Even the Truth Isn't Good Enough Anymore

71 replies
This is a comment on the sad state of marketing in one respect - reviews.

Hardly anyone trusts a review anymore. Do you? If you see someone say they've reviewed something, do you automatically think to yourself:

1.) it's a good old boys "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" review or...

2.) if they use an affiliate link, it means they have a backroom JV going on...or...

3.) they're going to bash the product so they can promote something else with a higher commission to me later on?

I finally got the balls to give honest reviews not too long ago without caring if a marketer would get their feelings hurt. I reviewed One Week Marketing - and gave some BAD feedback. And some good. The product wound up making me money (I logged in live to show people as I went through every step of the product).

The reason I did this? Many customers asked me to. They trusted me. Fine. And yes, I used an affiliate link. If I'm taking my business time to go through a product step by step and test drive it for you before you buy, then yes, I feel it's okay for me to earn a commission on it if you decide to buy based on what you learn from my experience. I got some $400+ sales off that honest review - warts and all.

I also got a few hate emails for saying negative things even though I also said it worked, made me money, etc. I get it - they're loyal and protective over her (she's a sweetheart, etc). I wore my big girl panties that day so I could handle it.

Then you'll remember someone posted here the link to that blog post by Kelly Felix coming clean, and I (if you'll google bring the fresh), posted a blog post calling BS on it...possibly. I wasn't sure but I was skeptical.

Kelly responded to my blog post and stated he'd then changed his mind about the no refunds - no guarantee - policy. He changed that (I admire that). He also told me he'd prove me wrong by giving me access to the course so I could see he wasn't bull****ting people.

I said fine - I felt it was only fair to give an honest review after bashing his "coming clean" blog post, which at the time I felt was nothing more than a spiel prior to a product launch - BTF.

This is another product many of my customers have asked me to review - why? Who doesn't want to "watch over the Rich Jerk's shoulder" as he makes zillions of dollars online. I understand why.

So I started my review today. Again, I start with the sales copy. I break it down because I want to see once I dig in if the product lives up to the hype of the sales copy. I pointed out the negatives or areas where I was skeptical and also the good points.

I didn't even dig into the product yet and here comes an email from a guy calling bull**** on ME. lol - says I'm very clever for JVing with Kelly Felix on this. Um, I'm pretty sure my bank account reflects that I don't play that game. I could be rich as hell now - trust me. I've been invited into some major product launches. I never participate. Ever. I like to try things out first.

I am ranting - I know. I'm just sad for this particular 3 month newcomer to IM that this early in the game, he trusts NO ONE. Not even someone with every intention of truly showing him the good the bad and the ugly.

That's sad...isn't it?

Tiff

PS - I'm in Texas and having my air conditioner replaced right now. It's hot. I may be delirious. lol
#anymore #good #truth
  • Profile picture of the author Ben Roy
    I agree with you. I find it difficult to research/identify quality products in the IM space (or any niche with lots of marketers) because so much of anything written about it is intended to sound genuine but is really just affiliate sales. I pretty much rely on personal recommendations for anything I need to buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Hardly anyone trusts a review anymore. Do you?
    No. I trust people. If a person I trust reviews something, I'll listen.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Soapyshoe
      It's all karma - the people who fail to build up trust and "pound" their lists are trading what would be a strong long-term asset for a few pieces of "silver" for playing Judas.

      If they want to play that game, let them.

      Just be careful about feeding people TOO MUCH information.

      Your customers want your advice.

      The ones who are trolling or baiting you aren't your customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    TiffanyDow,

    You seem nice, and all you said is right. Don't take it personally.

    One company I do business with won't even show the score for current reviews unless there are enough. That number increases if things vary too much. Even THEN, they print a disclaimer PAGE! Not a simple blurb, but a page that hits you in the face EVERY time you switch.

    Hey, they are a great company, and I buy from them every couple weeks, over $100 each time, but they must really feel they HAVE to do this.

    And YEAH, I followed reviews from people here too often. I don't anymore. The "good old boys "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" review " is a VERY real phenomenon.

    But don't take it personally.

    And YEAH, it IS sad. IMAGINE where humanity would be today if everyone were altruistic! It boggles the mind.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
    You just can't please some people. They will be skeptical no matter what you do, unfortunately. Hopefully that guy will realize that not everyone is out to get him. I guess it just goes to show you how much crap is out there if he can't trust someone who is genuine. That's the IM world, for ya
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  • Profile picture of the author Ilya Feynberg
    I solve the problem by simply approaching my business as a real business and company...which it is of course. Meaning, I simply have no use to even consider any "IM" type products.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Look Tiffany ... I remember that Rich Jerk thread very well because I defended Kelly in it and got a bunch of flack for it, which doesn't bother me at all.

    I defended him because I bought the RJ ebook and it was the beginning of my online career and it's been lucrative. There were a lot of things that he sold that I didn't buy and he apologized for some of those things.

    I was not JV or an affiliate in any way of Kelly's new Bring the Fresh product. I would love to be able to give a review myself. I too was given access because of my defense in that thread and all the crap I got back.

    Unfortunately, as with most products these days, they are based on videos. Being on dialup, I cannot watch videos, so haven't been able to see what it's all about, although I do appreciate the course anyway.

    Don't worry about what people say ... speak your mind, give a fair review and they can go piss up a rope.
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    This is a comment on the sad state of marketing in one respect - reviews.

    Hardly anyone trusts a review anymore. Do you? If you see someone say they've reviewed something, do you automatically think to yourself:

    1.) it's a good old boys "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" review or...

    2.) if they use an affiliate link, it means they have a backroom JV going on...or...

    3.) they're going to bash the product so they can promote something else with a higher commission to me later on?

    I finally got the balls to give honest reviews not too long ago without caring if a marketer would get their feelings hurt. I reviewed One Week Marketing - and gave some BAD feedback. And some good. The product wound up making me money (I logged in live to show people as I went through every step of the product).

    The reason I did this? Many customers asked me to. They trusted me. Fine. And yes, I used an affiliate link. If I'm taking my business time to go through a product step by step and test drive it for you before you buy, then yes, I feel it's okay for me to earn a commission on it if you decide to buy based on what you learn from my experience. I got some $400+ sales off that honest review - warts and all.

    I also got a few hate emails for saying negative things even though I also said it worked, made me money, etc. I get it - they're loyal and protective over her (she's a sweetheart, etc). I wore my big girl panties that day so I could handle it.

    Then you'll remember someone posted here the link to that blog post by Kelly Felix coming clean, and I (if you'll google bring the fresh), posted a blog post calling BS on it...possibly. I wasn't sure but I was skeptical.

    Kelly responded to my blog post and stated he'd then changed his mind about the no refunds - no guarantee - policy. He changed that (I admire that). He also told me he'd prove me wrong by giving me access to the course so I could see he wasn't bull****ting people.

    I said fine - I felt it was only fair to give an honest review after bashing his "coming clean" blog post, which at the time I felt was nothing more than a spiel prior to a product launch - BTF.

    This is another product many of my customers have asked me to review - why? Who doesn't want to "watch over the Rich Jerk's shoulder" as he makes zillions of dollars online. I understand why.

    So I started my review today. Again, I start with the sales copy. I break it down because I want to see once I dig in if the product lives up to the hype of the sales copy. I pointed out the negatives or areas where I was skeptical and also the good points.

    I didn't even dig into the product yet and here comes an email from a guy calling bull**** on ME. lol - says I'm very clever for JVing with Kelly Felix on this. Um, I'm pretty sure my bank account reflects that I don't play that game. I could be rich as hell now - trust me. I've been invited into some major product launches. I never participate. Ever. I like to try things out first.

    I am ranting - I know. I'm just sad for this particular 3 month newcomer to IM that this early in the game, he trusts NO ONE. Not even someone with every intention of truly showing him the good the bad and the ugly.

    That's sad...isn't it?

    Tiff

    PS - I'm in Texas and having my air conditioner replaced right now. It's hot. I may be delirious. lol

    Where is your review of One Week Marketing, Tiff? Did you do that a while ago? I'd like to read it....
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    • Profile picture of the author Nigel Greaves
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      Where is your review of One Week Marketing, Tiff? Did you do that a while ago? I'd like to read it....
      Here you go Howie, Final One Week Marketing Decision - Tiff's too much of a lady to self promote!

      Nigel
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves View Post

        Here you go Howie, Final One Week Marketing Decision - Tiff's too much of a lady to self promote!

        Nigel
        lol...I know

        Boy...there's some good stuff over there on her blog....Just read through her 'bring the fresh" review....

        Although possible, that "$12,000 per day" (mentioned in his sales copy, as mentioned in the review) seems to have triggered alot of negative sentiment....and, some of the comments reflect that....

        Thought it was funny how one of the commenters said THIS:

        "If you're gonna lie, may as well lie big, right?"
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          How many review "parts" do you think you'll have for "Bring the Fresh", Tiffany?....

          Just read through your first part, and at that rate, it looks like it could have quite a few more parts. I, for one, really appreciate the careful dissection of it....and look forward to more!
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          • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
            Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

            How many review "parts" do you think you'll have for "Bring the Fresh", Tiffany?....

            Just read through your first part, and at that rate, it looks like it could have quite a few more parts. I, for one, really appreciate the careful dissection of it....and look forward to more!
            Each product review depends. I dissect each step and I write my blog post literally as I do the work. So if it says post a link here, I do it, add to my blog post, etc. It takes a long time. I don't know how many my OWM wound up having - a LOT. lol. Out of courtesy I emailed Mike and Kelly so they could watch my review unfold (you always hope they learn from what myself and people who comment on it think and make changes for the better. He thought it was hilarious that I actually reviewed the sales copy. BUT...it's important, right? At the end of my review, I want to be able to tell people whether or not it lived up to its promises...and those promises are in the sales copy.


            Originally Posted by Darren L Carter View Post

            Have you had any bad experiences with giving bad reviews?

            Peace,
            Darren L Carter
            Well so far I've done 3 real raw reviews.

            1st one I reviewed One Week Marketing. The only thing bad to come out of that was Jennifer was hurt by one of the comments and she started a thread on HER blog where people bashed me for not censoring people. I don't censor my blog comments (unless someone comes in with racist comments or something ridiculous). A couple of hate emails from people saying I was a meanie for my review...even though she made sales from it. And FYI I've sold a few more Bearded Dragon guides this week! LOL

            2nd one I did was my own Squidoo guide...I bashed it hard. I'm redoing it. People thought I was crazy but it was eye opening. For instance, I discovered that I have 20-22 pages of theory before anyone ever gets started building a lens. Unacceptable.

            3rd one I tried was SENuke and it was not for me, so I ended my review. I didn't even finish it - and the owner was very nice about it all. A class act.

            FYI after I did my OWM review, I got a flurry of emails from people wanting me to rip THEIR product apart...just not enough time to do them all.
            tiff
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            • Profile picture of the author Darren L Carter
              Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

              Each product review depends. I dissect each step and I write my blog post literally as I do the work. So if it says post a link here, I do it, add to my blog post, etc. It takes a long time. I don't know how many my OWM wound up having - a LOT. lol. Out of courtesy I emailed Mike and Kelly so they could watch my review unfold (you always hope they learn from what myself and people who comment on it think and make changes for the better. He thought it was hilarious that I actually reviewed the sales copy. BUT...it's important, right? At the end of my review, I want to be able to tell people whether or not it lived up to its promises...and those promises are in the sales copy.




              Well so far I've done 3 real raw reviews.

              1st one I reviewed One Week Marketing. The only thing bad to come out of that was Jennifer was hurt by one of the comments and she started a thread on HER blog where people bashed me for not censoring people. I don't censor my blog comments (unless someone comes in with racist comments or something ridiculous). A couple of hate emails from people saying I was a meanie for my review...even though she made sales from it. And FYI I've sold a few more Bearded Dragon guides this week! LOL

              2nd one I did was my own Squidoo guide...I bashed it hard. I'm redoing it. People thought I was crazy but it was eye opening. For instance, I discovered that I have 20-22 pages of theory before anyone ever gets started building a lens. Unacceptable.

              3rd one I tried was SENuke and it was not for me, so I ended my review. I didn't even finish it - and the owner was very nice about it all. A class act.

              FYI after I did my OWM review, I got a flurry of emails from people wanting me to rip THEIR product apart...just not enough time to do them all.
              tiff
              Cool. Those are pretty interesting results actually.

              Peace,
              Darren L Carter
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves View Post

        Here you go Howie, Final One Week Marketing Decision - Tiff's too much of a lady to self promote!

        Nigel
        Tiffany (or anyone),

        If you don't mind me asking, what does the "One Week Marketing" "a Conversation with Nick" book consist of?....is that like a 2 or 3 page interview?

        ...the graphic on her sales page makes it appear to be at least a somewhat lengthy book....is it at least 50-100 pages?
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Seems like a legitimate concern that can be solved civilly.
          There are few things that cannot be solved civilly when the people are saying honestly what they think - and listening to and considering what the other person says.

          kay
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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          • Profile picture of the author pappyy3
            It's sad that 'salesy' (is that a word?) marketing techiniques have made it hard for the genuine review sites.

            I still take note of review sites, but it's pretty obvious when you come across the sales focussed ones. Every product reviewed oh their sites gets a glowing report, blahh, blahh, blahh

            I'm afraid to say, it's also quite obvious in many of the WF review forum pages and wso forum pages as well.

            As far as refunds go, I agree with the others. I now have absolutely no hesitation in requesting a refund for products that usually turn out to be re-hashed garbage. If it take me 5,10, or 15 minutes to realize this, then that's how long it takes me to claim a refund. No ulterior motives here. I'm not after a free product -- just a good one

            When I get a refund, I usually delete the product anyway so I don't have any unecessary junk cluttering up my hard-drive
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            Tonster

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            • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
              Originally Posted by pappyy3 View Post

              It's sad that 'salesy' (is that a word?) marketing techiniques have made it hard for the genuine review sites.

              I still take note of review sites, but it's pretty obvious when you come across the sales focussed ones. Every product reviewed oh their sites gets a glowing report, blahh, blahh, blahh

              I'm afraid to say, it's also quite obvious in many of the WF review forum pages and wso forum pages as well.

              As far as refunds go, I agree with the others. I now have absolutely no hesitation in requesting a refund for products that usually turn out to be re-hashed garbage. If it take me 5,10, or 15 minutes to realize this, then that's how long it takes me to claim a refund. No ulterior motives here. I'm not after a free product -- just a good one

              When I get a refund, I usually delete the product anyway so I don't have any unecessary junk cluttering up my hard-drive
              How many different ways can people regurgitate the same Facebook and Twitter stuff though? If you buy a product like that, and expect something TRULY different from all the other million and one Twitter and Facebook products, chances are, I'd think, you'd probably be let down.....I'm not sure one should be asking for a refund if they constantly purchase Facebook products, expecting to read something incredibly new and groundbreaking each time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    The reason why it's getting harder to sell on face value, through cold traffic, using things like reviews, is because more and more people are clogging up the net with fake reviews and reviews which promote stuff purely for the commission.

    Folks are getting hip to it. They know when you're using reverse psychology. They know when you're just blowing smoke.

    So, they raise their BS detector, to compensate for those "negative" reviews which are actually just using reverse psychology.

    They learned that little trick back in nappies. But they learned it again in that eBook which teaches you how to use it in marketing online.

    And I actually agree with you Tifanny - there IS a certain element of "don't talk sh#t about my product, or I'll talk sh#t about you and I'll argue with you in forums" aspect to this industry.

    I've seen it personally.

    You know, that's a major circling flaw in this IM 2 IM niche - you're "not allowed" to slate products, because it makes you look either cynical or like a strategic competitor....

    ...and therefore, too many folks are afraid to say what they really think (ala Amazon), and this leaves certain "marketers" to run free, building more scepticism when the next guy or gal comes along and doesn't get what they were sold on.

    You see it in this forum, in blogs...everywhere.

    Why?

    Loyalty. Commitment. Consistency.

    Once someone has decided to buy it (or has already bought it), they will stand behind it beyond logic or reason.

    They don't care much for your review...unless it's negative.

    Of course, this is a generalization. Not all marketers fall under that umbrella.
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

      The reason why it's getting harder to sell on face value, through cold traffic, using things like reviews, is because more and more people are clogging up the net with fake reviews and reviews which promote stuff purely for the commission.
      I was just on a site where there were a bunch of REAL comments about how much people loved a product - people that OWNED the product and are active in the products forum - and this is a low-cost product ($77 or less)...

      Here's what someone posted:

      "I've heard about this and read alot about NB too. The only thing I am concerned about is every comment on this site seems fake because everyone knows all about it and half the people haven't even tried it. So if you prove me wrong I will be more than willing to try this product out just due to the reviews and stuff I've read. So please prove me wrong and tell me this is no scam."

      My BET (no proof on this) is this person has seen so many flogs with fake comments that he just assumes comments are fake now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Darren L Carter
    Great thread here.

    I'm new but this is something I have noticed and was curious about with the internet marketing world.

    Have you had any bad experiences with giving bad reviews?

    Peace,
    Darren L Carter
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    • Profile picture of the author houseaz
      I don't think the truth has ever really been good enough to be honest it's just that there are more of us now who understand the posturing of how we present ourselves. I don't trust any reviews unfortunately except from people I've learned to trust over time. I also try not to recommend things unless people ask me for them.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Since people naturally approach products with skepticisms (probably because they have been ripped off on occasion, or a variety of other reasons), perhaps the best approach we Internet Marketers can take is to survey blogs and platforms, and form solid relationships with people who ARE trusted.....

        With trust and transparency comes a true and loyal following....if you can't secure that yourself, GIVING to those who ARE trusted by a mass of people, whether it be through helping them somehow or consistently posting on their blog, could be a really viable strategy to gaining for your product(s) the headway that it deserves....

        This all clearly takes time, because relationship building and nurturing takes time. It took me nearly 5-6 months of consistent contribution to a gentleman's blog for him to even give a product of mine the time of day....this stuff isn't easy and it takes time and work....and genuiness and sincerity....I contributed because I loved his blog, and worked very hard to apply the principles he was teaching me, and I kept him abreast of my own ventures as well as how EXACTLY I had been applying the principles he was teaching....

        I made it a goal to become his first "case study"....low and behold, he was interviewed by Darren Rowse, of problogger.net fame recently...but, best of all, relationship building, with someone who has been proven to be extremely trustworthy, has really gone a long way for my product(s)....

        Reviews from just anyone won't do the trick....you need to be genuine, but, you also need to analyze the influence of others....many of my customers have been pre-sold because of a single review and testimonial....the relationship has proven to be invaluable....but, I still genuinly contribute to his blog and helping him succeed as well...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This is a comment on the sad state of marketing in one respect - reviews.
      I agree - and I like most of your stuff. However, it's also a sad state of marketing when you post in someone else's WSO to tell potential buyers that YOU will be fully testing and reviewing the product (unsolicited review) and then don't follow through. Sales stop as people wait for your review and the thread goes negative as people draw conclusions about your silence. It is damaging to the WSO seller even though your intentions were good.

      kay
      Signature
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      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
    Banned
    The sky is blue, water is wet, and most reviews are biased. This isn't a new thing. Bill Phillps (Author of Body for Life), built his entire supplement business by giving away an "Unbiased" review guide without disclosing that he had a financial stake in a major supplement company.

    I don't worry about people getting duped to be honest or becoming too hardened. People need to learn to become EXTREME skeptics about all the information/reviews they take in. If they need to learn a couple lessons the hard way, then so be it.

    I had a conversation with my sister about something like this not long ago. She was meeting with a financial advisor and I gave her a list of questions to ask about the fee structure. She said she felt bad asking the questions because they seemed like she didn't trust him. I told her that any big purchase that I make, it's guilty until proven innocent....they need to make the case to ME why they are worth spending my hard earned money on...and they aren't going to do it by providing me fluff reviews.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    People get pissy because they think they can download something, skim through and then ask for a refund 5 minutes later. I don't play that game, and don't have a refund policy on it. I am embarrassed that one of my products has been dragged into this becayse we choose to run our businesses in our own way.. now if someone put the WSO to good use and fails to benefit from it, I will personally help them and work with them one-on-one until they start experiencing the benefits. Can't say fairer than that for customer support, and I carry a disclaimer.. which is rare in the WSO board.
    Signature
    IMPORTANT MESSAGE: I'm currently on vacation & will answer all messages when I return - Happy Holidays!!
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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      People get pissy because they think they can download something, skim through and then ask for a refund 5 minutes later. I don't play that game, and don't have a refund policy on it. We each choose to run our businesses in our own way.. now if someone put the WSO to good use and fails to benefit from it, I will personally help them and work with them one-on-one until they start experiencing the benefits. Can't say fairer than that for customer support, and I carry a disclaimer.. which is rare in the WSO board.
      You have the right to set whatever rules you want. I don't take issue with it personally and bought it knowing that in advance. No gripe from me about that. If you tell them up front then it's a risk on their shoulders.

      Just clarifying.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      People get pissy because they think they can download something, skim through and then ask for a refund 5 minutes later. I don't play that game, and don't have a refund policy on it. We each choose to run our businesses in our own way.. now if someone put the WSO to good use and fails to benefit from it, I will personally help them and work with them one-on-one until they start experiencing the benefits. Can't say fairer than that for customer support, and I carry a disclaimer.. which is rare in the WSO board.
      Obviously I'm not speaking of your products cause I've never purchased them, but there are many products I've bought and wanted to refund in 5 minutes. Full of fluff and rehashed information. I'm not trying to scam anyone, I'll never read it again.

      But, I'm actually one of those people that will buy because of hte refund policy. This pushes me to purchase more products that I wouldn't if there wasn't one. Some works out, some don't.
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      • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
        Originally Posted by Ryan D View Post

        Obviously I'm not speaking of your products cause I've never purchased them, but there are many products I've bought and wanted to refund in 5 minutes. Full of fluff and rehashed information. I'm not trying to scam anyone, I'll never read it again.

        But, I'm actually one of those people that will buy because of hte refund policy. This pushes me to purchase more products that I wouldn't if there wasn't one. Some works out, some don't.
        I hear what you're saying, I've found that it's usually the seller who gets scammed when they offer a refund policy.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      People get pissy because they think they can download something, skim through and then ask for a refund 5 minutes later. I don't play that game, and don't have a refund policy on it. We each choose to run our businesses in our own way.. now if someone put the WSO to good use and fails to benefit from it, I will personally help them and work with them one-on-one until they start experiencing the benefits. Can't say fairer than that for customer support, and I carry a disclaimer.. which is rare in the WSO board.
      Sad ... sad ... sad. All those people wanting refunds and Tiffany is to blame for that going negative.

      All sales are final. I removed the guarantee from the sales page weeks ago, because people have to take action for this to work. Some people believe that just purchasing the product is enough.
      You started out with a refund policy and when it became clear that some people wanted one, you removed it. Refunds are a part of good business and it's bad business to offer one, remove it and deny refunds when customers are clearly unhappy with the product.

      You made very specific income claims and quite a few people were beggging for testimonials verifying those income claims and none were forthcoming. Your only answer was conversions = sales, rather than having testimonials saying ... yeah bud, I am making $1,000 a day, just like she said I would.

      I'm not even done the thread but it's painful to read.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    Don't worry I'm not up for being dragged into debates on a forum
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaunman
      Hardly anyone trusts a review anymore. Do you? If you see someone say they've reviewed something, do you automatically think to yourself:
      You know I trust forums a lot more then I trust blog reviews but I think that is basically just because I am "internet wise" I know the review is trying to sell me something, forums on the other hand are just random people's opinions.

      But you know if I wasn't online so much and didn't know what affiliate marketing was, which includeds 90% of the people in the world, I wouldn't think twice about it.

      In fact I have seen people buy an expensive lap top computer just because of something a blog said about it. Reviews still work, you just need to be trusted and/or market in a niche where people aren't suspicious of you.
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      • Profile picture of the author genietoast
        Hi, Tiffany.

        Well, it definitely takes guts to go ahead and review products thoroughly and be truthful about how they work from your experience. I think that's the best way people can learn.

        Some people will like it. Some people will not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Tiffany is a class act and a rarity in our niche, someone who insists on reviewing a product before promoting it.

      And not just for the products of the "big dawgs". We asked Tiffany to promote one of our products and she actually checked out the goods inside, kicked the tires, and gave an honest review to her peeps. Very few do this.

      The truth is the truth. Her blog post about BTF is now in the top 5 searches in Google so those dudes know it's in their best interest to let her review the actual course and I know whether her review is good or bad it will be the truth. No JV conspiracies.

      To paraphrase the movie voice over guy... in a world gone mad with fake merge tags reviews, here comes a real review!
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by Ryan D View Post

        The sky is blue, water is wet, and most reviews are biased. This isn't a new thing. Bill Phillps (Author of Body for Life), built his entire supplement business by giving away an "Unbiased" review guide without disclosing that he had a financial stake in a major supplement company.
        And Amazon made its' multi billion dollar empire purely on the opposite.

        (oh, and by using one of the first affiliate programs online)

        Reviews can work, and work well. How many times do you look at Amazon reviews before adding to cart? Personally, it's religious to me.

        But hark, those reviews are a mere few paragraphs long (at best). So what lesson can we learn from that?

        Trust comes from branding, and social proof (not always, but this is how the big boys do it)

        Branding takes time, but when you've got real social proof from the masses, it sells products like no other. One person creating a website dedicated to a particular product screams of affiliation and fan boy antics...

        ...not quite the same effect that Amazon has, is it?
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

          And Amazon made its' multi billion dollar empire purely on the opposite.

          (oh, and by using one of the first affiliate programs online)

          Reviews can work, and work well. How many times do you look at Amazon reviews before adding to cart? Personally, it's religious to me.

          But hark, those reviews are a mere few paragraphs long (at best). So what lesson can we learn from that?

          Trust comes from branding, and social proof (not always, but this is how the big boys do it)

          Branding takes time, but when you've got real social proof from the masses, it sells products like no other. One person creating a website dedicated to a particular product screams of affiliation and fan boy antics...

          ...not quite the same effect that Amazon has, is it?
          Well the reviews on Amazon can also be fake. Even big companies like Belkin were busted buying good reviews and burying bad ones:

          Belkin rep hiring folks to write fake reviews on Amazon? -- Engadget

          I'm pretty sure they're not the only ones. They just got busted. I don't follow any companies system religiously even companies I love like Amazon.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

          And Amazon made its' multi billion dollar empire purely on the opposite.

          (oh, and by using one of the first affiliate programs online)

          Reviews can work, and work well. How many times do you look at Amazon reviews before adding to cart? Personally, it's religious to me.

          But hark, those reviews are a mere few paragraphs long (at best). So what lesson can we learn from that?

          Trust comes from branding, and social proof (not always, but this is how the big boys do it)

          Branding takes time, but when you've got real social proof from the masses, it sells products like no other. One person creating a website dedicated to a particular product screams of affiliation and fan boy antics...

          ...not quite the same effect that Amazon has, is it?
          The point was that biased/glowing reviews from financial partners is not something limited to the internet. It's been going on for a long time and will continue to go on. The only answer is a very skeptical public.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        Tiffany is a class act and a rarity in our niche, someone who insists on reviewing a product before promoting it.

        And not just for the products of the "big dawgs". We asked Tiffany to promote one of our products and she actually checked out the goods inside, kicked the tires, and gave an honest review to her peeps. Very few do this.

        The truth is the truth. Her blog post about BTF is now in the top 5 searches in Google so those dudes know it's in their best interest to let her review the actual course and I know whether her review is good or bad it will be the truth. No JV conspiracies.

        To paraphrase the movie voice over guy... in a world gone mad with fake merge tags reviews, here comes a real review!
        I really appreciate the fact that she is REALLY dissecting these products....and, not just skewing a review one way or the other just to get affiliate commissions. A real review like that is pure gold....even if your product sucks, Tiffany is giving some serious feedback that people can go back and address the deficiencies and short coming of their products. I loved her review of that One Week Marketing course....that creator could seriously take her feedback and make a MUCH MUCH better product, if she addressed the deficiencies and organizational issues that Tiffany mentioned in her review....

        That's not just a review....that's flat out guidance on how to structure a product and address shortcomings, so that customers are happier in the long and short run AND they will be less inclined to ask for refunds.....She could be charging serious dough for those reviews. She's basically giving flat-out guidance on how to make a product successful, even long after it's been released. If your product sucks....address the issues....and drive on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    Subccriarel once the black H types got wind they started to steal my product, I'm protecting my business. People making purchases, then requesting a refund within minutes isn't how I want to run my business. Many people have made more money with it, and have stated so. I don't promise anybody will make the same as I do.. I make that 100% clear on the thread. Nor can I control what people say or do about reviews from Tiffany, or anyone. I share my techniques, what they do with that info is up to them. Nobody is stopping you from running your business however you believe it should be run, and what works for you. I am embarrassed that my product has been dragged into this debate.

    There's no point in hijacking this thread.

    Back on topic, I always look forward to Tiffany's reviews and understand just how much time is involved with providing a free service for the benefit of the marketing community, which she does without asking anything in return. I don't agree with people attacking her (or anyone attacking anybody else) for expressing an opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    Tiffany, I have always found your honesty refreshing. Thanks for being one person willing to call it as you see it. Sorry the A/C is out but at least it is not mid July
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Rhome
    I was asking the good people of the WF for a good camera to buy, and many suggested the Kodak Zi8. Unbiased recommendation, too.

    Well what a SHOCK when I browsed the web for some other feedback on that camera. I got REAL REVIEWS everywhere I looked - ezine, blogs, you name it. We're so used to junk reviews in the IM world that it was real refreshing for me to see that real reviews still do exist out there.

    As for IM reviews, that's why I come here, to the WF! Otherwise, no I don't trust them very much. As for testimonials, I almost never read them.
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  • Profile picture of the author shabit87
    I trust reviews, but I read them...really read them. THere is certain wording that can be used that is very "general" I look for specifics and I'm not talking about the bulletin points in the sales letter. I also like to see how they've applied the product and used it. Sometimes you can sell without having to say hey I'm selling (hope that makes sense).

    Also a great review is selling, its explaining...its answering the questions I haven't yet asked, its letting me know what the product has to offer and leaving me to determine whether the investment is right for me. SO to answer your question yes and no, but ultimetly I do.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by shabit87 View Post

      I trust reviews, but I read them...really read them. THere is certain wording that can be used that is very "general" I look for specifics and I'm not talking about the bulletin points in the sales letter. I also like to see how they've applied the product and used it. Sometimes you can sell without having to say hey I'm selling (hope that makes sense).

      Also a great review is selling, its explaining...its answering the questions I haven't yet asked, its letting me know what the product has to offer and leaving me to determine whether the investment is right for me. SO to answer your question yes and no, but ultimetly I do.
      Very wise approach here.

      A strong FAQs page can work wonders as well
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Tiff - I reread that thread and I was wrong about your offer leading to negativity. I apologize for that as the negatives seem to be from a few people posting several times each and not connected to your posts.

        I have no doubt that your intentions were to do exactly what you offered and I understand how time can run away too quickly. I would have thought nothing about a post saying "Just bought - will let you know what I think" in that thread. But you mentioned receiving a complaint about the WSO and laid out your plan of action - and that created interest.

        When you have a good rep and your opinions are trusted, what you post is taken seriously and given weight. Nothing wrong with "I don't have time to do this after all" or "give me a few more weeks to get this done". You did post about the delay on Apr 1- with a promise to "start this week" but nothing since then...until today. It was the lack of any followup about progress or delay that bothered me.

        But, then again, if the WSO seller doesn't have a problem with it - it's not an issue except in my own mind...and maybe that mind is just out to lunch.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Tiff - I reread that thread and I was wrong about your offer leading to negativity. I apologize for that as the negatives seem to be from a few people posting several times each and not connected to your posts.

          I have no doubt that your intentions were to do exactly what you offered and I understand how time can run away too quickly. I would have thought nothing about a post saying "Just bought - will let you know what I think" in that thread. But you mentioned receiving a complaint about the WSO and laid out your plan of action - and that created interest.

          When you have a good rep and your opinions are trusted, what you post is taken seriously and given weight. Nothing wrong with "I don't have time to do this after all" or "give me a few more weeks to get this done". You did post about the delay on Apr 1- with a promise to "start this week" but nothing since then...until today. It was the lack of any followup about progress or delay that bothered me.

          But, then again, if the WSO seller doesn't have a problem with it - it's not an issue except in my own mind...and maybe that mind is just out to lunch.

          kay
          Seems like a legitimate concern that can be solved civilly. People do get busy, and with the thoroughness that Tiffany seems to give to other products, the wait may be worth it for a review...especially if it's anything like the one's on her site. Whether good or bad, that degree of attentiveness to dissecting a product can produce extremely valuable feedback that can manifest in happier customers, less refunds, and an overall better product. (if the recommended changes are really applied)

          I wish you both the best....
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        • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Tiff - I reread that thread and I was wrong about your offer leading to negativity. I apologize for that as the negatives seem to be from a few people posting several times each and not connected to your posts.

          I have no doubt that your intentions were to do exactly what you offered and I understand how time can run away too quickly. I would have thought nothing about a post saying "Just bought - will let you know what I think" in that thread. But you mentioned receiving a complaint about the WSO and laid out your plan of action - and that created interest.

          When you have a good rep and your opinions are trusted, what you post is taken seriously and given weight. Nothing wrong with "I don't have time to do this after all" or "give me a few more weeks to get this done". You did post about the delay on Apr 1- with a promise to "start this week" but nothing since then...until today. It was the lack of any followup about progress or delay that bothered me.

          But, then again, if the WSO seller doesn't have a problem with it - it's not an issue except in my own mind...and maybe that mind is just out to lunch.

          kay
          Thanks Kay! I appreciate that and I DID agree that my post left people wondering...but not about the negativity, which is why I went another time to clarify I still hadn't gotten started.

          My list subscribers know that I got my kids' tuition bill and started on a big campaign to raise their tuition for private school. I didn't even remember the WSO was waiting for me at the time - it's in a folder in FireFox so when "life" settles back down I'll see it and remember to go do that.

          Anyhoo...it's all good.
          Tiff
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  • Profile picture of the author xatsmann
    Hi, I'm a newbie here when it comes to IM and I just wanted to say a few things from perspective--that of a newbie who doesn't really know anyone here and has no axe to grind. I've also enjoyed this discussion and appreciate the time everyone took, even those I maybe disagreeing with, to write such good posts.

    First of all let me say this about truth and reviews of anything--products, music, books, movies, etc.., etc..--most of the truth is only a "truth" for the person reviewing it. I took the liberty of reading and reviewing Tiffany's original review and she was very careful to note this throughout her review but I felt that it was, for me anyway, unnecessary as I think it is par for the course with reviews.

    People who expect everyone to give a positive review just make it difficult for everyone to take their reviews seriously. If your product is that good than the criticism won't stop people from buying and using it or you can change the product to take the critique into account. Expecting all reviewers to write rave reviews is unrealistic and defeats the purpose of having reviews at all. If I want to hear how great your product is I can just read the sales copy.

    Since different reviewers have different tastes, I like to read more than one review wherever possible and I like a review who is upfront, about their tastes. For example, I've written many book and movie reviews in my day but I don't generally don't like romantic movies or books so I would say that before reviewing any romantic movie or book--that's not to say my criticism isn't going to be warranted but one should consider the source.

    Second, speaking as customer, I don't trust any review, longer than a few paragraphs that has NOTHING negative to say in their reviews, even if it is something that the marketer is up front about, i.e. "this product is will take at least 30 days to show results," or "is not recommended for newbies." No one has the same taste, opinions, whatever as everyone else so people should naturally disagree about some things, its a normal part of everyday life--only God and small children always expect to have everything to be exactly as they want it all the time (and small children, if raised well, soon find out they aren't God and won't get what they want all the time.)

    Third, I have no problem with relationships between the reviewer and the person being reviewed as it were as long as the both parties are up front about it. Will it affect the review? The reader, as he or she always is, will be the judge of that.

    Fourth, as for the stuff about refunds--if you offer a refund you should honour it as long as it conforms to your refund policy. If you won't offer a refund until at least 60 minutes or 24 hours, or whatever, after a sale than say so in the policy and I mean right up front. Also, don't scream refunds are available in a 48 point font and then bury the restrictions several screens down in 9 point font. If you make something a selling point then explain it fully with the offer and be prepared to back it up.

    Finally, I think some of the people here need to dial down the sales rhetoric. Some of the signatures are even a bit over the top and would put an insurance salesman to shame. If you're going to say stuff like "How to make $X,XXX in your first hour" don't be surprised if people ignore the disclaimer about the results not being guaranteed and your mileage may vary. The public will end up like the dog in the old Far Side comic strip..all they here is ""MAKE....$X,XXX" and ignore the rest. In this case a review with some warts on it may actually be helping the seller out as people will see its something that actually takes WORK and not just rub the lamp and tell the genie you want a million dollars.

    Jack
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by xatsmann View Post

      Hi, I'm a newbie here when it comes to IM and I just wanted to say a few things from perspective--that of a newbie who doesn't really know anyone here and has no axe to grind. I've also enjoyed this discussion and appreciate the time everyone took, even those I maybe disagreeing with, to write such good posts.

      First of all let me say this about truth and reviews of anything--products, music, books, movies, etc.., etc..--most of the truth is only a "truth" for the person reviewing it. I took the liberty of reading and reviewing Tiffany's original review and she was very careful to note this throughout her review but I felt that it was, for me anyway, unnecessary as I think it is par for the course with reviews.

      People who expect everyone to give a positive review just make it difficult for everyone to take their reviews seriously.
      If your product is that good than the criticism won't stop people from buying and using it or you can change the product to take the critique into account. Expecting all reviewers to write rave reviews is unrealistic and defeats the purpose of having reviews at all. If I want to hear how great your product is I can just read the sales copy.

      Since different reviewers have different tastes, I like to read more than one review wherever possible and I like a review who is upfront, about their tastes. For example, I've written many book and movie reviews in my day but I don't generally don't like romantic movies or books so I would say that before reviewing any romantic movie or book--that's not to say my criticism isn't going to be warranted but one should consider the source.

      Second, speaking as customer, I don't trust any review, longer than a few paragraphs that has NOTHING negative to say in their reviews, even if it is something that the marketer is up front about, i.e. "this product is will take at least 30 days to show results," or "is not recommended for newbies." No one has the same taste, opinions, whatever as everyone else so people should naturally disagree about some things, its a normal part of everyday life--only God and small children always expect to have everything to be exactly as they want it all the time (and small children, if raised well, soon find out they aren't God and won't get what they want all the time.)

      Third, I have no problem with relationships between the reviewer and the person being reviewed as it were as long as the both parties are up front about it. Will it affect the review? The reader, as he or she always is, will be the judge of that.

      Fourth, as for the stuff about refunds--if you offer a refund you should honour it as long as it conforms to your refund policy. If you won't offer a refund until at least 60 minutes or 24 hours, or whatever, after a sale than say so in the policy and I mean right up front. Also, don't scream refunds are available in a 48 point font and then bury the restrictions several screens down in 9 point font. If you make something a selling point then explain it fully with the offer and be prepared to back it up.

      Finally, I think some of the people here need to dial down the sales rhetoric. Some of the signatures are even a bit over the top and would put an insurance salesman to shame. If you're going to say stuff like "How to make ,XXX in your first hour" don't be surprised if people ignore the disclaimer about the results not being guaranteed and your mileage may vary. The public will end up like the dog in the old Far Side comic strip..all they here is ""MAKE....,XXX" and ignore the rest. In this case a review with some warts on it may actually be helping the seller out as people will see its something that actually takes WORK and not just rub the lamp and tell the genie you want a million dollars.

      Jack
      Personally, I look at my product(s) (or anyone's products), as having a bit of a "lifespan"....even long after release, I really feed off reviews and feedback from customers. Even when I think I have the perfect product, it's that feedback and reviews that really help me to address shortcomings, deficiencies, or flat-out issues with how the information is conveyed or the organizational framework that it's presented in.

      In fact, when all the reviews are extremely positive, I tend not to take a product quite as seriously. Every product can be improved upon, and if a reviewer wants to help a product creator, even if they don't tear the product to shreds, feedback regarding deficiencies that could be addressed could really prove invaluable. A produce creator "should" be happy that someone is willing to take the time and make the effort to highlight the flaws in the product.....I think that would (or "should") be welcomed by the product creator, unfortunately, I think many product creators may not like to hear that anyone has anything bad to say at all.

      There's definitely a difference between tearing apart a product out of spite, and giving real genuine constructive criticism. For one of my products, a customer had said "Well, it may have been easier to follow with a bonus that essentially summarized all the massive amounts of information, and presented in a more condensed actionable blueprint".....

      Sure, they pointed out a flaw in my product, but that gave me an awesome (invaluable) opportunity to add something that was truly valuable to customers.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by xatsmann View Post

      Hi, I'm a newbie here when it comes to IM and I just wanted to say a few things from perspective--that of a newbie who doesn't really know anyone here and has no axe to grind. I've also enjoyed this discussion and appreciate the time everyone took, even those I maybe disagreeing with, to write such good posts.

      First of all let me say this about truth and reviews of anything--products, music, books, movies, etc.., etc..--most of the truth is only a "truth" for the person reviewing it. I took the liberty of reading and reviewing Tiffany's original review and she was very careful to note this throughout her review but I felt that it was, for me anyway, unnecessary as I think it is par for the course with reviews.

      People who expect everyone to give a positive review just make it difficult for everyone to take their reviews seriously. If your product is that good than the criticism won't stop people from buying and using it or you can change the product to take the critique into account. Expecting all reviewers to write rave reviews is unrealistic and defeats the purpose of having reviews at all. If I want to hear how great your product is I can just read the sales copy.

      Since different reviewers have different tastes, I like to read more than one review wherever possible and I like a review who is upfront, about their tastes. For example, I've written many book and movie reviews in my day but I don't generally don't like romantic movies or books so I would say that before reviewing any romantic movie or book--that's not to say my criticism isn't going to be warranted but one should consider the source.

      Second, speaking as customer, I don't trust any review, longer than a few paragraphs that has NOTHING negative to say in their reviews, even if it is something that the marketer is up front about, i.e. "this product is will take at least 30 days to show results," or "is not recommended for newbies." No one has the same taste, opinions, whatever as everyone else so people should naturally disagree about some things, its a normal part of everyday life--only God and small children always expect to have everything to be exactly as they want it all the time (and small children, if raised well, soon find out they aren't God and won't get what they want all the time.)

      Third, I have no problem with relationships between the reviewer and the person being reviewed as it were as long as the both parties are up front about it. Will it affect the review? The reader, as he or she always is, will be the judge of that.

      Fourth, as for the stuff about refunds--if you offer a refund you should honour it as long as it conforms to your refund policy. If you won't offer a refund until at least 60 minutes or 24 hours, or whatever, after a sale than say so in the policy and I mean right up front. Also, don't scream refunds are available in a 48 point font and then bury the restrictions several screens down in 9 point font. If you make something a selling point then explain it fully with the offer and be prepared to back it up.

      Finally, I think some of the people here need to dial down the sales rhetoric. Some of the signatures are even a bit over the top and would put an insurance salesman to shame. If you're going to say stuff like "How to make ,XXX in your first hour" don't be surprised if people ignore the disclaimer about the results not being guaranteed and your mileage may vary. The public will end up like the dog in the old Far Side comic strip..all they here is ""MAKE....,XXX" and ignore the rest. In this case a review with some warts on it may actually be helping the seller out as people will see its something that actually takes WORK and not just rub the lamp and tell the genie you want a million dollars.

      Jack
      One of the most commented and purchased WSO, at least from what I can see right now, is about earning $1,000+/day on Facebook....I haven't purchased it, so I won't bash it....just pointing out that apparently those headlines work....

      Whether they are a bit exaggerated....or flat-out lies compared to what the majority of customers REALLY make with the "systems", is another topic all together.....

      Personally...and this is just me....I try to stay away from putting out all kinds of bizarre monetary figures or projections....of course, that could explain why WSOs I've run don't stand a chance against those....lol
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by xatsmann View Post

      Third, I have no problem with relationships between the reviewer and the person being reviewed as it were as long as the both parties are up front about it. Will it affect the review? The reader, as he or she always is, will be the judge of that.

      Jack
      This is an interesting point I've thought about a lot. Obviously there's the potential for marketers to promote a buddies product without really analyzing whether the product is a good match for their customers - so I understand where that skepticism comes from.

      Personally, I LIKE to get to know someone before I recommend their products, because I want to have confidence that they will support them well AND that they aren't going to promote a bunch of garbage on the backend.

      Someone may have a great product, but if they are going to get someone into their list and then promote a bunch of cr*p I don't want to send people that trust me to them.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by markquinn View Post

        This is an interesting point I've thought about a lot. Obviously there's the potential for marketers to promote a buddies product without really analyzing whether the product is a good match for their customers - so I understand where that skepticism comes from.

        Personally, I LIKE to get to know someone before I recommend their products, because I want to have confidence that they will support them well AND that they aren't going to promote a bunch of garbage on the backend.

        Someone may have a great product, but if they are going to get someone into their list and then promote a bunch of cr*p I don't want to send people that trust me to them.
        These marketers should value their audience much more if they aren't even considering/analyzing whether the product they promote is even a good match for their customers and their interests. If possible, people should run polls or something in order to gauge what their audience likes and would want.
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  • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
    Tiffany -- So many people are skeptical, especially online, since anyone can say anything behind the wall of their monitor. Kudos to you for being honest, and not turning into one of the "good ol boys".

    Hope you got that air conditioner fixed! I'm in Texas, too, and the summer heat is definitely upon us!
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Update about original guy who emailed me...just an fyi...

    I had replied to him saying No, I'm not one of those kind of marketers. I "get it" why you feel that way, etc. I pointed him to my previous reviews.

    He emailed me back saying basically, "True I don't know you..but you can see why I've been skeptical." He's been in IM 3 months and has already been scammed/lost so much money so now everything he sees sets off alarm bells for him.

    This is both good and bad for a newbie. It's good because it finally helps a newbie gain the caution they need in buying products. It's bad because they'll be skeptical of everyone and never get to feel comfortable moving forward.

    The guy opened up to me, I did the same...I sent him one of my paid guides for free.

    And there ya go.

    PS - My new A/C is awesome! It was 90+ here today and HUMID like you're at a water park IN the water. But I'm a balmy 70 degrees in here. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Convo with Nick IS a huge file. Too long IMO It's their literal back and forth emails.

    Kay - I thought we *did* solve it civilly? I hope so...

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