Yes, I completely agree. Reminds me of a recent product launch (Main Street Marketing Machine). Everyone was jumping in thinking it's the next big thing.

Warriors don't be sacred off by these types of scarey posts. 99% of the OP is wrong. If you want to work hard and do offline just do it.

George Wright. P.S. I really mean no disrespect to the OP, but these guilttrip "Everyone else but me is to dumb to sell offline" are getting tiresome.

George Wright

George,

I appreciate the response, but...

Never did I say anyone was too dumb for anything. It's a horrible misrepresentation of the message.

This isn't meant to scare anyone. This is meant to protect the validity of this profession from people who have no right to sell the services they're selling, at the price they're selling them for.

Think about this logically...if you don't know how to pick up your own clients, how can you ever tell a business owner you're going to do just that for them?

"Just go do it" is a fine and dandy sentiment, and while it may be pleasing to one's ears, it does nothing but get you in trouble when you're dealing with a real business.

Retracted.

Dude, I LOVE this post. I want the first part especially to be shoved down the offline "guru's" throats.

Hi,

I can understand your points, but George is also right.

I've been helping offline businesses with IM for about 8 years now and it is my experience that much of your OP is on the money.

Many business owners do know about marketing and have spent a lot more time marketing their business than many of the new mass of people thinking they know better.

Even the business owners who know nothing about the internet DO know about marketing their business - that's why they're in business.

If you don't know your craft you can ruin their business.

I also agree about relationships and meeting people.

I've never done any cold calling for web marketing consulting work as I value relationships and I've done a good enough job for people that they like to tell others to come and speak to me.

I also have a core skillset in running workshops and speaking, so that's also why I get business. There are web designers in my area that can create great sites but are too shy to speak to groups so I do that for them and pass them the site creation business.

Anyone starting out that can't speak to groups and wants to get their business by sending out postcards and cold-calling people is likely to find it hard going (but not impossible).

Then there's what you can do once you get clients. Many people have been led to believe that baffling business owners with IM BS and sounding clever is enough to get them salivating for your services - not usually the case, especially if you can't back it up.

You may think that a simple wordpress site is a 30 minute job and it may well be when you set up a blog for yourself, but you'd better be able to do a good job when someones business is on the line.
The sites don't need to be flashy but you do need to know what works as far as getting customers to take action is concerned.

Just because the business owner might think it looks nice and you can blame them if it doesn't get more business - doesn't mean you shouldn't do your homework and learn what 'really' works and will work for them.

There's no doubt that you can make quick money - but it's also easy to fall on your face and under deliver and kill your credibility - which ultimately will kill your business.

So - I say yes go for it, but don't think it's as simple as BSing a few business owners that google rankings will change their business.

Andy
p.s thanks for having your rant - although I don't completely agree with you, I do think it's important that people get alternative experiences from people in this niche.

Cool - I agree with Kelly too - this is a nice change

There are people in my area who only offer video landing pages and do a decent job helping businesses that already have websites.

You don't have to try and be everything to everyone - just be able to backup what you are doing and don't kid yourself (or anyone) else about what that is.

Kelly,

Point taken, but I believe it's completely off base. And yes, I have seen your sales pages. You didn't see mine, regarding the article service.

Listen, I'm not making any blanket statement about everyone who sells offline products. Read the post. I'm firing bullets specifically at those who sell offline products saying that it's easy, business owners are clueless, and you don't even need to meet them to make money.

No, it's not wrong to suggest he could increase his business by doing more. In fact, that's exactly what I did. In the workshop, and for free in our conversation after the fact. Like I said in the post...business owners DO need to rethink their marketing, and take on what makes sense. Most of the crap being sold doesn't make sense. Plain and simple.

Additionally, I'm not saying anyone is a "duper" for offering a service. They're a "duper" if they offer a service to bring a business more customers when they are clueless on the marketing it takes to get their own clients.

Why didn't someone tell me these things before I foolishly made lots of money doing IM for offline businesses? Then, I would have wisely given up and made no money on it.

Look, in most cases one can show business owners what is missing on their sites or offer *trackable* internet marketing strategies.

I'm getting ready to launch a heavy hitter, B2B "thing" for the "offline market" who wants to step up their game to the big leagues.

That way the kids who want to go pound on coffee shop doors and talk down to the owner can all fight over the scraps, while the real players move up.

I've worked with over 5000 businesses over the past 20 years, including Chrysler, Procter & Gamble, Reynolds & Reynolds, Champion Window, and many mid-market companies as well. All the rhetoric about who is what in offline this or that stops right at the line where those who talk about it collide with those who have done it as high as the Fortune 100 level for the past 20 years.

ToolsForIM is correct in that business owners are neither stupid, nor desperate, nor interested in your tactical level geek speak. There's a whole bunch of people who are rushing out into the market, dreaming of selling internet marketing to the small business market, and who will be sorely disappointed.

This is web design 1.0 coming full circle. When the market was flooded with kids armed with copies of Frontpage, cranking out template websites that looked just like the other stock template websites, the market collapsed. Only the real players who understood the game survived.

This is happening again, and the next big wave isn't SEO for local business. It's not getting your website to the first page of Google. That hit "main street" in the internet marketing business 2-3 years ago. Those selling shovels to the miners know exactly what's up in this business.

There is another marketing wave getting ready to hit in hardcore force over the next 24-36 months though.

I can see what the OP is talking about, but I can also see what Kelly is referencing when he states the "stereotyping" tone of the post.

If I understand correctly (the OP's post) his message is basically that "offline consultants" hyping up their ability to fill a business with new customers and leads (as if they were raindrops falling from the sky in a storm) is borderline shady IF they:

A) have no proven track record for delivering results
B) are charging large sums of money for something they have no "real clue" how to do

So those going out and purchasing products that tell them how to fill a business with "guaranteed leads" (i.e. MSMM) are setting "consultants" up for failure IF they can't deliver on expectations...

Is this correct?

If so, then I'd say that's pretty accurate...HOWEVER lead generation is also NOT the "end all - be all" of increasing sales and profits for a business...customer retention, follow-up, tracking systems for identifying wasteful spending, a focused marketing GOAL and expected results etc. are also key elements that a LOT of business DO lack...and CAN be helped with...

I don't think there's a debate going on in this thread, I think the end story is:

Make sure you know what you are talking about first before you start charging business owners, otherwise you are not only charging them for things you have no clue about, but also putting their business (and yourself) at a large financial risk.

Then again...I could be completely missing the point of this thread entirely, lol

~Dexx

Hey Dexx,

I think you've got the idea

This is one of those subjects that can easily turn into hypothetical scenario debates and semantic tennis with people arguing the meanings and different perspectives of the words being used rather than the real issue here.

This (of course) another subject that has many shades of colour and isn't a black or white thing.

I think the intention of the OP was a positive one - to stop people getting fooled into thinking that a little IM knowledge has more value than the ability to apply it and get good results.

I believe he was just trying to give people a heads-up that some of the talk in the IM niche has been driven by people selling information, and therefore given hyped up / false perceived value, hence the usual hyped "make $10k in a weekend" sort of marketing/sales messages sucking in people that have failed with other IM strategies.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I also believe that the negative/slightly aggressive tone was probably born out of frustration of seeing this going on and people being given false hope about the reality of things.

It's good that people care enough to start such threads.

If we just focus on pulling out the most useful and positive elements of this - maybe some people will be saved a bad experience.

No need to jump on the elements that can be criticised just for the sake of it.

Andy

That's the beauty of IM though - you get to choose your model and what level you operate it.

I prefer to work with small businesses because you can change someone's life by increasing their small business's revenue by a decent amount.

You can make more money working with bigger clients and even make them more money - but it's a lot harder to change their world. They have a board and shareholders to answer to and tend to work in a less personal way. That's good for some people and not what some want.

It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Andy

This thread reminds of something I saw a while ago:

Internet marketing and the gold rush mentality | Internet Marketing Strategy: Conversation Marketing

************************************************






You can pretty much apply this to any 'gold' rush, no matter what the 'gold' is. And now, 10-15 years after 'internet' became a common term, we still have that gold rush mentality.




















************************************************

Now replace "internet" with "business consulting/marketing" and voila! =)

Cheers,

~Dexx

I've been an internet marketer for about 2 years now. I've sweated and toiled over my own business for so long that in all honesty I HATE when other marketers take advantage of both online and offline business owners. So i can understand what the OP is saying. I do kind of want to add my own opinion to this mess...

I guess you could say that I'm one of those "dupers" you're talking about in the original post. However, I wasn't attracted by the "sales pages" of these offline PLR products out there. I decided to start my business because I felt that internet marketing can often be a lonely business. Especially affiliate/article/adsense marketing if you know what i mean. Offline consulting allows me to use what i've learned over those two years (i realize that it isn't much but hey i'm young) and help others with it. There can be no greater fulfillment than knowing that, at the end of the day, you helped someone achieve their goals.

However, i believe that you harm your reputation much more than help it by providing such a "personal" rant on a public forum.

Sure I may not have credibility yet. I only have one client. I'm also writing and publishing a book about the hardships of internet marketing... but hey what do i know right?

Sure, i may have learned much of what i know of the "consulting" part thanks to warriors like Kelly Verge and Maria Gudelis. I only use them to get ideas for my own business btw.

Do i charge 20,000 a package? Sure. Well, more like 15,000 for 3 months. But do i offer value for their purchase? Yes. Around 60,000 back links, 300 articles, 12 videos, 6 press releases, 240 UAW articles syndicated to that network, and A LOT more over a period of 3 months.


What i'm trying to say is that not all of this new wave of Offline consultants are here to "dupe" people out of their money. They don't all base their products off PLR items bought off the warrior forums. By the way, a lot of those products are really awesome . Well... a couple were. Several were only worth the $4 or $5 i paid for.. IF THAT. So i can see why you're upset by the influx of crap out there about your profession.

Honestly, I was attracted to the offline market not because of the big checks but because of the fulfillment offline consulting offers. To blatantly stereotype (myself and) other warriors is not only a sign of disrespect to the forums and its users but also to your profession. Let the newbies, like me, flounder around. It will only make you look that much more attractive in the long run. But please realize that not all of the newbies are out here just to get a quick buck.

Because i'm from hawaii, it's practically impossible to find people who are willing to mentor others on running an offline consulting firm. Believe me, i've been trying for about a year now. So unfortunately, i'm stuck with what i can find on the warrior forums and google

LOL.

Hey, maybe if I write in bold letters with lots of exclamation points !!! people will get my point, which is that nobody can help small business owners except me because I've been doing it for so long! I know everything, and you know nothing! I even know what you charge and the results you deliver which is why I feel qualified to patronize you.

The world is tough out there, and you're just a bunch of con artists because guys like me know what we're doing... and you don't!!!
--------------------------

In psychology, it's called projection, folks -- we tend to accuse others of exactly what we ourselves are guilty of doing.

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me the best feeling in the world is when someone tells you to raise your prices as they're writing you a check.

My advice: MYOFB. These rants are a waste of everybody's time, especially yours.

WOW....this is all quite interesting. I would like to add that I own a fairly large local business ( brick& morter ) which is what led me to get involved in local marketing at all.

In my own industry, most involved are not too bright in terms of internet marketing. I have owned my market online for about 8 years now and my offline business is thriving " in part " due to this constant new exposure that my competition not only lacks but does not even understand.

If you are taking an offline business owner to a new place, perhaps that they never knew even existed, you do not have to be an expert in all things online, just those that you are providing them which brings the desired results.

I do not care if you are taking someone online for the first time and are only providing a basic website to them, that is an important first step and has true value as well.

I am quite obviously NOT an online expert but, I am an offline expert in my own industry and markets that are similar in size. My plan is to provide what I know.....does that make me less a value to those who I help rather than a more versed person who only provides the same thing due to budgets and owner choices ?

Thanks for this dialog and educational thread.

Enterpryzman

The way I see it (and the reason I created my forum) is the fact that there ARE millions of business owners out there that DO need help...and we have thousands of able marketers WILLING to help...

I don't want to tell these excited-to-learn marketers "If you don't know what you are doing, then don't talk to business owners at all" because then BOTH sides LOSE...

I prefer to go the route of "Here's how to do things PROPERLY so that you AND the business owner are very happy with the results, their businesses grow, and they are able to keep/hire more employees (whose families will benefit)"

In the (spun off) words of John F Kennedy:

Man, we're really ready to pull the trigger on the hostility trigger. While you might disagree with some of the OP's points, this thesis is sound.

I've watched all these get rich quick IM trends - from email, to postcard marketing, to video production, and now Offline marketing. You see one guru roll out an idea and it becomes a wave that everyone follows (look at video: traffic geyer to andy's video boss.

I've been a salesman and offline consultant for over 20 years. This offline gold rush using "commission only salespeople" is nonsense. My clients tell me that get 10 offers a day for some kind of new Web or Marketing gimmick promising to explode their business. My dentist and I had a good laugh over this. Kumar said it once in one of his WSO's: you have to be able to sell to get clients.


Personally I feel that all of this offline "activity" will increase customer skepticism and buyer reluctance. I'm glad that I've built solid relationships and don't rely on the tricks and gimmicks I read about so often. Like anything else - built the right way a consulting service that provides value will prosper. The model says that you can outsource everything for $2, including selling only works for the guru selling to those I guess who've failed at IM or Amway.

Another of the OPs points I'm fond of is that it is not easier to build an offline consulting business than to simply be successful online. I've found that to be true. His point (which Kumar's WSO also addressed) that you have to overcome the credibility issue if you're out pounding for business while telling the offline owner how easy you can make it for them.

Just yesterday I got called by an SEO expert that has given me "tips" for years on, well, essentially how bad my websites suck. Know what he called me for? A job. Think offline guys are dumb: lets compare your income to theirs. Drive up in a beater in a crumpled shirt and you won't get past my janitor.

I appreciate the OP's courage to interject some realism into this subject. Again one can talk about their business or their anecdotal info but at the end of the day most of this is just sound and furry without much light.

This is a great post. A little harsh, but completely valid. Offline marketing is tempting because us internet marketers think we know so much more about marketing then "regular Joe's." Truth is, we can't underestimate people. Especially, as the OP pointed out, people who have successfully built businesses and obviously aren't stupid.

One last comment about this which is absolutely factual in all business. When you are honest and doing what you said you would do and providing results you said you would, you will shine far above those who fail to do this.

In my own business, I love it when I have a chance to explain to a client or possible client what I do exactly for the money they pay me. I explain what they should expect and they contrast it in their own mind with what the others offer and provide. This makes me as a choice the only natural decision to make.

I promise you that this is universal in all forms of business. When you explain options clearly and deliver more than expected, you will blow the competition away every time.

Enterpryzman

Maybe I'm just not lucky or smart, everything I've ever accomplished in my life has been hard. I work 10/14/16 hr days on client acquisition, billable work and keeping track with the ever-changing internet landscape. It's not an easy way to make money but offline marketing has been a goldmine to me in that I've made a real difference for my clients.

I'm thankful to those who made me aware of this business opportunity, those who provide the tools that help me in my business and even those who make outlandish claims, because their prospective clients eventually call me. Competitors come and go, snake oil only goes so far, but good business practices and hard work will bring good results.

This dood is spot on! There are lots of hypes in regards to offline consulting and many are buying it and not making a dime off it.

I've made good money doing internet marketing for offline businesses, and helped the businesses in a trackable and transparent fashion (That is, helping them make extra profits in a way that can be directly tracked. Thus much more useful and honest than, say, the hidden-cost loaded looting "services" banks provide to small businesses). And, yes, it is a relatively easy way to make money, mutually beneficial all around. Even if the internet marketing services are relatively rudimentary (I offer more than that in my more advanced packages), since most business websites are missing even that. I'd say, jump in now before it becomes saturated (which will happen in short order, I predict).

I take OP's point about the naivety of new entrants into the offline sector, nothing worth doing is easy. But some of us are here to learn and WANT to add value to SMBs, so maybe you should be telling us what you think offliners ought to know. What did you need to know to get to where you are? Which ten books influenced you the most? What did your client ask the other marketing guy? What do your clients really need from you? I'm guessing you're not an MBA either, nor is your business built on a load of hand-holding "business coaching" and personal relationships. You leveraged your knowledge into results. So c'mon man, enlighten us.

I needed this. I got sucked into the vacuum of offline marketing a couple months ago and Mainstreet Marketing Machines only made things that much worse. Just make a video! Send it to video sites! Send an email and wait for business owners to fight tooth and nail to be the one who 'gets' to hand you a check for $5,000 to $13,000. Then when you start finding out that business owners don't even bother responding to the emails, they say, "Pick up the phone and call them. Duh."

I've tried just about every gimmick out there designed to allow you to get clients without having to speak with them first. They don't work. It really is about building relationships and constantly delivering value that business owners can actually verify. It is not easy at all if you have no experience. In my opinion, doing traditional im (adsense, affiliate marketing, etc), is easier for those that aren't comfortable doing face to face selling (and by selling of course, I don't mean being a pushy salesman, but listening to business owners and being able to help them).

Thanks for the post topic creator.

Nothing is ever as easy as people claim...

I think the one thing people overlook when jumping into the offline marketing game is zeroing in on a niche they feel comfortable with... and sticking with that ONE niche.

Once you got the niche down (industry lingo, keywords, etc), then you can hop from city to city (or state to state) selling your wares.

To become a jack of all trades with a bunch of different industries is tough going.

~ JIM

Thanks to all in this and other offline posts, an enjoyable read, coming from around 30 plus years in offline business and only being in IM a short time, i am now returning to do a little offline work as in these threads. ~ Wishing all the outcomes they aim for.

You can't say "these offline businesses are not stupid and helpless" in one breath and then say "these offline tactics are ruining businesses" in the next.

If a business is marketing savvy, then they're not going to let a bad online marketer take their money. And if a business is gullible to put out money on bad marketing, then they'd probably eventually fail on their own anyway.

I'm not condoning the whole offline marketing frenzy going on. But if these offline businesses are as smart as you say they are, then they'll be able to weed out the idiots without losing their money.

I have to agree with the OP, I am personally an average marketer. I can make a couple of hundred bucks each month and I can get Google page 1 for all of the "low hanging fruit" I want and majority of "medium tough" keywords.

I know a coach at the local gym for quite some time, and during out conversations I've mentioned a couple of times to him that I do IM. A month ago he approached me asking me to help him create a website for his island camp and market it online. After I researched the niche and saw how many (and there are many) BUYING keywords there are, I agreed. Now he is paying me 200$ a month to do the light link building and social network marketing for him which doesn't take me more than hour a day

Thing is that I could ask him to pay me 3x or 4x times more, but I actually know my price. As I mentioned I can make a couple of hundred bucks (I have yet to achieve the 4-figure a month), so how can I ask him to pay me 600-800$ a month when I am barely able to make that kind of money myself?!

However, I am looking into future, it is my first bigger SEO and IM project, and I will be able to use it as a reference for future clients, saying:"Hey, look, this is that site, I've been able to push it for this and this keyword which has that much searches and that much competition".

It's nice to have dreams of huge money, but in reality it is practically impossible to approach someone who already owns a business and knows the principles of marketing it, if you are a complete newcomer and greenhorn.

@ Tools For IM

To be fair you have to realize that some people may have great experience in some areas but may not have the patience or time to sit and create personalized videos or products. A person may be great at delivering valuable information on how to start a business, but may be not so great in the marketing field, so he/she finds a few PLR products that could compliment what they already offer and give it away as a freebie to their members/guests.

There are some areas that I am really knowledgeable on because I have worked in these fields for quite some time, but other areas where I am a bit crappy I may substitute with good products or services from other individuals. Doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

Of course it goes without saying that people who promote marketing in terms of being a coach, can seem dodgy if promoting a PLR product that you may know of. But if it is in an area that he is familiar with, or simply do not have the means to produce it himself and is upfront about not being the owner then I don't see the problem. However, PLR products are created for people that want the easy way out and don't want to spend x amount on cameras, video footage or audio equipment.

Believe me when I say I am guilty of the exact same thing here in a way. One of my hobby sites I hardly touch. Why? I can actually pay some writer to write for me. I have intimate knowledge on the subject, yet my working responsibilities mean I do not have the time to sit around and create products or write articles. I have money... so all I do is specify exactly what I want in terms of title, subject and what direction I want the articles to go in and then leave the rest up to the writer. Saves me valuable time. I don't know about you... but I would rather save the time for doing something I enjoy then do routine tasks.

Hey, produce trackable results and you'll do fine. Sure, it is not good to unfairly gouge customers and if you do karma will come back and bite you on the A$$, but that principal applies to all businesses (except banks, credit card companies, and merchant processors).