Domain Screwed...Need Advice (RESOLVED)

Could it not be argued that domain name is the intellectual property of your company? this comes up a lot when partnerships breakdown, who owns what and normally regardless of which person registered the domain it is considered part and parcel of the company.

I would imagine a good place to start is back when you registered for the service, what were the terms and conditions of the products and services offered at the time? have they been amended and if so when and what notice was provided to. You paid for the service but it could be argued that you own the domain unless it states otherwise, by the sound of it this could well be the case.

Don't just assume your screwed as you have put it...go find out for sure. Then and only then you can beat yourself up.

Kieron

Geez Steven

I really feel for you - Unfortunately I'm not an expert on this. Maybe Alexa Smith can help out - she would make one heck of a fierce lawyer and is pretty clued up on a lot of stuff. Or what about "Caliban". I truly hope you can get a solution for this.

It's a pity this guy don't want to co-operate and do the right thing, but is the "way the cookie crumble" - I've never seen you so "down" in any of your posts - Just hang in there - someone will come up with the "perfect" solution!

Good luck!

Maybe if you offer to host a new domain name (or maybe a couple more) with him he will trade you control of the domain name you want from him. Just be careful it's not a domain name that you will have to go through this again with.

Dennis Graves

Yes, you're screwed unless he voluntarily transfers it to you. He bought it, it's in his name and you have no contract saying that he bought the domain for you.

I would call him on the phone and talk to him to get a feel for how willing he would be to transfer the name to your account. Make sure you have an account with the same registrar, so it's an easy push.

If you can't get him to transfer it, see if you can get him to put your information in as the contact. If something happens, you can contact the registrar and go through the process to provide your ID and get it transferred to you. Messier, but probably doable. He could, of course, refuse to do it or change the registration information back to his own at any time, but if he won't transfer it, it's better than nothing.

Then let this be a lesson for everyone - never EVER have someone else buy a domain name for you.

Explain to him that you want all your assets under your own control - freaky things can happen with security as daily people get trojans, break-ins etc. Legally it is interesting - I am not a lawyer If the domain has your name in it he hasn't got a chance in hell. If you have invested 4 years in your domain there is a good chance trademark law can help you. Ultimately people are in general good, and there is a high chance they will just transfer it to you especially in the days of social media and negative SEO.

Steven,

I am no expert but I would like to throw another option in the mix:

Apply for a trademark under the domain name under question. E.g. if it is superdiscountshoes.com then apply for a trademark for "Super Discount Shoes" and then you may have more ground to stand on.

Obviously get a good lawyer and chat to him or her about it.

Another option is to redirect that domain to a new domain you do own and start there. It will kill your SEO in the short term but you may get this back in the longer term of course you kind of have to start again with backlinking and all that. But at least you will get the old domain traffic from day 1 because of the redirection.

Strictly from a legal point of view, it would largely depend on any verbage in the contract that was "electronically or otherwise signed/agreed" upon. If their is no legal language in the contract pertaining to the registration and control of the domain, under ICANN rules the purchaser and owner of the domain would be in control of the domain.

If you were to contest the domain you would have to file a Dispute with ICANN under their Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy (UDRP). The cost to file the arbitration is $1500 to be decided among one panelist and $4000 to be decided among three panelists.

While you do not need a lawyer to submit your argument to the arbitration board, its advisable since they would be better prepared to argue the legal merits of your case pertaining to ICANN rules.

Unfortunately, in your situation the person in control of the domain has a lot greater legal ground to stand on than you. And its probably wise to contact an Intellectual Property attorney familiar with ICANN rulings for a consultation before spending a fortune in legal and filing fees only to find out you don't have a case.

Unfortunately, since he paid for and registered the domain, I doubt that there is anything you can do to get it in your name without his cooperation. Since you are a lifetime member, it is really unreasonable of him not to turn it over to you. I think that's just plain bad business.

Looks like he's got you by the b**** if he so pleases. Do you have access to the original terms of purchase for the program? There may be something in there which could help you.

Here's what I would do..
..come to WF and ask for advice

I'm as stumped as you. Live and learn.

If he does not cooperate, it would be extremely difficult for you to get hold of it. If this turns out to be the case, I would start winding down the domain. This is what I would do

1. Register a new domain
2. Do a 301 redirect from the old domain to the new domain.

In time, the new domain would take over the existing backlinks, pagerank and serps. So that if it is dropped eventually, you will only lose some type in traffic..


Derek

I spoke to my attorney briefly about this. Really what it comes down to is the verbage used in your original contract for the membership site. If they reference "owning" the domain name as one of the features of membership, and you maintain that membership (which you do, lifetime), then you can force him to transfer the domain to you.

You're head will probably be spinning around with all the advice - but I've owned an offline construction business for 25 years - and you don't know the type of people you have to deal with - I agee IM is not "offline" business.

Lawyers fees could run into thousands of dollars - but will you succeed in the end? Unless you can negotiate a no results - no fees agreement with you lawyer. Until this day offline clients still owe me in excess of close to $40 000 almost triple the amount of lawyer fees later with no results I'm still the one that looses out. And I've practically "gave my left kidney" to please the clients in question.

The guy I recommended - Jeff Herring just bought up all the possible domain names and is really a decent bloke and did a redirect to the new domains - Chris Knight agreed to put his staff on to doing all the article stuff (being a respected marketer on EZA I'm sure he'll do the same for you)

Honestly I'm with the emporer, derekwong, avenuegril and alexa - but I know you probably think who am I to give you advice - but surely you'll respect advice from Caliban

In the end it's your decision - Do whatever you feel is going to be in your best interest.

Steven - Since I've sponged off of all the free info you've provided in this forum I feel obligated to throw in my 2 cents (which may be worth less than that but it's all I got!)

Besides all the get a lawyer or trademark routes mentioned, my first inclination would be to find an easier way. I'm of the opinion everyone has a "price". This may or may not be actual money.

Idea #1
He gets something from this arrangement. I'm not familiar with the set up but there's some reason he offers this service. Is it just the one-time $300? If so, there would be no reason for him not to let you have it back in exchange for something. Since he's declined to let the domain go there must be something else in it for him. What is it?

Not familiar with the arrangement my guesses would be:

1. Some sort of backlinks to his own sites?
2. Better rate for the cost of his services on the back end the more domains he owns?
3. Betting on a default rate which leaves him some share of aged domains?

I don't know, but there is something. He said no for a reason and I'm sure he didn't disclose to you his most critical, underlying reason but if you can figure out what that is and understand its value to him you might be able to offer something in exchange that's worth more. Leverage. If it's the aged domains he wants offer to buy him one with similar characteristics as yours in exchange. Something along those lines.

Idea #2
You have an invaluable set of skills and experience and somewhere in there is likely something you could use to barter with him in exchange for the domain. For example, you might try saying "In exchange for the domain, I'd be willing to:

1. Send my list a recommendation of your service. You said you'd been pleased with him for 4 years. Yes, you know now that it wasn't ideal but maybe the service is valuable to someone else who is new or has limited resources.
2. Write 10 articles about your service and distribute them to 50 article directories. (some variation on the theme)
3. Build some promotional web 2.0 properties that point to his money site.

I'm sure you know enough to be able to analyze his site, his backlinks, his competition, his seo efforts and see if there is a gap that you could help him fill in exchange for ownership of the domain. Make it juicy, irresistible, tempting. Mention numbers. Make it very hard for him to say no but don't make it your best possible offer up front. If he says no, counter-offer.

Idea #3
I assume that what is bringing traffic and making sales is mostly your content - which he does not own. If that's true, do you have the option of moving your content? I realize this is not ideal and would require a lot of re-work to rank a new domain but in the end you'd own the domain and control its future.

Maybe sift through those ideas and come up with a few options. Draft an email that explains to him that you have come to a cross-roads with this domain - that you must either own the domain to continue building it or that you will have to consider focusing your efforts elsewhere. Explain your preference for owning the domain but that you have evaluated a number of other options regarding the content, as well.

Play on your four years as a good customer. Play to the relationship. Compliment his business model. Explain that you understand this is business but that as a result of your long standing relationship you feel obligated to let him know where you stand at the moment. Tell him that ideally you'd like the outcome to be a win-win for both of you. Tell him you'd like to give him a chance to boost his bottom line as a result. If you're fairly certain what the domain means to him through evaluation of his model, offer him something of value in exchange for ownership of the domain. If you're uncertain, ask him for ideas. Let him know that you have built up a number of valuable resources in online marketing. Ask him an open-ended question like "What would it take for me to obtain ownership of this domain?"

His response should be fairly telling. Or lack of response. I realize he hasn't responded to your last email. You might do some checking around, check his online haunts if you know them, is he active? Do a whois request for contact information and try to reach him by snail mail, too, if the domain is worth the effort.

My thoughts.

Simple. Hire a hit man. The guy will not renew and you pick up the domain.

I always tell my kids you don't ask you don't get.

So you asked but it sounds like you asked in a way that did not make it clear how much you want the site. He said he would continue to pay etc and not to worry.
So then you emailed him again.

In this email did you make it very clear what your feelings are? Did you spell out that you are concerned about what could happen to the site and that you want to take it to the next level and you want it in your name no ifs ands or buts.

Or did you simply indicate you want it because you are afraid that spelling it out will not give you the desired result.

IF you have clearly expressed your desire and you know he has heard you and he will not give you then site, then it makes no sense for you to continue to build it up. You have the decision then to fight it or to give it up.

Since he has a membership site it seems that you should be able to communicate to other members how he is treating a verbal agreement you had and he would want to make sure you are happy.

So bottomline, call him, email him again and make your desire very very clear if you haven't already. And if you have Commonsense would tell you not to continue building up a site someone will not turn over to you.

I say just do everything in your power to get in contact with him and if you do then explain why you want the domain. He should give it to you if he is an ethical businessman in any sense of the word.

I agree on just offering to buy it from him first. If that doesn't work I would move the content to a new domain and put a subtle notice up on the old domain with the new domain name. Then start contacting site owners to update their links to point to the new domain and get some new, fresh high quality links to the new domain that the old domain doesn't have. (If you 301 the domain the people you have links from now may not see the need for them to update their links.)

It will work. I just did this for someone in a similar situation where a bitter, ex-webmaster wouldn't release his domain and got the new site ranking pretty quick. Once as many of your old links as you can get have been pointed to the new domain, take your content off the old domain. If the domain owner tries to restore the old content then file DMCA requests against the domain owner for copyright infringement.

This only works if you own the copyright on the content, otherwise you will have to create new content for the new site besides starting over with a new domain.

Hi Stephen

Personally, I believe that your answer lies in finding a win-win solution. That, of course, means listening to what this person wants in return for the transfer. When you fully understand his position, the two of you can creatively brainstorm the solution.

"Seek first to understand, then be understood" - Stephen R Covey

Good luck,

Will

Steven,
I highlighted the two parts I wanted to address from your original post. Understand that the domain makes you a nice chunk of change right now but it has the potential to make much more.

My question is how much more and based off what? If the increase is based on work you will be performing on behalf of the site could you not simply leave this site in place (while attempting to secure it) and instead build another site in the same niche with a similar domain name?

Realize that is probably not an answer you are lookign for but my gut tells me that anyone who knows how to purchase domains and operate as a host provider is probably smart enough to know how valuable the domain he loans you truly is.

In fact, chances are he is probably kicking himself in the butt for allowing you a lifetime deal for $300 based on the potential for the domain in question.

Resepctfully,
Tim

Is it only me who sees this as a non issue?...

If a domain is making "a nice chunk of change".. then it can very easily be replaced with another domain, in the same niche, with very little work. And from this point, you can roll up the income on the new site as you expected to do with the current one.

You know exactly what SEO and content work you have done on this domain, so outranking and beating it shouldn't be a problem.

Do this. Remove all content from the earlier domain and then remove yourself from the control of this guy.

Aren't you over-thinking it a little, Steve?

And having said all that... Nobody should really be taking legal advice on a forum. Consult a lawyer who specializes in this kind of work..

Although I think they would tell you, If you wish to pursue this in an official capacity, you are going to lose if the guy wants to keep control.

Peace

Jay

I agree with the person who said you should try to find out why he wants to hold on to the domain name. It may be as simple as the fact that you're one of the few people (or even the ONLY person) who has a profitable domain name registered with him.

His motives could be nefarious. But maybe he's using your domain as an example of how successful people can become if they use his service.

You could try offering a testimonial and letting him continue to use your site as an example of the success of his service (if that's what he's doing) in exchange for registering the domain in your name. Or find a monetary offer that he finds acceptable (as others have suggested).

Of course, if he's holding onto it for another reason, then your solution to this will probably be different.

But unless you're making a lot of money (and I mean A LOT), it's unlikely to be worthwhile financially to retain a lawyer. But you can always get a half-hour free consultation with one to see if there are any legal avenues worth pursuing.

Regardless of whether this person is trustworthy or not, business is business. If you don't already have one, make a backup of the site... and start moving the content.

From a legal standpoint, which one of you owns the content? Do you have a copy of the original agreement? Sometimes, people sign all their rights away to anything that's posted on another person's site. In other situations, that's how the other person usually has the legal right to show your content on their site.

You should get that clarified as soon as possible. Or you may have bigger problems than which one of you owns the domain name.

You may want to make sure you have your copyrights in order.

Janedoe and others gave some good suggestions as to what to do technically to get a new site moving, so there's no need to repeat it here. I wouldn't put any new content on the site, though.

But I'd urge you not to jump the gun with this person in terms of making threats or filing legal actions. Try to work it out amicably at first. If you can't, then you can take more adversarial measures, if that's what you decide to do.

(My concern is that if you start threatening him, even subtly, in any way, he may take control of the domain in more than name only. For now, it sounds as though you have physical control of the content and the redirects. You don't want to lose that prematurely.)

Good luck.

If I had access to FTP .. I would use a 301 redirect to a domain I own.

This way the SEO benefits would go to your new domain.

Gabriel

I hope you got your info in the "Administrative Contact" part of it so you'll be notified if there are any changes to it.

Business is business - and an agreement is your word.

Unless you have access to his account with the registrar, you still have no control over it.

If he bought it FOR YOU, then transferring it to your registrar account shouldn't be a problem for him.

I'm glad you're happy with the resolution because I sure wouldn't be. But - I wouldn't have let someone else register a name for me in the first place.

At the very least, this time make sure your agreement regarding the name is in writing.

The negative side of this...

Again I am not a lawyer - these are just some things to think about

Before, you could possibly have had full ownership

Now you have effectively a new contract with the person which acknowleges in some way joint ownership.

Say the domain is worth 15 months income, his current asset is worth half that, and going forward he doesn't have to do anything to still have his half.

Also if you didn't exclude it, what is to stop him claiming half the income 12 months down the road? (of course backdated)

...and the lesson is, it's usually better to work with someone when it's possible, rather than trying to wrest control from them behind their back.

Glad you found an amicable resolution, Steven.

If you ever have a problem w/ it, you could always upload one of those autoblogs and tax the hell out of his processors and bandwidth. I'm sure he'd be glad to be rid of it after that.

If it is registered with Godaddy, they send domain transfer approval instructions to the email address of the admin owner. So in order to have control of the domain, you either have to have the Godaddy password for the account so you can update the admin email address, or the password for the email address on the admin contact page of the domain.

If your email address is now in the admin contact, if it were me I'd transfer the domain ASAP to a registrar account under my sole control, otherwise the owner of the domain account can change the email address at any future date to an email address only he controls.

Aged domains with links are worth money, and people who buy and sell web sites can pretty much tell just from looking at Alexa how much a site would be worth to them. They don't have to know your current income to value the site.

Steven, looks like you have a solution. Your original issue was:

So I guess this is kind-of solved, although as someone mentioned his spouse or whoever could access the account or sell the domain as they are unaware of your agreement, so there is still a bit of risk there.

If you get control panel access to the domain as someone suggested that would give you extra security.

It's your call though and glad you have a solution and a JV.

Steven,

Happy for you to get it worked out to YOUR satisfaction.

Hugh