Paypal initiating new Refund Fee?

55 replies
Paypal just updated their policy again and if I am reading this correctly they are now going to be charging sellers with a fee for each refund they process on top of the money refunded to the buyer.

Quoted from paypal's new policy.

  • Amendment to the PayPal User Agreement
Refund Fee. Section 8.5 (Additional Fees) is amended to add a new refund fee. If you refund a Purchase Payment, we will retain the Fixed Fee portion of the Purchase Payment Fee. The buyer's Account will be credited with the full Purchase Payment amount and the Fixed Fee portion of the Purchase Payment Fee will be deducted from your Account in addition to the amount of the refunded payment. The Fixed Fee will depend on the currency of the Purchase Payment and is listed in 8.4(c).

Anyway that is how I am reading this.

There are some other changes that may impact your policies on your sites too, you may want to read through the new changes and update your policies as needed.

FYI: I am not an attorney so don't ask me what or if you need to change anything in your sites policies, I dunno.


- T
#fee #initiating #paypal #refund
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    So in other words, if I sell something and it's refunded, I actually LOSE
    money?

    Am I understanding this right?

    If so, that's bull sh*t...pardon my French.
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    • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      So in other words, if I sell something and it's refunded, I actually LOSE
      money?

      Am I understanding this right?

      If so, that's bull sh*t...pardon my French.

      Yup. That is how I am reading it.

      Plus, legally you can not refuse to give refunds, unless someone knows something I don't especially with credit card rules and consumer protection etc...


      - T
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It's a small fee and not surprising this would be added. When a payment is processed and then reversed - those transactions are processed by paypal so it's not surprising they would add a small fee to cover those transactions.

        Those with the occasional refund request won't have a problem with this new fee. If you have a significant number of refunds it may be the motivation you need to fix your sales process, target your ads better or improve your product.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          It's a small fee and not surprising this would be added. When a payment is processed and then reversed - those transactions are processed by paypal so it's not surprising they would add a small fee to cover those transactions.

          Those with the occasional refund request won't have a problem with this new fee. If you have a significant number of refunds it may be the motivation you need to fix your sales process, target your ads better or improve your product.

          kay
          It's not the money. It's a matter of principle. I get very few refunds, but
          almost all of them are from 3rd world countries where fraud is rampant.

          IOW, I know these are bogus refunds.

          So looks like I'm now going to have to find a way to block these
          transactions, because I'll be damned if I'm going to let these people
          steal from me and then end up having to pay for them to do it.

          No f****g way.
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          • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            It's not the money. It's a matter of principle. I get very few refunds, but
            almost all of them are from 3rd world countries where fraud is rampant.

            IOW, I know these are bogus refunds.

            So looks like I'm now going to have to find a way to block these
            transactions, because I'll be damned if I'm going to let these people
            steal from me and then end up having to pay for them to do it.

            No f****g way.

            That is easier to do than you may think. You just need the IP blocks of the countries you don't want access to your order process.

            Have your programmer either redirect these IP's to another site, a notice on your site, an article or something instead of your sales letter OR when they click the order button have it redirect to an error message etc...

            If you use DLGuard or some other script from 3rd party check with the creator to see if there is way to do this or ask for this new feature.

            - T
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          • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            No f****g way.
            There's not enough characters in that sentence.

            I see you're cutting back already...

            ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          It's a small fee and not surprising this would be added. When a payment is processed and then reversed - those transactions are processed by paypal so it's not surprising they would add a small fee to cover those transactions.

          Those with the occasional refund request won't have a problem with this new fee. If you have a significant number of refunds it may be the motivation you need to fix your sales process, target your ads better or improve your product.

          kay

          Yup. May impact the WSO section though, dunno. LOL

          - T
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      • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
        Originally Posted by Terry Crim View Post


        Plus, legally you can not refuse to give refunds, unless someone knows something I don't especially with credit card rules and consumer protection etc...

        I don't know why I keep saying this. I guess I am thinking of past situations with certain clients that refused to give refunds after explicitly stating they do refund no questions asked in their sales letter etc... Then having to deal with the credit card companies that force refunds and depending who you talk too they say that it's against visa/mc terms to not offer refunds. Then call back talk to someone else and they say if it is stated in your TOS or on the site somewhere and you can prove they agreed to the policy etc etc etc...

        Then you have Clickbank and other similar services that force refunds no matter what upto 60 days is it? 90? Depending on your credit card I think it is 45 days up to 6 months.

        Either way it really comes down to the card holders bank and your merchant processing provider and Visa /MC over ride ability which I have seen it come down to Visa telling the merchants bank refund the transaction or you lose ability to use our cards. That does it. Merchant gets pulled, or very least has to pay the fees and lose the sale. A lot of things have to happen there but I have seen it happen, interesting process really.

        Anyway. I have had merchant accounts, even sold merchant accounts via various providers.. I should say merchant processing services, check verification, all that stuff.

        If you do decide on the no refunds policy make sure that you clearly state it and can prove that your customers agreed to it. Don't hide it on some TOS page in fine print. Place it clearly on your site in the sales letter and have a checkbox that stores the time stamp and identification of the buyer so later you can prove they did agree. Force the process so they can't continue without checking the box and do NOT prefill it in for them through html code.

        My 3 cents on something that is off topic to this thread but sort of isn't.

        By the way I am not giving any legal advice here because I am not a lawyer and if you were paying attention, I don't really know much about legal issues when it comes to this stuff. All I can do is share my somewhat varied experience with this stuff and let you decide to use or ignore what I post here. Take it with grain of salt I guess, not as gospel only possibility.

        I am tired and need to go to bed. LOL


        - T
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
    Fees: The following fee for Refunds will be added:
    Refund *

    After August 10, 2010, the Fixed Fee portion of the Transaction Fee will be deducted from your Account at the time of the refund, in addition to full payment amount that is refunded to the buyer. Fixed fee portion of the original Transaction Fee.

    (The Fixed Fee will depend on the currency of the payment, so if the payment was made in USD then the refund fee is $0.30.)

    * Excludes Direct Payments and Virtual Terminal Payments where an American Express Card is used.
    Here is the refund fee
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    Looks like PayPal is getting greedy to me...... I guess the CEO just got a raise of .30 for every refund that is initiated by PayPal itself or an actual buyer.

    Seems to me that people now might see even more refunds happening because of this one sided greedy PayPal move.

    Either way I still have to use them until finding a better source and one that can be incorporated with my payment gateway which at this time only supports paypal.
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    • Profile picture of the author timpears
      Originally Posted by EWGQDD View Post

      Looks like PayPal is getting greedy to me...... I guess the CEO just got a raise of .30 for every refund that is initiated by PayPal itself or an actual buyer.

      Seems to me that people now might see even more refunds happening because of this one sided greedy PayPal move.
      It has been a long time since I had a merchant account, but as I remember it, they always charged $0.25 or
      $0.30 PER TRANSACTION. So, you will pay that for the charge, and when you refund it, you pay an additional $0.25 or so for that transaction. I have wondered how PayPal could keep absorbing that. I don't know about others, but I always use a card when I use PayPal. It gives me more control over unscrupulous sellers. I had to charge back $75 about a month ago when I ordered something and never got it. They just ignored my email, so I went to PayPal and did a dispute. PayPal refunded me with no problem, which was a big surprise as they typically tell you so sorry. PayPal is now making you pay those fixed costs of about a quater or so.

      Who knows, if someone has a problem with this and is subject to large amounts of refunds, they might just decide to improve their products or not sell junk. I don't think any seller can eliminate their refunds entirely, so this will just become the cost of doing business I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Also, I've noticed lately that the you've made a payment emails come with a clickbank like notice that you have 45 days to dispute this transaction.

    George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
    Well PayPal is owned by eBay so of course they are going to try to screw people with as many fees as possible. I'm surprised they don't have a fee to collect the fees. I'm getting so tired of being nickel and dimed to death but what can you do?
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Dean
      Originally Posted by Rich Struck View Post

      Well PayPal is owned by eBay so of course they are going to try to screw people with as many fees as possible. I'm surprised they don't have a fee to collect the fees. I'm getting so tired of being nickel and dimed to death but what can you do?
      "fee to collect the fees"!

      I will contact Paypal for you - they missed that.
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      • Profile picture of the author tom03
        It will be interesting to see how this works as I can maybe 1 or 2 every few months (due to fraud). Not too big of a deal, just focus on creating a quality product no one will return.

        Not much you can do about fraud payments though.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    The moral of the story I guess is not to get any refunds. They were gross looking before. Now they are just downright hideous.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aj Wilson
    Yes it sucks... but if you're on top of your game...

    You'll provide maximum value, with the increased effort into providing high quality products... Instead of selling rehashed garbage.

    Maximum Value, Keeping your customers happy and getting "smarter"
    with the delivery of your product/s to reduce refunds will be essential.

    i.e. Daily/Weekly/Monthly or "Step by step" content drip feeds, etc

    Although that WONT Stop serial refunders,
    it should reduce refunds and encourage "smart" marketers to lift their game...

    And just make MORE Money to cover any fees etc

    When eBay lifted their fees, some saw it as a bad thing and slung mud,
    others saw it as a good thing, as it weeded out alot of crappy "under cutting" competition.

    It all depends on your perception of the issue i guess.

    I think it sucks personally,
    but at the same time... "What can we do about it?" ...

    Thanks for the update Tim,
    Have no idea what's goin on in the world till you here about it here
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  • Profile picture of the author rapidscc
    Dang....

    another hit we all have to bow down to and simply accept..or
    find another way to get paid.

    How will the payment processors react to this policy?

    One of my income streams is processed by an ecommerce site
    and the ecommerce site then pays me. What will happen
    when I get refunds. Will the ecommerce site shoulder
    the charges? They give me every penny during paydays, I wonder
    how they will handle this.

    I think paypal don't know the domino effect this will cause
    on online transactions.

    O well, I guess we'll see.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    Oh no! Another tax write-off!

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      So looks like I'm now going to have to find a way to block these
      transactions, because I'll be damned if I'm going to let these people
      steal from me and then end up having to pay for them to do it.
      Maybe that is the point. Currently you have nothing really to lose if someone from a fraud ridden country buys/refunds/buys/refunds...but if it costs you a fee for that refund, sellers will no longer accept payments from some areas or will find ways to add a physical component to their digital product to limit refunds. Or maybe sellers will find a way to add their own "refund fee" to pass on the cost to refunders. Can you imagine a restocking fee for ebooks?:p

      I do wonder how this will impact paypal used by clickbank which has to be the refund capital of IM.

      kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
      Originally Posted by Terry Crim View Post

      Yup. That is how I am reading it.

      Plus, legally you can not refuse to give refunds, unless someone knows something I don't especially with credit card rules and consumer protection etc...


      - T
      HI Terry,

      Not sure where you live... but you do NOT HAVE to give refunds if you provide a downloadable product or service. (Obviously you must actually provide the service, not just intend to).

      Credit cards allow you to charge back - but there is no law that says you HAVE to refund that I'm aware of in the US or Canada (I'm in Canada, but roughly 85% of my business is US, 10% Europe/Australia and 5% Canada).

      The only one that "forces" you to provide a refund is Clickbank, "maybe" a few others (that I know of).

      Yes - consumer law in Canada (probably US too) allows people 48 hours to "cancel" or "back out of" a contract... not quite sure how that applies to refunds - depending on what I offer, I rarely allow refunds because when I did, we had serial refunders and fraudsters.

      Now, I make it very clear on my sales letters if there is a refund policy OR f there is NOT. I make them agree to the terms - that if there is no refund policy, there are no refunds.

      You might get the odd chargeback, but for a chargeback to actually go through, you can win it easily by proving that you provided the service and/or product download.

      With digital data: You can't return software opened to a store, unless it's honestly damaged (and then they'd only exchange it).

      Even Amazon will not allow a book to be returned unless it is damaged (or the wrong one was sent).

      With a service: you can't return a service that has been provided. (Tell me what newsletter you can buy advertising from, then ask for a refund after it's up? or can you go to the mechanic and say you weren't crazy about his work so you want a refund? Nope.)

      Sales do drop a little - but frankly I'd rather have people who honestly want what I have, rather than ones who will come back 6 months to a year later (or more! - believe me, it's happened) - asking for a refund because they "need the money" or they can't remember what they bought so they might as well get a refund.

      Sorry, I'm probably opening up a whole can of worms here lol - There are other ways around it too - like if you don't offer a refund - be clear, but also make sure you actually support your users so that they get the absolute BEST service/product support they've paid for.

      I'm not crazy about paypal adding the refund fee - but when you consider how reasonable they are (in my opinion) in comparison to other systems, I count it at a cost of doing business. (I rarely get refund requests though, and on the rare occasion I do - if I feel it's legitimate, then I will do it - but usually I can provide the solution to help the person so they don't NEED the refund).

      I can count on one hand the number of refunds I issue in a year, and I haven't had a legitimate chargeback in 2 years or more.

      (btw - if you DO have a refund policy, chances are you WILL get more chargebacks too, because they totally ignore HOW to get a refund - they just issue a dispute at paypal - which hurts your reputation - or issue a chargeback from their credit card).

      When it's clear - and you make them "agree" that there are no refunds BEFORE they purchase, you cut all that down hugely.

      (By making them agree, you can clearly state just as you would on your terms page - but this time BEFORE your order button...

      "You agree by purchasing XXX product that there are NO refunds. I'm sorry but we must do this to protect both you and us. (Fraud costs everyone). So if you have the intention of purchasing this product and then asking for a refund so you can have it free - don't bother buying".

      I saw one of the 'gurus' (I say that term lightly - the guy was a big marketer, I just can't think of which one at this moment :rolleyes - use that on his pages. It cuts down on a few orders, but it also probably cuts down on your service / transaction fees because having less chargebacks and refunds keeps your fees down. (Less risk to the merchant company)

      Anyway -just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

      Again - I just think of this as a cost of business. Maybe paypal has been losing too much in refund fees themselves since every transaction DOES have a cost. (Frankly I was surprised they didn't do this YEARS ago).

      Amber
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    We might have to charge a "restocking fee" unless that's in their TOS as a no-no.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayPeete
    Wow, that's terrible...
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    This isn't a new fee, they're just not refunding the $0.30 fee that is already added to every payment they process. It sucks, but that's life. I'd rather eat that 30 cents than have them increase their processing fee by a percentage point. One will cost me less than a dollar a month, the other would cost me hundreds. It still costs Paypal to process these transactions, whether you get a refund or not. They did their part, so why should they issue a refund for services they rendered? You pay them to process transactions. They did that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Whisonant
    Well you always see 30 day money back guarantee (less shipping and handling) all the time.

    So why not? 30 day money back guarantee (less PayPal refund fee)

    Re's
    Rob Whisonant
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    This is very similar to how merchant account gateways handle transactions. They charge you on every transaction regardless of whether its a debit or credit.
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
    I guess if this concerns people just tack an additional dollar or two to the price of your products.

    I think it would be wise for everyone that is using paypal to process their transactions to go read the updates to paypals policy themselves. They changed some other stuff you might want to be in the know about too.


    - T
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    First off...

    This is completely normal

    Paypal has been giving merchants an easy ride for years now. They are simply moving business into this century.

    Merchant accounts have this as standard.

    I can't believe anyone would be complaining about it, some people have a very funny, and close minded view of their "business". Making some cash online, and running a business are two very different things.

    Jay

    p.s. I just wanna say a big thank you to Paypal. You rockz!
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    • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
      After just processing a couple of refunds myself last night and this morning, I can tell you it's not just .30 - it's .30 plus 2.9% of the purchase price, the same fees we're paying on each transaction.

      So I guess for very expensive items that could hurt a lot, especially for people who get a lot of refund requests.

      It's not going to affect me much, most of my products are lower priced and I rarely get refund requests anyway. If they start getting excessive though I think it could be a problem (it would indicate a problem anyway in that case!)

      Wendy
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      • Profile picture of the author timpears
        Originally Posted by WritingMadwoman View Post

        After just processing a couple of refunds myself last night and this morning, I can tell you it's not just .30 - it's .30 plus 2.9% of the purchase price, the same fees we're paying on each transaction.
        Wendy
        Well that is a different story. What I thought I read was the fixed costs. The 2.9% is not a fixed cost. PayPal is making a profit on refunds if they are charging this.

        Also, I thought I read this was to start in August. This doesn't seem right that they can charge on transactions that happened prior to the date of institution. But what do I know?

        Also on the clickbank issue, this will be a large cost to them as they get a massive amount of refunds. I will bet that PayPal is most of their transactions. So are they going to pass this on to their publishers, or drop PayPal? I am interested to see what happens. I would like to see them drop PayPal, but that would more than likely affect their business. Time will tell.
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  • Profile picture of the author timer
    Finance costs. Offline businesses have allsorts of costs and work to profit margins of 20% or less. Online profit margins are far,far higher. Paypal offers easy access to a merchant style account with no capital needed. That involves lots of risk and cost.


    If you're not happy with paypal get a proper merchant account and see what they charge you. That's the joy of a free market, vote with your feet so too speak. Otherwise accept a minute extra cost and carry on. Paypal isn't perfect but it's enabled huge numbers of people to start a business.

    By the way I don't work for paypal and am in no way associated with them!!
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  • Profile picture of the author invreon
    Both paypal and ebay suck your money...

    Just look at what happens if you sell something on ebay:
    1. Listing fee $0.35-$10+
    2. FV Fee $0.15+ (10% of items value up to $100 - I think)
    3. Paypal fee $0.10+

    It's getting quite ridiculous!
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  • Profile picture of the author jdwfg4
    Something else I just found out is...if you try to save some money buy paying someone with a personal payment instead of commercial payment, and need to dispute it, they basically won't allow you to dispute it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by jdwfg4 View Post

      Something else I just found out is...if you try to save some money buy paying someone with a personal payment instead of commercial payment, and need to dispute it, they basically won't allow you to dispute it.
      <Gasp> You mean that if you try to cheat them out of their fee by choosing to lie and say it's a personal payment, they won't let you turn around and dispute that payment? Who'da thunk?:rolleyes:

      Tina
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  • Profile picture of the author BBBB
    paypal sucks from merchant's perspective. Anyone with or without reason can ask for a refund and get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Biggy Fat
    Now PayPal needs to do something about scammers fraudulently filing disputes for digital products.
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  • Profile picture of the author warrior2008
    Moneris gave us 30K monthly processing volumn with NO credit check and that was HUGE given the fact that First Data wanted to start us out at 5k per month. Get a good merchant broker and he will get you in.
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  • Profile picture of the author warrior2008
    Great Info! I just spoke to Clickbank and they were unaware of this. I was wondering how it would affect the Vender, Affiliate, and Clickbank on this fee since they use PayPal. They are looking into it now... I referenced this link here for them.

    cms.paypal.com/ca/cgi-bin/?&cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/upcoming_policies_full

    They thought it was a rumor but now they are concerned. Hope I did not jump the gun Warriors just hoping they are working out the solution to this.

    Cheers,

    Warrior2008
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    • Profile picture of the author RRMerz
      If the 30 cents is killing your deal, you have a pretty thin deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Here is something else for you to think about. Occasionally, I ask business associates to buy my product from me, for the purpose of making sure everything is working; before I go public with the offer. Immediately after I refund to them.

    This new $.30 fee will be a business expense and one well worth it for me to make sure everything will work for my customers. As a cost of doing business (be sure and check with your accountant) it will likely be a tax deduction for you.

    I honestly do not understand why folks bitch about a legitimate "cost of doing business" fee. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    Wait I have another option for you. Pass the cost through to your customers, just like all offline business do when their bottom line is affected. Then your customers can complain you nickel and dimed them to death.

    Ken Leatherman
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I suppose they could just charge $1.00 plus 7.5% like Clickbank does, then they wouldn't need to keep that whole 30 cents on the occasional odd refund.
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    • Profile picture of the author warrior2008
      OK, now I see both sides and my head just went BOOM! I guess we will see what this means.

      @Michael... Thanks :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I have a suggestion for those who are up in arms about all of these awful fees charged by eBay and PayPal...

    In fact, it will keep you from ever having to worry about it again.

    Ready?

    Here it is...

    If the fees are just too much, and actually making you MAD about being "nickeled and dimed"...

    Then...

    Quit.

    Simple.

    Work for somebody else.

    Have a boss that takes care of all those nasty deductions.

    Work in somebody else's business if you're not cut out to work in your own.

    Sure, nobody likes to pay more than they have to, but it's not like eBay or PayPal are hiding their fees. They tell you up front exactly what they are. When you avail yourself of their services you agree to THEIR terms, not the other way around.

    So, you can spend your time bemoaning a nickel here, or a dime there, OR you can use that same amount of time to improve your income and decrease expenitures in other areas.

    You aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

    Here's the other thing people are missing. They seem to think if they give a refund, it's a zero sum, no-harm no-foul transaction. Not me. I look at a refund as an actual loss of income.

    So, would I be better off focusing on lowering my $37 refunds, or complaining about $0.30 (and/or 2.9%)?

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      I have a suggestion for those who are up in arms about all of these awful fees charged by eBay and PayPal...

      In fact, it will keep you from ever having to worry about it again.

      Ready?

      Here it is...

      If the fees are just too much, and actually making you MAD about being "nickeled and dimed"...

      Then...

      Quit.

      Simple.

      Work for somebody else.

      Have a boss that takes care of all those nasty deductions.

      Work in somebody else's business if you're not cut out to work in your own.

      Sure, nobody likes to pay more than they have to, but it's not like eBay or PayPal are hiding their fees. They tell you up front exactly what they are. When you avail yourself of their services you agree to THEIR terms, not the other way around.

      So, you can spend your time bemoaning a nickel here, or a dime there, OR you can use that same amount of time to improve your income and decrease expenitures in other areas.

      You aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

      Here's the other thing people are missing. They seem to think if they give a refund, it's a zero sum, no-harm no-foul transaction. Not me. I look at a refund as an actual loss of income.

      So, would I be better off focusing on lowering my $37 refunds, or complaining about $0.30 (and/or 2.9%)?

      All the best,
      Michael

      Michael, I do see your point and I even agree. And yes, I was one of
      the first to cuss my head off.

      It's not about the money. Hell, if I have 3 refunds a month, it's a lot.

      It's about those %&^% who buy stuff, refund it 5 minutes later because
      they're from those "I can steal all that I want countries" and NOW in
      addition to them literally stealing from me, I have to pay for them to do it.

      It's not the money...it's the principle.

      And that's what I'm up in arms about.

      But no, I'm not going to quit. Not for what's going to amount to $5 a
      month, if that.

      But I'll be damned if I'm going to make it easy for the serial refunders.

      If they want a refund, they'll have to go directly to PayPal and put in
      a complaint.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Michael, I do see your point and I even agree. And yes, I was one of
        the first to cuss my head off.

        It's not about the money. Hell, if I have 3 refunds a month, it's a lot.

        It's about those %&^% who buy stuff, refund it 5 minutes later because
        they're from those "I can steal all that I want countries" and NOW in
        addition to them literally stealing from me, I have to pay for them to do it.

        It's not the money...it's the principle.

        And that's what I'm up in arms about.

        But no, I'm not going to quit. Not for what's going to amount to $5 a
        month, if that.

        But I'll be damned if I'm going to make it easy for the serial refunders.

        If they want a refund, they'll have to go directly to PayPal and put in
        a complaint.
        Fair enough, Steven.

        For the record, I am looking at PayPal fees (or any business-related fees) and serial refunders as separate issues.

        And I understand that we will have to actually pay to deal with those walking dungheaps (apologies to real heaps of dung for the comparison). In the long run, though, I think this could be just the thing that starts the process for eliminating such refunders.

        Also, your posts weren't even a small part of what prompted my post, but I do see your point.

        All the best,
        Michael
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author jbode
    Awesome now we have even more of a reason to hate on the 'serial refunders'

    If you get 100 refunds a year that's $30 (assuming it's USD) ...I don't see myself reaching the 100 refunds per year limit any time soon - lol!
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  • Profile picture of the author CindyLathim
    I found this to be interesting...

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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by CindyLathim View Post

      I found this to be interesting...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ3OgpV3FnA
      I found it interesting for a couple of reasons...

      1. I'd like to know if the nameless, faceless whiny waste of space who did this video paid the royalties for using the music. Somehow, I doubt it...

      2. The bit.ly link in the video now points to the PayPal page where the update is posted, not the video creator's little protest page.

      I'm giving PP credit for exercising restraint and only keeping the fixed portion of the fee already paid rather than charging an additional fee on top of the original.

      While I understand, and agree with, Steve W.'s objection on principle, this is just another expense to build into your pricing. Shopkeepers learn to live with a certain amount of pilfering because the effort and expense of preventing all shoplifting would hurt the business more than the pilferage.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        ** UPDATE ON CLICKBANK **

        I just received this from Jen at Clickbank regarding the PayPal refund change.

        ************************************************** *

        Hi Steven,

        Good to hear from you! I hope all is well for you too!

        I double checked with our Controller, and he said he is in the process of checking this
        out with our PayPal representative, but he does not anticipate that it will later any of
        our existing policies.

        He did say that the proposed rate change for all PayPal users is only the fixed portion
        of the fee (the 0.30) not the 2.9%.

        I hope that helps!

        Best regards,

        Jennifer


        ************************************************


        So it is NOT 2.9% of the sale price plus 30 cents. It's just 30 cents
        per refund...PERIOD.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          ... but he does not anticipate that it will later any of our existing policies.
          Steven,

          Beware the weasle statements...

          This one certainly has the earmarks of doom written all over it...

          ~Bill

          edit: ("later" should be "alter", I'm guessing...:p)
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            Steven,

            Beware the weasle statements...

            This one certainly has the earmarks of doom written all over it...

            ~Bill
            Yeah Bill, I know. But Jen's been pretty straight with me for over 7 years
            now so I'm hopeful.

            But I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

            Either way, it's JUST 30 cents per refund.
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            • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
              I stand corrected guys, after reading Steven's latest post here I logged back into my Paypal account to double check what I thought I saw last night - oops... what I thought was a charge was actually them giving me back the money for their fees, like they've always done when I refund someone. I thought they were charging me the fees.

              I was wondering why they started with the fees early when it wasn't supposed to be until August!

              So hopefully Steve is right and it will only be a flat 30 cents per refund, that would save a few pennies anyway!

              Wendy
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  • Profile picture of the author warrior2008
    Thanks Steven. Yes, when I let them know yesterday that was the first they had heard it and the rep said it was just a rumor until I had the acct rep go to PayPal's page. I gave her a bit of my coaching and stated that it might be best to investigate first before pushing the venders off of the phone with any old line without first checking the facts out. She apologized. I have been on the phone with Securites and the old timers too a lot for the last 8-10 years.

    Cheers,

    Warrior2008

    @Steven... Just gave you a Thanks Buddy !!!
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