Can you help with this question of ethics?

30 replies
Recently I was listening to a call about copywriting. They were talking about the principle of taking something away, or fear of loss as a tool to close the sale. I don't have a problem with that on it's face.

One of the people (a very well respected and famous web guru) told a story about when he used to be in sales, if he was having trouble getting the prospect to make the final decision, he would have another sales person come over and pretend to have a customer for that "last one" of the product.

This kind of tactic makes me very uncomfortable. In fact I'll give you a different example.

I sold used cars for about 3 months. One part of the job I had trouble with was the "stories." They had a story that you would deliver in order to soften the blow of the trade. It went something like this...

"Last week we had a car in like yours. It had a few more miles, wasn't quite as nice. We gave them (INSERT INSULTING LOW OFFER), was that about what you were thinking."

This is a lie, as a point of fact. It's not a big lie, but it's a lie and I had trouble delivering it.

My question is this. Am I in the minority when it comes to being uncomfortable with telling these stories, or using a bit of manipulation within a sales letter?

Put another way - Where do you draw the line?

I have no doubt that these techniques work at least within the short term. Part of this has to do with not getting caught. People may be suspicious about a technique like this, but they're unlikely to actually call you on it.

Maybe I'm just too sensitive about this issue.
#ethics #question
  • Profile picture of the author mattalways
    I'm the same way. I can't write sales copy, or any of that crap. It's just not me. I have a hard time just "bending the truth".

    No doubt I could be making a killing if I could just not care. I think there are very few of us. I have dealt with enough people to know that the whole world is out to screw you. It's the only way to really get ahead.
    Signature

    Quit wasting your money! If you need a website, get me to do it right! I'll probably even do it for less! Design/Development/Software, I'm your guy! matt@snidge.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184702].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Justinfm
      Originally Posted by mattalways View Post

      No doubt I could be making a killing if I could just not care. I think there are very few of us. I have dealt with enough people to know that the whole world is out to screw you. It's the only way to really get ahead.
      I imagine you can be 100% honest and sell. I do it in person. I don't use any sales gimmicks when I'm selling web design, and my close rate is like 80%.

      I'm less concerned with how it effects me as far as how I write copy, and more I'm just wondering how other people feel about this kind of thing. I have to say, I lost a little bit of respect for this marketing guy when he was talking about this sales tactic, and unlike other things they had talked about, he didn't qualify it with... " I wouldn't do that today..."
      Signature

      2 hours + $50 = 1 full 40 hour work week - http://www.MultiProfitability.com
      How does that work? With Cloning of course. Watch the free videos at the url above.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184726].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Rob Hall
        Happens all the time this, especially with used cars salesman as you say.

        I remember back when I was purchasing my first used car. When we were mulling over the decision the guy said "We had an old guy this morning come in and take it for a test drive, he said he'll probably pop back in later".

        Now obviously this could have been true and there's not an easy way of finding out, so even though you know the tactic, there's still something being triggered in your head.

        If someone ever finds out that it was all fictional, then it's an instant loss of credibility.
        Signature

        Create an automated news aggregation website with PHP RSS Reader, click here.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184763].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mattalways View Post

      I'm the same way. I can't write sales copy, or any of that crap. It's just not me. I have a hard time just "bending the truth".

      No doubt I could be making a killing if I could just not care. I think there are very few of us. I have dealt with enough people to know that the whole world is out to screw you. It's the only way to really get ahead.
      There aren't "very few" of "us" and the whole world is NOT out to screw you. There are plenty of ethical marketers right on this forum.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184861].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Samuel Baker
    That fear of loss etc is what gets the $ at the end of the day; so for some people the ethic/moral is just non-existent when they are creating sales pages / trying to sell something. As per your car example.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184767].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author PaulSch
      Originally Posted by Samuel Baker View Post

      That fear of loss etc is what gets the $ at the end of the day; so for some people the ethic/moral is just non-existent when they are creating sales pages / trying to sell something. As per your car example.
      I always find that I have a big problem with 'it's going to rise in price soon' or 'there are only x copies' when they are so obviously untrue.
      I put into my sales pages that this price will remain at $xx until (say) 5th August, after which time it will be $xx, and then on the 6th August change the price.
      Signature

      Get FREE Access To Over 180 Webmaster Training Videos here. Did I mention they are totally free?

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184805].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Edk
    In my opinion one should tell 'an acceptable truth'. Ways different from a lie. If you're not comfortable with it, don't do it. In fact it's better not to lie to poeple like that. On a 'biter-bit' basis.

    We're too vulnerable to being stung in IM and if you pull that kind of stunt, you might not get called on it, but you'll likely be stung in turn.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184787].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
    If you're questioning it, chances are it's against YOUR ethics.


    Just realize that not all people operate under the same ethics and morals.



    Some people are actually deluded enough to believe in their own lies, and thus have ethical boundaries that come in every shade of gray.

    I once talked to a guy that was selling mortgages that lied every chance he got. He rationalized it as "If I don't sell this person a mortgage, no matter HOW I go about doing it, they're going to be homeless... So, I'm actually doing them a disservice by letting them walk away"


    In fact, that might have been the mentality of a few too many mortgage brokers... now look at our situation.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184799].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      If you're questioning it, chances are it's against YOUR ethics.
      I agree with this. Listen to that inner voice!

      Not only will you feel better being consistent with your conscience, most of the time when you try to do something that goes against your ethical principles, it's not convincing because the prospective buyer unconsciously picks up on the hesitation, doubt or lack of conviction.

      Marcia Yudkin
      Signature
      Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184807].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
      Lying is lying, whichever way you try to dress it up. You can always rationalise it in some way if that helps you, but you still know you're lying at the end of the day.
      Signature
      San

      The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
      Pay me to play. :) Order a Custom Cover today.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184810].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ArtofBlog
    Mr2Monster hit the nail on the head in my opinion. Ethics are defined not only by society but by individuals, and your happen to be above average. That might make a job selling stuff online a lot harder. At the very minimum, a lot of creativity will be necessary.

    The good news is that many people can smell BS a mile away, and will appreciate honesty. Try appealing to those people.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184880].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author thetruth23
    I understand where you're coming from as I've had fairly similar concerns in the past.

    I do kind of think thats just the way sales works. You do, of course, have to draw the line somewhere, and every salesmen/marketer has that line drawn at different levels.

    It's certainly an individual choice.

    Perhaps all you need is a slight mindset shift...

    Consider a used car sales man, perhaps selling a used car priced in the thousands. Most probably overpriced. To 'lie' to the customer in a way that would make the salesman feel uncomfortable or concerned at their tactic of sale, would probably be because he didn't really believe in the product (the car) and didn't believe the customer was being served value for money.

    If you yourself were to sell an information product, for example, and you knew that if a customer bought the product and took action that the product would deliver on it's promise and bring the customer a result...would you feel as bad if you 'exaggerated' the sales letter?

    For me, in the first example I would feel a little bad and not really like doing that too often.

    However, in the second example, even though I may have hyped up my sales page, as long as I felt super confident that I was offering the customer tons and tons of value, an enthical conflict wouldn't even cross my mind.

    Maybe you need to be more confident in what your selling...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2184916].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Justinfm
      Originally Posted by thetruth23 View Post

      If you yourself were to sell an information product, for example, and you knew that if a customer bought the product and took action that the product would deliver on it's promise and bring the customer a result...would you feel as bad if you 'exaggerated' the sales letter?

      For me, in the first example I would feel a little bad and not really like doing that too often.

      However, in the second example, even though I may have hyped up my sales page, as long as I felt super confident that I was offering the customer tons and tons of value, an enthical conflict wouldn't even cross my mind.

      Maybe you need to be more confident in what your selling...
      You make a very interesting point.

      This sounds like the "ends justify the means" concept. It seems to make sense on paper, but then you have to ask the question. Who is making the determination. When you "know" that your product will provide great value to the end user, you are substituting your judgment for that person's.

      Furthermore with an information product, the value comes when the user actually takes action on the information. If the person reading the copy is not in place where he/she can take action, but instead buys the special offer just because it is limited, what immediate value is that person getting.

      I know I've done that with a few WSO's. I'm interested in marketing and I see something that I'm afraid won't be around or around at a certain price, so I buy it, even though I don't have the slightest idea when/if I'll use the information in the book.

      Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying things like OTO's are unethical. I just think it might be worth while to think about it. If nothing else, some of these techniques are starting to get less effective.

      I know that now when I see a one time offer, I feel fairly confident that I could get back to it if I wanted to. They don't carry as much power anymore, and still I'm looking at the actual offer, and what I get.

      I wonder if people will get burnt out on these tactics that push our buttons so hard.
      Signature

      2 hours + $50 = 1 full 40 hour work week - http://www.MultiProfitability.com
      How does that work? With Cloning of course. Watch the free videos at the url above.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2186108].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author thetruth23
        Originally Posted by Justinfm View Post

        You make a very interesting point.

        This sounds like the "ends justify the means" concept. It seems to make sense on paper, but then you have to ask the question. Who is making the determination. When you "know" that your product will provide great value to the end user, you are substituting your judgment for that person's.

        Furthermore with an information product, the value comes when the user actually takes action on the information. If the person reading the copy is not in place where he/she can take action, but instead buys the special offer just because it is limited, what immediate value is that person getting.

        I know I've done that with a few WSO's. I'm interested in marketing and I see something that I'm afraid won't be around or around at a certain price, so I buy it, even though I don't have the slightest idea when/if I'll use the information in the book.

        Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying things like OTO's are unethical. I just think it might be worth while to think about it. If nothing else, some of these techniques are starting to get less effective.

        I know that now when I see a one time offer, I feel fairly confident that I could get back to it if I wanted to. They don't carry as much power anymore, and still I'm looking at the actual offer, and what I get.

        I wonder if people will get burnt out on these tactics that push our buttons so hard.
        I understand where you're coming from.

        And you're right, hyperthetical-me 'knowing' IS substituting my opinion for the customers. But thats probably because I'm confident in the product and furthermore its backed by a genuine gaurantee. So if it turns out not to be valued, the customer can request a refund.

        Anyway, I think my overall point was...

        Most people know whether or not they are an ethical person. And if they have any doubts about it then perhaps there is something wrong with an aspect of what they're doing.

        But as long as you're happy within yourself that you're being as genuine to the customer with what you have to offer (and yes, in terms of the result) then you can have overall peace of mind and not worry about being unethical.

        Just don't go out there looking to screw people over.

        Serve your customer for whatever they are looking for.

        If your product isn't right, then they shouldnt buy it.

        If they happen to buy it because they 'thought' it was right, but it later wasn't, serve them by offering a refund.

        For me, the bottom line is delivering tons and tons of value to the customer.

        It's a vague statement, but if that can be done the person delivering that value shouldn't have anything to worry about.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189264].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author CarolThomas
          At the end of the day most people get caught out if they're lying or exaggerating through their selling techniques - albeit in person or through a sales copy.

          If you're an honest, ethical person then whatever you are offering the customer should be something that you endorse and KNOW that it is OFFERING VALUE. That way that customer will come back to you time and time again.

          What is the point of lying to your customers as then your reputation is gone and eventually no-one will listen to what your saying or trying to sell.

          It comes down to TRUST and (like you say) ETHICS.

          I was brought up with family morals and values.
          Help others and the rest will follow.

          Have a great day everyone. This is a great forum
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189324].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JimmyS
    Everything can be justified with the right reason but lying is lying. It might work for your business in a short time but later on people will start to realize that their decision was somehow manipulated by persuasive statement brought about by lies. And when that time comes, your credibility to do business will be at risk.

    Well, that is how I see it.....
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189397].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Justinfm View Post

    This kind of tactic makes me very uncomfortable.
    It's called "lying."

    Ethical people don't do it.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189428].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author golden2010
      Whether it's outright lying or totally exaggerating it's unethical.

      All those long sales copies that begin with a sob story about how they went from beach bum to millionaire is a complete turnoff for me. I don't buy their sob story and whether it's true or not, I don't find it completely ethical.

      You have something to sell me, then sell it to me. I don't want to know about your fancy cars and big mansions. I don't care that if I don't buy it today, the price will go up tomorrow. I don't care if you only have 3 copies left. Just be upfront, tell me how I can benefit and leave all the personal garbage out

      If you have a good product and you can convince me that I too will make money, then that's all the sales copy you need. Don't bore me with you rags to riches stories. Most people don't believe them any.

      Honesty is still the best policy.

      golden2010
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189502].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
    Banned
    The car example is just a blatant lie, I don't think there's really a question of ethics there.

    As far as raising the price after a certain amount are sold and all that, that's not a huge deal as long as you follow through. Although I'm not a big fan of the whole "We had some returns, so it's your last chance". While that may be true that they've had returns, it's so clearly part of the formula that it still strikes me as being a little shady.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189488].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
    I am very, very uncomfortable using tactics like this in my own marketing. It makes me sick to my stomach that people do use them. However, I do understand why. You can get so hungry for that sale and you're not really "hurting" anyone...

    Marketing ethics can get very grey...

    I choose to err on the side of brightness
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189545].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author theemperor
      I think in the car sales situation the client is more vunerable as they have the pressure of the salesman in their ear! A web page can be closed at any time.

      It is a grey area though. Surely any earnings screenshot is a 'lie' because it makes the implication that you will earn that much (or somewhere near that amount) if you buy the product, which isn't true. I have never seen an earnings screenshot that said directly below "You may not earn anything like this, you need to put in hard work and determination to get to this level and even then it isn't guaranteed".

      Unfortunately I think some degree of exageration or manipulation is built into most sales letters. I guess the money back guarantee helps take some of the moral issue out of it though.
      Signature
      Learn to code faster, and remove the roadblocks. Get stuff done and shipped! PM me and I can help you with programming tutoring, specialising in Web and the following languages: Javascript ~ HTML ~ CSS ~ React ~ JQuery ~ Typescript ~ NodeJS ~ C#.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189583].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    This is not a question of ethics, it's an issue of HACKERY.

    Sales hacks abound - serious closers are rare gems.

    There's an awful lot of macho bull**** that comes with the
    turf in sales... a mindset of beating a prospect into submission.

    A serious closer doesn't beat the prospect over the head, the
    prospect gives himself over willingly, even excitedly.

    Why? Because the closer understands the deep desires and
    wants of the prospect and the value of what he or she sells.

    The closer is able to instill the insatiable desire to obtain
    that value by squeezing the fear gland, the greed gland, the
    pride gland, the guilt gland... all of the emotional and rational
    reasons why the prospect MUST HAVE what they are selling.

    NONE of that comes from lying - it comes from understanding
    the customer and the product better than the next guy or gal.

    Translate that process to the written word and you have an
    explosively potent piece of sales copy.

    Now, let's get back to the original point of the OP...

    ...The Take Away.

    The take-away is what pushes the buyer off the fence.

    It's what forces a prospect to MAKE A DECISION.

    And there's no reason why it cannot be employed with
    a whistle-clean conscience.

    A lie is a lie. Taking something away from a prospect
    is simply a powerful selling strategy at work. There's
    nothing inherently unethical about telling your prospect
    that they have to act NOW - or lose the opportunity.

    Brian
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189579].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BCJason
    "This kind of tactic makes me very uncomfortable."

    I think you answered your question.
    You really don't need these old school tactics.
    Some people are totally comfortable using these tactics but..
    A lie is a lie.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189712].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
    Originally Posted by Justinfm View Post

    Put another way - Where do you draw the line?
    Personally, I draw the line at lying. There's nothing wrong with using these sales techniques if you use them honestly, in my opinion. It's when you lie about it that I won't go there.

    Using your example of the guru having someone come over and pretend they had someone interested in the last one, I wouldn't pretend. I'd just tell the customer there's only one left and they've been selling well, so it may not last long.

    Not quite as much pressure to buy, but it still creates that take away effect - and does it without having to lie. It's stuff like that that has created the stereotypical view of "salesmen" (especially used car salesmen).

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189746].message }}
  • I don't know if others will agree on this "what you sow is what you reap" dishonesty will get back with revenge. Though this is a common practice in business world it will not last for sure.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2189810].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
    The very fact that you see these conversations so often in the forums proves that there are quite a few of "us" who don't like that sort of tactic.

    Are there quite a few of "them" also? Of course there are, but I choose to do business with "us." I think in the long run, being ethical never hurt anyone's business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2194823].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author benjamindh
    I write a lot of sales copy myself... I just tell it how it is... I am not a fan of the over hyped copy if I am honest....

    I like 'to the point copy' that tells it how it is...

    You can often tell who is faking it and who is legitimate by the stories they tell lol...

    Ben Hulme from the UK
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2194845].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I think in marketing you can be excited, enthusiatic, and emphasis the positive without trying to fool people.

    I don't ever lie and I try not to exaggerate. I also don't use any of the deceptive and misleading "tricks".

    Maybe the big hitters get more sales and signups but I can sleep at night.

    I have to say it is very refreshing to see the many posts in support of honesty.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2194883].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    Here's the thing. Being a really, really good salesperson has nothing to do with lying. If you have to lie to sell then you are in fact a very poor salesperson.

    Truly effective sales is all about honesty.

    It is about communicating to a person you know will benefit from a purchase exactly what benefits it will bring into their life.

    If a potential buyer really is a good match for a product, be it a used car or anything else, there should be no difficulty for a good salesperson in illuminating the reasons.

    If someone has to resort to BSing not only is it unethical, it also betrays a lack of professional mastery.

    Don't think that sales or copywriting is about being dishonest. This is the opposite from the truth.

    Sales and copywriting is about understanding people, understanding products and services, and having powerful communication skills that build a link between the two.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2194885].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author OLOORE
    If you make up your mind you ain't going to lie, then you've said very categorically, you will not go in the path, that a lot tread. Once you draw this line, make a decision that
    you will certainly look for other ways, to sell your product. If you look hard enough and brainstorm, you'll be suprised how many other ways will show up.
    Just keep your mind on the issues and the solutions will begin to rear their heads. Weldone.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2195070].message }}

Trending Topics