Is it really better to be rude to your customers?

286 replies
This guy has seriously gotten under my skin, and I need to vent to someone, so I figured I'd vent here...

I had the unfortunate experience of purchasing a WSO from a particular warrior. The WSO product itself was bullsh*t, but introduced me to a new webinar service with fabulous features. In fact, I was so impressed with the features of the service, that I PM'd the warrior to ask a couple of questions (he stated he was seeking JV partners, and I thought I could send a LOT of business his way). Here's the question I asked (copied from the PM I sent him):

"Just purchased, and have a few questions...

1. Does [webinar service] work with mac computers? (it's not addressed on the website).


2. It's obvious you own the [webinar service]. Is it a software that you developed yourself, or did you private label something else? (I ask because I tried calling the number on the webiste to get the question about Mac's answered, and got a machine. I love the features, but am very concerned about getting quick support."


Here's what this guy responded:

"I use a mac. There is no phone support. If you want your money back we are happy to give it. I don't want any customers who are upset, I have plenty of good ones that are my JV partners which is what I'm looking for."

OK, it's obvious English is a 2nd language for this guy, so - in spite of the fact that another warrior posted on the WSO thread that he was very rude, I decided to give the dude the benefit of the doubt. So I wrote:

"You have not answered my concern about [webinar service]. It sounds great but if there's a problem, how quick is support?

You've already stated there's no phone support. So, if someone has a webinar and something isn't working properly, how quickly can they get help??? THAT is what I'm trying to find out.

I am an interested customer."

The rude dude just doesn't get it.... he's either not reading the message, or he really can't understand English, or he's just really obnoxious. Here's what he replied (his FULL response):

"I said there is no phone support."

Normally, I would just wipe the sh*t off my hands and move on at this point. But, the service looked really good, so I hung in there and tried to make myself understood.

=>>>> (hang in there... there really IS a point to this story).

I replied:

"Right. So, if someone needs help with their webinar, HOW do they get support? And how quickly can they get it?"

Here's his response (he's referring to the training product I purchased thru his WSO and STILL not providing me with the info I'm asking about the webinar service):

"There is no phone support, watch the modules and implement as it's instructed, if you can't get a refund. I don't sell babysitting or support etc... If you want that there is 100 other webinar systems, I don't claim to be the best or anything, I'm surprised you purchased this, ask for a refund there is 30 days you can get it. I don't think this system is for you. One of the others ones will serve you much better. I'm not trying to be rude I'm just trying to tell you I don't like support I like people to follow instruction and implement, I made videos showing how to do it and tons of people have done it WITHOUT SUPPORT. I know that is not for everyone, but I HAVE THE RIGHT TO OPERATE THIS WAY. I know it's not for you and most people, that is fine it's my right. Please ask for a refund my staff is happy to give it. "

Since this guy - who either doesn't understand English, or doesn't understand good customer service - runs the webinar service... at this point I decided to wash my hands of it.

=>>>> (Almost to the point of the story).

I wrote back:

"Just give me a refund. For the record, I've been holding webinars since the technology first became available. I don't need training on how to use a webinar or how to hold one.

I was VERY interested in being a JV partner... the prices were good, the features were GREAT. Unfortunately, you're treating me like I'm a pest... when, in actuality, I've been online since 1998, have a great reputation, and a huge list.

However, before I promote anything, I need to make sure people can get support. It sounds like you're saying that, if something goes wrong with your webinar software, then it's the customer's problem.. you don't provide any support. "


I then submitted a refund request to his staff, with the caveat that - if I didn't get the refund within 24 hours - I would perform a chargeback (I don't usually get this aggressive, but I didn't trust this guy as far as I could throw him).

Shortly after, I got another PM from the rude dude:

"Wow, my staff just told me what you wrote and how your threatened us with a charge-back. They are issuing you a refund as we speak, please go find some other company to work with, we are not a match!"

I responded:

"No kidding. If you want to sell products, maybe you should treat your customers with a little respect."

=>>>> And, here it is... the point of the story!

This is what he replied to me (UNBELIEVABLE!):

"I disagree with you. I teach my students to get rid of 10% (at least) of customers to make more money. I don't think you would agree with that philosophy. But I teach it for years now at 8 or 9 of my last bootcamps.

The reason I came to america is I can say or do what ever I want! Those who don't like have the freedom to pick somoene else they like! I know 1000+ people hate me, I'm fine with that!"

Hey rude dude... make that 1001+ people who hate you. I'll happily count myself among that group.

According to this guy, after 12 years of running a successful internet based business, I've been doing it all wrong! I've been NICE and respectful to my customers. I've provided support for my products. I've even (heaven forbid!) treated my customers like they are human beings!!!!

I'm amazed that this guy thinks just because he's in America and CAN say anything he wants, that he WILL say anything he wants... and thinks it won't come back to bite him in the rear end.

So warriors... what do YOU think?

It is better to be rude and obnoxious, and not provide any support at all for your products and services, and get rid of 10% of your customers? ... Is it really a BETTER business practice?
#customers #rude
  • Profile picture of the author JennSpencerIM
    Yikes sounds like he has some kind of attitude problem..not cool at all. I'm the exact OPPOSITE way with my customers...super duper kind. And many times they end up apologizing to me! I know there are people who say just refund and move on if someone asks a question because they don't want to deal with them but I really don't think anyone should be treated like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    lol ... that's a classic. He obviously does not want to be "bothered" with customers ... just sell and move on. Refund was the only real option he gave you.

    It would probably be no use in leaving a review, as he obviously does not care.
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  • Profile picture of the author lexilexi
    Wow. Stunned.

    He's new to America, so he probably doesn't understand how the legal system works. This is a litigious society, and if he goes around like that, I am sure that it will come back to bite him in the butt.

    Also, people talk. I was always taught that reputation is the most important asset in any business, and to guard it with your life.

    Not only that, but what kind of inner world does someone like that live in? I just hope I never meet him.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Hi Holly,

    It's unfortunate that you had to go through that experience.

    The most difficult but best thing that I've learned is to let go of a negative situation or person, no matter how much it pains me to do so. The emotions of the moment - dealing with someone who has no people skills - can make this the biggest challenge you're ever going to face. It's always worth it to let go though because the stress will hurt you 10 times more than it affects someone who doesn't care about you.

    With that in mind it never pays to be rude and obnoxious, because you're hurting yourself more than anybody else. Do the right thing and it comes back to you in some way, shape or form.

    Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author William Gilreath
    I rarely run into these type to people. All you can do is learn from the situation and always treat your customers with respect even if you are provoke into retaliating.

    William
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  • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
    WOW! That's amazing! I can't even imagine how getting rid of customers is going to help the bottom line. Here's a lesson for him - you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar!
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    • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
      What a strange attitude to have towards his customers!

      I always treat my customers like gold as we all know repeat business / customers are far more profitable

      Thanks for sharing this story BTW
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  • Profile picture of the author jennypitts
    YIKES... Holly, sorry to read that you dealt with that. As far as your question is concerned NO, there is no need to be rude and in the real world it HARDLY ever works. If it has worked for this moron, soon enough it will begin to backfire at him. Just like he said, this IS AMERICA and you do have the freedom of speech, so speak on sister and let your voice be heard. Tell EVERYONE how big of a jerk this guy was and how unprofessional him and his service ARE!!!

    I must say you were rather patient. I probably would not have gone past the second email attempt of me trying to get him to understand. I would have just asked for a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    That's quite a story, Holly. I think you should put the initial post, here, on
    his WSO. Not for him, but for future possible customers so they'll know to
    stay the hell away from him, unless they don't care and want to buy, anyway.

    Possibly offensive comment deleted.

    I think it's a good idea to post it on his WSO.

    Thanks for posting, Holly.

    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      That's quite a story, Holly. I think you should post that entire thread on
      his WSO. Not for him, but for future possible customers so they'll know to
      stay the hell away from him, unless they don't care and want to buy, anyway.

      I've met and worked with a lot of foreigners here in the US. As you can probably
      guess, most are pretty cool and not like that. But I have met a number who
      have that exact attitude: This is a free country, I can do and say what I want,
      and if you don't like it you can get screwed. lol.

      I think it's a good idea to post it on his WSO.

      Thanks for posting, Holly.

      Ken
      I'm going to have to disagree with this one. The guy was completely upfront about the point that he offered no support and that a refund was available. He also issued that refund once requested.

      Was he rude? Absolutely. Was he out of line in his tone? Yes. Would I want to do business with him? no.

      But...

      Has he been misleading about anything? No. Is his product of high quality? According to the OP, yes.

      So while this guy sounds like a royal douche, and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him, airing out laundry about rude emails in his WSO thread (that he paid for) is not a good idea and I'm pretty sure it would be considered against the rules of the board.

      If he was misleading about what his product did, or it didn't work, or he refused to issue a refund, sure. But rude email tone is not a reason to bomb someones WSO.
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      • Profile picture of the author jdenc
        Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

        I'm going to have to disagree with this one. The guy was completely upfront about the point that he offered no support and that a refund was available. He also issued that refund once requested.

        Was he rude? Absolutely. Was he out of line in his tone? Yes. Would I want to do business with him? no.

        But...

        Has he been misleading about anything? No. Is his product of high quality? According to the OP, yes.

        So while this guy sounds like a royal douche, and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him, airing out laundry about rude emails in his WSO thread (that he paid for) is not a good idea and I'm pretty sure it would be considered against the rules of the board.

        If he was misleading about what his product did, or it didn't work, or he refused to issue a refund, sure. But rude email tone is not a reason to bomb someones WSO.
        Then they should act like they have some upbringing. Otherwise people talk. Don't want to see bad stuff about themselves on the forum? Then treat people with a little common decency and respect.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
          Originally Posted by jdenc View Post

          Then they should act like they have some upbringing. Otherwise people talk. Don't want to see bad stuff about themselves on the forum? Then treat people with a little common decency and respect.
          Then people can go talk **** about him on another forum without rules. This forum has rules, and unless I'm mistaken, attacking other Warriors and hanging them publicly isn't allowed.

          I don't see anythign wrong with this thread. No names were named, and it serves as a great example of how sellers shouldn't act.

          But the second this gets dragged into the guys WSO thread the line has been crossed.

          The only thing the guy is guilty of is being rude. It'll hurt him in the long run on its own. But under no circumstances does it warrant torpedoing his WSO thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author jdenc
            Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

            Then people can go talk **** about him on another forum without rules. This forum has rules, and unless I'm mistaken, attacking other Warriors and hanging them publicly isn't allowed.

            I don't see anythign wrong with this thread. No names were named, and it serves as a great example of how sellers shouldn't act.

            But the second this gets dragged into the guys WSO thread the line has been crossed.

            The only thing the guy is guilty of is being rude. It'll hurt him in the long run on its own. But under no circumstances does it warrant torpedoing his WSO thread.
            Oh well maybe now he'll understand that treating people like crap has consequences. A good lesson to learn IMO.
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          • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

            Then people can go talk **** about him on another forum without rules. This forum has rules, and unless I'm mistaken, attacking other Warriors and hanging them publicly isn't allowed.

            I don't see anythign wrong with this thread. No names were named, and it serves as a great example of how sellers shouldn't act.

            But the second this gets dragged into the guys WSO thread the line has been crossed.

            The only thing the guy is guilty of is being rude. It'll hurt him in the long run on its own. But under no circumstances does it warrant torpedoing his WSO thread.
            Actually, maybe YOU should read the rules. Commenting on a WSO within the WSO itself is allowed, and encouraged.
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            • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
              Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

              Actually, maybe YOU should read the rules. Commenting on a WSO within the WSO itself is allowed, and encouraged.
              Maybe YOU should read the thread instead of selectively picking and choosing what you read and respond to.

              Buyers commenting on WSO's in WSO threads is completely allowed, and I agreed with Holly's right to do so. What I disagreed with was the notion of using this thread to torpedo his WSO thread over something that at the very worst was over a case of rudeness.

              I'd suggest you go through the rest of the posts before replying to this.
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              • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
                I just want to clarify something here...

                I did NOT post anything negative on his WSO.

                And, when I started this thread, I did NOT mention his name or username.

                My intention was not to "torpedo" the guy... but simply to blow off some steam and (hopefully) get some warrior input that could help me laugh the experience off (since, for whatever reason, it got under my skin).

                BTW, Bill's video had me laughing so hard, I had no bad feelings left. Thanks Bill!

                Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

                Maybe YOU should read the thread instead of selectively picking and choosing what you read and respond to.

                Buyers commenting on WSO's in WSO threads is completely allowed, and I agreed with Holly's right to do so. What I disagreed with was the notion of using this thread to torpedo his WSO thread over something that at the very worst was over a case of rudeness.

                I'd suggest you go through the rest of the posts before replying to this.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Cat,
              Actually, maybe YOU should read the rules. Commenting on a WSO within the WSO itself is allowed, and encouraged.
              The issue was not the product she bought, but the responses on another one she asked about. Dragging this into a WSO thread would NOT be well-received.


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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

        If he was misleading about what his product did, or it didn't work, or he refused to issue a refund, sure. But rude email tone is not a reason to bomb someones WSO.
        Hi Ryan,

        My intent and suggestion was not to purposely bomb someone's WSO. It really
        was not.

        But Holly is a customer of his WSO, and she is at liberty to post her experiences. I
        made that suggestion so that potential buyers will know and understand, fully, what
        they will be dealing with.

        I do not call him names, of any kind, but if I was looking at buying his product, I would
        certainly want to know that in case I had a question, or problem, and wanted to
        contact him. If I knew there was a high likelihood that he would respond in the manner,
        or similar manner, in which he responded to Holly - I wouldn't buy it.

        And this isn't an ebook or video series we're talking about. As you well know, there's
        a lot riding on these webinars, so it's a bit different in my mind.

        It's my feeling that I would be grateful to know about Holly's experiences if I was
        considering doing business with him.

        No matter what, I would not advocate bombing anyone's WSO on purpose. And if the
        mods feel my comment is inappropriate, it can be deleted, or they can let me know and
        I'll be happy to delete it and issue an apology to the gentleman.

        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
          Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

          Hi Ryan,

          My intent and suggestion was not to purposely bomb someone's WSO. It really
          was not.

          But Holly is a customer of his WSO, and she is at liberty to post her experiences. I
          made that suggestion so that potential buyers will know and understand, fully, what
          they will be dealing with.

          I do not call him names, of any kind, but if I was looking at buying his product, I would
          certainly want to know that in case I had a question, or problem, and wanted to
          contact him. If I knew there was a high likelihood that he would respond in the manner,
          or similar manner, in which he responded to Holly - I wouldn't buy it.

          And this isn't an ebook or video series we're talking about. As you well know, there's
          a lot riding on these webinars, so it's a bit different in my mind.

          It's my feeling that I would be grateful to know about Holly's experiences if I was
          considering doing business with him.

          No matter what, I would not advocate bombing anyone's WSO on purpose. And if the
          mods feel my comment is inappropriate, it can be deleted, or they can let me know and
          I'll be happy to delete it and issue an apology to the gentleman.

          Ken
          No sweat Ken. I agree that Holly has a right as a customer to share her experience, but I feel like a simple "Note: Seller does not offer post-purchase support and was very rude upon inquiry", or something of the like would do.

          Whereas posting this entire thread in the WSO would just seem like airing laundry in an attempt to add insult to injury.

          Cheers
          Ryan
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          • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
            Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

            No sweat Ken. I agree that Holly has a right as a customer to share her experience, but I feel like a simple "Note: Seller does not offer post-purchase support and was very rude upon inquiry", or something of the like would do.

            Whereas posting this entire thread in the WSO would just seem like airing laundry in an attempt to add insult to injury.

            Cheers
            Ryan
            You know.. lol, sorry, I'll edit that as soon as I'm done with this. I meant
            her initial post - not the whole thread. LOL
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          • Profile picture of the author kiopa
            Banned
            No, that's not how the online business world works though. Regardless of industry, if you own an online business, complaints such as this will show up around the internet. Maybe not this drastic, but they will come, regardless of the quality of product and support.

            It's up to you as a business owner to ensure those greviencies (sp) are responded to, and handled in a professional manner. Because no matter what happens, they will come your way. How to respond & manage them is what sets the good businesses apart from the bad ones.

            Just my 2 cents...

            Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

            No sweat Ken. I agree that Holly has a right as a customer to share her experience, but I feel like a simple "Note: Seller does not offer post-purchase support and was very rude upon inquiry", or something of the like would do.

            Whereas posting this entire thread in the WSO would just seem like airing laundry in an attempt to add insult to injury.

            Cheers
            Ryan
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            • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
              Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

              No, that's not how the online business world works though. Regardless of industry, if you own an online business, complaints such as this will show up around the internet. Maybe not this drastic, but they will come, regardless of the quality of product and support.

              It's up to you as a business owner to ensure those greviencies (sp) are responded to, and handled in a professional manner. Because no matter what happens, they will come your way. How to respond & manage them is what sets the good businesses apart from the bad ones.

              Just my 2 cents...
              And that might fly on other sites, but this site has rules. They weren't broken with this thread, but there is a fine line that is easy to cross. This forum is not a place where public hangings are allowed. Read the rules.
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      • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
        Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

        So while this guy sounds like a royal douche, and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him, airing out laundry about rude emails in his WSO thread (that he paid for) is not a good idea and I'm pretty sure it would be considered against the rules of the board.

        If he was misleading about what his product did, or it didn't work, or he refused to issue a refund, sure. But rude email tone is not a reason to bomb someones WSO.
        I'd like to point out that nowhere in this thread do I mention the guy's name nor his username (if anyone out there uses the handle "rude dude" I sincerely apologize...it was NOT you I am a talking about).

        Also, I did not post any comments positive nor negative on his WSO thread because I didn't think it would appropriate.

        And, for those of you worried about maybe mistakenly signing up for this WSO, don't worry. He deleted the thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
          Originally Posted by abundantliving View Post

          I'd like to point out that nowhere in this thread do I mention the guy's name nor his username (if anyone out there uses the handle "rude dude" I sincerely apologize...it was NOT you I am a talking about).

          Also, I did not post any comments positive nor negative on his WSO thread because I didn't think it would appropriate.

          And, for those of you worried about maybe mistakenly signing up for this WSO, don't worry. He deleted the thread.
          Nope I understand. Like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with this thread and it serves as a great example of what not to do as a seller. It's just any further action that I'd be hesitant about.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Holly,

        I can see where a lot of people might feel this was less than they'd like, in terms of the response. Still, I'm having a hard time seeing where the guy was "rude."

        He didn't say or imply anything unpleasant about you. He offered you a refund without being asked, and stated how he prefers to do business. He recognized that his approach is not for everyone, and did it without judgement.

        He basically said, "I do things this way, and I know some people won't care for that. That's okay. If it's not a good fit, I'll give you your money back and we can both look for other people to do business with."

        If we've gotten to the point where that's worth bashing someone publicly, we're in a really nasty place.

        You're not pissed because he was rude and disrespectful, ma'am. He wasn't. He simply didn't give you the response to which you're accustomed.

        Mind you, I wouldn't find that to my tastes, either. But I certainly wouldn't have responded to those emails with threats or a public complaint. Neither is warranted, based on what you've quoted here.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          HypeFree,

          Dude, you really do need to learn to be more tactful. I will defend your right to do business the way you choose, as long as you're honest about it. Just understand that you're asking for trouble by being belligerent.

          The comment about avoiding Holly's products was uncalled for. That one was rude. It also happens to be wrong. Holly's been at this a long time, and she's got a solid, and well earned, reputation.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            [chuckle] This is really interesting.

            Having met and spoken with Holly, I can absolutely believe she was trying to be helpful. And having dealt with people wanting free stuff, I can see where HypeFree (who clearly doesn't know her), arrived at the assumption he did.

            Context and style matter, eh?


            Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            HypeFree,

            Dude, you really do need to learn to be more tactful. I will defend your right to do business the way you choose, as long as you're honest about it. Just understand that you're asking for trouble by being belligerent.

            The comment about avoiding Holly's products was uncalled for. That one was rude. It also happens to be wrong. Holly's been at this a long time, and she's got a solid, and well earned, reputation.


            Paul

            Paul, different cultures are more direct and sometimes that is perceived as rude.

            I am thinking that is what happened with this transaction.

            I lived in Ukraine for a long time and they're very direct. Some people would call it rude but I wouldn't.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Holly,

              My comments in that post were about what was in your original post. Yes, he's been a little rude in this thread.
              I guess I could have kept quiet about the entire thing (I usually do), but I REALLY needed to air things out... as I said, the guy got under my skin.
              Ma'am, if I "aired it out" every time someone here got under my skin, my post count would be in the 25,000 range.

              Thomas,

              The thing I said was rude was his suggestion that people avoid Holly's products, along with the claim that she'd be trouble. I absolutely consider that rude. It was a direct personal attack.

              The rest? I don't really have a problem with it. But then, I prefer direct.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Thomas,

                The thing I said was rude was his suggestion that people avoid Holly's products, along with the claim that she'd be trouble. I absolutely consider that rude. It was a direct personal attack.

                The rest? I don't really have a problem with it. But then, I prefer direct.


                Paul

                I was commenting on the original conversation and not his later comments. Of course, I decided to quote something irrelevant when making that statement. hehe

                I don't look at his comments being any worst then Holly demanding a refund or threatening a chargeback.

                They are both mad and acted childish in that regards.

                I like direct as well but it does rub people the wrong way as you know.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                  Thomas,

                  I thought when she got her money we where all done. I had no intention to post anything anywhere nor do it. I have over 1000 arguments with custoemrs! BUT I NEVER POST THEM LIKE SHE DID

                  Now that she did this, I cna't fight back?

                  HypeFree

                  Fighting back is telling your side of the story. In fact, you did yourself a huge diservice by coming in here and attacking her products.

                  Paul, I and others were already saying we didn't think what you were saying was rude. You were being direct.

                  You just shot yourself in the foot when you actually became rude by attacking her products and telling others not to purchase from her.

                  I have a hard time not fighting when someone wants to pick one with me. Sometimes it is best to sit back and shut up. You can let them make themselves look bad by allowing them to keep talking.

                  You are an example of this right now.
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                • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
                  Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                  Thomas,

                  I thought when she got her money we where all done. I had no intention to post anything anywhere nor do it. I have over 1000 arguments with custoemrs! BUT I NEVER POST THEM LIKE SHE DID

                  Now that she did this, I cna't fight back?

                  HypeFree
                  The professional thing to do would be to come in and explain yourself in a polite and thoughtful manner.

                  I understand you have notions of what living in America means for you. ANd while you're not wrong about your rights, you do have a lot to learn about the levels of courtesy expected and how business is conducted (from a personal level) in the West.

                  I would never move to another country with a different culture and assume I could just act however I wanted in a business context.

                  Here, getting into **** flinging matches with customers isn't considered a classy or professional way to do things.

                  I'm not trying to take sides with either of you, but if you continue to insist on acting this way towards customers, even the ones that rub you the wrong way, you'll only hurt your business over time.

                  Is it your right to say whatever you want? Short of yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre, yes it is. But that doesn't mean you should just say whatever you want.

                  A little discretion goes a long way.
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                  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
                    Originally Posted by Ryan Healy View Post

                    I understand you have notions of what living in America means for you. ANd while you're not wrong about your rights, you do have a lot to learn about the levels of courtesy expected and how business is conducted (from a personal level) in the West.

                    I would never move to another country with a different culture and assume I could just act however I wanted in a business context.
                    This is a really good point about cultures clashing. I think there is a little bit
                    of that going on, here. I realize there are other issues, too.

                    Hypefree, no one is expecting you to change your personality or how you choose
                    to do business. But you may want to think about where you are. I know very well
                    that other cultures are more direct, and that it can be mistaken for rudeness by
                    people foreign to those cultures.

                    Also, consider what you said about getting into arguments with 1000 customers. Maybe
                    that was just an arbitrary figure, but I'm guessing you have had a lot of problems
                    with customers. If that is correct, maybe that might tell you something?

                    It's just from the standpoint of being as successful as you can in a different
                    culture. No one is suggesting you kiss anyone's butt, either. But as someone
                    who has lived in the US all my life, you'll get farther by being a bit more professional
                    and a bit more polite.

                    You seem to be successful doing what you do, but just imagine how much more
                    successful you can be if you adapt more to where you are rather than expecting
                    others to adapt to you. But... you can still choose to remain the same.

                    Just a suggestion for you...
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                    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
                      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                      if I have to change I would rather bancrupt

                      i want to be what I am, people whould just do buisness with someone else not me
                      I understand. It's cool.

                      It's important to draw your lines and stand by them if you're
                      willing to accept whatever consequences there may be. I've
                      done it, sometimes the consequences were not good. But I
                      felt good about standing my ground.

                      So what country are you from? Just tell us, man. If you want.

                      I experienced quite a bit of foreign 'directness' when I was
                      in the US military and stationed in Germany for two years.

                      One time I was sitting on the floor in a train station in Helsinki,
                      Finland. I had my backpack, and I was reading a book - just
                      waiting for a train.

                      And this young woman came up to me and just looked at me. Of
                      course I looked at her. Then she asked if I was an American. I
                      said, yes. Then she said, "I could tell because you act like you
                      own this place." LOL

                      I have plenty of other stories very similar to that. Sometimes it
                      feels like you can't do anything right no matter what.

                      Ok, good luck to you. Everything will be cool.

                      Ken
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  HypeFree,
                  Now that she did this, I cna't fight back?
                  She did not say anything that would point to you personally. Never mentioned your name, or anything that would have allowed anyone to know who she was talking about.

                  It's perfectly reasonable for you to decide not to do business with her if you choose that. It is NOT reasonable for you to claim that she'd cause problems for other people who bought her products. You have no basis for that assertion.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    HypeFree,
                    I said that based on her doing this the charback alone was not enough but the 2 combined. that is my opinion you i'm sure it will not destry her biz i'm sure everyone here is for her (or most) so no worry for her.

                    i'm just pointing my view of things, and not saying i'm right or wrong just what i feel
                    If you look at what I said, you'll notice that I am on your side, with the one exception. I'm also trying to help you understand why people react to your communication the way they do.


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Ken,
                    She didn't point to him directly, but anyone with the sense God gave asparagus could've gone to the WSO section and found out who it was.
                    One could as easily assert that anyone with the brains of broccoli would have seen the flaw in the complaint and not bothered.

                    That would, however, be a pointlessly rude way to make the point, yes?


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author butters
                      Asparagus, broccoli, I feel like eating a roast dinner now .
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Michael,

                      A: That wasn't directed at you personally.

                      B: The Warrior Forum does, on occasion, take on a distinctly western tone, and some of us exhibit exactly the type of arrogance to which I was referring. It happens with what I consider to be disturbing regularity.


                      Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Michael,

                        A: That wasn't directed at you personally.
                        I know.

                        Other than the use of the personal pronoun, I can't see where my response implied that it was personal. I was actually hoping (hoping, but not expecting) for a response to the example I gave. I enjoy your take on things, and wanted to see how the opposite situation would apply.

                        B: The Warrior Forum does, on occasion, take on a distinctly western tone, and some of us exhibit exactly the type of arrogance to which I was referring. It happens with what I consider to be disturbing regularity.


                        Paul
                        I agree.

                        All the best,
                        Michael
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Michael,
                          If I moved to, say, Japan, and insisted on not adapting to their way of business and courtesy, would it make the Japanese arrogant for wanting me to adapt?
                          No, but that really hasn't much to do with the issue. Social norms are what they are, for any given area. You violate them at some cost.

                          It would be arrogant for anyone to treat another person as being stupid or otherwise deficient simply because they had not yet assimilated (or refused to) after having moved there from another culture.

                          If they simply refused to deal with the person who violated their norms... Nope. Arrogance has nothing to do with it.

                          Social norms exist for mostly valid reasons. They serve as indicators one can use to decide who they wish to deal with. They can also be very dangerous, as they can mislead you. Often quite badly.


                          Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Michael,No, but that really hasn't much to do with the issue. Social norms are what they are, for any given area. You violate them at some cost.

                            It would be arrogant for anyone to treat another person as being stupid or otherwise deficient simply because they had not yet assimilated (or refused to) after having moved there from another culture.

                            If they simply refused to deal with the person who violated their norms... Nope. Arrogance has nothing to do with it.

                            Social norms exist for mostly valid reasons. They serve as indicators one can use to decide who they wish to deal with. They can also be very dangerous, as they can mislead you. Often quite badly.


                            Paul
                            I didn't think it had anything to do with the issue either, until others started using cultural background as a reason for what we perceived as rudeness.

                            So, while it may not technically be the issue, it was certainly an aspect of it that was raised by numerous members. One where I perceived you slamming Westerners for being intolerant of other cultures.

                            That's why I reversed it roles with my example.

                            Furthermore, I agree that considering somebody stupid or deficient for not adapting is going too far. But they could definitely be described as arrogant or rude for not adapting.

                            On the other hand, it shouldn't go so far that someone feels like they are losing their original cultural identity either.

                            But, and here's the other point I was trying to make with my example, my sub-text...

                            IF I were going to live in Japan, by choice, because it provided more opportunity (I am not trying to imply that everyone that emigrates to a Western country is doing so for opportunity), then wouldn't it make sense to take full advantage of what Japan provides - it's culture and societal norms included?

                            All the best,
                            Michael
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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Michael,
                              But they could definitely be described as arrogant or rude for not adapting.
                              If they're not interfering with or pushing their ways on others? Why?

                              BTW... I see cultural identity as a self-imposed label, which we use to create shortcuts in our definitions of ourselves. It's familiar, and identifies us as belonging to some group or other. It has no real bearing on who one really is. But that's a whole other discussion.


                              Paul
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                              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                Michael,If they're not interfering with or pushing their ways on others? Why?

                                BTW... I see cultural identity as a self-imposed label, which we use to create shortcuts in our definitions of ourselves. It's familiar, and identifies us as belonging to some group or other. It has no real bearing on who one really is. But that's a whole other discussion.


                                Paul
                                Your answer makes sense, except as it applies to the premise of the question.

                                Ultimately, I was responding to the idea that Westerners are somehow more arrogant or less accepting of other points of view.

                                However...

                                You're right.

                                It's a fascinating topic, and I think one that is worthy of discussion, but not now, and not here.

                                All the best,
                                Michael
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                                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                                  Ultimately, I was responding to the idea that Westerners are somehow more arrogant or less accepting of other points of view.
                                  Michael,

                                  As you have mentioned Japan in this context I will tell you first hand they can be very aggressive about outsiders conforming to their social norms. As much or more than Americans.

                                  I think it may have to do with how homogeneous the society wants to see itself as, and this can vary, at least in America, by region or historical perspective.

                                  When I lived in California, nobody seemed to give two hoots. Here in the mountains of Virginia where I live you have to strive to overcome "the outsider" stigma.

                                  ~Bill
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                      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        The Warrior Forum does, on occasion, take on a distinctly western tone...
                        I didn't see a post by Thaddeus here so this thread may be an exception to the rule...:rolleyes:

                        ~Bill
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                    • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
                      Thanks Paul. I'm glad to know I don't have the brains of broccoli... at least it's better than not having the sense of asparagus. Personally, I was expecting to be compared to cabbage. (LOL)

                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Ken,One could as easily assert that anyone with the brains of broccoli would have seen the flaw in the complaint and not bothered.

                      That would, however, be a pointlessly rude way to make the point, yes?


                      Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                    She didn't point to him directly, but anyone with the sense God gave asparagus could've gone to the WSO section and found out who it was.

                    Come on.
                    I guess I'm dumber than asparagus, because I don't know if I could have figured it out based on the OP.

                    The problem with your assumption is that a person would guess correctly once they arrived at what they thought was the offending WSO. But, what COULD have happened is the FIRST one they landed on that SEEMED to fit would all of a sudden become the guilty one.

                    Either way, it's closed now, so it's really a completely moot point.

                    I mean, why bring up that point at all, considering you just pointed out it was closed a few posts earlier?

                    All the best,
                    Michael
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                  • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
                    Not true.

                    He had deleted his WSO thread BEFORE I posted anything here.

                    You're right, anyone with the sense God gave asparagus COULD've figured it out... which is why I did NOT post anything here (or on his WSO thread) while the thread was still live.

                    Like I said, it was never my intention to hurt the guy... just to get some much needed input to put the experience in perspective.

                    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                    She didn't point to him directly, but anyone with the sense God gave asparagus could've gone to the WSO section and found out who it was.

                    Come on.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                Paul,

                I sad that after she posted the private email here. If she is willing to acack me in publick like this wouldn't she be likely to do that to you

                yes, i mean what i wrote i would consider 2 times if i would work with her

                how is that rude after she did this?

                can't i defend myself or should i suck it up like everyone else in the name of not being "rude"?

                HypeFree

                Defending yourself isn't the same as attacking her by telling others not to purchase her products.
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              • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                if I "aired it out" every time someone here got under my skin, my post count would be in the 25,000 range.
                I may be a close second.

                This place is a lesson in tolerance and patience, in addition
                to marketing and everything else business related.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Ken,
                  This place is a lesson in tolerance and patience, in addition to marketing and everything else business related.
                  Yep.

                  Also, a lesson in cultural differences. That is much more important than most people here realize. We have members from all over the world.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Ken,Yep.

                    Also, a lesson in cultural differences. That is much more important than most people here realize. We have members from all over the world.


                    Paul

                    And other planets... [cough] Riley [cough]
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                ...if I "aired it out" every time someone here got under my skin, my post count would be in the 25,000 range. "

                Paul
                Heck, what if everybody did that here?

                Just imagine how many threads would end up in an infinite loop. We would probably freeze the entire freaking internet with the flurry of activity.

                All the best,
                Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Paul, different cultures are more direct and sometimes that is perceived as rude.

              I am thinking that is what happened with this transaction.

              I lived in Ukraine for a long time and they're very direct. Some people would call it rude but I wouldn't.
              Exactly. A lot of Easterners actually somewhat become friends before they even do business. I just set up a consignment deal with someone in China ( a country that I love ) that took three days of communication. I hired a person in China to communicate and set up deals for great physical products for me, and one of his questions were "How long do I have to set up a deal?" If he were American dealing with Canadians, I would have said "5 minutes" but because he's a Chinese man dealing with Chinese factories and their CSR's, I told him "take as long as you need to develop a good relationship."

              I can see how a westerner found him rude, but I can also see how someone from the east might have been offended.
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        • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
          Hi Paul,

          Well, I figured it was probably a communication gap at first. I was asking about support for the webinar SERVICE and he was responding that there was no support for the PRODUCT that taught how to hold webinars. That's why I kept trying to get my question answered.

          Perhaps you're right, and I misinterpreted the "tone" in which he meant his replies to sound... but they sounded rude. No matter how many times I re-read them, they sound rude.

          As for "threats" and "public complaint"... I threatened a chargeback because - at that point - I wasn't even sure if the guy was for real anymore, I thought he might be a scammer. And, at NO point in this thread (UNTIL he jumped in, and basically announced to everyone that it was HIM I was talking about), did I ever mention his name or username in a public fashion. So, I've tried to deal with this with as much integrity as possible.

          I guess I could have kept quiet about the entire thing (I usually do), but I REALLY needed to air things out... as I said, the guy got under my skin.


          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Holly,

          I can see where a lot of people might feel this was less than they'd like, in terms of the response. Still, I'm having a hard time seeing where the guy was "rude."

          He didn't say or imply anything unpleasant about you. He offered you a refund without being asked, and stated how he prefers to do business. He recognized that his approach is not for everyone, and did it without judgement.

          He basically said, "I do things this way, and I know some people won't care for that. That's okay. If it's not a good fit, I'll give you your money back and we can both look for other people to do business with."

          If we've gotten to the point where that's worth bashing someone publicly, we're in a really nasty place.

          You're not pissed because he was rude and disrespectful, ma'am. He wasn't. He simply didn't give you the response to which you're accustomed.

          Mind you, I wouldn't find that to my tastes, either. But I certainly wouldn't have responded to those emails with threats or a public complaint. Neither is warranted, based on what you've quoted here.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by abundantliving View Post

            Hi Paul,


            As for "threats" and "public complaint"... I threatened a chargeback because - at that point - I wasn't even sure if the guy was for real anymore, I thought he might be a scammer. And, at NO point in this thread (UNTIL he jumped in, and basically announced to everyone that it was HIM I was talking about), did I ever mention his name or username in a public fashion. So, I've tried to deal with this with as much integrity as possible.

            I guess I could have kept quiet about the entire thing (I usually do), but I REALLY needed to air things out... as I said, the guy got under my skin.
            Cmon now.

            Do you like to be threatened with a chargeback if a customer didn't get a refund when they wanted?

            I think it was more about you being mad.
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          • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
            Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

            I guess I will not see you Holly at my next Bootcamp

            HypeFree
            You won't see me either!
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

          I came to this country because I was told I can be anyway I want. Sam Adams defended the guy who everyone wanted to lynch. People hate me publicly for the way I am, but I have a God given right to pick who I operate and who I do business with.

          I felt you where rude for trying to push me to operate the way I did and because of you I took down the WSO. I was just so disgusted with you.

          But I don't see why I have to lie and hide my opinions "so i'm customer friendly". This hole thing where we have to say this "non rude" things because eveyrone is trained to is BS!

          I didn't like that way you aproahed me and told you how we are. YOu don't like it fine

          I said there are 1000 other webinar system use them

          You didn't like that

          YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE ME. I didn't try to change you i just tried to say

          TAKE YOUR BUISNESS ELSEWHERE! I tried to be as transparent and direct as I can.

          I have publicly kicked opoeple out of my seminars and still it sells out. Some people like it some people dont. The last giy i kicked out was streamed live on ustream.com

          yes i suck at saying this polite we are all submisive to because you gave me a buck. I suck at it.

          You're right. In America we all have the right to be however we want.

          If your true nature is that of a belligerant dickhead, then we, exercising the same, have the right to tell the world what we think about your behavior.

          Eventually, you won't be selling out seminars. Being customer friendly is an expectation in the marketplace, and you've already garnered a reputation.

          Not only would I not do business with you, I am halfway considering posting an article on my blog of all the publically available information that this discussion has created about exactly what not to do in the social media era. I am craving to use you as a textbook example of someone that not only doesn't "get it", but managed to create a permanent Google archive of quite possibly one of the most glaring examples of laughable customer service and marketing ever encountered.

          I still think the Charlie Wenzell kid from that Pirate 4x4 forum that went viral to millions of people after he tried to scam someone in their classified section takes the cake - buy you sir, you are a candidate to also take a ride on the 4chan/Anonymous train.

          The customer is not always right. But the customer ALWAYS PAYS YOUR BILLS.

          And there's never any excuse for not being polite. Period. Maybe in your third world culture, politeness is some sign of weakness, I don't know. But in the bigger world, politeness is a demonstration of respect - which is never a sign of weakness, but rather one of strength.

          Anyone can be a dickhead. It doesn't take any special character.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            I am craving to use you as a textbook example of someone that not only doesn't "get it", but managed to create a permanent Google archive of quite possibly one of the most glaring examples of laughable customer service and marketing ever encountered.
            Okay, not to be a jerk myself here, but...

            I see an awful lot of people who crusade for politeness and tolerance, but still threaten to build a permanent shrine of bad PR against those who oppose their platform.

            Those of us who truly do "get" the power of social media and the internet should probably think about this. It's the proverbial nuclear warhead to kill a cockroach.

            But worse than that, it precludes reform. I'm all for letting someone's own statements speak against them, but when you decide to put up your own personal spin city against that person, they're no longer defending what they themselves have said. They're in the position of defending against a deliberate attack - usually from someone much more eloquent and persuasive than they.

            The internet has placed tremendous, awe-inspiring power in the hands of geeks and nerds... much the same way genetics placed such power in the hands of high school jocks. Shouldn't we be a little more responsible with it than they were? We're not in high school anymore.

            And I can't possibly be the only one who finds it ironic when people say "be nice to your customers, or I'll torpedo your business in Google."
            Signature
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            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              To be fair, Mr. Hiles, I find your response to be rude as well.

              Being respectful doesn't only extend to our customers, but also to those we disagree with. EVEN if they are being rude.

              All the best,
              Michael

              p.s. My apologies for replacing some of your words with *s, but I found them to rude to reprint.

              But see Michael, I didn't call Mr. HypeFree a dickhead. In fact, I said "If your true nature is that of a belligerant dickhead", that way he can decide whether or not he is one. I gave him an opportunity to choose his label for himself with the disclosure of the consequences of choosing to be a d*****d.


              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              Okay, not to be a jerk myself here, but...

              I see an awful lot of people who crusade for politeness and tolerance, but still threaten to build a permanent shrine of bad PR against those who oppose their platform.

              Those of us who truly do "get" the power of social media and the internet should probably think about this. It's the proverbial nuclear warhead to kill a cockroach.

              But worse than that, it precludes reform. I'm all for letting someone's own statements speak against them, but when you decide to put up your own personal spin city against that person, they're no longer defending what they themselves have said. They're in the position of defending against a deliberate attack - usually from someone much more eloquent and persuasive than they.

              The internet has placed tremendous, awe-inspiring power in the hands of geeks and nerds... much the same way genetics placed such power in the hands of high school jocks. Shouldn't we be a little more responsible with it than they were? We're not in high school anymore.

              And I can't possibly be the only one who finds it ironic when people say "be nice to your customers, or I'll torpedo your business in Google."
              And ultimately I agree with you CD. This is purely to illustrate the precarious position that HypeFree has placed himself into.

              This is so far beneath me really, but to emphasize the point, there's nothing to be gained from demonstrating to the world that you're some kind of commando - because ultimately you cannot fight against the power of the entire internet working against you. Death from a thousand cuts.

              Always always always be the better man.

              The thing I learned from dealing with mafia-owned businesses in the past.... always leave the table with the customer owing YOU the favor, and not the other way around.

              Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

              Some of you are arogant.

              I'M NOT IN CUSTOMER SERVICE ON SOME OF THE CHEAP PRODUCTS

              I keep reading here you are in custoemr service i'm not

              I have been in buisness for 6 years on my own

              I'm 100% in customer service but when I accept the person then they get my cell and my time etc... but I would never allow someone you to be my customers

              some of you sound like unreasnable inconsiderate people. Maybe education did this to you i'm not sure what but to someoen like me who came from a poor place you people seam unreasnable

              eather something is wrong with me or somehting is wrong with most of you

              I'm willing to consider soemthing is wrong wiht me and i don't get it

              but why in the world would I take some of these people as a customer i would rather take my money and go fishing the put up with that negative crap

              the point of life is not to make money but build relationsips with good people and not with negative spoiled complaining jerks " who think they are entitled" to me to take their thing for a few bucks

              I REFUSE!

              I have enough customers that I like and feel privadged to work with and give a contribution to their success THEY BRING REASON AND APRECIATION

              I that is 1 person at my bootcamp then I would rather have that one

              Now that is not the case if you go to my bootcamp site you will it's going to sell out again like it did last time! And 50% are repeat cusotmers, I had a few he attended 6 times they follow me to Boston and San diego when I did bootcamps out of town.

              I don't need everyone and I don't care to have everyone.

              AND IF THIS BOTHERS YOU THEN FIND SOME ONE LIKE YOU whom you can shove a few bucks and they will put a fake smile and please you

              IM NOT THAT GUY AND NEVER WILL BE

              And no I'm not rude, those people are, it's just that there are 1000 of them to 1 of someone like me.

              HypeFree
              Yeah... yeah you are rude.

              The picture can never see the frame.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                But see Michael, I didn't call Mr. HypeFree a dickhead. In fact, I said "if", that way he can decide whether or not he is one. I gave him an opportunity to choose his label for himself with the disclosure of the consequences of choosing to be a d*****d.
                How did I know you were going to resort to semantics. Taken in context, that's exactly what you were saying. However, even if you weren't that doesn't change my remarks in regards to treating others with respect.

                To basically say you'll try to ruin the guy (I know, I know you didn't "really" say it, but you did) is pretty rude.

                Also, there is a difference between someone choosing to be rude to their customers (which doesn't make sense to me) and purposely trying to destroy them.

                The former is reactive on a case-by-case basis, the other active on a general basis.

                Why waste your time?

                All the best,
                Michael

                p.s. On the other hand, I'm guessing that HypeFree actually ADMIRES your honesty. If he doesn't I would see all of his prior statements as somewhat hypocritical.
                Signature

                "Ich bin en fuego!"
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                • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                  How did I know you were going to resort to semantics. Taken in context, that's exactly what you were saying. However, even if you weren't that doesn't change my remarks in regards to treating others with respect.

                  To basically say you'll try to ruin the guy (I know, I know you didn't "really" say it, but you did) is pretty rude.

                  Also, there is a difference between someone choosing to be rude to their customers (which doesn't make sense to me) and purposely trying to destroy them.

                  The former is reactive on a case-by-case basis, the other active on a general basis.

                  Why waste your time?

                  All the best,
                  Michael

                  p.s. On the other hand, I'm guessing that HypeFree actually ADMIRES your honesty. If he doesn't I would see all of his prior statements as somewhat hypocritical.

                  lol... touche'... semantics... HOWEVER... as a great man once said, "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."

                  That was Winston Churchill.

                  The point is to illustrate the CONSEQUENCE of all of our choices. HypeFree got himself into a bit of a bind here because he doesn't place value on politeness or customer support (even though he's adamant that he doesn't offer support on the cheap product).

                  My entire purpose was to illustrate the potential consequence that COULD happen should some disgruntled person come along and post really damaging things about he and his business practices.

                  It was obviously an effective communication because no less than two readers (you and darklock) recoiled in disgust at the mere suggestion.

                  And that's the point. That is what could happen to HypeFree. The more battle lines you draw between yourself and others, the greater the liklihood that could happen in this era.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                    The point is to illustrate the CONSEQUENCE of all of our choices. Dan/HypeFree got himself into a bit of a bind here because he doesn't place value on politeness or customer support (even though he's adamant that he doesn't offer support on the cheap product).

                    My entire purpose was to illustrate the potential consequence that COULD happen should some disgruntled person come along and post really damaging things about he and his business practices.
                    Actually, it looks like you are back tracking on what you previously said. I have more respect for Hypefree for saying what he feels even when in the minority while you seem to flip flop when called out on your remarks.

                    Waiting for some more Winston Churchill quotes to try and show how developed you are compared to Hypefree...
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                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      Actually, it looks like you are back tracking on what you previously said. I have more respect for Hypefree for saying what he feels even when in the minority while you seem to flip flop when called out on your remarks.

                      Waiting for some more Winston Churchill quotes to try and show how developed you are compared to Hypefree...

                      Not at all. I stand by my words.... including the semantics. Real name, picture and all.
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      you seem to flip flop when called out on your remarks.
                      In my book, "I am halfway considering" inherently reserves the right to flip-flop, and you should have expected it - after all, it usually translates into "I'd never do this but I sure would like to."
                      Signature
                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                        In my book, "I am halfway considering" inherently reserves the right to flip-flop, and you should have expected it - after all, it usually translates into "I'd never do this but I sure would like to."

                        lol... you think like an engineer
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                        In my book, "I am halfway considering" inherently reserves the right to flip-flop, and you should have expected it - after all, it usually translates into "I'd never do this but I sure would like to."

                        Sounds like a great disclaimer on all of our posts.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


            And there's never any excuse for not being polite. Period. Maybe in your third world culture, politeness is some sign of weakness, I don't know. But in the bigger world, politeness is a demonstration of respect - which is never a sign of weakness, but rather one of strength.

            Anyone can be a dickhead. It doesn't take any special character.
            Great illustration of what I was talking about in regards to western arrogance.

            BTW, he is not form a 3rd world country. Maybe when you come off your high horse you can learn a little.

            It looks like you are weak since you decided to be rude. Just saying...
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    • Profile picture of the author adami
      I was surprised to hear that.

      Anyway, I can't figure out how being rude to your customers may help your business. If it were a viable practice, I suppose there would be more to exercise it.

      And I doubt that doing business that way would only cost you 10% of your customers. Great customer support is THE deciding factor for many consumers out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author ECWCock
    I really have nothing of value to add, but that story had me LOL'ing. Glad you got your money back!
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    Holly,

    It is quite evident from your post that you are an A+ communicator. Too bad that "rude dude" did not get it any one of the times you tried. I would vote for a big fat NO to the idea of not worrying about losing 10% of your prospects/customers. That is a lousy way to do business and a very negative way to go through life. I think sometimes you eventually have to be firm but never rude. It would not surprize me if he has lost a lot more than 10% over the course of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Um...

    There's a lot of people born in this country that have that attitude, too.

    Just sayin'

    Anyway, to answer the question...

    Yes, it is better to be rude to your customers, but only if the idea of diminishing returns appeals to you.

    It also sounds like he's missing a major point. There are times when, as marketers, we have to let problematic customers go, or thin our lists to those who are most responsive. In other words, there's a fine art to it. I get the impression the seller in question is just using the concept of customer culling as a justification for his rudeness.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Um...

      There's a lot of people born in this country that have that attitude, too.
      Yes, I know very well.
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    • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
      Well, I kept you anonymous till you decided to comment on this thread.

      Since you deleted your WSO thread, there's no way for anyone to confirm this, but yes... I DID send this request (via PM) for a review copy to HELP YOU OUT since warriors were commenting on your thread that they didn't want to purchase at that price point unless you had some testimonials or reviews to show them.

      Here is a copy of the full message I sent via PM so other warriors can see what I did (it is my understanding that the ban against requests for review copies only extends to public requests posted on a thread):

      "Your WSO sounds very interesting.

      I noticed that other warriors are hesitant to buy because you don't have any reviews or testimonials (and probably also because you have a low post count).

      If you're willing to send me a review copy, I'd be happy to write a review on your WSO thread for you.

      I have been online since 1998, and have a good reputation both in and out of the warrior forum.

      Let me know if you'd like me to review your product.

      Holly Cotter "


      I've dealt with you honestly and POLITELY, and I have nothing to hide.

      Oh, and one more thing...

      I had no interest in purchasing a product that teaches me how to hold a webinar... I've been holding webinars for years. I was only interested in finding out what webinar system you were using that allowed you the features you had mentioned.

      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      I would careful when working with her. She is not suppose to ask for free review copy of products from Warrior members, check the Warrior Rules.

      SHE DID

      Will she be banned? I ask for it. I hope the Warrior Forum admin check and takes some action. I vote for it.

      Sincerely,

      HypeFree
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  • Profile picture of the author Maddi
    First off. Holly I salute you for your Patience. [I actually stood up from ma chair]

    The only reason I think he is still successful in his business is because by the looks of it, he creates fantastic products [ which kept you hanging in there all the while].

    I despise people with an attitude problem specially in Business. In 2010, Customer Service is the only business we are all in. No matter what your service, what your product. YOU are in the customer service business - that is how I treat it.

    I love to interact, solve problems and communicate with my customers.

    Now he doesn't have to go the extra mile, but at least freaking answer basic support questions. If he didn't have phone support, he could've at least pointed you to his support staff as that was the closest thing he could offer. But 'Since the World aint fair' we can't expect everyone to be nice and supportive.

    Sorry you had to go through this Holly - too bad the Guy just lost another JV partner.

    Maddi
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    • Originally Posted by Maddi View Post

      First off. Holly I salute you for your Patience. [I actually stood up from ma chair]

      The only reason I think he is still successful in his business is because by the looks of it, he creates fantastic products [ which kept you hanging in there all the while].

      I despise people with an attitude problem specially in Business. In 2010, Customer Service is the only business we are all in. No matter what your service, what your product. YOU are in the customer service business - that is how I treat it.

      I love to interact, solve problems and communicate with my customers.

      Now he doesn't have to go the extra mile, but at least freaking answer basic support questions. If he didn't have phone support, he could've at least pointed you to his support staff as that was the closest thing he could offer. But 'Since the World aint fair' we can't expect everyone to be nice and supportive.

      Sorry you had to go through this Holly - too bad the Guy just lost another JV partner.

      Maddi

      LOL... I too got up... I have patience to deal with rude customers BUT no patience to deal with RUDE sellers... What is up with that?

      Holly, I am sorry you had such a terrible experience. I am kind of torn here. Although I want to tell you to dish out and speak your life out against this idiot, some people here have a point, he does have a great product, and did refund the money. So, does that give him the right to be rude? NO, not at all, but I do not really know how much benefit screaming out his name will bring you. That said, I guess all that is left to do is tough it up, share the experience with others and learn from it!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author kiopa
    Banned
    Originally Posted by abundantliving View Post

    but I HAVE THE RIGHT TO OPERATE THIS WAY.


    True, he does have a right to operate any way he wishes. I just hope karma treats him appropriately. Generally, having an ego like that will eventually bite you in the ass.

    But no, there's never any reason to be rude. You can be firm and blunt, which is sometimes called for, but being rude never helped anyone. Same with getting angry. I don't believe that helps anything either.
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  • Profile picture of the author bighelp
    With some fear and trepidation...I'm seeing the same thing Ryan saw. While I wouldn't go about it the way this guy did, it did seem he was simply saying, 'No support available. Take it or leave it.' There's something to be said for knowing exactly what niche you're targeting. I would encourage him to soften the anti-pitch a bit.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      You can be rude if you want! I think she is rude and not taking a look at what she is demanding for little money, MAYBE SOMEONE DOESN'T WANT HER TO BE A CUSTOMER! I don't see why every person think that everyone had to bend to the customer will for a few bucks!

      Companies should have the right to be rude to customers if they want to! It's a god given right! The customers have the right to vote with their wallet!

      That is my 2 cent now send the angry messages my way! Maybe one day I go to school to learn customer service.

      PS: Plus some people just stupid and uneducated and don't have the skill to dealt with people like she has. (I'm one of them)

      Sincerely,

      HypeFree
      No angry messages your way, at least not from me. You're not stupid, either.
      It's not necessary to be educated to deal with people in an effective manner.
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  • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
    Thank you everyone. Posting this thread and reading the responses has been very cathartic.

    Usually I have a thick skin, and the sh*t rolls right off. I don't know whether it's hormones or something, but today I just got pissed.

    By commenting on this thread, the guy himself gave you an upfront and personal look at the obnoxious behavior I was talking about.

    Would YOU buy anything from someone who treats you, his customer, like that? He may LIVE in America, but I don't think he's going to be very successful doing business that way in America.

    I appreciate all your input, feedback and support everyone. THANKS! I'm smiling again.
    :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
      Originally Posted by abundantliving View Post

      THANKS! I'm smiling again.
      :-)

      Awesome - that is all that is important in the long run.

      All the best!
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  • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
    Nope Paul, I just read the guy's most recent post. He's DEFINITELY rude, and he DEFINITELY means to be rude... I'm not misinterpreting anything here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Schwenk
    This reminds me of "the law of 250".

    This was coined by Joe Girard, an author and formerly noted as "the world's best car salesman". He notes that the average person knows approximately 250 people.

    Therefore, he says, it's important to be honest and care for your customers because for every person you have a positive influence on, it will create a ripple effect (word of mouth). Thus, giving you a chance to reach out to a portion of that person's circle of 250.

    Pretty common sense, but what you said reminded me of that specific example. It's in his book How to Sell Anything to Anybody.

    Kudos for keeping your patience. Hopefully you got your refund.

    - Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      After reading this thread I came to one conclusion...



      I'm still looking for a video on 'hair triggers'...

      ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
        Bill,

        I'm STILL LAUGHING! You hit the nail on the head! Most likely, this is just a failure between me and HypeFree to communicate... and we're probably both wishing we could bash the other one across the head with a big stick!(LOL)

        HYPEFREE: I don't hold grudges. If you want to clear the air between us, we can do that. This is probably just a big misunderstanding that we could clear up by chatting on skype over a Samuel Adams. Let me know.
        :-)

        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        After reading this thread I came to one conclusion...

        YouTube - cool hand luke


        I'm still looking for a video on 'hair triggers'...

        ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author BCJason
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        After reading this thread I came to one conclusion...

        YouTube - cool hand luke


        I'm still looking for a video on 'hair triggers'...

        ~Bill
        Awesome man.
        I was thinking about old Luke the whole time I've been following this.
        Wow.
        I think a little rude sure goes along way.
        Sometimes you just have to let it go.
        Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Is being rude and obnoxious good? Depends I guess, Simon Cowel comes to mind and look where he is today. He tells people they suck, he is rude, he offers no support in making them better, he is doing alright for himself . Obviously if you are offering a service, which may inherit technical problems then you should be polite and respectful. Obviously the person was an idiot but hey, plenty of them in the world so nothing new .
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
      In all honesty, I don't see the problem.

      It is definitely up to the seller as to whether or not he wishes to provide the support or not.

      If he states on his website that no support will be provided, then I see no problem with your above conversation.

      While I personally always support my customers, if the guy doesn't want to do it, he doesn't have to.

      I didn't find his response rude at all - he was just very upfront and straight to the point with no sugar coating. And you know, he is probably right.

      If 10% of your customers are asking for support all the time, wouldn't it make sense to cut back on that expense by not offering technical support at all? He still has the 90% of the people he can make money from.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Lee,

        Calling the man an idiot was rude. It was also way off the mark.

        To be honest, I often find your approach more abrasive than what HypeFree posted here. And yet, I have somehow managed (as far as I can recall) to avoid calling you an idiot.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author butters
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Lee,

          Calling the man an idiot was rude. It was also way off the mark.

          To be honest, I often find your approach more abrasive than what HypeFree posted here. And yet, I have somehow managed (as far as I can recall) to avoid calling you an idiot.


          Paul
          Maybe I was wrong to use the word, "Idiot" and I apologies for that but I just think its weird for someone to jump straight into "You can have a refund" in his first reply after being asked two perfectly legit questions.

          And Paul, you can call me an idiot if you wish.
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    • Profile picture of the author WebMarketeer
      Its whats right and whats wrong, common sense plays a big part here, and its quite obvious who will be in business longer but coming to this country to think you can do or say whatever you want is hilarious, especially if its in the form of being rude and unhelpful to people who are putting their trust and money into you, we don't want you here if that's the case. To many people have this thought and thats how good honest people have to waste their time with filth. So anyone that agrees with the "not so helpful" end of this thread Im sure would be singing a completely different tune if they had put their time and money into that kind of turn out. Sure he can be rude if he wants, but believe me, he will not last long in this country, those types of people get the boot fast foreign or not whether it be by karma or physically by acting that way to the wrong person.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Many many years ago when I was still a young man a rough and ready multimillionaire who was a friend of mine had something he was fond of saying:

      "Be nice to the people you meet on the way up...they're the same people you'll run into when you're on the way back down again."


      Having been in business for many, many, years I've experienced the wisdom of that over and over again.

      When I was young running regular brick and mortar businesses I would have gone broke several times if it wasn't for people who trusted me giving me stock on credit when I needed it, letting me pay bills late, giving me access to resources etc etc.

      Every successful business person I know has had similar experiences.

      We remember who helped us, we remember who was kind to us, to our friends and our family.

      We remember who went out of their way to help us when they really didn't have to.

      And you'd better believe we remember who was rude to us or tried to screw us or ripped us off.

      Burn enough people and it will come back to you...usually at the worst possible time in the worst possible way (and yes I've seen good businesses go down in flames for this very reason...no one would loan water help the captain on the burning ship if he was an ahole.)


      Being polite pays dividends.

      Doing the opposite can cost you more than you realize.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author dougp
      I think this is a classic encounter of culture barriers. I've came in contact with Holly several times and she is certainly not an unreasonable customer. I can kind of relate because sometimes you want a product and it has all of the bells and whistles of a dream product, BUT it has that one big turn off, and in this case it was the lack of support. With that being said, i would appreciate someone who is straightforward and honest and say that they dont provide support rather than someone that say they will but then dont!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Time to lock this thread. There's nothing new being added, and we've got people posting who've obviously not read past the first post or three.

      Say g'night, Gracie.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    It's an interesting story, and glad I read it.

    However, it's true. He can do or say what he wants. His customer service is horrible, and it seems pretty obvious that no customer service is part of his business model. If it works for him, so be it. Just let him do what he wants, as this is American and he can do and say what he wants, he he.

    That's all I can take from this story. If you supply great customer service, that's great. I would like to supply great customer service, but if this guy is easily giving away refunds so he doesn't have to do support, more power to him. I'm not gonna pass judgement on him and say he's wrong, as it's his business, his life and not mine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      in any case not everyone is good like you people in customer service i was fired from most jobs here in amerike people tell me "i'm not a team player"

      HypeFree

      Sorry, that made me laugh.

      I have a feeling you were from a fsu country. What country?
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      • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
        Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

        The country that 60% of men died in a world war 1, because we where not good in politics. Google World War 1 I'm sure you can figure it out.
        According to wikipedia no country lost 60% of its male population:
        World War I casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        (it's true, there is no differentiation by gender...)

        According to the table on the page above the highest lost was 16% - the Kingdom of Serbia having a population of 4.5 million at that time.
        BTW, they were on the winning side, in Entente.

        Assuming half of it were male = 2.5 million men.

        60% of 2.5 million would be = 1.5 million
        Now the total number of casualties is estimated 725,000 (male and female because it includes civilians, too).

        I am not saying that's a small number! Even one human life lost is too much for me. I just like the check out statements.

        Based on the data above plus the name associated with the product in your sig - my guess is Serbia is your country of origin.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jim Hallmark
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      I don't like people asking for free stuff that is what destroyed my ex comunist country I just didin't like she asked for free stuff that ticked me off.

      if she just called and took a refund and not me ( i dont do support well) or emailed support (not saying i will charge back like she did)

      nothing would happen

      I hate free stuff and that is whey they have that rule

      HypeFree
      While I believe there is a distinct possibility that cultural difference played a part in this misunderstanding, I think the bigger issue appears to be a matter of perception based on ones experiences in life irregardless of ones cultural background.

      I once had a client whose husband became quite upset whenever she removed herself occasionally to the spare bedroom to read a book. She was totally confused by his actions and didn't understand why he would mind her having some "quiet time" to herself once in awhile. What she wasn't aware of was that her husbands mother was very self centered and manipulative with him as a boy and demanded perfection of him at every moment. When inevitably he would do something to displease her she would lock herself in her room for several days at a time, reading her book. During this time she refused to speak to him and his perception was when this series of events happened that she didn't love him. Fast forward to his relationship with his wife and it is easy to see why something as apparently innocent as reading a book in another room triggered his emotion.

      Holly stated that she was trying to help the seller out by offering to take a look at his product and give it an honest review. Unfortunately, the seller, by his remarks above was emotionally triggered by her asking for a review. By his own statement, asking for free stuff was what destroyed his country. So it is easy to see why his perception of Holly asking for a review copy was a slap in the face. From there the whole incident appears to snowball.

      Unfortunately these kinds of encounters are bound to happen from time to time. What I think it quite helpful though is that threads like this allow us to perhaps take a closer look at the seller/customer relationship in a different light. Maybe that seller or buyer we encounter who at first seems "rude" to us is really not. In the end it's all perception anyway.
      Cheers,
      Jim
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      • Profile picture of the author ozduc
        @Hypefree.
        While I will totally defend your right to pick and choose your customers, I have to make a few points here. I may be wasting my time posting as it seems you are pretty set in your ways but maybe you will take a step back and look at this from an outsiders POV. i do not know you and all I can go by is what I read and see. (I watched some of your videos)
        After reading through one of your other posts about being labeled a scam artist, by your own admission you have a 97% failure rate from customers who purchase your take home coaching products. Yet in the same post you talk about customers not sending you a prepaid thank you card. So you would like your customers to get into the habit of sending cards as you say it will increase their sales but you do not want to offer any customer support yourself. That seems like a bit of hypocrisy to me.
        Then in this post you admit to having over 1000 arguments with customers but only a 3% refund rate. There are quite a few other discrepencies between your posts but the main point I am trying to make is that maybe you should take a look at the way you conduct your business if you really want to decrease the failure rate you are seeing with your students.
        Just maybe the 97% that didn't send you a thank you card didn't think you deserved it, even if you did prepay for it.

        As I said I do not know you, and this is not a personal attack in any way.
        just an outside observation.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Paul/Holly/HypeFree,

          I've read these posts with interest, as I work with people of a different nationality/culture/language a lot and I've been learning about the cultural/language differences - particularly concerning politeness and doing business. My country and the other one are quite close geographically, but have a 'history' (who don't the English have a 'history' with?!) and have some similarities but also quite different approaches to certain things - particularly concerning manners.

          It's been an interesting experience.

          I think you nailed it here Paul -

          Why? Because we try to be polite, and prefer people to be polite?
          Nope. Because we expect the rest of the world to adapt and do things our way, and we judge them as being somehow inferior if they don't. And because we attempt to impose our definitions of things like "polite" on others.
          (Emphasis added by me.)

          Ever since I discovered IM and this forum, I've had to adjust to the idea that other cultures view the use of hype differently to some of my own (UK) culture (and coincidentally the person being discussed chose to call themselves 'HypeFree') - particularly when hype is used in a manner where it can easily cross over a boundary into outright deception/lies and where that boundary has become blurred - quite often it seems that people use these cultural differences to their advantage by deliberately crossing the hype/deception boundary but act like it was accidental when they get caught out.

          From my point of view, this lack of integrity is the epitome of impoliteness and because of this, I am much less likely to be offended if someone is bluntly honest - even to the point of rudeness, than if they were to try to deceive me. In my experience, the long term consequences of dishonesty are far more dangerous than any amount of 'honest' rudeness or bluntness.

          I'd much rather deal with a rude, but honest person than a polite liar. In this thread it appears that HypeFree might actually have been trying to use some of the bluntness/rudeness to help save both of them time which could have been wasted on a business pairing that HypeFree felt right from the start was never going to work. In retrospect, with further information provided, I wonder if Holly feels that HypeFree was actually being less rude than she at first thought?

          Here's something that caught my eye from post#31 (one of Holly's posts) -

          I DID send this request (via PM) for a review copy to HELP YOU OUT since warriors were commenting on your thread that they didn't want to purchase at that price point unless you had some testimonials or reviews to show them.
          (transcript of review request PM below in italics)

          "Your WSO sounds very interesting.

          I noticed that other warriors are hesitant to buy because you don't have any reviews or testimonials (and probably also because you have a low post count).

          If you're willing to send me a review copy, I'd be happy to write a review on your WSO thread for you.

          I have been online since 1998, and have a good reputation both in and out of the warrior forum.

          Let me know if you'd like me to review your product.

          Holly Cotter "
          (End of PM transcript)

          I've dealt with you honestly and POLITELY, and I have nothing to hide.

          Oh, and one more thing...

          I had no interest in purchasing a product that teaches me how to hold a webinar... I've been holding webinars for years. I was only interested in finding out what webinar system you were using that allowed you the features you had mentioned.
          I might be off-course here, but Holly is saying that she was interested in helping the seller out (stated again in the actual PM as the reason for the request) and adds that she has dealt with HypeFree honestly.

          Yet, at the end Holly states that she isn't interested in the product, just finding out what system the seller is using (presumeably for her own benefit) - which appears to contradict (slightly) the reasons given for her request and her claim of dealing with HypeFree honestly.

          Plus, Holly is willing to provide a review, which as we all know would probably be used as a testimonial for this product far and wide if the review was good.

          Going back to the cultural differences I mentioned earlier on, I'm wondering if this is an example? From all I have seen and heard about Holly, she is of the highest integrity - and she obviously values her reputation (as stated in the PM) - and I still have no reason to question her core integrity and I hope that the following paragraph (or above) does not offend.

          But there appears to be a duality to her reasoning for the request and yet again I am left wondering why people would prefer to have their name/reputation used across the internet recommending a product (even one they 'have no interest in') in preference to just paying for it in order to learn something they desire to learn?

          I feel that this again highlights the differences in the way that different cultures view these things - even between two similar, shared language, Western cultures - although it's worth mentioning that my opinion/attitude may differ from others within my culture/country - I'm just generalising a little for the sake of convenience. I'm also ignoring Kierkegaard's valid point in post# 124 about the difference between politeness and etiquette for the same reason.

          Hi Jim Hallmark,

          Holly stated that she was trying to help the seller out by offering to take a look at his product and give it an honest review.
          You make a valid and useful point in your post, but regarding the above quote, there was another reason given too (later) which may offer additional insight into HypeFree's response.
          Signature


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          • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
            I answered part of your question in another post... I figured it would be a good exchange... my time and endorsement and, in return, I'm able to find out what software he uses.

            On the other hand, if his product had sucked, I would never have endorsed it (my reputation is too important to me). If he had agreed to the review copy, I would have explained BEFOREHAND that - if I liked what I saw - I would leave a review on his thread... and, if I didn't, I would provide him with my concerns privately via PM.

            Other warriors reading this are probably nodding their heads... this is my modus operandi, and I have left many positive reviews for products, and many times I've had to PM warriors to tell them why I can't leave a positive review and the changes they might want to make to the product.

            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Paul/Holly/HypeFree,

            I've read these posts with interest, as I work with people of a different nationality/culture/language a lot and I've been learning about the cultural/language differences - particularly concerning politeness and doing business. My country and the other one are quite close geographically, but have a 'history' (who don't the English have a 'history' with?!) and have some similarities but also quite different approaches to certain things - particularly concerning manners.

            It's been an interesting experience.

            I think you nailed it here Paul -

            (Emphasis added by me.)

            Ever since I discovered IM and this forum, I've had to adjust to the idea that other cultures view the use of hype differently to some of my own (UK) culture (and coincidentally the person being discussed chose to call themselves 'HypeFree') - particularly when hype is used in a manner where it can easily cross over a boundary into outright deception/lies and where that boundary has become blurred - quite often it seems that people use these cultural differences to their advantage by deliberately crossing the hype/deception boundary but act like it was accidental when they get caught out.

            From my point of view, this lack of integrity is the epitome of impoliteness and because of this, I am much less likely to be offended if someone is bluntly honest - even to the point of rudeness, than if they were to try to deceive me. In my experience, the long term consequences of dishonesty are far more dangerous than any amount of 'honest' rudeness or bluntness.

            I'd much rather deal with a rude, but honest person than a polite liar. In this thread it appears that HypeFree might actually have been trying to use some of the bluntness/rudeness to help save both of them time which could have been wasted on a business pairing that HypeFree felt right from the start was never going to work. In retrospect, with further information provided, I wonder if Holly feels that HypeFree was actually being less rude than she at first thought?

            Here's something that caught my eye from post#31 (one of Holly's posts) -

            (transcript of review request PM below in italics)
            (End of PM transcript)
            I might be off-course here, but Holly is saying that she was interested in helping the seller out (stated again in the actual PM as the reason for the request) and adds that she has dealt with HypeFree honestly.

            Yet, at the end Holly states that she isn't interested in the product, just finding out what system the seller is using (presumeably for her own benefit) - which appears to contradict (slightly) the reasons given for her request and her claim of dealing with HypeFree honestly.

            Plus, Holly is willing to provide a review, which as we all know would probably be used as a testimonial for this product far and wide if the review was good.

            Going back to the cultural differences I mentioned earlier on, I'm wondering if this is an example? From all I have seen and heard about Holly, she is of the highest integrity - and she obviously values her reputation (as stated in the PM) - and I still have no reason to question her core integrity and I hope that the following paragraph (or above) does not offend.

            But there appears to be a duality to her reasoning for the request and yet again I am left wondering why people would prefer to have their name/reputation used across the internet recommending a product (even one they 'have no interest in') in preference to just paying for it in order to learn something they desire to learn?

            I feel that this again highlights the differences in the way that different cultures view these things - even between two similar, shared language, Western cultures - although it's worth mentioning that my opinion/attitude may differ from others within my culture/country - I'm just generalising a little for the sake of convenience. I'm also ignoring Kierkegaard's valid point in post# 124 about the difference between politeness and etiquette for the same reason.

            Hi Jim Hallmark,



            You make a valid and useful point in your post, but regarding the above quote, there was another reason given too (later) which may offer additional insight into HypeFree's response.
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      • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
        Thank you Jim. You explained it very well.

        Until I started this thread and everyone started commenting (including the guy who had upset me), I had NO idea that I had offended him by offering to help him.

        My perception was... I don't need a product that teaches me how to use a webinar since I've been doing that forever, but that I'd love to find out what system he is using that is allowing him so much flexibility. I figured it was worth a few minutes of my time to go thru his stuff to leave an honest review... so I could find out what system he used.

        It never crossed my mind (even AFTER the interactions between us began) that I had offended him.

        Now that I understand how he perceived my request, I can fully understand his abrupt (and, seemingly rude) responses to my request for info about what type of support was available to customers.

        As I mentioned in an earlier post, this thread has been a learning experience for me. If not for this discussion, I STILL would not realize that I had offended him.

        HypeFree, if you're reading this... I truly AM sorry about the misunderstanding. It was never my intention to offend you. And, had I known it would offend you, I would never have done it in the first place.

        Originally Posted by Jim Hallmark View Post

        While I believe there is a distinct possibility that cultural difference played a part in this misunderstanding, I think the bigger issue appears to be a matter of perception based on ones experiences in life irregardless of ones cultural background.

        I once had a client whose husband became quite upset whenever she removed herself occasionally to the spare bedroom to read a book. She was totally confused by his actions and didn't understand why he would mind her having some "quiet time" to herself once in awhile. What she wasn't aware of was that her husbands mother was very self centered and manipulative with him as a boy and demanded perfection of him at every moment. When inevitably he would do something to displease her she would lock herself in her room for several days at a time, reading her book. During this time she refused to speak to him and his perception was when this series of events happened that she didn't love him. Fast forward to his relationship with his wife and it is easy to see why something as apparently innocent as reading a book in another room triggered his emotion.

        Holly stated that she was trying to help the seller out by offering to take a look at his product and give it an honest review. Unfortunately, the seller, by his remarks above was emotionally triggered by her asking for a review. By his own statement, asking for free stuff was what destroyed his country. So it is easy to see why his perception of Holly asking for a review copy was a slap in the face. From there the whole incident appears to snowball.

        Unfortunately these kinds of encounters are bound to happen from time to time. What I think it quite helpful though is that threads like this allow us to perhaps take a closer look at the seller/customer relationship in a different light. Maybe that seller or buyer we encounter who at first seems "rude" to us is really not. In the end it's all perception anyway.
        Cheers,
        Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Read this again ...

    "did you private label something else? (I ask because I tried calling the number on the webiste to get the question about Mac's answered, and got a machine. I love the features, but am very concerned about getting quick support."

    First, a question about whether this is really someone else's product. Then an implication about a support problem because a phone call was not answered live.

    Now that doesn't excuse the subsequent rudeness, but I can see where the seller was a little put-off.

    I mean really. When you call and get an answering machine do you start assuming the product is a copy, or there is no support? Or perhaps that the seller lives halfway across the world? Or is in the bathroom? Or is living the Internet lifestyle?

    Different people may have different reactions. Doesn't mean different reactions are wrong. They're just based on our prior experiences.

    On the other hand, there is an excellent point that this is a webinar system, and if there is a problem the customer should know ahead of time whether someone is immediately available to fix what could be a very embarrassing and expensive problem.

    Thinking ahead about that customer need is something the seller should be clear about. Doesn't mean the product is bad. Just means, eg., it might be cheaper than alternatives.

    So I see blame all the way around.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny_C
    Sounds like the 4-Hour Work Week 80/20 rule in action. Only accept customers who take the least of your time, because 80% of your profit comes from 20% of your customers, and those tend to be the ones who don't need support.

    I didn't get the sense he was trying to be rude (at first)... just a spiraling misunderstanding. Maybe a bit blunt, but he probably expects to waste less time that way (didn't look to work out that way this time).
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      HypeFree,
      no it didn't she won and turned out to be the most expensive customer in the history of being self employed
      Or possibly the most profitable. That depends on what you choose to do with the lesson.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
        I LOVE the way you see things Paul. I've learned something from this as well.

        Thanks everyone for all your input!! It's a lesson well learned.
        :-)

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        HypeFree,Or possibly the most profitable. That depends on what you choose to do with the lesson.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
    I don't hate you. I'm sorry we weren't able to communicate better because you seem to have a great webinar service and I would have been able to get you a lot of new business.

    Good luck with your ventures. I wish you the best.

    Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

    Ok, I have to go working on a big deal. I'll be back to defend anything here.

    I know you all hate me now for sucking at comunicating with Holly but i never try to pretent like you are buying a fanastic service i said it's cheap full of holes but i have trained 100's of people to do this kind of stuff and i know how this works

    i even wrote there are holes problems etc... don't buy if you nitpick i wrote all that

    then she said i want it free i try to get her to go away. because of her i deleted the pitch so it's not there i'm sure she has a copy you can see i don't misrepresent

    in any case go hate me there are many who hate me i'm here to be myself and look for people who are direct like me so we can build a friendship and learn this complicated stuff together and improve

    but belive me there are tons of people like me who don't like to take everything just for a few bucks and speak up i'm not the only one and those are the few i want to work with no people like Holly i don't like people like her

    am i bad? if you think so just ignore me, i'm not looking to work with everyone i'm looking to work with 1 in 50,000 that is enough

    good luck to everyone and be yourself you hav the right in america
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  • Profile picture of the author lisaann
    I've heard that Dan Kennedy tries to come across as cranky and rude just to avoid dealing with people who will want his personal attention.

    It's hard when you're selling an infoproduct because people want your personal time and attention (even when you make no mention of that being part of what they're buying).

    It's great that some people running WSO's want to give up that much time, but really, do you think they're earning much from anything other than running WSO's if they can spend 40 hours a week providing free coaching for the sales of their $17 ebook? Most people who are really successful aren't going to let customer support rule their life like that.

    This post makes me cringe because I hate to admit it, but I totally get where the **accused** is coming from.

    Lisa
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    I either am miss understanding here, maybe the OP can clear this up for me. I don't understand why people are posting about how the guy has the right not to offer customer support, thats obviously his own choice. It's more on the basis of how he conducted himself when receiving a more then legitimate email. He barely answered the questions asked, he then went onto say basically instantly, ask for a refund... I don't know about me but that's just weird, me personally I was brought up with the saying, manners don't cost a thing.

    The simple and polite reply, which would of tooken the exact same amount of times as writing his first reply would of went like this.

    "Yes our software does work on a MAC and no sorry, we do not offer any customer support of any kind. We leave it up to our customers to solve there own problems but we have provided lots of instructional material for them to learn from... Thank you."

    Something like that, all problems solved, politely done, simple and just nice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Lee,

      Yes, that probably would have worked. It's what is expected. However, you're dealing with a person who is from a different cultural background and communicating in a second language.

      When I read threads like this, I get a better understanding of why so many people dislike westerners.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Lee,

        Yes, that probably would have worked. It's what is expected. However, you're dealing with a person who is from a different cultural background and communicating in a second language.

        When I read threads like this, I get a better understanding of why so many people dislike westerners.


        Paul
        Why? Because we try to be polite, and prefer people to be polite?

        Shame on us!

        All the best,
        Michael

        p.s. And when we don't feel like being polite, we may revert to sarcasm.
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Michael,
          Why? Because we try to be polite, and prefer people to be polite?
          Nope. Because we expect the rest of the world to adapt and do things our way, and we judge them as being somehow inferior if they don't. And because we attempt to impose our definitions of things like "polite" on others.

          Recognizing and accepting the simple reality of cultural differences is not something people in most western countries are good at. Cultural arrogance, on the other hand...


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author butters
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,Nope. Because we expect the rest of the world to adapt and do things our way, and we judge them as being somehow inferior if they don't. And because we attempt to impose our definitions of things like "polite" on others.

            Recognizing and accepting the simple reality of cultural differences is not something people in most western countries are good at. Cultural arrogance, on the other hand...


            Paul
            Genuine question now... If your target market is westerners mainly, shouldn't they adapt to make it more accustom to their target market?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Lee,
              Genuine question now... If your target market is westerners mainly, shouldn't they adapt to make it more accustom to their target market?
              Like most such questions, that depends on the person and the goal. They should certainly be aware that failing to learn cultural norms will have consequences, but HypeFree seems to understand that pretty clearly.


              Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Ryan Healy
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,Nope. Because we expect the rest of the world to adapt and do things our way, and we judge them as being somehow inferior if they don't. And because we attempt to impose our definitions of things like "polite" on others.

            Recognizing and accepting the simple reality of cultural differences is not something people in most western countries are good at. Cultural arrogance, on the other hand...

            Paul
            While this post might be true on a much larger and more general scale, in the business world, I have to disagree completely.

            There is nothing wrong with expecting someone to adapt to the cultural business norms of a country that they have chosen to move to and do business with.

            Sure, no one can force you to, but don't be surprised when things don't go over well.

            To me it's arrogant to think you can go to another country, ignore their customs and simply assume that everyone will gladly accept your way of doing things.

            This poster moved to the United States and is now doing business with a primarily Western customer base. No one can force him to adapt to Western business etiquette, but there is nothing wrong with expecting him to.

            It's no different anywhere else. If I was to move to Japan I'd understand that there are certain traditions and customs that are different there, and I would learn them and adapt.

            To me that's simply showing courtesy to your hosts and respecting the people and country you're now doing business in.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Ryan,
              While this post might be true on a much larger and more general scale, in the business world, I have to disagree completely.
              Don't argue with me when you're agreeing with me.


              Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,Nope. Because we expect the rest of the world to adapt and do things our way, and we judge them as being somehow inferior if they don't. And because we attempt to impose our definitions of things like "polite" on others.

            Recognizing and accepting the simple reality of cultural differences is not something people in most western countries are good at. Cultural arrogance, on the other hand...


            Paul
            Hi Paul,

            I am the first one to defend cultural differences, and do it more often than I would like to. (Not because I mind, but because there is a need).

            If I moved to, say, Japan, and insisted on not adapting to their way of business and courtesy, would it make the Japanese arrogant for wanting me to adapt?

            Anyway, here's where I'm guessing the difference is...

            It has nothing to do with where I am from, where you're from, where the OP is from, where anybody is from. Why? Because the Warrior Forum IS a culture.

            There's no need to resort to apologetics for arrogant Westeners. In a way, it smacks of the exact thing you're talking about. It's likely not your intention, but there is a subtext that somehow the WF is supra-Western, and by extension, we are wrong because we find the seller rude.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              Hi Paul,

              If I moved to, say, Japan, and insisted on not adapting to their way of business and courtesy, would it make the Japanese arrogant for wanting me to adapt?


              All the best,
              Michael

              Hi Michael,


              It really depends on whom you are trying to do business with. The internet is pretty large and you can do business with many different cultures.

              You probably noticed that there are some neighborhoods, in the US and other western countries, that are predominately Chinese, Jewish, Russian and so on...

              There are plenty of people that don't even speak English in those types of neighborhoods. They don't need too because everything they need is within the neighborhood.

              So why adjust to a "western" culture when they are perfectly fine with their own culture.

              I have seen a lot of what Paul is characterizing as arrogance in my travels. I see it at home with people saying to learn the language if you want to come here. Of course, those same people are not learning any other language when they go to other countries.

              In the end, people may lose some business if they don't handle certain things in certain ways. Our friend is basically saying he doesn't want certain types of customers. We all know that a small percentage of customers will try to take up most of your time.

              That is how I understood some of his remarks.

              Just wanted to throw a few logs on the fire.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                Hi Michael,


                It really depends on whom you are trying to do business with. The internet is pretty large and you can do business with many different cultures.

                You probably noticed that there are some neighborhoods, in the US and other western countries, that are predominately Chinese, Jewish, Russian and so on...

                There are plenty of people that don't even speak English in those types of neighborhoods. They don't need too because everything they need is within the neighborhood.

                So why adjust to a "western" culture when they are perfectly fine with their own culture.

                I have seen a lot of what Paul is characterizing as arrogance in my travels. I see it at home with people saying to learn the language if you want to come here. Of course, those same people are not learning any other language when they go to other countries.

                In the end, people may lose some business if they don't handle certain things in certain ways. Our friend is basically saying he doesn't want certain types of customers. We all know that a small percentage of customers will try to take up most of your time.

                That is how I understood some of his remarks.

                Just wanted to throw a few logs on the fire.
                And big logs they are!



                Your comments are precisely why I prefaced my earlier post by saying...

                "I am the first one to defend cultural differences, and do it more often than I would like to. (Not because I mind, but because there is a need)."

                Let me just say you are preaching to the choir my friend.

                All the best,
                Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author bigg
    Rude - No.
    Selective - Yes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Maddi
    I guess a lesson for us all in this entire thread about how we perceive individuals by they way they communicate over the web and how we should learn to be patient overall [both ends i.e. buyer and the seller] in our online dealings.

    Loving Paul Myers's approach in his understanding of the situation. I for one have learned a lot from this thread.

    Maddi
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  • Profile picture of the author sonicsbros
    Customers are always right, YEAH RIGHT!
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  • Profile picture of the author reynor
    Internet marketing is a faceless business that banks on reputation.
    Poor reputation scares away customers.
    It doesn't matter if you call it rude. direct or blunt...
    No one loves to deal with Internet marketers without manners... :;
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    http://seotutorialfornewbies.com --> Learn SEO in 7 days or less even if you are a newbie.
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  • Profile picture of the author MassiveMarketer
    That is unbelievable! I still believe that a good business should have good customer service. This is how you make your customers happy. If you want to teach or train your customers, have a coaching session or something. Don't be rude!

    It was really good that you were able to keep your cool. He just lost one good customer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Boy
    I find it interesting that most of us prefer to hear a reply to our conversations from a nice person or in a nice way. As soon as we get a straight answer [even when it's polite] that we don't like to our question we get our nose put out of joint.

    The important thing was that you knew where you stood after the first comment. Why not accept that as his response? Instead of getting upset and wasting your time [how much it worth] just move on and keep a positive outlook knowing people are by character, nice, rude and straight.

    For me I always want it told straight without all the fluff. I know where I stand instantly. It's when you get a nice reply from someone who won't tell you the way it really is simply because they are too nice to hurt your feelings that's when you have to be very wary.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    There's a fair degree of cultural relativism expressed here that has arisen out of a confusion between politeness/manners and etiquette.

    Whereas etiquette is differs from culture to culture (and changes over time). Politeness/manners are universal.

    Etiquette involves specific rules about what to do in particular social situations. Like take your shoes off when entering someones home or which fork to use first, etc.

    Politeness/manners is about doing your best to make other people comfortable in a social situation. Your 'manner' is how you are with people.

    There is, of course, some overlap. For example:

    It goes against etiquette not to introduce a newcomer to the rest of the group. It is good manners to show an interest in that person, to make them feel welcome, etc.

    But then...

    If someone transgresses a rule of etiquette it is bad manners to point it out (if the offense is minor).

    Now the WSO guy may have been following a different rule of etiquette but he certainly didn't go out of his way to make his customer feel comfortable. I think you could say he was impolite, had bad manners, etc. But, since God has been mentioned already, Jesus did say we see the splinter in someone else's eye clearer than we see the log in our own.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
    Originally Posted by abundantliving View Post

    It is better to be rude and obnoxious, and not provide any support at all for your products and services, and get rid of 10% of your customers? ... Is it really a BETTER business practice?
    No, at least I don't think so.

    There has to be some kind of customer service.

    I do not like customers who ask questions that are unrelated
    to the product they bought and expect free coaching from
    me, but if they need help with a product they bought, I'd
    be glad to help.
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  • Profile picture of the author donzik
    I believe whatever the case, the sayings that your custormers are always right should be followed, because they (custormers) are the life wire of your
    business
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Originally Posted by abundantliving View Post

    I then submitted a refund request to his staff, with the caveat that - if I didn't get the refund within 24 hours - I would perform a chargeback (I don't usually get this aggressive, but I didn't trust this guy as far as I could throw him).

    Holly darling we both know this bit is inflamatory

    If you had said that to me my beligerent rating would have gone through the roof ... Yours too right!

    Robert
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    • Profile picture of the author abundantliving
      Yeah, I know. I let my anger and frustration get the best of me. He had a right to be pissed at that point.

      Now that I'm back to being myself again, I feel kinda bad about doing that.

      Oh well. Live and learn.

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Holly darling we both know this bit is inflamatory

      If you had said that to me my beligerent rating would have gone through the roof ... Yours too right!

      Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author tyroneshum
    He's totally wrong. I know sometimes customers can also be rude at times but treating you this way isn't right at all. Customers will always stay customers and they should be treated well whether they behave well or not or whether they ask questions relevant to the program or not.

    What customer service reps should do then is to explain (in a good manner) how people will get what they need if the support that they believe in isn't part of their jobs. They should always set a solution or better an alternative for their customers rather than pushing through a refund and letting customers feel they're not appreciated.

    Customer service for me is crucial and whatever situation these customers are in, you who's responsible of giving them information should be nice enough to be worthy of their support as well. It's again, a GIVE and TAKE basis.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
    I saw the original WSO thread and was going to comment on there how rude i thought the OP was.
    Someone asked some reasonable questions before asking and he basically told them that if they are going to question him he didnt want them as customers and they should go away.

    I couldnt believe how rude this was and however good his product was i personally would not deal with someone like this.

    God Bless America for allowing people to live there so they can be as rude as they want!
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    yeah it's a strange one...you should have got out faster. One thing i have learned in life is when you see something you do not like do not fight it..get out and move on. It's not worth the fight!

    BUT he does have a point on customer support. It can be a massive drain no you and your bizz. Didn't john Reese also say "you have to get out of Customer Support?" I am not taknig about being rude or not offering any but whern it distracts you from building a business it becomes deterimental.

    Move on....I am sure there are companies offering what you seek. He wasn't it. No big deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    well if he's maknig $1million a year I'd agree with you.....I'd like to know he's really doing with it. Keep an open mind.

    LMAO, great way to do business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
    Banned
    From my understanding, this happened...

    1) You emailed him for support
    2) He emailed stating he didn't offer support, as a business decision.
    3) You emailed again for support, he offered a refund when he said he didn't provide it.
    4) You said you needed support to be an affiliate and then asked for a refund and threatened a chargeback.
    5) You post a nasty message about him.

    Honestly, I don't think there is a cultural difference. I'm from Illinois and would've told you to get lost too. The guy can run his business however he wants...he told you there was no support and you kept asking the same question over and over.

    He actually did a pre-emptive strike and OFFERED YOU A REFUND before you asked. Yet you still threatened a chargeback because you didn't trust him.

    Sorry, I'm with the seller all the way. Some people you can't please. I don't know how many different ways he can state there isn't support.
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  • Profile picture of the author brieat
    I personally wouldn't be so rude, if anything I would just refund the person's money and go on with my way. Maybe the guy's just having a bad day? Whatever, I personally would move on and make money. No need to get all riled up.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    And some people wonder how American Idol will survive without
    Simon Cowell.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      And some people wonder how American Idol will survive without
      Simon Cowell.

      -Ray Edwards
      It just wont American idol will do the sames as what Pop Idiol did in England, die .
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      • Profile picture of the author rts2271
        Earlier in the thread I gave you some guff and said a couple of rude things. After reading on I think I understand a bit more and wish to apologize.
        But can I ask you this. Why not outsource your support so you just don't have to deal with it yourself. By the customers very admission you have a sexy product, couple that with a outsourced support solution, you don't have to deal with the problem client and you end up getting paid.
        I hope everything works out for the both of you. And again HypeFree sorry for the rude comment on my part. I wish you BOTH much success.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          HypeFree,
          Plus I got an infraction here and could be banned etc.. Not sure 100% what the rules are I'm new to this place.
          Infractions are one member nudging another and saying, "Bad boy. No cookie!" They should be considered as warnings that someone doesn't approve.

          They have no power other than that. Anyone can give anyone an infraction at any time for any reason. Consider the source, and decide if you want to pay attention.

          You haven't done anything in this thread that's against the rules.


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  • Profile picture of the author Cezar R Abadiano
    In any transaction cultural as well as personal differences is often one barrier that's hard to hurdle.

    What you may think as normal can be construed as rude or worst by others and it's not surprising to have miscommunications happen - as the case here seems to suggest.

    When it comes to business interactions it is advisable and recommended that you learn the culture of the party you are doing business with.

    The difference between western and eastern culture, as some have already pointed out here is the way business is made.

    The west is more direct while the east prefer to build relationships first before doing business.

    Which one is better? Who's to say. The thing is understanding where that person is coming from is important so you know why they are acting like that.

    The good thing is that in this thread both affected parties were able to finally realize that why each acted the way they did and the hatchet was buried.

    If only real world situations can be dealt with in the same manner. Often we forget we use our pre-conceived beliefs and use that to pass judgment before fully knowing the reasons why. *sigh*

    But seriously, if they did not understand English the first time, I don't think repeating what you said s l o w l y and in a louder voice will make them understand it any better. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    IMO he's not rude at all. Why because he tells some pop wanabbe who sings like a pub singer they are not nearly as good as thet think they are? We live in such a "sugar coated world" worls these days where we can't even say the truth. I like him. If you are poor he says so..if you are good...he says so and gives you the opportunity of a lifetime. He's an expert in his filed and knows that it takes. Some peopel can't handle the truth....and tha'ts rude? REALLY?

    Mind you he'll probably get sued in the USA for calling someone "rubbish" LOL What would that be? "loss of dignity and self esteem?" $50,000?

    And some people wonder how American Idol will survive without
    Simon Cowell.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      IMO he's not rude at all. Why because he tells some pop wanabbe who sings like a pub singer they are not nearly as good as thet think they are? We live in such a "sugar coated world" worls these days where we can't even say the truth. I like him. If you are poor he says so..if you are good...he says so and gives you the opportunity of a lifetime. He's an expert in his filed and knows that it takes. Some peopel can't handle the truth....and tha'ts rude? REALLY?

      Mind you he'll probably get sued in the USA for calling someone "rubbish" LOL What would that be? "loss of dignity and self esteem?" $50,000?
      There is a major difference in the reasoning of a rude seller and what Simon Cowell does.

      However, as long as we are on this tangent, I agree to an extent. A lot of times the people truly believe they are good (on American Idol or any other show with a panel of judges), and they need a verbal jolt to bring them to their senses.

      It does the contestant more good in the long run. Either by getting them to chase a more realistic dream, or by getting them to take it more seriously and get proper training.

      The other aspect of it is perceived rudeness. Audiences seem to think even the smallest amount of constructive criticism is worthy of being booed. The sad thing is that their boos often drown out the things the contestants need to hear to have a chance.

      Those ideas can, to some extent, apply to rude marketers. Even so, there are still some differences.

      All the best,
      Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      There is another issue raised in the post I just responded to.

      And that is that it's okay to be rude "as long as you're telling the truth". In other words, some people use the truth as an excuse to be rude. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

      You can tell the truth AND be tactful. That doesn't mean you're sugar-coating the truth, it just means you care about other people. At least that's how I look at it.

      That being said, sometimes the best thing to do is to be rude. But only in special circumstances, and with premeditation - not as a matter of course.

      All the best,
      Michael

      p.s. This and my previous post are not singling out any specific person, but rather general comments on constructive criticism vs. rudeness vs. politeness.
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  • Profile picture of the author Xon1286
    Its sad that you'll find many sellers who don't care about their customers, im always more comfortable buying services or training course that have monthly payments cause at least I know they will try and keep me around
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  • There's no business without customers at all ...I remember a line that goes...customer is always right. If we want our business to prosper we must treat customers nicely. If we want repeat orders...provide support that is why call centers were born along with polite, courteous agents.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by André Silverspoon View Post

      There's no business without customers at all ...I remember a line that goes...customer is always right. If we want our business to prosper we must treat customers nicely. If we want repeat orders...provide support that is why call centers were born along with polite, courteous agents.
      Hi André,

      Yes, the customer is always right...

      Unless they are wrong.



      Seriously though, there are times when problem customers need to be let go. This is true online as well as offline. While we may think every paying customer needs to be treated like royalty for the sake of our profits, there are cases where they require so much care that it takes away valuable time from other customers.

      Also, we, as sellers, can decide how much abuse we are willing to take, and what constitutes actual abuse. A customer venting about a bad experience, even if they are using vulgar language, may not cross that line. But, if they start making threats, then that's a problem.

      The good news is that almost every single one of our customers are so awesome that the phrase "thw customer is always right" is true enough.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author garyogden
        Agreed the customer is always right, always treat them with respect.
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  • Profile picture of the author texasmom64
    Well, I for one would not consider purchasing anything from this guy. He sounds like a smart _ _ _ and is one of those people that think he knows everything about everything. He doesn't care about his customers or their needs. I would be asking for a refund just on principal. I hope you get yours.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      Aslo I have purchased products WITH NO REFUND. WOW..... Grow up people! Near my village the people who ocupied us with their stronger army where also Christians like us, they went into our school, then then took kids out on the field and shot them. the world is a horible place, I didn't shoot children I said there is not frikin support for this cheap price. Dont' act like I shot childred in a field or something, grow up!

      Hypefree
      I guess we are all informed by our life experiences and by our sexes as
      well. Read trough this thread and you'll see that the women had a
      stronger reaction (generally) than the men. Women are high on
      relationships so this attitude will sting.

      Most men would think, "then just move on."

      And Hypefree, all Warriors are not from the same place. You seem
      to think that you are addressing people from one country.

      I agree that western culture says to be "nice" even if you're
      dying inside. Other cultures differ. If your business can
      survive with your philosophy, then good for you. But most
      businesses try to please their customers even if they wouldn't
      invite them over for Sunday dinner.

      This is not hypocritical as you seem to think but business wise.

      But, maybe if the Rich Jerk can make it, you may soon be
      showing in videos with super models and Lamborghinis.

      -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      Please make sure you are never my customer we are all better off!

      and no the customer is not always right

      I think all this suger coating is a lie, say what you mean, not lie to be polite

      my philosify is fire 10% of your worst customers and i'm upfront about it. I can't help that people get pissed that they don't like what they hear but i'm upfront about it

      I try to repel all the spoiled and entitled people if i can but I do fail from time to time. That is my buisness model i might change it

      I don't want customers who for a few dollars think they can contact me and ask questions, no if they pay for talking to me then they can.


      BUT NOT FOR A FEW CHEAP BUCKS

      If people dont' get that then fine. if they think i'm to stupid and i don't get it then fine, lets not do buisness

      IF SOMETHING IS CHEAP AND CAN'T PAY FOR SUPPORT THERE IS NO SUPPORT.

      CALL ME RUDE AND MOVE ON TO SOMEONE ELSE

      can I be more direct?

      PS: I have purchased a bunch of product that had no support. Grow up spoiled people, there are companies on this planet that have cheap products that say buy it but not support, no questions etc.. if you don't like it dont buy it there are tons of them. Spoiled whining complainers who return stuff all the time need not apply.

      Aslo I have purchased products WITH NO REFUND. WOW..... Grow up people! Near my village the people who ocupied us with their stronger army where also Christians like us, they went into our school, then then took kids out on the field and shot them. the world is a horible place, I didn't shoot children I said there is not frikin support for this cheap price. Dont' act like I shot childred in a field or something, grow up!

      I have a program for spoiled complainers to where we pamper them but it's not cheap.

      If you are discusted with me, then move on to the next person there are a billion others! One day you might force the hole planet to smile and be fake polite but i'm not one of them. Maybe I'm the last Mohikan! Cheers!


      Hypefree

      Hypefree

      It's time to stop sitting on the fence and say what you mean.

      Harvey
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      IF SOMETHING IS CHEAP AND CAN'T PAY FOR SUPPORT THERE IS NO SUPPORT.


      Hypefree
      I think this is another important point in addition to being able to decide what a "problem" customer is which will be different for different people.

      In the software world there is often NO support OR you have to pay a premium for additional support especially for lower-priced software. I'm not saying that's always true and sometimes there are levels of support (ticket-based, phone based) - but it's certainly NOT "unheard of" to offer no support.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by markquinn View Post

        I think this is another important point in addition to being able to decide what a "problem" customer is which will be different for different people.

        In the software world there is often NO support OR you have to pay a premium for additional support especially for lower-priced software. I'm not saying that's always true and sometimes there are levels of support (ticket-based, phone based) - but it's certainly NOT "unheard of" to offer no support.
        I am actually setting up a smaller priced software product with no support. I will have to deal with some support like installation problems. I will set up a place for users to help each other.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Whether the customer is right or not, they can still be dealt with respectfully.

    Again, being rude for the sake of being rude, is...well, rude.

    Using "honesty" as an excuse to be rude is also rude.

    Whatever happened to respecting one another? Not because they are right or wrong, but because they are human beings?

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      You know Michael when a customer pushes you and is inconsiderate you should not "suck it up" for politness but be rude! The reason more and more people are inconsiderate is because more and more people suck it up for the sake of politness

      I had a guy come to my bootcamp and make demands in the middle of the seminar that are totaly unreasnable like you will do this and that etc.. or I will go and get a refund and leave. So he atacs me, and I have to be polite.

      I THINK I SHOULD BE RUDE!

      So I kicked him out. I think it's the most respectfull thing to do the reason is on his drive home or later he might think how unreasnable and in considerate he was and change. If i'm like other "polite" people and put a fake smaile and give in he will keep being a jerk like he is

      I had one lady demand i rent the room next door or else... So I kicked her out. I'm going to pay 2 more grand so she has more room.

      SO I WAS RUDE TO HER TO

      I had one guy come in and said we should be limited how much profit we make in this industry.

      I KICKED HIM OUT IN FRONT OF 150 PEOPLE AND MADE A 20 MINUTE SPEACH ABOUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS THINKING AND WHY HE IS DANGEROUS FOR THE SOCIAETY.

      Maybe I'm wrong but if we let eveyrone run over us, what kind of world are we building?

      Don't you stop for a second and ask why are so many people so spoiled and so entitled etc...

      You let them. If someone is unreasnable TELL THEM! That is how they learn

      I don't get why people have to smile and be fake polite for everything?

      Be respectfull and be direct! Everything else to me is rude.

      When I ask a direct question and they give the run around with a smile I CONSIDER THEM RUDE!

      Sincerely,

      HypeFree
      You know, HypeFree, I already said there were cases where the customer is NOT right.

      I also said there were times when being rude is the best choice.

      I also said there are situations where getting rid of customers is the best choice.

      So, by slamming me for agreeing on certain points, and for being selective so you can tell me why I'm wrong...then, yes, that IS rude in my book.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    Am I the only one thinking about this?

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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

    My God, everyone says that but few stand for a second to think about that and analyze it. The customer is not always right.
    It's been misstated, in general, and most people don't bother to track down the real meaning.

    You are not allowed to call the customer wrong.

    That doesn't mean the customer isn't wrong, and it certainly doesn't mean the customer's right.

    But when you're dealing with a customer service issue - this is not supposed to be a blanket business aphorism - you cannot call the customer wrong.

    Because once you do, it becomes a fight, and the customer will want to win at all cost. The game suddenly has a winner and a loser, and the customer is going to be the winner. You must never, ever, ever put yourself in a position of being the customer's adversary or enemy.

    Because there are more of them than there are of you, and they can simply shop with your competitors instead.
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  • Profile picture of the author Victoria B
    Awww... I am sorry that you have been through such situation.

    Fishy guy! Been dealing with customers most of my life and as I taught to my little grasshoppers :p

    "The customer is always right, even if he's not".

    Guess I would have dropped the issue much earlier than you did but I understand that was a nasty situation and you just wanted to know about a good product.

    Heck with that guy!

    Cheers!


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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    The Soup Nazi picks and chooses his customers because his soup is considered "the best".

    If the soup was bad, he'd be out of business in a few days. People tolerate his treatment for the privilege of eating the soup.

    Offtopic: I've actually tasted this soup in the frozen section of my grocery store (Publix)....friggin' delicious!

    Ok...back. We all have a right to pick our customers. I certainly did when I was designing websites and graphics. No one is telling you how to run your business, especially not me. However, please keep in mind that word of mouth is a powerful thing.

    9 out of 10 people will communicate a bad experience.
    1 out of 10 communicate a good one.

    Think about the last time you told a story to a friend. Was it a story about how awesome the food was at a restaurant? Or about how bad the service was?

    As a savvy consumer, I run "Google checks" on all potential businesses. If I see an infomercial, I google it for reviews. If I see a new WSO, I wait for reviews from solid members in the community. People do this all the time these days. Please keep in mind that a few bad reviews can destroy your reputation forever. Image is everything in business.

    There are certain things here that upset me from both sides. I won't comment on them because ultimately it boils down to personal opinion. However, the long-term impact of this thread could impact future profits as people "google" your name.
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  • Profile picture of the author Deepak Media
    The customer is the King. Nothing has changed and nothing will change. If the Business person does not have the time to respond to each customer individually, then he should implement systems and people which takes care of the customer experience.

    In fact this guy has wasted more time trying not to give support.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

    You're right. In America we all have the right to be however we want.

    If your true nature is that of a belligerant d***h**d, then we, exercising the same, have the right to tell the world what we think about your behavior.

    Eventually, you won't be selling out seminars. Being customer friendly is an expectation in the marketplace, and you've already garnered a reputation.

    Not only would I not do business with you, I am halfway considering posting an article on my blog of all the publically available information that this discussion has created about exactly what not to do in the social media era. I am craving to use you as a textbook example of someone that not only doesn't "get it", but managed to create a permanent Google archive of quite possibly one of the most glaring examples of laughable customer service and marketing ever encountered.

    I still think the Charlie Wenzell kid from that Pirate 4x4 forum that went viral to millions of people after he tried to scam someone in their classified section takes the cake - buy you sir, you are a candidate to also take a ride on the 4chan/Anonymous train.

    The customer is not always right. But the customer ALWAYS PAYS YOUR BILLS.

    And there's never any excuse for not being polite. Period. Maybe in your third world culture, politeness is some sign of weakness, I don't know. But in the bigger world, politeness is a demonstration of respect - which is never a sign of weakness, but rather one of strength.

    Anyone can be a d***h**d. It doesn't take any special character.
    To be fair, Mr. Hiles, I find your response to be rude as well.

    Being respectful doesn't only extend to our customers, but also to those we disagree with. EVEN if they are being rude.

    All the best,
    Michael

    p.s. My apologies for replacing some of your words with *s, but I found them to rude to reprint.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    The problem, HypeFree, is that you see things as black & white. That isn't how it works.

    There are levels of customer support, and decent people who want nothing more than a simple question answered. You seem to think that EVERY customer who ASKS any question is a problem and out to waste your time.

    They are not trying to be right, or prove you wrong, or asking for a phony smile. Think about it, all they want is to get the most out of what YOU sold them. Like it or not, that ALWAYS comes with some expectations.

    If YOU don't like, then quit selling stuff. Do something where people won't have the nerve to ask you questions.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      Michael,

      Maybe I'm just stupid and don't get it.

      There is no support or anything. there are dozens of products I sell

      THAT CHEAP ONE HAS NOTHING! I say follow the instructions if you can't get your money back it's black and white

      THERE IS NO SUPPORT THAT IS WHY IT'S CHEAP

      Now for other products and services I sell where I get more money

      THERE IS 100% SUPPORT YOU GET MY CELL PHONE EVEN

      That is not what this person atcked me over

      This whole thing started over a cheap product that HAS NO SUPPORT

      THERE IS NO CUSTOMER SERVICE

      FOR THAT PRODUCT I'M NOT IN CUSTOMER SERVICE

      Am I not getting it?

      HypeFree
      Hi HypeFree,

      Maybe I'm the pne not getting it, or maybe I missed something. I had to reread your post to figure it out.

      Now I see one area where the miscommunication may be coming from, and that's learning the many, many subtle shades of English. That's not a bad thing, just an observation.

      Here's what I mean...

      I say follow the instructions if you can't get your money back it's black and white.
      At first, I thought you were saying people can't get their money back. It's all about the use of commas, which many native-born speakers of English struggle with (myself included).

      For clarity, here's what I think you meant...

      I say follow the instructions, if you can't, get your money back. It's black and white

      That's saying if someone is unable to follow the instructions, that you don't offer any support on your cheap product, but they can still get their money back.

      I see nothing wrong with that policy.

      How you handle customers when you tell them does make a difference. Perhaps you won't change, and that IS up to you, but here's something to think about...

      Instead of yelling at them for not understanding instructions, why not remind them that your "cheap" version doesn't come with any support, but if they would like, they can upgrade to the level where support is given? You could maybe offer a small discount to get them to upgrade (perhaps subtracting the cost of the cheap version from the full-priced version).

      Again, those are just my thoughts. And, to be honest, I have gone back and forth on the issue since this thread started.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Signature

      "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      FOR THAT PRODUCT I'M NOT IN CUSTOMER SERVICE
      You're always in customer service.

      There's a level of support you don't have to provide, and you're entirely within your rights to say "sorry, there's no support for that."

      But you're always in customer service.

      If you have a customer in the first place, that customer expects a certain level of service, which extends a little farther than "there's no support, STUPID, read the damn sales page and if you don't like it get a refund."

      The OP wasn't asking for service as a customer, but as a potential affiliate. She wanted to promote your service to hundreds or thousands of people and make you a whole hell of a lot more money. From her perspective, that made her special and entitled her to a little more service.

      Every customer that contacts you feels exactly the same. Yes, your sales page says there's no support... but that's for normal people, and this time it's special. Usually, it's not special, it's just the same old crap from the same old people.

      But sometimes it is. Sometimes the customer that just called you really is important and well-regarded in the industry, or knows someone who is. And because this is a relationship business, that can make or break your career. You never really know whether the person who just called you is the brother-in-law of Frank Kern's top List Control student, who can put your name in front of 120,000 people with the proverbial thumb pointed either up or down.

      And honestly, a little extra time spent dealing with the occasional idiot customer is a small price to pay. That is a risk I, for one, am just not willing to take.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

    i just don't get it

    this lady asked me for support I said no

    if she just moved to the next out of 5000 companies that do this and not mine we would have no problem

    then i got posted here and i feel obligated to fight with you over this

    how am i rude?
    You won't understand where some of the people are coming from. This is a difference in cultures where each side simply won't understand where the other is coming from.
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

      Thanks Thomas,

      Hopefully this is the last time I want this to die, but I feel if I shut up (which I know most want me to) i feel like i'm doing something wrong

      so i folllow my gut

      ok, from a east europe point of view

      I have a cheap product. the cheap product had no support. she asked for support i said no

      I WAS NOT RUDE

      She considered rude

      She posted here

      this started

      How am I at fault?

      NOw what pisses me off many of you say i have to be in customer service

      i'm not in customer service on that cheap product. I am in others. If she was in a diferent product i would have given her a phone number to support

      I HAVE SUPPORT - BUT NOT FOR THAT CHEAP RPODUCT SHE WANTED

      Can we put this to rest?

      :confused:HypeFree:confused:

      In your Eastern European view, does "customer support" include answering pre-sales questions?

      This is a serious question because I am genuinely intrigued by the gaps in this conversation.
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  • Profile picture of the author butters
    Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

    i just don't get it

    this lady asked me for support I said no

    if she just moved to the next out of 5000 companies that do this and not mine we would have no problem

    then i got posted here and i feel obligated to fight with you over this

    how am i rude?
    To me you were rude, she asked legit questions, you gave back hostile answers... Maybe its cultural, I don't personally think it is a cultural matter but at least you have the option to learn from this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by butters View Post

      To me you were rude, she asked legit questions, you gave back hostile answers... Maybe its cultural, I don't personally think it is a cultural matter but at least you have the option to learn from this.
      Have you ever spent significant time living in his culture?
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      • Profile picture of the author butters
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Have you ever spent significant time living in his culture?
        No... Why? What does that have to do with my post.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by butters View Post

          No... Why? What does that have to do with my post.
          You said you didn't think it was cultural and I was wondering how you came to that conclusion.
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          • Profile picture of the author butters
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            You said you didn't think it was cultural and I was wondering how you came to that conclusion.
            I came to that conclusion because he didn't actually answer the question which was actually asked... Not sure if that would come down to a cultural difference or more of a miss understanding of the English language. Would that be classed as cultural? I think cultural as how the majority of people in his region would behave...
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by butters View Post

              I came to that conclusion because he didn't actually answer the question which was actually asked... Not sure if that would come down to a cultural difference or more of a miss understanding of the English language. Would that be classed as cultural? I think cultural as how the majority of people in his region would behave...
              It isn't just that he doesn't want to support this one product but how he is expressing himself.

              His culture is very, very direct. I have seen a lot of people call him rude, in this thread, for that.

              That would be cultural.

              Where he is from they think nothing of telling someone they got fat. In our little western world, that would be considered rude.

              Now, I don't blame him for not wanting 10% (seems a little high) of his customers because I know from experience there is a small percentage that will take up 80% of your time.

              So he wants to get rid of those types of customers.

              He doesn't want to give out free stuff and he doesn't want customers that ask for free stuff.

              I don't see anything wrong with that but a lot of people in this thread thinks he is rude.

              Why is that? I fire customers all the time when they demand too much.

              Holly wasn't just asking pre-sale questions but was also asking for a free product so she could do a review.

              He didn't want her as a customer after that.

              Why is that rude?
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              • Profile picture of the author butters
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                It isn't just that he doesn't want to support this one product but how he is expressing himself.

                His culture is very, very direct. I have seen a lot of people call him rude, in this thread, for that.

                That would be cultural.

                Where he is from they think nothing of telling someone they got fat. In our little western world, that would be considered rude.

                Now, I don't blame him for not wanting 10% (seems a little high) of his customers because I know from experience there is a small percentage that will take up 80% of your time.

                So he wants to get rid of those types of customers.

                He doesn't want to give out free stuff and he doesn't want customers that ask for free stuff.

                I don't see anything wrong with that but a lot of people in this thread thinks he is rude.

                Why is that? I fire customers all the time when they demand too much.

                Holly wasn't just asking pre-sale questions but was also asking for a free product so she could do a review.

                He didn't want her as a customer after that.

                Why is that rude?
                When she asks a more then fair question, especially online and she gets told that she is a bad customers and that all his other customers are so much better because they don't ask questions, to me, that is rude. It is especially rude since she already bought the product... (To me.)

                I haven't seen the sales page, did it say don't ask me any questions about anything? Or did it clarify that he wont answer any questions, I don't know but from what I have seen so far, it is rude to me.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by butters View Post

                  When she asks a more then fair question, especially online and she gets told that she is a bad customers and that all his other customers are so much better because they don't ask questions, to me, that is rude. It is especially rude since she already bought the product... (To me.)

                  I haven't seen the sales page, did it say don't ask me any questions about anything? Or did it clarify that he wont answer any questions, I don't know but from what I have seen so far, it is rude to me.

                  You mean she bought the product after he told her he didn't want her as a customer. After she had already asked for a free product, correct?

                  Heck, she threatened him with a charge back if he didn't refund immediately.

                  Then complains on a forum about it.

                  I would say she was a bad customer in this situation.

                  How many times does he have to tell here there is no support for this product? He asked her if she wanted a refund because there was no support.

                  Now you are telling him he is rude for not supporting this product when he stated multiple times there was no support.
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                  • Profile picture of the author butters
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    You mean she bought the product after he told her he didn't want her as a customer. After she had already asked for a free product, correct?

                    Heck, she threatened him with a charge back if he didn't refund immediately.

                    Then complains on a forum about it.

                    I would say she was a bad customer in this situation.
                    Bad customer or not still doesn't give him to be right to be rude... This is just my opinion of course, maybe other people think it is ok to react how he did, fair enough, it just isn't my way and this is just my feelings.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by butters View Post

                      Bad customer or not still doesn't give him to be right to be rude... This is just my opinion of course, maybe other people think it is ok to react how he did, fair enough, it just isn't my way and this is just my feelings.

                      He was direct. I don't see him as being rude. I still say this is where the cultural differences come in.
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                      • Profile picture of the author butters
                        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                        He was direct. I don't see him as being rude. I still say this is where the cultural differences come in.
                        You could possibly be right that it may be cultural, it's been an interesting post, I am sure something was learnt from all this Anyways, im out .
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                      why didn't she just ask what she wanted pre sales and not buy?
                      She didn't know what service you were promoting until she bought.

                      Once she discovered what service it was, she had a very reasonable question about how to get support if someone had a problem with it, because that's important to American customers. If you say "my service does X," a major part of my buying decision is "if it breaks, how do I get it fixed?"

                      And your answer was basically "you don't, and if you don't like that you can get a refund."

                      Now, fast forward to a hypothetical customer who buys your service through her affiliate link. He's scheduled a webinar for 150 customers. It's five minutes until the webinar starts, and he can't log onto the service because it keeps saying "503 Service Unavailable" when he clicks the sign-in button.

                      If he can't get his webinar up and running in the next five minutes, that damages his business. He's going to blame you for running the service... and he's also going to blame her for recommending it.

                      It is part of her job to find out in advance whether he can get his webinar running in those five minutes.

                      And your answer was basically "no, go to hell, just get a refund."

                      Which is a perfectly valid answer, but it was also a perfectly valid question. Nobody is wrong here. You can certainly tell your customers to piss off, and your customers can certainly contact you for support.

                      I think a lot of this was a miscommunication about what kind of hand-holding was required. Holly didn't want to get support. She wanted to know what to tell her customers about support. And on some level, I suspect your answers would have been different if this had been clear.
                      Signature
                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author 2oursuccess
    Guys like this will not last in any kind of buisness they are here strictly for the money and do not care about customer service
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

    this lady asked me for support I said no
    Nobody's saying you didn't have any right to do it. They're just saying you shouldn't have done it. They're observing quite accurately that because you upset this one customer - whether you were within your rights or not - you have lost several other customers.

    Most of them have so few customers, or have at some point had so few customers, that to lose a customer is a big blow to their income. And to lose several, that's just horrible. They're imagining that your business is theirs, and that you are just like they are.

    If you can't get them to step outside that and understand that you are not them, and your business is not their business (double meaning quite intentional there), your defence is falling on deaf ears. Most people are so intensely self-involved, the idea that other people are not them confuses and frightens them.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Russ Emrick
    I just read 4 pages of opinions and ended up wondering, apart from being offended by the anti-western/American bashing if I learned anything.

    I had a boss teach me that the customer isn't always right but they are always the customer. For me the Golden Rule applies: I try to treat everyone how I want to be treated.

    As a VP of sales for an international firm I have worked all over the world. Americans in fact are the least demanding about having to do things "culturally". We often get perceived that way because, being so isolated, assume there are no differences and blunder dramatically. As to arrogance I think that is a funny brush to use on Americans when I hear French and other world leaders talk vs. their actual accomplishments or GDP

    And for the record, being an American or living here doesn't give you the right to be any way you want. You can't be a rapist, a thief, or a murder. In my generation rudeness wasn't acceptable either because cans of woop ass were still sold. Today's political correctness prevents that and I think the world a much coarser, ruder place.

    Hopefully those rabbit holes are plugged. Are there any business lessons here?

    For me these posts prove my Dad's rule: you have the right to cross the street but if a car hits you you're still dead. His "you can be dead right principle" has saved me a lot of grief in life. Can we pick our own customers? Sure. Can we refuse service, support? Sure. Can we be frank and express ourselves without regard to how other people feel? Sure. Can we boast on how many people we offend and who don't like us? Of course.

    Let me know how that truck feels.
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  • Profile picture of the author CianMcCarthy
    Banned
    If someone tries to be rude to me I just go reply with a cheery email and a :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Seems to me if you let someone else deal with any support issues this wouldnt have taken up so much of your time, as it stands now it would have been cheaper to deal with Holly than it was to spend this much time on this threrad

    I have to say if i personalyy was dealing with customer support my middle finger would be well exercised... Fortunatley I was smart enough to realise that giving this thankless job to someone else would save me time and money

    Hype free get a support person to deal with everything including the non support emails then you will never have to have this conversation again

    Robert
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    • Profile picture of the author Trapped
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Seems to me if you let someone else deal with any support issues this wouldnt have taken up so much of your time, as it stands now it would have been cheaper to deal with Holly than it was to spend this much time on this threrad

      I have to say if i personalyy was dealing with customer support my middle finger would be well exercised... Fortunatley I was smart enough to realise that giving this thankless job to someone else would save me time and money

      Hype free get a support person to deal with everything including the non support emails then you will never have to have this conversation again

      Robert
      Now that's a post that can serve as "lesson I learned" on this thread. Identify your qualities, and outsource the part that you can't handle but that it can make a HUGE difference in your business model.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

        A SKILLED PROFETIONAL THAT I PAY THEY KNOW HOW TO DO THIS STUFF THAT YOU PEOPLE ARE ATACKING ME ABOUT

        i put the wso and that is the only case someone can email me

        i should not contacted her back just ignored her that is what i should have done

        well i learned my lesson i was stupid to do what i did

        but i made bigger mistake then this not 1 time but like 200

        so no big deal, why is it a big deal to you people?

        HypeFree

        Making statements that you are better not handling support is not attacking you.

        You are being melodramatic now and should calm down.

        This is a forum and we talk about stuff on here.

        We are talking about this transaction and it allows others to learn from it.

        This isn't just about you at this point.
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        • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
          Hypefree
          I honestly don't know whether I like you or not.

          Whether you know it or not, some of your posts are extremely rude. I don't think you mean them to be, but between the cultural differences, the language differences, and the fact that saying something in text as opposed to speaking or being in a face to face situation with someone, there's a helluva lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding going on.

          This thread has gone way past the fact that you don't offer customer support. That's fine. You don't have to if you don't want to.

          But it's very possible to be direct and say something assertively without being rude. Take a look through some of the posts made just in this thread and you'll see (I hope) what I mean. If not, why not just catch one of us on Skype or maybe even one of your customers that you do get along with, and ask them to maybe help you put your point across a little more politely?

          You may not think it's worth your time. It may or may not make any difference to your business and how much money you earn, but sometimes it's nice to make relationships just for the sake of making friends.

          If you're going to live in America, if you're going to be a part of the WF, why not try to get along with folks? the vast majority of folks here on WF are really nice, genuine people. They're not posting to attack you, but simply trying to understand where you're coming from and help you see a different perspective.

          Ok, I don't have the fancy 'words' that some of you other guys do. But I've learned a lot from the thread so thanks to everyone for posting.

          Hypefree, I wish you luck and hope you see this thread as a chance to learn and not just as a bashing.
          Signature
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          The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

          melodramatic

          i wish i never made the wso. I hope none of you ever talk to me or do buisness with me ever. Please now you know who i am, write down my name and avoid me. Fair enough? You can't say I scamed you into anyting, it's better for you lets keep it that way.




          "This isn't just about you at this point."

          when they say something you should do support you should outsource how is that not about me?

          HypeFree

          HAHA, for some reason you think a lot of us want to do business with you. You have nothing of value to me so I won't need to write down your name.

          Yes, you are acting like a drama queen now.
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          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            HAHA, for some reason you think a lot of us want to do business with you. You have nothing of value to me so I won't need to write down your name.

            Yes, you are acting like a drama queen now.

            {watching carefully for the slightest misstep}




            Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

            ...I should realy be rude and say screw you Thomos but I don't

            HypeFree

            Thomas, I am sure this is just a cultural difference. No harm no foul.

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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              {watching carefully for the slightest misstep}







              Thomas, I am sure this is just a cultural difference. No harm no foul.


              haha I deserved that one. I was about to say I didn't call him any names because of the context.
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              • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                haha I deserved that one. I was about to say I didn't call him any names because of the context.

                As some in America say (and this goes for HypeFree too...)

                "It's all good in da' hood."

                If we can't roll up our sleeves and have a good ol' fashioned throwdown every now and then, how on earth are our skins ever going to stay thick enough to be marketers?



                HypeFree, for what it is worth, I spent some time looking at your stuff, and you are an interesting guy.

                My grandmother would probably tell you to "cool your jets" - which is an old fashioned euphemism for calm down.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                  As some in America say (and this goes for HypeFree too...)

                  "It's all good in da' hood."

                  If we can't roll up our sleeves and have a good ol' fashioned throwdown every now and then, how on earth are our skins ever going to stay thick enough to be marketers?


                  I don't mind eating some shoe. lol
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                • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                  Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                  True, I should put things in perspective I watched this show about kids being happy in this village in Ethiopia, great life but every 7 years the rain doesn't fall and half of them die

                  I can take some insults here.

                  As for buisness even i know it's over so i'm fine with that


                  HypeFree
                  I think you're okay. A little hyper, but otherwise have things to offer to this community.

                  Get a thicker skin and stick around. There really is a market and money to be made around these parts when you understand the playing field.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                    Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

                    Thanks but if I make money here I will make 20 times more then what I'm making with my current marketing that I have been doing the past 6 years.

                    You guys here are much tougher then my regular prospects/clients

                    HypeFree

                    Selling marketing to marketers is always like running naked through the tiger pit at the zoo with some freshly butchered sirloin strapped to your butt cheeks.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      Selling marketing to marketers is always like running naked through the tiger pit at the zoo with some freshly butchered sirloin strapped to your butt cheeks.

                      Reminds me of college.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                      HypeFree,

                      Your best bet at this point is to stop replying and defending yourself. It's quite clear that half the people making comments to you didn't read past the first post to see where you and Holly already ended this.

                      The biggest thing you should learn is that you are not going to make everyone listen, believe or understand your point of view. So you'd be better off to stop wasting the energy trying to defend yourself.

                      You have no reason to defend yourself. A good chunk of the initial problem seems to have been a misunderstanding - you and Holly were not communicating clearly.

                      At this point, if you just stop replying to those people, this thread will go away a whole lot faster than if you keep trying to defend yourself. There are those who are going to think what they want, no matter what you say, so don't even bother trying to convince them.

                      Tina
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            • Profile picture of the author ozduc
              Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

              or should i just shut up and go away?

              HypeFree
              If you want the thread to die that's probably the best thing to do.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by HypeFree View Post

            What ever I just said stop postin Thomas and stop calling me names that is inapropriate

            how is that not about me? I should realy be rude and say screw you Thomos but I don't

            HypeFree

            I don't care if you tell me to screw off. Regardless, you already did tell me in a non direct way.

            You don't control this thread and people will post their comments if they want to.

            You are acting like a child having a temper tantrum. That is definitely not a cultural problem but a personal problem you are now exhibiting.
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      • Profile picture of the author nubchai
        Wow Holly sorry you had to go through that. The follow-up discussion is interesting too. From my reading of Holly's post she was asking what support there would be if there was a problem with the webinar product. His response that there was no phone support doesn't fully answer her question. But his business philosophy is a mind blower. He's willing to give up 10% of his customers rather than answering questions. That's what it comes down to. If he had nicely explained the evident lack of any support for his product he "might" have kept her as a customer. Now he's lost Holly as a present customer. But he'll also lose out on future purchases of other WSOs he might offer. Very short-sighted no matter what country you come from.
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  • Profile picture of the author Russ Emrick
    Hyper - LISTEN, READ CAREFULLY. Two ears - one mouth.

    SHE WAS ASKING ABOUT THE EXPENSIVE PRODUCT. She had pre-sale questions about the WEBINAR SOFTWARE not the cheap product she bought.

    How many times does that have to be said, at least 10 times in this thread alone.
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  • Profile picture of the author numba8
    geeeez. Not the way to handle a customer, in any industry.
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  • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
    Just read all this thread (after hastily making a post - then deleting it).

    Why do people keep excusing this complete lack of customer service to cultural differences?

    This particular situation may not be black and white, but HypeFree's message is:

    I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THE CUSTOMER..

    ..I am only interested in my sales figures.

    HypeFree, PLEASE use this language in your sales copy. You say, why 'lie' to be polite..there you go. Why lie in your sales copy by omitting your opinions on customer service or by pretending to be interested in the customer.

    What a joke. People actually defending this guy??

    This is my ONLY post in this thread. I think people have wasted enough time and energy without me wasting any more of mine with pointless back-and-forths.

    ..and HypeFree, STOP posting - you're not doing yourself any favors. You're just strengthening the fact you have a serious attitude problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Damien Roche View Post

      Just read all this thread (after hastily making a post - then deleting it).

      Why do people keep excusing this complete lack of customer service to cultural differences?

      This particular situation may not be black and white, but HypeFree's message is:

      I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THE CUSTOMER..

      ..I am only interested in my sales figures.

      HypeFree, PLEASE use this language in your sales copy. You say, why 'lie' to be polite..there you go. Why lie in your sales copy by omitting your opinions on customer service or by pretending to be interested in the customer.

      What a joke. People actually defending this guy??

      This is my ONLY post in this thread. I think people have wasted enough time and energy without me wasting any more of mine with pointless back-and-forths.

      ..and HypeFree, STOP posting - you're not doing yourself any favors. You're just strengthening the fact you have a serious attitude problem.

      Sigh... some people need to learn how to read better.
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  • Profile picture of the author goodfriend2u
    Banned
    You are a very patient person. Because I would have asked for a refund after the first time he was being rude.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adrian Rautenbach
    Read your story and really don't know how people like him stay in business and make money it really does not make sense. The most important thing is maintaining a good relationship with your customers you really don't just want one sale. You want your customers to come back time and time again.
    Looks like this guy lost allot of business from you.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Adrian Rautenbach View Post

      Read your story and really don't know how people like him stay in business and make money it really does not make sense.
      It's the same reason I gave for a different phenomenon in another thread:

      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      But in the world? There are more customers than I will ever meet. So many more, in fact, that I don't have to worry about running out of them. I can never bring every customer into my store that would like to shop there. I can never bring 100% of the people who would like to read my blog to my web site where they can read it. I just can't. I'm lucky to bring one percent of them.
      And, like most things, this is a double edged sword.

      On the one edge, it's what allows people like me to feel perfectly comfortable teaching others how to do what I do and get better at this whole IM thing.

      And on the other edge, it's what allows other people to feel perfectly comfortable treating others like crap... because it's not like they're going to run out of customers.

      I think what's getting lost in people's criticism of HypeFree is that he feels quite strongly about his job being "make a good product." Once he's done that, he doesn't think he should have to keep adding exactly what you want to it over and over. The product is what it is. If you wanted a more custom approach, he has more custom approaches, but they cost more - and it's not fair to his other students if you get the custom approach without paying for it.

      He might be new here, and he might not have the most perfect English, but it seems pretty clear to me that he's been in this business a while and not done too shabby in it.

      And besides, if anyone's going to criticise his English... they should do it in his native language. Just to be fair.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        It's the same reason I gave for a different phenomenon in another thread:



        And, like most things, this is a double edged sword.

        On the one edge, it's what allows people like me to feel perfectly comfortable teaching others how to do what I do and get better at this whole IM thing.

        And on the other edge, it's what allows other people to feel perfectly comfortable treating others like crap... because it's not like they're going to run out of customers.

        I think what's getting lost in people's criticism of HypeFree is that he feels quite strongly about his job being "make a good product." Once he's done that, he doesn't think he should have to keep adding exactly what you want to it over and over. The product is what it is. If you wanted a more custom approach, he has more custom approaches, but they cost more - and it's not fair to his other students if you get the custom approach without paying for it.

        He might be new here, and he might not have the most perfect English, but it seems pretty clear to me that he's been in this business a while and not done too shabby in it.

        And besides, if anyone's going to criticise his English... they should do it in his native language. Just to be fair.
        Hi C,

        I certainly hope I'm not one of the people you were thinking of when you wrote that.

        Just in case...

        I was pointing out that the use of commas may have made his message more easily understood. It was a matter of trying to explain where some of the miscommunication is coming from. I was trying to help.

        As far as your last sentence goes, I couldn't agree more. Any time somebody that speaks a different language, say French for example, asks me how good their English is, I always respond with, "better than my French".

        I'm a lover of language, all languages. They fascinate me.

        So, if I was one of the people you had in mind, you can cross me off that list.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          I certainly hope I'm not one of the people you were thinking of when you wrote that.
          Far from it. Those of us who love language can generally spot one another, you know.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Those of us who love language can generally spot one another, you know.
            Language lovers of the world, unite!
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Wow. In the last 3 pages, I haven't read much new at all. Just a fulfillment of Caliban's remark about creating adversarial situations. Some of this is fueled by people who read the first post and feel the need to reply before seeing the rest of the discussion.

          Russ,
          I just read 4 pages of opinions and ended up wondering, apart from being offended by the anti-western/American bashing if I learned anything.
          I have a good friend who has an occasional tendency to get depressed. When that happens, he becomes aggressive about my general cheerfulness. It can be quite annoying to some people. If I point that out to him, am I anti-Mike?

          He certainly wouldn't say so.

          Every culture has tendencies that people in other cultures find bothersome. Some of those things are actual flaws. They do not get corrected by being ignored.

          Asking someone to be aware of a bad habit doesn't make you "anti" anything. Not if it's intended to help that person. Or group.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Wow. In the last 3 pages, I haven't read much new at all. Just a fulfillment of Caliban's remark about creating adversarial situations. Some of this is fueled by people who read the first post and feel the need to reply before seeing the rest of the discussion.
            Paul, maybe you should lock the thread before Godwin shows up...

            ~Bill
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Bill,
              maybe you should lock the thread before Godwin shows up...
              If Mike Godwin showed up here for this thread, I would be quite surprised.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Bill,If Mike Godwin showed up here for this thread, I would be quite surprised.

                Paul
                Too cryptic for the masses I take it...

                ~Bill
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                  Too cryptic for the masses I take it...
                  That's what makes inside jokes fun.

                  I'd be more impressed if Bill Gosper showed up, but I think that's even less likely.
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                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Kibo!



                    (A 'tale' of Usenet...)
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Kibo!
                      I'm Kibnostic; I've never really been sure Kibo exists.
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                      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        I'm Kibnostic; I've never really been sure Kibo exists.
                        Theological discussions not allowed. Take it to alt.religion.kibology


                        Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            ...Some of this is fueled by people who read the first post and feel the need to reply before seeing the rest of the discussion....
            Guilty as charged your honor.
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  • Profile picture of the author ydsimple
    Very interesting story thanks for sharing. And no matter what he shouldn't be so rude to you. Just you know he could say: "I dont have any customer support and if you don't like it we not gonna work together". And that's it. Who does really need a story about why he came to America. Really funny )
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Just you know he could say: "I dont have any customer support and if you don't like it we not gonna work together". And that's it.
      He said that. Did you read the OP? Or any of what followed?
      Who does really need a story about why he came to America. Really funny )
      He didn't include that in the original exchange. He brought it up after the thread was posted. It seems relevant to me.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Learner63
    One Quick Response to this....I have learned and worked with the guy the poster is talking about for just about 5 years. How lame to bash for English, he is not new to the country (what a comment...I can't even say how it boils me to think people in the tech field are slamming people who they think aren't American..I'm American and I don't know the proper word for this, does it start with a B or an R??). I come in here and read now and then and learn but when I read this...OMG...I also read we aren't supposed to bash people directly...The person she is bashing is very direct, lucky for me I'm not a sugar cube and have not melted yet. If I want my money back on anything he has sold me he always refunds (his staff) no problem. But I will tell you what he doesn't do, he doesn't blow a bunch of fake sunshine up my skirt..ahhh I can't even write an intelligent response I am so upset. Someone says...we will give you your money back, work with someone who can serve you better and you are upset...??? ugghhh...People or Sheeple, never just agree to be agreeing. I only even registered to say how upset I am to read this post. I hope this thread dies before the moderator who kicks people off for BASHING others see's this. GO in Peace, take life with a grain of salt......
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Story doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of people get into Internet marketing hoping that it is totally hands free as far as customer support goes. Sounds like he got over his head and didn't have the people skills to handle your questions properly.

    Why you wasted your time continuing to write back to him is beyond me. Then taking the time to post it all here for public viewing.

    I hope you don't let every knucklehead vendor you run across on the web steal your time that way. You'd never get anything done!
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  • Profile picture of the author eddywebs
    lol , amazing story !
    well I always felt that you should treat your customers as gold !
    There would be a point of having a loose attitude if he is selling an cutting edge technology (which he is actually not )
    bottomline I think he just dont want more business .
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Man this thread was a lot of reading!

    I am not one for a lengthy explanation of how I percieve things so I will only leave the two things that kept coming to mind as I read through this thread.

    1. Tact and Bearing, many times it is not what you say but HOW you say it.

    2. It seems to me that people who stand on a soap box and shout about "their" rights and how they have this right or that right are the first ones to trample on others rights.

    PS: We all know that everything ever written or said on the internet is 100% truth.
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  • Profile picture of the author BenAgan
    Well, I think the guy was rude. Definitely. But to him, he'd rather have a lifestyle where he makes 90% of his customer's happy without having to do much in the way of support. Which is understandable, as it's the other 10% that are a real pain. Still no call to be rude about it, you can always "Fire Your customers quietly" as Kiyosaki puts it.

    When 10% of your customers create 80-90% of your workload, then maybe some previous posters can understand why it makes sense to lose customers.

    In this situation though, the guy would have been able to save himself time by writing: "I'm sorry, we don't provide any telephone support, if you have difficulties, there's little we can do to help other than ask people to refer to the videos on how to use it, if that's unacceptable, then I understand, take care :-)".

    Far far better, and accomplishes his goals.
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