                I certainly don't think so. In fact, I think if either of us tries to tell the other how things are going to be done or else, this JV is doomed.
                It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

                Paul has a large list and knows what it is worth. If you are trying to pitch a product to Paul then it will more than likely be shot down unless you do it his way.

                He knows his list better then you do and should know how the product would fit and the best way to present it.

                You need Paul more then he needs you in this scenario.

                Now if you were partnering on a product together and each brings the same value of skills, yes I would agree with your consensus about working together.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  He knows his list better then you do and should know how the product would fit and the best way to present it.
                  I know the product better than he does, and should know why the list will be interested and the best way to present it.

                  And if I don't, I'm not going to be running around making JV offers.
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                  • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
                    Paul has a large list and knows what it is worth. If you are trying to pitch a product to Paul then it will more than likely be shot down unless you do it his way.

                    You need Paul more then he needs you in this scenario.
                    That's exactly right. Most of the time when someone is proposing a JV to someone else, the dynamics are like that. It is certainly that way in the examples we're critiquing in this thread.

                    It's not like the person with the large list is being autocratic or capricious. Rather, it is a matter of how you will, realistically, get their attention and how you will not. It seems rather self-defeating if you insist on doing it your way instead of their way.

                    Marcia Yudkin
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Caliban,

                      I'm not even going to bother with the emotional content of your replies. I'm going to refer you back to your own words, with which I happen to agree: Attention is the currency of the future.

                      If you approach someone uninvited, you're the guest, and you're asking for their attention. If I am the one making the approach, the burden falls on me. Whoever starts the conversation has a social duty to do so in a way that's convenient for the other person. If they start a relationship with the idea that the other guy owes them something, they're going to get what they deserve. Ignored.

                      No attention.

                      That's the thing that made Michael's first example contact email so good. It allowed the recipient to choose which way they wanted the details, if they wanted them at all. And it assumed nothing.


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                      • Profile picture of the author TimGross
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Attention is the currency of the future. If you approach someone uninvited, you're the guest, and you're asking for their attention.
                        To continue with this concept, when Caliban said, "...We have a sort of Mexican standoff here", it's only a standoff if both parties CARE but can't work out how to resolve it. Otherwise there's nothing to try to resolve, one gunman just walks away.

                        When talking about JV partners being on equal footing, it's also important to keep in mind that just because YOU think you're on equal footing with them (ie, you believe you bring as much to the table as your potential JV partner) doesn't mean that they agree.

                        A possibly similar example: Let's say you want to ask someone out on a date. In your opinion from what you can see you believe you're both about the same level of attractiveness and social status, so you believe you both "bring the same amount to the table". ...As anyone trying and failing to ask someone on a date knows, it's not what YOU think, it's what they think. :-)
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        I'm not even going to bother with the emotional content of your replies.
                        There is none.

                        Most people have trouble understanding that. This is about a purely logical principle.

                        If you approach someone uninvited, you're the guest
                        And if I approach someone to invite them, THEY'RE the guest.

                        The entire problem here is that nobody is stopping to think about the human being on the other side of the conversation. If I approach you for a JV, that is not another data point on a graph. It is a human being, just like you, and whatever rights you think you have - they're exactly the same on the other side of the conversation.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Caliban,
                          Most people have trouble understanding that. This is about a purely logical principle.
                          If I accept that, for the sake of discussion, I also have to accept that it's purely a coincidence that you regularly and consistently choose modes of expression to which other people assign combative connotations, without being aware of it or choosing it.

                          Okay. For the sake of discussion only.
                          And if I approach someone to invite them, THEY'RE the guest.
                          That's not how it works, dude. You call my phone or email me uninvited, you're a guest. Using Tim's dating analogy, the thinking you're espousing amounts to acting like you're doing someone a favor by asking them out.

                          Yeah. That'll work with anyone worth dating...
                          The entire problem here is that nobody is stopping to think about the human being on the other side of the conversation.
                          Oh? Your reading comprehension skills aren't up to snuff this evening.
                          If I approach you for a JV, that is not another data point on a graph. It is a human being, just like you, and whatever rights you think you have - they're exactly the same on the other side of the conversation.
                          Rights? There are no "rights" involved. The whole process is a social one.

                          I was raised to be gracious both as a host and a guest. I was also taught that there are different sets of expectations for each, and that neither was the superior position. Part of that set of old-fashioned manners is the concept that when you ask for something, you do so with respect for the person you're asking.

                          If you believe that someone is your peer and equal, you treat them in the way you would appreciate being treated. You acknowledge their humanity and their worth through your actions. THAT is what respect is all about. Not fancy words, plastic posturing or formulaic phrasing.

                          If I offer someone a business deal, that's still subject to those same guidelines. The Big One is simple: "No," for whatever reason and however expressed, is always an acceptable answer. That is the fundamental baseline rule for the maintenance of a civilized society. Any argument with the right to say "No" is tantamount to a demand, and is unacceptable.

                          Note that I didn't say reasonably expressed counterproposal. I said argument with the right to say it.

                          Graciousness is, unfortunately, becoming a lost art.


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                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                            Here's the way I look at it. Some will agree, some won't.

                            If I approach Frank Kern for a JV, one of the most successful marketers on
                            the planet, I am damn well going to bend over backwards to be courteous
                            and approach him in a way where he is in complete control of the situation.

                            However, he wants to be contacted, called, whatever...it's done.

                            Reverse it...Frank Kern approaches me for a JV.

                            I'm damn well going to bend over backwards for him yet again.

                            In my opinion, whoever brings more to the table gets to be treated special.

                            Now of course, Frank Kern would never approach me for a JV, but if by
                            some miracle he did, don't you think if he said "jump" I would say how high?

                            You have to understand the person you're dealing with realistically.

                            It's the same with dating.

                            If I want to ask the hot girl out and I look like Quasi Moto, I better pull
                            out all the stops and make her feel special.

                            If by some miracle she asks me out (okay, maybe she's rip roaring drunk)
                            then same thing...I better treat her like gold.

                            If it's two relative equals then the person doing the approaching is, as
                            Paul says, the guest and should do things the way the person they are
                            approaching wants to do them.

                            That's my feeling on the whole thing. Again, some will agree and some
                            won't. But for me, if I can JV with Donald Trump, I don't care if he's
                            calling me because my Aunt Matilda just happened to save his life.

                            He's still Donald Trump and I'm just, well, me.

                            I do the bending...and will do it until my back breaks if I have to.
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                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            I also have to accept that it's purely a coincidence that you regularly and consistently choose modes of expression to which other people assign combative connotations, without being aware of it or choosing it.
                            It's not coincidence. People start fights with me, and then complain that I'm combative when I fight back.

                            Most people don't have any real convictions. I do. If I say "I believe X," you can bet your arse I actually believe it. Nobody is going to come in here and stomp all over what I think simply by being loud and belligerent. I know that's what convinces most people, but not me.

                            And I believe it's perfectly reasonable - and, in my opinion, actively preferable - to make initial contact for any serious business deal via telephone.

                            Marcia seems to have a non-position. She appears to think you should go out and research your potential partner's preferred method of communication.

                            I don't think so. Let's role play a minute. You're a businessman. You want to talk to another businessman. So you... what?

                            Stalk him on the internet to find out how you should best contact him and what sort of things he enjoys, then send a gift with a personal note before making actual contact?

                            Not me. I'll pick up the phone. You can argue with me all you want, that's still my answer, and I can tell you all day long why that's my answer. But I'm not the one being combative. I'm simply standing by my position.

                            Using Tim's dating analogy, the thinking you're espousing amounts to acting like you're doing someone a favor by asking them out.
                            If you're not, why are you asking? What's in it for them? That's not asking, it's begging.

                            If you believe that someone is your peer and equal, you treat them in the way you would appreciate being treated.
                            Precisely!

                            I call you on the phone, which is how I want to be treated.

                            But you don't want to be treated like that, which I don't know because... well, because I'm not you. Shocker, I know.

                            So you refuse to deal with me unless I contact you by email, because I have offended you with my gross error in judgment.

                            Is that... the way you would appreciate being treated?

                            I am honestly unable to understand what problem people have with this.

                            You're a person. You want things. You deserve those things. You have every right to seek those things. Polite society dictates that sometimes, within reason, other people have to give you those things.

                            I'm a person. I want things, too. I deserve those things. I have every right to seek those things. Polite society dictates that sometimes, within reason, other people have to give me those things.

                            Is it reasonable to suggest that before I call someone on the phone, I go research whether that person likes to get phone calls?
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                            • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
                              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                              Is it reasonable to suggest that before I call someone on the phone, I go research whether that person likes to get phone calls?
                              It depends on how much you want the deal. Most people wouldn't mind being called on the phone. It takes effort and shows you want them and not 100 other people you forward the email onto.

                              If the person is vocal about not accepting calls then you probably won't get a warm response. It may come across as lack of knowledge of the way the potential partner conducts business. If they are so against calls then they have probably mentioned it numerous times to their list, blog, newsletter.

                              Either way, if they get upset over the phone call there should be no skin off your nose because they won't be the right fit in the first place. It works as a screening process for you. I would still hope that the person you are calling would just highlight that they are busy at the moment and to forward your proposal to their email address. You can approach it how you like from there.
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                      It seems rather self-defeating if you insist on doing it your way instead of their way.
                      Do you honestly not see that I'm over here thinking the exact same thing?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Do you honestly not see that I'm over here thinking the exact same thing?
                        Yes. I do. I also see that you're saying it from a very different perspective. One that makes all the difference.


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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Caliban,
                Does either of us get to say "it's my way or else!" to the other?
                Yes. Either side can always say no.


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              • Profile picture of the author drmani
                I'd modify the letter thusly:

                Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + this one

                Hi [Full Name]

                I want to propose a JV - and hope it's one that will make
                you glad that you picked this out of the other 100 emails
                waiting for your attention today! :-)

                Can you please refer me to one of your managers who
                handles JV deals for you, to do a 'due-diligence' on
                my proposal?

                I know a busy person like you probably doesn't have
                the 30 minutes to spare right now, but just in case
                you do have the time to do this justice yourself,
                that would be fantastic.

                BRIEF OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL GOES HERE.

                If this isn't your cup of tea, or you can't fit it
                into your schedule at the present moment, I completely
                understand.

                I would deeply appreciate it if you let me know either
                way.

                If you need any more details, please ask and I'll try
                to get back to you with them promptly.

                And if there is any way I can help you with your
                business, all you have to do is ask.

                I look forward to a mutually rewarding partnership.

                [MY NAME]


                = = = =

                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Does either of us get to say "it's my way or else!" to the other?

                I certainly don't think so.
                In ANY deal, one side or the other WANTS it more - and so makes a
                bit of a compromise, bends over backwards a little more, exhibits
                slightly more tolerance for frustration, accepts a modestly lower
                advantage - you get the picture -

                AS LONG AS it also benefits him/her!

                That's the key to any JV which you try to engineer. Are the benefits
                WORTH whatever you have to go through?


                If they are, then you get it done - no matter what.

                If they aren't, why are you even trying to?!

                So, my answer to your question is "Yes, folks ALWAYS get to say "it's
                my way, or else..." and other folks try to talk them out of that stance,
                if they feel strongly enough that it's worth doing!



                All success
                Dr.Mani
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                • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
                  And I believe it's perfectly reasonable - and, in my opinion, actively preferable - to make initial contact for any serious business deal via telephone.

                  Marcia seems to have a non-position. She appears to think you should go out and research your potential partner's preferred method of communication.
                  We do have a difference of opinion here. Yours is the Humpty Dumpty position about communication.

                  `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

                  `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

                  `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

                  - From Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
                  My view is that you will not get very far in life, and you will not communicate well, if you insist that the way you intend things is the way they are actually received - or "should" be received and perceived.

                  Here is an analogy. Let's say that you believe any of these things:

                  A) A man should open a door and hold a chair for a woman.

                  B) Eye contact while talking is respectful.

                  C) When you receive a gift, you should write a thank-you note.

                  D) JV proposals by telephone are respectful.

                  If the person you are dealing with, however, believes:

                  E) It's degrading for men to open doors and hold chairs for women.

                  F) Eye contact while talking is disrespectful.

                  G)Thank-you notes are stupid and old-fashioned.

                  H)JV proposals by telephone show someone has no respect for the other person's time.

                  Then, your gesture will not be received in the way that you intended. Are you going to be like Humpty Dumpty and continue to act as if the other person should hold the same beliefs as you?

                  Communication simply does not work if you do not take into account the beliefs, preferences and language expectations of the other side.

                  That is true whether we are talking about methods of communication or the meaning of words.

                  Wars are started over these kinds of disagreements (I am not kidding). And relationships formed when people take a more flexible, pragmatic view.

                  Marcia Yudkin
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                  • Profile picture of the author agc
                    Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                    We do have a difference of opinion here. Yours is the Humpty Dumpty position about communication.
                    That was very inappropriate.




                    And worse, you call someone's position humpty dumpty because he feels that professionals should able to just contact each other without going though weird stalking and genuflection exercises? Imagine that. Two adults being adults?

                    Here's a clue: If person a) holds doors for people and person b) doesn't it SHOULDN'T make the least bit of difference in BUSINESS.

                    Now for dating... maybe (and even then it only depends on how strongly bound your identity is to this one single dimension of reality).

                    But a true professional doesn't require their business partners to to "date" them. In the grown up world, it's ok if I like chocolate and you like vanilla. We can still get along just fine because we're business partners, not lovers.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
                      Originally Posted by agc View Post

                      a true professional doesn't require their business partners to to "date" them. In the grown up world, it's ok if I like chocolate and you like vanilla. We can still get along just fine because we're business partners, not lovers.
                      OK, but you're not business partners either, you're somebody who would like to be a business partner. And that will only happen if you can convince the other person that it's in their best interest. And that will only happen if you can get past their gatekeepers and then give them a reason to give you their attention. That can be a difficult task.

                      I can only guess that some of the disconnect going on in this thread is that some people are talking about the difficult task of landing a "big fish" JV/partnership, while others are talking about a very simple JV arrangement they might make with a friend who's in the same situation as themselves. Those are two very different things.

                      We all know that you can't easily get ahold of Paul McCartney because you think it'd be in both of your interests to write a song together. You can't easily get Donald Trump on the phone to discuss a Real Estate deal you'd like to do. You can't easily get your product on HSN (the Home Shopping Network) just because you want to. You can't easily get Dan Kennedy to do a JV with you (read gjabiz's post about the hoops he had to jump through).

                      So obviously, if a favorable outcome is important to you and you're trying to contact someone who is very busy, who is inaccessible, and who has no reason to initially believe that you have anything of value for them, you're not on equal footing at all.

                      If there are 10 "big fish" potential JV partners in your niche and there are 1,000 entrepreneurs like yourself clamoring for their attention because you all want to JV with them, the onus is on you to make it happen. If it's an important relationship you want to develop, it makes sense to treat it as important. To do otherwise seems self-destructive.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                    Are you going to be like Humpty Dumpty and continue to act as if the other person should hold the same beliefs as you?
                    There's a problem in your analysis that hasn't been explicitly called out.

                    It is impossible for either person to know who has failed.

                    Think about it. Run through all the scenarios.

                    Only the speaker knows the intent... and believes the communication accurately represents it.

                    Only the recipient knows his perception... and believes the communication accurately represents it.

                    And no matter how it plays out, no matter who has failed, the perception must change to match the intent. Changing the intent to match the perception is simply absurd.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      Only the speaker knows the intent... and believes the communication accurately represents it.

                      Only the recipient knows his perception... and believes the communication accurately represents it.

                      And no matter how it plays out, no matter who has failed, the perception must change to match the intent. Changing the intent to match the perception is simply absurd.
                      If a positive outcome is important to you, it would be foolish and self-destructive to not go out of your way to learn how to communicate in the way that the recipient will correctly understand and appreciate.

                      If it was crucial to your company's success to establish a partnership with a Japanese business and you refused to learn the proper etiquette to make your presentation, you would be making a grave error:
                      (Quoted from buyusa.gov) "All aspects of Japanese life, especially business relations, are governed by strict rules of etiquette. A foreign business person who is either ignorant of, or insensitive to, Japanese customs and etiquette needlessly jeopardizes his company's prospects in this country."
                      Yes, you have every right to not follow the above suggestions and accidentally insult your potential Japanese business partners as a result of refusing to learn how to get them to perceive your intent, but to do so would be self-destructive... and if other people were relying on you to successfully set up the partnership, it would also be irresponsible.
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

                        If a positive outcome is important to you,
                        There's some movie or other where Jennifer Aniston says "I don't want you to do the dishes. I want you to want to do the dishes."

                        Replace "do the dishes" with "meet me halfway" and you'll have my attitude on busines communication.

                        Of course, most people will play Vince Vaughn's part and say "Why would I want to do dishes?" - which is precisely the problem.

                        "Why would I want to meet you halfway? What, give a little bit? This is business, dude. Nothing personal. We're a capitalist society, bay-bee, and my job isn't to meet you halfway... it's to take you for every dime I can get! And that's what you're doing, too! We're both gonna screw each other, the only question is who's screwing harder and faster! Yeah! That's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, I like it!"

                        Not doing a JV with that guy. Don't care who it is. It could be Jeff freakin' Bezos, and I am not interested. There could be twenty million dollars on the table: not interested.

                        And if you think that attitude isn't going to take me far? Watch.
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                    • Profile picture of the author mrdomains
                      Yay! Another one from the Crazy Crack-Pipe Copywriters!

                      On the serious note, more JV as in Joint-Venture, less I´ll give you x% for the use of your list. Sell my stuff for x$... that is sales, representation, go knock doors, great commissions never mind the quality. That´s risk, rather than JV.

                      I am on a bunch of lists. A few of them for the great information, most of them just out of curiosity. I am sometimes amazed at the crap that established marketers are willing to promote which ultimately contaminates their standing. And it isn´t even their own crap which might make it forgivable.
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                    • Profile picture of the author agc
                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                      There's a problem in your analysis that hasn't been explicitly called out.

                      It is impossible for either person to know who has failed.

                      Think about it. Run through all the scenarios.

                      Only the speaker knows the intent... and believes the communication accurately represents it.

                      Only the recipient knows his perception... and believes the communication accurately represents it.

                      And no matter how it plays out, no matter who has failed, the perception must change to match the intent. Changing the intent to match the perception is simply absurd.
                      I was with you to the end there.... but if you intend to succeed in a specific make or break interaction... then your presentation has to change to match their perception before your intent can be understood.

                      However, nobody MUST do anything. Either party can always take their toys and go home. For whatever asinine reason they choose. C'est la vie.

                      The trick/challenge is to not lose any sleep over the ones that "get away". You can still fill your basket even without the one that just spit out the hook. Was probably a scrawny little thing anyways ;-)

                      True in fishing. True in sales. True in dating. True in job hunting. True in life.
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by agc View Post

                        I was with you to the end there.... but if you intend to succeed in a specific make or break interaction... then your presentation has to change to match their perception before your intent can be understood.
                        You don't understand.

                        The perception has to change to match the intent.

                        The presentation is neither. It is an attempt to alter the perception.

                        See, your intent is a JV with someone. You try to communicate this, and the misinterpretation is that you are trying to borrow money.

                        You cannot repair the communication by deciding your intent is to borrow money instead and pursuing that line of inquiry.

                        You have to repair the communication by altering the other person's perception until they understand you want a JV.

                        Yes, the presentation is what you change to alter the perception. But your intent doesn't change - just your communication.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimGross
                          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                          Yes, the presentation is what you change to alter the perception. But your intent doesn't change - just your communication.
                          That's the opposite of what it appeared to me that you were saying originally. Thanks for changing your communication to alter my perception.

                          Most of us became entrepreneurs because we want to be able to run our business however we want. This thread as a whole has been about "best practices" to generate interest in JV's. However you personally want to run your business, more power to you, that's a separate matter. If you only want to do JV's with people you like on a personal level or only with people who were born in March or whatever, that's of course your prerogative.
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                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                            Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

                            That's the opposite of what it appeared to me that you were saying originally. Thanks for changing your communication to alter my perception.
                            Most of the points people are making are within epsilon of my own points, but somehow I've borked up the whole thing and people keep thinking I meant the opposite.

                            I mean, sit in the other person's seat, mentally. Give that a try. And there's no time more critical for this than when you're angry or upset at that person - because when you sit yourself in that person's seat, and you look at the crappy stupid JV email you just sent (instead of the one you just received), it doesn't look the same.

                            Suddenly the tone of the email changes in several ways, and you realise that if you respond in anger to this person... he's simply not going to understand why. His version of the story is not going to be "I sent a crappy stupid JV email and he didn't like it." It's going to be "I asked him to JV with me, and he sent me this horrible nasty email about my parentage and my private social life."

                            And he's not telling people like you. He's telling his friends - people who like him. People who know him from more than a crappy stupid JV email, and will be simply shocked that you don't like their friend. How many people out there think "the enemy of my friend is my enemy, too?"

                            Just think through it from his side of the fence. You don't have to be some kind of saint and send him an encouraging email. But by the same token, you don't have to read him the riot act over a few stupid comments.

                            Take into account the beliefs and preferences of the other person. If you don't know them, speculate. We're marketers. We know people.
                            Signature
                            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                              Most of the points people are making are within epsilon of my own points, but somehow I've borked up the whole thing and people keep thinking I meant the opposite.
                              Hmm... The way I read your posts was more like "I will do it my way and screw them if they don't like it."

                              Judging from other posts it seems I am not the only one.
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                              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                Hmm... The way I read your posts was more like "I will do it my way and screw them if they don't like it."
                                Can you identify why?

                                It's a serious question, because basically I was saying I won't put up with that attitude from them. If you say "we're doing it my way and screw you if you don't like it," I'll walk.

                                I am honestly not sure how so many people got the wrong idea. It happens a lot. I'll say "I will not put up with people doing X" and people say "well, screw you, if you're going to go around doing X then I'm not going to put up with it" - and I'm sitting over here going "WTF, that is exactly what I said, what is wrong with you people?"

                                Seriously. I don't get it. I have tried, honestly, to figure out what the problem is... and the only thing I can come up with is the Ice-T factor.

                                When Ice-T expressed the inner sentiments of black youth in south central LA, the public at large were simply unable to believe that he was not himself the youth for whom he spoke.

                                When he wrote and performed the song "New Jack Hustler" to exemplify the attitude of a young man aspiring to be a major drug dealer, the public expressed outrage that a major drug dealer could brag about his crimes on a record.

                                So when I say that people don't get to tell me "do it my way or else," all the world sees is do it my way or else and they respond as though it were the only thing I said.

                                It's a theory. I don't know how accurate it is.
                                Signature
                                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                  Can you identify why?

                                  It is hard for me to put my finger on it. It could be the tone of your posts.

                                  I know some people think I am argumentative based on some of my direct responses. I tend to get that response when I am too direct. I try to put a little smiley face on those types of posts now.

                                  People wonder why all my posts have a smiley in them.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                    It is hard for me to put my finger on it. It could be the tone of your posts.
                                    See, I'm lost at that. Text doesn't have a tone any more than a voice has a colour.

                                    Some people suggest that I have some form of cognitive spectrum disorder
                                    Signature
                                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                      Banned
                                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                      See, I'm lost at that. Text doesn't have a tone any more than a voice has a colour.

                                      Some people suggest that I have some form of cognitive spectrum disorder
                                      I see what you are saying.

                                      I do think we have a certain tone to the way we express ourselves, even in text.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                        I do think we have a certain tone to the way we express ourselves, even in text.
                                        As far as nonverbal content, I think people would like there to be nonverbal content in the text, so they pretend there is some.

                                        And when you read your own posts, they have the exact nonverbal content you meant when you said it.

                                        But when someone else reads our posts, they just make something up, and it might be completely wrong. So then they get upset about it, but it's not ours. They made it up. All the emotional content they're upset about is their own stupid fault, and they're trying to blame us for it.

                                        Which I tend to think is unfair, ignorant, and borderline sociopathic. But, again, a lot of people think I have some kind of spectrum disorder... :p
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                                        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                                          One of the things that some aspiring fiction writers struggle with is dialogue.

                                          The writer will have a conversation flow from one thing to the next, with each character responding robotically to one another.

                                          John: "Nice weather we are having."

                                          Mike: "Yes, it is."

                                          John: "I feel like taking off work and going golfing. Want to join me?"

                                          Mike: "That sounds like fun."

                                          As a result, the characters feel rather one-dimensional. They simply respond to each other and they know what the other is saying, unless, of course, it's necessary for the plot that they misunderstand each other.

                                          The bottom line is that the characters don't feel real. It's like they entered a monotonous zone where they can only speak if spoken to, and must respond to what the other person said.

                                          But, real conversations aren't like that. They are more like this:

                                          John: "Nice weather we are having."

                                          Mike: "It's a bit muggy. I should have worn shorts."

                                          John: "I feel like taking off work and going golfing. Want to join me?"

                                          Mike: "I could go for an Arnold Palmer about now."

                                          The thing is that people aren't always paying full attention to what is being said and are instead bringing their own baggage to the conversation and picking up on certain things over others. Basically, they hear (or read) what they want to hear. And then they may drift off in different directions too.

                                          Anyway, this thread is a good example of that, with people debating each other while making the same points in different ways.

                                          Today's fiction writing lesson brought to you by... the Warrior Forum.
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                                          Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

                                          Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                                            Today's fiction writing lesson brought to you by... the Warrior Forum.
                                            Be forewarned that if you try to write dialogue where people talk the way I talk, editors will tell you that it's completely unbelievable because nobody talks like this.
                                            Signature
                                            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                                              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                              Be forewarned that if you try to write dialogue where people talk the way I talk, editors will tell you that it's completely unbelievable because nobody talks like this.
                                              I am an editor, or at least I play one on the Internet, so I'll simply not listen to myself if that's something I ever tell me.
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                                              Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

                                              Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                                Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                                                I'll simply not listen to myself if that's something I ever tell me.
                                                Always remember:

                                                It's okay to talk to yourself...

                                                It's even okay to answer yourself...

                                                So long as you never ask yourself what you said.
                                                Signature
                                                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                                                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                                  So long as you never ask yourself what you said.
                                                  But it's okay to ask myself to clarify what I meant, right?
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                                                  Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

                                                  Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                                                    Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                                                    But it's okay to ask myself to clarify what I meant, right?
                                                    Absolutely! I do it all the time.

                                                    Um... actually, now that I think about it, that's not even remotely close to any evidence that it's okay.
                                                    Signature
                                                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                                        • Profile picture of the author MarkMilan
                                          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                          But when someone else reads our posts, they just make something up, and it might be completely wrong. So then they get upset about it, but it's not ours. They made it up. All the emotional content they're upset about is their own stupid fault, and they're trying to blame us for it.

                                          Which I tend to think is unfair, ignorant, and borderline sociopathic. But, again, a lot of people think I have some kind of spectrum disorder... :p
                                          This is wild conjecture, but I think that when someone interprets what someone else is saying, they tend to refer to people they have known in the past. If you're unlike anyone they've met in the past, then it is likely that their interpretation will be incorrect.

                                          However, regardless of the validity of their interpretation, people will always come to erroneous interpretations. To refuse to deal with people's erroneous interpretations is like refusing to accept that first impressions count. The fact is that they do count.

                                          If you're going for a job interview, you're going to be far better off going in a suit than in jeans and a t-shirt. In an ideal world, how you dress wouldn't influence your chances of getting a job, but back in the real world, it does.

                                          I was recently reminded of this myself. When communicating with freelance clients, I wouldn't acknowledge their praise of my work. I wanted to appear professional, but I now think that it made me seem big-headed. I realised that a few amenities make for a better relationship with my clients, and make me more likely to get long-term work.

                                          I agree with what someone said above: if in doubt, add smilies.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
                                      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                      Text doesn't have a tone any more than a voice has a colour.
                                      Synesthetes might quibble about that one.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Becky
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                                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                                  Can you identify why?

                                  It's a serious question, because basically I was saying I won't put up with that attitude from them. If you say "we're doing it my way and screw you if you don't like it," I'll walk.
                                  Well I can't say why because I for one never took it that way. I agree that if you start the contact then you should do it in away that the other person would receive it (in other words in their comfort zone) but I guess I saw beyond that and saw you saying something deeper. Precisely what you just said in the above quote

                                  To me you were talking about mutual respect and that part resonates with me. I don't care how new or small you are I don't want you leaning over and kissing my boots and if you have a larger list then I don't expect you to want me to lean over and kiss your boots.

                                  If you are kissing my boots then I have to wonder what you think about the value of what you have to offer. People who grovel in the ground rarely have enough self respect to build great offers. If you want me to kiss your boots then you are on an ego trip and would make a lousy partner anyway.

                                  It isn't about my ego or yours. Its what do you have to offer my customers or what can I offer yours. If you care more about your ego it isn't a good fit - bye. No matter how big you think you are you haven't cornered the Internet. You are a small fry to someone else. I may have WANTED to do A JV with you but I don't NEED you. Whether you approached me or I approached you.

                                  I don't know maybe its because I can drive traffic and build a list without a JV So I focus more on the products and the synergy with what I already offer. Maybe thats your gig too.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jason Fladlien
                  Dr Mani is awesome!

                  For example, I rarely used to promote anyone. Maybe 3 times a year.
                  Dr. Mani sent me an email asking if I'd promote something of his.

                  And I did.

                  Want to know his secret?

                  First, I already knew who he was and what he stood for - it was an
                  honor to get an email from him. Second, he specifically talked about
                  me and my blog and my products and what he liked about
                  them.

                  Sweet!

                  Third, what asked me to promote was very solid and harmonious about
                  what I stood for... and it was for a good cause.

                  Now THAT's how you do it. You become "known" ahead of time
                  before you ask for JV. You show the person you KNOW about
                  them, their ideals and their goals. You then have something
                  of value to their subscribers.

                  Not rocket science...


                  Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                  I'd modify the letter thusly:

                  Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + this one

                  Hi [Full Name]

                  I want to propose a JV - and hope it's one that will make
                  you glad that you picked this out of the other 100 emails
                  waiting for your attention today! :-)

                  Can you please refer me to one of your managers who
                  handles JV deals for you, to do a 'due-diligence' on
                  my proposal?

                  I know a busy person like you probably doesn't have
                  the 30 minutes to spare right now, but just in case
                  you do have the time to do this justice yourself,
                  that would be fantastic.

                  BRIEF OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL GOES HERE.

                  If this isn't your cup of tea, or you can't fit it
                  into your schedule at the present moment, I completely
                  understand.

                  I would deeply appreciate it if you let me know either
                  way.

                  If you need any more details, please ask and I'll try
                  to get back to you with them promptly.

                  And if there is any way I can help you with your
                  business, all you have to do is ask.

                  I look forward to a mutually rewarding partnership.

                  [MY NAME]


                  = = = =



                  In ANY deal, one side or the other WANTS it more - and so makes a
                  bit of a compromise, bends over backwards a little more, exhibits
                  slightly more tolerance for frustration, accepts a modestly lower
                  advantage - you get the picture -

                  AS LONG AS it also benefits him/her!

                  That's the key to any JV which you try to engineer. Are the benefits
                  WORTH whatever you have to go through?


                  If they are, then you get it done - no matter what.

                  If they aren't, why are you even trying to?!

                  So, my answer to your question is "Yes, folks ALWAYS get to say "it's
                  my way, or else..." and other folks try to talk them out of that stance,
                  if they feel strongly enough that it's worth doing!



                  All success
                  Dr.Mani
                  Signature

                  Co-creator of WP Twin. Perhaps the most expensive yet most reliable wordress cloning tool on the market. We've definitely been used more successfully than all other options :)

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                  • Profile picture of the author Dmitry
                    How you do it is simple enough - you do your job of making the other person want it more than you want them...

                    Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien View Post

                    Dr Mani is awesome!

                    For example, I rarely used to promote anyone. Maybe 3 times a year.
                    Dr. Mani sent me an email asking if I'd promote something of his.

                    And I did.

                    Want to know his secret?

                    First, I already knew who he was and what he stood for - it was an
                    honor to get an email from him. Second, he specifically talked about
                    me and my blog and my products and what he liked about
                    them.

                    Sweet!

                    Third, what asked me to promote was very solid and harmonious about
                    what I stood for... and it was for a good cause.

                    Now THAT's how you do it. You become "known" ahead of time
                    before you ask for JV. You show the person you KNOW about
                    them, their ideals and their goals. You then have something
                    of value to their subscribers.

                    Not rocket science...
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Walker
                    I've had pretty good luck getting people to
                    promote for me. And not just in the "make money
                    online" world. And I've seen the "behind-the-scenes"
                    stuff for HUNDREDS of successful JVs.

                    So do you want my MAGIC FORMULA for sending
                    successful JV proposals?

                    Well, I'll go one step further... I'll actaully
                    give you my TEMPLATE that I use for most of my JV
                    proposals...

                    They look like this:


                    --- begin ---

                    SUBJECT: yooooo.......

                    Dude... I'm getting ready to launch xxxxxxxxxxxx.
                    I would love to have you onboard... I think we're
                    gonna crush it, and it should be a good match for
                    your list.

                    [[ POSSIBLE: put in a specific idea for how this
                    person could position the promotion for their list ]]

                    We start prelaunch on xxxxxx, and we're gonna open
                    cart on xxxxxxx

                    Let me know if you're interested and I'll get you
                    all hooked up with links and stuff.

                    And I'm happy to put together some custom ninja
                    copy for you - lemmee know what you need...


                    - Jeff

                    --- end ---



                    So you're probably thinking "right... Jeff can get
                    away with something like that, because he's a 'big
                    name'"...

                    Well, if that's what you're thinking, then you're
                    missing the point...

                    So this is the important lesson... unless I know
                    someone well enough to send them that type of
                    message (ie, I can use a subject line like that, I
                    can use a salutation like that, and I can
                    confidently tell them the promo will work for
                    their list), then I'm NOT GOING TO ASK THEM TO
                    PROMOTE.

                    Now I know this thread has been mostly about going
                    in cold and approaching someone you don't know...
                    and that's not what my answer is about. Mostly because
                    that's not how I do things (and have done things.)

                    But I'm just telling you what has worked for me...
                    I came into this market cold a long time ago, and
                    I have sold well over $10 million in this market
                    since then - and nearly all those sales came
                    through JVs.

                    And I've haven't done that by writing awesome JV
                    proposales. I've done it all by building strong
                    relationships with people and bending over
                    backwards to give those people a ton of help...
                    BEFORE I EVER ASK THEM TO PROMOTE.

                    I hope I'm not coming across as holier-than-thou
                    or anything like that... but the best and fastest
                    way to have success in this business is like any
                    other business - by NOT taking shortcuts, by
                    delivering value, and by building relationships.

                    Unlike most folks in this thread, I *have* done a
                    JV with Paul. He *has* promoted my stuff. But I
                    don't think I ever sent him a JV proposal. I'm not
                    sure I ever even asked him to promote. But I spent
                    a very long time building a very strong, warm
                    relationship with Paul (it scares me to think of
                    the amount of time I've spent on the phone with
                    Paul.)

                    Now I know I'm not offering any quick fixes here,
                    and I know that's what people really want.

                    But the reality is this... a year from now is
                    going to come, no matter what.

                    You're going to be a year older. That year is
                    going to go by whether you spend that time
                    watching TV, surfing forums, and eating bon bons.
                    It's going to come if you spend that 12 months
                    trying to trick Google or sending lousy JV
                    proposals.

                    But if you spend that time getting out and meeting
                    potential JV partners AND THEN helping them or
                    bringing them VALUE... well then you're going to
                    start being able to send JV proposals like I wrote
                    up above.

                    And you're going to get a lot of people saying yes
                    to those proposals. And you're gonna make a lot
                    more sales.


                    - Jeff
                    Signature
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Jeff, one of the best posts I've seen here in a long time.

                      Folks, it's true. If I were able to get out and network with people and build
                      those kind of relationships, things would be a lot easier for me and I wouldn't
                      have to do everything myself.

                      Paul Myers has a saying, and it's very true.

                      "Them who gives, gets."

                      You'll be wise to learn that as soon as possible.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Good point!

                I would like to discuss this on the phone.

                You would like to discuss this via email.

                How should we discuss it?

                Does either of us get to say "it's my way or else!" to the other?

                I certainly don't think so. In fact, I think if either of us tries to tell the other how things are going to be done or else, this JV is doomed.
                Well, you can stand around and do a lot of butt sniffing to see who the top dog is, but to me, the person who is approaching someone else is doing the asking and perhaps should be willing to communicate in the preferred manner of the person he is asking.

                I mean, up to that point, the recipient really wasn't interested in dealing with you. You're doing the presentation. Doing the presentation in "his/her" preferred method of communication makes sense to me.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  to me, the person who is approaching someone else is doing the asking and perhaps should be willing to communicate in the preferred manner of the person he is asking.
                  Willing? Sure.

                  Psychically capable of figuring it out and using it from the beginning? Not so much.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    Sounds like the guy is trying to be a bit challenging and comical to stand out, but lacks the copywriting skills to deliver it well. He comes across arrogant and disrespectful.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Allow me to translate that email for y'all...

    Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + My Spam Scam

    Hi Myers
    I want to scam you.

    If you're not a complete idiot, can you refer me to someone who is? To do a
    proper due-diligence on my proposal will expose me as scammer, and not a
    very good one at that.

    I know you don't know me, so you won't be able to hunt me down and
    serve me the justice I deserve for being a spammer and scammer.

    Please ignore this email if you have law enforcement connections.

    Myers, stop wasting your time reading my idiotic drivel.
    Have fun
    [Name removed]
    Signature

    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author kyhell
    my only suggestion for this would be that the sender locate a higher quality Swahili to english translator!
    other than that i don't understand why you didn't jump at this obviously lucrative offer LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author Mo...
    Yep I agree - Proper English is the first point of recall. Without that you may as well not even send it!
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    You know what, his email got me thinking. You know what would be an even more lucrative market than the online one? Running spelling and grammar checks for scammers.

    I gotta get a hold of that Nigerian. I smell millions.

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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Paul:

    To be honest with you, I don't think your should waste your time helping this poor chap by improving the letter.

    You don't know this guy from adam, and he's promising you 1 million dollars straight out the shoot. Don't know about you, but that screams 'scam' from the rooftops.

    But if you really want to know how to improve this, leave off the over the top bs money promises, and the insults, and tell me what this is all about.

    What is it, what can it do for me, and what I need to do next. Simple enough?
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    I just wish I had something worthy of a JV with Paul to pitch.
    Signature

    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    I have to say this place is something else.

    I've never seen this much posturing and roostering all concentrated together in one place before.

    I'm still trying to figure out the dynamic around it all.
    Signature

    One man's terrorist is another man's patriot

    Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground - Frederick Douglas

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    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      I've never seen this much posturing and roostering all concentrated together in one place before. I'm still trying to figure out the dynamic around it all.
      I'm still trying to figure out how you complained about posturing and one-upmanship and then said this later in the same thread:
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      Game, set, match. Thank you for proving my point. Please play again next time.
      Reminded me of this clip for some reason.
      (On a side note, maybe your above response was an uncontrollable emotional reaction... Dun Dun DUNNNN!)
      If you're semi-rushed, start watching from the 30-second mark. If you're REALLY rushed, just watch the last 5 seconds.
      Edit/Add to agc's response below: Nice porcupine comeback. :-)
      ...And hopefully it goes without saying that I posted this video just for fun, it always cracked me up and it seemed like a good excuse to post it.
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  • Profile picture of the author winebuddy
    Hey Paul,

    Read my sig.

    Hope to hear from you,

    Mike





    I think this fills the bill for the following:

    Originally Posted by BenBrandes

    1. Make sure it's readable
    2. Explain what the JV is
    3. Explain exactly how it will help you and your subscribers/customers
    4. Outline how easy it will be for you to implement and do as much as I can
    5. Add proof to the proposal of others doing it (preferably people you may know)
    6. Make it personal
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Steven's post reminded me of similar things I've seen in the real estate world. Someone would approach a guy like Donald Trump with a triplex deal and tout that he could make $50,000 in 6 months with high hopes that Donald would open his wallet and fund it.

    With his mind on billion dollar deals it isn't even worth his time to look at a triplex somewhere.
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

      Steven's post reminded me of similar things I've seen in the real estate world. Someone would approach a guy like Donald Trump with a triplex deal and tout that he could make $50,000 in 6 months with high hopes that Donald would open his wallet and fund it.

      With his mind on billion dollar deals it isn't even worth his time to look at a triplex somewhere.
      That may be true, but it's obvious from the OP that Paul doesn't know this guy from the man on the moon. If I got that email, my scam alarm would be pinging off the walls.
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  • Profile picture of the author winebuddy
    Darklock,

    Give me a call. I want to work with you. I will PM you my phone number.

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Vanquish
    I hope that was a joke. It was funny to read but I don't think the guy was serious.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dmitry
    I suspect the well-respected Mr. Myers might have acted differently if the product was something intriguing...
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  • Profile picture of the author Igor Kheifets
    This almost makes me sorry for not receiving
    this "invite".

    I am amazed at how well this message is structured and
    how enticing the call to action is...

    LMAO!
    Igor
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    I'm in the camp of those that say you should approach someone else using the method they prefer to be approached.

    The dating analogy is a good one. But I'd imagine we can make other analogies here.

    For example, let's suppose you're doing business with someone from a foreign country. The courteous thing to do would be to learn a bit about that country's business etiquette so you can approach the potential partner in a way that he/she prefers to be approached.

    Let's suppose they prefer phone calls. At the very least, you'd look up their time zone so that you call them during business hours. After all, just because you prefer to do business at 3:00pm your time doesn't mean your potential partner likes to be dragged out of bed for a JV proposal.


    ***

    A JV proposal is about selling. You're not selling a person a product or service, but you are "selling" them on your idea. So many of the things that apply to consumer sales applies to JV proposals.

    For example...

    Let's say you're selling a product to small farmers who live in some rural part of the USA. For starters, landing these folks as your customers would be mutually beneficial -- your product solves their problems, and you want them to become your paying customer.

    But even though this is a mutually beneficial arrangement (e.g., you're helping them, too), you should still approach the prospect in a way that they liked to be approached.

    Some of this is common sense. For example, we get permission to contact our prospects by email. And we don't call them if they're on the "do not call" list.

    So, let's say you're going to use some IM to reach them.

    You might look at some high-speed coverage maps and determine the chances of these folks having high-speed is pretty low. So, you eliminate video as a way to reach them. (You can also eliminate video simply by testing it -- low conversion rates may mean video isn't the best approach.)

    Text is the way to go for this group -- articles, sales letters, emails. No videos, webinars or audio downloads.

    It doesn't matter if you prefer using videos to reach your prospects. If they don't prefer video, you won't go far in your dealings with them.

    If you respect their preferences, your conversion rate goes up. It's pretty simple.


    ***

    Same goes for prospective JV partners.

    You do a little investigative work, figure out what they (individually) respond to best, and then approach them with their preferred method. Do that, and your JV conversion rate goes up.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
    Is it reasonable to suggest that before I call someone on the phone, I go research whether that person likes to get phone calls?
    Actually I think it is. I'd have thought that was just good manners. Maybe I'm missing something but all I can think is, what right do you have to call me on the phone, when I don't know you, and you clearly don't know me.

    If you knew me, you'd know I didn't want phone calls. If you knew that and phoned me anyway, then you're just plain rude and why the heck would I want to talk to someone who didn't give a stuff about what I think?:confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
    Thought of this comparison, tell me if you agree:

    JVs are like sex. Great for everyone involved, but if you just waltz up to a stranger and ask for it, you'll get slapped across the face. You have to build up a relationship (of some sort) before you can get there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by moneysoapbox View Post

      Thought of this comparison, tell me if you agree:

      JVs are like sex. Great for everyone involved, but if you just waltz up to a stranger and ask for it, you'll get slapped across the face. You have to build up a relationship (of some sort) before you can get there.
      Not if the stranger is of the type that exchanges services for money.
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      • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Not if the stranger is of the type that exchanges services for money.
        Maybe so, but they'll want to see that you HAVE the money >
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          agc said:
          But a true professional doesn't require their business partners to to "date" them. In the grown up world, it's ok if I like chocolate and you like vanilla. We can still get along just fine because we're business partners, not lovers.
          Analogies are almost always imprecise. If you take them literally, it leads to miscommunication.

          There are a lot of things you can consider in this proces. If you're trying to work out a deal with someone who uses paid traffic or SEO tricks to get visitors to your offer, it's often all about the money. Give those people a proven process and they can bring you a ton of new customers.

          If it's someone with an established position in the relevant field, especially if they have regular contact with a group, the dynamic changes. They're going to be watching out for that group, and weighing any compensation along with the impact of the promotion on their relationships.

          You also want to make things easy for them. Give them multiple options for contact and/or review. Have promotional materials ready, and be open to other options they may suggest. Some people will want you to set everything up for them, including ready-to-send emails. Others will prefer to create their own.

          Finding out how someone prefers to be contacted doesn't have to be a stalkerish process. They'll usually tell you, indirectly. For instance, I include my email address and phone number on pretty much everything. If I know you, or you're a customer, calling is fine. So's email. I'm good either way. If I don't know you, an email with alternative contact methods is the best.

          Some people process everything through a help desk. If they do that, and don't have an email address or phone number anywhere, guess how they want to be approached?

          Some folks don't put contact info out there at all. That's usually a good sign they don't want cold contacts. For them, you either open a door or move along. Opening doors can be done a lot of ways. A referral is the best, if you have friends in common. I won't get into a lot of the others here, since they can be easily misused and people tend to take that stuff and run with it. A small amount of thinking will yield a lot of possibilities.

          Jeff has the right idea, for my way of doing things. I have a tendency to get involved in a lot of communities online, and I meet a ton of people that way. I've found that just being out there and being yourself will do most of the "work." At least it will if you're a social person.

          Example: A looong time ago, I ran an email-based discussion list for really small businesses. Three or fewer people. That's where I first met Jeff, Allan Gardyne, Harvey Segal, Nancy Roebke, Tom Kulzer and a bunch more people. Glenn Fleishman's IM list led to a whole other group. Then the list-moderators list, various web forums, a Usenet newsgroup, I-Sales, an anti-spam list, some private groups, etc. Plus a few seminars. There's the newsletter and the web-based magazine I published. And, of course, the Warrior Forum.

          It's just not that hard to meet people. If you're helpful and happen to add some fun to the process, it's inevitable. Having a sense of humor, and not being too easily offended, helps a lot.

          When you get into that kind of social stuff in your industry, you won't have to worry about different styles. People will know you, and they'll know how to contact you. And you'll know the same about them. This piddling stuff won't matter.

          And you'll know how to approach people. Just like Jeff does...


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Yet another example of how not to approach people. This is an unedited copy (other than removing the sender's name) of a "JV request" I just got.

    Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + this one

    Hi Myers
    I want to propose a JV

    Can you refer me to one of your manager who manages JV for you? To do a
    proper due-diligence on my proposal.

    I know you don't have 30 mts. Do you have the time to do this a justice
    yourself?

    Ignore this email & forget a US$1 mil bonus coming to you within next 1
    month on top of your normal commissions

    Myers, stop wasting your time on chicken-feeds
    Have fun
    [Name removed]


    The subject line was clever. The intro was at least an attempt to respect the recipient's time. The rest? Not so good...

    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?


    Paul
    Actually, I don't even find the subject line clever. My reaction would be to delete it, saying to myself, "Yes, and now I have one less"

    If a subject line doesn't tell me what the e-mail is about, it automatically gets deleted while I'm sipping my first coffee. Anyone making me an offer has a millisecond to grab my attention - with a well-targeted subject line.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Sepich
    "Myers, stop wasting your time on chicken-feeds"

    Hi Paul,
    I just wonder how this person was so in tune with your eating habits? I think it must just be red neck profiling and he got lucky.

    George
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  • Back to the actual OP the main thing that turned me off was the grammar and the stupid promise of adding 1 million dollars to your bottom line.

    It sounded very amateurish and didn't really make that much sense... chicken feeds???
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tristan,
      Back to the actual OP the main thing that turned me off was the grammar and the stupid promise of adding 1 million dollars to your bottom line.

      It sounded very amateurish and didn't really make that much sense... chicken feeds???
      His first name was Raj, so English is probably not his first language. The grammar didn't bother me as much as the rest of the thing. The construction and attitude just screamed "scamateur..."


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  • Profile picture of the author marcdonovan
    Coming from the techie world for the past 40 years, I have a lot of experience with text communications and I have the battle scars. I'm still screwing up, so I am not an expert by any means.

    The top things I have learned is to always have an air of respect and professionalism. You can get friendly after you have learned a lot about your subject, but not at first.

    The other thing that I have found is that there are classes of people that prefer certain forms of communication. Some prefer email/IM, some prefer phone, some prefer face-to-face. Learn what your prospect prefers and honor that. Asking is the easiest way to learn this.

    Read every text communication that you write at least three times over to gauge the potential tone. If anything is remotely confrontational or could be misconstrued, then redo. Write it tonight and read it tomorrow to be sure it is what you meant to say. Send it when you are sure. I can't tell you how many times I have written something that I thought was justified, only to delete it the next day and come back with a completely different tact. We think about this stuff when we sleep and there are many good insights from sleeping on it. It is not just an "old saying"

    If in doubt at all, ask someone's opinion. You will be surprised what people come back with. I'm constantly amazed at what people read into my intended meaning. Everyone has a different world-view and it very much helps to get other eyes on your subject.

    Anyway, I don't want to come off as an expert, since these are just my personal observations, but I hope this helps.

    (I read this over three times, but I'm not waiting until tomorrow to post, so cumbayua and que sera sera)
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Caliban,
      Text doesn't have a tone any more than a voice has a colour.
      Words have meanings, and they also have connotations. Most people share connotations for certain words, based on cultural training. Everyone attaches connotations to some words based on how they've experienced those words being used.

      Those differences are also affected by context. The situation, the relationships of the people communicating, and everything else that's involved. A very large factor can be the way past communications are viewed.

      Essentially, text does carry a tone. An emotional tone, that is expressed as a subtext. Denying that doesn't change the fact of most people's experience.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Essentially, text does carry a tone.
        I'm rather of the opinion that the text doesn't carry the tone... you do.

        If I type something that you've heard someone else say, you're quite likely to "hear" it the way that other person said it. If I say the same thing your second grade teacher used to say when she was trying to humiliate you in front of the class, you're going to think I'm trying to humiliate you.

        But since I have absolutely no knowledge or awareness of this, it's not my fault, and it's not fair to blame me for it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I'm rather of the opinion that the text doesn't carry the tone... you do.

          If I type something that you've heard someone else say, you're quite likely to "hear" it the way that other person said it. If I say the same thing your second grade teacher used to say when she was trying to humiliate you in front of the class, you're going to think I'm trying to humiliate you.

          But since I have absolutely no knowledge or awareness of this, it's not my fault, and it's not fair to blame me for it.

          You asked why people didn't understand you then disagree when they tell you why. Man, I would love to live in your world. I can type anything I want and it will never be my fault when I get them angry.
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I'm rather of the opinion that the text doesn't carry the tone... you do.

          If I type something that you've heard someone else say, you're quite likely to "hear" it the way that other person said it. If I say the same thing your second grade teacher used to say when she was trying to humiliate you in front of the class, you're going to think I'm trying to humiliate you.

          But since I have absolutely no knowledge or awareness of this, it's not my fault, and it's not fair to blame me for it.

          Bingo.

          Neuro-linguistic programming.

          Cognitive linguistics.

          Text represents basic object theory.

          Your frame interprets the object and puts it into relation with other objects based on your meta-model, filters, etc...

          I can write the word, "no".

          I can say, "no", 10 different ways to slant the meaning.

          There's a UCLA study floating around that shows something like 7-8% of any communication is the actual words or content. The rest of the communication is broken among tone, body language, etc...

          Text cannot convey those modalities.

          It is indeed possible to invoke emotional state through text (copywriting 101), but it's still an approximation because of the unique frames we each have.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I'm rather of the opinion that the text doesn't carry the tone... you do.
          From Merriam Webster Online:

          6 : style or manner of expression in speaking or writing <seemed wise to adopt a conciliatory tone>

          This is a common usage, with which anyone claiming to be a writer should be familiar. I suspect you are.

          Every party to a communication has some effect on the impression that communication makes. Re-read the post to which you were replying, and you'll note that I remarked on the impact a recipient's experience has. I am simply pointing out that the author of a remark also injects emotional content that exists independently of a reader's unique experiences.

          You might want to familiarize yourself with the meanings of the words sub-text and connotation.


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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            I am simply pointing out that the author of a remark also injects emotional content that exists independently of a reader's unique experiences.
            I don't believe it does. I believe an author can attempt to call up shared experiences, but is fundamentally unable to know whether the reader shares them. You can't put emotional content into text; you have to inject words and phrases that you believe will create a specific effect in the reader, but it is ultimately the reader who imparts any emotion.

            Case in point: those of us with children now have an entirely different perception of media which portray children. Among other things, we are far more deeply affected by scenes where a child is threatened or harmed. However, those without children don't feel the same resonance - so a film for the under-25 market is not going to benefit in the same way from scenes involving children. The under-25 market is likely to identify with the child in the scene, instead of feeling a parental bond.

            If I know whether my audience is under 25, I can use that to create an effective scene, but if I don't - I cannot create a consistent emotional tone in the scene. The involvement of a child splits the reaction. This can certainly be employed to great effect by developing a scene which integrates both contexts effectively, but this is uncommon.

            And in any case, the same scene involving a child will have an entirely different effect on someone who has lost their children. But because this is not a common experience, it is unfair for the viewer to complain that the filmmakers should have understood the distressing and upsetting effect this scene would create, having lost one's children.

            There is a line where it becomes unreasonable. It's reasonably clear that if I call someone a "jerk" they will be offended. However, it's not so clear that if I call someone a "pineapple" they might be offended. It's not a common expression; when I was in school, we called someone a "pineapple" if they were being spiky and prickly. But if I say that to someone born and raised in Hawaii, they might think it's some sort of racist comment.

            I don't know if "pineapple" is a racist term for Hawaiians or not, but I'm pretty sure I have no damn clue who on the internet is or could be Hawaiian. While it certainly could be the case that I was a racist and didn't like Hawaiians and would call them pineapples, that all presumes that I know you're Hawaiian.

            You can't hold someone responsible for an emotional context of which they are not aware and could not reasonably be expected to anticipate.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              You can't hold someone responsible for an emotional context of which they are not aware and could not reasonably be expected to anticipate.
              As stated, that's true.

              I suspect that most people would be able to pick out a bunch of things you've said in this thread which you should reasonably have known would elicit a particular emotional response and which you claimed had no such content.

              Your initial response to Marcia is a good starting point.


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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Your initial response to Marcia is a good starting point.
                So is her initial response to me.

                I said what I would do.

                She said it was wrong, because it might not be what the recipient wants.

                And I said if the recipient is going to have some kind of hissyfit over what he wants, he can go to hell.

                Notice that I didn't say she was wrong. In fact, I admitted she was right. Maybe the guy I contacted doesn't want a phone call, and isn't going to do business with me because of that.

                And I don't care.

                Because that guy is a primadonna squathead, and I don't want to do business with him anyway. He just saved me a lot of time trying to figure that out, and I'm actually rather grateful. But he can still go to hell.

                There seems to be some idea that I was saying anyone and everyone who has a different preference than I do can go to hell. That's not the case. I have a preference, you have a preference, and if we can compromise - let's do that.

                But if you won't compromise, piss off. Bad start to the relationship equals a bad relationship down the road. If the honeymoon period sucks, just wait till that part's over.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  And I said if the recipient is going to have some kind of hissyfit over what he wants, he can go to hell.

                  Notice that I didn't say she was wrong. In fact, I admitted she was right. Maybe the guy I contacted doesn't want a phone call, and isn't going to do business with me because of that.

                  And I don't care.

                  Because that guy is a primadonna squathead, and I don't want to do business with him anyway. He just saved me a lot of time trying to figure that out, and I'm actually rather grateful. But he can still go to hell.

                  There seems to be some idea that I was saying anyone and everyone who has a different preference than I do can go to hell. That's not the case. I have a preference, you have a preference, and if we can compromise - let's do that.

                  But if you won't compromise, piss off. Bad start to the relationship equals a bad relationship down the road. If the honeymoon period sucks, just wait till that part's over.
                  I was a proposal writer and presenter in another life and we sure wouldn't have had such a high proposal win ratio if we approached submitting proposals by your criteria.

                  There were definite rules, down to the minute about how a proposal would be submitted ... one minute late and not in the right location, and you've lost the months you've spent on that proposal because you've lost your opportunity to communicate.

                  If you are requesting a JV, you don't yet have a business or partnership relationship with the recipient. I assume that since you are the one initiating the JV request, that you would like to have that relationship. There is no honeymoon yet, at this point, because there is no marriage and it doesn't appear that there will be one since you are lousy at courting.
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                  • Profile picture of the author agc
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    I was a proposal writer and presenter in another life and we sure wouldn't have had such a high proposal win ratio if we approached submitting proposals by your criteria.

                    There were definite rules, down to the minute about how a proposal would be submitted ... one minute late and not in the right location, and you've lost the months you've spent on that proposal because you've lost your opportunity to communicate.
                    I'm willing to bet there's a reason you choose to no longer swim in those waters.

                    I know there's a reason I would never have waded in in the first place.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    I was a proposal writer and presenter in another life and we sure wouldn't have had such a high proposal win ratio if we approached submitting proposals by your criteria.
                    Depends on how you define a "win" - and personally, I define that as getting what I want.

                    If I want to do a JV with you, and I do, I win!

                    If I don't want to do a JV with you, and I don't - I still win!

                    And since I never really consider the door closed on wanting to do a JV with someone (after all, the prospective partner could change his mind and call me tomorrow), the only time I ever lose is when I do a JV that I didn't actually want to do.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Caliban,
                  And I said if the recipient is going to have some kind of hissyfit over what he wants, he can go to hell.
                  I don't recall anyone suggesting having a hissy fit, throwing a tantrum, ranting and raving or otherwise behaving in a way that warrants this approach to the discussion. Specifically, trivializing the person because you disagree with their choice. As in, for an additional example...
                  And I don't care.

                  Because that guy is a primadonna squathead, and I don't want to do business with him anyway. He just saved me a lot of time trying to figure that out, and I'm actually rather grateful. But he can still go to hell.
                  Do you still expect to maintain the assertion that you attach no emotional tone to your comments on this issue? That would be a pretty hard sell in a crowd that understand even the most basic concepts of communication.
                  I have a preference, you have a preference, and if we can compromise - let's do that.

                  But if you won't compromise, piss off.
                  And, given the rest of what you've said, "compromise" means "Do it my way." Consider that not wanting to do business via phone isn't something on which one can compromise without abandoning their preferences completely.

                  It is fine for anyone to make any choice they wish on such a matter. However, suggesting that failing to do it your way makes them somehow childish is, well... childish. Not to mention illogical.


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                  • Profile picture of the author agc
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Do you still expect to maintain the assertion that you attach no emotional tone to your comments on this issue? That would be a pretty hard sell in a crowd that understand even the most basic concepts of communication.
                    If you don't want to deal with someone (ie because they don't adhere to your preferred M.O), why do you care what emotional content they attach to that fact?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      If you don't want to deal with someone (ie because they don't adhere to your preferred M.O), why do you care what emotional content they attach to that fact?
                      Re-read the post. That question was about his posts here, not what he thinks of someone's decision outside of this thread. There's a context to my comments which you may have missed.


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                      • Profile picture of the author agc
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Re-read the post. That question was about his posts here, not what he thinks of someone's decision outside of this thread. There's a context to my comments which you may have missed.


                        Paul
                        After a while, my eyes bleed at the he said she said stuff.

                        I was more or less questioning the context itself... namely, that you are having a visceral reaction to his visceral reaction and that one visceral reaction is somehow more valid than the other visceral reaction.

                        Pots, Kettles, and things we all learned from gramma.

                        As I said early in this thread, this forum seems to have an unusual prevalence for BSD contests. More so than most.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          I was more or less questioning the context itself... namely, that you are having a visceral reaction to his visceral reaction and that one visceral reaction is somehow more valid than the other visceral reaction.
                          Read first. Then reply.

                          There is a sub-thread here that concerns Caliban's tendency to be misunderstood. It has little or nothing to do with the interaction between senders and receivers of JV/affiliate proposals. The comment you quoted was directed to that, not the main topic.

                          Failing to maintain context is a major cause of increased BSD quotient. Thanks for your contribution to that...


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                          • Profile picture of the author agc
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Read first. Then reply.

                            There is a sub-thread here that concerns Caliban's tendency to be misunderstood. It has little or nothing to do with the interaction between senders and receivers of JV/affiliate proposals. The comment you quoted was directed to that, not the main topic.

                            Failing to maintain context is a major cause of increased BSD quotient. Thanks for your contribution to that...


                            Paul
                            Honestly, I don't think he's nearly as misunderstood as he and everyone else claims.

                            I think he just says things that make people have reactions because the things he says challenges their "funny notions" and threatens to unravel their nice neat one dimensional worlds. Thus the reactions.

                            There's a reason most highly technical people are kept locked away in the basements.... it's usually so they don't get burned as witches by the ignorant masses.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Honestly, I don't think he's nearly as misunderstood as he and everyone else claims.
                              If he's the one making the claim as a general circumstance - and he is - I suspect there's a good chance he's right. I was quite prepared to believe that he meant what he said.
                              I think he just says things that make people have reactions because the things he says challenges their "funny notions" and threatens to unravel their nice neat one dimensional worlds. Thus the reactions.

                              There's a reason most highly technical people are kept locked away in the basements.... it's usually so they don't get burned as witches by the ignorant masses.
                              That may be the funniest comment in this thread.

                              There is a much higher than usual percentage of highly technical people in this group than the general population. I don't see many of those people having significant problems making themselves understood, and I really don't see any effort by anyone here to shut them down. Not to mention that alternative perspectives are discussed here pretty rationally just about every day.

                              Add to that the fact that highly technical people are more likely to have unidimensional views of things, and your post comes across more as comedy than a serious effort at discussion.

                              The types of cognitive spectrum "disorders" (often a very poor word for the situations) that Caliban seemed to be referring to include varying degrees of autism and Asperger's syndrome. I have never had any real problems dealing with high-functioning autistics and Aspies. I suspect that most experienced online marketers have similar experiences, since we're more prone than the general populace to deal with them professionally.


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                              • Profile picture of the author agc
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                Add to that the fact that highly technical people are more likely to have unidimensional views of things, and your post comes across more as comedy than a serious effort at discussion.
                                Game, set, match. Thank you for proving my point. Please play again next time.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                                  Originally Posted by agc View Post

                                  Game, set, match. Thank you for proving my point. Please play again next time.
                                  Come on children - play nice.

                                  This isn't a contest.

                                  Why don't you use Skype to talk about Caliban and how misunderstood he is - you could even invite him into the conversation.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                    Andy,
                                    This isn't a contest.
                                    He thinks it is. And he's uniquely unqualified to play it well.


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                              • Profile picture of the author agc
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                Not to mention that alternative perspectives are discussed here pretty rationally just about every day.
                                Unless the alternative perspective is one that has been arbitrarily determined to be off limits that is.

                                Now that's what I call rational discussion.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                  On the topic of compromise, some things just can't be compromised.

                                  If marketer A wants to contact marketer B by phone and marketer B refuses
                                  to take phone calls, what's the compromise?

                                  There is none.

                                  One of the two, for the JV to take place, has to give in to the other.

                                  That's not compromise.

                                  And the more I think about it, there are a lot of things where you can't
                                  compromise. It's either one way or the other.

                                  What it comes down to is who is willing to give in.

                                  That's not compromise...it's giving in.

                                  Or am I missing something here? :confused:
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                                  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


                                    Or am I missing something here? :confused:
                                    Yes.

                                    Marketer A could call Marketer B via a transcription service...

                                    Marketer A gets to have his phone call and feel all powerful, and marketer B gets an e-mail, or text from the transcription service, of what needs to be said, ensuring that he too, feels powerful.....

                                    Problem solved
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

                                      Yes.

                                      Marketer A could call Marketer B via a transcription service...

                                      Marketer A gets to have his phone call and feel all powerful, and marketer B gets an e-mail, or text from the transcription service, of what needs to be said, ensuring that he too, feels powerful.....

                                      Problem solved
                                      You're assuming that marketer A finds that satisfactory. If I wanted to
                                      speak to somebody directly in real time, I would not find that satisfactory.

                                      Again, it depends on who is willing to bend and how much.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                        You're assuming that marketer A finds that satisfactory. If I wanted to
                                        speak to somebody directly in real time, I would not find that satisfactory.

                                        Again, it depends on who is willing to bend and how much.
                                        You're assuming I was being serious...

                                        You people take yourselves WAY too seriously sometimes. :rolleyes:
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                          Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

                                          You're assuming I was being serious...

                                          You people take yourselves WAY too seriously sometimes. :rolleyes:
                                          Maybe if others would include the properly smilies with their posts, we
                                          idiots would know when you're serious or not.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                            Unless the alternative perspective is one that has been arbitrarily determined to be off limits that is.
                                            Do you think this is the only forum in the world that restricts certain topics? Or that has rules for how things can and cannot be discussed?

                                            Other than keeping things generally on-topic, the rules are pretty open here. Endorsing spam in its various forms, or other destructive or deceptive marketing tactics, is the Big No-No. There are plenty of other places one can have those conversations if they like.

                                            Yes, the decisions are arbitrary. They're made within the bounds of certain agreed upon principles, but the subjective nature of the process of moderating guarantees that there will be some degree of that. The alternative is zero moderation, which wouldn't lead to a very useful environment.

                                            Words like arbitrary and censorship are often bandied about as though they're supposed to be insulting. The fact is, they're parts of the role of moderating. Necessary parts. Whether one thinks the balance is properly maintained is a legitimate debate, but you cannot have a human-moderated forum without some amount of both.


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                                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                      Banned
                                      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

                                      Yes.

                                      Marketer A could call Marketer B via a transcription service...

                                      Marketer A gets to have his phone call and feel all powerful, and marketer B gets an e-mail, or text from the transcription service, of what needs to be said, ensuring that he too, feels powerful.....

                                      Problem solved

                                      haha

                                      I was thinking of morse code but that is much better.

                                      Oh, I almost forgot this for Steven.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Do you still expect to maintain the assertion that you attach no emotional tone to your comments on this issue?
                    I don't have any particular emotional reaction to whether someone is a primadonna squathead. It doesn't make me feel any emotion at all. Is that unusual?

                    And, given the rest of what you've said, "compromise" means "Do it my way."
                    Sometimes. And other times, we do it your way. And neither of us gets what we want every time, because that's what compromise is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Jennings
    At the risk of nobody sitting with me at lunch tomorrow, I'll side with Darklock (dude, I am only saying this because I care -- there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing) in this specific area: picking up the phone and calling someone is no big deal.

    That's a *typical* business action.

    I freaking hate getting called by someone I don't know -- I'd rather have an initial contact via email. But when I do get those calls I don't think any less of the person -- that's what phones are for in business.

    During that initial call if I'm at all interested I'll ask them to send more details via email, and then will usually continue the process that way.

    But thinking it's "wrong" because someone calls you is just weird.

    Jay Jennings
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I know that if I want to be sarcastic in a message, I can easily do that. If I want to offend, I can do that too. Just with my words, I can easily pass on a feeling that I intend to pass on to the reader. If you can't convey a "tone" with your email message, you should probably just throw your computers away and never type a message again.

    In addition, I have been approached for JVs quite a few times and if these same people were to call me on the phone, I would throw my phone in a lake and never get another one. Their idea of a JV is they want the right to sell my websites or to fill up their membership sites with them, but they've given me absolutely no reason why this would benefit me.

    I don't make my phone number readily available and do not want a call from anyone, other than my family. I don't do business over the phone. I do business via email. Email gives me the space to read and digest the message, to delete it without response, to think about whether or not I would want to be involved, etc. A phone call is much more invasive, but then ... I don't have a cell phone and I don't spend a significant amount of time on the phone... and don't want to.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I vote this the most fascinating thread in the 4 years I've been here.

      Paul, thanks for starting it.

      Caliban and everybody else who participated in the "text has tone"
      debate, thanks. Fascinating stuff.

      Dan, thanks for the script writing lesson. I learned that stuff a long time
      ago when I was writing soap scripts for the University of Miami back in 1985.

      I really don't have anything to add to this psychological stuff because you
      people are talking way over my head there.

      All I know is this, and it might sound mercenary, but...when I deal with a
      person...any person...I think to myself one thing.

      What do I have to do to get that person to want to do business with me?

      Nothing else matters.

      Call me a kiss up, suck up, whatever. But if a JV with a particular person
      is THAT important to ME, then I'm thinking of what I have to do to make
      THAT person happy enough to say YES.

      Everything else, IMO, is just posturing.

      Now go and throw stones at me...I have my Sgt Saunders camouflaged
      helmet on.

      Man that was one cool hat.
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      • Profile picture of the author aritrim
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I vote this the most fascinating thread in the 4 years I've been here.

        Paul, thanks for starting it.
        This thread would have hardly received 10 replies if Paul Myers was not the one to start it. Say someone with a post count of 30 started this thread. How many replies would you have expected? 2, 3. Could have been 0.

        Steven, with due respect I would like to ask, what is so fascinating about this thread? A JV email that comes to everyone's mailbox everyday and either remains unread or gets marked as spam or gets deleted in a jiffy?

        Sorry but I might be missing a point here. The "why" factor with this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I think it's possible to sway someone based on the shared context, but no matter how many smilies we put into some communication, some people will simply not relate. Great writers are able to do it with a larger percentage of readers, but even so, never all of them.

    For example, sarcasm. Many people don't relate to these in the same way. They're also very dependent upon delivery. Conveying sarcasm in text takes a lot of effort.

    Sometimes people think I am being condescending when I chunk down on a topic, when my motivation is simply to be implicit, descriptive, precise... okay, even pedantic at times...

    But that's because I take responsibility for the communication. If someone doesn't get the concept, then I take responsibility for not having conveyed it in terms that they were able to connect with.

    There's a dangerously fine line between that, and some people emotionalizing your communication and responding as if you're talking down to them from some ivory academic tower.... never, never, ever my intent in all but maybe 0.025267% of the time.

    I do love me some good irony though.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Michael,

      Conveying sarcasm in text takes a lot of effort.
      O RLY? :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        O RLY? :rolleyes:
        Are you trying to tell me that doesn't rely on the shared experience of this image?



        You know, on another forum, we invented something called the "sarcasm flag" that you could put in a post to mean "everything above this point is sarcastic."

        It looks like this:

        |>
        |

        There's also a Facebook group that proposes you end any sarcastic sentence with a ^ to indicate that it's sarcastic.

        I'd never join that group^
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          You know, on another forum, we invented something called the "sarcasm flag" that you could put in a post to mean "everything above this point is sarcastic."

          It looks like this:

          |>
          |
          I prefer the HTML variant. <sarcasm>Sarcastic statement here.</sarcasm>

          Though sometimes you can simply use the closing tag and not the opening tag. Let people figure it out on their own.

          There's also a Facebook group that proposes you end any sarcastic sentence with a ^ to indicate that it's sarcastic.

          I'd never join that group^
          There are a lot of Facebook groups that propose a lot of stupid things. </notsarcasm>
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          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

            There are a lot of Facebook groups that propose a lot of stupid things. </notsarcasm>
            I don't understand.. Facebook is a truly revolutionary thing. Adults can converse and share without any of the usual immaturity, and also without the unnecessary sharing of random crap, that can be found on social networks.

            Facebook is now a vital part in the social life of any self respecting adult.

            You seem to be implying that stupidity is the order of the day on Facebook, I can tell you right now, that isn't so, Dan.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Michael,



        O RLY? :rolleyes:
        [rolleyes] isn't text, and o rly relies upon the visual image. (... in addition to the O RLY bird that Darklock posted...)

        Otherwise, someone COULD have interpreted your expression as a genuine question of "Oh, really?" as in "Wow, I didn't realize that!"
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi CDarklock,

          "everything above this point is sarcastic."
          I'll just put that in my sig, then

          Hi Michael,

          Fair comment on the smiley, and the picture (must admit I've never seen that bird before) but if you look at what I wrote - including your quote - I don't think that anyone is likely to interpret it in the way that you suggest. In simple terms, if you're responding directly to a quote, it's a lot easier. And if that quote is of a particular nature (EG very specific) - it's even easier.

          Overall though, I wasn't actually suggesting you were wrong, I was just taking the opportunity to make a lighthearted, relevant comment - but I guess that my expression of emotional context failed there. :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi CDarklock,

            I'll just put that in my sig, then

            Hi Michael,

            Fair comment on the smiley, and the picture (must admit I've never seen that bird before) but if you look at what I wrote - including your quote - I don't think that anyone is likely to interpret it in the way that you suggest. In simple terms, if you're responding directly to a quote, it's a lot easier. And if that quote is of a particular nature (EG very specific) - it's even easier.

            Overall though, I wasn't actually suggesting you were wrong, I was just taking the opportunity to make a lighthearted, relevant comment - but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of that via my expression of emotional context through the text. :rolleyes:

            We're just two pedantic lovers of sarcasm.

            (because I was secretly quite entertained by your post)

            Sarcasm is a special animal because irony is actually considered among the highest forms of communication. It requires a particular level of intellect comprehend.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              Sarcasm is a special animal


              |>
              |
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Michael,

              It requires a particular level of intellect comprehend.
              From post#144 -

              but maybe 0.025267% of the time.
              I'm not currently feeling confident about that statistic^

              |>
              |
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              • Profile picture of the author Jay Jennings
                Originally Posted by ExRat View Post


                I'm not currently feeling confident about that statistic^

                |>
                |
                That's a double-sarcasm -- does that mean you're actually being sincere?

                Jay Jennings
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            • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              We're just two pedantic lovers of sarcasm.

              (because I was secretly quite entertained by your post)

              Sarcasm is a special animal because irony is actually considered among the highest forms of communication. It requires a particular level of intellect comprehend.
              Yeah... sure. If you say so, Michael.
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Holy sheite, this topic has really wandered... contextual analysis of internet memes...
                Hi Paul (Myers),

                Sorry for ruining your thread^

                Best Regards,

                The Sarcopath

                PS Jay, I can't work out if you missed off a ^ or not. I assumed you did...
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            • Profile picture of the author RichWest
              I don't know if this has been brought up but, has the thought occurred that who ever wrote this is foreign? Meaning non-English speaking, or at least just learning the English language?
              I am sure you all are right and this is to say the least shady. Although I can't help but think- Imagine if this person is totally legit. and their only problem is writing in English language.
              Just a thought.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          [rolleyes] isn't text
          I have to point out that "O RLY?" does imply sarcasm without the smiley. The smiley was superfluous to the example.

          There are actually three things going on here behind the text.

          First, there's the shared experience of the image, which is pretty ubiquitous on the modern internet. (There's a YA RLY image too. There are also a pair of characters on WoW named Orly and Yarly as a reference to this.)

          Second, even if you have never seen the image, you probably recognise this as either "leetspeak" or "textspeak" - which implies a certain kind of person saying it, and that kind of person would certainly not be saying "oh really, I did not know that" in an accepting fashion.

          And third, if you understand neither of them, the ALL CAPS and omission of several letters would imply that the person saying it must be an idiot. So it additionally communicates "well, an idiot would believe you."

          So it pretty effectively manages to hit just about every generation on the internet with more or less the same IMMEDIATE emotional context... good find, ExRat. I use that image all the time, and I never really analysed why it became so popular and worked so well.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Holy sheite, this topic has really wandered... contextual analysis of internet memes...
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  • Profile picture of the author TimGross
    There's something about that this thread that's very Salvador Dali-esque. Let's have it laminated.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    1. I don't know Paul.

    2. Paul does not know me.

    3. I do not know anything about Paul's list, including what they want.

    4. Paul does know what his list wants.

    5. Join Paul's list and see what he's offering as an affiliate, and to see the products he's created himself.

    6. Buy one, two or three of the products to see what Paul standards are, and to see if my product even comes close.

    7. Understand Paul does not care what I want.

    8. Understand that Paul does not care what he wants.

    9. Paul only cares about his list and what they want.

    10. Send Paul a copy of my product thru priority mail.

    11. If it's a pdf ebook, print it out to make it easier for him to read.

    12. Understand Paul will open his mail over the garbage can, and there is probably a 70% chance it will end up in the garbage unopened, especially if it screams "open me"

    13. Include a bribe of $40 cash for his time.

    14. Include a self addressed stamped envelope (SASE), a piece of paper and a pen for Paul to respond. No need to make him get up and get himself. Include my phone number and email address. It's up to Paul on how he wants to contact me, if he wishes to at all.

    15. Include a copy of the sales letter, and tell him what the converting percentage is. Don't lie. As a pro copy writer he can spot a con-artist from a mile away, and he can recognize a professional, honest marketer

    16. Politely ask if it's something his list would be interested in.

    17. If it only has potential, ask how the product can be touched up or what needs to be added to the offer


    I don't really know anything about joint-ventures, except what I've read in articles every now and then. Never done any deep research on the subject. I might have it all wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I just read this thread for the first time after it's already in to 4 pages.

    The JV message put me off at the point when it said "Hi Myers".

    Here's what my JV tone would be:

    Hey Paul,

    As a long time reader of your newsletter, a fellow WF member and someone focused on helping people achieve real success online I've put a lot of time into the creation of a new product aimed at helping the same people I know you're so passionate about helping and I think everyone would benefit if you were able to help them access and enjoy it.

    Your time and relationship with your readers are both valuable and so I've setup special access for you and a special price for your people.

    Here's what the product does.

    Here's where you can get it.

    Here's your JV link which will both give you preferential commissions and give your people an exclusive discount.

    I'd be happy to hear any feedback you have about making the offer/price/commission a better fit for you and your people.

    Thank you for your time and attention.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author zachary0611
    Subject: I realize you are not that smart, but you have good work ethic

    I have been following your work and it occurs to me that you work in circles. I find it very impressive how much work you can get done with your Neanderthal approach to doing things. If you would like to stop beating your head up against the wall then contact me. If you do not contact me back I completely understand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
    Paul's OP is similar in many ways to the spam I receive on an hourly basis. If I received something like that I would probably mark it as spam and delete it.

    I am not going to try to rewrite that offer but I will give some feedback on JV Requests, Affiliate Promotional Offers and Typical Be My Affiliate Requests that many consider to be Joint Ventures which I do not.

    The ones that have gotten my attention and get me to follow up have been where they over nighted or 2nd day aired a printed invitation, some send a gift along with it. Once got a boomer rang another time a video game. Some send a DVD with the proposal others a binder with printed details.

    One sent a page with a website listed to go check out and a streamed video on it. Wasn't a lot to that so I threw it out and never went to the website, wasn't impressed with it.

    What I look for when someone contacts me to do a JV:

    Is it an Affiliate Request for X amount of percentage and backend? If so, it isn't a JV Request but a Be My Affiliate to promote my product request. Points against sender.

    If the proposal is time limited in anyway, only offering the product or service for X days, weeks and closing doors.. I throw the offer away and note who it was so I don't pay much attention to them in the future.

    I want to know who you are. What you have done. Your experience level and capability to be able to pull off whatever you are proposing.

    Who else is part of this JV and same questions as above about them.

    Then I consider what it is I have to do. How long this Partnership will last, how much I have to train you if any, and how much of my time will need to be involved as well as any investments I have to make such as outsourcing.

    Do I already have a project similar to this either active or in the works?

    Then I look at the percentage of what I would make short term and long term

    Is there someone else I know that may benefit from this more than I, if I can't or don't see it is worth my while. I just forward to them.

    If there are more plus than minus I go forward and contact the person and get to know them one on one. If they treat this like a affiliate program where I promote then get paid I end the conversation and never deal with the person again.

    I have literally more Affiliate opportunities than I could ever promote.
    Joint Venture to me is NOT an affiliate program.
    I don't promote time limited offers that are not my own product.

    The last thing I look at is the product itself. If the proposal does not include access to the product itself, if I am interested I request it but if there are more minuses by this point I just throw the offer away.

    I have big names contact me regularly, sometimes by phone.

    I do know that many successful people out there will NOT promote anything or get involved with anyone they do not personally know, have met in person and like. If they don't know you through face to face contact, they bin your offer.

    I don't have that restriction but I do have a tough filter process.

    When you contact someone for a JV, Joint Venture. BEFORE you contact them, KNOW who they are and what they do. Do research to find out what niche they are in and make sure your product, potential product fits with that AND compliments their business. Otherwise be prepared for never being contacted back and possibly being banned for future business with them other than as a customer. Though you won't ever know that unless they tell you.

    That is my 2 cents on Paul's OP.

    - T
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  • Profile picture of the author Trivum
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?
    I would have changed the following ...

    Myers, stop wasting your time on chicken-feeds
    to ...

    Myers, stop wasting your time on chicken-sh!t.
    I bet that would have turned you.
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  • Profile picture of the author alexmiller
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
      Originally Posted by alexmiller View Post

      After watching Reese's videos, I decided to outsource all my JV proposals.

      Your loss Paul. Maybe someone else will appreciate the million dollar bonus.
      If you're trying to be like Ron, from the first page of this thread, (post #7)
      you forgot the smiley face
      at the end


      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      After watching Reese's videos, I decided to outsource all my JV proposals.

      Your loss Paul. Maybe someone else will appreciate the million dollar bonus.

      |>
      | :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author MAV923
    I would start off with your first name instead your last. or Mr., or even Paul Myers.
    Do a little research on who you are targeting.
    mts? I guess he means minutes, I would not use an abbreviation unless it was in common usage.
    I would find one of your web sites and show how it was a match for what I am proposing.

    I would totally drop the "ignore this email" garbage if you are proposing a jv you are the one in need not the other way around, you have to prove you have something worthwhile show some proof.

    Also drop the "chicken-feeds" comment.

    I would follow up with a phone number for you to call, or a email.
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  • Profile picture of the author allegrity
    Oh wow, this e-mail made me laugh out loud! Started off well, but what happened ahahha
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    Need a mobile website done? Want to offer mobile websites to your existing clients? Mobile work for your clients mounting up and you need assistance? Let's talk.
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  • Profile picture of the author KellyFelix
    Hey Paul, this is a great thread.

    I personally like to receive JV invites that address:

    1) How my subscribers would benefit from your product. This is almost never included. In 10 years I can count on one hand how many times I've been approached with this information.

    2) PROOF that it will work for my subscribers. Again, this has only been sent to me ONCE.

    I don't want conversion stats. I don't want you to appeal to your perception of my greed. I don't want it to be about money at all. I want to see something I haven't seen before. Show me examples of your customers who are now making money thanks to you, and NOT just because they are also selling an ebook about how to get rich by selling an ebook about how to get rich. Show me half a dozen customers who have top 10 Google rankings, or that are crushing it with Youtube, PPC, CPA, etc. And show me how they did it. Do that and I'll be like "Awesome! Let's do this!" We'll figure out the commission and specifics later.

    And please don't try to convince me by chatting me up on gmail or by calling me!

    I would also advise NOT to try humor unless you know me personally. You may think you know me. But you probably don't. I am not the Rich Jerk character. I do not want you to berate me or my subscribers by trying to imitate my old emails.

    I've literally received invites like this:

    subj: Hey Stupid Jerk

    Hey Jerk dude, I'm way smarter than you, you little "bi*ch". I'm gonna pimp slap you if you don't promote this to your dumb subscribers. So let me help you become a richer jerk like me by "allowing" you to promote my new product called "Affiliate Destruction Gold Bar Explosion 3000x". It converts at 42.7% and you will make $11 million dollars today just by clicking send.

    C'mon loser, promote this NOW or DIE.

    A big fan,
    Jamiroquoi Jones
    ----------------

    D-E-L-E-T-E
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    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
      Originally Posted by KellyFelix View Post

      I've literally received invites like this:

      subj: Hey Stupid Jerk

      Hey Jerk dude, I'm way smarter than you, you little "bi*ch". I'm gonna pimp slap you if you don't promote this to your dumb subscribers. So let me help you become a richer jerk like me by "allowing" you to promote my new product called "Affiliate Destruction Gold Bar Explosion 3000x". It converts at 42.7% and you will make $11 million dollars today just by clicking send.

      C'mon loser, promote this NOW or DIE.
      Heh. Funny, although it'd be shocking to me if you didn't get emails like that based on the persona. Bad with the good, and all that...

      I like your phrasing of "perception of my greed":

      I don't want you to appeal to your perception of my greed.
      It goes back to not making automatic assumptions about someone, and researching in advance as best you can to figure out how to approach someone. Funny how personas are sometimes just... personas.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrainCopy
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Yet another example of how not to approach people. This is an unedited copy (other than removing the sender's name) of a "JV request" I just got.

    Subject: Your yet to read emails = 100 + this one

    Hi Myers
    I want to propose a JV

    Can you refer me to one of your manager who manages JV for you? To do a
    proper due-diligence on my proposal.

    I know you don't have 30 mts. Do you have the time to do this a justice
    yourself?

    Ignore this email & forget a US$1 mil bonus coming to you within next 1
    month on top of your normal commissions

    Myers, stop wasting your time on chicken-feeds
    Have fun
    [Name removed]


    The subject line was clever. The intro was at least an attempt to respect the recipient's time. The rest? Not so good...

    How would you have changed this to make it more effective?


    Paul
    I would start with grammar first. I might have to swipe the subject line and tweak it to my liking. Thank you for posting this Paul.
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  • Profile picture of the author tholcomb
    Really Steve, you are acting like an adult. Thanks for the ideas and probably greater success in finding a JV partner.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Posturing doesn't have to be about one upsmanship. Just ask any porcupine ;-)

    I'll watch the clip tonight.
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    One man's terrorist is another man's patriot

    Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground - Frederick Douglas

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Know what boggles my mind about this whole discussion?

      I have NO freaking clue exactly what it is people are arguing about.

      Person A says xyz to Person B and Person B does not interpret what was
      said that way Person A intended and Person A wonders why and in the
      process, thinks Person B is an idiot because he didn't get what person A
      said.

      Is the argument that speech, whether written or communicated orally, should
      technically be so clear that nobody should misunderstand what was said and
      thus, if they do, they're an idiot?

      If that's the argument, we're all idiots from time to time. I don't know one
      person on this planet who didn't say something that wasn't misunderstood
      by somebody.

      I'm sorry, but I'm trying to wrap my mind around exactly what the issue
      is here.

      If I walk up to somebody in the street and say to that person, "What you
      just did was bad manners in polite society" and my only intention was to
      educate him as to what is right, is it his fault if he takes what I said
      personally and thinks I was attacking him?

      Certainly what I said, whether it was personal or not, isn't going to make
      the person happy with me and he has every right to be offended.

      And I was being nice.

      Imagine if I said, "You know, that was just rude"

      And I can be even nastier than that if I want like...

      "You know, you're a real ass doing sh*t like that"

      All 3 things are essentially saying the same thing. And while maybe number
      1 was the nicest way to put it, I certainly have no expectations that it
      should make any difference as to how the person on the other end
      receives it.

      Words have meanings. And whether the intent behind those words was
      malicious or not, the person hearing those words is going to react a
      certain way based on what those words mean to THEM.

      For anybody to insist otherwise, IMO, makes that person totally
      unrealistic in their expectations of others.

      That is my nice way of saying that the person is...well...you can fill in
      your own blanks.

      Because ultimately, that's what people are going to do anyway.

      And wanting it, or expecting it to be different, isn't going to make it so.
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