Newbies Getting Lazier and Lazier

244 replies
*rant*

Anyone else notice this?

I mean, it's just getting worse here. They all want the magic push button to make money on the internet because it's oh, so easy.

Instead of doing research for themselves, they come here to ask their questions when all it could've taken was a simple search on google for their exact thread title.

Now, I've no issue with helping newbies out. I enjoy it. What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy.

I think a lot of us are to blame for this, as well. I think we're TOO quick to help a lot of the times, and this gives newbies the wrong mindset.

IMO, we should make the newbies try to help themselves before we help them, else they're never going to get anywhere because they don't know how to find the answers to succeed in IM.
#lazier #newbies
  • Profile picture of the author Plish
    This has been happening since I started SEO 4 years ago.

    I started out on DP like most and it's absolutely rife over there. Perhaps it is getting worse but to me it's just as bad as ever. When you can teach yourself something to make lots of $$$, of course people are going to want get rich quick schemes. It's the way of the world and sure, it's very frustrating.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Plish View Post

      This has been happening since I started SEO 4 years ago.

      I started out on DP like most and it's absolutely rife over there. Perhaps it is getting worse but to me it's just as bad.
      DP is the internet's hell, lol.

      I just don't understand why people continue to help people who refuse to help themselves.
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      • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        DP is the internet's hell, lol.
        I think that title goes to 4chan.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          I think that title goes to 4chan.
          No, 4chan is limbo. The people there like it and think they're happy.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    I don't think they are getting lazier because it has always been this way.

    Newbies have ALWAYS been looking for the "magic button" and I'm afraid they will keep at it
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      I don't think they are getting lazier because it has always been this way.
      I disagree. Snowball effect, imo.
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      • Profile picture of the author Plish
        Na. If it is occuring it's purely because IM is becoming more and more popular/important. Perhaps it's partly a snowball effect because some people see others making good money out of IM.
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        • Profile picture of the author wcmylife
          Well the biggest difference with a newbie hitting google and coming to the WF is this.

          When it's google he get's a limited perspective and often the answer is at average to good. With the WF the quality of information drastically increases and he gets PERSPECTIVE from people who have been there done that.

          Here's an example: If someone wanted to outsource social media marketing, he could google and probably go to odesk or freelancer and try out. On the other hand, a warrior could give him a special site or even the e-mail of a VA or a trusted content team that would cut short a huge process.

          Obviously newbies who ask silly questions like how to set up a facebook fan page etc are in a different league.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by wcmylife View Post

            Well the biggest difference with a newbie hitting google and coming to the WF is this.

            When it's google he get's a limited perspective and often the answer is at average to good. With the WF the quality of information drastically increases and he gets PERSPECTIVE from people who have been there done that.

            Here's an example: If someone wanted to outsource social media marketing, he could google and probably go to odesk or freelancer and try out. On the other hand, a warrior could give him a special site or even the e-mail of a VA or a trusted content team that would cut short a huge process.

            Obviously newbies who ask silly questions like how to set up a facebook fan page etc are in a different league.
            Apples and oranges.

            "what is a backlink" is nothing like your example. There are no alternatives, as backlinks has a concrete definition.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

    Anyone else notice this?
    I did a little research. Happens every year. Mid June to late August. Combine that with your knowledge of human society, and what explanation presents itself?

    I think a lot of us are to blame for this, as well. I think we're TOO quick to help a lot of the times, and this gives newbies the wrong mindset.
    I think of it as rope.

    You have a problem? Here's some rope.

    You have another problem? What did you do with the rope I gave you?


    Okay, yeah. Buh-bye now.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
    It may be laziness but a lot of people just like to have their own personal replies to questions they have by starting a thread or they might want the "latest" advice.

    Of course it can be annoying answering the same questions but usually more than 1 person will be needing those answers and its a good refresher for the veterans too.

    Besides the newbies who expect to be spoon fed eventually get bored, quit and go back to their jobs..they don't leach off us forever
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo View Post

      It may be laziness but a lot of people just like to have their own personal replies to questions they have by starting a thread or they might want the "latest" advice.

      Of course it can be annoying answering the same questions but usually more than 1 person will be needing those answers and its a good refresher for the veterans too.

      Besides the newbies who expect to be spoon fed eventually get bored, quit and go back to their jobs..they don't leach off us forever
      See, this is the wrong mindset.

      The search function on the forum has never worked so well
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo View Post

      Of course it can be annoying answering the same questions but usually more than 1 person will be needing those answers and its a good refresher for the veterans too.
      Okay, not to sound too mercenary here, but...

      If you see five newbies ask the same question on the same day, it's time for a $7 WSO.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Okay, not to sound too mercenary here, but...

        If you see five newbies ask the same question on the same day, it's time for a $7 WSO.
        True

        (damned minimum character requirement )
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      • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Okay, not to sound too mercenary here, but...

        If you see five newbies ask the same question on the same day, it's time for a $7 WSO.
        Even better ...pack their bags for them and buy them a ticket to Digital Point
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      • Profile picture of the author deannatroupe
        CDarlock-Your post actually made me laugh out loud!
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      • Profile picture of the author cindybidar
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Okay, not to sound too mercenary here, but...

        If you see five newbies ask the same question on the same day, it's time for a $7 WSO.
        And that's where I became an official CDarlock groupie. Is there a fan club or something I can join?
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      • Profile picture of the author tyroneshum
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Okay, not to sound too mercenary here, but...

        If you see five newbies ask the same question on the same day, it's time for a $7 WSO.
        LOL. This seems right. Sometimes we can get tired answering the same questions all over again so it's better to recommend a much straightforward product to them instead which we're sure they can afford upfront.
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  • Profile picture of the author mlord10
    Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

    *rant*

    Anyone else notice this?

    I mean, it's just getting worse here. They all want the magic push button to make money on the internet because it's oh, so easy.

    Instead of doing research for themselves, they come here to ask their questions when all it could've taken was a simple search on google for their exact thread title.

    Now, I've no issue with helping newbies out. I enjoy it. What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy.

    I think a lot of us are to blame for this, as well. I think we're TOO quick to help a lot of the times, and this gives newbies the wrong mindset.

    IMO, we should make the newbies try to help themselves before we help them, else they're never going to get anywhere because they don't know how to find the answers to succeed in IM.
    I agree with others here: This is not really new. People have been looking for easy ways to make money online for years. Many people think that making money online is much easier than in the offline world, but setting up a business is difficult.

    I view it differently. I try to qualify what newbies I want to help out based on the questions they are asking. I still follow some of the same people that helped me out when I got started, because they did help me!

    My logic is that by helping some newbies get started they will often look to your for advice, and thus buy quality products that you promote. I help because I want to, but it also has a financial benefit to help some newbies.

    Though I must say, seldom do I help newbies who come to the forum and ask "how can I make lots of monies online tonight?"
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by mlord10 View Post

      I agree with others here: This is not really new. People have been looking for easy ways to make money online for years. Many people think that making money online is much easier than in the offline world, but setting up a business is difficult.

      I view it differently. I try to qualify what newbies I want to help out based on the questions they are asking. I still follow some of the same people that helped me out when I got started, because they did help me!

      My logic is that by helping some newbies get started they will often look to your for advice, and thus buy quality products that you promote. I help because I want to, but it also has a financial benefit to help some newbies.

      Though I must say, seldom do I help newbies who come to the forum and ask "how can I make lots of monies online tonight?"
      I never said this is new.

      I said it's getting worse.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    And, I'm more referring to questions along the lines of:
    "How do I add my sitemap to Google?"
    "What's the best way to make money on the internet?"
    etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    But come on can you Blame some of the Newbies out there the first thing we are bombarded with is this sales copy form everyone telling us how easy it is read the WSO's right no there is one showing $700 000.00 in 6 months guaranteed.

    So if it is as easy as the sales copy says surely the WF is just one big magic button of answers.

    I agree some ask questions to easily but that could just be out of genuine ignorance

    I must admit as a very new newbie I am overly protective of us young ones (its the mommy in me )

    I just personally think this thread is a little facetious coming form someone who has been on WF for 2 months.
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    • Profile picture of the author Plish
      ^^^ Just because he's been here for 2 months doesn't really say anything. I've been heavily involved for 4 years and now have a full time career in IM and yet I have been on this site for a couple of weeks. Seems a bit harsh on OP.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
        I realise that but surely if you are able to have a rant about having to answer so many Newbie questions, 2 months is too little time to be worthy of a rant... those Newbie questions are a great way for a New warrior to get his/her post count up and gain a solid reputation( as the OPs post count shows very admirably ) why bite the hand that feeds you

        Originally Posted by Plish View Post

        ^^^ Just because he's been here for 2 months doesn't really say anything. I've been heavily involved for 4 years and now have a full time career in IM and yet I have been on this site for a couple of weeks. Seems a bit harsh on OP.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by nashelver View Post

      But come on can you Blame some of the Newbies out there the first thing we are bombarded with is this sales copy form everyone telling us how easy it is read the WSO's right no there is one showing $700 000.00 in 6 months guaranteed.

      So if it is as easy as the sales copy says surely the WF is just one big magic button of answers.

      I agree some ask questions to easily but that could just be out of genuine ignorance

      I must admit as a very new newbie I am overly protective of us young ones (its the mommy in me )

      I just personally think this thread is a little facetious coming form someone who has been on WF for 2 months.
      To start, this isn't my first account on WF. I had one here years ago but deleted it due to inactivity.

      I've been in IM for years.

      We all know saying about when people assume.


      Read through the thread, I made myself a bit more clear on the specifics of what this thread is referring to.

      And, again, the search function is working as well as ever.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
        I realised you had to be more experienced than 2 months by the quality of your post ,but surely the way you have got too 300 posts in 2 months is answering many of those newbie questions.... Newbies who before this thread might have looked up to you because of how you answered a question of theirs and would have bought a product from you etc etc ...and if you never have answered any of these newbie questions then you actually really have no right to rant do you?

        Sorry i am not trying to be argumentative its just noone rants a bout Newbies when we buy rehashed WSO's and give great reviews because the information is inspiring ....

        If WF was just full of GURUS who would they sell to .... and as Caliban so directly pointed out its a great way to see what the need is amongst nebies so create an easy WSO



        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        To start, this isn't my first account on WF. I had one here years ago but deleted it due to inactivity.

        I've been in IM for years.

        We all know saying about when people assume.


        Read through the thread, I made myself a bit more clear on the specifics of what this thread is referring to.

        And, again, the search function is working as well as ever.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
          Originally Posted by nashelver View Post

          I realised you had to be more experienced than 2 months by the quality of your post ,but surely the way you have got too 300 posts in 2 months is answering many of those newbie questions.... Newbies who before this thread might have looked up to you because of how you answered a question of theirs and would have bought a product from you etc etc ...and if you never have answered any of these newbie questions then you actually really have no right to rant do you?

          Sorry i am not trying to be argumentative its just noone rants a bout Newbies when we buy rehashed WSO's and give great reviews because the information is inspiring ....

          If WF was just full of GURUS who would they sell to .... and as Caliban so directly pointed out its a great way to see what the need is amongst nebies so create an easy WSO
          Again, I stated in my first post of this thread that I have 0 problem with helping newbies and answering questions. I enjoy it.

          What I don't enjoy is spoon feeding newbies who are too lazy to do any of their own due diligence.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post


        We all know saying about when people assume.

        You mean assuming people are lazy because they don't do what you think they should do?

        I also find people lazy when they posts rants that have already been posted before.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        To start, this isn't my first account on WF. I had one here years ago but deleted it due to inactivity.
        If I pay you, will you delete yourself again?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by nashelver View Post

      But come on can you Blame some of the Newbies out there the first thing we are bombarded with is this sales copy form everyone telling us how easy it is read the WSO's right no there is one showing $700 000.00 in 6 months guaranteed.
      Too true although not everyone pushes that kind of thing. Best post in this thread so far. Sellers (some not all) gave people the idea it can be done in a week so everyone assumes its easy and easy attracts the lazy people. Its not all the newbies fault.
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    • Profile picture of the author mlord10
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Oh, and a great question yesterday:

      "What's a backlink?"
      I agree that is pretty sad... but then again it doesn't take too long to answer it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by mlord10 View Post

        I agree that is pretty sad... but then again it doesn't take too long to answer it.
        Point is, we shouldn't be answering it.

        People answering it only perpetuates the problem.
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        • Profile picture of the author mlord10
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          Point is, we shouldn't be answering it.

          People answering it only perpetuates the problem.
          No... the point is you don't like it and you don't have to answer it. That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

          However, if I want to answer it then I can do what I damn well please.
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        • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
          Banned
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          Point is, we shouldn't be answering it.

          People answering it only perpetuates the problem.
          Only if we agree it actually is a problem. I don't. Pretty much every answer here can be found with a simple Google search, but Allen wouldn't have much of a forum if everyone sought their answers elsewhere, would he?

          Here's a thought....if those kinds of threads bother you, don't read them. If those kinds of questions bother you, don't answer them. The rest of us can answer whatever the heck we want. And the newbies can decide for themselves what works best for them instead of some overlord declaring that one way is the best for all. It's a win win for everyone.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by mlord10 View Post

        I agree that is pretty sad... but then again it doesn't take too long to answer it.
        And some of us did. Seriously. And with good information.

        But please, by all means: if you are experienced, stop watching the newbies. Just ignore them. You stay over there thinking your deep thoughts and doing your important stuff.

        And I will keep watching the newbies for our next Trevor Sommerville.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          And I will keep watching the newbies for our next Trevor Sommerville.
          Is our next Trevor Sommerville too lazy to keep watching the newbies for himself?




          P.S. Does anyone know where I can buy some anchor tags?
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    • Profile picture of the author marcus passey
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Oh, and a great question yesterday:

      "What's a backlink?"
      Yeah a newbie may simply not know what a backlink is....

      Thats why he or she is a newbie..

      Marcus
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by marcus passey View Post

        Yeah a newbie may simply not know what a backlink is....

        Thats why he or she is a newbie..

        Marcus
        And the purpose of this thread just flew over your head.
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        • Profile picture of the author marcus passey
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          And the purpose of this thread just flew over your head.

          Ha your just a little rude im not even bothering actually mate...
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          And the purpose of this thread just flew over your head.
          And the purpose of this forum just flew over yours.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ray Erdmann
            "...They all want the magic push button to make money on the internet because it's oh, so easy..."

            Blame those who write the 'copy' for some of the leading products found on Clickbank, Paydotcom and all the rest!

            What do they (the sales letter that is) all proclaim?

            "Fast Riches", "Easy Money", "Overnight Wealth", etc., etc.,...

            So, until the 'truth' starts being advertised, I'm pretty sure the 'Noobs' are going to keep consistently asking for help when they've realized what was told to them and what was explained in the actual material they purchased don't match up!

            That's just my take on it though...
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    • Profile picture of the author theemperor
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Oh, and a great question yesterday:

      "What's a backlink?"
      Dunno, is it a vertebra?
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    I like when they come in and ask a question then demand that only experienced people answer because they don't want to waste their time!

    My feeling is that in order to have your own business you need to be a "self starter" and people who are "self starters" know how to search and find these answers themselves.

    But, I think occasionally there could be someone who just needs a little push and if our answers to their question helps them have the confidence to take action and make some money then I guess it is worth it.

    Lee
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by cashcow View Post

      I like when they come in and ask a question then demand that only experienced people answer because they don't want to waste their time!

      My feeling is that in order to have your own business you need to be a "self starter" and people who are "self starters" know how to search and find these answers themselves.

      But, I think occasionally there could be someone who just needs a little push and if our answers to their question helps them have the confidence to take action and make some money then I guess it is worth it.

      Lee
      This is exactly what I'm talking about. I feel the exact same way.
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      • Profile picture of the author genietoast
        It's been that way since newbies have been newbies.

        Remember, we were newbies once, too. It's a mindset.

        Overtime, it will change.
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinYoung
    People have always been lazy, they're just showing it a little more now. ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Alright, MOST people are not understanding this thread.

    Read the title. Reading the title tells you I'm inferring I believe they're getting lazIER. Not lazy. LazIER.

    The reason for that? Because we allow them to, and help them with their most simple questions that they should have found themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I suppose you could just be thankful for the newbies looking for the magic buttons since so many of you promise the magic buttons that will lead to unimaginable wealth without doing any work ... in your pajamas, no less on all your sales pages.

    Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I suppose you could just be thankful for the newbies looking for the magic buttons since so many of you promise the magic buttons that will lead to unimaginable wealth without doing any work ... in your pajamas, no less on all your sales pages.

      Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
      I guess it's a good thing I don't sell such products then, isn't it?


      Man, we're on a roll with assumptions in this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        I guess it's a good thing I don't sell such products then, isn't it?


        Man, we're on a roll with assumptions in this thread.
        Yeah we are. You assumed I was responding to you when I was responding to the thread ... If I'm responding to you directly, I will quote you.

        That being said, anyone who is too busy or too important to answer newbie questions can just .... errrm ... not answer newbie questions. For those of us who have the time and inclination, we will continue to answer them no matter how annoying the questions seem to others.
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        • Profile picture of the author Biggy Fat
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Yeah we are. You assumed I was responding to you when I was responding to the thread ... If I'm responding to you directly, I will quote you.

          That being said, anyone who is too busy or too important to answer newbie questions can just .... errrm ... not answer newbie questions. For those of us who have the time and inclination, we will continue to answer them no matter how annoying the questions seem to others.
          Couldn't agree more. If you answer any and all newbie questions out there, it proves you genuinely want to help somebody.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by Biggy Fat View Post

            Couldn't agree more. If you answer any and all newbie questions out there, it proves you genuinely want to help somebody.
            But here is what I don't understand:

            Why help someone who isn't trying to help themselves?
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            • Profile picture of the author yves
              Since I have been a member of the warrior forum I have seem nothing but a helpful attitude towards newbies for all the reasons listed. Newbies are an integral part of the forum food chain. When I was a newbie I thankfully didn't get any stick for my labourious questions that I in retrospect, realised had been asked time and time again.

              The search button is great for some things but sometimes, for a newbie, it has to be spelled out it's as simple as that, not remember?
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Biggy Fat View Post

            If you answer any and all newbie questions out there, it proves you genuinely want to help somebody.
            And think about this.

            Ladies, you know exactly how to find out whether a man is honest, right?

            You ask him a question... to which you already know the answer.

            So when you're new to a community, and you want to know who you can trust - what should a smart, socially-savvy person do?

            Ask easy questions.

            "What's a backlink?"

            "How do I get higher Google rankings?"

            "Is there a duplicate content penalty?"

            "Are blogger blogs good for anything?"

            "What is 'listbuilding' and should I do it?"

            Throw that same stuff in Google, and see what comes up. Then look at what people say here.

            Sarcasm, rudeness, insults, more sarcasm, that's just plain wrong, sarcasm again, rudeness, rudeness, "newbie go home," hey - here's a valid and useful response that matches what I got from Google.

            I'm going to go look at that person's other posts. Especially the threads he started himself.

            Don't assume asking a basic question means someone doesn't know the answer. Ron Douglas does that a lot, you might notice, and it's certainly not because he doesn't have any experience or know how to find the answer.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              And think about this.

              Ladies, you know exactly how to find out whether a man is honest, right?

              You ask him a question... to which you already know the answer.

              So when you're new to a community, and you want to know who you can trust - what should a smart, socially-savvy person do?

              Ask easy questions.

              "What's a backlink?"

              "How do I get higher Google rankings?"

              "Is there a duplicate content penalty?"

              "Are blogger blogs good for anything?"

              "What is 'listbuilding' and should I do it?"

              Throw that same stuff in Google, and see what comes up. Then look at what people say here.

              Sarcasm, rudeness, insults, more sarcasm, that's just plain wrong, sarcasm again, rudeness, rudeness, "newbie go home," hey - here's a valid and useful response that matches what I got from Google.

              I'm going to go look at that person's other posts. Especially the threads he started himself.

              Don't assume asking a basic question means someone doesn't know the answer. Ron Douglas does that a lot, you might notice, and it's certainly not because he doesn't have any experience or know how to find the answer.
              I must be the black sheep of the group since I don't market to other marketers. Because of this, I don't care for their intentions.
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi mgtarheels,

                Thanks for the reply.

                What you have replied with contradicts what you originally said -

                But if anyone who has to ask what a backlink is, should not be in the forum. They should either learn the absolute minimum basics or have their VAs, SEOers, etc. do the work.
                If you still don't find it, then post the question. No issue with that, at all.
                If they don't understand the information Google gives them, they need to ask what a backlink is. On that basis (according to your first statement) they shouldn't be in the forum.

                What I learnt here early on when I posted in a manner that was quite similar to yourself, was that if I wanted to engage in a 'wars of words' (for want of a less emotionally evocative expression) then the least I needed to bring to the table was the ability to express myself accurately, or if I failed in that, I needed the ability to -

                retract

                take a step back

                return with a different, less cocky approach and an improved ability to express myself accurately (not leaving myself open to accusations of contradicting myself).

                In my opinion, people who can't at least develop this ability will lose many 'wars of words' and probably won't 'stick' around.

                Also in my opinion, this is a bigger mistake than not knowing what a backlink is - particularly if one is approaching things in a provocative manner - even more particularly if that provocation is aimed at those who are likely to be lacking in 'forum communication confidence' in the first place.

                One thing to remember, though, is that this thread is my opinion. I am no mod, or anyone with power in this forum.
                I'm glad that you are aware of this, but I doubt that many of us needed reminding.

                And about the thread title, it serves the purpose of this thread.
                It might serve the purpose, but words are powerful things and this is a marketing forum that tends to have a bias towards information products. I think it's fair to say that the desire to develop accurate, professional, and powerful communication skills is paramount in most areas of internet business - even more than the ability to understand backlinking.

                If you look at the subtly different alternative thread titles I provided, you should be able to clearly see how little effort it would have taken to make a title that was more accurate, less accusational, less likely to be incorrect, less provocative etc.

                Was the purpose of the thread provocation?
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                  Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                  Hi mgtarheels,

                  Thanks for the reply.

                  What you have replied with contradicts what you originally said -

                  If they don't understand the information Google gives them, they need to ask what a backlink is. On that basis (according to your first statement) they shouldn't be in the forum.

                  What I learnt here early on when I posted in a manner that was quite similar to yourself, was that if I wanted to engage in a 'wars of words' (for want of a less emotionally evocative expression) then the least I needed to bring to the table was the ability to express myself accurately, or if I failed in that, I needed the ability to -

                  retract

                  take a step back

                  return with a different, less cocky approach and an improved ability to express myself accurately (not leaving myself open to accusations of contradicting myself).

                  In my opinion, people who can't at least develop this ability will lose many 'wars of words' and probably won't 'stick' around.

                  Also in my opinion, this is a bigger mistake than not knowing what a backlink is - particularly if one is approaching things in a provocative manner - even more particularly if that provocation is aimed at those who are likely to be lacking in 'forum communication confidence' in the first place.

                  I'm glad that you are aware of this, but I doubt that many of us needed reminding.

                  It might serve the purpose, but words are powerful things and this is a marketing forum that tends to have a bias towards information products. I think it's fair to say that the desire to develop accurate, professional, and powerful communication skills is paramount in most areas of internet business - even more than the ability to understand backlinking.

                  If you look at the subtly different alternative thread titles I provided, you should be able to clearly see how little effort it would have taken to make a title that was more accurate, less accusational, less likely to be incorrect, less provocative etc.

                  Was the purpose of the thread provocation?
                  Gah, your replies are too long.

                  It doesn't contradict what I said. If you don't know what a backlink is, you shouldn't be on this forum. Plain and simple.

                  Youre trying to compare apples and oranges, without revealing the oranges. Backlinks are thoroughly and clearly explained through the first page of results. If you cannot understand that, you should not be on this forum and instead should be back in second grade.

                  Again, I'm the black sheep, apparently. The people on this forum are not my targeted audience, thus I do not treat them as such.

                  I've been in IM for years, it is my full-time job, and I don't see myself leaving. I apparently defy your opinion.

                  I stated me not being a mod or the like is because without being a person of power, I cannot dictate the actions of others.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                I don't market to other marketers. Because of this, I don't care for their intentions.
                Marketers are human beings. Because of this, I do.

                Do you not market to human beings?

                How unusual.
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                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                Again, I'm the black sheep, apparently.
                Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                I must be the black sheep of the group


                a person who causes shame or embarrassment because of deviation from the accepted standards of his or her group
                Dictionary.com^

                A member of a family or other group who is considered undesirable or disreputable.
                Thefreedictionary.com^


                I'm going to go with "undesirable" and agree with your ASSumption

                Perhaps, you should have done your research and "Googled" that before using it to refer to yourself within a bunch of posts where you literally prove it to be true? <that advice, free of charge and my pleasure.

                :p
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                • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                  I'm no n00b, but I am getting lazier and lazier...
                  Signature

                  :)

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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

                  Perhaps, you should have done your research and "Googled" that before using it to refer to yourself?
                  Or, on the other hand, maybe he uses this definition...

                  misfit: somebody regarded by the other members of a family or group as not living up to their standards and expectations
                  (Encarta World English Dictionary, North American Edition)

                  Notice that the only important aspect is that the other members of the group regard him as though he does not live up to those standards and expectations.

                  It doesn't matter whether he actually does live up to them, let alone whether they are rational and reasonable - or, indeed, whether he has the same standards and expectations himself.

                  I'm all for getting anal retentive about the definitions of words, but when a better interpretation exists, it's disingenuous to insist on the inappropriate one.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Or, on the other hand, maybe he uses this definition...



                    (Encarta World English Dictionary, North American Edition)

                    Notice that the only important aspect is that the other members of the group regard him as though he does not live up to those standards and expectations.

                    It doesn't matter whether he actually does live up to them, let alone whether they are rational and reasonable - or, indeed, whether he has the same standards and expectations himself.

                    I'm all for getting anal retentive about the definitions of words, but when a better interpretation exists, it's disingenuous to insist on the inappropriate one.
                    Ha! See, now there is an expert you know has the newbies back. Thank you CD, I'd hate to be disingenuous and give the OP a tiny little thread of opportunity to be even MORE clever.

                    Quite the dinner the little wind bag went to, perhaps he got enough backlinks to the severely weak site in his sig.?

                    Sorry, Tarheels I simply do not like this thread (EDIT), otherwise I would never call anyone a windbag. Regardless of your tiny hints and intentions throughout this thread to reveal the "purpose" of it, it is still low and taking advantage of this forum's success to further yours, well supposed success of yours that is.
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          While there is some truth to what you say I think you're being a little uncharitable.

          When you're starting out in a field and you have no knowledge the questions you ask are always going to seem to be painfully obvious to someone who's been in the field for a few years.

          We answer the newbie questions in the hopes that THIS newbie will really put in some effort and turn that advice into something worthwhile.

          Yes there are people who are just plain lazy but it's almost impossible to tell those from the people who just have almost no knowledge and are looking for help when they're starting out.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author Mini Michael
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I suppose you could just be thankful for the newbies looking for the magic buttons since so many of you promise the magic buttons that will lead to unimaginable wealth without doing any work ... in your pajamas, no less on all your sales pages.

      Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
      I'm a so called "newbie" and I couldn't agree more with Sbucciarel
      The reason I am here is because of so called "guru" products telling me how easy it is. Fortunatly I reckon I'm just abit older and hopefully a bit wiser, NOT cleverer, but wiser, than at lot of younger newbies on here chasing a dream, and I didn't quite belive what I read.
      The reason I joined this forum was the belief that this (or any other forums for that matter) was the place where people talk about a subject and share some of their experiances.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Alright, read through the comments.

        The vast majority of you are completely misunderstanding the point of this thread. Maybe most of you should reread the following:

        "Now, I've no issue with helping newbies out. I enjoy it. What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy."

        "I never said this is new.

        I said it's getting worse."

        "I like when they come in and ask a question then demand that only experienced people answer because they don't want to waste their time!

        My feeling is that in order to have your own business you need to be a "self starter" and people who are "self starters" know how to search and find these answers themselves.

        But, I think occasionally there could be someone who just needs a little push and if our answers to their question helps them have the confidence to take action and make some money then I guess it is worth it."


        "Again, I stated in my first post of this thread that I have 0 problem with helping newbies and answering questions. I enjoy it.

        What I don't enjoy is spoon feeding newbies who are too lazy to do any of their own due diligence."


        So, since most of you still didn't understand that, if you read the thread, let me simplify it even more.

        I don't mind answering questions that people truly struggle to find the answer to. I do mind answering questions along the lines of "what is a backlink" when a simple google search finds everything you need to know.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi CDarklock,

          Actually, this thread has led me to establish a rapport with several Warriors behind the scenes, and at this very moment I have a measurable impact on my bottom line from it.
          Thank heaven you didn't make a typo and leave the third last word out of that sentence.

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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          Alright, read through the comments.

          The vast majority of you are completely misunderstanding the point of this thread. Maybe most of you should reread the following:

          "Now, I've no issue with helping newbies out. I enjoy it. What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy."

          "I never said this is new.

          I said it's getting worse."

          "I like when they come in and ask a question then demand that only experienced people answer because they don't want to waste their time!

          My feeling is that in order to have your own business you need to be a "self starter" and people who are "self starters" know how to search and find these answers themselves.

          But, I think occasionally there could be someone who just needs a little push and if our answers to their question helps them have the confidence to take action and make some money then I guess it is worth it."


          "Again, I stated in my first post of this thread that I have 0 problem with helping newbies and answering questions. I enjoy it.

          What I don't enjoy is spoon feeding newbies who are too lazy to do any of their own due diligence."


          So, since most of you still didn't understand that, if you read the thread, let me simplify it even more.

          I don't mind answering questions that people truly struggle to find the answer to. I do mind answering questions along the lines of "what is a backlink" when a simple google search finds everything you need to know.
          Hi Michael,

          Where we disagree on appears to be the definition of "truly struggle to find the answer to". Because if they are asking here, then they ARE trying to find the answer. The only difference is that thwy aren't doing it in a way that you like.

          And, no, people are NOT getting lazier. That's only an illusion that you have come to accept as reality. And then every time you see something that supports that belief, you take it as more proof. Just for fun, try looking at things objectively and look for proof that new people are working harder and harder. Trust me, the evidence is there.

          Don't get me wrong, I do the same thing; we all do. We accept something as fact and then see things as evidence to support what we believe.

          Ultimately, what's the difference if they are searching for answers here, or on Google? In both cases they are taking action, they are trying to learn. By going to Google, they have to trust what they read. On the Warrior Forum, they have the benefit of answers based on real-world experience.

          Besides, who are you to decide what questions make somebody lazy, and which ones don't?

          Like many others have said, if you think the question could be easily answered, or you don't like it, then DON'T ANSWER IT. Easy. You go along your merry way, and the asker goes along their merry way.

          That's my take on it anyway.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Signature

          "Ich bin en fuego!"
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Per your first paragraph, then please explain the difficulty in finding the answer to, "what is a backlink?".

            Per your second paragraph, I think people are becoming much more lazy than ever. I think it's a generation thing. I believe my generation is much more lazy as a whole than my parents generation. I think most would agree with this, mostly because of the evolution of technology.

            Who am I to decide what questions make one lazy? Lol, look under my username. It's my opinion.

            You're being a hypocrite in being full of angst telling me not to answer something I dislike on this forum, yet here you are trying to scold me as if I was a child. Irony.
            Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

            Hi Michael,

            Where we disagree on appears to be the definition of "truly struggle to find the answer to". Because if they are asking here, then they ARE trying to find the answer. The only difference is that thwy aren't doing it in a way that you like.

            And, no, people are NOT getting lazier. That's only an illusion that you have come to accept as reality. And then every time you see something that supports that belief, you take it as more proof. Just for fun, try looking at things objectively and look for proof that new people are working harder and harder. Trust me, the evidence is there.

            Don't get me wrong, I do the same thing; we all do. We accept something as fact and then see things as evidence to support what we believe.

            Ultimately, what's the difference if they are searching for answers here, or on Google? In both cases they are taking action, they are trying to learn. By going to Google, they have to trust what they read. On the Warrior Forum, they have the benefit of answers based on real-world experience.

            Besides, who are you to decide what questions make somebody lazy, and which ones don't?

            Like many others have said, if you think the question could be easily answered, or you don't like it, then DON'T ANSWER IT. Easy. You go along your merry way, and the asker goes along their merry way.

            That's my take on it anyway.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
              Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

              Per your first paragraph, then please explain the difficulty in finding the answer to, "what is a backlink?".
              I'm not saying it's a difficult question to answer. My point there was what difference does it make if they ask here or at Google, then I went on to explain why asking here could be the better choice.

              Per your second paragraph, I think people are becoming much more lazy than ever. I think it's a generation thing. I believe my generation is much more lazy as a whole than my parents generation. I think most would agree with this, mostly because of the evolution of technology.
              I don't happen to agree, but that doesn't make either one of us right. Also, it doesn't matter what "most" people think about anything. For example, most people think ghosts exist, but I don't, and the fact that most people do doesn't sway my beliefs one little bit. Now, that could be the exact same argument you use, and that's okay. This is just one point we don't agree on.

              Who am I to decide what questions make one lazy? Lol, look under my username. It's my opinion.
              Absolutely correct. And re-reading, I probably could have worded it differently to say "Besides, who are any of us to decide...?" Because that's what I actually meant. Not just you, but me or anybody else here.

              You're being a hypocrite in being full of angst telling me not to answer something I dislike on this forum, yet here you are trying to scold me as if I was a child. Irony.
              There's no angst here at all. And it's not being hypocritical. I am simply sharing my views on the topic you brought up. That is what you asked for. That is a lot different than answering a "simple" question. There is a difference. And I am not scolding you at all. If you are seeing angst, hypocrisy and scolding, then you are misinterpreting my comments.

              Now, that being said, I would have no problem if you went into a thread and suggested that somebody use Google to find the answer.

              There are plenty of questions that get asked repeatedly, but I don't fault the asker. Sometimes I answer, sometimes I don't. But I don't worked up because they are asking a simple question ("How do I convert Word to PDF?" is my favorite).

              There is one other thing that you may not have thought about (maybe you have, maybe not, I don't know). Just because somebody is asking here doesn't mean they didn't ALREADY do a search at Google. Maybe they got conflicting answers, or want an answer that is coming FROM marketers FOR marketers. Just a thought.

              But in the bigger scope of things, I don't care if somebody prefers to ask a question here. That's one of the beauties of the forum, there are all skill levels. In fact, it's kind of nice to get a nice slow-pitch question once in a while.

              Anyway, none of this is a personal attack against you at all. I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't bother me. And, that if it bothers you, then why waste your time getting mad about it? Just answer the questions you want to answer. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to suggest.

              All the best,
              Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

              I believe my generation is much more lazy as a whole than my parents generation.
              Not even. Go look up what your parents' generation was doing at your age.
              Signature
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

              Per your first paragraph, then please explain the difficulty in finding the answer to, "what is a backlink?".

              Per your second paragraph, I think people are becoming much more lazy than ever. I think it's a generation thing. I believe my generation is much more lazy as a whole than my parents generation. I think most would agree with this, mostly because of the evolution of technology.
              And per the ensuing five pages of discussion that you started, many think you are rude and arrogant. I think that most are happy that you don't get to decide what is asked and answered here.
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        • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          Alright, read through the comments.

          The vast majority of you are completely misunderstanding the point of this thread. Maybe most of you should reread the following:

          "Now, I've no issue with helping newbies out. I enjoy it. What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy."

          "I never said this is new.

          I said it's getting worse."

          "I like when they come in and ask a question then demand that only experienced people answer because they don't want to waste their time!

          My feeling is that in order to have your own business you need to be a "self starter" and people who are "self starters" know how to search and find these answers themselves.

          But, I think occasionally there could be someone who just needs a little push and if our answers to their question helps them have the confidence to take action and make some money then I guess it is worth it."


          "Again, I stated in my first post of this thread that I have 0 problem with helping newbies and answering questions. I enjoy it.

          What I don't enjoy is spoon feeding newbies who are too lazy to do any of their own due diligence."


          So, since most of you still didn't understand that, if you read the thread, let me simplify it even more.

          I don't mind answering questions that people truly struggle to find the answer to. I do mind answering questions along the lines of "what is a backlink" when a simple google search finds everything you need to know.
          I wouldn't say it is those who have responded who are obtuse and missing your intended point. What you fail to realize, or admit to, is that your tone and mannerisms within your writing give off a very negative impression of you. You can reflect the misconception outward to those who you say do not understand all you want, the fact remains that your ego is the only thing getting in the way.

          Tolerance usually comes with maturity so perhaps there is still hope for you, I have faith in you . A newbie does not require as much good information as they do positive reinforcement in my opinion so in relation to that statement there is no amount of questions answered with cockiness and arrogance that will ever help them much. They don't come in here to post up an obvious question just to annoy someone, regardless of if they could have researched it or not this issue is easily solved. Either avoid the question, or politely instruct them and add in they can find a lot of help on google in the future, keeping with what your own ethics should be that's about all you can do.

          Remember though, a newbie is in the trenches and tons and tons of them struggle to make sense of things while also trying to avoid those who are out to scam them out of their money. Perhaps their question doesn't just need answered but they need to interact with a positive influence to keep their head up and trudge through the start up period that all established marketers KNOW they would not want to go back to without the knowledge they possess today.

          The point of this thread is unnecessary and pretty close to the same thing as complaining about horrible drivers on the road or that the grass needs cut again, inevitable things.


          The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important than facts.... We cannot change our past...we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10 percent what happens to me and 90 percent how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our attitudes. ~Charles R. Swindoll
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

            I wouldn't say it is those who have responded who are obtuse and missing your intended point. What you fail to realize, or admit to, is that your tone and mannerisms within your writing give off a very negative impression of you. You can reflect the misconception outward to those who you say do not understand all you want, the fact remains that your ego is the only thing getting in the way.

            Tolerance usually comes with maturity so perhaps there is still hope for you, I have faith in you . A newbie does not require as much good information as they do positive reinforcement in my opinion so in relation to that statement there is no amount of questions answered with cockiness and arrogance that will ever help them much. They don't come in here to post up an obvious question just to annoy someone, regardless of if they could have researched it or not this issue is easily solved. Either avoid the question, or politely instruct them and add in they can find a lot of help on google in the future, keeping with what your own ethics should be that's about all you can do.

            Remember though, a newbie is in the trenches and tons and tons of them struggle to make sense of things while also trying to avoid those who are out to scam them out of their money. Perhaps their question doesn't just need answered but they need to interact with a positive influence to keep their head up and trudge through the start up period that all established marketers KNOW they would not want to go back to without the knowledge they possess today.

            The point of this thread is unnecessary and pretty close to the same thing as complaining about horrible drivers on the road or that the grass needs cut again, inevitable things.
            Lol get out of here. I never once questioned their intentions. If the point of this thread was unneccessary, it wouldn't have the amount of replies it has, the amount of people agreeing, and the amount of people disagreeing. I think the thread has served purpose, and Im sure I've convinced at least one person to check google for their question before seeking their answer here. Odds are with me on the amount of views this has.

            If you don't like this thread, thanks for your 0 contribution, and the door is that way --->
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            • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
              I really hesitate to get embroiled in this, but after spending almost a half hour reading this thread, I feel like I need to respond to get something back for that time :rolleyes:

              I can't say I disagree with what seems to be bugging you in your initial post. Some people ask questions that have either seemingly been asked ad infinitum, or could have been found with a simple Google search. A little bit of effort on their part might have easily found the answer without adding another thread covering essentially the same thing that has been asked & answered numerous time.

              Having said that, who's to say that those people are lazy? Maybe they don't really know that much about computers and the internet, and aren't as quick to hit Google as we would be (those people do exist, even though we take all this stuff for granted).

              Or maybe they've been burned with bad information from Google before (there's plenty in there) and would rather go somewhere that seems to have some experts in the field. But of course, not knowing the "rules" of the forum or how to find something that might already be there, they just up and ask their question.

              If you're sick and want information about what's wrong, would you rather go to Google for the answer, or ask a doctor who should reasonably know what he's talking about? If he's heard that question dozens of times before and knows the answer is in Google, does that mean he should be annoyed by your question and consider you lazy?

              Getting bad information about a health related issue might be a little more serious than getting bad information about what a backlink is, but the basic principle is the same. To someone who knows little or nothing about internet marketing, the people on this forum are experts in the field, just like a doctor might be for a health issue.

              John
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                Originally Posted by nichescape View Post

                I really hesitate to get embroiled in this, but after spending almost a half hour reading this thread, I feel like I need to respond to get something back for that time :rolleyes:

                I can't say I disagree with what seems to be bugging you in your initial post. Some people ask questions that have either seemingly been asked ad infinitum, or could have been found with a simple Google search. A little bit of effort on their part might have easily found the answer without adding another thread covering essentially the same thing that has been asked & answered numerous time.

                Having said that, who's to say that those people are lazy? Maybe they don't really know that much about computers and the internet, and aren't as quick to hit Google as we would be (those people do exist, even though we take all this stuff for granted).

                Or maybe they've been burned with bad information from Google before (there's plenty in there) and would rather go somewhere that seems to have some experts in the field. But of course, not knowing the "rules" of the forum or how to find something that might already be there, they just up and ask their question.

                If you're sick and want information about what's wrong, would you rather go to Google for the answer, or ask a doctor who should reasonably know what he's talking about? If he's heard that question dozens of times before and knows the answer is in Google, does that mean he should be annoyed by your question and consider you lazy?

                Getting bad information about a health related issue might be a little more serious than getting bad information about what a backlink is, but the basic principle is the same. To someone who knows little or nothing about internet marketing, the people on this forum are experts in the field, just like a doctor might be for a health issue.

                John
                You really think asking someone here what a backlink is and search the same on google is that same as asking your doctor whats wrong with you because of your ailments?

                That's like comparing apples are rocks, let along oranges.
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                • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
                  Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                  You really think asking someone here what a backlink is and search the same on google is that same as asking your doctor whats wrong with you because of your ailments?

                  That's like comparing apples are rocks, let along oranges.
                  What I think is that to someone who doesn't know the answer to a question, that question can seem like a big deal. If you know the answer to it, it doesn't seem like such a big deal.

                  Let's say someone has heard that backlinks are critical to your site's success. Quite possible, if they've seen anything about SEO. Does it not make sense that something that "critical" might warrant an expert opinion, rather than some random site from Google?

                  Just like a health related issue would warrant an expert opinion from a doctor, rather from some random site in Google.

                  Like I said in my first post, the *principle* is the same, not the degree of seriousness.

                  John
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                    Originally Posted by nichescape View Post

                    What I think is that to someone who doesn't know the answer to a question, that question can seem like a big deal. If you know the answer to it, it doesn't seem like such a big deal.

                    Let's say someone has heard that backlinks are critical to your site's success. Quite possible, if they've seen anything about SEO. Does it not make sense that something that "critical" might warrant an expert opinion, rather than some random site from Google?

                    Just like a health related issue would warrant an expert opinion from a doctor, rather from some random site in Google.

                    Like I said in my first post, the *principle* is the same, not the degree of seriousness.

                    John
                    I can agree to an extent, but since we're using the backlinks example, wouldn't Wikipedia stand as an authority?
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                    • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
                      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                      I can agree to an extent, but since we're using the backlinks example, wouldn't Wikipedia stand as an authority?
                      Maybe, maybe not. I've read lots of stuff in Wikipedia that is inaccurate or just flat-out wrong. And again, to someone who is new to internet marketing and maybe to the internet as a whole, they might not know of Wikipedia. Or they might have been in a class where the teacher has told them that they are not to use Wikipedia as a source, because it's unreliable.

                      There are lots of reasons that someone could potentially go looking for a more "authoritative" source than what they might find in Google, justified or not.

                      I don't remember whether the backlinks example was your or someone else's, and I don't want to take the time to go searching back through this thread, but it's only one example out of many. It just happens to be the one that seems to have become the "representative question" for this issue.

                      I think the point is (and in my opinion others have already stated this in the thread, in some form or another) that we shouldn't be casting judgement on a "newbie" as being lazy and inconsiderate for asking a question in a place where it would seem the other members would be able to answer authoritatively.

                      Sure, they might be too lazy to look it up themselves, but they also might have perfectly good reasons for NOT going where you think they should go to find that information before asking here (or emailing you, or whatever the venue might be). But if they see a thread like this one, it's a safe bet they're going to hesitate to ask ANY questions for fear of being told they're lazy and shouldn't be asking that here.

                      After all, they're new so how do they know what is or isn't a reasonable question?

                      John
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                        Originally Posted by nichescape View Post

                        Maybe, maybe not. I've read lots of stuff in Wikipedia that is inaccurate or just flat-out wrong. And again, to someone who is new to internet marketing and maybe to the internet as a whole, they might not know of Wikipedia. Or they might have been in a class where the teacher has told them that they are not to use Wikipedia as a source, because it's unreliable.

                        There are lots of reasons that someone could potentially go looking for a more "authoritative" source than what they might find in Google, justified or not.

                        I don't remember whether the backlinks example was your or someone else's, and I don't want to take the time to go searching back through this thread, but it's only one example out of many. It just happens to be the one that seems to have become the "representative question" for this issue.

                        I think the point is (and in my opinion others have already stated this in the thread, in some form or another) that we shouldn't be casting judgement on a "newbie" as being lazy and inconsiderate for asking a question in a place where it would seem the other members would be able to answer authoritatively.

                        Sure, they might be too lazy to look it up themselves, but they also might have perfectly good reasons for NOT going where you think they should go to find that information before asking here (or emailing you, or whatever the venue might be). But if they see a thread like this one, it's a safe bet they're going to hesitate to ask ANY questions for fear of being told they're lazy and shouldn't be asking that here.

                        After all, they're new so how do they know what is or isn't a reasonable question?

                        John
                        It was my example, because it was a real thread two days ago.

                        If they hesitate to ask any questions, then that is their own fault. It's been expressed multiple times, that I don't mind people asking questions if they've done their due diligence. Many others in this thread have expressed their disagreement.

                        Seems you and I just don't see eye to eye on this one
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                  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                    Michael Grant, you keep coming back to one question which seems to be what set you off - "what is a backlink?

                    Just from curiosity, I did that exact Google search. If I were a schoolkid doing a paper for school, I would have been satisfied with that first, precise definition. If I'm a new marketer trying to figure things out, by the time I get to the bottom of the page I'm confused. At the bottom of the page, I see even more suggestions to search from Google.

                    So I go looking for answers I can trust. Maybe I'm a bit clumsy framing the question. Maybe my English isn't so good.

                    What I'm not is some lazy sod looking for an arrogant SOB to tell me I don't belong on a forum because I didn't ask my question the way he thinks I should have.

                    You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to think it's worth what it cost me.

                    I was ready to let your first dismissal go, but after seeing your responses here, I stand by my post. (Made after reading every post in the thread, by the way. So much for clairvoyance...)
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                      Michael Grant, you keep coming back to one question which seems to be what set you off - "what is a backlink?

                      Just from curiosity, I did that exact Google search. If I were a schoolkid doing a paper for school, I would have been satisfied with that first, precise definition. If I'm a new marketer trying to figure things out, by the time I get to the bottom of the page I'm confused. At the bottom of the page, I see even more suggestions to search from Google.

                      So I go looking for answers I can trust. Maybe I'm a bit clumsy framing the question. Maybe my English isn't so good.

                      What I'm not is some lazy sod looking for an arrogant SOB to tell me I don't belong on a forum because I didn't ask my question the way he thinks I should have.

                      You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to think it's worth what it cost me.

                      I was ready to let your first dismissal go, but after seeing your responses here, I stand by my post. (Made after reading every post in the thread, by the way. So much for clairvoyance...)
                      I'm going to spell this out extremely easily for you. Maybe, just maybe, this time you'll be able to grasp the concept.

                      Remember me saying that if they've done their due diligence and haven't found the answer, then I've no problem with them asking the question? If not, reread the thread, it's been mentioned 5+ times.

                      Also, since when is the Internet in only one language?

                      If someone doesn't know what a backlink is, they need to take the time to learn what it is, along with other basics, before stepping onto a website like this. It's for their own good. Do you see people using telephones without knowing what a phone number is? What about the Internet without knowing what a computer was?

                      It's a pillar needed for their foundation and the understanding of their education.

                      Again, it's an opinion, something you struggle to grasp the meaning of. You're another one, that if you don't like the opinion, then the door is that way --->

                      You're too simplistic to notice you're doing exactly what you're preaching against.
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                        Remember me saying that if they've done their due diligence and haven't found the answer, then I've no problem with them asking the question?
                        How do you know?

                        It's a serious question.

                        If someone comes in here and does not know the answer to a question, and they've looked for the answer but not found it, the question is still the same - right?

                        And the answer is still the same, too - right?

                        So what's the difference? What magical change happens that makes the same question okay?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                          How do you know?

                          It's a serious question.

                          If someone comes in here and does not know the answer to a question, and they've looked for the answer but not found it, the question is still the same - right?

                          And the answer is still the same, too - right?

                          So what's the difference? What magical change happens that makes the same question okay?
                          It's a common sense factor. Since we've been running with the backlinks example, I'll use it again. Just a simple Google search. If the searcher still doesn't understand, then I don't think learning to make money on the Internet is their biggest problem.
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                      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                        I'm going to spell this out extremely easily for you. Maybe, just maybe, this time you'll be able to grasp the concept.

                        Remember me saying that if they've done their due diligence and haven't found the answer, then I've no problem with them asking the question? If not, reread the thread, it's been mentioned 5+ times.

                        Also, since when is the Internet in only one language?

                        If someone doesn't know what a backlink is, they need to take the time to learn what it is, along with other basics, before stepping onto a website like this. It's for their own good. Do you see people using telephones without knowing what a phone number is? What about the Internet without knowing what a computer was?

                        It's a pillar needed for their foundation and the understanding of their education.

                        Again, it's an opinion, something you struggle to grasp the meaning of. You're another one, that if you don't like the opinion, then the door is that way --->

                        You're too simplistic to notice you're doing exactly what you're preaching against.
                        Gee, I guess you told me, huh?

                        Hey, folks, now that I know where the door is, I guess I'll be running along...

                        Yeah, right.

                        Grant, I'm not going to try matching wits with you. It's too much like starting a butt-kicking contest with a one-legged opponent. Get back to me when you grow up. I'm done with you.
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            • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
              Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

              Lol get out of here. I never once questioned their intentions. If the point of this thread was unneccessary, it wouldn't have the amount of replies it has, the amount of people agreeing, and the amount of people disagreeing. I think the thread has served purpose, and Im sure I've convinced at least one person to check google for their question before answering. Odds are with me on the amount of views this has.

              If you don't like this thread, thanks for your 0 contribution, and the door is that way --->

              Haha, one thing I do immaturely enjoy, rattling the chains of the chain rattlers.

              Questioning intentions and tolerating them are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Taking the time to answer questions is not required but I would say being polite and tolerant is if your going to interact with those who ask.

              Re-read my post, I did not say the thread is unnecessary, I said the POINT of it is.

              If you set out to convince one person to go to google first, would it bother you to know how many you convinced to regard you as impolite and seemingly more arrogant then helpful? Would that be counter-productive if you ever need help or do you really have all the answers?

              Get out of here?

              ...No you :p lol

              Okay, sorry to derail your thread which you are trying to get back on point.

              Are newbies getting lazier?

              No, the grass is going to grow and newbies are going to ask questions. Some experts are going to scoff, some gurus are going to slip in an offer and those with integrity, maturity, and patience are going to simply answer as best they can without condescending remarks or relating to laziness. As I contributed, polite instruction is the way to go. Matter of fact that polite one on one instruction will have ten times the impact that this thread ever will, IMO.
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        • Profile picture of the author Sojourn
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          "What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy."

          "My feeling is that in order to have your own business you need to be a "self starter" and people who are "self starters" know how to search and find these answers themselves."

          "What I don't enjoy is spoon feeding newbies who are too lazy to do any of their own due diligence."
          Oh, this thread kept me highly entertained while I was on the road the past few days. While I wish he was a troll (as those usually go away), he does not seem to be leaving.

          What I found particularly amusing (and hysterically ironic) was tarheels on the Simple Machines forum asking for help a few months ago (apparently without using the search button as the information appeared to be readily available in a number of places):

          Oops

          And on this SEO forum where he tells another user who chewed out a newbie for asking a question and expecting to be "spoon fed" the information "You always seem cranky."

          How Good Ad Planner works?? - SEO Chat

          Michael - YOU always seem cranky (and too stubborn for your own good).

          Normally, I'd employ another tactic - reasoning, discussion to the point of understanding, highlighting opportunities to learn - but those have been tried by some of the best and failed to make a dent.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post

            Oh, this thread kept me highly entertained while I was on the road the past few days. While I wish he was a troll (as those usually go away), he does not seem to be leaving.

            What I found particularly amusing (and hysterically ironic) was tarheels on the Simple Machines forum asking for help a few months ago (apparently without using the search button as the information appeared to be readily available in a number of places):

            Oops

            And on this SEO forum where he tells another user who chewed out a newbie for asking a question and expecting to be "spoon fed" the information "You always seem cranky."

            How Good Ad Planner works?? - SEO Chat

            Michael - YOU always seem cranky (and too stubborn for your own good).

            Normally, I'd employ another tactic - reasoning, discussion to the point of understanding, highlighting opportunities to learn - but those have been tried by some of the best and failed to make a dent.
            Your first example highlighted a bug in the SMF forum.

            Your second example was me pointing out someone who always went off on people, asking questions or not. You'll notice I never once referenced the question, or the OP. Someone also agreed with me.

            So, what were you saying?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
      Sorry 4.86 posts per day .... okay lets tone this down a bit because i am getting worked up and i should not I am just a newbie and should know my place (sorry last one i will stop now I PROMISE)

      I am definately not trying to derail the thread infact I am just offering the Newbie reply to a very not nice thread title for newbies and to me the best threads are the one that have both sides of the story.

      I get your point I am one of those Newbies that will rather search for hours than ask a stupid question ... and we all should be like that but this is an information forum some may just need more info than others.

      I would like to thank you though as this has been one of the few threads that i have felt like i knew exactly what to say... Now to find out what a backlink is


      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Hint:

      View public profile > statistics > Post per day.
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Also, people please stop trying to derail the thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author MJ Schaefer
    I hate threads like this. No newcomer to internet marketing, especially to the Warrior Forum, should be made to feel second-rate or cower.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by MJ Schaefer View Post

      I hate threads like this. No newcomer to internet marketing, especially to the Warrior Forum, should be made to feel second-rate or cower.
      Pretty sure this was never inferred.


      Where do you people come up with all this?



      God forbid one is made to actually do their own research for once!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

        People are not getting lazier... how is that possible?

        IM turned into a fallout shelter in a trashed economy. People
        are not getting lazy, they were lazy before they got here.

        How many people go punch a clock and do as little as possible
        to get by? There are the 'have' and the 'have nots'. The haves
        go get theirs while the have nots wait for it to be handed to
        them.

        Once those people lose accountability (they have no boss to
        fire them) they lose initiative.

        This is the society for which we live and IM has nothing to
        do with anything.

        These people were slack asses before IM, during their tortured
        attempt and they will be after.
        Lol seriously?

        One is not always a newbie. No one is saying that they're lazier in post 5 than they are at post 1, so where you're coming up with that notion I'm not sure. The economy tanking has no relevancy to the opinion of newbies becoming lazier.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
      Thanks and i mean it ....

      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Nash, the link in your profile isn't working.
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  • Profile picture of the author darren16b
    I agree with most of this, but hey no one is making anyone answer the questions in the first place.
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  • Profile picture of the author PeteSmith
    Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

    *rant*

    Anyone else notice this?

    I mean, it's just getting worse here. They all want the magic push button to make money on the internet because it's oh, so easy.

    Instead of doing research for themselves, they come here to ask their questions when all it could've taken was a simple search on google for their exact thread title.

    Now, I've no issue with helping newbies out. I enjoy it. What I do have issues with are those newbies that come here to be spoon fed and ask questions before doing any research themselves, simply because they're lazy.

    I think a lot of us are to blame for this, as well. I think we're TOO quick to help a lot of the times, and this gives newbies the wrong mindset.

    IMO, we should make the newbies try to help themselves before we help them, else they're never going to get anywhere because they don't know how to find the answers to succeed in IM.
    Interesting point of view, because I always preach to people wanting to make money to ask ask ask, and copy copy copy. By that I mean, that there is no magic potion to making money online, or 'button' as you say. It's like anything in life, if you want to do something well, find out how someone that is already doing it does it, ask them, and copy them.

    When I say copy, I don't mean I'll tell them what product I'm promoting etc, I just mean that I give them a good kick in the right direction. Why wade through all the scams and rubbish on google, when they can connect with people who are doing what they want to do right here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by PeteSmith View Post

      Interesting point of view, because I always preach to people wanting to make money to ask ask ask, and copy copy copy. By that I mean, that there is no magic potion to making money online, or 'button' as you say. It's like anything in life, if you want to do something well, find out how someone that is already doing it does it, ask them, and copy them.

      When I say copy, I don't mean I'll tell them what product I'm promoting etc, I just mean that I give them a good kick in the right direction. Why wade through all the scams and rubbish on google, when they can connect with people who are doing what they want to do right here.
      If you're unable to find your answer after legitimately searching, then there is no problem with asking.

      Im strictly talking about those who refuse to do a simple search of their question in Google and check out the first result.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Oh, just realized you're the guy that wanted the "facts" of employers taking experience in replace of college education.


    LOL.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Oh, just realized you're the guy that wanted the "facts" of employers taking experience in replace of college education.


      LOL.

      Oh, I just realized you are the guy going through the forum trying to pretend your an expert on everything and anything.

      You try to pass off opinion as fact and when asked for you to back it up you disappear to a different thread. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Oh, I just realized you are the guy going through the forum trying to pretend your an expert on everything and anything.

        You try to pass off opinion as fact and when asked for you to back it up you disappear to a different thread. :rolleyes:
        Uh, you may want to go back and read that thread again. I replied to you directly.

        In fact, I'll do it here.

        Would you like me to hold your hand and show you job postings on CareerBuilder and Monster that show they'll take experience in the field in lieu of college education?

        Say the word and I'll have no problem.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

          Uh, you may want to go back and read that thread again. I replied to you directly.

          In fact, I'll do it here.

          Would you like me to hold your hand and show you job postings on CareerBuilder and Monster that show they'll take experience in the field in lieu of college education?

          Say the word and I'll have no problem.

          How many job posting make a trend?
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            How many job posting make a trend?
            There is no derivable minimum. I feel like I'm back in algebra.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

              There is no derivable minimum. I feel like I'm back in algebra.
              Why do you feel like you are back in algebra?

              Looking at a 20 job postings and stating the national trend is employers more interested in experience instead of college education is idiotic at best.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                Why do you feel like you are back in algebra?

                Looking at a 20 job postings and stating that employees would take people without college degrees is idiotic at best.
                Algebra because of derivable minimums.

                Idiotic? Lol. You can be sure there are a LOT more than 20. Having a degree doesn't separate you from the rest, anymore.

                There was a piece on this on 20/20 about a year ago, or so. Professors from Ivy schools were claiming it's almost to the point where it's not worth going to college anymore.


                *note* I didn't watch that video, but I'm pretty sure that's the episode I'm referring to.
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                • Profile picture of the author MJ Schaefer
                  From a rant about unprofitable questions by newbies to a YouTube video featuring an ABC 20/20 report on employment. Seems like a rather major derailing to me and, ironically, no less useless than those newbie questions you seem to despise.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post


                  *note* I didn't watch that video, but I'm pretty sure that's the episode I'm referring to.

                  lol You didn't watch the video but am "pretty" sure that college isn't needed anymore.

                  How can I be sure when you don't provide any facts to back up your statement.

                  I asked how many postings and you didn't answer it.

                  Next we can delve into particular markets if you want.

                  I just figured you already knew this stuff since you made it sound like fact instead of your own opinion.

                  Actually, having a degree does separate you from the rest of the people without degrees.

                  People with PHD separates themselves from the people that have Masters degrees and so on...

                  Now you are stating people are lazy more than ever because they don't use the search function.

                  Incredible facts you been throwing out there. I look forward to learning a lot from your wisdom without proof.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    lol You didn't watch the video but am "pretty" sure that college isn't needed anymore.

                    How can I be sure when you don't provide any facts to back up your statement.

                    I asked how many postings and you didn't answer it.

                    Next we can delve into particular markets if you want.

                    I just figured you already knew this stuff since you made it sound like fact instead of your own opinion.

                    Actually, having a degree does separate you from the rest of the people without degrees.

                    People with PHD separates themselves from the people that have Masters degrees and so on...
                    It is a fact that employers are willing to take experience over college education.

                    In the original thread I had stated it obviously depends on the field. Let's not play coy.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                      It is a fact that employers are willing to take experience over college education.

                      In the original thread I had stated it obviously depends on the field. Let's not play coy.

                      You are the only one playing coy.

                      I asked you questions that weren't answered.

                      You give me a video you never watched.

                      I am sure there are employers willing to hire. McDonalds being one of them.

                      How far do these experienced applicants go within their profession?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                        You are the only one playing coy.

                        I asked you questions that weren't answered.

                        You give me a video you never watched.

                        I am sure there are employers willing to hire. McDonalds being one of them.

                        How far do these experienced applicants go within their profession?
                        Well, my dad is the east coast controller of Siemens corp. No college education.

                        My mom is the SE US manager of a major health company. (not revealing the company as her info is on their corporate website)

                        What question(s) specifically did I not answer? I'll address them.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                          Well, my dad is the east coast controller of Siemens corp. No college education.

                          My mom is the SE US manager of a major health company. (not revealing the company as her info is on their corporate website)

                          What question(s) specifically did I not answer? I'll address them.
                          Well why didn't you say so.

                          Your mom and dad don't have college education so it all must be true.

                          I do wonder if they would have been even higher paid with higher positions if they had college educations.

                          Thanks for the clarification.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
                            LOL Thomas i really thought you were going to let that one go too easy

                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                            Well why didn't you say so.

                            Your mom and dad don't have college education so it all must be true.

                            I do wonder if they would have been even higher paid with higher positions if they had college educations.

                            Thanks for the clarification.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                            Well why didn't you say so.

                            Your mom and dad don't have college education so it all must be true.

                            I do wonder if they would have been even higher paid with higher positions if they had college educations.

                            Thanks for the clarification.
                            I didn't say it is all true.

                            This is my original statement:

                            Originally Posted by mgtarheels
                            Nowadays, employers will take commensurate experience in substitute for a degree. I'd recommend working in the field for 5 years and if you want to go to school, have your employer pay.

                            Your reply to the above:
                            I would be interested in knowing where you came up with your "facts".

                            Tell me what is incorrect about that statment. It's not difficult to search CB or Monster to see they're willing to take experience in lieu of a degree.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                            Well why didn't you say so.

                            Your mom and dad don't have college education so it all must be true.

                            I do wonder if they would have been even higher paid with higher positions if they had college educations.

                            Thanks for the clarification.
                            I'm still waiting for you to show me specifically which questions I did not answer.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                              I'm still waiting for you to show me specifically which questions I did not answer.
                              How many job postings make a trend?

                              What markets are employers taking experience over degrees?

                              While you are at it you could answer Roger's questions in regards to the minimum required experience of using this forum.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                How many job postings make a trend.

                                What markets are employers taking experience over degrees?

                                While you are at it you could answer Roger's questions in regards to the minimum required experience of using this forum.
                                ?How many job postings make a trend.
                                -Answered. I said there is no derivable minimum.

                                ?What markets are employers taking experience over degrees?
                                -You never asked this, but: Administrative, Political, HR, Sales, IT related, Mechanics, Hospitality, Hospitality management, etc.

                                Minimum required experience - nothing aside from a little due diligence.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

                                  ?How many job postings make a trend.
                                  -Answered. I said there is no derivable minimum.

                                  ?What markets are employers taking experience over degrees?
                                  -You never asked this, but: Administrative, Political, HR, Sales, IT related, Mechanics, Hospitality, Hospitality management, etc.

                                  Minimum required experience - nothing aside from a little due diligence.

                                  IT? I guess it would depend on what you label IT. I do know of a few network admins that went the certification route. Maybe testers...

                                  All of the programmers, team leads, project managers, database admins have had degrees that I have worked with.

                                  In fact, most of the companies I worked with only hired college grads. I was recruited out of college.

                                  I am sure there are some major talented people that didn't need it but haven't seen that as a norm with my experience working all over the world.

                                  Maybe CDark can jump in with his experience.

                                  Secretaries, wait staff, mechanics, some sales positions other jobs like that wouldn't really require much college if they had the experience.

                                  I don't think they really ever required college education.

                                  You stated people shouldn't be allowed on the forum if they didn't have minimum knowledge. Roger asked you a question about that and you didn't answer him.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                    IT? I guess it would depend on what you label IT. I do know of a few network admins that went the certification route. Maybe testers...

                                    All of the programmers, team leads, project managers, database admins have had degrees that I have worked with.

                                    In fact, most of the companies I worked with only hired college grads. I was recruited out of college.

                                    Maybe CDark can jump in with his experience in IT.

                                    Secretaries, wait staff, mechanics, some sales positions other jobs like that wouldn't really require much college if they had the experience.

                                    I don't think they really ever required college education.

                                    You stated people shouldn't be allowed on the forum if they didn't have minimum knowledge. Roger asked you a question about that and you didn't answer him.
                                    I did answer him. I answer you a little more differently because it seems I have to for you to understand that I answered your questions.

                                    When I say administrative, I'm speaking more along the lines of office managers, account execs, etc. not just an admin asst who files all day.

                                    I think the misconception you're having is that I'm saying experience > college education. I never said that. I said employers are willing to take experience in lieu of education, and you cannot argue that as it's at the bottom of most job postings (that Ive seen).
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                                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                                  Michael (Grant), I don't know what put a bug up your bum, but I have to hand it to you...

                                  You are managing to carry on two running fights in one thread while adding nothing of any value to anyone. Well done.

                                  Maybe the 'what is a backlink' example is a little screwy, but there are a lot of topics where googling will only muddy the water.

                                  Suppose you start searching for the answer to what seems like an elementary question, and you find multiple seemingly authoritative answers, all conflicting? As an old hand, you likely have developed some filters to help you sort out useful information from digital fertilizer.

                                  Many newbies have yet to develop those filters. So they come somewhere they believe they can get an authoritative answer, and they ask their question.

                                  Instead, they run into an argumentative, arrogant, condescending know-it-all who gets his nose out of joint when people don't agree with him.

                                  It's simple, really. If the question is somehow 'beneath you', hit the back button and go on your merry way. No harm, no foul.

                                  Of course, that won't get you near as many of those...what did you call them, again?...oh yeah, backlinks as ranting and starting a running fight.

                                  Like I said, well done... :rolleyes:
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                                    Michael (Grant), I don't know what put a bug up your bum, but I have to hand it to you...

                                    You are managing to carry on two running fights in one thread while adding nothing of any value to anyone. Well done.

                                    Maybe the 'what is a backlink' example is a little screwy, but there are a lot of topics where googling will only muddy the water.

                                    Suppose you start searching for the answer to what seems like an elementary question, and you find multiple seemingly authoritative answers, all conflicting? As an old hand, you likely have developed some filters to help you sort out useful information from digital fertilizer.

                                    Many newbies have yet to develop those filters. So they come somewhere they believe they can get an authoritative answer, and they ask their question.

                                    Instead, they run into an argumentative, arrogant, condescending know-it-all who gets his nose out of joint when people don't agree with him.

                                    It's simple, really. If the question is somehow 'beneath you', hit the back button and go on your merry way. No harm, no foul.

                                    Of course, that won't get you near as many of those...what did you call them, again?...oh yeah, backlinks as ranting and starting a running fight.

                                    Like I said, well done... :rolleyes:
                                    I can tell you didn't read the entire thread. If you did, you have selective memory.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
                                    Okay, I just have to throw in my .02 worth. In my own defense, I didn't just become lazy. I've spent many, many years perfecting it. I just about have it down to a science.

                                    It's great that a number of old hands on this thread show their understanding of what it means to be a newbie. To be inundated day after day with "Secrets the Gurus Don't Want You to Know"; "Shocking Secret System that Will Make You Umpty Ump Thousand Dollars a Day". Easy Buttons? To look at the emails we are bombarded with daily, almost hourly, each promising a shiny new Easy Button, it's no wonder that the newcomer is lost and bewildered. He needs a little guidance, and thanks to the reputation of the Warrior Forum, this is where he comes to get some.

                                    Sometimes he gets some really great guidance, and at some point will no longer be a newbie but the pro to whom other newcomers look for guidance. Unfortunately, all too often he is faced with rude, caustic comments that make him feel small and stupid. And we wonder why that person disappears from the forum and becomes one of the embittered masses, convinced that IM is a massive fraud.

                                    I personally like doing my own research, partly on Google, partly by reading books, and partly by lurking on this forum But that's me. Some people are terrified at the thought, because to them it appears as a great abyss, filled with demons. You helpful Warriors are the salvation of this terrified newbie, and my hat is off to you. To those others, the sneering know-it-alls, a great big Bronx cheer to you.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author yves
                                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                                    Maybe the 'what is a backlink' example is a little screwy, but there are a lot of topics where googling will only muddy the water.

                                    Suppose you start searching for the answer to what seems like an elementary question, and you find multiple seemingly authoritative answers, all conflicting? As an old hand, you likely have developed some filters to help you sort out useful information from digital fertilizer.

                                    Many newbies have yet to develop those filters. So they come somewhere they believe they can get an authoritative answer, and they ask their question.

                                    . .
                                    I think that answers the due dilligence thing

                                    Yves
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
                                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                                    Michael (Grant), I don't know what put a bug up your bum, but I have to hand it to you...

                                    You are managing to carry on two running fights in one thread while adding nothing of any value to anyone. Well done.
                                    LOL - Coffee in the keyboard yet again!

                                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                                    Maybe the 'what is a backlink' example is a little screwy, but there are a lot of topics where googling will only muddy the water.

                                    Suppose you start searching for the answer to what seems like an elementary question, and you find multiple seemingly authoritative answers, all conflicting? As an old hand, you likely have developed some filters to help you sort out useful information from digital fertilizer.

                                    Many newbies have yet to develop those filters. So they come somewhere they believe they can get an authoritative answer, and they ask their question.
                                    Fair point!

                                    Will
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    Anyone that cannot understand the value of helping a newbie, is a newbie LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author darren16b
    In internet marketing as in life if you don't ask questions you don't learn. It just so happens that today's internet marketing is a whole hell of a lot different than it was even just 4 years ago. Now there is ten times as much to learn, and ten times as many people waiting to take advantage of the newbie.

    May I suggest that if you are a newbie and have a question, your best bet is to Google it first or check out Youtube. These 2 resources will answer 95% of your questions. And if all else fails ask these fellow Warriors I'm sure they'd be happy to help.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by darren16b View Post

      In internet marketing as in life if you don't ask questions you don't learn. It just so happens that today's internet marketing is a whole hell of a lot different than it was even just 4 years ago. Now there is ten times as much to learn, and ten times as many people waiting to take advantage of the newbie.

      May I suggest that if you are a newbie and have a question, your best bet is to Google it first or check out Youtube. These 2 resources will answer 95% of your questions. And if all else fails ask these fellow Warriors I'm sure they'd be happy to help.
      Exactly the point of this thread. *beer*
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi mgtarheels,

        My intention is not to pile on - I've read through the thread. But this one piqued my curiosity - I'm genuinely interested in your answers -

        But if anyone who has to ask what a backlink is, should not be in the forum. They should either learn the absolute minimum basics or have their VAs, SEOers, etc. do the work.
        On what basis?

        Have you decided this yourself, or have you read this (or seen it implied) somewhere?

        Where should they learn these basics instead?

        If the answer to the above is 'Google', and the resource they find on Google is this forum, what do they do if the thread they find doesn't solve their query - do they have to ask a question whilst shielding the fact that they are trying to learn what a backlink actually is?

        If so, why?

        My opinion - it's one thing to politely remind people that they should try and learn basics for themselves before asking here and to search for answers themselves first - but you seem to be going into different territory by dictating who should or should not be in the forum.

        As asked above, if you can explain 'on what basis' you are making this statement, that would help.

        Again - I'm not interested in a slanging match, but if I am encouraging others to think a little more about what they are saying, then that's probably a good thing.

        .............

        This thread title - Newbies getting lazier and lazier

        {Possible (better? Less provocative?) alternatives} -

        Are newbies getting lazier?

        In general, it seems newbies are getting lazier?

        People seem to be getting lazier - especially newbies

        Are the 'push button solution' salesletters encouraging (or causing) laziness

        Are we (or sellers) making people/newbies lazy?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi mgtarheels,

          My intention is not to pile on - I've read through the thread. But this one piqued my curiosity - I'm genuinely interested in your answers -



          On what basis?

          Have you decided this yourself, or have you read this (or seen it implied) somewhere?

          Where should they learn these basics instead?

          If the answer to the above is 'Google', and the resource they find on Google is this forum, what do they do if the thread they find doesn't solve their query - do they have to ask a question whilst shielding the fact that they are trying to learn what a backlink actually is?

          If so, why?

          My opinion - it's one thing to politely remind people that they should try and learn basics for themselves before asking here and to search for answers themselves first - but you seem to be going into different territory by dictating who should or should not be in the forum.

          As asked above, if you can explain 'on what basis' you are making this statement, that would help.

          Again - I'm not interested in a slanging match, but if I am encouraging others to think a little more about what they are saying, then that's probably a good thing.

          Thread title - Newbies getting lazier and lazier

          Possible (better? Less provocative?) alternatives -

          Are newbies getting lazier?

          In general, it seems newbies are getting lazier

          People seem to be getting lazier - especially newbies

          Are the 'push button solution' salesletters encouraging (or causing) laziness

          Are we making people/newbies lazy?
          Since we're using the backlink example, the first result is an exact definition. Doesn't get much easier than that for someone. If what they search isn't found, try wording it differently. If it is still unfound and you want to ask here, do a search first. If you still don't find it, then post the question. No issue with that, at all.

          One thing to remember, though, is that this thread is my opinion. I am no mod, or anyone with power in this forum.

          And about the thread title, it serves the purpose of this thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

            Since we're using the backlink example, the first result is an exact definition. Doesn't get much easier than that for someone. If what they search isn't found, try wording it differently. If it is still unfound and you want to ask here, do a search first. If you still don't find it, then post the question. No issue with that, at all.

            One thing to remember, though, is that this thread is my opinion. I am no mod, or anyone with power in this forum.

            And about the thread title, it serves the purpose of this thread.

            You still didn't answer his questions.

            Seems like a trend? lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    Here is an interesting question.
    How many idiotic posts does it take to be viewed as a troll.

    The newbies you are talking about are at least concentrating on improving their knowledge, and that is what this forum is for. Not to rant and argue about unrelated garbage, but to learn and help each other move forward.
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    • Profile picture of the author darren16b
      Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

      Here is an interesting question.
      How many idiotic posts does it take to be viewed as a troll.

      The newbies you are talking about are at least concentrating on improving their knowledge, and that is what this forum is for. Not to rant and argue about unrelated garbage, but to learn and help each other move forward.
      Touché and thank you
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

      Here is an interesting question.
      How many idiotic posts does it take to be viewed as a troll.

      The newbies you are talking about are at least concentrating on improving their knowledge, and that is what this forum is for. Not to rant and argue about unrelated garbage, but to learn and help each other move forward.
      Not sure, but I'm seeing a bit of pot calling the kettle black.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

      Here is an interesting question.
      How many idiotic posts does it take to be viewed as a troll.

      The newbies you are talking about are at least concentrating on improving their knowledge, and that is what this forum is for. Not to rant and argue about unrelated garbage, but to learn and help each other move forward.
      This many
      http://www.warriorforum.com/search.php?searchid=4643171

      Just look at all the rude responses. Enormous chip on shoulder or having a really bad day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    So here is a great solution ...

    Example:

    Q: How do I write an article?

    A: Let me google that for you <--- Click Here!

    I love it!

    Will
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    • Profile picture of the author Bronwyn and Keith
      Contrary view.

      Newbies are "SOLD" the lazy pill by Gurus.

      It's the marketing that has created the "thought pattern" that you can stick a zero page website up and be drinking cocktails on the beach 5 minutes later and be the envy of your family and friends.

      Change the marketing - change the perception.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by bronke13 View Post

        Contrary view.

        Newbies are "SOLD" the lazy pill by Gurus.

        It's the marketing that has created the "thought pattern" that you can stick a zero page website up and be drinking cocktails on the beach 5 minutes later and be the envy of your family and friends.

        Change the marketing - change the perception.

        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith
        I agree with this, as well. You're going a little deeper into it than I, but I absolutely agree with this.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by bronke13 View Post

        Contrary view.

        Newbies are "SOLD" the lazy pill by Gurus.

        It's the marketing that has created the "thought pattern" that you can stick a zero page website up and be drinking cocktails on the beach 5 minutes later and be the envy of your family and friends.

        Change the marketing - change the perception.

        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith

        Newbies are told what they want to hear. If they didn't want a "lazy pill" they wouldn't be sold one.

        Also, don't get easy mixed up with lazy. Making money online is easy if you know what you are doing and put the work into it.
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      • Profile picture of the author yves
        Originally Posted by bronke13 View Post

        Contrary view.

        Newbies are "SOLD" the lazy pill by Gurus.

        It's the marketing that has created the "thought pattern" that you can stick a zero page website up and be drinking cocktails on the beach 5 minutes later and be the envy of your family and friends.

        Change the marketing - change the perception.

        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith
        Hi,

        Your view is not contrary, I and others have said this before and I vehemently stand by it. I totally agree, newbies would not think you could make money online easily if it wasn't sold that way to them.

        P.S I know this is off the topic but is somewhat related.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Will Edwards View Post

      So here is a great solution ...

      Example:

      Q: How do I write an article?

      A: Let me google that for you <--- Click Here!

      I love it!

      Will
      I used to do that myself, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    One of my silly little WF goals is to have started a 3 page thread ... if this is thread is am example how i need to do it then i dont want that goal any more
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  • Profile picture of the author darren16b
    I can't belive the mileage that this is getting!
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
    I have a hard time understanding what the point is to this thread when the original poster complains about the type of people that buys our products and clicks our links. At least for most of the people in the internet marketing niche.

    I've built gambling affiliate websites for almost a decade. This is like me complaining because people come to my forum and ask simple questions about poker..

    Just imho.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

      I have a hard time understanding what the point is to this thread when the original poster complains about the type of people that buys our products and clicks our links. At least for most of the people in the internet marketing niche.

      I've built gambling affiliate websites for almost a decade. This is like me complaining because people come to my forum and ask simple questions about poker..

      Just imho.
      The original point of this was more geared towards the absolute basics:

      -Whats a backlink
      -How do i make an authority site
      -I was on page 2, now Im at page 50! WHY?!

      etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
        I guess iam being a real Newbie here but none of those questions are that Basic if you understood and were able to implement each of the answers to just those three questions perfectly you would be making quite a bit of cash online ... i dont know the answers to all those questions 100% fully


        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        The original point of this was more geared towards the absolute basics:

        -Whats a backlink
        -How do i make an authority site
        -I was on page 2, now Im at page 50! WHY?!

        etc.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
          Originally Posted by nashelver View Post

          I guess iam being a real Newbie here but none of those questions are that Basic if you understood and were able to implement each of the answers to just those three questions perfectly you would be making quite a bit of cash online ... i dont know the answers to all those questions 100% fully
          Guess that's why this thread is my opinion and I'm the OP and you're not?
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi mgtarheels,

            Gah, your replies are too long.
            Too long for what?

            It doesn't contradict what I said. If you don't know what a backlink is, you shouldn't be on this forum. Plain and simple.
            That's your opinion, one that is shared by hardly anyone here I would guess. I would wager that the majority would agree that it is in fact you that should not be here, as your posts suggest that you have zero interest in increasing the worth of this community.

            Personally, I'd swap 100 of your type for 1 newbie who doesn't understand backlinks, but is open to learning.

            Again, I'm the black sheep, apparently. The people on this forum are not my targeted audience, thus I do not treat them as such.
            They're not my target audience either, but I treat people the same whether they're my target audience or not. If you don't see the value in this approach, then you're not fit to call yourself a professional marketer, you're much more like a newbie - in your words, one who 'shouldn't be here.'
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

              Hi mgtarheels,



              Too long for what?
              Roger, don't you see the irony here. He is complaining about people being too lazy but now complains your well thought out posts are too long.

              I am asking Allen to give you a Twitter like account that keep your post length down. That way people won't have to deal with the long replies. haha
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    I get half a dozen emails a day from people who have a question: Can you help me with my WSO ad? Can you review my squeeze page? Can you show me an example of...? Can you explain how to...?

    And sure, they could find this online--but I am honored that they value my opinion. And, down the road who knows--one of these people may someday turn out to be my biggest JV partner or something like that.

    The first dollar someone makes online is a big deal, a very big deal. They will always remember that day. That's why I almost always try to answer questions and help people out.

    Mgtarheels, you mentioned something about Algebra several times. So you've got an undergraduate degree in Mathematics or something? So you're an expert in all things related to math?

    Let me ask you a simple question. Let's look at a very simple algebra equation--about as simple as you can get. y = x*2 (y equals x squared).

    Now, what if I asked you to give me an equation for a curve going through the point (0,1) whose normal at any point is always one unit from the y = x*2 line. You want a curve within the original y = x*2 curve that, when you find the derivative of the second curve at any point, and construct a normal from that point to the original curve, the distance of that normal line connecting the curves is always one unit.

    I'm not looking for the line y = x*2 + 1, that doesn't satisfy what I'm asking at all. Re-read my question. You won't find the problem or solution in any text, it's a "think through" problem.

    Now, you've just gone from Algebra expert to mathematics newbie in 30 seconds. You could find the solution to my problem by Googling up stuff for the next 40 years, and still not get it right--or, you could ask for help.

    And anyone with the knowledge to help you would think you a dumb *#$ for asking.

    When you get to the point where you've invested thousands of hours to IM marketing, invested tens-of-thousands of dollars into your business, and made millions as a result of your efforts--then talk to me about "newbies" and "experts". Until then, there is no real distinction.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

      I get half a dozen emails a day from people who have a question: Can you help me with my WSO ad? Can you review my squeeze page? Can you show me an example of...? Can you explain how to...?

      And sure, they could find this online--but I am honored that they value my opinion. And, down the road who knows--one of these people may someday turn out to be my biggest JV partner or something like that.

      The first dollar someone makes online is a big deal, a very big deal. They will always remember that day. That's why I almost always try to answer questions and help people out.

      Mgtarheels, you mentioned something about Algebra several times. So you've got an undergraduate degree in Mathematics or something? So you're an expert in all things related to math?

      Let me ask you a simple question. Let's look at a very simple algebra equation--about as simple as you can get. y = x*2 (y equals x squared).

      Now, what if I asked you to give me an equation for a curve going through the point (0,1) whose normal at any point is always one unit from the y = x*2 line. You want a curve within the original y = x*2 curve that, when you find the derivative of the second curve at any point, and construct a normal from that point to the original curve, the distance of that normal line connecting the curves is always one unit.

      I'm not looking for the line y = x*2 + 1, that doesn't satisfy what I'm asking at all. Re-read my question. You won't find the problem or solution in any text, it's a "think through" problem.

      Now, you've just gone from Algebra expert to mathematics newbie in 30 seconds. You could find the solution to my problem by Googling up stuff for the next 40 years, and still not get it right--or, you could ask for help.

      And anyone with the knowledge to help you would think you a dumb *#$ for asking.

      When you get to the point where you've invested thousands of hours to IM marketing, invested tens-of-thousands of dollars into your business, and made millions as a result of your efforts--then talk to me about "newbies" and "experts". Until then, there is no real distinction.
      As stated many times in this thread, I have no problem with people asking questions. My problem lies with those who do not do their due diligence before asking.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Alright, I've to head out to dinner. I'll reply to everyone that replies after I leave when I get back. Have a good one.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi mgtarheels,

      You posted this in the other thread (that is now locked) post#25.

      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      I just feel to not take suggestions is shooting yourself in the foot.
      How's your foot?
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      • Profile picture of the author yves
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post




        How's your foot?
        I'm sure it's smarting a little
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        Problem with this thread could have been saved by avoiding generalizations in the first place:

        Lazy Noobs = Obnoxious and annoying
        Non-Lazy Noobs = Worth a helping hand

        Right?
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  • Profile picture of the author CianMcCarthy
    Banned
    Only the newbies that came through the ''make money online fast'' ''make money quick'' type of searches are the ones that are lazy (in general). Granted that's a lot :-)

    Only one in every hundred will think of changing their mentality (which is a high estimate)
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    • Profile picture of the author yves
      Originally Posted by CianMcCarthy View Post

      Only the newbies that came through the ''make money online fast'' ''make money quick'' type of searches are the ones that are lazy (in general). Granted that's a lot :-)

      Only one in every hundred will think of changing their mentality (which is a high estimate)
      Not neccessarily lazy, naive perhaps
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    I was about to write that it looks like Thomas B. has met his match, but upon further consideration, I thought that would be an insult to him. A good troll is worth his weight in lulz, like Cdarklock, you could learn quite a bit from these two.

    Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by skyfox7 View Post

      I was about to write that it looks like Thomas B. has met his match, but upon further consideration, I thought that would be an insult to him. A good troll is worth his weight in lulz, like Cdarklock, you could learn quite a bit from these two.

      Chris
      No, I wouldn't take it as an insult.

      I don't necessarily think he is a troll. Sometimes we can have heated debates that may make us look like we are angry and mad. I can't say anything about others but I seldom get angry over this type of stuff.

      If I do get angry then it isn't because of the debate but something outside the forum.

      I was seriously interested in the employment stuff which is why I asked in the other thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by skyfox7 View Post

      A good troll is worth his weight in lulz, like Cdarklock
      I'd protest being called a troll, but... well... sometimes that's not entirely inaccurate.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Formby
    Makes me laugh threads like this..

    jeez i hate helping noobies...but i sell my stuff to them instead lol

    I mean do you remember when you first joied this forum ? and how over whelming it is to start with the amount of information available. As well as the different methods there are to make money online.

    These guys arent so much lazy its informaiton over load and sometimes they just need clear answers to clear problems not a thread thats just full of text with half of the answer in it.

    For the sake of 2 secs and helping someone on there way, isnt that more rewarding than 2 secs moaning about them.

    Remember noobies buy the wso's your coaching services , membership services and more. Without noobies alot of peple couldnt even call themselves imers.

    Mikey
    (I meant no disrespect in this post)
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  • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
    Perhaps the kind of people who are satisfied with the 'What is a backlink?' definition that heads the Google query don't often make it as far as this place, because they sink without trace after taking everything else at face value too.

    Perhaps the kind of people who show up here wanting to know what a backlink is because they'd rather ask their question in an environment where the answer can be challenged if necessary by others who know what they're talking about are the kind of people with lively and enquiring minds that we'd actually want to encourage on here.

    Definitely a big generalization, but no worse than labelling them all as lazy and just as likely.
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    • Profile picture of the author Barry Patterson
      Originally Posted by Diana Lane View Post

      Perhaps the kind of people who are satisfied with the 'What is a backlink?' definition that heads the Google query don't often make it as far as this place, because they sink without trace after taking everything else at face value too.

      Perhaps the kind of people who show up here wanting to know what a backlink is because they'd rather ask their question in an environment where the answer can be challenged if necessary by others who know what they're talking about are the kind of people with lively and enquiring minds that we'd actually want to encourage on here.

      Definitely a big generalization, but no worse than labelling them all as lazy and just as likely.
      I appreciated your comments as my time with this what I hope becomes my profession is only 18 months. One thing that was important at the begining was to spend lots of time at the job. What do you think of an average of 60 hours a week (documented) for those 18 months? Please accept the fact that for some of us it does take time, money and questions to accomplish what others find so easy. At least that is what it seems.
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      • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
        Originally Posted by Barry Patterson View Post

        I appreciated your comments as my time with this what I hope becomes my profession is only 18 months. One thing that was important at the begining was to spend lots of time at the job. What do you think of an average of 60 hours a week (documented) for those 18 months? Please accept the fact that for some of us it does take time, money and questions to accomplish what others find so easy. At least that is what it seems.
        I think everyone's road is going to be a different one, and that it's not the amount of time you spend on it that matters as much as what you learn on the journey. I don't think anyone finds this easy from the outset (and although I've grumbled a bit at the challenges sometimes I'd probably have been bored out of my brains without them and would not have lasted five minutes), but even those people who find the road relatively smooth have to be ready to navigate around any pot-holes that might suddenly appear.

        For those who are finding the journey tough, it's generally been my experience in pretty much everything that it's only possible to stand in a shadow because the sunshine is somewhere close by.

        Deep. Clearly a symptom of a body that's deficient in the 'beer' vitamin
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Diana,

          For those who are finding the journey tough, it's generally been my experience in pretty much everything that it's only possible to stand in a shadow because the sunshine is somewhere close by.
          What if the sunshine's right around the other side of the earth but someone stands in front of the table lamp?

          Hi Bruce,

          Anyone ever heard of Joe Karbo's "The Lazy Man's Way To Riches"? It was published in 1973 and sold millions.

          Nothing's changed.
          ...except you had to drive to the shops to buy it/wait for postie to deliver it. But I do get your point.
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          • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Diana,

            What if the sunshine's right around the other side of the earth but someone stands in front of the table lamp?
            Then it's to be hoped that others realise that you could well be at a disadvantage in being born on the wrong side of the ball, rather than (lazily!) making the assumption that you're just lazy and are willing to give you a little help now and again in acquiring the resources necessary to get Fat Arse to move out of the way and give you a fairer share of the light.

            Your smiley is very green. Clearly a symptom of a body that has had an excess of vitimin beer
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  • Profile picture of the author kursat
    I guess, if all the newbies had all the answers, this forum and many other forums will not be as popular as it is.

    Thats my take on it. I am sure if we had the statistics behind how most of the WSO are created, it is very much linked to those questions which apparently annoy some senior members here.

    Well, I am sure nobody is forced to answer anything, you can simply ignore any questions listed...
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by kursat View Post

      I guess, if all the newbies had all the answers, this forum and many other forums will not be as popular as it is.

      Thats my take on it. I am sure if we had the statistics behind how most of the WSO are created, it is very much linked to those questions which apparently annoy some senior members here.

      Well, I am sure nobody is forced to answer anything, you can simply annoy any questions listed...
      Please don't take this thread as the norm for this forum. It is not. There are many helpful senior members ... but hey, please don't call us seniors.
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      • Profile picture of the author kursat
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Please don't take this thread as the norm for this forum. It is not. There are many helpful senior members ... but hey, please don't call us seniors.
        No, I did not mean all seniors I think you guys are fantastic, although I am not a newbie, I read some of the replies to the questions and really admire the time people put in writing their answers.

        So, overall. I think we have a nice community here and I am sure people will have more patience with some of the questions people are asking.

        Afterall, we are all learning from eachother, thats the name of the game.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Anyone ever heard of Joe Karbo's "The Lazy Man's Way To Riches"? It was published in 1973 and sold millions.

    Or Jeff Paul's "How You Can Make $4,000 A Day, Sitting At Your Kitchen Table, In Your Underwear!"? It was published in the 1990s.

    Nothing's changed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    mgtarheel

    I must admit, I'm really puzzled why you find it so beneficial to keep tweaking the noses of those who reply in this thread. I have gone back and read your responses and in almost all cases you have been impolite to being outright insulting.

    I guess though being a TarHeel fan explains it all. And yes I'm kidding.

    Ken Leatherman

    The Old Geezer

    P.S. Dosen't mind being called a "Senior".
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    • Profile picture of the author inter123
      As a newbie, I ask all manner of questions. Tend to find that the easy of questions which can be googled tend to get a bigger response.

      As for questions where info is limited, the response is sometimes next to zero.

      So what if newbies are getting lazier and lazier? All I care is that the answer to the question is found by whatever means, onwards and upwards, progress, etc etc. I suppose other people have the same intentions.
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post
    Okay, not to sound too mercenary here, but...

    If you see five newbies ask the same question on the same day, it's time for a $7 WSO.
    And that's where I became an official CDarlock groupie. Is there a fan club or something I can join?
    LOL! He should make a WSO about how to make WSO's about newbie questions!
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  • Profile picture of the author thehobbster
    I love it when people with a sense of entitlement get online and start stamping their foot and pitching a hissy fit in a forum... The rest of us weren't fortunate enough to be totally spoiled. The trolls who constantly post "use the search function" crack me up, too.

    Try to remember that this, in fact, a DISCUSSION FORUM, with the operative word being discussion. That means without discussion, there would be no forum. If everyone just searched (because really, what hasn't already been said here?) then the entire site would go stagnant and dead.

    Newbies have every right to discuss on a discussion forum. You aren't forced to open their threads. If I want to ask a question I know the answer to just to generate discussion, then by all means I have the right to do that on a discussion forum.

    By the way, I'd like to remind both parties that there is an ignore function, where newbies can ignore the trolls and trolls can ignore the newbies. Talk about a magic button!
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh MacDonald
    Lets look at the statistics and make some predictions:

    2007- i have monyy i will buy ur ebook
    2008- i hav XXXX mony, how should I invest it?
    2009- how do i make money online?
    2010- tell me how to make money
    2011- help me make money now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    2012- GIVE ME MONEY!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author thewealthywiseman
    Lazy, hmmm -- maybe. I think it is often a case of noobs being overwhelmed by the sheer volume of posts and not knowing where to start. I must admit -- I do get a bit annoyed at a person asking what "SEM" is for example. Can you spell google?!?
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  • Profile picture of the author SmallFry
    Wow.So if someone doesn't already know what a backlink is, they don't belong here?!Says who?You?I'm extremely thankful that you're not the owner of this forum, because in that case, I would not have paid to be part of it.Who are *you* to decide who is worthy of being here and who is not?Not to mention, I find that logic extremely flawed.

    Fortunately for my brother, who went to school to be an aviation weather observer, they didn't turn him away until he found out for himself what the six clouds are that are most dangerous to pilots.They taught him, because he was there to learn it.

    That's how I see this forum (with the exception of you, rude sir), I see it as a place to *learn* about IM.Fortunately for me, everyone here that I've talked with has been nothing but kind and extremely helpful.I suppose everywhere you go has that bad apple...

    P.S. I apologize in advance for any typos.I'm tired and on my iPhone.
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  • Profile picture of the author jeffmullins
    Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

    *rant*

    Anyone else notice this?

    I mean, it's just getting worse here. They all want the magic push button to make money on the internet because it's oh, so easy.
    This is true but who's to blame? Take a look at the WSO offers. Just about every offer guarantees you'll make hundreds a day in no time with little work. And these guys offering these "push button" courses aren't newbies but experienced marketers who know better.
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  • Profile picture of the author iddigger
    Anyone know how I can find google ? I can't find the push buttons
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  • Profile picture of the author txconx
    It isn't just IM. I've seen it for 20 years in the other industry I've been in. I run a forum and people literally get angry because we encourage members not to just give answers, but to guide people to the answer. Why can't you just tell me the answer? Gee, you're mean. What a bunch of old %$#@!. All because we don't just spoonfeed them the answer. And, conversely, I have veterans who won't participate in the Q&A forums because they'd rather just give the answer! You have lazy students - and lazy teachers. It goes both ways.

    In my experience, people don't value what they get for free, whether they pay for it with money or with sweat and time. The people who take up the most time asking questions are more often than not the ones who will, after picking everyone's brain for 3 months, decide it's "too hard" and go find something they think will be easier. The ones who are willing to take suggestions on how to dig for their answer or how to stretch a little bit harder to figure it out for themselves (with a little guidance) are the ones that are going to last.

    Just my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author reynoldscorb
    It's no wonder newbies come in looking for a magic button, just look around and see what all the "gurus" are saying.

    "My system for making $20,000 a month at the push of a button!"

    ...

    There's so much misleading information out there that this is what Internet Marketing means to people who don't have experience with it.

    Can we really blame newbies who come looking for the magic button with all the garbage out there?
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    • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
      For what it's worth, information that "everybody knows" is not so easy to find. Quite recently, I was searching for something that should be simple to find. Google didn't help. This forum (using the search function) didn't help. A guru with solid credentials couldn't find the answer either, though he did give me a tip that allowed me to eventually find the answer.

      As someone else said, this is a discussion forum. If a person doesn't want to discuss any topic other than what he or she deems important, a topic that is important to him on his throne, perhaps he or she should consider joining another forum, one that meets his or her high standards.

      Thought to be fair, I've never observed any female forum member taking any attitude other than a willingness to share and help. Which is why I pay close attention when a female warrior posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
    We've got a great big supply-and-demand catch-22 in the IM market and it's part of the reason "newbies are lazy".

    Newbies are all looking for magic push-button riches?

    Of course they are! That's what they were promised! That's why they got into all this. And in fact, they're still being promised magic buttons left and right. Seems like everyone's making five figures a month on clickbank after only X weeks!

    At the same time, magic buttons are where the greatest demand is. People want magic buttons. So, if you're trying to sell a down-to-earth, rather complex, long-term online business strategy, then you probably won't get much attention among all the "$X in only X Days" screamers.

    So, many marketers package their stuff as magic buttons, just to get more attention and more sales, in turn creating more newbies who expect to find magic buttons...

    It's completely silly, at times. I just recently read a report that I'm going to call "How I made $X in a week using XYZ marketing" (don't want to out the product...). I was interested, since XYZ marketing is something I do and want to learn more about. The title made it seem like there must have been a particular technique or strategy that the author pursued to achieve his goal.

    Turns out, the guide was simply about the very basics of XYZ marketing. No mention of what kind of steps were taken to achieve the number in the title.

    But you can't go and call a report "XYZ Marketing Basics", can you? Who would want that?

    That's why:

    "Total Video Marketing Annihilation!!" -> How to set up YouTube account and upload video.

    "Blogging Cash Empire!" -> How to set up hosting (including Hostgator affiliate-link!) and install WordPress

    "Ultimate CPA Profit Crusher!" -> How to get accepted into networks and make basic landing pages for CPA offers.




    *Apologies if any of the above happen to be actual product names...
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      But you can't go and call a report "XYZ Marketing Basics", can you? Who would want that?
      Zombie Blogging could have been called "AdSense Blog Basics."

      But you're right, nobody would want that.

      The thing is, I manage to distinctively brand and promote my products without ever resorting to creative accounting or income hyperbole.

      People don't want a boring product, no. But there are better ways to do it than waving money that isn't really there.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Zombie Blogging could have been called "AdSense Blog Basics."

        But you're right, nobody would want that.

        The thing is, I manage to distinctively brand and promote my products without ever resorting to creative accounting or income hyperbole.

        People don't want a boring product, no. But there are better ways to do it than waving money that isn't really there.
        That's an excellent example.

        The whole approach you used for Zombie Blogging makes the product really interesting and makes it stand out from the crowd, to boot.

        Seems like not many marketers have the ability to sell something without putting income claims front and center, unfortunately.
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    Newbies are always lazy, thats why 90% of them disappear once they realise that to succeed they are going to have to learn stuff and pay money - something that the "internet dream" myth tells them they should not have to do.

    Good riddance, its tough for a reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author fprint
    I find some of you guys very cynical. I've read through all of these posts and apart from some I just found most of the answers very arrogant. Newbies have to start somewhere and given how hard online marketing is in the first place and given how much of our time it takes up, I don't think answering a question for some else is such a big deal. If it bothers you so much, don't do it.

    Perhaps you should remember where you started from and where you got your help from in the first place. Oh, no maybe you just knew it.

    Yes I am being smart because you guys are just wingers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    Well to all those who dont know what a back link is by now; the OP certainly does this thread has a weird genius about it actually
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Phillips
      Hi there

      I believe mister tarheels comments to be missguided and inappropriate. I for one would think twice about doing business with someone who has little respect for others and one who has such a mighty opinion of himself, but then again this is just my opinion.

      I have been enjoying my online activities for the past 2 years and still consider myself to be a newbie in many areas of internet marketing. So if i do not know something and would like advice i will ask and any areas i am proficient in i will help others if and when i can.

      From my point of view the comments made in the original post are a huge mistake to be open about, but i am also glad you did. It's nice to know how you stand with other people.

      I believe you get more from life by helping others as in the end your help, graciousness, tolerance of others and general decency will be rewarded tenfold. And more importantly it makes you feel good to help others which is what a forum is supposed to be about isn't it?

      My best regards go out to you all

      Sincerely

      Kevin
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

        We keep typing away like it matters, trying to prove a
        point almost all of us are in unison with.
        Actually, this thread has led me to establish a rapport with several Warriors behind the scenes, and at this very moment I have a measurable impact on my bottom line from it.

        Everything is an opportunity.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post


          P.S. Doesn't mind being called a "Senior".
          It sure beats being called the "dearly departed", for sure...

          Originally Posted by Kevin Phillips View Post


          I believe you get more from life by helping others as in the end your help, graciousness, tolerance of others and general decency will be rewarded tenfold. And more importantly it makes you feel good to help others which is what a forum is supposed to be about isn't it?

          My best regards go out to you all

          Sincerely

          Kevin
          Kevin, I once had a group job interview. The prospective employer brought in a half dozen interviewees and put us through our paces with different department heads, etc.

          Then we all went to lunch with the CEO. Most thought it was just a meet-and-greet. Turned out, it was the final exam.

          The CEO wanted to compare how we all acted with him (someone in a superior position), each other (peers) and the restaurant staff (someone in an 'inferior' position). What we didn't know at the time was that the CEO used this test with every group, and tipped the staff at the restaurant to make tiny mistakes with each of us (wrong side dish, incorrect doneness, missing tableware, forgotten refills, etc.).

          The test was how we reacted to the errors. A couple puffed out their chests and berated the poor waitress, demanding the error be fixed immediately and treating her like dirt. A couple simply accepted the error without comment. The last two politely brought the problem to the woman's attention and asked for it to be corrected, then thanked her for doing so.

          Two of us were hired. We were later told that, although the entire group was relatively equal in ability and experience, the fact that we treated a waitress we realistically would never have seen again with respect told him he could trust us to do the same with staff further down the chart than we were.

          I heard a similar story from a multimillionaire I met on a cruise ship. Maybe there is something to the idea...
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  • Profile picture of the author Laceylinks
    Hi Michael,

    I am a newbie and in defense of the ones asking for tips on "quick money"- I think they have seen posts/ads promising "quick money" and they think there really is such an animal if only they could find it. They haven't been doing this long enough to realize the truth of the business- it all involves work!

    BTW- this is a great forum, full of great ideas. I come here to see what some of the successful folks in IM are doing so I can do it too... so please keep the posts coming, LOL

    Mary
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

    But if anyone who has to ask what a backlink is, should not be in the forum. They should either learn the absolute minimum basics or have their VAs, SEOers, etc. do the work.
    Yep, because the one thing all newbies have is a team of VAs, SEOers, etc.

    They may even know what these terms mean.

    Perhaps tomorrow you should try getting out of the other side of your bed.
    Signature
    Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
    It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    How do I post a comment in a thread?

    Chris
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
      Originally Posted by skyfox7 View Post

      How do I post a comment in a thread?

      Chris
      Post a comment asking. I'm sure an expert will be along to assist shortly.

      I'd help, but I'm an oldbie and therefore have lost the raw energy that it took to be as lazy as a newbie. If only I could summon the strength to be that idle again...
      Signature

      Plot short fiction, long fiction, even outline non-fiction * Edit the question prompts to suit your genre * Easily export text and image files for use with your word processor or Scrivener.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jamian
    You still have choice to not answering their questions!
    Signature
    Affiliate Marketing explained for beginners >>
    www.SuperAffiliateMarketingTrick.com <<
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  • Profile picture of the author Jon Tees
    There are alot of people who just flat out don't want to work. They honestly believe that Internet marketing is some sort of alternative to a 9-5 job where they can just sit back, relax go out and do other things and watch gigantic paychecks come rolling right on in. They do as little as possible and have a feeling of entitlement like they deserve to be successful and live a better life when they do absolutely nothing to try and bring it about. I guess it comes with the territory.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    I apologize for my misunderstanding then. I guess we just see things in a different light.
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  • Profile picture of the author mr2020
    I teach kung fu.

    In 30 years, I can tell you that not only are kids and adults lazier, they are crazier.

    I could fill a training hall easily if I promised them magical healing and levitation skills, along with instant death touch...

    But getting them to practice and train... that's another story.

    Good thing the sky is falling, and that the UN is going to take over america, and that obama is going to close the net down....

    Then they will HAVE TO WORK.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by mr2020 View Post

      I teach kung fu.

      In 30 years, I can tell you that not only are kids and adults lazier, they are crazier.

      I could fill a training hall easily if I promised them magical healing and levitation skills, along with instant death touch...

      But getting them to practice and train... that's another story.

      Good thing the sky is falling, and that the UN is going to take over america, and that obama is going to close the net down....

      Then they will HAVE TO WORK.
      Yeah, good thing 2012 is 2 years away, that'll teach em.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    Michael,

    Paraphrasing comments others left in your (locked) thread, this isn't your clubhouse.

    While I don't know Allen, nor has he ever spelled this out anywhere I've seen, I suspect that the reason this is an open board (there's no test to gain entrance) is that all of the members were once new. Every single IM legend learned every single trick and technique somewhere - and many learned much of what they know right here.

    However, according to you, if they're not able to meet some arbitrary standard you've set, "newbies" don't belong?

    If the Warrior Forum were their prime learning resource, in what way would that that bad? Those who offer training products would have a market. Those who are too shy to ask could still find answers. And best of all, the forum would continue to grow and thrive as today's new members become tomorrows experts.

    Of course, you'd have to wade through tons of posts where people ask questions to which you already know the answers. I suppose this would be a much better place for you if the only posts were those that either taught you something or agreed with your point of view completely.

    The good news is that I have a solution for you. Download this.



    -Kelly Verge



    P.S. New folks, take note of the following:

    Newbies are welcome on the Warrior Forum. Ignore this guy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Alright, time for me to head out again. I'll be back to check when I'm finished with errands.
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