Have I been taken for a RIDE

14 years ago

Seems like you paid a bit of money, so the expectation should be compatible for all browser (newest and older versions). There are a lot of CSS tricks your designer should know for it to look 'similar' across all browsers.

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TKO

14 years ago

I did pay a bit of money.. My audience and the majority of my niche are not tech savvy. Most are using Internet explorer (older versions) Bugs, bugs, bugs.

I'm seriously considering putting the old design back up. What a joke.

Sorry for the rant warriors, just wanted to know if my expectations were realistic, that my blog should work the same in all browsers....

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

There are 2 problems here. I am speaking as a former web designer. By the
way, part of the reason I got out of it was because of browser compatibility
issues.

Okay, let's start with the original site.

The reason it may have looked the same in multiple browsers (though I
doubt you were able to test all of them) could be because the site itself
was very simple in design, didn't have any XHTML, DIV tags (work differently
in different browsers) or other funky things that can totally mess up a
web page in different browsers. The updated site MIGHT have some of
those things that WILL make it appear different in different browsers.

Having said that, your designer should have tested it in the main browsers
of today and their most up to date versions (IE 8, FF 3, etc.)

You can't expect him to test every browser. It's not possible.

Now, here's where things get dicey.

Some code just doesn't work in some browsers, or doesn't display the
same in all browsers. I had a major headache between IE and Netscape
back in the day.

I'm not saying for sure that your designer didn't drop the ball. All I'm
saying is that it is quite possible that he did everything reasonably
possible to give you a functioning site that SHOULD work in at least
the main browsers and their most up to date versions.

If they don't (meaning IE 8, FF3 and maybe Google Chrome don't work at
all) then you have a legit beef. But if it is a case where older browsers or
more obscure browsers are the only ones that DON'T work, then what he
is saying sounds reasonable.

A solution is to have the site simplified if possible. But if you need certain
functionality, that may not be possible.

Bottom line: He may very well be on the up and up.

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TKO

14 years ago

Thanks everybody for the help and advice.

The problem is (and why I'm banging my head against the desk) he claims that he doesn't see what I see. How could this be? Surely a website, from the same browser should look the same.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TKO

Thanks everybody for the help and advice.

The problem is (and why I'm banging my head against the desk) he claims that he doesn't see what I see. How could this be? Surely a website, from the same browser should look the same.

Are you both looking at the site through the same browser version?

If so, and you know this for sure, have him take a Camtasia or Camstudio
video of it and send it to you to show you that it's different and working
there.

If it's different for him than for you, there is a reason.

Also, are you both using the same screen res?

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TKO 14 years ago

@yukon, we did do a test site and I was told that the bugs would rectify themselves on my server. Pfffft ( not a word, rather a sound effect)
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- TKO 14 years ago
  
  @ Steven
  
  I've sent him screenshots and the version of the browsers. He claims he can't see the problems. The fact he dismisses my claims and the claims of my readers, infuriates me...
  
  The site works fine on my MAC, but my readers have been sending me emails non stop. Bugs, bugs and more bugs.
  
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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TKO

Thanks everybody for the help and advice.

The problem is (and why I'm banging my head against the desk) he claims that he doesn't see what I see. How could this be? Surely a website, from the same browser should look the same.

Your designer is probably running the highest video settings he can use with his video card. Your video settings are likely different from his. That would explain why the same browser can appear different to different people.

He dismisses your complaints and your screen shots, because he feels that he has already done his job, and you are just being a pain in the arse... He doesn't care about how it looks for others... If it looks good on his machine, that is all that matters in his brain...

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

I don't know if I would go so far as to say you're being taken for a ride, but your frustration is completely understandable.

It's not your visitors' job to make sure the site looks right in their browser. You may not be able to get your site to look right in every single browser somebody may be using, but asking visitors to upgrade is a great to get them to move on to another page. I would.

If it isn't too late, let your designer know the problem and that it is their job to fix it.

All the best,
Michael

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David Louis Monk

14 years ago

Is your blog based on a WordPress? It seems to be the preferred choice.

I do not know enough about what causes the difference only to know that the html sites I have built do look differen in Firefox and Internet Explorer. A good designe should be able to make the site usable across different browsers.

That said, I do not always see the benefit of upgrading to new versions of browser straightaway. The software companies not only force us to upgrade but they appear to become more intrusive in forcing us to do things we do not want to do.

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Irnes Jakupovic

14 years ago

" He claims that people must upgrade to the latest browser(versions)."

This is something that you should not stress if you are paying someone to do it for you. Even though you may come off as a jerk I would give him an ultimatum like make it work or I will find someone else who can. Considering a a BIG chunk of people don't care to update their browsers this is a big problem to have.

Check out the stats here:
Browser Statistics

The really old IE 6 still has a big market share.

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

[DELETED]

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Thomas,

This is a classic: "Best viewed using XYZ Browser, version 1.2.3 or better."

Any designer who gives you a product that doesn't work in a relatively recent browser, and tells you that you have to get your visitors to upgrade, is not worth the time it takes to fire them. That is a sign of the kind of techno-arrogance and incompetence that will keep coming up in various ways for as long as you deal with them.

Dump him and get someone who has at least part of a clue on hand.

Paul
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tpw

14 years ago

It is partially a CSS problem, but it could simply be that the HTML does not define the Width and Height properties of an image.

I found the second to be the biggest problem in getting one of my sites to display correctly across a range of browsers...

What I notice here more than anything else is differing expectations between you (the client) and the service provider. You expect everything to work cross-browser, your designer thinks that should not reflect on the quality of work he has given you.

People are not going to upgrade their browsers, just so they can look at your website...

This is a very common problem when dealing with some web designers... Many come into the equation with an ego the size of Alaska... And in their ego moments, they believe people should naturally use the top-of-the-line software that they use... But that is not living in the real world...

In the real world, non-techies seldom upgrade... Shoot my mom has been working with computers as long as I have, but she is still using the 640x480 screen width !!!

She is not a stupid woman, but she sees no reason to upgrade her video settings...

There are other web designers who only care to make the website work with the most up-to-date version of Internet Explorer... Believing that since they use IE, it is the only browser other people should use also...

A good web designer will make a website work for 5-6 browsers and the most common versions of each... Yes, that requires a bit more work on the designers part, but a web designer that values its customers will do what is required to make this happen for its clients' websites... And the others... Well, they will tell you that your customers should upgrade to the most up-to-date browsers...

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

It is partially a CSS problem, but it could simply be that the HTML does not define the Width and Height properties of an image.

I found the second to be the biggest problem in getting one of my sites to display correctly across a range of browsers...

What I notice here more than anything else is differing expectations between you (the client) and the service provider. You expect everything to work cross-browser, your designer thinks that should not reflect on the quality of work he has given you.

People are not going to upgrade their browsers, just so they can look at your website...

This is a very common problem when dealing with some web designers... Many come into the equation with an ego the size of Alaska... And in their ego moments, they believe people should naturally use the top-of-the-line software that they use... But that is not living in the real world...

In the real world, non-techies seldom upgrade... Shoot my mom has been working with computers as long as I have, but she is still using the 640x480 screen width !!!

She is not a stupid woman, but she sees no reason to upgrade her video settings...

There are other web designers who only care to make the website work with the most up-to-date version of Internet Explorer... Believing that since they use IE, it is the only browser other people should use also...

A good web designer will make a website work for 5-6 browsers and the most common versions of each... Yes, that requires a bit more work on the designers part, but a web designer that values its customers will do what is required to make this happen for its clients' websites... And the others... Well, they will tell you that your customers should upgrade to the most up-to-date browsers...

So I suppose this forum should change its coding so that I can view the
site on my 800 x 600 screen res without having to scroll back and forth
to read posts.

Sorry...not reasonable.

You can't expect a web designer to do what you're asking. The good ones
might come close, but with so many people using 800 x 600, 1280 x 720
and who knows what else, you just can't please everybody.

If that were possible, I wouldn't have to use this forum the way I do.

You design your site for what the majority of people use...period.

Otherwise, you drive yourself stark raving mad.

Again, I am speaking as a former web designer. It is not as easy as you
suggest it is, nor is it practical.

Having said that, if the site isn't working in the top 3 browsers with the
top 2 screen resolutions, then you have a problem, because THAT is
reasonable.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

You design your site for what the majority of people use...period.

Otherwise, you drive yourself stark raving mad.

That was my point Steve... Try to make your website work for the majority, and don't worry about the few who don't have the settings that will make your website work for them...

To be honest, anyone viewing my sites on a 640x480 setting will have to scroll left to right like you do, to see my pages. But anyone using at least 800x600 will not be disappointed with my designs.

Those really tech-savvy using really wide screen resolutions might wonder why I don't fill the screen, but they won't be able to complain that the site doesn't display for them nicely.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

That was my point Steve... Try to make your website work for the majority, and don't worry about the few who don't have the settings that will make your website work for them...

To be honest, anyone viewing my sites on a 640x480 setting will have to scroll left to right like you do, to see my pages. But anyone using at least 800x600 will not be disappointed with my designs.

Those really tech-savvy using really wide screen resolutions might wonder why I don't fill the screen, but they won't be able to complain that the site doesn't display for them nicely.

Well you see, the problem is, if I'm understanding Thomas' post correctly,
is that his customers are NOT on the latest browsers and versions. If
that's the case, how can he expect it to work for them?

Maybe I'm just not understanding the problem, but here is what I would
do if I were Thomas right now.

I'd contact the web designer and ask him point blank...

"What browsers, versions and screen resolutions did you design this to
work on?"

Then, after he responds, assuming he's given him a reasonable number
(at least 3 browsers and 2 screen resolutions for each) test them out
himself on those browsers and screen resolutions and see if they work.

If they do, you really can't ask for more.

If they don't, you demand that he make the site work for the browsers
he claims they will work in.

And then send HIM a video of how it is NOT working the way he says
it should.

If he then gives you a song a dance, go to your payment processor
and put in a claim.

I just don't think we're getting the whole story here, that's all.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

That was my point Steve... Try to make your website work for the majority, and don't worry about the few who don't have the settings that will make your website work for them...

To be honest, anyone viewing my sites on a 640x480 setting will have to scroll left to right like you do, to see my pages. But anyone using at least 800x600 will not be disappointed with my designs.

Those really tech-savvy using really wide screen resolutions might wonder why I don't fill the screen, but they won't be able to complain that the site doesn't display for them nicely.

Bill, here is exactly what Thomas said, taken directly from his 2nd post.

Most are using Internet explorer (older versions) Bugs, bugs, bugs.

If that's the case, how can he expect his site to work in their browsers
if they are in fact older versions?

Am I being unreasonable here?

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Hamish Jones

14 years ago

Are they being helpful or just fobbing you off?

If you are being fobbed off it may be time to go and find another designer.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Bill,

Those really tech-savvy using really wide screen resolutions might wonder why I don't fill the screen

[chuckle]

There's nothing "tech-savvy" about having high end hardware, or assuming that anyone with older software is less sophisticated. If you design for those criteria, you're not "smart." You're just lazy.

Someone like yourself who makes sure that the overwhelming majority of visitors can view and use the site easily is the one who's tech-savvy. It takes more brains and more skill to do it that way.

Paul

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

One other thing, and I know I'm probably going to get shot for this, but if
I know that most of my target market is a bunch of old folks who are
probably still using IE 6 (like me), then I would have specifically told my
designer up front, design this for IE 6.

If he replied to me that he couldn't because he doesn't even have it on
his computer, then I would have known to go elsewhere.

Look, I get the Google YouTube message everybody that my browser is
no longer supported (FF 2) and that's only one version behind 3.

Am I supposed to expect Youtube to make their site work with every
browser with all the functionality they have?

Again, if I am being unreasonable, somebody tell me I'm being
unreasonable.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

One other thing, and I know I'm probably going to get shot for this, but if
I know that most of my target market is a bunch of old folks who are
probably still using IE 6 (like me), then I would have specifically told my
designer up front, design this for IE 6.

If he replied to me that he couldn't because he doesn't even have it on
his computer, then I would have known to go elsewhere.

Look, I get the Google YouTube message everybody that my browser is
no longer supported (FF 2) and that's only one version behind 3.

Am I supposed to expect Youtube to make their site work with every
browser with all the functionality they have?

Again, if I am being unreasonable, somebody tell me I'm being
unreasonable.

Steven,

I don't think anyone has said that you are being unreasonable, because you are not being unreasonable...

I agree that we are not getting the full story...

I suspect that when TKO put in the job order, he may have not told the designer that he needs it to work on IE6... Because he did not know to make that stipulation...

I also suspect that the designer is being lazy and arrogant... He doesn't want to fix it for his client, because that would require more work...

When you are in the freelance market, sometimes you lose on a job... But if you are a true professional, you will turn that loss into a lesson learned, so that you don't make the same mistake twice... IE6 and 800x600 are still widely used, and whether he makes this website work for it or not... the web designer is on the brink of winning a lifetime customer or losing him forever...

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TKO

14 years ago

Once again warriors, thank you for your comments.

Intenret explorer 7 for windows Xp isn't an old redundant browser, S-U-R-E-L-Y.

Based on my stats, 35% of my traffic are using this browser (internet explorer). If I had a magic ball and thought for 1 second, this would happen, my pockets would be a little heavier today.

So the bottom line, I have not be taken for a ride?

My readers come first, telling them to upgrade doesn't sit well with me warriors. Might have to spend some more money to get it fixed across most current browsers. XP IE7, redundant already, who would of thought.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TKO

Once again warriors, thank you for your comments.

Intenret explorer 7 for windows Xp isn't an old redundant browser, S-U-R-E-L-Y.

Based on my stats, 35% of my traffic are using this browser (internet explorer). If I had a magic ball and thought for 1 second, this would happen, my pockets would be a little heavier today.

So the bottom line, I have not be taken for a ride?

My readers come first, telling them to upgrade doesn't sit well with me warriors. Might have to spend some more money to get it fixed across most current browsers. XP IE7, redundant already, who would of thought.

In my view, you have not been taken for a ride...

But that does nothing for your readers who are getting a garbage website display...

I would seek out another party to fix what the previous designer did, to make the existing design work for IE7 and any other non-standard browser that your visitors use widely.

Javascript and CSS are not my strengths, but I do know that both can be customized to display differently for different browsers and configurations.

A good coder can make your current design attractive for the bulk of your readers by customizing the display for their browsers. Just be specific with him about what coverage you need to have at the end of the job, so that there are no more oversights...

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Kay King 14 years ago

Is this compatibility issue why you sometimes see a note at the top of a site "this site may not display correctly in ..."? Just curious as I have seen that on a few sites.

If the designer didn't know about old browser use to begin with, his reluctance may be additional conditions added after the work is done. Is that a possibility?

Some interesting info in this thread. But if a site can't be compatible across all browsers, it isn't really buggy is it? It's just not compatible.

Sorry - simple questions from a simple mind.

kay
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cypherslock

14 years ago

This is why I got out of web design for clients. Too much of a hassle. Any web page designed to proper coding standards today won't work exactly the same in IE 6 as it will in IE 8. Remember for older browsers the code base (what the browser runs on) is outdated. I understand about getting it to work right in some versions of IE, but for any browser out there? not possible.

Unless you want do go back to inefficient code. And yes, for those that don't GET tech stuff it can seem like arrogance. In your designer's case maybe. But if someone comes to me and asks for a site I certainly won't be designing for IE 5,6. That said, get someone else if it is that important to you. But respect the time he puts into what he does, for it is NOT easy and ever changing. Or, if you truly feel you can't get it to your specs, learn and do it yourself. Then, you will be sure.

Steve: You are not unreasonable. Technology and coding practices advance just like everything else.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Any web page designed to proper coding standards today won't work exactly the same in IE 6 as it will in IE 8.

There is a difference between "not exactly the same" and "bad enough to create complaints." If it takes "inefficient code" to make the visitor happy, I'd rather go with that than with what some designer or standards group says is "best."

It has been universal in my experience that any site that doesn't work for a significant number of visitors, and for which the designer blames the browser version, can be redesigned by a more competent coder to work for nearly everyone.

Yes, there will be some percentage whose software is so old that designing for it breaks the thing for everyone else. I understand that. I also understand that the demand among tech types for the newest and shiniest is not in the best interest of most site owners.

Paul
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Daniel Deegan

14 years ago

Tell your designer to add custom css tags that tell how things should be laid out for each browser type. If your paying him well anyway it shouldn't be much additional work. I did this my self to correct some simple IE issues. So someone who does this for a living should know how to set this up easily. I also paid someone 35$ on rent a coder to do this for me a year or so ago...

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bgmacaw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TKO

I want my blog to work in all browsers, I thought that would be a given.

This is something you do need to specify up front. Just keep in mind that a specification of "all browsers" can give you a very stripped down site. It's best if you specify the exact browsers and versions you want your site to work with and if you want to site to degrade gracefully for older browsers. This gives the designer an exact idea of what they need to do rather than having to guess about your intentions.

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turntwo21 14 years ago

Every designer should make sure his work is cross-browser compatible before submitting.

Send me a PM if you think I can help.
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willoh

14 years ago

From a non-tech savvy perspective, if I pay someone to design a website for me, I expect it to work regardless of browser. It is not my goal to study browser limitations - in that case mind as well learn code myself and do the site directly. It's 2010 not 1994.

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MassiveMarketer

14 years ago

If the site doesn't open on any browser, that doesn't look good. Its the designer's job to make it work with whatever browser. Your guests won't adjust to your site. You might temporarily put it back to its original state and find someone else fix the current one you have.

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Searchedterms

14 years ago

With my past experience working with designers ,most of them think that it all works fine on their end which is not the case,i have had major issues with designers not fixing site site compatibility issues..my best bet is get another guy to fix your site ASAP ..
Most of the issues will be CSS issues and usually takes a couple of days or maybe even less to fix.
I have used a guy in the past to fix issues compatibility issues if you need his contact let me know.

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David Louis Monk

14 years ago

I will add my experience of a couple of problems not that this will answer the compatability problem.
Firstly I had an occassion when in IE8 I could not view any website correctly and I then found out that IE8 settings had been changed on my PC. I have out that there is a restore to default settings provision (that was good of the designers) and when restored to default everything went back to normal.

I later had to do a re-installation of IE on another computer and so installed IE7 but now I get intrusive messages wanting me to upgrade to IE8 which I am reluctant to do.

The other peculiar problem I had with one of my websites was that the video on my landing page played in FireFox but not in IE8. I examined the code and thought it had something to do with loading the Adobe shockwave player but could not see anything in the code to see why. I was eventually persuaded to download the original template I started from and reload this onto the server and thankfully the problem was resolved but the reason why was not explained and could only be put down to a corruption of the code somewhere.

These two examples show that you can have problems that are not compatibility issues. I guess if you get enough complaints from other visitors to the site this would suggest compatibility problems you can identify.

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n7 Studios

14 years ago

You - as a client - have asked a designer / developer to produce a web site with the required functionality. The knowledge and technical know-how of said developer means they should employ the necessary techniques to achieve the end result - a web site that works, for the majority of major desktop web browsers and majority of screen resolutions.

If your web site doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6, 7, 8, Firefox, Safari, Google Chrome or Opera, then the developer hasn't achieved the end result.

I would expect minor differences on the web site for Internet Explorer 6 - its lack of web standards and known bugs means that pixel perfect work on IE6 adds around 20 - 25% additional development time, which can prove costly for clients. However, I would expect the site to still fully function.

As a minimum, my design & development procedure is as follows:
1. Development as per project specification, using a 960px fixed width, or fluid width layout. Other best practices include the use of reset stylesheets to improve cross browser compatibility, as well as unobtrusive Javascript to add enhanced functionality whilst maintaining accessibility.
2. Cross browser compatibility with IE6, 7, 8, Firefox, Safari, Google Chrome, Opera on Windows, Firefox and Safari on Mac OS X
3. Full testing & QA procedure to ensure web site functions and displays in above web browsers and platforms.

Granted, your developer can't produce a site that's 100% perfect in every web browser and platform known to man - it would be too time consuming and costly - but the above is an absolute minimum.

I'm assuming you have a project specification - if so, which web browsers did it state the web site would work + be tested in?

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xatsmann 14 years ago

Just curious, how do you test on a mac if you don't have one--do you use VMware or something?

I don't think getting a site to work on XP using IE7 is unreasonable or should be that tough to get to work.

As for the emails your getting, if you can recreate the problem then he should be able to as well. Are you testing in on an IBM compatible as well--if not have you asked anyone else to test it on non-MAC machine?

Is this a just a display issue or is it a programming issue?

What is your site's URL--I'd be curious to take a look at it as I have both Windows XP and Linux.
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- IMStudentforlife 14 years ago
  
  Check it with browsershots.org then you can show him what you are seeing then.
  
  It is extremely difficult to please every individual web browser as they all look different. Then throw in AOL web browser (since this is a infranet) into the mix and have it all messed up..
  
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Have I been taken for a RIDE

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