WARNING: Traffic Travis sends YOUR data to THEIR affiliate companies

132 replies
One of the moderators (KenStrong) suggested I re-post this in the main area because it might generate a long thread and may not belong in the product review section (where I originally posted it). Since it may be an important topic for some people, here it is again.

Some background: Ever since I had a problem with PayPal over something they said was in their end user agreement (which still isn't there even today) and it consumed so much of my time to resolve, I've become a stickler for reading EULAs of any software/service from top to bottom.

Fast forward to the latest update of Traffic Travis. I was about to install the latest patch and was greeted with a long EULA that I must accept before applying the patch.

With the PayPal fiasco still fresh in my mind, I dutifully read the agreement top to bottom.

The majority of it was just standard intellectual property stuff, liability disclaimer, etc. ... which is fine.

HOWEVER, CHECK THIS OUT !!!

3.2 Transfer of Data

The Software may from time to time transmit the data collected and generated through your use of the Software (including, without limitation, search results and keyword and other rankings) to TrafficTravis (and any of our affiliated companies). You grant TrafficTravis (and any of our affiliated companies) a perpetual, irrevocable, fully paid-up, non-exclusive licence to store and use such data for out business purposes.

NOTE: The bolding and underlining are mine, and the word "out" should be "our" (but I wanted to copy and paste the exact clause) for accuracy.

Translation: Without ANY limitation, Traffic Travis can transmit YOUR keyword research to be used by ANY of their affiliated companies for ANY purpose.

Just think about the "without limitation" possibilities:

You've uncovered through your hard effort some great buying keywords with high volume and insanely low competition. Traffic Travis detects the prime range and ratio and beams the data to home base who then passes it along to their affiliate team to build a competing site to exploit the market.

Anyway, just thought there might be some other Traffic Travis users who might want to know about this. As for me, I'm removing it from my computer. That clause is there for a reason and it sure isn't for the good of the customer.

EDIT: Here's a direct link to the vendor's reply where they agree to address these concerns in their EULA (in case you don't want to read the entire thread).
#affiliate #affiliates #companies #data #sends #traffic #travis #warning
  • Profile picture of the author jdenc
    Was just looking at this tool yesterday. Guess I may be skipping it now. Thanks for the heads up.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Dyson
    Very interesting and slightly worrying. I suspect this is probably the case with many of these type of keyword tools, so it goes to show it's always worth reading the EULAs (though like many I am guilty of not doing so).

    Thanks for the heads up

    ~James Dyson
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    • Profile picture of the author Avidpoet
      I posted this question at the Affilorama website after reading this post and Im waiting on an answer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Marmbrust
        I have this same concern. Didja ever get a reply from Affiloram regarding the keyword research?
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
    wow! thats awful, goes to show as you said that you should always read the terms!
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  • Profile picture of the author Darren Hodgson
    Used this for some time instead of keyword elite. Looks like it's time to dust off KE again!!
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  • Profile picture of the author va_mom
    OMG, i just installed it 2 weeks ago and very happy with the software... Thanks for sharing CanuckWarrior!
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Did anybody really expect anything different?....

    I mean, seriously?.
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    • Profile picture of the author ozduc
      When it boils down to it, anyone that spends time creating software and then giving it to people for free, will usually have some motive other than just helping other marketers. It pays to read the fine print.
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      • Profile picture of the author gr101
        Is that so bad though?
        I use only it for "SEO Analysis" and "Page Analysis".

        I can understand keyword research one would not be too happy to share.
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      • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
        Originally Posted by ozduc View Post

        When it boils down to it, anyone that spends time creating software and then giving it to people for free, will usually have some motive other than just helping other marketers. It pays to read the fine print.
        Yes, I agree there is rarely (if ever) a free lunch.

        However, I'm (was) using the paid professional version.
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    • Profile picture of the author jdenc
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Did anybody really expect anything different?....

      I mean, seriously?.
      Well I can only speak for myself but I assumed they would be monetizing my email address in some way. And you know I am willing to live with that after all it's why I created an email address just for this kind of thing and they did put in some effort so that would be all good. Heck if this product worked I would look favorably on any marketing I was sent. However that is much different than me agreeing to allow them to snipe my work and use it to enrich themselves or whatever affiliates they may have a deal with. Whole different thing IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    posted on CNet to warn people.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I'm one of those people that annoy the crap out of salespeople when I actually read things before signing them. The more anxious and annoyed they get, the more carefully I read. This practice has served me well, and it sounds like it's serving you also.

      Thanks for the heads up. I tried the old version, but every time I tried to use it something got locked up and drove my AV crazy. So I just deleted it, and the problem went away. From the number of happy users (until now, anyway) it was probably something in my set-up.

      Always look gift horses in the mouth - you may find a bunch of guys with spears and swords...
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    • Profile picture of the author homejobcreator
      Thanks, CanuckWarrior, for alerting us! What prevents this from happening with other keyword software tools in any case, even if it is or isn't stated in the Terms? Di
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        Did anybody really expect anything different?....

        I mean, seriously?.
        Originally Posted by ozduc View Post

        When it boils down to it, anyone that spends time creating software and then giving it to people for free, will usually have some motive other than just helping other marketers. It pays to read the fine print.
        This practice is also true of a few of the "domain name search" sites out there.

        You type in your list of possible domain names and they become part of a shared database and often times hijacked.

        I'm still looking for that 'free lunch'. :rolleyes:

        ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
        Originally Posted by homejobcreator View Post

        Thanks, CanuckWarrior, for alerting us! What prevents this from happening with other keyword software tools in any case, even if it is or isn't stated in the Terms? Di
        Well I guess nothing really prevents it from happening if it isn't in the TOS, except perhaps advanced firewall settings and/or the integrity/assurance of the vendor that it doesn't happen.

        Hmmm come to think of it ... that might be a great hot button to push if any search tool vendors are reading this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Barnes
    Wow, I just want to say thanks for sharing Canuck Warrior, I have this software and I won't be upgrading now, I had no idea, I guess it's time to
    read the fine print eh!

    Thanks... Warrior Forum is awesome....

    David B
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Before anyone reads too much into this, it might be a good idea to bear in mind, "our affiliated companies" has a different meaning than "affiliates" in the Internet Marketing sense of the word.

    In simple terms, this means: Companies they own, or companies that own them (parent or sister companies). In a wider sense, it could also encompass companies that do business with them, however, that point could probably be successfully argued if the need arose as it doesn't seem to expressly state that your details could be shared by "third party companies"

    It's pretty standard practice for a company that handles and collects data - they need to protect themselves to ensure that they remain compliant with legislation, by expressly telling you how data that they collect could be shared.
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    • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
      Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

      Before anyone reads too much into this, it might be a good idea to bear in mind, "our affiliated companies" has a different meaning than "affiliates" in the Internet Marketing sense of the word.

      In simple terms, this means: Companies they own, or companies that own them (parent or sister companies). In a wider sense, it could also encompass companies that do business with them, however, that point could probably be successfully argued if the need arose as it doesn't seem to expressly state that your details could be shared by "third party companies"

      It's pretty standard practice for a company that handles and collects data - they need to protect themselves to ensure that they remain compliant with legislation, by expressly telling you how data that they collect could be shared.
      Yes, hopefully, it all just a big misunderstanding and the "without limitation" really doesn't mean "without limitation".

      However, I'd probably feel more comfortable if Dunkin' Donuts was Traffic Travis' parent company and not Affilorama.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    I am fed up with A LOT in the IM "scene", and this EULA is just a minor thing. Sometimes i really think i need a break because i cant take it any longer. Lies and deceit is almost everywhere.
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    • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
      Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

      I am fed up with A LOT in the IM "scene", and this EULA is just a minor thing. Sometimes i really think i need a break because i cant take it any longer. Lies and deceit is almost everywhere.
      The point is, this company is actually doing it PROPERLY - by telling you how the data is shared. Completely transparent.

      There was a case once where a company tested how many people actually read EULAs and within the wording they gave away something of high value - I think only one person claimed it. I'll find the link.

      The fact is, it is up to the END USER, to read the LICENSE AGREEMENT and accept it. After all, those are the terms of the license under which the software company authorise the user to use their software.
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  • Profile picture of the author DrewClement
    I am totally on the fence with this one. I mean it is to be expected in many ways through the use of free software (maybe not the paid and professional version that Canuck Warrior is discussing). But did anyone expect them to hand out this useful software without getting something out of it.

    The points that KarlWarren noted could possibly be added to the first thread in order to diffuse the initial reaction of anger that people are feeling.

    There is a big difference in the wording affiliated companies and suggesting that they will be passing on information to all of their affiliates, and they should be given a little bit of credit for at least admitting what they are doing and pointing it out in black and white.

    That's a lot more than other "reputable" companies seem to offer these days.
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    • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
      Originally Posted by DrewClement View Post

      I am totally on the fence with this one. I mean it is to be expected in many ways through the use of free software (maybe not the paid and professional version that Canuck Warrior is discussing). But did anyone expect them to hand out this useful software without getting something out of it.

      The points that KarlWarren noted could possibly be added to the first thread in order to diffuse the initial reaction of anger that people are feeling.

      There is a big difference in the wording affiliated companies and suggesting that they will be passing on information to all of their affiliates, and they should be given a little bit of credit for at least admitting what they are doing and pointing it out in black and white.

      That's a lot more than other "reputable" companies seem to offer these days.
      Drew,

      Are you aware that Traffic Travis was created by Mark Ling, the founder of Affilorama?

      If so, how do you suggest I edit my first post so that people do not become needlessly upset?

      The core business of Affilorama (an "affiliated company" of Traffic Travis) IS affiliate marketing.

      Seriously, I'd be glad to edit it. I'm not trying to mislead anybody with the information.

      I didn't say that Traffic Travis could send data to "all their affiliates", I said "their affiliate team". Would it be clearer to say "their paid staff who research and build affiliate sites and teach others how to do the same"?

      It was just an example of what could be done without limitation under the EULA.


      CW
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      • Profile picture of the author DrewClement
        Originally Posted by CanuckWarrior View Post

        Drew,

        Are you aware that Traffic Travis was created by Mark Ling, the founder of Affilorama?

        If so, how do you suggest I edit my first post so that people do not become needlessly upset?

        The core business of Affilorama (an "affiliated company" of Traffic Travis) IS affiliate marketing.

        Seriously, I'd be glad to edit it. I'm not trying to mislead anybody with the information.

        I didn't say that Traffic Travis could send data to "all their affiliates", I said "their affiliate team". Would it be clearer to say "their paid staff who research and build affiliate sites and teach others how to do the same"?

        It was just an example of what could be done without limitation under the EULA.


        CW
        Canuck Warrior, I didnt mean that you were out of line or that you should have to edit the post. I just was emphasizing the fact that a few points that were made further down in the thread were quite valid.

        Your post is more than fine and has valuable information without question.

        I just hope some people dont over-react and call for Mark Ling's head on a stick. At least the people at TT are being honest. That's all I meant.

        Great post and valuable information for people to have. Im glad that you took the time to read through it all in depth and point it out to others. In my opinion its sort of standard practice in terms of the free version of the software.

        I agree with you though that it may be out of line when it comes to the full paid version.
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  • Profile picture of the author E-supreme
    Its a free software, what do you expect. Its not going to stop me using it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Spot the Ball
      I can see it now.....

      Traffic Travis Team Dominates the "Red Silky Nickers" niche after spying on clients searches.
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    This is why I use Market Samurai. I loved TT. Damn, guess its outta here!
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    • Profile picture of the author ttrance
      I had the trial of Market Samurai and I loved it!! I didn't grasp a lot of it since I was very very new, but I could see It was something of quality...
      Recently also tried this traffic travis program and felt it was somewhat similar to Market Samurai...

      So the question is: If I'm going to invest in one of these tools Market Samurai sounds like a safe bet no??
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      • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
        Originally Posted by ttrance View Post

        I had the trial of Market Samurai and I loved it!! I didn't grasp a lot of it since I was very very new, but I could see It was something of quality...
        Recently also tried this traffic travis program and felt it was somewhat similar to Market Samurai...

        So the question is: If I'm going to invest in one of these tools Market Samurai sounds like a safe bet no??
        Personally I think Market Samurai is a great choice for someone who is "very very new". They have a training area (dojo) that has a ton of high quality training videos (with really cool sword and drum intros ). It would dramatically cut down on your learning curve for understanding proper keyword research.
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    • Profile picture of the author alfredlouis
      Why wouldn't market Samurai be less vulnerable to this? Couldn't they use your keyword research as well? just curious to know. Funny I was coming to this forum today just to ask this exact question about keyword tools.
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  • Profile picture of the author mlidgett
    Sh!T!!!!

    I upgraded the other day and just said yes the the EULA without reading it...

    Im going to think twice about using it now... I shouldn't of bought the Pro version damn it!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Used this for some time instead of keyword elite. Looks like it's time to dust off KE again!!
    I recently saw something similar about keyword elite too.

    We all really need to start reading the TOS
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    As mentioned above, at least TT puts it in their user agreement. That's the way it should be done.

    For those of you who are going to switch to an alternative, read the TOS for the alternative. Many of them contain language like this:

    If you place any information or other material on this website (including by posting messages, uploading files, inputting data or engaging in any other form of communication), you expressly grant to us a perpetual, non-exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable, unrestricted, worldwide licence to use, copy, sublicense, redistribute, adapt, transmit, publish and/or broadcast, publicly perform or display the information or material or any part of it.
    That's taken from Market Samurai. Keyword Elite has something similar.

    Point is, lots of these software and services may not necessarily be doing anything with your data... but their TOS pretty much covers them if they one day decide to start harvesting it.

    Bottom line: Always read the fine print.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author nemesis
    My biggest problem with all this not that they are doing it but that they do not make it clear they are doing so. I've tried reading some of those 'agreements' and it makes my eyes hurt and head ache. Just be honest and upront about what ever you are doing and stop hiding it in legalese.
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  • Profile picture of the author jintv
    Selling your website data is unethical. It is like you are breaking thousands of peoples trust. I would not visit such a site that practice this.
    Just my 2 cents.
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    • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
      Originally Posted by jintv View Post

      Selling your website data is unethical. It is like you are breaking thousands of peoples trust. I would not visit such a site that practice this.
      Just my 2 cents.
      No it isn't, providing you state that you reserve the right to, in accordance with all the laws relating to the handling of the data. It is up to you, the user, after agreeing to them doing it - to choose whether or not you wish to use the site/software.

      It amazes me how little "due diligence" people do when it comes to doing business...

      Failing to read/understand/adhere to terms of service
      Failing to read/understand/adhere to license agreements
      Failing to read/understand/adhere to applicable laws relating to their line of business

      And then seek sympathy when something happens which is clearly stated IN those terms/agreements/laws.

      i.e. "YouTube deleted my account because I (broke their terms of service...)"

      i.e. "Google cancelled my AdSense account because I (broke their terms of service...)"

      i.e. "My house is being repossessed because I can't pay legal fees, because someone is suing me for (breaking a law I didn't understand)"
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      • Profile picture of the author jdenc
        Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

        No it isn't, providing you state that you reserve the right to, in accordance with all the laws relating to the handling of the data. It is up to you, the user, after agreeing to them doing it - to choose whether or not you wish to use the site/software.

        It amazes me how little "due diligence" people do when it comes to doing business...

        Failing to read/understand/adhere to terms of service
        Failing to read/understand/adhere to license agreements
        Failing to read/understand/adhere to applicable laws relating to their line of business

        And then seek sympathy when something happens which is clearly stated IN those terms/agreements/laws.

        i.e. "YouTube deleted my account because I (broke their terms of service...)"

        i.e. "Google cancelled my AdSense account because I (broke their terms of service...)"

        i.e. "My house is being repossessed because I can't pay legal fees, because someone is suing me for (breaking a law I didn't understand)"
        It amazes me how many people think it's fine to do anything as long as somewhere in page after page of stuff nobody but the lawyers really understand it's stipulated.

        Those agreements are generally drawn up to not be very readable. Further unless you are a lawyer in many cases you may think you know what they mean but one little comma in the right place changes the legal meaning and all your reading was for naught.

        Be up front if it's no big deal. Say "hey if you use our software we may use the data you generate". Say it right on the sales page. Why don't they? Because as we both know virtually no one would download it. So they hide it as deeply as they can in page after page of dense legal jargon.
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        • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
          Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

          It amazes me how many people think it's fine to do anything as long as somewhere in page after page of stuff nobody but the lawyers really understand it's stipulated.

          Those agreements are generally drawn up to not be very readable. Further unless you are a lawyer in many cases you may think you know what they mean but one little comma in the right place changes the legal meaning and all your reading was for naught.

          Be up front if it's no big deal. Say "hey if you use our software we may use the data you generate". Say it right on the sales page. Why don't they? Because as we both know virtually no one would download it. So they hide it as deeply as they can in page after page of dense legal jargon.
          They're not going to babysit you, it's not in their best interests to do so. It is up to you, the buyer (remember "caveat emptor"?) to look after your own interests. If that means that you have to read a little deeper into an agreement, or, "ask someone (maybe even the site owner) for clarification", or maybe even not use a site/software, then so be it.

          I'm not condoning shady practices, what I am doing, however, is pointing out that certain wordings are ESSENTIAL in the eyes of the law for protection on both sides (client and business) - so that it contains specific legal definitions.

          ==== EDITED TO ADD ====

          Read your mobile phone/credit card/bank contract if you REALLY want to know how a company can/will use your data.
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          • Profile picture of the author jdenc
            Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

            They're not going to babysit you, it's not in their best interests to do so. It is up to you, the buyer (remember "caveat emptor"?) to look after your own interests. If that means that you have to read a little deeper into an agreement, or, "ask someone (maybe even the site owner) for clarification", or maybe even not use a site/software, then so be it.

            I'm not condoning shady practices, what I am doing, however, is pointing out that certain wordings are ESSENTIAL in the eyes of the law for protection on both sides (client and business) - so that it contains specific legal definitions.
            Not saying they should babysit. Just saying that the whole "people don't read" meme is overly simplistic and takes too much responsibility off the people using the legalese to do whatever they want. I have had these things written. Mine are always pretty short because they are simply about defining my responsibilities/liabilities and those of my users. Nothing giving me license to anything that isn't mine just because you visit my site or use some service I may offer.

            And, even though I know this is quaint, I also believe that there is a company responsibility to the communities and customers they serve to be good corporate citizens, to be upfront with their customers, etc.. I'm just old fashioned like that.
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            • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
              Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

              Not saying they should babysit. Just saying that the whole "people don't read" meme is overly simplistic and takes too much responsibility off the people using the legalese to do whatever they want. I have had these things written. Mine are always pretty short because they are simply about defining my responsibilities/liabilities and those of my users. Nothing giving me license to anything that isn't mine just because you visit my site or use some service I may offer.
              In terms of the OP, that wording is required (by law) in order for some companies to function.

              For example:

              Customer services employee is employed by parent company, but handles service/complaints for the subsidiary. If the wording wasn't there - the employee wouldn't actually be allowed to access the customer's details/data.

              I know that's a "best case" example, but, not all companies are out to pillage, just because their "legalese" terms (may) state, if interpreted in a certain way that they can do x, y, z.

              Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

              And, even though I know this is quaint, I also believe that there is a company responsibility to the communities and customers they serve to be good corporate citizens, to be upfront with their customers, etc.. I'm just old fashioned like that.
              We're on the same page here - I think a business/company should give (not specifically money) to the community/people that support it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Free Lunch = Caveat Emptor = What's The Catch Bud?

                Call me a cynical SOB, but anytime ANYBODY says they're going to do
                anything for me and it won't cost me a dime, my radar goes sky high.

                As Jay said, does this surprise anybody?

                When ever I deal with anything like this, I send emails to the company
                asking questions...tons of questions. And if I don't like the answers, I
                move on.

                You think I'm a pain in the ass here?

                Talk to some of the services I've NOT used and they'll tell you what a pain
                in the ass REALLY is.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

          The point is, this company is actually doing it PROPERLY - by telling you how the data is shared. Completely transparent.

          There was a case once where a company tested how many people actually read EULAs and within the wording they gave away something of high value - I think only one person claimed it. I'll find the link.

          The fact is, it is up to the END USER, to read the LICENSE AGREEMENT and accept it. After all, those are the terms of the license under which the software company authorise the user to use their software.
          There was a company, I can't remember which one but I think it was a game company, that had language stating that by installing the software the user agrees to sell his/her soul to the company in exchange for the right to use the software.

          Obviously they wondered how many people read the EULA too. Makes you wonder how many people have sold their soul and don't know it.

          Edited to add: I found it...
          In the latest stunt to show that Web users don't read the fine print, the U.K. company Gamestation inserted the following language in its terms of service: "By placing an order via this Web site on the first day of the fourth month of the year 2010 Anno Domini, you agree to Us a non transferable option to claim, for now and for ever more, your immortal soul. Should We wish to exercise this option, you agree to surrender your immortal soul, and any claim you may have on it, within 5 (five) working days of receiving written notification from gamesation.co.uk or one of its duly authorised minions."
          You can read the entire story here: http://www.mediapost.com/publication...art_aid=126451
          Signature

          Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            There was a company, I can't remember which one but I think it was a game company, that had language stating that by installing the software the user agrees to sell his/her soul to the company in exchange for the right to use the software.

            Obviously they wondered how many people read the EULA too. Makes you wonder how many people have sold their soul and don't know it.

            Edited to add: I found it...
            In the latest stunt to show that Web users don't read the fine print, the U.K. company Gamestation inserted the following language in its terms of service: "By placing an order via this Web site on the first day of the fourth month of the year 2010 Anno Domini, you agree to Us a non transferable option to claim, for now and for ever more, your immortal soul. Should We wish to exercise this option, you agree to surrender your immortal soul, and any claim you may have on it, within 5 (five) working days of receiving written notification from gamesation.co.uk or one of its duly authorised minions."
            You can read the entire story here: MediaPost Publications Look At The Fine Print: You Just Sold Your Soul! 04/19/2010
            Bit like the "Confidentiality Warning" I have on my emails -
            CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING
            Dude, this communication is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and the information in this communication is confidential, privileged, and proprietary property of Miserable Productions and Malcolm Lambe and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Further, this communication is not intended to create a boring-ass legal binding contract, neither the sending nor the receipt hereof, nor any comment contained herein, is intended to have legal effect. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any unauthorized viewing, use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Any publishing or sharing of this email without written authorization is strictly prohibited or I'll have your balls. Miserable Productions & Malcolm Lambe do not guarantee that the communication is free of the AIDS virus or indeed any other viruses, interceptions or interference. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately, delete it from your system and destroy any hard copy you may have printed or suffer the consequences of my wrath. This message will self-destruct in 20 seconds.
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            • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
              Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

              Bit like the "Confidentiality Warning" I have on my emails -
              I often considered adding the statement:

              This is a confidential communication intended for the readership of the original recipient only. Readers of this email agree to pay the originator $1000 per word and $1,000,000 per email address, phone number or mailing address transferred to any other party and agrees that any party receiving such information also pay the same. The price of this information is multiplied ten (10) times for each and every lawyer, judge or law enforcement member, affiliate or employee related to the use or abuse of this email or any of its information.

              Anyone who sends email to the originating email address agrees to pay $10,000 email plus any cost of collection, legal fees, etc. if in the recipient's sole discretion, the email is undesired or spam.



              Well, I am not a shark, so it sounds pretty poor, but you get the idea.
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      • Profile picture of the author alfredlouis
        I think they mean the concept of selling the data you are taking the time doing the research on is kind of lame. It is lame. If they want the data they should do their own research. That said read the EULA and if you don't like what you read vote with your feet and your wallet.
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  • Profile picture of the author Spot the Ball
    Just concentrate on building your sites and getting top rankings, everything you do online is tracked.

    If you really hit a goldmine, chances are its already being harvested anyway.

    Just do better than the next guy.

    I think everyone worrying about this is worrying about nothing really.

    Theres warriors on this forum taking on mega niches all the time and winning, let alone the micro niches.
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  • Profile picture of the author Spot the Ball
    Seriously, Do a run of AVG or Spybot on your PC and see how many cookies are on your Pc from various sites, it runs into dozens.

    You are talking like its a brand new phenomenom..... assuming you run adsense then all your adsense sites are tracking every single visitor ... hope you have a privacy policy in place.
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  • Ok, I'll try and address this as clearly as I can, without legal speak (as I am not a lawyer) so you can all sleep easy.

    You know the keyword research tool? How it displays search counts for words? Well, we don't have that data on tap because we're not the search engines ourselves. So when someone searches for a word/phrase for the first time, we have to go to Google/Yahoo/whoever and ask them about the search counts.

    When we get an answer, we store that answer in our databases for a while, so that we're not having to hit up the search engines every time anyone searches for "world of warcraft". Kinda like caching.

    We also store some data from the PPC tools so that it can be served up in different parts of the software. Again, just to speed things up.

    We don't store any personally identifiable information, and the things you search for are in no way associated with you as a user.

    Don't worry... we're not stealing your ideas. We're not selling the data to spammers. We're not even going to print t-shirts with ridiculous search terms on them and wear them around the office for laughs.

    I can understand the paranoia, but old Travis is pretty harmless

    Hope it helps clear things up.
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    • Profile picture of the author jdenc
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      Ok, I'll try and address this as clearly as I can, without legal speak (as I am not a lawyer) so you can all sleep easy.

      You know the keyword research tool? How it displays search counts for words? Well, we don't have that data on tap because we're not the search engines ourselves. So when someone searches for a word/phrase for the first time, we have to go to Google/Yahoo/whoever and ask them about the search counts.

      When we get an answer, we store that answer in our databases for a while, so that we're not having to hit up the search engines every time anyone searches for "world of warcraft". Kinda like caching.

      We also store some data from the PPC tools so that it can be served up in different parts of the software. Again, just to speed things up.

      We don't store any personally identifiable information, and the things you search for are in no way associated with you as a user.

      Don't worry... we're not stealing your ideas. We're not selling the data to spammers. We're not even going to print t-shirts with ridiculous search terms on them and wear them around the office for laughs.

      I can understand the paranoia, but old Travis is pretty harmless

      Hope it helps clear things up.
      But you do see the problem right? The agreement doesn't give limited rights to cover those functions it gives unlimited rights to do whatever the maker wants, whenever the maker wants and however the maker wants. This is what leads to issues, the over the top rights grab. It gives the appearance of something less than savory. So maybe that part could be revised and tightened up to be a bit more specific and a lot of paranoia would be avoided.

      BTW I like the T shirt idea.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

        But you do see the problem right? The agreement doesn't give limited rights to cover those functions
        Speaking as a long-time software developer, that's because if we only cover the rights absolutely necessary to do what the software does TODAY, we might not be able to ship the next upgrade unless you agree to a new license.

        And those licenses are written by lawyers, and lawyers cost money, and if you spend too much of it your users don't get free upgrades anymore.

        If we can do whatever the hell we want, it's a lot easier for us to ship a bug fix release without having to send it through legal for three months first.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author jdenc
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Speaking as a long-time software developer, that's because if we only cover the rights absolutely necessary to do what the software does TODAY, we might not be able to ship the next upgrade unless you agree to a new license.

          And those licenses are written by lawyers, and lawyers cost money, and if you spend too much of it your users don't get free upgrades anymore.

          If we can do whatever the hell we want, it's a lot easier for us to ship a bug fix release without having to send it through legal for three months first.
          Everything you mentioned here could be clearly stated in the TOS with a limited recognized right. Having had a few done myself it wouldn't take any more time for a lawyer to write you a TOS that covered these things without some universal right to everything for any purpose the developer deems fit. In fact it probably wouldn't take more than a couple of sentences to adjust it where you could do what you need to do to update or provide timely service as is the reason given in this thread without the big rights grab.

          Of course everyone will do what they will, how they will and if I want what they have I'll take my chances. Heck a lot of people don't even read the TOS they have written for them they just trust the lawyer to be able to turn out boilerplate legalese. So my guess is rarely are nefarious purposes afoot it's just easier this way. But that doesn't mean there isn't a better way and that there are never nefarious purposes either.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

            Having had a few done myself it wouldn't take any more time for a lawyer to write you a TOS that covered these things without some universal right to everything for any purpose the developer deems fit.
            If your license only covers what the software does, the lawyer writing it has to know what it does.

            If it covers everything you might ever do, it doesn't matter what the software actually does.

            Surely you can see that teaching a lawyer what your software does might take a little time, n'est-ce pas?
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author jdenc
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              If your license only covers what the software does, the lawyer writing it has to know what it does.

              If it covers everything you might ever do, it doesn't matter what the software actually does.

              Surely you can see that teaching a lawyer what your software does might take a little time, n'est-ce pas?
              Sure I do. Like I said the shotgun approach is the easy way, I completely get that. But with that said if I have to take a little longer and spend a few more bucks to head off threads like this it's worth it to me. Even giving yourself the exact same rights but explaining the reason for them where your potential customer can easily find it could be a way to go. Just having it sitting there out of context can cause issues, obviously.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

                Sure I do. Like I said the shotgun approach is the easy way, I completely get that.
                What you don't seem to get is that the alternative is so impractical as to be effectively impossible.
                Signature
                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                • Profile picture of the author jdenc
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  What you don't seem to get is that the alternative is so impractical as to be effectively impossible.
                  No I get that's what you're saying. I disagree. It isn't as easy as just taking some boilerplate, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks approach but it isn't anywhere near impossible. Especially if you only go the explanation route.

                  Is it really that hard to write a paragraph that says something to the effect of "hey I know section 3 sounds kind of scary but we have to have that to effectively deliver the service, updates and this is why" and place it somewhere easy to find if not in the TOS itself? Really that's effectively impossible?
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

                    Is it really that hard to write a paragraph that...
                    ...alters the substance of the legal agreement, and may destroy any ability to enforce it in court?

                    No. But any lawyer that's worth what you pay him is not going to let you write it.
                    Signature
                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                      For those still worried about the TT team stealing their ideas, consider a predator contemplating a school of small fish such as this:


                      Change the scale to reflect many thousands of searches, and your best protection lies in that huge number, the same way an individual fish has better odds sticking with the school than going it alone...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                        For those still worried about the TT team stealing their ideas, consider a predator contemplating a school of small fish such as this:

                        YouTube - The Amazing School of Fish

                        Change the scale to reflect many thousands of searches, and your best protection lies in that huge number, the same way an individual fish has better odds sticking with the school than going it alone...
                        I get your point, John...they are going to get a belly full and some poor little fishes are going to end up loosing everything, but the majority will escape.

                        For now.

                        Yep, something's fishy, alright...

                        ~Bill

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        • Profile picture of the author psresearch
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Speaking as a long-time software developer, that's because if we only cover the rights absolutely necessary to do what the software does TODAY, we might not be able to ship the next upgrade unless you agree to a new license.

          And those licenses are written by lawyers, and lawyers cost money, and if you spend too much of it your users don't get free upgrades anymore.

          If we can do whatever the hell we want, it's a lot easier for us to ship a bug fix release without having to send it through legal for three months first.
          Sorry. Could only hit the Thanks button once. To me this is the "end of story" post.
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      • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
        Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

        But you do see the problem right? The agreement doesn't give limited rights to cover those functions it gives unlimited rights to do whatever the maker wants, whenever the maker wants and however the maker wants. This is what leads to issues, the over the top rights grab. It gives the appearance of something less than savory. So maybe that part could be revised and tightened up to be a bit more specific and a lot of paranoia would be avoided.

        BTW I like the T shirt idea.

        The question to Traffic Travis is not "how honest are you?" but "How honest is your successor?" and "Are you protecting us or setting us up to be scraped for profit from your successor?"

        How many times in my life have there been caring companies bought out or taken over by greedy, heartess CEOs or corporations.

        We should always consider the 'bus factor'. (what happens if the head-honcho gets hit by a bus and dies?)
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  • Profile picture of the author Vanquish
    Good to know about this, I was considering purchasing the paid version but now I'm just going to stick to the plain Google keyword tool.
    Signature
    Nothing to sell, only value to give and new knowledge to learn.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Karl,

    You're awesome.

    Dennis,

    Thanks for digging that up...a great read!

    Thanks,
    Steve
    Signature

    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Whoop dee doo. I think that expresses my "outrage" and "indignity" over this "offense" by Traffic Travis. Wait, let me think about that. Yes yes, I'm quite certain that is an accurate reflection of my innermost thoughts and feelings.

    WHOOP DEE FREAKIN' DOO.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by CanuckWarrior View Post

    Translation: Without ANY limitation, Traffic Travis can transmit YOUR keyword research to be used by ANY of their affiliated companies for ANY purpose.
    Translation: you cannot sue the makers of Traffic Travis for transmitting "your" data.

    Imagine that the TT developers include a guy named John. John decides to enter a niche that you happen to have entered. He targets some of the same keywords you targeted. You find out John works for the TT dev team, and you have a snit over it. You call a lawyer, and the lawyer says "all we have to do is show a reasonable likelihood that John got his data from the research you did in Traffic Travis!"

    And then you go to court, and the TT legal team says "we are not going to address the question of whether we did or did not get this data from the plaintiff's reseach, because even if we did, we have here a license to which the plaintiff has explicitly agreed - and this license stipulates that we have every right to transmit this data."

    And the judge points at you and says "You're stupid! You're a stupid jerk!" and bangs his little hammer thingy.

    Or something like that.

    Let me put this another way.

    The guys at Traffic Travis do not give a flying leap what the hell you are researching in your stupid little home office.

    You are not the next internet genius. Nobody is spying on you. They don't care. There are twelve million people out there researching the same old crap every day, and you're not the shining beacon of intelligence in the crowd. You're just another one of them. Your ideas are not mind-blowing or ground-shaking by any stretch of the imagination. On the off chance that the people from Traffic Travis get your keyword research, do you know what they are going to do with it?

    Not a damn thing.

    So they have made good and sure that you can't sue them for this stupid crap, because they know all too well that every internet marketer on the planet thinks HIS niche is somehow DIFFERENT and he is about to be RICH... until he has competition, and then it's all his competition's fault that his stupid idea was, well, stupid - just like theirs.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Translation: you cannot sue the makers of Traffic Travis for transmitting "your" data.

      Imagine that the TT developers include a guy named John. John decides to enter a niche that you happen to have entered. He targets some of the same keywords you targeted. You find out John works for the TT dev team, and you have a snit over it. You call a lawyer, and the lawyer says "all we have to do is show a reasonable likelihood that John got his data from the research you did in Traffic Travis!"

      And then you go to court, and the TT legal team says "we are not going to address the question of whether we did or did not get this data from the plaintiff's reseach, because even if we did, we have here a license to which the plaintiff has explicitly agreed - and this license stipulates that we have every right to transmit this data."

      And the judge points at you and says "You're stupid! You're a stupid jerk!" and bangs his little hammer thingy.

      Or something like that.

      Let me put this another way.

      The guys at Traffic Travis do not give a flying leap what the hell you are researching in your stupid little home office.

      You are not the next internet genius. Nobody is spying on you. They don't care. There are twelve million people out there researching the same old crap every day, and you're not the shining beacon of intelligence in the crowd. You're just another one of them. Your ideas are not mind-blowing or ground-shaking by any stretch of the imagination. On the off chance that the people from Traffic Travis get your keyword research, do you know what they are going to do with it?

      Not a damn thing.

      So they have made good and sure that you can't sue them for this stupid crap, because they know all too well that every internet marketer on the planet thinks HIS niche is somehow DIFFERENT and he is about to be RICH... until he has competition, and then it's all his competition's fault that his stupid idea was, well, stupid - just like theirs.
      Had to thank this post - for a little perspective if anything. Made me feel like a total braindead moron too

      To be honest, I assume almost everything I do online is tracked anyway.

      I think the issue is there ARE extremely unethical websites (and software) out there (like domain name search websites) which DO actively collect user data to use in an unethical way. Hell, I *almost* worked with somebody who did exactly this...point is, it happens, whether only 1% of the time or not.

      You should always read the fine print in business and if you can't be arsed, then hire a legal professional to do it. If you don't read the fine print and get screwed later..yeh..that's your fault for not doing your due diligence.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Damien Roche View Post

        I think the issue is there ARE extremely unethical websites (and software) out there (like domain name search websites) which DO actively collect user data to use in an unethical way.
        An unethical website would say something like "we will guard your data as if it were our own."

        Hey, we use our own data for personal profit and gain all the time! We give it to anyone we want! And that's precisely what we'll do with yours... exploit it for our own personal profit and gain by giving it to anyone we want, at our own discretion.

        Don't fear the fine print. Fear the LACK of it.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Floyd,

      Hopefully, the developers will come here and explain what is going on and why.
      Post #44 & 54
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Translation: you cannot sue the makers of Traffic Travis for transmitting "your" data.

      Imagine that the TT developers include a guy named John. John decides to enter a niche that you happen to have entered. He targets some of the same keywords you targeted. You find out John works for the TT dev team, and you have a snit over it. You call a lawyer, and the lawyer says "all we have to do is show a reasonable likelihood that John got his data from the research you did in Traffic Travis!"

      And then you go to court, and the TT legal team says "we are not going to address the question of whether we did or did not get this data from the plaintiff's reseach, because even if we did, we have here a license to which the plaintiff has explicitly agreed - and this license stipulates that we have every right to transmit this data."

      And the judge points at you and says "You're stupid! You're a stupid jerk!" and bangs his little hammer thingy.

      Or something like that.

      Let me put this another way.

      The guys at Traffic Travis do not give a flying leap what the hell you are researching in your stupid little home office.

      You are not the next internet genius. Nobody is spying on you. They don't care. There are twelve million people out there researching the same old crap every day, and you're not the shining beacon of intelligence in the crowd. You're just another one of them. Your ideas are not mind-blowing or ground-shaking by any stretch of the imagination. On the off chance that the people from Traffic Travis get your keyword research, do you know what they are going to do with it?

      Not a damn thing.

      So they have made good and sure that you can't sue them for this stupid crap, because they know all too well that every internet marketer on the planet thinks HIS niche is somehow DIFFERENT and he is about to be RICH... until he has competition, and then it's all his competition's fault that his stupid idea was, well, stupid - just like theirs.
      Says.It.All.

      Caliban sums it up right here. Plus, there are plenty of keywords to go around...AND...

      Ummm... you can decide to use another program? But I'm willing to bet their TOS says the same thing in a different way (no, I didn't look, so I could be wrong there).
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  • As people have mentioned here already, if we didn't go a little bit "over the top" we might end up in a pickle.

    I really loved the post by CDarklock... I'd sum it up in a similar way, but perhaps a little more kindly. I'm sure all your ideas are wonderful. I'm sure they're going to make you lots of nice money. But really, we've got enough on our plates at the moment without stealing your ideas. (Wonderful though they may be.)

    Although I must say... I'm kind of digging this Matrix-like vision of workers plugged into TT, churning out affiliate sites whenever some certain threshold is hit. Maybe one day when we get fibre in the office. But not just yet.

    That was a joke, by the way. We won't be getting that written into the user agreement.

    Just remember, all that stuff in the user agreement is written by lawyers, not humans. They're not trying to explain how things are used, they're trying to avoid any possibility that we'll end up in that pickle.

    We'll have a chat to them and see if they can tighten it up and make it a bit more explicit.

    EDIT: If you're coming here by the direct link at the top of the thread, here's another link to our earlier post where we actually say what we do with the data. Basically, all we're doing with the data is caching results to make TT run faster. Although we're kind of flattered by the extreme deviousness you think we're capable of

    Next... a "lazer"...
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      I'm sure all your ideas are wonderful.
      Oh, no. Trust me. I've been here listening to these ideas for a whole year. The word "wonderful" is really the wrong one. If you need a word that starts with "W," I think the rest of it has to be "TF" to accurately represent most of these ideas.

      While that may seem harsh, keep in mind that I do not in any way exempt my own ideas from this analysis.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      As people have mentioned here already, if we didn't go a little bit "over the top" we might end up in a pickle.

      I really loved the post by CDarklock... I'd sum it up in a similar way, but perhaps a little more kindly. I'm sure all your ideas are wonderful. I'm sure they're going to make you lots of nice money. But really, we've got enough on our plates at the moment without stealing your ideas. (Wonderful though they may be.)

      Although I must say... I'm kind of digging this Matrix-like vision of workers plugged into TT, churning out affiliate sites whenever some certain threshold is hit. Maybe one day when we get fibre in the office. But not just yet.

      That was a joke, by the way. We won't be getting that written into the user agreement.

      Just remember, all that stuff in the user agreement is written by lawyers, not humans. They're not trying to explain how things are used, the trying to avoid any possibility that we'll end up in that pickle.

      We'll have a chat to them and see if they can tighten it up and make it a bit more explicit.
      WIN!

      .
      .....
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      "Ich bin en fuego!"
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        WIN!

        .
        .....
        Lawyers, not humans. Brilliant

        Well done, Fara!
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        Not promoting right now

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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      Just remember, all that stuff in the user agreement is written by lawyers, not humans. They're not trying to explain how things are used, the trying to avoid any possibility that we'll end up in that pickle.

      We'll have a chat to them and see if they can tighten it up and make it a bit more explicit.
      Um...don't tell your lawyers they are not human, they might leave one of the pickle jars open.
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      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Um...don't tell your lawyers they are not human
        Dennis, they already know.

        The big argument is in which is the higher life-form.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Dennis, they already know.

          The big argument is in which is the higher life-form.
          Um...I vote for the pickle.
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    • Profile picture of the author jdenc
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      As people have mentioned here already, if we didn't go a little bit "over the top" we might end up in a pickle.

      I really loved the post by CDarklock... I'd sum it up in a similar way, but perhaps a little more kindly. I'm sure all your ideas are wonderful. I'm sure they're going to make you lots of nice money. But really, we've got enough on our plates at the moment without stealing your ideas. (Wonderful though they may be.)

      Although I must say... I'm kind of digging this Matrix-like vision of workers plugged into TT, churning out affiliate sites whenever some certain threshold is hit. Maybe one day when we get fibre in the office. But not just yet.

      That was a joke, by the way. We won't be getting that written into the user agreement.

      Just remember, all that stuff in the user agreement is written by lawyers, not humans. They're not trying to explain how things are used, the trying to avoid any possibility that we'll end up in that pickle.

      We'll have a chat to them and see if they can tighten it up and make it a bit more explicit.
      Which is all you can really do and the effort is appreciated as is your visit to this thread. Probably gained yourself another user when I am ready to get my toolbox together.
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    • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Speaking as a long-time software developer, that's because if we only cover the rights absolutely necessary to do what the software does TODAY, we might not be able to ship the next upgrade unless you agree to a new license.

      And those licenses are written by lawyers, and lawyers cost money, and if you spend too much of it your users don't get free upgrades anymore.

      If we can do whatever the hell we want, it's a lot easier for us to ship a bug fix release without having to send it through legal for three months first.

      Yes and no. My alter-ego (read day job) is a project manager for a software company that develops enterprise systems that range in price from thousands to the hundreds of thousands (depending on the setting, number of sites, users, backend, etc.) so it's not like I just fell off the turnip wagon when it comes to software agreements.

      I certainly don't write them and I sure hate reading them, but our company lawyers write the legalese based on the framework of the actual service being provided. It's not one size fits all (at least in what we do).

      One of our best selling SaaS systems was explicitly developed and marketed BECAUSE of perceived conflict of interest by end users who were forced to use the proprietary software of the physical service providers (which in turn made it difficult to choose alternate physical service providers).

      Also, since you're in software you also know how easy it would be to write a server side script to scan every single keyword phrase passing though a "cashe setup" and spit out anything that meets pre-determined traffic volume and competition (or any other matching criteria).

      If there was little to no value in keywords for internet marketing, then people wouldn't be paying $97 per MONTH for keyword lists like instacash generated from tools like Micro Niche Finder.

      The automated revenue stream possibilities are endless for collective keyword research under that "without limitation" clause and you wouldn't need a room full of dedicated people in funny t-shirts to do it either.


      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      Just remember, all that stuff in the user agreement is written by lawyers, not humans. They're not trying to explain how things are used, the trying to avoid any possibility that we'll end up in that pickle.

      We'll have a chat to them and see if they can tighten it up and make it a bit more explicit.

      That's good news Fara. Thanks for taking the time to address the concerns that some of us have. Looking forward to reading the revised EULA. Hopefully it will be included with 3.2.6 update.

      I'll edit my original post so people know you guys are going to address the issue.


      CW
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by CanuckWarrior View Post

        a software company that develops enterprise systems
        This is very different from developing software for end users.

        Also, since you're in software you also know how easy it would be
        Well, yes. But identifying the criteria that actually mean a niche is profitable? That's an NP-hard problem. Only a human being is any good at it. Ask the hundreds of niche marketers IN THIS FORUM who can't come up with good keywords, even though their software says their idea is awesome.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

    Karl,

    You're awesome.
    Karl Warren may from time to time transmit this quote collected and generated through your use of WarriorForum (including, without limitation, the words "Karl", "you're" and "awesome") to family members (and any of his friends and associates). You grant Karl Warren (and any of his associates) a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive licence to store and use said for his personal gratification.
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    • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      Karl,

      You're hilarious!

      - Marc Rodill
      And now I have to get my lawyers to draft another one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      Karl,

      You're hilarious!

      - Marc Rodill

      Hey Marc, did you get a haircut or run under a buzz saw?

      Just curious.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Hey Marc, did you get a haircut or run under a buzz saw?

        Just curious.
        Hey! I happen to like his new hair style. You might be next.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Originally Posted by CanuckWarrior View Post

    One of the moderators (KenStrong) suggested I re-post this in the main area because it might generate a long thread and may not belong in the product review section (where I originally posted it). Since it may be an important topic for some people, here it is again.

    Some background: Ever since I had a problem with PayPal over something they said was in their end user agreement (which still isn't there even today) and it consumed so much of my time to resolve, I've become a stickler for reading EULAs of any software/service from top to bottom.

    Fast forward to the latest update of Traffic Travis. I was about to install the latest patch and was greeted with a long EULA that I must accept before applying the patch.

    With the PayPal fiasco still fresh in my mind, I dutifully read the agreement top to bottom.

    The majority of it was just standard intellectual property stuff, liability disclaimer, etc. ... which is fine.

    HOWEVER, CHECK THIS OUT !!!

    3.2 Transfer of Data

    The Software may from time to time transmit the data collected and generated through your use of the Software (including, without limitation, search results and keyword and other rankings) to TrafficTravis (and any of our affiliated companies). You grant TrafficTravis (and any of our affiliated companies) a perpetual, irrevocable, fully paid-up, non-exclusive licence to store and use such data for out business purposes.

    NOTE: The bolding and underlining are mine, and the word "out" should be "our" (but I wanted to copy and paste the exact clause) for accuracy.

    Translation: Without ANY limitation, Traffic Travis can transmit YOUR keyword research to be used by ANY of their affiliated companies for ANY purpose.

    Just think about the "without limitation" possibilities:

    You've uncovered through your hard effort some great buying keywords with high volume and insanely low competition. Traffic Travis detects the prime range and ratio and beams the data to home base who then passes it along to their affiliate team to build a competing site to exploit the market.

    Anyway, just thought there might be some other Traffic Travis users who might want to know about this. As for me, I'm removing it from my computer. That clause is there for a reason and it sure isn't for the good of the customer.

    EDIT: Here's a direct link to the vendor's reply where they agree to address these concerns in their EULA (in case you don't want to read the entire thread).
    While I understand your concerns, I highly doubt Traffic Travis is looking for new niches to jump into, nor are they selling this info to others.

    More than likely, what they are doing is analyizing how the software is being used, and using that info to make improvements, or developing/selling services related to getting the maximum used out of their software.

    If I were in their shoes, that is exactly what I would be doing, however I would make it an optional checkbox that comes up every time the software is started, or put it in the settings, with an exact explanation of why it's there and should be left on.

    That is my take. Hopefully, the developers will come here and explain what is going on and why.
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    • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Hopefully, the developers will come here and explain what is going on and why.
      Yes, they did. That's why there's a direct link to their reply in my original post you quoted.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    It's sad how many people assume the worst.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaarrrggghhh
    Thanks for sharing. I know of alot of software that does do this, not sure what the industry standard is, but doesn't Google does this too? How else do they uncover what you are searching for...and they share those results with you and everyone else everytime you search for anything...and they don't even ask you, am sure it is in all of that fine print somewhere. They share, sell and make lots of money off from what we search for...and they help us do it with a huge smile all the way to the bank I am sure
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    First of all, it has a sticker on the site where it gets downloaded -- no spyware, no adware.

    Secondly, if it is a windows product, I have a way of dealing with ET. Cut the line to home!

    I am on linux now, but when I was on windows I had a free firewall that would monitor all outgoing links. When a product phoned home, it would pop-up a warning. I would then optionally allow or disallow the connection. It took time to train, especially in the beginning, but then it only bothered me when I got updates and new products.

    I first used it to trap the ET script in Real Player. It would always load an active system file even though I rarely used the product. I cut it off and it never autoloaded or advertised again. Sine then, I found it useful to dozens of other products whose ET script did not seem to be a necessity.

    Maybe it will work here?

    Buck
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  • Profile picture of the author fistofis
    unfortunately i never use traffic travis.. maybe i'll try later, btw thanks for this sharing
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  • Profile picture of the author Darren Hodgson
    ted off keyword elite like I said. It's hard enough finding good keywords with out someone else stealing them from you.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

      I get your point, John...they are going to get a belly full and some poor little fishes are going to end up loosing everything, but the majority will escape.

      For now.

      Yep, something's fishy, alright...

      ~Bill

      Actually, my point was that a ball of tiny fish like in the video is a constantly moving target. If you've ever seen a predator charge a bait ball like that, you've seen the predator swoop in and the little fish scatter safely, only to regroup again.

      The predator with the full belly is the one that picks on a specific target. And usually the specific target is a straggler or somehow different than the others.

      So the vast majority of TT users will be like that ball of little fish - with safety in numbers.

      Given the ability to program to monitor the stream of data, it's not a perfect analogy, but for now it's probably close enough.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi John,

        The predator with the full belly is the one that picks on a specific target. And usually the specific target is a straggler or somehow different than the others.
        Or the one that uses his tail to create water pressure that stuns a section - and then picks them off.

        Or the ones that use teamwork and create an ever shrinking circular wall of bubbles to encase the group while also spooking them and manouvering them towards the barrier that is the surface - or alternatively towards the shore and then uses the team to close off all escape routes.

        It's been said many times that data is the most valuable commodity - not least because it can be sliced and diced many ways and sold over and over. My point is that the temptation is great.

        Many are focussing on the value deriving from 'discovering hot search terms' that they have been looking for/at. Not many are considering that based on the type of usage expected, the value may lie in identifying what a large group of IMers are searching for, then isolating and considering the markets that none of them are searching/extracting data for.

        In other words, we don't care what type of plankton our bait ball is consuming, we care about the type that they are not, of which there may be an untapped abundance.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see why Traffic Travis owners would even need to 'steal' keywords from users. They have the technology, they could just run a dictionary at Google and find all the niches they could ever need.
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  • Hi everyone

    Just a quick post to let you know that we've updated our EULA to be more explicit. There's still a little wiggle room in there to keep us out of those pickles, but I hope it goes some way to easing your concerns. You should see the new agreement in the update we pushed out today.

    If you have any concerns like this in future, you can email them directly to our friendly and good looking support team.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      Hi everyone

      Just a quick post to let you know that we've updated our EULA to be more explicit. There's still a little wiggle room in there to keep us out of those pickles, but I hope it goes some way to easing your concerns. You should see the new agreement in the update we pushed out today.

      If you have any concerns like this in future, you can email them directly to our friendly and good looking support team.
      You do realize you're ruining a lot of good fun here, don't you?
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      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      Just a quick post to let you know that we've updated our EULA to be more explicit. There's still a little wiggle room in there to keep us out of those pickles, but I hope it goes some way to easing your concerns. You should see the new agreement in the update we pushed out today.
      LOL, I was just coming here to post this.

      3.2 Transfer of Data

      The Software may from time to time transmit the data collected and generated through your use of the Software (such as search results and keyword and other rankings, but not information that can identify you) to Traffic Travis, Affilorama and to our sister companies for the purposes of optimising the Software and providing related services. You grant Traffic Travis and Affilorama a perpetual, irrevocable, fully paid-up, non-exclusive licence to store and use such data for these purposes.
      Emphasis mine. The emphasis pretty much sums up the changes; they don't mean much if you think there's a conspiracy theory, but they do cover some bases that should make more reasonable people feel better.

      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author jdenc
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        LOL, I was just coming here to post this.



        Emphasis mine. The emphasis pretty much sums up the changes; they don't mean much if you think there's a conspiracy theory, but they do cover some bases that should make more reasonable people feel better.

        I think it's a good change and their response has ensured that very soon they will be adding at least one new customer.

        I still like the T shirt idea though.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Personally, I just can't stop giggling about this keyword.



          I'm not going after this niche, myself. You're welcome to, if you'd like.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
            This thread has been awesome. The OP posted his concerns. Some disagreed. Some agreed. He took some flack but bottom line TT's terms concerned him and others. And that's fine and thank your for bringing it up.

            Then affilorama comes here to explain and takes the feedback to update their user agreements.

            I hadn't used their tools before but I'll go check it out now. You can tell this is a company that listens to customers even non-customers who are using their free version.

            Even if some still won't like the changes to EULA this thread and it's effects have been pretty cool all-around.

            And the debating didn't even turn too nasty as usually happens with big threads like this one.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
              Same here

              Very impressed with the responsefrom Affilorama and will be checking this tool out for myself.

              Showed how concerns should be addressed

              Kim

              Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

              This thread has been awesome. The OP posted his concerns. Some disagreed. Some agreed. He took some flack but bottom line TT's terms concerned him and others. And that's fine and thank your for bringing it up.

              Then affilorama comes here to explain and takes the feedback to update their user agreements.

              I hadn't used their tools before but I'll go check it out now. You can tell this is a company that listens to customers even non-customers who are using their free version.

              Even if some still won't like the changes to EULA this thread and it's effects have been pretty cool all-around.

              And the debating didn't even turn too nasty as usually happens with big threads like this one.
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              • Profile picture of the author veeco
                i think most SEO/SEM provider tracked what their user doing.. that's their goldmine isn't?..even they not clearly state in their TOS.. they have capability to do this.. this the fact you can't deny. their cons would be too much info loaded in their database...

                i believe opportunity is everywhere.. there are enough 'cakes' to share..
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

                Very impressed with the responsefrom Affilorama and will be checking this tool out for myself.
                Lesson to be taken away from this: handling a problem gracefully in the public eye is some freakin' awesome advertisement.

                Yesterday, I had heard of Traffic Travis, but had no real interest in it. Thanks to the discussion here, I ended up downloading it last night, barely five minutes before the update went out.

                I don't do much keyword research, and for me, the end-all tool looked to be Market Samurai. So I had resolved the whole keyword question with "when I have $200 to throw at it, I'll buy MS." And that was the end of it, until yesterday.

                Now I've got TT on my system. What do you think... will I want to protect my investment of time with this tool when I have money to throw at keyword research software?

                Survey says "hell yeah."
                Signature
                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author jdenc
              Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

              This thread has been awesome. The OP posted his concerns. Some disagreed. Some agreed. He took some flack but bottom line TT's terms concerned him and others. And that's fine and thank your for bringing it up.

              Then affilorama comes here to explain and takes the feedback to update their user agreements.

              I hadn't used their tools before but I'll go check it out now. You can tell this is a company that listens to customers even non-customers who are using their free version.

              Even if some still won't like the changes to EULA this thread and it's effects have been pretty cool all-around.

              And the debating didn't even turn too nasty as usually happens with big threads like this one.
              I downloaded the free version after they made the change. Great tool which I will recommend. And when I am making some money I will switch to the paid tool. They definitely made a customer and an advertiser with their responsiveness to our concerns.
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    • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
      Originally Posted by affilorama-portal View Post

      Hi everyone

      Just a quick post to let you know that we've updated our EULA to be more explicit. There's still a little wiggle room in there to keep us out of those pickles, but I hope it goes some way to easing your concerns. You should see the new agreement in the update we pushed out today.

      If you have any concerns like this in future, you can email them directly to our friendly and good looking support team.
      Looks good Fara. Thanks for taking out the "without limitation" clause and addressing the concerns some of us had.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daedric
    That's a bummer! I've used this tool before and didn't know that I have info sent to outsider!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    Completely agreed, Alan. Affilorama walks away from this thread looking like rockstars.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mo Muller
    Thanks for the heads up.
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  • Profile picture of the author donb01
    this is great info, i'm not involved with it but definately a reason why i frequent these forums.

    Thanks for the heads up
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  • Profile picture of the author JayPeete
    There are many others out there just like Traffic Travis.

    You just have to decide what is acceptable and what is not.

    The biggest problem is that most people don't even read the EULA.
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    • Profile picture of the author Organic Chem
      You know, I grew very skeptical when it seem as though there was a new version every single time I started the program. How could this be - the darn thing is free! I knew there had to be a hidden agenda. Sorry Mr. Ling, you have now lost my trust. This program given as part of a purchase of Gauher Chaudry's PPC Formula. I am now skeptical of him too. This is downright theft. Period. Gaining access to user's data for whatever reason (yeah cacheing, blah blah) is not cool.

      Good catch and thank you to the original discoverer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
        Originally Posted by Organic Chem View Post

        You know, I grew very skeptical when it seem as though there was a new version every single time I started the program. How could this be - the darn thing is free! I knew there had to be a hidden agenda. Sorry Mr. Ling, you have now lost my trust. This program given as part of a purchase of Gauher Chaudry's PPC Formula. I am now skeptical of him too. This is downright theft. Period. Gaining access to user's data for whatever reason (yeah cacheing, blah blah) is not cool.

        Good catch and thank you to the original discoverer.
        Did you read any of their responses? Or only the 1st post?

        Before dropping the hammer, you should really hear their side of the story in the subsequent replies.
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  • Profile picture of the author avatar103
    "You are not the next internet genius. Nobody is spying on you. They don't care. There are twelve million people out there researching the same old crap every day, and you're not the shining beacon of intelligence in the crowd. You're just another one of them. Your ideas are not mind-blowing or ground-shaking by any stretch of the imagination. On the off chance that the people from Traffic Travis get your keyword research, do you know what they are going to do with it?

    Not a damn thing.

    So they have made good and sure that you can't sue them for this stupid crap, because they know all too well that every internet marketer on the planet thinks HIS niche is somehow DIFFERENT and he is about to be RICH... until he has competition, and then it's all his competition's fault that his stupid idea was, well, stupid - just like theirs."


    Thats not actually true, people do spy on sites and take advantage of low competition as i do it all the time through MS. I got the pro version on TT and thats one program i will be uninstalling. If the bigger boys can screw a load of smaller sites up by having the data through TT then people who have smaller niches, me included need to protect our income and data.

    FFS you only have to look at flippa and when someone trys to sell a site and posts thier data then a million other sites are duplicated to compete with it. ( opps thats what i do ).

    content is not king but your data is
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by avatar103 View Post

      Thats not actually true, people do spy on sites
      I never said they don't. I said they don't spy on YOU.

      Is there some particular person you follow around and spy on, so you can get all his keywords and niches?

      Of course not. That would be stupid. You'd have to be an idiot to do that.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Super Affiliate
    Like Fara said from Affilorama, I think you're blowing things out of the proportion. Even if you were right about them transmitting the info, do you know how many Traffic Travis users out there? Just imagine there are 1000 users and they do 3 searches a day. Then it's 3000 searches a day. Who can keep up with all these data? How many employees you gotta have to go through one day worth of searches and find what is profitable and rankable and what is not? I think we should be just thankful for the free software not trying to damage their reputation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    perfectly fair anyway if its free...they should just have an upgrade that says buy a licence and we wont use your data
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Well, here's something to ponder...

    You get hundreds of users on Traffic Travis basically doing the PPC testing for you. It's a 100% win for you if you use the data being generated by your users to only run PPC campaigns that are proven to have successful attributes. It's like having insider information on what the market is doing without a loss on your part.

    Maybe you're not using the information you collect in that way... but maybe you are?

    Imagine, having TT used to uncover niches from its users as they spend their money testing PPC campaigns, then you sell that information back to the users in the form of a new coaching program... They start making money and are thrilled so they tell their marketing friends about your program and the rest is history.

    Or let's say you have marketing buddies who want to launch a new PPC program but don't have any proof to back up their exaggerated claims. You digg into your users data, find a solid campaign, give that info to your buddies and they run with it, creating the proof they need to back up their wild claims. It's the old adage of "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine"...

    Or maybe I'm just watching too many Rubicon Episodes...

    Just sayin'
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Jackson
    Thanks for this! I was so close to actually getting it...

    Never thought id see the day when something in disclaimer would actually mess you up.

    Oh wait... There WAS Facebook - Since they own all your personal information since it's on their website. Bet you didn't know that now did you?
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  • Profile picture of the author MassiveMarketer
    Thanks for sharing this. I'm guilty of not reading the terms and I guess this is one of the reasons why I should. I've used Traffic Travis a couple of times. Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author gldmeier
    thanks for the warning. I almost never read the details of these things. I get bored and confused quickly of them and dont really understand their gibberish they write. It is all meant to confuse..
    I was considering registering for travis, so now I will reconsider. thanks again
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by gldmeier View Post

      thanks for the warning. I almost never read the details of these things. I get bored and confused quickly of them and dont really understand their gibberish they write. It is all meant to confuse..
      I was considering registering for travis, so now I will reconsider. thanks again
      From your response it doesn't appear you read all the posts in a thread either.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jody_W
    LOL, I just stumbled on this thread and have to say that it's HUGELY entertaining! The best part is the people who clearly just read the first post and jumped on the thread to share their thanks for warning them of the evil that is Traffic Travis.

    I have TT Pro, love it, and intend to continue using it. I use Micro Niche Finder too, so maybe James Jones can take Mark Ling out for a drink on all the money the two of them are going to make on my keywords.

    :::::looking over my shoulder to see if CDarklock is lurking back there trying to steal my keywords and niches too::::
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  • Profile picture of the author Vishal Burns
    Need to read the fine print now onwards!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author socialbookmark
    I am using anitvirus and firewall on my PC and i have not seen any error or warning from them. are you sure about it?
    Do you mean when Traffic Travis want to check for updates and license it sends information to it's server?
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by gldmeier View Post

      thanks for the warning. I almost never read the details of these things. I get bored and confused quickly of them and dont really understand their gibberish they write. It is all meant to confuse..
      I was considering registering for travis, so now I will reconsider. thanks again
      I always get a kick out of people who say that EULAs and TOS pages are written to be confusing. Actually, the confusion is a byproduct of attempting to do the exact opposite.

      The lawyers who write those statements are trying to make them both so all-encompassing and precise that other lawyers can't misinterpret them. Look at the course catalog for a good law school. You'll find a minimum of one term spent just on vocabulary.
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  • Profile picture of the author jacksonlin
    I use Traffic Travis.

    I love it.

    But for you guys. I wouldn't recommend it.

    Stop using it I tell you.

    Let me use it, but you stay away, because it is bad.

    Haha

    I love the idiots who read the title of the thread, and then miss all the subsequent posts and then thank the original poster about notifying them of TT's evil and leaving. I mean, do these people feel heroic after they just show the world how ignorant they are?

    Plus, the initial poster was making an ALLEGATION and people just take it for face value and make up their minds already.

    Genius! Truly!
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Although this is pretty much resolved, just thought I'd maybe post in a tidbit
      for especially the newbies who read this thread.

      With how things are going online, it's safe to assume that whatever you post
      or search will be saved by whatever service you're using. Be it Google, Traffic
      Travis, etc., any one of them will save anything you've looked up using their
      tools.

      Obviously don't use them if you don't feel comfortable using their service/s to
      make an online search. Unfortunately you're bound to find many (if not all of
      them) doing the same thing and having similar or same legal agreements.

      Trying to keep it real. Thanks.
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      David

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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I was going to give you specifics, but IF YOU ONLY KNEW! It is SO easy for everyone to get this info! HECK, now that I think about it, maybe THAT is why that now "worthless" domain name was bought. The one that SO MANY sent traffic to.

    Steve
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