Would You Promote a ClickBank Product with an Opt-in

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Hi Guys

Recently, I have been thinking about removing the opt-in from my ClickBank sales pages. The reason is that I have become aware that not all CB affiliates see the tactic as a good thing.

One the one hand, there are those who believe that having the vendor follow-up the prospect via the autoresponder sequence will increase sales.

On the other, there are those who don't always trust vendors who use this tactic. Recognising that it opens the door for misuse by the vendor, they prefer to not promote such products.

So I'm interested in your views on this matter: would you promote a CB product with an opt-in on the sales page or does the use of this tactic mean that you would never promote the product?

Thanks

Will
#clickbank #optin #product #promote
  • Profile picture of the author Calamaroo
    Speaking personally.

    I just recently faced a 50/50 decision between two sites with copy that I thought were equal. But the first one had an opt-in page. And so I chose the second one.

    I'm scared that I might get left out of a sale that came from the vendor's follow up e-mail. For all I know, that e-mail might say that the advertised product would be part of a bigger bundle that would make such a product much cheaper individually as a part of that bigger bundle that I will be left out of.
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  • Profile picture of the author Irnes Jakupovic
    Your right, I don't touch products that have an opt-in at all. We already know how low the % of buying is on an initial visit so I don't want my leads to be taken away from the sales page to check their email because of the opt-in. I won't even go into the fact that there is a possibility for commissions to be stolen.

    So if I were you I would make 2 separate sales pages. One page with no opt-in for your affiliates and another sales page with an opt-in for when your self promoting.

    Sadly it feels like clickbank is becoming a way for product creators to build up their lists for free.

    Edit:
    This is speaking strictly from an affiliates perspective. It does not benefit me at all if your have an opt-in on your sales page. It can only hurt me but as a product vendor it is a huge gain.
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  • Profile picture of the author matty-81
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Dean
      The simple answer is - no way!
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    • Profile picture of the author PeteSmith
      Originally Posted by matty-81 View Post

      Never again. I've tried it a couple of times and had much lower conversion rates than products without opt-ins. Why should I let some greedy vendor take advantage of all of the traffic that I worked so hard to drive? The chances of them doing the right thing and cutting me in on sales made from my traffic is slim to none. I don't work for free.
      Doesn't the opt-in list assist with after sales though? Aren't most clickbank sites cookied for 60 days? So if they send follow up sales messages, doesnt this increase the chance of a sale later on?
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    As a product vendor I want to help my affiliates make as much money as they can. I give them the option of promoting a squeeze page, a sales page without optin, or a sales page with optin.

    Even the pages that have the optins on them have been specially coded so that the affiliates id is submitted into aweber along with the leads email address. Every follow up email we send uses the affiliate id of the affiliate who sent that lead. It's only fair. They spent their time and money sending me those leads so they should be rewarded for any sales they generate.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      As a product vendor I want to help my affiliates make as much money as they can. I give them the option of promoting a squeeze page, a sales page without optin, or a sales page with optin.

      Even the pages that have the optins on them have been specially coded so that the affiliates id is submitted into aweber along with the leads email address. Every follow up email we send uses the affiliate id of the affiliate who sent that lead. It's only fair. They spent their time and money sending me those leads so they should be rewarded for any sales they generate.
      I'm interested to know from all you affiliates. Would this change your mind? If you knew that your affiliate id was being used in all the followup emails sent to leads you have generated?
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      • Profile picture of the author bretski
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        I'm interested to know from all you affiliates. Would this change your mind? If you knew that your affiliate id was being used in all the followup emails sent to leads you have generated?
        Nope... and if I was promoting a product and found out that the vendor had added an opt-in to the sales page I would (and have) redirected that traffic to another product. That also goes for vendors that drop their commission to 1% and other foolishness.
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    • Profile picture of the author timpears
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      As a product vendor I want to help my affiliates make as much money as they can. I give them the option of promoting a squeeze page, a sales page without optin, or a sales page with optin.

      Even the pages that have the optins on them have been specially coded so that the affiliates id is submitted into aweber along with the leads email address. Every follow up email we send uses the affiliate id of the affiliate who sent that lead. It's only fair. They spent their time and money sending me those leads so they should be rewarded for any sales they generate.
      You are the kind of vendor that I think affiliates are looking for. If you would like to share the products that you offer, I for one would like to review the and see if they would be the kind I want to promote.

      I wish more vendors thought this way.
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    • Profile picture of the author gcaine
      Vendors do this and there is no problem. The problem is relying on the affiliates cookie being still there when someone buys from the list.

      Originally Posted by WillR View Post


      Even the pages that have the optins on them have been specially coded so that the affiliates id is submitted into aweber along with the leads email address. Every follow up email we send uses the affiliate id of the affiliate who sent that lead. It's only fair. They spent their time and money sending me those leads so they should be rewarded for any sales they generate.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      By the way, Will, if you'll excuse the observation, the first option in your poll is rather misleadingly worded. It says "I believe it increases conversions" without specifying whether it's being compared with no opt-in at all or with the affiliate having an opt-in on their pre-selling page. We all know that email follow-up "increases conversions", but this isn't actually the point, here.
      Hi Alexa

      As usual, your overall observations are excellent. With regard to the above point though, I would just say that the question was meant as: Would You Promote a ClickBank Product with an Opt-in on the Sales Page? And the Poll options are direct answers to that specific question.

      Again, many thanks for your contribution: as you know it is largely discussion with you that has prompted me to engage in this little bit of market research.

      Will
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    • Profile picture of the author Branlan17
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      I'll stick my neck out with two predictions, here, if you'll excuse me.

      1. Those Warriors replying will be a small, self-selected group with an interest in this subject and not in any way representative of affiliates in general (together, perhaps, with some vendors appalled at the suggestion that they might do anything unethical with the "leads", trying to defend their determination to use an opt-in: some might even produce the argument about having an opt-in being better than not having one, in an attempt to deflect attention from the true issue here: the choice between having a vendor's opt-in and having an affiliate's opt-in!);

      2. Among affiliates in general, the great majority will promote a CB product with a vendor's opt-in, won't understand the problem in doing so, and are among the 90% of affiliates who collectively produce 10% of the vendor's affiliate sales, whereas the small minority who won't promote a product with a leaky sales page are among the 10% of affiliates who produce 90% of the vendor's affiliate sales. Not all opinions are equal, in other words: to interpret them meaningfully, one would need somehow to "weight" them according to the potential income they speak for - which will certainly give a radically different perspective.

      I see vendors nowadays producing a sales page with an opt-in for affiliates who want that, and another copy of the same thing without the opt-in for more serious, professional affiliates, and announcing openly in their marketplace listing that that's what they do. How difficult is it, anyway? Why can't they all just do that and make this problem go away? Someone more cynical than I might even ask "If they absolutely won't do that, even on request from a professional affiliate, what are they really telling us?"

      I'm very pleased to be able to report that every vendor of whom I've made that request, myself, has been happy to do so. Ok, that's only three people, I admit, but two of them did it within 12 hours, and one within 2 hours. I was impressed, anyway.

      Unsolicited advice to prospective affiliates: choose your vendors wisely, as well as your products.

      By the way, Will, if you'll excuse the observation, the first option in your poll is rather misleadingly worded. It says "I believe it increases conversions" without specifying whether it's being compared with no opt-in at all or with the affiliate having an opt-in on their pre-selling page. We all know that email follow-up "increases conversions", but this isn't actually the point, here.
      LOL. Based on our pm's a while back, I was just waiting to see if you would reply to this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Benjamin
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      I'll stick my neck out with two predictions, here, if you'll excuse me.

      1. Those Warriors replying will be a small, self-selected group with an interest in this subject and not in any way representative of affiliates in general (together, perhaps, with some vendors appalled at the suggestion that they might do anything unethical with the "leads", trying to defend their determination to use an opt-in: some might even produce the argument about having an opt-in being better than not having one, in an attempt to deflect attention from the true issue here: the choice between having a vendor's opt-in and having an affiliate's opt-in!);

      2. Among affiliates in general, the great majority will promote a CB product with a vendor's opt-in, won't understand the problem in doing so, and are among the 90% of affiliates who collectively produce 10% of the vendor's affiliate sales, whereas the small minority who won't promote a product with a leaky sales page are among the 10% of affiliates who produce 90% of the vendor's affiliate sales. Not all opinions are equal, in other words: to interpret them meaningfully, one would need somehow to "weight" them according to the potential income they speak for - which will certainly give a radically different perspective.

      I see vendors nowadays producing a sales page with an opt-in for affiliates who want that, and another copy of the same thing without the opt-in for more serious, professional affiliates, and announcing openly in their marketplace listing that that's what they do. How difficult is it, anyway? Why can't they all just do that and make this problem go away? Someone more cynical than I might even ask "If they absolutely won't do that, even on request from a professional affiliate, what are they really telling us?"

      I'm very pleased to be able to report that every vendor of whom I've made that request, myself, has been happy to do so. Ok, that's only three people, I admit, but two of them did it within 12 hours, and one within 2 hours. I was impressed, anyway.

      Unsolicited advice to prospective affiliates: choose your vendors wisely, as well as your products.

      By the way, Will, if you'll excuse the observation, the first option in your poll is rather misleadingly worded. It says "I believe it increases conversions" without specifying whether it's being compared with no opt-in at all or with the affiliate having an opt-in on their pre-selling page. We all know that email follow-up "increases conversions", but this isn't actually the point, here.
      This should have been made into a thread. It's very
      valuable to know because, I've actually avoided
      products that didn't immediately have a salespage
      w/o an opt-in.

      It just made me extremely uncomfortable to promote
      or trust ANY vendor (no matter who promotes the
      product) to embed every affiliate link of mines into
      every email.

      To me...it's something I didn't mind when I didn't rly
      know what I was doing, but as I grew up...I learned
      it was a raw deal and has to many holes in it to
      make it worth my while.

      For the life of me, I never thought to contact and
      just ask the vendor for a salespage only version...
      a little late for me now as I've moved on, but wish
      I'd known this sooner.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Will, I'm very selective in what I promote, but an opt-in form is a stop sign for me. I'm not interested in building the vendor's mailing list, I'm interested in making commissions.

    It's that simple for me. Your mileage may vary.
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    If you're serious about promoting a particular product with an optin form, another option is to contact the vendor and ask them to setup a duplicate copy of the sales page in another folder just for you. Then ask them to swap out their optin code with yours so you are building your own list and can follow up with the leads the way you want to.

    It seems like a bit of a waste to let all those potential leads go to waste. You would probably need to be in a position where you could show them you can drive some good traffic to their site, so they can see it is worth their while.
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  • Profile picture of the author alniches
    I'm not sure if this is relevant, but personally even if the product has high gravity on clickbank, it kinda turns me off to promote it. But maybe I'm missing out on things?
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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    I make good money promoting an offer with an opt-in page, so I never rule it out. Follow-up marketing by the vendor can work very well.

    However I am aware that some sneaky vendors are doing the wrong thing by their affiliates, so do your homework before sending traffic. The good news is there are still honest (and smart) vendors out there.


    Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Ok from a vendor perspective:

    I own a clickbank product, and I never had an opt-in as a matter of pride and principle - but recently I have changed to have an opt-in pop up after 20 seconds. Why?

    Well simple really - to keep the conversation going with the prospects and increase the chance they become customers. This is good for me and the affiliate.

    However from the affiliates point of view how do they know I wont "steal" their commissions?

    They don't - but all they can do is monitor their Earnings Per Hop versus competitors products (split testing) and by doing this regularly they can give me the boot if the EPH drops too much.

    Simple really!
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  • Profile picture of the author thebarksmeow
    To be honest... that's the very first thing I look for. If it has an opt-in, I'm not promoting it. It's that simple.
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    • Profile picture of the author rondo
      Originally Posted by thebarksmeow View Post

      To be honest... that's the very first thing I look for. If it has an opt-in, I'm not promoting it. It's that simple.
      Why? You're ruling out half of the affiliate opportunities on the internet.


      Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    • Profile picture of the author PeterMichael
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      Everyone knows that email follow-up greatly increases conversions.
      This is another one of the dogmas and doctrines of internet marketing. Is it always true? Has anyone tested in in various niches, with various email follow-up strategies?

      But if the vendor provides both versions, there's no problem anyway.
      That's a great idea!
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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      Well, I know I increased my conversions from around 1% to close to 5% changing from a a single sales letter to a carefully crafted sales funnel based on email campaigns and video.


      This is for a $97 product and I will be increasing this to $199. I am adding quite a few up sells and cross sells all of which the affiliate will get commissions from.


      I really don't have a problem with the people that say they won't promote a sales page with an opt in. Luckily, there are affiliates who understand more of an abundance mindset and make good money with these types of offers.

      I am not interested in affiliates that want me to lower my conversions simply because they have a scarcity mindset. I am more interested in working with the affiliate to maximize their and my profits.


      There is no reason why the affiliate can't build their list but also promote products with opt in pages. It isn't a either or situation.


      There isn't a lot of good offers that convert like mine.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Well, I know I increased my conversions from around 1% to close to 5% changing from a a single sales letter to a carefully crafted sales funnel based on email campaigns and video.
        I totally agree with this. I always get much better results doing things this way.
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      • Profile picture of the author PaulBaranowski
        Hey,

        While affiliate marketing isn't my main source of income anymore but it used
        to be for 2 years and the offers with opt-ins were consistently under-performers.So i had to say no to them a year ago even thought a product can be good.

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Thomas, do you honestly think that the majority of people posting in this thread have a "scarcity mindset"? Or might there be some other possible explanations for so many experienced affiliates being so determined not to promote an offer with a vendor's opt-in, too?
          Yes, I do think most have a scarcity mindset when they are worried about a optin.

          What is the reason for the person promoting the offer?

          Affiliate commissions... Well, if they get more commissions based on a system that requires an opt in but refuse to promote it because of the opt in it sort of leads the mind to wonder why even be an affiliate.

          I am not talking about the vendors who steal commissions here. Like Rondo said, you should test the email campaign yourself to see if there are any "leaks".

          We all have scarcity mindsets about certain things. I know I have to knock myself upside my head at times when I should be thinking a different way.



          I hear you, but may I ask another question? Why not also provide, as an alternative on request, a version of your sales page without the opt in for those narrow-minded, obstinate, scarcity-mindset affiliates who won't promote your product now and attract some of them as well as the open-minded, flexible, abundance-mindset affiliates you already have? It would be easy enough for you to do, surely?
          I would rather devote my time to increasing conversions rather than supplying multiple sales pages.

          I want affiliates getting crazy about 5% conversions on high priced products with even higher priced upsells and cross sells.

          I don't want people talking about how they only got 1% on my sales page when I had to dumb down the process because they didn't want an opt in.

          Also, depending on their traffic source, the conversions could be lower...

          To be specific, I don't need to work with everyone.

          If a person would rather lower their conversions and commissions then sell a different product.

          My job is to make a good product, a great offer and to squeeze out as much money from mine and the affiliate's traffic.

          It isn't about supplying lower converting sales letters for people who want it "their" way.

          When you get your offer converting great you won't have to worry about affiliates marketing it. That is why I spent a lot of time working on my sales process and still need to add more.

          Edited: Affiliates should be marketing based on markets and not specific products. That way, you can still build a list and market products that convert better with optins.


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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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            • Profile picture of the author theemperor
              I think this is opt-in thing is a moot point. I would like to offer a complete shift of thinking on this issue.

              "Should I promote a product with an opt-in?" is the wrong question to be asking. Forget about it and don't worry

              Not convinced? ... Here is an example to illustrate:


              Say you are promoting "Get Your Ex Back" books. There are 10 quality products in this niche you like and are happy to promote. You decide to split test for best order form impressions and sales for each one of the ten, and see what results you get.

              If any vendors are stealing your commissions, either through the opt-in mailing list, or some cookie trickery, or by providing a "support" link where they talk 1-on-1 with the customer - any of these things - then in your split test they'll fail - they wont provide you with order form impressions or sales and you'll stop promoting them.

              The ones you end up promoting will give you the highest conversions. The highest earnings per click.

              If in the future those conversions tail off - split test again - see if it is the market that has changed, your traffic that has changed, or if it is the vendors fault for some reason.

              * * *

              Also as an extra check you can do what Alexa did to and sign up for the opt-ins under a different email address and see directly if they do anything untoward with their affiliate links.

              Being robbed may be OK for the affiliate...

              Think of this from a pragmatic point of view - if the vendor steals say 25% of your commissions through their opt-in, but still gets you the best earnings per hop - does it matter?

              If they steal 95% of your commissions and leave you with a cent per hop - then they'll be out pretty quick if you are keeping a close eye on earnings for your sites.

              So don't worry about it

              Rules of thumb about opt-in lists are fine, but testing is king when it comes to finding out the reality of the situation for your site, for your traffic, for your niche.
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              • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
                Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

                I think this is opt-in thing is a moot point. I would like to offer a complete shift of thinking on this issue.

                "Should I promote a product with an opt-in?" is the wrong question to be asking. Forget about it and don't worry [B]
                It is a moot point only from the Affiliate perspective. As far as the Vendor is concerned, losing Affiliates because they believe something is true (whether it is or not) is very pertinent.

                Will
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              • Profile picture of the author Cotton
                "Also as an extra check you can do what Alexa did to and sign up for the opt-ins under a different email address and see directly if they do anything untoward with their affiliate links."

                I did this also and found out the vendor was not including the affiliate's link within the email at all. Needless to say, I dropped him asap.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                  • Profile picture of the author gcaine
                    [QUOTE=Alexa Smith;2384268]They shouldn't include one. That's no problem - if they don't ever include an affiliate-link to the product but just direct your customers to the sales page, then your cookie (on your prospective customers' computers) will still be valid for 60 days and you'll get paid if they buy. It's when they do include an affiliate-link - usually masked - that you have a problem, because "the most recent cookie gets the sale" and yours will be overwritten.

                    If your affiliate link is in the email and they buy because of the email your ID will be the most recent.

                    If it isn't in the email and they buy then whatever affiliates page they most recently clicked from will get the commission.

                    That is why vendors need to capture the affiliates Id when someone opts in and include it in each and every email.

                    Vendors, it's not hard to do with a little php, pm me and I'll show you how.
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                    • Profile picture of the author bretski
                      Ok...this is really easy. You go to a sales page yourself of something that interests you. Oh Look! There's a free report! You're seriously thinking of buying but they have something free! Gimme the free thing!

                      You read the free thing and do some more research. You read more reviews and ponder your navel some. Maybe you find more free things or another product that is almost like the other product that you were looking at. Maybe you buy the original product a week later after your porn watching roomie clears the cache and cookies because he doesn't want anyone to know what a freak he is...cookie is gone

                      Either way the time I put in as an affiliate to promote a vendors product is lost. The vendor may have gotten the sale but I didn't get my commission.

                      Meanwhile, there is another product that I promote that doesn't have an opt-in. Copy is killer and people feel like they're going to die if they don't have this stuff once they're done reading the page. They have one option... "Add To Cart"
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steve King
                        Hi All

                        As a new vendor, this thread has been a real eye opener

                        I have a golf product which took over 6 months to create and which I think is really high quality and I obviously would like to make sales.

                        I am happy to have a sales page with an optin and one without. But where do I tell people where they are. I only get one URL to link to my sales page.

                        I was also thinking that my customers would be checking out the CB market place...so my optin gives people the opportunity to test the first 12 videos for free to see if they like it.

                        My thinking was if they see how good the product is, they'll then go on to buy it.

                        If I remove the optin box...am I not also removing my customers chance to see how good we are?

                        I'm in for the long haul, but as no-one knows me yet and I haven't made a sale yet..how will people know how good the coaching is?

                        I'm happy for affiliates to make lots of money selling my products, I'm prepared to increase the commissions available or give their subscribers a decent discount.

                        set up individual pages if required specific to their needs...

                        I am interested in building a customer list though as I feel that golfers who buy the first product will be delighted with what they have and I'll have repeat customers for the future.

                        I am an honest marketer, but perhaps being new a bit naive...it can be hard sometimes to know what to do for the best...especially when you don't make a sale in 30-days and the product drops out of the market place.

                        Be interested to hear what you think I should do for the best and if anyone would like to see the quality of the product I'd be happy to show you.

                        Thanks
                        Steve
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                        • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
                          There's a thousand ways to do business and as has been mentioned many times before on this forum, do what works best for you. Refusing to promote a product purely because of the presence of an opt-in is presuming the vendor guilty until proven innocent. If that works for you then that's okay but it's not necessarily your best option if all you are concerned about is your bottom line.

                          I'm quite happy to invest the time to find the right product for my visitors. This means I couldn't care less about an opt-in untless I later find it's a problem. I don't do this because I'm such a great guy that I don't care if I lose commisions, I do it because the right product can increase your sales massively. I'm happy to take the time to find exactly what that product might be. Of course I still have to trust the vendor and like the product but you can usually get a good feel for that.

                          Knowing exactly what your visitors are looking for is not easy, or obvious, and requires trial and error but I personally make that my number one priority. Some of my best (and most regular) sales come from sales pages with an opt-in. Admitedly, they aren't all through Clickbank but if they were, that would not stop me trying the product if I believed it was good.

                          Lee
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                        • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
                          Originally Posted by Steve King View Post

                          Hi All

                          As a new vendor, this thread has been a real eye opener

                          I have a golf product which took over 6 months to create and which I think is really high quality and I obviously would like to make sales.

                          I am happy to have a sales page with an optin and one without. But where do I tell people where they are. I only get one URL to link to my sales page.

                          I was also thinking that my customers would be checking out the CB market place...so my optin gives people the opportunity to test the first 12 videos for free to see if they like it.

                          My thinking was if they see how good the product is, they'll then go on to buy it.

                          If I remove the optin box...am I not also removing my customers chance to see how good we are?

                          I'm in for the long haul, but as no-one knows me yet and I haven't made a sale yet..how will people know how good the coaching is?

                          I'm happy for affiliates to make lots of money selling my products, I'm prepared to increase the commissions available or give their subscribers a decent discount.

                          set up individual pages if required specific to their needs...

                          I am interested in building a customer list though as I feel that golfers who buy the first product will be delighted with what they have and I'll have repeat customers for the future.

                          I am an honest marketer, but perhaps being new a bit naive...it can be hard sometimes to know what to do for the best...especially when you don't make a sale in 30-days and the product drops out of the market place.

                          Be interested to hear what you think I should do for the best and if anyone would like to see the quality of the product I'd be happy to show you.

                          Thanks
                          Steve
                          The question in bold above is very important. How would a vendor notify affiliates of a separate sales page without an opt-in form? There would have to be two separate hop-links generated...one to the opt-in page and one to the non-opt-in page. Just how would this work???
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                          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                            • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
                              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                              By listing it as two products within one vendor account, sharing one marketplace listing and one commission-rate (you're allowed up to 500 products within one vendor account as long as they share one marketplace listing and one commission-rate), but with two different sales pages and therefore the facility for affiliates to generate a hoplink to either? There may be other, easier ways too. It can also be announced in the vendor's "spotlight" page.
                              Well there you go. It is the vendor's choice then. You can either have tons of free advertising or not...but don't expect others to build your list FOR you because there ain't no free lunches here....bottom line. Now I know that this is even an option, any sales page I promote will be certified as "leak free". I just dropped several recently just for this reason.
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                              • Profile picture of the author passiveincomebiz
                                The jury is still out on this it seems. But what about adding a optin form after a potential buyer clicks the order button and before he is taken to the order page?
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                                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                                  Originally Posted by Fish-Oil-pills.com View Post

                                  The jury is still out on this it seems. But what about adding a optin form after a potential buyer clicks the order button and before he is taken to the order page?
                                  That still puts the opt-in form between the visit and the commission-generating action (the sale). In my mind, that may be even more distracting than having a form on the sales page.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                                    that may be even more distracting than having a form on the sales page.
                                    And that matters a lot!

                                    Many customers also click the order button but don't actually buy at their first visit, too. Affiliates want those on our lists, if on anyone's, not on the vendors' lists, for all the reasons given above, throughout this thread.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author passiveincomebiz
                                      What if that form is seen viewed as part of the ordering process. After they fill it out and go to the order page - the info they put into the optin is already populated into order form - so the customers dont have to input that info again.

                                      I read in a clickbank communication that someone was having serious success with this. Read it here
                                      3 Tips for Doubling Your Conversions | ClickBank Blog

                                      But I undertsand what you are saying Alexa et al



                                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                                      And that matters a lot!

                                      Many customers also click the order button but don't actually buy at their first visit, too. Affiliates want those on our lists, if on anyone's, not on the vendors' lists, for all the reasons given above, throughout this thread.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                                        Originally Posted by Fish-Oil-pills.com View Post

                                        What if that form is seen viewed as part of the ordering process. After they fill it out and go to the order page - the info they put into the optin is already populated into order form - so the customers dont have to input that info again.

                                        I read in a clickbank communication that someone was having serious success with this. Read it here
                                        3 Tips for Doubling Your Conversions | ClickBank Blog

                                        But I undertsand what you are saying Alexa et al
                                        It might increase conversions, but for whom? Way too many ways for the affiliate cookie to get lost, whether by clumsy coding of the squeeze page redirect or by deliberate design.

                                        Clickbank doesn't give a rat's rump who makes the sale. They get their cut either way. As an affiliate, I do care who gets credit for the sale, and I don't like processes that make it easy to put that credit in someone else's pocket.

                                        And I still want that person on my list...
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                                        • Profile picture of the author chino007
                                          Hello, I just want to thank you everyone for having this excelent discussion here. I was looking for some products to promote and after seen the optin pages in some of them i had this doubt. Now i have all clear.

                                          I'm with alexa and all the other people saying that they don't promote a product with optin page/form. Of course maybe there is some exeception, if we know the vendor, if we ask the vendor to have another page version, etc.

                                          But at the end of the day, we are affiliates and we are trying to do a bussines, there is a lot of competition out there with some other affiliates and taking a new subscriber to our list is already a little hard, and with an optin page in the vendors page, is our subscriber, our effort, that is going to another list.

                                          In the future, this subscriber is going to receive our emails, and the vendors emails, if the vendors wants to promote another product, then we will be competing with the vendor for that new comission for the new product. And that's supposing that the subscriber is not in any other list from other affiliate/vendor.

                                          If the money is on the list, then we have to take highly care of it. Is our list not everyone else.

                                          Of course if we don't care any long term relationship with our list, and not are even sending any other emails, then i think it does not matter, we can promote anything we want.

                                          Thanks again to all of you.

                                          Enrique
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Hey ... I hope you know that I have a lot of time and respect for you, and I'm asking because it'll be interesting to discuss this with you, and not to pick a fight - just wanted to clarify this!
              No need to worry, Alexa. This is what this forum is about.

              I hope I am not that scary.

              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


              But let me (if I may?) ask you a very specific question about my own early experiences, then, and ask you if you think I have a scarcity mindset (and I won't be offended if you do). When I started off, I promoted 7 different vendors' products all of which had a vendor's opt-in. I earned almost nothing. I later found out that 6 of those 7 unconnected vendors sent out email (to prospects who opted in) which contained a different affiliate-cookie which obviously overwrote my own, because the most recent cookie gets the sale credited. Up until learning that, I'd been naive and thought that the incidence of vendors doing this was probably fairly low and that I shouldn't worry about it too much, because that was just something that someone with a scarcity mindset would do.
              I have a feeling that a lot of people have the same thoughts because they were screwed over.

              I wouldn't promote others if they didn't really work at promoting the offer I sent the traffic too.

              My job as a vendor is to get you more money promoting my offer so you stay with me.

              I don't care if the vendor makes money on other products from my referrals as long as they made an attempt at making me a commission.

              What I mean is they will need to get me better commissions than other vendors otherwise I won't be sending any more traffic.

              I will be happy if I get better conversions rates and bigger commissions promoting a vendor even though they may be making additional money by selling other products to my referrals.

              I definitely wouldn't pull my traffic and send it to a different offer paying me less.




              Do you think that when I changed my mind and decided to promote a different set of products, without any vendor's opt-in, that that was syptomatic of a scarcity mindset? You see, I think few people have more of an abundance mindset than I do, and that I was just being realistic and businesslike. So there seems to be a hugely different evaluation, between us, of that situation, doesn't there? And that concerns me, because you're certainly not one of the Warriors I feel comfortable disagreeing with! Can you resolve that, at all, for me?
              Don't worry about disagreeing. I learn a lot from people like you and part of that is from disagreements.

              I only look mean because of my shaved head. hehe

              Yes, I think that is a scarcity mind set when dealing with this topic. You had a problem with vendors and have just resolved that all vendors or most vendors are that way.


              As an example:

              I went through a pretty bad divorce. Now, I could think that all women are bad and I should protect myself and never get married again.

              To be honest, those feelings do pop up from time to time.

              These are the times I slap my head and say their are some great women out there and I just chose the wrong one. I am now blessed to learn from my mistakes and actually spend time with better quality woman.

              Thinking all women are bad is a scarcity mind set.


              Back to affiliate products...

              Did you send "just" enough traffic to test these products or did you send all your traffic to find out you got screwed?

              You must have learned something from the experience.


              But in my case (and I strongly suspect in many other people's cases) that turned out to be 85% of them, Thomas. And it's not like I'm talking about just one or two products, either: I had 7 different products in 7 different niches.
              I suspect a lot are doing that as well from the way affiliates cringe at opt in pages.

              I also don't think those vendors are making a lot of money because of the way they treat their affiliates.

              I should say they aren't making a lot of money from their affiliates which is a total waste.



              With all respect to Andrew, in my opinion (as I've commented in many other threads) this idea simply doesn't stand up to examination at all, for many reasons:-

              (i) It takes 8 weeks to do (the duration of a Clickbank cookie on my prospective customers' computers) - I'm not suggesting they'd do it immediately. There are 12,000 other products there to choose from - why should I have to do that?

              (ii) I'd have no way of knowing, just because I receive nothing amiss, that nobody else does either, would I?

              (iii) I'd have no way of knowing whether the vendor might change his mind about that even after I'd "cleared" him for 8 weeks - and why should I take that chance when I don't have to?
              You need to do what is right for yourself.

              If you feel your time isn't worth sending some traffic to test out a product with a optin then I don't have a problem with it.

              I would be a hypocrite saying it is bad since I don't want to put up a separate sales letter.

              Part of being an affiliate is testing different offers to see which converts better for your traffic.

              Sending just enough traffic to multiple offers for testing will help your roi.

              I don't necessarily think you should send all your traffic but you should be constantly testing offers against your traffic.

              This is one of the reasons all affiliates should be building their lists.

              I don't sell through clickbank so I have control over the cookies lasting longer.

              You may have better luck with more other affiliate programs besides Clickbank.


              How long would it take you to put up the same page again but without the opt-in, Thomas? I'm not making some abstruse, rhetorical point here: seriously, how long would it take you?

              I have absolutely no idea what your products are and am asking this last question purely theoretically, but are you honestly so busy working on increasing your conversions that you don't want me as an affiliate?
              Not long if it was just a sales page.

              I wouldn't feel comfortable just throwing up a sales page without having some different variations to test.

              I know affiliates are spending money and/or time on traffic and I want to get the largest roi for them.

              I would rather focus on one sales funnel and really nail down the upsells and cross sells instead of trying to tweak that funnel and a separate sales page.
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      • Profile picture of the author PeterMichael
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Well, I know I increased my conversions from around 1% to close to 5% changing from a a single sales letter to a carefully crafted sales funnel based on email campaigns and video.
        That was great, thank you for showing a case that it is possible and how much can it give :-)

        I really don't have a problem with the people that say they won't promote a sales page with an opt in. Luckily, there are affiliates who understand more of an abundance mindset and make good money with these types of offers.
        Again a great mindset. But still, why don't people make sure that this email adress is added to a database with affiliate info, so that the affiliate can make money even from future purchases, or even if the first purchase will be made in the future and on another computer? Can someone explain this to me?

        Here in my country we have a biggest ebook publisher ZloteMysli.pl which does exactly that. I haven't been promoting them for 2 years, and I still earn some money.
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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    Alexa, you always use that argument - "I want them on my list".
    Well, the prospect is already on your list. Or if they're not, perhaps they should be.


    Andrew
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by rondo View Post

      Alexa, you always use that argument - "I want them on my list".
      Well, the prospect is already on your list. Or if they're not, perhaps they should be.
      They have to get on your list somehow - and I think this is what Alexa is saying. Send your traffic to a pre-sell page, get them on your list, then you can promote that product and others.
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  • Profile picture of the author PeterMichael
    Originally Posted by Will Edwards View Post

    would you promote a CB product with an opt-in on the sales page
    Hi Ed,

    As we both know, there are many possibilities to make sure that the affiliate partner gets his commision, even though his potential customer/client opted into your list.

    You would have to add information to your database about every opt-in email adress that it comes from such and such affiliate. Then, the affiliate earns money even from other products that you sell, not only from the first one bought.

    I think this is one of the problems of affiliate programs in USA, that they pay only on the front end. There is no possibility to build on that for affiliates - bad in the long term also for your business, because people prefer to make their own products sooner or later.

    If you would communicate it clearly, and the affiliates would start to earn money on your backend, I'm sure that people would start to buzz about it and start promoting you.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    It is really up to the vendor at the end of the day. A lot of the products being sold with optins on the sales page are more amateur marketers who have heard that having an optin increases conversions. I think it is very rarely the intention of those vendors to steal sales or leads from affiliates.

    And many of them are probably not aware they are losing potential affiliates because of the optin form. Sure, a lot of those vendors would happily create another version of the sales page without an optin box if you asked them, but affiliates don't want the hassle. If you don't provide the affiliates with what they want right off the bat, chances are they will move along and promote the next product.

    Vendors take note. Give affiliates what they want or they will walk.
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  • Profile picture of the author woodymcgrath
    I think the opt-in might actually increase promotions if the vendor is ethical and promote the sale with follow-ups

    I do not have an opt-in on my CB product and I'm still deciding if I should...
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  • Profile picture of the author alfredthomson
    i would as it would put trust in the affiliated marketer and they would do the same for me...
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill_Z
    Thanks a ton for your input everyone. As a vendor we just recently added an exit page optin from the sales page to collect leads, and never even thought of adding an alternative sales page without the optin for affiliates to use if they don't want us following up with their traffic. We are going to add it now and notify affiliates, announce it in the affiliate center, and add onto our affiliate follow-ups. You guys rock.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    "Being robbed may be OK for the affiliate...

    Think of this from a pragmatic point of view - if the vendor steals say 25% of your commissions through their opt-in, but still gets you the best earnings per hop - does it matter? "


    If a guy on the street has $ 100 dollars in his pocket, and I rob him of $ 25, don't I still go to jail? (Does stealing not really count when it's labeled as business?)

    Business and ethics...gotta love it.

    I understood what they were trying to say but I do agree that I wouldn't promote that product based on ethics.

    If they are stealing a small percentage now it can be only a matter of time before that percentage increases more and more.

    I would take a pay cut and promote someone that is more honest.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Will, I couldn't answer your poll because I would need to select two options.

      Currently, I don't actively promote Clickbank products.

      Barring extenuating circumstances, I won't promote CB products with an opt-in on the sales page (which also includes pop-ups and exit pops in all their various flavors).

      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I'm interested to know from all you affiliates. Would this change your mind? If you knew that your affiliate id was being used in all the followup emails sent to leads you have generated?
      This would be one of those extenuating circumstances I mentioned. Even then, I'd consider it only if I wasn't building my own list in the niche.

      The bottom line comes down to trust. If I can't trust you, I can't promote for you.

      Originally Posted by rondo View Post

      Alexa, you always use that argument - "I want them on my list".
      Well, the prospect is already on your list. Or if they're not, perhaps they should be.
      As both a consumer and an affiliate, multiple opt-ins are a turn off for me. As one poster mentioned earlier, by the time the prospect actually gets to see the product, they may be on two or three email lists. Faced with that prospect, I suspect most take the easiest choice, and the one they trust: the back button.

      One of the reasons I quit actively promoting CB products was too many sales pages set up to use affiliates as free lead generators to be exploited rather than appreciated. Two of the biggest exploitations are opt-ins on the sales page and links to become an affiliate on the sales page. Barring special circumstances, either of those is enough to kill the deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    "Being robbed may be OK for the affiliate...

    Think of this from a pragmatic point of view - if the vendor steals say 25% of your commissions through their opt-in, but still gets you the best earnings per hop - does it matter? "


    If a guy on the street has $ 100 dollars in his pocket, and I rob him of $ 25, don't I still go to jail? (Does stealing not really count when it's labeled as business?)

    Business and ethics...gotta love it.
    I'm not condoning the practice of stealing affiliate commissions - As a vendor I would never do it - I have have plenty of pre-sales opportunities where I could send a customer a special affiliate link - but I didn't, I gave all the advice the prospect needed for a chance of 25% of the full value, giving 75% to the affiliate who worked hard to get me that lead.
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    This has been an excellent discussion of the issues, so many thanks to everyone who contributed. It seems the results are about 2:1 in favour of not using opt-ins on CB sales pages; something I will be thinking about very carefully.

    Will
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    I promote products I think are good for my customers.

    If I can join an affiliate program for those products, I will, because commissions are nice and I like them.

    If there is no affiliate program, I still promote the product, because I'm not doing it for the commission - I'm doing it because it's good for my customers.

    So if the sales page for that product contains an opt-in which may lead the customer to a mailing list where I don't get a commission when they buy the product, I don't care; it wasn't about the commission in the first place.

    But I still think the vendor who snaked my sale is a scumbag.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Thornhill
      I don't know why so many people seem hung up on promoting a page with an opt-in. I personally don't care one bit. If I can help someone build their list with a promo that's fine by me, hopefully they'll do the same in return for me when I come to launch a product, and when you think about it isn't that was this game is all about?

      All I want to be sure of is the product I am promoting is a quality product and luckily most marketers feel the same, if they didn't there would be no such thing as:-

      Ad swaps
      Butterfly sites
      Pre launch squeeze pages
      MARKETERS PROMOTING EACH OTHERS LAUNCHES.

      I think most people who won't promote a page with an opt-in still have a lot to learn about this business.

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        • Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          You must have not read too much of the thread, then, John: so many experienced, successful affiliates, who have extensively tried ranges of products both with and without vendors' opt-ins, do actually explain their exact reasons above, in some detail.
          Well, here's one experienced, successful affiliate who looks forward promoting the RIGHT opt-in pages because I know by my own stats that it's beneficial for my own business. In fact, I still get paid on old promotions of mine from upsells and new products the vendors release.

          Again, as long as the vendor is honest and they know how to manage their list, it's beneficial for both the vendor and the affiliate.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Thornhill
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          You must have not read too much of the thread, then, John: so many experienced, successful affiliates, who have extensively tried ranges of products both with and without vendors' opt-ins, do actually explain their exact reasons above, in some detail.
          I have read the thread but what I mean is I still don't get why someone would point blank refuse to promote a page just because the page has an opt-in form on it. Yes some people have gave their reasons but when having multiple JV's on board is usually crucial to a product's success, especially during a launch in the long run if you simply point blank refuse to promote something just because an opt-in is on the page then I believe it will hurt your business, especially when you go seeking JV's.

          All my sales pages have opt-in's on but I am prepared to remove opt-ins from an affiliate that requests it, however most don't have a problem promoting my pages and I don't have a problem promoting their pages as long as the product in question will help my subscribers.

          John
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    • Profile picture of the author regska
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I promote products I think are good for my customers.

      If I can join an affiliate program for those products, I will, because commissions are nice and I like them.

      If there is no affiliate program, I still promote the product, because I'm not doing it for the commission - I'm doing it because it's good for my customers.

      So if the sales page for that product contains an opt-in which may lead the customer to a mailing list where I don't get a commission when they buy the product, I don't care; it wasn't about the commission in the first place.

      But I still think the vendor who snaked my sale is a scumbag.
      Nice one CDarklock! We should always think of our subscribers, not the commissions. If you were able to build a good relationship to your customers, chances are, they will purchase through your affiliate link because they really trust you on that. I promote a CB product with or without an opt-in form, what matters for me is, at least I was able to let my subscribers know about the product that might be useful for them.
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  • An opt-in on a sales page can be VERY beneficial to affiliates as long as:

    1) The vendor is honest and doesn't overwrite your affiliate cookie on the email sequence

    2) The sequence is carefully crafted to promote the product.

    But if those two points are checked, it's actually beneficial for you to promote products with a squeeze page or optin form.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rich Blondi
      As a CB vendor, it never occurred to me that an affiliate would rather make zero dollars than get paid a week later when the prospect buys from the promo sequence. Isn't that why CB has 60 day cookies?

      How can a vendor offer multiple choices of landing pages to affiliates? In my CB control panel I just have one spot to enter a landing page...
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

        An opt-in on a sales page can be VERY beneficial to affiliates as long as
        1. NOBODY overwrites your affiliate cookie.

        2. The prospect buys this product.

        Every minute between sending the prospect to the page and the prospect buying the product is an opportunity for someone else - not necessarily the vendor - to hijack that prospect onto either a different affiliate or a different product. An opt-in form gives the prospect an opportunity to wait more minutes, which is definitely NOT to the affiliate's advantage.

        Originally Posted by Rich Blondi View Post

        As a CB vendor, it never occurred to me that an affiliate would rather make zero dollars than get paid a week later when the prospect buys from the promo sequence.
        You don't seem to understand. The affiliate isn't choosing between your product and nothing at all. He's choosing between your product, and some other CB product.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rich Blondi
          I guess, if they're limiting themselves to only a predetermined amount of products to promote. It would seem to me that either the product is profitable to the affiliate or not, I'm surprised that those business decisions are that frequently made using subjective rather than objective data.

          Regardless, since I consider stealing affiliate commissions a stupid business move, I want to give my affiliates whatever they want, regardless of view on it. How can I, as a CB vendor, offer multiple landing pages for them to choose from?
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Rich Blondi View Post

            I guess, if they're limiting themselves to only a predetermined amount of products to promote.
            There's only 24 hours in a day, and therefore only so many products I can promote. That's not my fault.

            I'm surprised that those business decisions are that frequently made using subjective rather than objective data.
            It is objectively possible that a prospect may leave the landing page in two ways: "Buy Now," or some other way. The more other ways there are, the more likely a prospect is to use one of them. Affiliates like "Buy Now" and would prefer it to be as likely as possible.

            How can I, as a CB vendor, offer multiple landing pages for them to choose from?
            http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ffiliates.html
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            • Profile picture of the author Rich Blondi
              Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole thing...

              In my understanding, just because a prospects leaves the landing page DOESN'T mean the affiliate won't credit for a sale later in the sales process. If an affiliate sends a prospect to my landing page and that prospect buys via a link in an email I send them a week or three weeks later, the affiliate STILL gets credit for the sale since they brought them there. I know that's a fact because I have affiliates getting sales credit for offers and back-ends all day long that the prospect ONLY sees because they were in an email sales process. Without the opt-in, none of those sales would have been possible for the affiliate.

              Now if I vendor is short sighted and stupid enough to use their own affiliate link in thier email sequence to cut out the originating affiliate, that's wrong, obviously, but I think that's a "bad vendor" problem and not a "opt-in" problem. I'm sure a vendor unethical enough to do that will find a way to screw the affiliate some other way, sans opt-in or not.

              Or am I misunderstanding from the get-go? If so, help me understand so I can be sure my affiliates are getting everything done right, that's the ultimate goal...

              Rich
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Rich Blondi View Post

                In my understanding, just because a prospects leaves the landing page DOESN'T mean the affiliate won't credit for a sale later in the sales process.
                In a vacuum, no, it doesn't.

                But in the real world, Bob clicks my link and sees your landing page and signs up on the opt-in and then goes back to Google looking for more information to solve his problem. It's the same problem. He will run across other affiliates. He may click their links. And then POOF, my cookie is gone.

                Then Bob says "oh yeah I signed up to that list" and goes to his email to confirm. He gets your link and clicks it and the other affiliate gets the commission even though I'm the one who got the prospect on your list.

                So if I want to be sure I get my commission, I don't want Bob going anywhere after he gets my cookie. I want him to click "Buy Now," and I want him to click it NOW. Before he goes anywhere else or does anything else.

                Now, again: I personally don't care. But this is what other affiliates are so concerned about. Clickbank's last-cookie system (as opposed to a first-cookie system) only works when the cookie and the purchase happen right next to one another. A first-cookie system (like Nanacast uses) suits many affiliates better.

                Which, in my opinion, means that if it's so damn important to you... go find affiliate programs that are on Nanacast instead of Clickbank. There are affiliate programs on both sides of this argument, so you pick your side, and you use those programs. It's that easy.
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          • Profile picture of the author RubenJames
            Just wanted to say that this has been a Truly EXCELLENT discussion!

            Special Thanks goes to Alexa and Thomas!

            Ruben
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        • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          1. NOBODY overwrites your affiliate cookie.

          2. The prospect buys this product.

          Every minute between sending the prospect to the page and the prospect buying the product is an opportunity for someone else - not necessarily the vendor - to hijack that prospect onto either a different affiliate or a different product. An opt-in form gives the prospect an opportunity to wait more minutes, which is definitely NOT to the affiliate's advantage.
          The line in red would be true IF the vendor did not do anything in the mean time to increase the chance of a sale. In the other hand, if he's actively sending emails that prove the quality of the product, the chances DO increase and that goes indeed to the affiliate's advantage.

          If you send a prospect to a dead-end sales page, you have ONE shot to get that sale. If you send a prospect to a squeeze page, you have MULTIPLE chances for that sale (one chance per email on the email sequence)... again, assuming the vendor is not playing nasty tricks.

          Just think about it for a second: why do you think all affiliates jump on board at day #1 of a guru launch (which usually starts with a squeeze page) even if the prospect will not access the sales page until quite a few days later? well, that's because the guru will be doing his job in the meantime by warming up the list.

          It's your job as an affiliate to determine which vendors conduct a savvy mail sequence. But saying that an opt-in form on a sales page goes against the affiliate is plain wrong and... well, shortsighted to be honest.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by PeteSmith View Post

            Doesn't the opt-in list assist with after sales though? Aren't most clickbank sites cookied for 60 days? So if they send follow up sales messages, doesnt this increase the chance of a sale later on?
            The problem with that cookie is that for 60 days, there's a chance of someone else over-writing that cookie - either the vendor, another affiliate or even a piece of security software or cleanup program. If the cookie is erased or written over, the chance of the affiliate getting the sale goes to zero.

            An opt-in list likely does catch some people who are on the fence and converts them later. It also likely catches some people who would have bought, but chose the 'more info' route and decided not to buy.

            There are too many ways to lose the fruits of the affiliate's labor, both innocent and not so much, to make the opt-in desirable. Like any generality, there are exceptions - but the exceptions prove the rule.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

            The line in red would be true IF the vendor did not do anything in the mean time to increase the chance of a sale.
            But that's only good for the vendor. It isn't necessarily good for the affiliate. It's good for SOME affiliate, just not necessarily the same one.

            Vendors, of course, don't generally give a crap whether you get your commission or not. They're okay with someone getting the commission, usually, but who gets it honestly doesn't matter to them.

            Matters to me, though. It makes a difference on my bottom line when someone else gets the commission. But since I personally don't make much of my income from affiliate sales, I assume I'll make nothing from them, and whatever I make is just a nice surprise.

            Someone who makes the lion's share of his income from Clickbank affiliate sales, though, is going to care a whole hell of a lot more.
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            • Profile picture of the author bigbrian
              I always have the "buyer" of my product opt-in before they download the product. This leaves you with a list of made buyers so when you launch a similar site in the same niche you can launch with a bang because you can mail your "made buyers" list. This works very very good! Very good for site flipping as well. ;]

              Brian
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              • Profile picture of the author Susanrh
                As a buyer of Clickbank products in the past I know from personal experience the effect that an optin form has on my intention to buy a product.
                1: optin is a delay in the buying process and any delay gives me time to rethink the intention to get that credit card out.
                2: having filled in the optin form I might decide to wait and see what else I can learn about the product from any emails that come - another delay.
                3: having put off the purchase to 'wait and see' a while later I might come across the same product again, remember my intention to buy and this time go ahead - but as the purchaser I don't know (or care) who is getting the affliate commission.

                So, from an affliate point of view, I wouldn't promote a product that had a vendor optin on the sales page.

                Susan
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                • Profile picture of the author kingprosperity
                  Originally Posted by Susanrh View Post

                  As a buyer of Clickbank products in the past I know from personal experience the effect that an optin form has on my intention to buy a product.
                  1: optin is a delay in the buying process and any delay gives me time to rethink the intention to get that credit card out.
                  2: having filled in the optin form I might decide to wait and see what else I can learn about the product from any emails that come - another delay.
                  3: having put off the purchase to 'wait and see' a while later I might come across the same product again, remember my intention to buy and this time go ahead - but as the purchaser I don't know (or care) who is getting the affliate commission.

                  So, from an affliate point of view, I wouldn't promote a product that had a vendor optin on the sales page.

                  Susan
                  Exactly, That's why I not promote products with list. Vendor can screw you any time. In addition, the free eBooks or quality emails delay the buying process. Most of the time, I also seen that buyers mostly get what they want from free eBooks and if if some vendor is not good at writing quality emails then buyers will try to unsubscribe rather than buying that product.

                  Many disadvantages with an opt-in list. I feel and experienced that.
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  • Profile picture of the author LindaC
    My vote to the question "Would You Promote a ClickBank Product with an Opt-is no.

    My reason why I would not promote any product with an opt-in is...because I don't have to. There are too many other fish in the pond.

    My Best 2 U,

    LindaC
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  • Profile picture of the author AHartzell
    Right now, I have a product that's been on CB for about 24 hours. It already has 26 affiliates and 130 hops. My hoplink is an opt-in that redirects to sales page after submitting info.

    However, I after 130 clicks, I have 1 opt-in and 0 sales. Does that mean I'm getting targeted traffic/sales in the future with a list or am I potentially missing 129 sales that just didn't want to opt-in?
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  • Profile picture of the author WhamSoft
    I often sign up to the vendors opt in in advance of any promotion I do, that way you can get a good idea what happens after sending your traffic to the vendor.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author PeteSmith
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        If you monitor the autoresponder sequence for 60 days (cookie duration).

        And if everyone else gets the same as you (which, with some of the ones I researched, they didn't).

        And if the vendor doesn't ever change his mind.

        Or you can just promote instead, out of the 12,000+ available products there, another one that doesn't give you all those problems.

        Some people might feel that's a bit of a no-brainer.
        Yea. I've just noticed lately that the products with the high gravity all seem to have at least some place on their site where you can enter your email address.
        I also try my best to promote a product I have used an done an honest review on. A lot of these have opt-in lists.
        Helps me sleep at night rather than making up bogus stats and info.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by PeteSmith View Post

          Yea. I've just noticed lately that the products with the high gravity all seem to have at least some place on their site where you can enter your email address.
          I also try my best to promote a product I have used an done an honest review on. A lot of these have opt-in lists.
          Helps me sleep at night rather than making up bogus stats and info.
          Sounds like you're making a pretty broad assumption here. Someone reading this could easily get the idea that you think anyone who promotes items without a mailing list is "making up stats and bogus info."

          One might also infer that unless a seller has an opt-in form on the page, it's impossible to write an honest review.

          Personally, I fail to see what one has to do with another.
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  • Profile picture of the author mm1
    no i would not i really hate that but you also have to love it because its smart marketing but no i think it just gives the vendor and easy way to cut you out of the deal if the person does not buy the first time because it is a known fact in marketing that prospects have to see and advert seven times or more before they make a purchase
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  • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
    Here's how I look at it:

    Would a person willing to whip out their credit card also be a person not willing to submit their email address for more information? Highly unlikely. These are people that need the solution you are offering and are willing to push for it.

    As for the people who are not willing to submit their email address, chances are they are just tire kickers. Do not build your business model around people like this. Opt in should be used whenever you can, especially if it is a sales page with several paragraphs of content.

    No real buyer is going to say "NO I don't want to opt in...but I'll give you my credit card!". It just doesn't happen like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author JordanFrancis
    The reason someone might point blank refuse to promote a product with an opt-in form is because experience has taught them that this is a wise thing to do

    It's one of the many filters that they'll run a product through in order to determine whether to move forward with it or not.

    Of course, it is utterly impossible to say that in 100% of all cases, the vendor will screw you or that your list will be negatively effected by also being on "their" list too...but it's not always practical to determine this. Rarely, if ever, dare I say.
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    • Profile picture of the author lifetime
      Here's why I don't like to promote sales pages with vendor opt-in forms:

      No matter what I am promoting, I usually make MY OWN opt-in page so that prospects can opt in to MY list.

      Once they opt in, they are immediately forwarded to the vendor's sales page, and I think it's just plain confusing to prospects to have them be presented with yet another opt-in form.

      I will make exceptions, depending on the product, and whether or not I know the vendor, but this is my general rule of thumb.

      Cynthia
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        It doesn't matter to me whether or not there is an optin page or not, because I bypass it. This has got nothing to do with any perceptions of the vendor. I always make my own sales and optin pages for any product I promote. In many of the smaller cb niches, the sales pages are absolutely horrific anyway, so I am forced to make my own sales page for my existing subscribers, and then catch a few more with an optin form. Whether or not there is a vendor optin, my subscribers will always get forwarded directly to the order page only.
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        • Profile picture of the author chino007
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          It doesn't matter to me whether or not there is an optin page or not, because I bypass it. This has got nothing to do with any perceptions of the vendor. I always make my own sales and optin pages for any product I promote. In many of the smaller cb niches, the sales pages are absolutely horrific anyway, so I am forced to make my own sales page for my existing subscribers, and then catch a few more with an optin form. Whether or not there is a vendor optin, my subscribers will always get forwarded directly to the order page only.
          Yes, but if the seller don't give you any link directed to the order page, what do you do?
          Do you discard the product, or have some other tool that you are using to have this bypass?
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by chino007 View Post

            Yes, but if the seller don't give you any link directed to the order page, what do you do?
            Do you discard the product, or have some other tool that you are using to have this bypass?
            All you need is the vendors' clickbank id and product number, but that is way beyond the scope and intent of this thread.
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            • Profile picture of the author chino007
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              All you need is the vendors' clickbank id and product number, but that is way beyond the scope and intent of this thread.
              Great thank you. I'll check on the forum for more information about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author JTor
    If the opt-in box is on the first page, I don't promote it.

    But if the sales page uses ExitSplash and, after the user tries to leave, the page shows the opt-in box for a free gift/course/whatever, there is no problem for me. The visitor didn't intend to buy the product at that time based on the sales page, so, there is no problem trying to guarantee the sale later.
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  • Profile picture of the author CharlesDenney
    Originally Posted by Will Edwards View Post

    Hi Guys

    Recently, I have been thinking about removing the opt-in from my ClickBank sales pages. The reason is that I have become aware that not all CB affiliates see the tactic as a good thing.

    One the one hand, there are those who believe that having the vendor follow-up the prospect via the autoresponder sequence will increase sales.

    On the other, there are those who don't always trust vendors who use this tactic. Recognising that it opens the door for misuse by the vendor, they prefer to not promote such products.

    So I'm interested in your views on this matter: would you promote a CB product with an opt-in on the sales page or does the use of this tactic mean that you would never promote the product?

    Thanks

    Will
    Hi Will,

    The truth is, I would not promote a C/B sales page that has opt-in forms. Why would I drive traffic and let someone build their list from the traffic I paid to generate? The way I do it is, I send people to my squeeze page and capture their contact info, then I recommend the C/B affiliate offers by sending prospects directly to the seller's well-written sales page.
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  • Profile picture of the author KatyaSenina
    Why not? You still get commissions. To make sure you can opt-in and click purchase product to see if they are not stealing commissions. If your ID shows up on the bottom, you're fine.

    But.. Why not get them on your list as well?

    Most products these days have an opt-in, especially those in the IM niche. If you avoid them, you won't be left with many options.
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  • Profile picture of the author Darni
    I will, I find that a product with an opt in list converts better.
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  • Profile picture of the author TCrosby
    I don't think a flat out no is the right apprpoach to this. I think it should depend on the niche...

    The niche I am getting into has so little competition, that I am getting sales with like 3 uniques a day, and haven't posted content in 2 weeks, and only have like 6 blog posts total (plus one article, some bookmarking, and blog comments).

    Anyway, this niche has about 30,000 worth of monthly searches, across about 15 keywords, that I should all be able to rank top 3 for by the winter (don't have enought time on my hands right now).

    If I get sales now, and the vendor has an optin, then my sales when I get 5-10k uniques a month (as opposed to like 100 now) will be amazing. Would they be better without the optin? Yea sure, but that doesn't mean this isn't worth promoting.

    Not everything is so black and white
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  • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
    I always avoid the opt in when I'm looking for products. Especially with the awful ones that take over the whole browser session with pop ups.

    There are a few products I've found that convert REALLY well that are well known CB products & they do have opt in lists.

    In these cases I disclose on my site and list that I'm an affiliate and they can purchase through me for some special "bonus" gifts.

    But yeah - it's easy to lose your comission with Clickbank as it is - no reason to make it even easier ;-)

    -Vikram
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  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    Personally, I have "opted-out" of promoting product landing pages with an "opt-in" form...be it above or below the fold, a delayed pop-up, or an exit pop-up/opt-in.

    As much as I would like to trust vendors (and I am sure that there are honest ones out there), I also realize that there some bad apples that can spoil it for everybody...vendors and affiliates alike.

    I work for sales. As far as lists go...I have my own and I want people on that list. I do care about anybody else's.

    If an affiliate compromises on this, then they are giving an inch that will eventually turn into a mile. That is just human nature.

    Additionally, I want to be able to control the number of emails being injected into the people that have opted in to my list. It is not my goal to put them on more lists so that my emails can be crowded out by vendor emails.

    If the vendors sales page is not convincing enough to convert, then we both lose out on the sale. If it takes them multiple visits to decide to purchase, then I prefer them to visit each time by referencing my original email and re-clicking on the link.
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  • Profile picture of the author Slade556
    I've promoted products with opt ins on the salespage before but I don't actively do it that much anymore. In my experience I have had far fewer sales for these products. I realize that doesn't necessarily mean the merchant is untrustworthy as it could be a result of my marketing or the product itself but it's still enough to give me pause. I'd rather send my traffic straight to the salespage instead of building their list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nickolie0990
    I don't understand why anybody will want to put an opt-in form on your sales page. Its not that the people are un-targeted, it's just that the people that do opt-in are of lower quailty then from the people who actually purchase the product.

    Put the opt in form on the download page, but make it 100% optional, NO FORCED OPT-INS.
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  • Profile picture of the author mgpweb
    I actually never thought about promoting products with an opt-in page before, so thanks for the thread its helped me heaps
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  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    It depends upon the product since some do much better
    with follow-up. Generally, I prefer NOT having an
    opt-in on the sales page.

    Not having an opt-in makes having a great pre-sell
    process in place critical.

    I will promote though if I trust the merchant and know
    that I'll get proper credit... a trust issue.

    I have asked merchants to set up landing pages for
    me without an opt-in, and savvy merchants will do
    that for affiliates who can send them lots of prospects.

    I really don't like ANYTHING on the page that pulls
    the customer out of the buying process... such as
    links to the affiliate program, pet projects, etc.

    Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author David Sieg
    Maybe I'm wrong, or naive, but I thought affiliate cookies lasted for an predetermined amount of time? (30 days, 90 days, forever) So even if the prospect buys 45 days later, the affiliate is still credited. Or am I missing something?
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    • Profile picture of the author josoave
      I suppose it depends on what type of product you are selling.

      If it is something rather unique or has an emotional value I would include the opt in. that way you can send a newsletter or an update or upsell a few weeks from now.

      If it's something you can get anywhere else on the internet I guess just try to make the sales as easy as possible without the opt in.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by David Sieg View Post

      Maybe I'm wrong, or naive, but I thought affiliate cookies lasted for an predetermined amount of time? (30 days, 90 days, forever) So even if the prospect buys 45 days later, the affiliate is still credited. Or am I missing something?
      Who knows, maybe both? (Just kidding...)

      What you are missing are the myriad ways that cookie can disappear. Everything from innocent acts like clearing cookies or buying from a different computer to out and out commission theft as vendors place their own affiliate ID in links from the mailing list.

      Even that can be an innocent mistake on the vendor's part, if they use an affiliate ID for tracking.

      Innocent or not, it's still money lost for the affiliate. I'd rather not take the risk...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by David Sieg View Post

      Maybe I'm wrong, or naive, but I thought affiliate cookies lasted for an predetermined amount of time? (30 days, 90 days, forever) So even if the prospect buys 45 days later, the affiliate is still credited. Or am I missing something?
      Hi David,

      ClickBank cookies last 60 days, but can be overwritten at any stage by another hoplink, because "the most recent cookie gets the sale". I think what you're missing is that if the vendor has the prospective customer's email address, the affiliate can't control the outcome any more. ClickBank allows vendors to send their own hoplinks in emails to people on their lists.

      I'm slightly surprised to see this thread bouncing back to life again. It's a longish thread, now, but in it (i.e. 'above') a large number of full-time pro-affiliates explain in great detail all their good and valid reasons for never promoting a product with a vendor's opt-in on the sales page. Recommended reading.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Sieg
    I must be getting old. I always thought cheating your affiliates was like lying to your doctor...Something only the exceptionally stupid would do. Biting the hand that feeds you has never been a path to success. Thanks to you both for clearing it up.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by David Sieg View Post

      I must be getting old. I always thought cheating your affiliates was like lying to your doctor...Something only the exceptionally stupid would do. Biting the hand that feeds you has never been a path to success. Thanks to you both for clearing it up.
      Yep, pretty stupid thing to do.

      On the other hand, if you check Clickbank's TOS, there's nothing in there barring the terminally stupid from opening accounts...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by David Sieg View Post

      I must be getting old. I always thought cheating your affiliates was like lying to your doctor...Something only the exceptionally stupid would do.
      Their main line of defense is that "it's not cheating, because ClickBank allows it", I think.

      ClickBank's view seems to be that once someone opts in to the vendor's list, they "belong" to the vendor. I don't altogether blame ClickBank for "allowing" this, I have to say, because if they didn't, they'd never be able to "police" or "enforce" whatever other policy they had on the point.

      Vendors who "know the business" will often provide an affiliate, on request (if not already available), another version of the sales page without the opt-in - because they know that otherwise they can't attract many serious affiliates anyway. I've asked for this 5 times now, and it's been produced 4 times.
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  • Profile picture of the author mr.gaurabborah
    Personally, I don't promote product with opt-in. I mail the vendor if he could provide me a sale page without an opt-in, I am happy to promote their product or else I just move on. The thing is I am afraid I might not get the commission for the visitors that I referred for which I had to worked hard.
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  • Profile picture of the author .X.
    Wow. I guess most of you guys don't
    know what cookies are or how they
    work!

    We need some basic education here
    folks.
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    • Profile picture of the author RAMarketing
      Originally Posted by .X. View Post

      Wow. I guess most of you guys don't
      know what cookies are or how they
      work!

      We need some basic education here
      folks.
      Since you clearly know more than everyone else here, why don't you provide the basic education?
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by RAMarketing View Post

        Since you clearly know more than everyone else here, why don't you provide the basic education?
        Don't encourage him, please ... not even rhetorically, just in case he takes you seriously!

        It's inevitable in threads like this that people will sometimes post without having read the thread, and as a result miss the point entirely. That goes along with "big, busy forums", unfortunately.

        There's no quality control of forum "information" - people just have to see for themselves that not all opinions are created equal.
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    I say no because if I want an optin on on the sales page of my aff link I'd rather place my own on it.

    Aaron
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Barboza
    I have to have a strong relationship with the vendor in order to provide him with subscribers.
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  • Profile picture of the author RefundHost
    Opt-ins are STUPID when they create a barrier to what you are selling RIGHT NOW.

    Do you really want to prevent someone from seeing your offer just because they
    are fearful of giving their email BEFORE seeing your offer?

    Just to send them 3 pieces of SPAM which will make them hate you and opt out?

    Mind you - opt-ins are SMART when

    - your product is not quite ready yet or not launched yet
    - you want to establish a relationship and quality with a FREE SAMPLE PRODUCT/INFO
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  • Profile picture of the author TanyaJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TanyaJ View Post

      what is "opt-in" on ClickBank sales pages? I'm very bad with terminology, so not sure what are you talking about.
      It's a box on or attached to the sales page into which a potential customer can type his email address, so that the vendor can send him something by email (a "free report", or "free sample", or "free chapter", or "free trial" or "further information" or whatever else the incentive might be).

      This puts the vendor in direct contact with the potential customer before a sale has been made, and means that in the event of a subsequent sale of the product to that potential customer (obviously the vendor's intention), the referring affiliate may not get paid a commission, because ClickBank's view is that once the potential customer has opted in, he "belongs" to the vendor and not to the affiliate. It's a way of losing your leads, in other words.

      As can be seen from all the conversation above, although it's a big and complicated subject with many important aspects of which many people are either entirely unaware, or misunderstand completely, it's fair to conclude from all the threads like this that few serious affiliates are willing to promote such products, unless the vendor has the sense (as many do) also to provide an alternative sales page without the opt-in.

      When it's been my work, skills, time and effort (as an affiliate) that have generated the lead, obviously I want the potential customer on my emailing list, not on the vendor's list: we affiliates have "other stuff to sell", just as vendors do.

      The issue being discussed in this thread isn't about whether the potential customer should be "opted in" (if he's willing) - that's obvious and agreed by all; it's about by whom.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by TanyaJ View Post

      I hope this will not sound too stupid - but what is "opt-in" on ClickBank sales pages? I'm very bad with terminology, so not sure what are you talking about.

      thank you
      Very strange question considering your signature is all about getting people to go to Clickback and opt in to become an affiliate for the "How to do a better bl*w job" product your touting.

      I thought you'd have figured out what an opt in form is considering you know enough to create a product and get it on CB and now come here and recruit affiliates for it.

      :rolleyes:
      Signature

      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    It depends if you can swear by the product, and have received the type of mailings you know the potential subscriber would get so you know it's kosher
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Solomon
    As a vendor, how do you setup several landing page version on clickbank (with/without squeeze page)?

    Do we need multiple clickbank accounts, since we only have one hoplink?

    What is the simplest and most functional way to set that up within one account?

    In our case, the freebies for signup and the paid products build on each other and so do the sales videos and it would not work as well integrated on one page - any ideas how to best do it in this case?

    Should we provide requesting affiliates with the code for the squeeze page so they can replace the aweber code with theirs and plugin our autoresponder emails to add their hoplink for the sales page?

    And, as a question to affiliates in the 10% that produce 90% of the sales - is there a way for vendors to also build their list with your referrals that you would find fair and trustworthy and have no problem with?

    We definitely want to make our affiliates happy and set things up in a way that also works well for larger affiliates - and we would also like to build a sustainable business, for which building our own list seems extremely important...

    Thank you so much for your input!

    Cheers

    Michael
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