Trouble getting clients? Ready to face the truth? Let's stop this insanity!!!

73 replies
DISCLAIMER: This post is not meant to be disparaging by any means. In fact, it's one that should save you lots of trouble down the road, if you're indeed planning on building a real "offline" business. Additionally, this post is quite long. I assure you, however, if you read through it, you'll save yourself a lot of hassle, headache, and money in the end. Promise.


I can't pinpoint the exact reason for the explosion of this whole "offline" thing. It could be the allure of the big checks ($10,000 uprfront and $997/month just waiting for you to snatch it up). It could also be the conception that online is too hard or too competitive, and offline is easier because it's supposedly untapped. Who knows? At this point, who cares? This whole offline craze is completely out of control, and many people, you included, are at risk.

Let's get a few things straight right now:
  • Offering marketing services to local business owners isn't an untapped, hidden goldmine.
  • Local business owners are constantly bombarded with pleas for their money under the guise of websites, marketing services, advertising, coaching and consulting. And this means...
  • There is LOTS of competition, and unlike you, they're coming into this with valid working experience and existing relationships.
  • Local business owners aren't as helpless as you've been made to believe. At least, not the ones you should be doing business with, because these are the business owners who will pay you according to the value you provide. The other ones? Forget about it.
  • "Offline" is a real business, and what you do affects other real businesses. Think about it!
From big and outdrawn launches like "Main Street Marketing" and Russell Brunson's junk, to other products like those offered in the WSO section, these product creators want you to believe that local business owners are completely oblivious to the fact that online marketing is worthwhile, and by you helping them discover this godly revelation, the heavens will rain untold riches down upon you.

Give...Me...A...Break!

Now, there certainly are some valuable products that were created with the best of intentions. There certainly is a reason to be educating business owners on the validity and value of expanding their marketing beliefs and activities. But...

If You Can't Get a Client For Yourself, How Can You Ever Help a Well-Established Business Owner?

Sure, mindset is important in any endeavor, whether it's business or life. But, delusional self-belief is individually damaging at best, and at worst, you're contributing to sinking a business even further.

The fact of the matter is, you're still dealing with clients. Your clients need you to be accountable and effective, especially right now. Things aren't getting better for small businesses. Right now, small business owners are ravenous...they need money too!

Look at your own situation. If you're on the proverbial sinking ship, how can you ever claim to hold the keys to success for a small business that's already made money for much longer than you've been "involved in this niche?" This isn't a niche! This is life in the real world. This is real people with families, mortgages, goals and aspirations.

If you're one of the lucky ones with a client or two, I'm sure they'd be terrified to find out you're lurking Internet forums looking for advice on how to best serve their needs, after you've already collected deposits and signed contracts with them. It all sounds so easy...Do a little prospecting, send them to your free junk, wow them with a free consultation, and you're well on your way to six figures. Because, hey...these business owners are clueless, and you're not! Wow...just wow.

Listen Up...

I've worked with business owners for years. I've had extremely happy clients and extremely disappointed clients. I've tested and I've tracked and I've monitored. But, the most important thing is, I've never been clueless.

I'm seeing so many products that claim to provide you an endless torrent of qualified leads. So many, in fact, you won't be able to handle them all! Fact is...you probably can't even handle a single one!

Let's call this exactly what it is...duping business owners out of their hard earned money.

Any business owner worth their salt (i.e. Business owners who can and will pay large retainers and monthly fees) is going to engage you for results. They don't want an exploration of possibilities and miscellaneous services stacked to impress. They want to keep more of the money they currently have, and make more of it by spending less.

Ready For a True Story?

Part of my business is speaking and training. I teach workshops and seminars. I just wrapped up a multi-part series, in fact, that revolves around Internet Marketing for small businesses. There's such a unique dynamic there that most people ignore, but that's better left for another conversation.

After the workshop wrapped up, one of the participants stuck around. He wanted answers. He opened up to me and revealed that my course was one of three in total that he has paid for, attended faithfully, and expected results from.

"This is the most value I've received in a long time, and I think you for that. But...I need some help," he said with a genuine dash of immediacy in his voice.

This individual is a Real Estate Broker (not an agent) who has been in operation for 25+ years now. His business is a consistent high six-figure earner. He's never done any of the "fancy pants marketing" that is being pushed these days. His websites are simple...really simple. But they get him results. He uses Adwords, and it's also created results.

Here's where the trouble comes. The leads he acquired through Adwords accounted for, by his estimations, 95% of his business over the last 24 months. I was shocked, and he was worried...really worried. He said he was looking into Social Media as a way to diversify his lead stream.

"I waited too long to take action on this, and I practically woke up in a cold sweat one night realizing my errors," he explained to me. "That's why I signed up for your workshop, and these other ones. And frankly, the other two were complete bull#*!%. I hate bull#*!%."

Guess what? After a little probing, I realized that these other two courses were being taught by individuals who had no credibility to teach them. By the way, my course was $1,299 for 10 hours of total training. Theirs were completely free.

Here's the kicker...they're people who jumped onto this "offline" bandwagon! How do I know? One of them uses a PLR product that I've seen being given away on this forum. The other? The copy on his website completely echoes the benefit statements and service offerings I see being pushed in certain threads. At prices I've seen being recommended all over the place.

He had another confession to make.

"I was so worried about my websites because they don't look like these newer ones. I was told that my technology would prevent me from showing up in the search engines. This other guy told me that he could get me more leads than I could handle with his Internet Marketing campaign, so I talked to him. After a couple meetings with him, I gotta admit...I was impressed. He showed me this map of all this stuff that could send me targeted traffic. So, I asked him some more specific questions. And suddenly, I started to realize he was full of sh&!. I could tell he knew nothing about how a real business works because he couldn't answer my questions, but only spout off what seemed like sound bites. Then, I really knew he was full of #^@! when I asked him how much, and his proposal was for $15,000 upfront and $1,997 a month. Obviously I didn't accept it. The price wasn't the issue, but his credibility was. So...what can you do for me?"

You see, my student has been in business for a quarter of a century. He operates a six-figure business. This is, in the real world, the only type of business that can and would afford to pay you big money for results...the type of money that these "offline" product creators tell you is completely achievable. The fact is, a six-figure business owner has seen it all. They're not clueless about marketing like you're being led to believe. They didn't stumble upon a successful and profitable business by chance.

So, How Do I Build a Profitable "Offline" Business?

If you'll notice, many of the products being offered tell you that you don't need to cold call, you don't have to speak publicly, and you don't even need to meet with the business owner if you don't want to. All I have to say to that is...baloney!

Communication is a basic and necessary business skill. There's a reason you discovered the "offline niche" in an Internet Marketing message board. You were likely averse to the idea of being out and about, making money the "traditional way."

Here's a cold, hard fact... Credibility is only established through relationships. Relationships are only established through communication. Good communication will make you money. Period, end of story, goodbye and good night.

If you haven't figured it out by now, you should be well on your way. Please, for the sake of all that is good with small business, don't sell them your marketing services if you're not capable of producing your own leads and clients. You're not in a position to help any business owner, let alone yourself. You're not credible, and at some point in time, your current or prospective clients will realize this. And, your business is gone.

My business pays me, and it pays me well. I have systems and processes in place that have only been developed through years of toil and discomfort. I have credibility because I took the time, effort, attention, and energy to develop it...over time...with care. Now, am I saying there's no way to shorten the cycle? No. You can, in fact, and you should. But don't jump into "offline" because you just picked up the latest product that promises to reveal all the secrets to you. You're just setting yourself up for a disappointing fall.

END OF RANT
#business #clients #face #insanity #local #marketing #offline #ready #stop #trouble #truth
  • Profile picture of the author cbreceipt
    Yes, I completely agree. Reminds me of a recent product launch (Main Street Marketing Machine). Everyone was jumping in thinking it's the next big thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Warriors don't be sacred off by these types of scarey posts. 99% of the OP is wrong. If you want to work hard and do offline just do it.

    George Wright. P.S. I really mean no disrespect to the OP, but these guilttrip "Everyone else but me is to dumb to sell offline" are getting tiresome.

    George Wright
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    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
      Banned
      I would agree for the most part. My dad and father in law own a small business and I used to do small business lending at a bank.

      Offline business owners aren't idiots, they worked hard to build their business and they get solicited (in person, mail, and on the phone) every day.

      The idea that you can simply walk in and pitch some website service is ridiculous. Like anything else, you need to work hard for referrals or to prove your value.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ilya Feynberg
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      Warriors don't be sacred off by these types of scarey posts. 99% of the OP is wrong. If you want to work hard and do offline just do it.

      George Wright. P.S. I really mean no disrespect to the OP, but these guilttrip "Everyone else but me is to dumb to sell offline" are getting tiresome.

      George Wright
      George, I agree with you as well here. There are strong points made in the point that if listened to properly can yield I think some serious insight. I do see your point as well, and agree...but both have their place...in fact they are in the same place when formatted properly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
    George,

    I appreciate the response, but...

    Never did I say anyone was too dumb for anything. It's a horrible misrepresentation of the message.

    This isn't meant to scare anyone. This is meant to protect the validity of this profession from people who have no right to sell the services they're selling, at the price they're selling them for.

    Think about this logically...if you don't know how to pick up your own clients, how can you ever tell a business owner you're going to do just that for them?

    "Just go do it" is a fine and dandy sentiment, and while it may be pleasing to one's ears, it does nothing but get you in trouble when you're dealing with a real business.
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    • Profile picture of the author ozduc
      Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

      This isn't meant to scare anyone. This is meant to protect the validity of this profession from people who have no right to sell the services they're selling, at the price they're selling them for.
      While I do agree with some points in your post, I have to ask who appointed you as the protector of this profession and the person to decide who and who does not have the right to offer these services at what ever fee they choose?

      The bottom line is people in business have to make their own decision based on their own due diligence. If someone gets taken by someone claiming to be able to get them on the 1st page of google for $xxxx well so be it. It is not going to change the way the business world works by you ranting about the con artists out there. They are there in every business. If it wasn't for all the scammers you may have never picked up the client you referred to in the op. Just do your thing and move on, unless of course you have a WSO coming soon.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ozduc View Post

        While I do agree with some points in your post, I have to ask who appointed you as the protector of this profession and the person to decide who and who does not have the right to offer these services at what ever fee they choose?

        The bottom line is people in business have to make their own decision based on their own due diligence. If someone gets taken by someone claiming to be able to get them on the 1st page of google for well so be it. It is not going to change the way the business world works by you ranting about the con artists out there. They are there in every business. If it wasn't for all the scammers you may have never picked up the client you referred to in the op. Just do your thing and move on, unless of course you have a WSO coming soon.
        Here's an idea.

        Maybe we should ALL shut our mouths about all the con men out there.

        Maybe we should just let them run rampant and take over the world.

        I mean, what's the point of people saying anything to warn anybody
        about anything?

        But maybe...just maybe...one person with half a conscience will read
        what the OP said and think to himself, "Maybe I shouldn't be doing this
        because I'm really not qualified and it's not fair to the business owner I'll
        be taking advantage of."

        Call me crazy, but I think we need more warnings about sleazy things.

        People aren't born bad.

        They become that way because they're not taught the difference between
        right and wrong.
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        • Profile picture of the author ozduc
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Here's an idea.

          Maybe we should ALL shut our mouths about all the con men out there.
          Not at all.

          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          But maybe...just maybe...one person with half a conscience will read
          what the OP said and think to himself, "Maybe I shouldn't be doing this
          because I'm really not qualified and it's not fair to the business owner I'll
          be taking advantage of."
          Anyone with half a conscience that has bought one of these products will I am sure already be aware of their expertise and certainly want to improve and learn the business so they can get qualified before taking on more than they can handle, so as to be fair to the business owner.
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        • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
          I have been selling services to offline businesses since graduating in 1992 and when I got started I had absolutely no experience whatsoever in helping businesses land clients.

          But what I did have was enthusiasm and a determination to make good on my promises to the business owners. Because of this I got the job done and the experience followed thereafter.

          A lot of time business owners will hire you because you're enthused over something that they simply are not but wish they were.

          So screw experience and know how, you give me someone hungry as hell and ready to prove themselves to the world and I'll hire that person every single time hands down.

          It doesn't take an expert to help grow a business it takes someone with some fire in his or belly to go out and make it happen.

          Now if you're not the sort to have that sort of determination and you lack the experience you better skip going after offline business owners altogether because they are going to sense that in you and they'll chomp you up and spit you out in pieces.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by ozduc View Post

        While I do agree with some points in your post, I have to ask who appointed you as the protector of this profession and the person to decide who and who does not have the right to offer these services at what ever fee they choose?
        It's a marketing forum and he's someone with experience and an opinion - getting frustrated seeing people fed mis-information and venting in a way you hope will get someone to think twice before being fooled doesn't classify as 'being the protector of the profession'.

        Why do people feel the need to criticise people who post their thoughts with the intent of helping others?

        Telling him to shut up and get on with his own business helps who?

        This is a discussion forum after all.

        If you don't think his opinion is useful - why don't you follow your own advice? rather than criticise him for caring enough to bother.
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        • Profile picture of the author ozduc
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          venting in a way you hope will get someone to think twice before being fooled doesn't classify as 'being the protector of the profession'.
          I was just quoting his exact words.

          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Why do people feel the need to criticise people who post their thoughts with the intent of helping others?
          I do not see where I was criticizing him. In fact I said I agree with some of the points in his OP although after reading the original post again I am still trying to find where all the help is. There is a lot of what you shouldn't be doing but not a lot of what you should. That is probably coming in the wso.
          However in a subsequent post he painted himself as the protector of the profession and making blanket statements like
          "people who have no right to sell the services they're selling, at the price they're selling them for."

          There are people at all levels of expertise in every profession and I can not see how someone with more experience than someone else in a particular subject has the right to stipulate who should and should not be allowed to operate in that profession, unless there are some state or federal laws stipulating the level of expertise or license required.
          There will be some who buy these WSO's or courses and learn from them and go out and get clients and do well and then there are those that will fail. It is the nature of business. If some of the business who choose to work with these people get one or two extra customers it may be money well spent. Some will lose money. My point is that in the end it is up to the business owner to decide if they want to work with these people or not.
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        • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
          I think the Offline Business is booming, at least here in San Diego. I have no problems finding clients and am actually to a point of cherry picking who I want to work with. It did require building a brand for myself and having a full arsenal of Internet Marketing to offer clients.
          Each business mixer I go to (2 or 3 per week sometimes) I see more businesses approaching me and sharing that they need to get more web traffic and old methods of PR including direct mail aren't working anymore.
          I just added Internet Based Sales Funnels and Google Map packages to the mix as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
      Kelly,

      Definitely the consulting.

      I like how speaking the truth gets people amped up in here.

      The very simple reason for running the WSO was to train my new staff writers with web content projects, and cover my costs for that training. Simple concept to understand, right?

      You wouldn't be taking issue with this post because you offer Offline products, right?

      Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

      Credibility.

      Which is more profitable for you? Running courses for $1299 a seat plus whatever consulting you "do" using the knowledge the rest of us "insane dupers" don't have (paraphrasing), or selling articles for $5.08 each?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
        Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

        Kelly,

        Definitely the consulting.

        I like how speaking the truth gets people amped up in here.

        The very simple reason for running the WSO was to train my new staff writers with web content projects, and cover my costs for that training. Simple concept to understand, right?

        You wouldn't be taking issue with this post because you offer Offline products, right?
        You haven't seen my offline products and likely haven't even seen the sales pages. I don't take issue with "this post" nor am I afraid that you're speaking to me.

        You're making a blanket statement about everyone who sells offline products, and that's what I take issue with.

        I talk with offline prospects and clients all the time. Most have a great handle on their business. Most could also see HUGE increases with just a little effort.

        Even in your example, that guy was doing six-figures using one promotion method. Would it be wrong to suggest he could increase his business by doing more? Would it be duping him to suggest that he add another marketing method to his business?

        Yes, some business owners are harangued by SEO-shysters. And yes, some people get into the consulting business before they are experts across the board. But calling someone who's offering a single service a "duper" and saying it's "insanity" is nothing more than grandstanding.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

      Credibility.

      Which is more profitable for you? Running courses for $1299 a seat plus whatever consulting you "do" using the knowledge the rest of us "insane dupers" don't have (paraphrasing), or selling articles for $5.08 each?
      Ouch - cheap shot dude.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ilya Feynberg
    Dude, I LOVE this post. I want the first part especially to be shoved down the offline "guru's" throats.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hi,

    I can understand your points, but George is also right.

    I've been helping offline businesses with IM for about 8 years now and it is my experience that much of your OP is on the money.

    Many business owners do know about marketing and have spent a lot more time marketing their business than many of the new mass of people thinking they know better.

    Even the business owners who know nothing about the internet DO know about marketing their business - that's why they're in business.

    If you don't know your craft you can ruin their business.

    I also agree about relationships and meeting people.

    I've never done any cold calling for web marketing consulting work as I value relationships and I've done a good enough job for people that they like to tell others to come and speak to me.

    I also have a core skillset in running workshops and speaking, so that's also why I get business. There are web designers in my area that can create great sites but are too shy to speak to groups so I do that for them and pass them the site creation business.

    Anyone starting out that can't speak to groups and wants to get their business by sending out postcards and cold-calling people is likely to find it hard going (but not impossible).

    Then there's what you can do once you get clients. Many people have been led to believe that baffling business owners with IM BS and sounding clever is enough to get them salivating for your services - not usually the case, especially if you can't back it up.

    You may think that a simple wordpress site is a 30 minute job and it may well be when you set up a blog for yourself, but you'd better be able to do a good job when someones business is on the line.
    The sites don't need to be flashy but you do need to know what works as far as getting customers to take action is concerned.

    Just because the business owner might think it looks nice and you can blame them if it doesn't get more business - doesn't mean you shouldn't do your homework and learn what 'really' works and will work for them.

    There's no doubt that you can make quick money - but it's also easy to fall on your face and under deliver and kill your credibility - which ultimately will kill your business.

    So - I say yes go for it, but don't think it's as simple as BSing a few business owners that google rankings will change their business.

    Andy
    p.s thanks for having your rant - although I don't completely agree with you, I do think it's important that people get alternative experiences from people in this niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Cool - I agree with Kelly too - this is a nice change

    There are people in my area who only offer video landing pages and do a decent job helping businesses that already have websites.

    You don't have to try and be everything to everyone - just be able to backup what you are doing and don't kid yourself (or anyone) else about what that is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
    Kelly,

    Point taken, but I believe it's completely off base. And yes, I have seen your sales pages. You didn't see mine, regarding the article service.

    Listen, I'm not making any blanket statement about everyone who sells offline products. Read the post. I'm firing bullets specifically at those who sell offline products saying that it's easy, business owners are clueless, and you don't even need to meet them to make money.

    No, it's not wrong to suggest he could increase his business by doing more. In fact, that's exactly what I did. In the workshop, and for free in our conversation after the fact. Like I said in the post...business owners DO need to rethink their marketing, and take on what makes sense. Most of the crap being sold doesn't make sense. Plain and simple.

    Additionally, I'm not saying anyone is a "duper" for offering a service. They're a "duper" if they offer a service to bring a business more customers when they are clueless on the marketing it takes to get their own clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
      Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

      Additionally, I'm not saying anyone is a "duper" for offering a service. They're a "duper" if they offer a service to bring a business more customers when they are clueless on the marketing it takes to get their own clients.
      Flawed logic.

      He might be excellent at that service, yet that service might not be effective at attracting offline clients.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
        I can see how you feel that way.

        However, if the service one is offering is a way to get more customers, which is what we're talking about here, then lacking that fundamental knowledge for oneself should be a concern for any client taken on.

        Getting leads isn't hard. Turning leads into clients isn't hard. Pleasing clients is hard.

        Maybe my post wasn't clear enough, as it was indeed a rant, but the bottom line is...I'm 100% sick of meeting with prospective clients who have lost money and time dealing with providers who don't provide. It's killing businesses. Many of these offline launches and products are contributing to that. Big time.

        Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

        Flawed logic.

        He might be excellent at that service, yet that service might not be effective at attracting offline clients.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
        Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

        I guess I'm just confused because I'm reading your post and seeing all the places you talk about how reputable you are and how you know what you're doing, can please clients, etc., but then you also say that the mass of offliners entering and screwing up is "killing business".

        This seems strange to me. You say anyone having a hard time finding clients is incapable, but then you say that you yourself are having a harder time finding clients due to a shift in the industry.

        So are you incapable? Shouldn't your skills and reputation mean that you can find clients without hassle no matter what? In which case, why should you care what other offliners are doing?

        Or is it possible that the entire industry is just tightening. ANd if you, an experience, capable, reputable provider is having a harder time finding clients, then why WOULDNT someone just entering have a VERY hard time finding clients? Why does that automatically make them incapable? Some of them certainly are. But trouble finding clients, especially for a start up, does NOT equal incompetence.

        I guess your whole post just reads to me like a big self-pat on the back. "I can do this and you can't so stop."

        Personally, if it was me, and I knew I was THAT good, I'd just sit back and let all the newbies flounder while I went on with business as usual.
        No, I think you may have misread. Nowhere did I say that the surge of these new offliners is killing business for me, I said it's killing businesses. Meaning, those businesses that pay for these services to no avail.

        And, no...I won't "just sit back and let all the newbies flounder" so I can go on with business as usual. It's irritating to hear stories on an almost daily basis about some other new absurd claim being spouted about. It's damaging to businesses who don't know otherwise and buy based solely on these claims.

        Look at all of these offline success threads.

        The majority of them read like this:
        "I just closed a client for $x,xxx plus $xxx a month! Now, what do I actually do?"

        That, my friends, is a damn shame. No way around it.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Why didn't someone tell me these things before I foolishly made lots of money doing IM for offline businesses? Then, I would have wisely given up and made no money on it.

    Look, in most cases one can show business owners what is missing on their sites or offer *trackable* internet marketing strategies.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I'm getting ready to launch a heavy hitter, B2B "thing" for the "offline market" who wants to step up their game to the big leagues.

    That way the kids who want to go pound on coffee shop doors and talk down to the owner can all fight over the scraps, while the real players move up.

    I've worked with over 5000 businesses over the past 20 years, including Chrysler, Procter & Gamble, Reynolds & Reynolds, Champion Window, and many mid-market companies as well. All the rhetoric about who is what in offline this or that stops right at the line where those who talk about it collide with those who have done it as high as the Fortune 100 level for the past 20 years.

    ToolsForIM is correct in that business owners are neither stupid, nor desperate, nor interested in your tactical level geek speak. There's a whole bunch of people who are rushing out into the market, dreaming of selling internet marketing to the small business market, and who will be sorely disappointed.

    This is web design 1.0 coming full circle. When the market was flooded with kids armed with copies of Frontpage, cranking out template websites that looked just like the other stock template websites, the market collapsed. Only the real players who understood the game survived.

    This is happening again, and the next big wave isn't SEO for local business. It's not getting your website to the first page of Google. That hit "main street" in the internet marketing business 2-3 years ago. Those selling shovels to the miners know exactly what's up in this business.

    There is another marketing wave getting ready to hit in hardcore force over the next 24-36 months though.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I'm getting ready to launch a heavy hitter, B2B "thing" for the "offline market" who wants to step up their game to the big leagues.

      That way the kids who want to go pound on coffee shop doors and talk down to the owner can all fight over the scraps, while the real players move up.

      I've worked with over 5000 businesses over the past 20 years, including Chrysler, Procter & Gamble, Reynolds & Reynolds, Champion Window, and many mid-market companies as well. All the rhetoric about who is what in offline this or that stops right at the line where those who talk about it collide with those who have done it as high as the Fortune 100 level for the past 20 years.

      ToolsForIM is correct in that business owners are neither stupid, nor desperate, nor interested in your tactical level geek speak. There's a whole bunch of people who are rushing out into the market, dreaming of selling internet marketing to the small business market, and who will be sorely disappointed.

      This is web design 1.0 coming full circle. When the market was flooded with kids armed with copies of Frontpage, cranking out template websites that looked just like the other stock template websites, the market collapsed. Only the real players who understood the game survived.

      This is happening again, and the next big wave isn't SEO for local business. It's not getting your website to the first page of Google. That hit "main street" in the internet marketing business 2-3 years ago. Those selling shovels to the miners know exactly what's up in this business.

      There is another marketing wave getting ready to hit in hardcore force over the next 24-36 months though.


      There's a HUGE difference between talking about the direction the market is moving and calling those who are doing this consulting piecemeal "clueless" "dupers."

      He's saying that those who don't have deep knowledge don't have any business doing this consulting.

      You're saying that those who don't have the deep knowledge had better get it.

      I agree with you, not him.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


      There is another marketing wave getting ready to hit in hardcore force over the next 24-36 months though.

      If the West Coast Mafia have anything to do with it - it'll be all about mobile / texting based marketing.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        If the West Coast Mafia have anything to do with it - it'll be all about mobile / texting based marketing.

        For B2C, I think mobile is going to get bigger. The West Coast guys want to sell more shovels, so yeah, I would say fueling the army of small business annoyances to get paid for tools would be a good bet for those guys. But that's a microscopic slice of the bigger world of marketing.

        Major consumer brand companies like P&G will do their own thing - if you're not already in their drawer, you're not getting there.

        But, B2B is a different ball game, a massive one. B2B is going to be a major growth market for internet marketing - but it's not going to be anything like the stuff that gets bantered about on affiliate marketing forums - mostly because the marketing and sales processes are much longer, and even in small companies can involve 8-10 people. An emotional sales letter pitch for a one-call close is a figment of imagination.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    I can see what the OP is talking about, but I can also see what Kelly is referencing when he states the "stereotyping" tone of the post.

    If I understand correctly (the OP's post) his message is basically that "offline consultants" hyping up their ability to fill a business with new customers and leads (as if they were raindrops falling from the sky in a storm) is borderline shady IF they:

    A) have no proven track record for delivering results
    B) are charging large sums of money for something they have no "real clue" how to do

    So those going out and purchasing products that tell them how to fill a business with "guaranteed leads" (i.e. MSMM) are setting "consultants" up for failure IF they can't deliver on expectations...

    Is this correct?

    If so, then I'd say that's pretty accurate...HOWEVER lead generation is also NOT the "end all - be all" of increasing sales and profits for a business...customer retention, follow-up, tracking systems for identifying wasteful spending, a focused marketing GOAL and expected results etc. are also key elements that a LOT of business DO lack...and CAN be helped with...

    I don't think there's a debate going on in this thread, I think the end story is:
    Make sure you know what you are talking about first before you start charging business owners, otherwise you are not only charging them for things you have no clue about, but also putting their business (and yourself) at a large financial risk.
    Then again...I could be completely missing the point of this thread entirely, lol

    ~Dexx
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    • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
      Originally Posted by Dexx View Post

      I can see what the OP is talking about, but I can also see what Kelly is referencing when he states the "stereotyping" tone of the post.

      If I understand correctly (the OP's post) his message is basically that "offline consultants" hyping up their ability to fill a business with new customers and leads (as if they were raindrops falling from the sky in a storm) is borderline shady IF they:

      A) have no proven track record for delivering results
      B) are charging large sums of money for something they have no "real clue" how to do

      So those going out and purchasing products that tell them how to fill a business with "guaranteed leads" (i.e. MSMM) are setting "consultants" up for failure IF they can't deliver on expectations...

      Is this correct?

      If so, then I'd say that's pretty accurate...HOWEVER lead generation is also NOT the "end all - be all" of increasing sales and profits for a business...customer retention, follow-up, tracking systems for identifying wasteful spending, a focused marketing GOAL and expected results etc. are also key elements that a LOT of business DO lack...and CAN be helped with...

      I don't think there's a debate going on in this thread, I think the end story is:
      Make sure you know what you are talking about first before you start charging business owners, otherwise you are not only charging them for things you have no clue about, but also putting their business (and yourself) at a large financial risk.
      Then again...I could be completely missing the point of this thread entirely, lol

      ~Dexx
      You're 100% correct. Thanks for clarifying on my behalf.

      Listen, this was not a "toot my own horn" post...far from it. I've worked hard to build my business to provide for my family and my clients. That's it. Those are the only two groups of people I need to impress. Let's get that clear right now, for all of you thinking this is some sort of disguised personal award show.

      I knew this post would polarize...it was meant to. What I didn't expect was the ire it would draw.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

        I knew this post would polarize...it was meant to. What I didn't expect was the ire it would draw.
        Don't worry about it - it happens a lot. Usually from people who already have an attitude of insecurity and like to feel like victims. As soon as someone has the balls to say something and stand behind it they get attacked for the 'self righteous', 'condesending', 'holier-than-though' attitude which the insecure haters create.

        Don't take it personally - some people can see that stuff in anyone.

        Your OP did have a tinge of critical negativity in it - but it's our choice to focus on that or not..
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        • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
          Appreciate the words, Andy.

          You're right, there was a real tinge of negativity in my post. My frustration mounted to a point where it was almost out of control. Not an excuse, but an explanation of thinking.

          I try not to take personal offense, but it's hard when people feel attacked who shouldn't.

          If anything, the post was meant to protect potential offliners from looking like fools to business owners who know better.

          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Don't worry about it - it happens a lot. Usually from people who already have an attitude of insecurity and like to feel like victims. As soon as someone has the balls to say something and stand behind it they get attacked for the 'self righteous', 'condesending', 'holier-than-though' attitude which the insecure haters create.

          Don't take it personally - some people can see that stuff in anyone.

          Your OP did have a tinge of critical negativity in it - but it's our choice to focus on that or not..
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          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
            Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

            Appreciate the words, Andy.

            You're right, there was a real tinge of negativity in my post. <snip>
            Don't sweat it. It's good to rock the boat sometimes.
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      • Profile picture of the author jdenc
        Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

        You're 100% correct. Thanks for clarifying on my behalf.

        Listen, this was not a "toot my own horn" post...far from it. I've worked hard to build my business to provide for my family and my clients. That's it. Those are the only two groups of people I need to impress. Let's get that clear right now, for all of you thinking this is some sort of disguised personal award show.

        I knew this post would polarize...it was meant to. What I didn't expect was the ire it would draw.
        Of course it attracted ire you are going to hurt sales.

        I have been consulting offline since 1987. I agree with a lot of your post. I see the same thing. "Oh if you just have this WSO you are golden offline helping all these clueless business owners" or "if you just have my special goodie you'll close the big sale". I just laugh and laugh. Then I get another laugh when we see pitchmen showing up here wondering how they are going to do what they just sold. What a waste.

        And btw it doesn't work like that any more than online does. Online you have to work hard and the big guys have developed long term relationships with buyers. Offline you have to develop relationships. You have to be able to deliver. If you can't you hurt those of us that can by tarring us with your ineptitude and downright dishonesty when we go in behind you. Now we are all inept frauds until we prove different. Thanks.

        I don't think this post was aimed at those who can deliver and have the experience. I think it was aimed at those who don't have a clue and who think buying a WSO makes them a reasonable choice for some guy to spend thousands on. And to some degree the people who sell the pie in the sky WSOs that get them to think it does make them a reasonable choice.

        And if you think any of this applies to you and you are mad about it, maybe you need to take a look at how you do your business. Because I didn't point a finger at anyone. Neither did the OP as far as I can tell.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hey Dexx,

    I think you've got the idea

    This is one of those subjects that can easily turn into hypothetical scenario debates and semantic tennis with people arguing the meanings and different perspectives of the words being used rather than the real issue here.

    This (of course) another subject that has many shades of colour and isn't a black or white thing.

    I think the intention of the OP was a positive one - to stop people getting fooled into thinking that a little IM knowledge has more value than the ability to apply it and get good results.

    I believe he was just trying to give people a heads-up that some of the talk in the IM niche has been driven by people selling information, and therefore given hyped up / false perceived value, hence the usual hyped "make $10k in a weekend" sort of marketing/sales messages sucking in people that have failed with other IM strategies.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I also believe that the negative/slightly aggressive tone was probably born out of frustration of seeing this going on and people being given false hope about the reality of things.

    It's good that people care enough to start such threads.

    If we just focus on pulling out the most useful and positive elements of this - maybe some people will be saved a bad experience.

    No need to jump on the elements that can be criticised just for the sake of it.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    That's the beauty of IM though - you get to choose your model and what level you operate it.

    I prefer to work with small businesses because you can change someone's life by increasing their small business's revenue by a decent amount.

    You can make more money working with bigger clients and even make them more money - but it's a lot harder to change their world. They have a board and shareholders to answer to and tend to work in a less personal way. That's good for some people and not what some want.

    It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    This thread reminds of something I saw a while ago:

    Internet marketing and the gold rush mentality | Internet Marketing Strategy: Conversation Marketing

    ************************************************

    Internet marketing and the gold rush mentality

    I'm a huge fan of the now-defunct HBO series Deadwood. It offers a pretty good picture of the gold rush mentality then, and a great comparison to the internet marketing gold rush mentality we've got now.
    During any gold rush, 6 things happen:


    1. Someone finds gold.
    2. Everyone suddenly believes that which was previously unreachable (unbelievable wealth) is now attainable.
    3. Everyone rushes for the shiny stuff, without learning what's really involved.
    4. Except for a few people, who aspire to become either Al Swearengen or Seth Bullock (both real people, by the way).
    5. The Al Swearengens make a lot of money, fast, by ripping off one hapless prospector after another. Eventually they die of a massive head wound (historical fact).
    6. The Seth Bullocks make money slowly but steadily, by selling people the tools they need. They become friends with people like Teddy Roosevelt. They die at 70 of horrible wasting diseases. Scratch that last. No connection. Although again, historical fact.

    You can pretty much apply this to any 'gold' rush, no matter what the 'gold' is. And now, 10-15 years after 'internet' became a common term, we still have that gold rush mentality.

    The internet looks like a gold mine

    To most people, the internet looks like a freaking gold mine. Set up a web site and money just starts pouring in - it'll literally fall out of your computer. No effort required.

    And we all think we know someone who struck gold: The friend of a friend who's independently wealthy after she sold her blog about chia pets; the guy who made a million bucks because he owned "car.com"; your cousin's wife's sister who made $10 million selling cialis from her web site.

    That which was unattainable is now within reach

    Everyone starts to think: Thanks to the internet, I can finally make my millions! Businesses used to have to pay lots of money to place ads in magazines. They had to do silly stuff like have plans and do marketing and write decent copy! But now, I can just put up a web site!

    We all rush towards it

    So we all run out, buy a copy of FrontPage or Expression Web or whatever the latest web building 'system' is. Then we dive in.
    A month later, reality starts to set in. Holy crap, this is hard work. What do I do now?

    Enter the Al's and Seth's

    Now everyone has a choice: They can go over to Seth Bullock's hardware store and buy a solid shovel, a good pickaxe and some gloves. Then they can learn how to look for gold, how to mine it, and how to make money doing it. Step by step. It's hard work, it's risky, and it will cost money. No gold lying on the ground, sorry. In internet marketing, this is the equivalent of either learning internet marketing yourself (count on 5 years) or hiring someone who already knows how to do it.

    Or, they can go over to Al Swearengen's place. It looks like a hell of a lot more fun. There's booze, naughty-looking ladies, music playing, and good old Al will help you out because he likes you. He knows where there's a huge gold deposit, right over there. In internet marketing, this is the equivalent of hiring someone who guarantees a top 10 result within 30 days, or has a system they call the Google Beater, or something similar. They generally have a lot of big, red letters on their web site.

    Internet marketing: The gold rush that ain't

    Most folks hed over to Al's place, by the way. The SuperNetastic marketing program only costs $300, so why not try it? Beats reading a lot or spending $20,000 on marketing.
    Here's the thing, guys: The internet has lowered the barrier to entry for businesses.

    The internet has not lowered the requirements for success.

    Get it? Yeah, launching a web site is a lot cheaper than buying space in a magazine. But simply building the site won't get customers to your door, or establish you as a leader in your industry. Nor will it get you search rankings.

    You still have to do the marketing.
    You have to write. Test. Research. Network.
    You have to pan for gold. For a long time.

    There are exceptions, of course. There are always exceptions. For every Shoemoney there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, who fell flat on their faces.

    I'm not saying 'give up'

    By all means, give it a shot. Just think it through, first. Understand that you're not going to launch a web site one day and wake up rich the next. You need to understand SEO, PPC, social media, copywriting, design, analytics and basic marketing principles. If you don't, then you need to find those who do.

    The good news: If you keep at it, work with the right people and learn as you go, you've got far better odds of success than the average prospector did.

    ************************************************

    Now replace "internet" with "business consulting/marketing" and voila! =)

    Cheers,

    ~Dexx
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Business is business, regardless of whether it's online or offline.

      You can't sell xyz to company ABC if company ABC doesn't want it. I don't
      care how good a pitchman you are.

      And yes, there is a big difference between pitching Chrysler and pitching
      a ma and pa operation only in that with a large corporation, the person
      you're pitching probably has a hell of a lot more pressure to land the right
      service than Joe's Pizza. So yes, to get those kind of clients, you have to
      be damn good at what you do AND have to be one hell of a salesman to
      close the deal.

      So what?

      There is more to offline life than Chrysler, GE, AT&T or whoever.

      There are plenty of small businesses that IF you have a good presentation
      and can show them HOW you can help them and do it at a reasonable
      price, you can easily get their business.

      You don't have to conquer Everest to succeed offline.

      Be honest

      Know your business

      Learn how to deal with people one on one

      Is it easy?

      It's no easier or harder than being successful online.

      Refer back to line 1 of this post for the reason why.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Be honest

        Know your business

        Learn how to deal with people one on one
        Quoted for absolute truth.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattrix329
    I've been an internet marketer for about 2 years now. I've sweated and toiled over my own business for so long that in all honesty I HATE when other marketers take advantage of both online and offline business owners. So i can understand what the OP is saying. I do kind of want to add my own opinion to this mess...

    I guess you could say that I'm one of those "dupers" you're talking about in the original post. However, I wasn't attracted by the "sales pages" of these offline PLR products out there. I decided to start my business because I felt that internet marketing can often be a lonely business. Especially affiliate/article/adsense marketing if you know what i mean. Offline consulting allows me to use what i've learned over those two years (i realize that it isn't much but hey i'm young) and help others with it. There can be no greater fulfillment than knowing that, at the end of the day, you helped someone achieve their goals.

    However, i believe that you harm your reputation much more than help it by providing such a "personal" rant on a public forum.

    Sure I may not have credibility yet. I only have one client. I'm also writing and publishing a book about the hardships of internet marketing... but hey what do i know right?

    Sure, i may have learned much of what i know of the "consulting" part thanks to warriors like Kelly Verge and Maria Gudelis. I only use them to get ideas for my own business btw.

    Do i charge 20,000 a package? Sure. Well, more like 15,000 for 3 months. But do i offer value for their purchase? Yes. Around 60,000 back links, 300 articles, 12 videos, 6 press releases, 240 UAW articles syndicated to that network, and A LOT more over a period of 3 months.


    What i'm trying to say is that not all of this new wave of Offline consultants are here to "dupe" people out of their money. They don't all base their products off PLR items bought off the warrior forums. By the way, a lot of those products are really awesome . Well... a couple were. Several were only worth the $4 or $5 i paid for.. IF THAT. So i can see why you're upset by the influx of crap out there about your profession.

    Honestly, I was attracted to the offline market not because of the big checks but because of the fulfillment offline consulting offers. To blatantly stereotype (myself and) other warriors is not only a sign of disrespect to the forums and its users but also to your profession. Let the newbies, like me, flounder around. It will only make you look that much more attractive in the long run. But please realize that not all of the newbies are out here just to get a quick buck.

    Because i'm from hawaii, it's practically impossible to find people who are willing to mentor others on running an offline consulting firm. Believe me, i've been trying for about a year now. So unfortunately, i'm stuck with what i can find on the warrior forums and google
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by mattrix329 View Post

      <snip>

      Sure I may not have credibility yet.
      <snip>
      It's simple. If your IM services produce results, that's what someone trying to make money whilst preserving their reputation -- ie a business owner -- cares about. They've already been duped by high falutin' marketers with fancy degrees who cost a bundle but didn't deliver.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        It's simple. If your IM services produce results, that's what someone trying to make money whilst preserving their reputation -- ie a business owner -- cares about. They've already been duped by high falutin' marketers with fancy degrees who cost a bundle but didn't deliver.
        That's not true in my experience - I've met a lot of business owners who don't care what you say you can do - they'd rather work with someone they know and trust than a stranger promising the earth.

        There are people who have seen so many "get you number 1 on google" ads that they will buy the offer with the best promises, but my experience is that they're in the minority as most business owners have been let down enough to value relationships over promises.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tools For IM
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          That's not true in my experience - I've met a lot of business owners who don't care what you say you can do - they'd rather work with someone they know and trust than a stranger promising the earth.

          There are people who have seen so many "get you number 1 on google" ads that they will buy the offer with the best promises, but my experience is that they're in the minority as most business owners have been let down enough to value relationships over promises.
          This is reality, people.

          Relationships are key, and you can't build them if you're unwilling to get out there.

          I don't dissuade anyone from trying anything. I've had my failures in life, but I tried, and I'm glad I did. I don't mind people discovering a business that may fit them, and pursuing that.

          I loathe people using underhanded marketing tactics, shady advice, and outright lies to pad their own pockets. Pure and simple.
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          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
            Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

            <snip>
            I loathe people using underhanded marketing tactics, shady advice, and outright lies to pad their own pockets. Pure and simple.
            I hate banks, too.
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          That's not true in my experience - I've met a lot of business owners who don't care what you say you can do<snip>.
          Of course. As I said, produce results. As in "do" not say.
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

            Of course. As I said, produce results. As in "do" not say.
            I think you can swing some people your way if you show them results for 'their' business.

            Some people are happy just to see results you got for someone else's business, but many don't put a lot of weight on that (although testimonials can help with that and having happy customers prepared to act as a reference).

            I have had people ask me for help but still be skeptical and I've just gone ahead and got them some new customers to prove I know what I'm doing - that's sometimes what it takes, but if you can do it - you win them over in a major way.
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            • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
              Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

              I think you can swing some people your way if you show them results for 'their' business. <snip>
              Yes! Bingo!

              I'd offer a more elaborate response but I have a one-month-old baby sleeping in my arms which limits how much I can write.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by mattrix329 View Post

      Because i'm from hawaii, it's practically impossible to find people who are willing to mentor others on running an offline consulting firm. Believe me, i've been trying for about a year now. So unfortunately, i'm stuck with what i can find on the warrior forums and google
      Hey - not all of us are looking for an excuse to charge you for information - if you have questions just ask. I might not be selling an offline product but I've been doing it for almost 10 years and I happily post my honest experiences here when people ask for it.

      You don't need a 'mentor' when you have the amount of experience at your fingertips that this forum offers.
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  • LOL.

    Hey, maybe if I write in bold letters with lots of exclamation points !!! people will get my point, which is that nobody can help small business owners except me because I've been doing it for so long! I know everything, and you know nothing! I even know what you charge and the results you deliver which is why I feel qualified to patronize you.

    The world is tough out there, and you're just a bunch of con artists because guys like me know what we're doing... and you don't!!!
    --------------------------

    In psychology, it's called projection, folks -- we tend to accuse others of exactly what we ourselves are guilty of doing.

    Can't speak for anyone else, but for me the best feeling in the world is when someone tells you to raise your prices as they're writing you a check.

    My advice: MYOFB. These rants are a waste of everybody's time, especially yours.
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  • Profile picture of the author enterpryzman
    WOW....this is all quite interesting. I would like to add that I own a fairly large local business ( brick& morter ) which is what led me to get involved in local marketing at all.

    In my own industry, most involved are not too bright in terms of internet marketing. I have owned my market online for about 8 years now and my offline business is thriving " in part " due to this constant new exposure that my competition not only lacks but does not even understand.

    If you are taking an offline business owner to a new place, perhaps that they never knew even existed, you do not have to be an expert in all things online, just those that you are providing them which brings the desired results.

    I do not care if you are taking someone online for the first time and are only providing a basic website to them, that is an important first step and has true value as well.

    I am quite obviously NOT an online expert but, I am an offline expert in my own industry and markets that are similar in size. My plan is to provide what I know.....does that make me less a value to those who I help rather than a more versed person who only provides the same thing due to budgets and owner choices ?

    Thanks for this dialog and educational thread.

    Enterpryzman
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Mattrix329,

      Because i'm from hawaii, it's practically impossible to find people who are willing to mentor others on running an offline consulting firm. Believe me, i've been trying for about a year now. So unfortunately, i'm stuck with what i can find on the warrior forums and google
      If you're totally honest and up front with clients and then become friends with them, it's quite possible that they'll want to learn everything they can - as seen from your perspective (not just business but also life, worldly knowledge), and in return they'll give the same to you - which can turn out to be quite similar to what you are seeking - mentoring - but from offline people.

      For me, this makes the absolute perfect blend of doing business, meeting new friends (and sports opponents) and personal development all in one - and the people I meet seem to enjoy the same blend - perfect.

      For me now, that is the definition of 'doing business.'

      Hi Steven,

      But maybe...just maybe...one person with half a conscience will read
      what the OP said and think to himself, "Maybe I shouldn't be doing this
      because I'm really not qualified and it's not fair to the business owner I'll
      be taking advantage of."
      I see what you mean, but is it a good thing to put people off? You could view it as part of the learning curve for people to just get out there and have a go, and in the process get their fingers burnt and get an ear-bashing off an MD (CEO). It might help them on their journey to get a baptism of fire which makes them go off and learn the ropes properly.

      If they can talk the talk but can't walk it - they'll get found out and blasted out the door. If they're put off by a random forum post - they shouldn't be in business in the first place!

      I don't really mind what the OP says or anyone else because whatever they're for or against isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to my business or my day :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    The way I see it (and the reason I created my forum) is the fact that there ARE millions of business owners out there that DO need help...and we have thousands of able marketers WILLING to help...

    I don't want to tell these excited-to-learn marketers "If you don't know what you are doing, then don't talk to business owners at all" because then BOTH sides LOSE...

    I prefer to go the route of "Here's how to do things PROPERLY so that you AND the business owner are very happy with the results, their businesses grow, and they are able to keep/hire more employees (whose families will benefit)"

    In the (spun off) words of John F Kennedy:
    Ask not what your knowledge can do for you - ask what you can do with your knowledge.
    Cheers,

    ~Dexx
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  • Profile picture of the author Russ Emrick
    Man, we're really ready to pull the trigger on the hostility trigger. While you might disagree with some of the OP's points, this thesis is sound.

    I've watched all these get rich quick IM trends - from email, to postcard marketing, to video production, and now Offline marketing. You see one guru roll out an idea and it becomes a wave that everyone follows (look at video: traffic geyer to andy's video boss.

    I've been a salesman and offline consultant for over 20 years. This offline gold rush using "commission only salespeople" is nonsense. My clients tell me that get 10 offers a day for some kind of new Web or Marketing gimmick promising to explode their business. My dentist and I had a good laugh over this. Kumar said it once in one of his WSO's: you have to be able to sell to get clients.


    Personally I feel that all of this offline "activity" will increase customer skepticism and buyer reluctance. I'm glad that I've built solid relationships and don't rely on the tricks and gimmicks I read about so often. Like anything else - built the right way a consulting service that provides value will prosper. The model says that you can outsource everything for $2, including selling only works for the guru selling to those I guess who've failed at IM or Amway.

    Another of the OPs points I'm fond of is that it is not easier to build an offline consulting business than to simply be successful online. I've found that to be true. His point (which Kumar's WSO also addressed) that you have to overcome the credibility issue if you're out pounding for business while telling the offline owner how easy you can make it for them.

    Just yesterday I got called by an SEO expert that has given me "tips" for years on, well, essentially how bad my websites suck. Know what he called me for? A job. Think offline guys are dumb: lets compare your income to theirs. Drive up in a beater in a crumpled shirt and you won't get past my janitor.

    I appreciate the OP's courage to interject some realism into this subject. Again one can talk about their business or their anecdotal info but at the end of the day most of this is just sound and furry without much light.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Russ Emrick View Post

      <snip>

      you have to be able to sell to get clients.<snip>
      I've sold widgets door to door myself, as well as telemarketing and other sales gigs. Being likable is a huge part of landing sales. Willingness to contact prospective clients more than once is necessary. How do you get good? Practice by doing it (this may involve messing it up a lot before getting it right). Doing internet marketing for offline businesses is MUCH MUCH EASIER to sell, I've found, and very ethical since it is beneficial to the client allowing them to cut advertising costs through online guerrilla marketing strategies and customer follow-up techniques. Also, they can get more bang for their buck in non-internet ad campaigns. Even with rudimentary IM techniques (no deception involved, ever). The main reason most IM marketers don't do well at it is because they plain don't go out and do it, period.
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  • Profile picture of the author numba8
    This is a great post. A little harsh, but completely valid. Offline marketing is tempting because us internet marketers think we know so much more about marketing then "regular Joe's." Truth is, we can't underestimate people. Especially, as the OP pointed out, people who have successfully built businesses and obviously aren't stupid.
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  • Profile picture of the author enterpryzman
    One last comment about this which is absolutely factual in all business. When you are honest and doing what you said you would do and providing results you said you would, you will shine far above those who fail to do this.

    In my own business, I love it when I have a chance to explain to a client or possible client what I do exactly for the money they pay me. I explain what they should expect and they contrast it in their own mind with what the others offer and provide. This makes me as a choice the only natural decision to make.

    I promise you that this is universal in all forms of business. When you explain options clearly and deliver more than expected, you will blow the competition away every time.

    Enterpryzman
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  • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
    Maybe I'm just not lucky or smart, everything I've ever accomplished in my life has been hard. I work 10/14/16 hr days on client acquisition, billable work and keeping track with the ever-changing internet landscape. It's not an easy way to make money but offline marketing has been a goldmine to me in that I've made a real difference for my clients.

    I'm thankful to those who made me aware of this business opportunity, those who provide the tools that help me in my business and even those who make outlandish claims, because their prospective clients eventually call me. Competitors come and go, snake oil only goes so far, but good business practices and hard work will bring good results.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheMagicShow
    Originally Posted by Tools For IM View Post

    DISCLAIMER: This post is not meant to be disparaging by any means. In fact, it's one that should save you lots of trouble down the road, if you're indeed planning on building a real "offline" business. Additionally, this post is quite long. I assure you, however, if you read through it, you'll save yourself a lot of hassle, headache, and money in the end. Promise.


    I can't pinpoint the exact reason for the explosion of this whole "offline" thing. It could be the allure of the big checks ($10,000 uprfront and $997/month just waiting for you to snatch it up). It could also be the conception that online is too hard or too competitive, and offline is easier because it's supposedly untapped. Who knows? At this point, who cares? This whole offline craze is completely out of control, and many people, you included, are at risk.

    Let's get a few things straight right now:
    • Offering marketing services to local business owners isn't an untapped, hidden goldmine.
    • Local business owners are constantly bombarded with pleas for their money under the guise of websites, marketing services, advertising, coaching and consulting. And this means...
    • There is LOTS of competition, and unlike you, they're coming into this with valid working experience and existing relationships.
    • Local business owners aren't as helpless as you've been made to believe. At least, not the ones you should be doing business with, because these are the business owners who will pay you according to the value you provide. The other ones? Forget about it.
    • "Offline" is a real business, and what you do affects other real businesses. Think about it!
    From big and outdrawn launches like "Main Street Marketing" and Russell Brunson's junk, to other products like those offered in the WSO section, these product creators want you to believe that local business owners are completely oblivious to the fact that online marketing is worthwhile, and by you helping them discover this godly revelation, the heavens will rain untold riches down upon you.

    Give...Me...A...Break!

    Now, there certainly are some valuable products that were created with the best of intentions. There certainly is a reason to be educating business owners on the validity and value of expanding their marketing beliefs and activities. But...

    If You Can't Get a Client For Yourself, How Can You Ever Help a Well-Established Business Owner?

    Sure, mindset is important in any endeavor, whether it's business or life. But, delusional self-belief is individually damaging at best, and at worst, you're contributing to sinking a business even further.

    The fact of the matter is, you're still dealing with clients. Your clients need you to be accountable and effective, especially right now. Things aren't getting better for small businesses. Right now, small business owners are ravenous...they need money too!

    Look at your own situation. If you're on the proverbial sinking ship, how can you ever claim to hold the keys to success for a small business that's already made money for much longer than you've been "involved in this niche?" This isn't a niche! This is life in the real world. This is real people with families, mortgages, goals and aspirations.

    If you're one of the lucky ones with a client or two, I'm sure they'd be terrified to find out you're lurking Internet forums looking for advice on how to best serve their needs, after you've already collected deposits and signed contracts with them. It all sounds so easy...Do a little prospecting, send them to your free junk, wow them with a free consultation, and you're well on your way to six figures. Because, hey...these business owners are clueless, and you're not! Wow...just wow.

    Listen Up...

    I've worked with business owners for years. I've had extremely happy clients and extremely disappointed clients. I've tested and I've tracked and I've monitored. But, the most important thing is, I've never been clueless.

    I'm seeing so many products that claim to provide you an endless torrent of qualified leads. So many, in fact, you won't be able to handle them all! Fact is...you probably can't even handle a single one!

    Let's call this exactly what it is...duping business owners out of their hard earned money.

    Any business owner worth their salt (i.e. Business owners who can and will pay large retainers and monthly fees) is going to engage you for results. They don't want an exploration of possibilities and miscellaneous services stacked to impress. They want to keep more of the money they currently have, and make more of it by spending less.

    Ready For a True Story?

    Part of my business is speaking and training. I teach workshops and seminars. I just wrapped up a multi-part series, in fact, that revolves around Internet Marketing for small businesses. There's such a unique dynamic there that most people ignore, but that's better left for another conversation.

    After the workshop wrapped up, one of the participants stuck around. He wanted answers. He opened up to me and revealed that my course was one of three in total that he has paid for, attended faithfully, and expected results from.

    "This is the most value I've received in a long time, and I think you for that. But...I need some help," he said with a genuine dash of immediacy in his voice.

    This individual is a Real Estate Broker (not an agent) who has been in operation for 25+ years now. His business is a consistent high six-figure earner. He's never done any of the "fancy pants marketing" that is being pushed these days. His websites are simple...really simple. But they get him results. He uses Adwords, and it's also created results.

    Here's where the trouble comes. The leads he acquired through Adwords accounted for, by his estimations, 95% of his business over the last 24 months. I was shocked, and he was worried...really worried. He said he was looking into Social Media as a way to diversify his lead stream.

    "I waited too long to take action on this, and I practically woke up in a cold sweat one night realizing my errors," he explained to me. "That's why I signed up for your workshop, and these other ones. And frankly, the other two were complete bull#*!%. I hate bull#*!%."

    Guess what? After a little probing, I realized that these other two courses were being taught by individuals who had no credibility to teach them. By the way, my course was $1,299 for 10 hours of total training. Theirs were completely free.

    Here's the kicker...they're people who jumped onto this "offline" bandwagon! How do I know? One of them uses a PLR product that I've seen being given away on this forum. The other? The copy on his website completely echoes the benefit statements and service offerings I see being pushed in certain threads. At prices I've seen being recommended all over the place.

    He had another confession to make.

    "I was so worried about my websites because they don't look like these newer ones. I was told that my technology would prevent me from showing up in the search engines. This other guy told me that he could get me more leads than I could handle with his Internet Marketing campaign, so I talked to him. After a couple meetings with him, I gotta admit...I was impressed. He showed me this map of all this stuff that could send me targeted traffic. So, I asked him some more specific questions. And suddenly, I started to realize he was full of sh&!. I could tell he knew nothing about how a real business works because he couldn't answer my questions, but only spout off what seemed like sound bites. Then, I really knew he was full of #^@! when I asked him how much, and his proposal was for $15,000 upfront and $1,997 a month. Obviously I didn't accept it. The price wasn't the issue, but his credibility was. So...what can you do for me?"

    You see, my student has been in business for a quarter of a century. He operates a six-figure business. This is, in the real world, the only type of business that can and would afford to pay you big money for results...the type of money that these "offline" product creators tell you is completely achievable. The fact is, a six-figure business owner has seen it all. They're not clueless about marketing like you're being led to believe. They didn't stumble upon a successful and profitable business by chance.

    So, How Do I Build a Profitable "Offline" Business?

    If you'll notice, many of the products being offered tell you that you don't need to cold call, you don't have to speak publicly, and you don't even need to meet with the business owner if you don't want to. All I have to say to that is...baloney!

    Communication is a basic and necessary business skill. There's a reason you discovered the "offline niche" in an Internet Marketing message board. You were likely averse to the idea of being out and about, making money the "traditional way."

    Here's a cold, hard fact... Credibility is only established through relationships. Relationships are only established through communication. Good communication will make you money. Period, end of story, goodbye and good night.

    If you haven't figured it out by now, you should be well on your way. Please, for the sake of all that is good with small business, don't sell them your marketing services if you're not capable of producing your own leads and clients. You're not in a position to help any business owner, let alone yourself. You're not credible, and at some point in time, your current or prospective clients will realize this. And, your business is gone.

    My business pays me, and it pays me well. I have systems and processes in place that have only been developed through years of toil and discomfort. I have credibility because I took the time, effort, attention, and energy to develop it...over time...with care. Now, am I saying there's no way to shorten the cycle? No. You can, in fact, and you should. But don't jump into "offline" because you just picked up the latest product that promises to reveal all the secrets to you. You're just setting yourself up for a disappointing fall.

    END OF RANT
    This dood is spot on! There are lots of hypes in regards to offline consulting and many are buying it and not making a dime off it.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I've made good money doing internet marketing for offline businesses, and helped the businesses in a trackable and transparent fashion (That is, helping them make extra profits in a way that can be directly tracked. Thus much more useful and honest than, say, the hidden-cost loaded looting "services" banks provide to small businesses). And, yes, it is a relatively easy way to make money, mutually beneficial all around. Even if the internet marketing services are relatively rudimentary (I offer more than that in my more advanced packages), since most business websites are missing even that. I'd say, jump in now before it becomes saturated (which will happen in short order, I predict).
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  • Profile picture of the author kenzdawg
    I take OP's point about the naivety of new entrants into the offline sector, nothing worth doing is easy. But some of us are here to learn and WANT to add value to SMBs, so maybe you should be telling us what you think offliners ought to know. What did you need to know to get to where you are? Which ten books influenced you the most? What did your client ask the other marketing guy? What do your clients really need from you? I'm guessing you're not an MBA either, nor is your business built on a load of hand-holding "business coaching" and personal relationships. You leveraged your knowledge into results. So c'mon man, enlighten us.
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  • Profile picture of the author marksinclair
    I needed this. I got sucked into the vacuum of offline marketing a couple months ago and Mainstreet Marketing Machines only made things that much worse. Just make a video! Send it to video sites! Send an email and wait for business owners to fight tooth and nail to be the one who 'gets' to hand you a check for $5,000 to $13,000. Then when you start finding out that business owners don't even bother responding to the emails, they say, "Pick up the phone and call them. Duh."

    I've tried just about every gimmick out there designed to allow you to get clients without having to speak with them first. They don't work. It really is about building relationships and constantly delivering value that business owners can actually verify. It is not easy at all if you have no experience. In my opinion, doing traditional im (adsense, affiliate marketing, etc), is easier for those that aren't comfortable doing face to face selling (and by selling of course, I don't mean being a pushy salesman, but listening to business owners and being able to help them).

    Thanks for the post topic creator.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by marksinclair View Post

      I needed this. I got sucked into the vacuum of offline marketing a couple months ago...<snip>
      Vacuum is the right word, since there are vacuums in small businesses' marketing strategies that need to be fulfilled. Is someone going to be good at communicating this to business owners from the get go? Will my baby learn to walk before he can crawl? What under the sun doesn't require practice to get good (vs dabbling and wimping out)? Can you get good at football (soccer) if you read a book on it then kick a ball a couple of times (oh I hurt my toe. Boo hoo hoo)?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jimian
    Nothing is ever as easy as people claim...

    I think the one thing people overlook when jumping into the offline marketing game is zeroing in on a niche they feel comfortable with... and sticking with that ONE niche.

    Once you got the niche down (industry lingo, keywords, etc), then you can hop from city to city (or state to state) selling your wares.

    To become a jack of all trades with a bunch of different industries is tough going.

    ~ JIM
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    OFFLINE Marketing Strategies For The OFFLINE Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Thanks to all in this and other offline posts, an enjoyable read, coming from around 30 plus years in offline business and only being in IM a short time, i am now returning to do a little offline work as in these threads. ~ Wishing all the outcomes they aim for.
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    | > Choosing to go off the grid for a while to focus on family, work and life in general. Have a great 2020 < |
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    You can't say "these offline businesses are not stupid and helpless" in one breath and then say "these offline tactics are ruining businesses" in the next.

    If a business is marketing savvy, then they're not going to let a bad online marketer take their money. And if a business is gullible to put out money on bad marketing, then they'd probably eventually fail on their own anyway.

    I'm not condoning the whole offline marketing frenzy going on. But if these offline businesses are as smart as you say they are, then they'll be able to weed out the idiots without losing their money.
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  • Profile picture of the author rovad
    I have to agree with the OP, I am personally an average marketer. I can make a couple of hundred bucks each month and I can get Google page 1 for all of the "low hanging fruit" I want and majority of "medium tough" keywords.

    I know a coach at the local gym for quite some time, and during out conversations I've mentioned a couple of times to him that I do IM. A month ago he approached me asking me to help him create a website for his island camp and market it online. After I researched the niche and saw how many (and there are many) BUYING keywords there are, I agreed. Now he is paying me 200$ a month to do the light link building and social network marketing for him which doesn't take me more than hour a day

    Thing is that I could ask him to pay me 3x or 4x times more, but I actually know my price. As I mentioned I can make a couple of hundred bucks (I have yet to achieve the 4-figure a month), so how can I ask him to pay me 600-800$ a month when I am barely able to make that kind of money myself?!

    However, I am looking into future, it is my first bigger SEO and IM project, and I will be able to use it as a reference for future clients, saying:"Hey, look, this is that site, I've been able to push it for this and this keyword which has that much searches and that much competition".

    It's nice to have dreams of huge money, but in reality it is practically impossible to approach someone who already owns a business and knows the principles of marketing it, if you are a complete newcomer and greenhorn.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
      Originally Posted by rovad View Post

      I have to agree with the OP, I am personally an average marketer. I can make a couple of hundred bucks each month and I can get Google page 1 for all of the "low hanging fruit" I want and majority of "medium tough" keywords.

      <SNIP>

      Now he is paying me 200$ a month to do the light link building and social network marketing for him which doesn't take me more than hour a day

      Thing is that I could ask him to pay me 3x or 4x times more, but I actually know my price. As I mentioned I can make a couple of hundred bucks (I have yet to achieve the 4-figure a month), so how can I ask him to pay me 600-800$ a month when I am barely able to make that kind of money myself?!
      You're letting your lack of self-confidence get in the way of establishing your true value to your client(s).

      Your work for him is bringing him how much business (in dollars) each month? If the number is $100, you're overcharging at $200. If it's $10,000, you're seriously undercharging.

      The real question is, are you experienced and knowledgeable enough to bring your clients enough business to justify to your client whatever price point you're trying to reach? If not, you need to improve your skillset - not lower your price.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarah Harvey
    @ Tools For IM

    To be fair you have to realize that some people may have great experience in some areas but may not have the patience or time to sit and create personalized videos or products. A person may be great at delivering valuable information on how to start a business, but may be not so great in the marketing field, so he/she finds a few PLR products that could compliment what they already offer and give it away as a freebie to their members/guests.

    There are some areas that I am really knowledgeable on because I have worked in these fields for quite some time, but other areas where I am a bit crappy I may substitute with good products or services from other individuals. Doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

    Of course it goes without saying that people who promote marketing in terms of being a coach, can seem dodgy if promoting a PLR product that you may know of. But if it is in an area that he is familiar with, or simply do not have the means to produce it himself and is upfront about not being the owner then I don't see the problem. However, PLR products are created for people that want the easy way out and don't want to spend x amount on cameras, video footage or audio equipment.

    Believe me when I say I am guilty of the exact same thing here in a way. One of my hobby sites I hardly touch. Why? I can actually pay some writer to write for me. I have intimate knowledge on the subject, yet my working responsibilities mean I do not have the time to sit around and create products or write articles. I have money... so all I do is specify exactly what I want in terms of title, subject and what direction I want the articles to go in and then leave the rest up to the writer. Saves me valuable time. I don't know about you... but I would rather save the time for doing something I enjoy then do routine tasks.
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    • Profile picture of the author D.K. Magnus
      Funny, I've been approached by 2 brick and mortar business owners, who want me to sent up some IM sites and help market them.

      They asked me because we've known each other for a number of years, and apparently see me as a straight shooter.

      I was flattered by their request, but being the "straight shooter' that I am, turned them down.

      My reasoning is the same as the ones Tools For Im put forth.

      I haven't been very sucessful in bring in clients for myself, so what would make me think I am qualified to bring in clients for them.

      They did approach me because I have a relationship with them.



      Dexx,

      I am a big fan of Deadwood, and really enjoyed your post.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Hey, produce trackable results and you'll do fine. Sure, it is not good to unfairly gouge customers and if you do karma will come back and bite you on the A$$, but that principal applies to all businesses (except banks, credit card companies, and merchant processors).
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