There Is No Such Thing As Blackhat

I think Blackhat refers to something that is either (or both), illegal or against the program TOS.

You're right, it will do you no good to do something against the TOS. But those doing blackhat bet on not getting caught.

Actually, a site might not know what you're doing in some cases and if they were to find out and disapprove of it/ban you/update TOS/etc then what you were doing at the time was black hat, in my opinion. Real black hatting is about staying 2 steps ahead of the sites, not about violating their TOS.

You're trying to be too black and white about it Steve.. no pun intended..

Have you ever known laws where lawyers find loopholes?... that's where grey hat comes in... and some black hat is only considered black hat when done in certain circumstances...

It's a very fuzzy line that is easy to cross..

Peace

Jay

p.s. As I have said before... every single time we write a keyword focused article... we darken our hats a little

Uhh, by definition if it's illegal it's black hat. Saying "it's not black hat, it's illegal" is meaningless.

I find your use of the word "illegal" confusing as you seem to imply that it is merely against Google's TOS.

Some blackhat techniques are truely criminally illegal. This includes hacking into other people's servers to send out millions of automatic link spam comments on forums, blogs, newsgroups etc.

Derek

I'm not taking my clothes off to read this thread, you pre-vert!

Steven!
>>>
These blackhat methods are AGAINST these sites TOS, as in expressly
forbidden. In other words...illegal.
>>>

Google is NOT the law. Against their TOS? yes
Against...eg, TOS of affiliate programs (cookie stuffing etc...) yes
But "illegal" ---> not really.

This might come once Big G "overtakes" our government and actually makes their rules "law"...then we can talk about illegal

Edit: Hacking, Scamming...of course, if you talk about such things. But then we're not talking about BH, but plain and simple crimes.

A good rule of thumb, at least as I see it, is that blackhat = temporary.

Sure, it can be argued that everything is temporary but gaming a system that builds itself against being gamed is about as futile on the long term as it gets.

How about this...Google says it's against their TOS to create doorway pages. I create 10,000 doorway pages and put them on my own domain. I pay for hosting, the domain name, etc. Google comes and spiders my site and many of my pages get good rankings/traffic.

Isn't it Google's problem to follow their own TOS and only add pages they want? I don't recall them following my TOS.

I think most will agree that spamming other sites, like social bookmarking sites, is blackhat. But what if you only "spam" using pretty good content that actually improves the quality of the other sites? I'd say this is grayhat.

"Blackhat" is just a word.

I think each of us has to decide where to draw our own line. For example, "nude celeb" YouTube videos leading to CPA farms aren't my thing - there are things I won't do to make a dollar. On the other hand, when I find an open edu blog, I'm very likely to post a comment for a backlink.

Both might be considered black or gray hat. We just have to decide how far our personal code of ethics will let us go. For some, it won't be very far. For others... don't stand in their way.

People made and make giant amounts of money with BH/Gray methods..this is, once a method is discovered but not widely known yet.

This whole "ethic debate"....it does not only apply to Google and IM..of course it also applies to marketing in general.

Just watch a typical infomercial...and ask yourself how ethical everything said there is Or any random commercial.

Ethics and Marketing...oh my...

I find it remarkable that you think breaking the TOS is "illegal". If we are talking about blackhat SEO here where you create thousands of blog farms that link your landing page. Then it's just the search engines own fault.. it's certainly not YOUR fault that google wish to rank you no. #1 for "viagra" etc.

If we are talking about lead fraud then yes.. it's illegal and will get you banned from any CPA network. Well.. almost any network.

Hi,

Interesting thread. I won't focus on the difference between what's illegal and what's contrary to someone's TOS, as that appears to have been clarified, but it does surprise me that people don't understand this. Google are the same as you or I - they're an internet business, that is all. They are in no position to make laws, just as you or I are not.

As Ram said -
Steven,

If you consider the nature of that type of business, I wonder where you went to get this education and to do the research? I wonder if you thought that if you searched google for 'black hat' that you would find the answers?

As I said, if you consider the nature of it, then it's unlikely to be found on a web page anywhere. If it was, then it wouldn't be a valid black hat technique (anymore), would it?

You also said -

and other people mentioned this aspect too -

Personally, I don't think the 'system' builds itself against being gamed. I would reword that to say that the system is built to make money. And to maintain it's integrity (and continue to make money) it needs to create the impression that it builds itself against being gamed. More than a subtle difference, I suggest. Especially if your livelihood could only gain by understanding this difference, and what it means - (they're focused on making money. They don't mind us making money either. They would prefer it if our money making endeavours didn't negatively affect theirs.)

I wonder if people have considered that just because the sort of stuff you will find on (allegedly) 'black hat' sites and IM sites is the sort of in-yer-face stuff, always related to doing things (noticeably) en masse and obviously for the short-term, doesn't mean that the people who do it seriously are that naive, and that they would only build systems for the short-term that will get closed-off because they are so obvious?

It just seems a little funny to me that there seems to be an underlying assumption that black hatters would conduct their business in a certain way - IE - short term methods, obvious/easy to discover methods (like they're going to try and earn a bit extra on the side by selling their trade secrets by splashing them all around the internet) - when the truth is that these are the traits of the average IMer, much more than the average black hatter.

And in case anyone takes offence at that statement, rather than me suggesting it, it's undeniable logic that suggests it.

I just think that it would be wise to look at things this way - people who write solo articles and submit them to directories as a business model, shouldn't throw stones at people who know how to operate with stealth, without selling out and who don't assume (without any consideration or proof) that their business is better or more 'right' than others, and that they are even in a position to judge what is right or wrong, because they know what is best for the internet as a whole.

To give this post some context, I'll mention that this is not something that I get heavily involved in, therefore I am not fighting my own corner from an emotional point of view.

I'm simply suggesting that it might be a reasonable idea to consider this alternative point of view - mainly because if you want to learn about something and gain from it, it's best to plan your approach without bias, naive thinking, assumptions and closed mindedness.

Otherwise you might just end up studying part time IMers claiming to be black hatters and consequently end up no wiser and possibly going off in completely the wrong direction. How different would the viewpoints and underlying attitude be if we were to consider black hatters as the people who provide the groundwork, solid knowledge and inspiration for the biz-opp industry?

Sorry if this cuts close, but from my viewpoint, aspects of the current discussion could be viewed as badly trained mercenaries sneering downwards at the operations of the Special Air Service - and I'd hate to see my warrior friends getting too big for their boots and making this error of judgement. There is probably much that we don't know, but would dearly love to - isn't that a better way to view it?

HTH

You say tomato, I say tomato (that doesn't really work well as text )

There is such a thing as black hat, black hat is using tactics that breach their terms of service. Simply calling it a different name doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As for it being illegal, that isn't true either. Googles TOS are able to govern their own sites and properties, not the internet as a whole. Google doesnt equal the internet.

For your own site, you are entitled to do as you want provided it is within actual legal guidelines of your own country.

I agree with you 100% though, if you want to play then you DO have to stick to their rules. But if you don't you aren't about to have the FBI knocking at your door because you used an RSS scraper to build backlinks.

The only problem with being that black and white about things is that you can end up hurting your reputation by using some of the black hat strategies, damaging other parts of your business. Some of the supposedly "Black Hat strategies" I've heard about would probably accomplish damaging your reputation a bit.

One thing that I always found funny about the Adsense and Adwords gurus is that they supposedly have such amazing income from it that creating an ebook would essentially be a waste of time, and come on, once you share a "secret" with 10 000+ people it is pretty far from being one, and I think one of the reasons adsense ctr is going down the drain is that you see the ads EVERYWHERE, sorry if this seems unrelated, just started thinking about it after reading this post and the replys.

Breaking a ToS will most often get you a warning get your account suspended or deleted or in this particular case removed from the search engine, although is suspect Google doesn't even have the manpower to go the top 10 sites of a 100 000th of their keywords checking for "SEO Optimization" and proceding to remove them. In some special cases you might get sued but I highly doubt that Google will sue you for them adding a site to their SE that breaks their TOs lol.

If you join a Forum that says no spam and you spam, you get deleted or suspended or get a warning or whatever.
If you join an affiliate program that says no spamming and you spam you get deleted(most likely) if not worse.
In a way yes it is a contract but legal consequences after breaking some site's TOS is extremely rare, as opposed to contracts made with your Employer etc..

Double posted oops - see below

Hi,

I'm not suggesting that dictionary.com is gospel or anything, but I believe the two links below give a hint to the differences -

terms of service definition | Dictionary.com

legal definition | Dictionary.com

Edit - Yes Steven, I agree. Thanks for getting it going :-)

Black OPS (civilians use the term black hat) by definition, is an operation that is handled outside of standard protocol, while maintaining legal and ethical norms.

The project is consistent with stated targeted objectives set forth in the POR (Plans and Operations Request) in accordance with an executive or administrative order.

To go back to part of Steven's original post

I think the key word here is "educated".

I bought a recent blackhat WSO because the main thrust of the sales pitch was about learning the blackhat/illegal techniques that people use to steal money/traffic from you so you could protect yourself from them.

There were some real eyeopeners there. At least now I know what to look for - forewarned is forearmed (until the next generation of blackhat tactics).

Martin

Steven,

I think the reason you seemed to have opened a box containing more than you expected is pretty simple:

1 - You probably thought you were just being controversial and started the thread thinking people would have opinions and make a nice long thread for you, but didn't expect your own methods to get caught up in the discussion.

2 - You picked a subject which is largely subjective

3 - You created a false connection between what's legal / illegal and white/black hat.

Black hat doesn't have to mean illegal or in breach of a websites TOS.

Who knows what TOS every website on the Internet has?

It's possible that you could create a website that said you must not mention their site on the same page as where you mention a competitor, but then a site you've been promoting becomes their competitor - all of the previous pages in your archives would need to be trawled to find if/where that happened.

People talk about gaming Google as illegal, unethical, blackhat - but Google comes along and takes your pages and shows them to surfers without your permission.
People say spamming to get links is blackhat and against Googles TOS because they don't want your site coming to the top just because you want it to - BUT they'll happily let you pay them for the same effect using PPC.

Google doesn't care about anything but making money.

You say you would rather do things that you think will keep your site safe from being dropped - that's impossible - YOU don't control that.

I've had perfectly "white hat" created sites with nothing but good content and over 10,000 pages suddenly disappear from Google in an algorithm change designed to stop something or other not related to my site -but they don't care. You can't ask "please can you put my site back up" - they're not interested.

So, this is a double-edged sword. You can make more money by pandering to what you think Google want and 'SEO' your content - but you don't actually control anything about your business that is completely in the control of their index. Whatever you do - your site could disappear forever.

They could easily see using articles for links as spam and de-index every article they find that's not on the authors domain - and why shouldn't they?

This discussion is meaningless because it's been framed as a good against evil, legal against illegal thing - which it isn't.

You can do whatever you like with your site based on your business model and what you're trying to achieve.

If I paid 1000000 people to bookmark my next website or all of my articles - It WOULD make money and it wouldn't be detectable by any search engine algorithm, so while it would 'obviously' be dodgy it may or may not be against different sites TOS - How can I tell whether it is or isn't and which sites TOS it's against? If I'm just doing my own thing - I would have to check every website on the Internet (and the ones to come) in order to know who's TOS I might be breaching.

I say if you're trying to game any part of the system by doing extra activities to get better rankings - you're doing blackhat.

In reality most Black-hatters consider normal IM activities as not very black hat because hard-core blackhatters are all about doing things on a massive scale in short amounts of time - so that you can quickly get full effect of a strategy before the masses find out and ruin it.

There is not fixed line - as soon as one website changes their TOS - that change might mean you're now in breach.

This discussion can go around in circles forever - why waste any more time on a subjective issue like this?

Just do what you want and stick to your own ethics. There's always someone else who thinks yours are wrong, so just do whatever you think is right for your business and forget what things you don't like that others are doing.

It's a real waste of time to come up with ways to find other people as wrong and keep yourself right.

Andy

Steve:

I don't want to parse words too much, but I think you came on too strong in your opinion on this one.

When I think of the word illegal, I think of things like fines and jailtime.

Unless violating google's tos just became a federal crime, I don't think doing those things is illegal in the least.

Now is it immoral and or unethical? Absolutely. Should you do it? Only if you don't care about getting your website permanently banned by Google six months down the road.

It's dumb as dog$h1t, but not illegal.

Thinking this way is just asking for trouble.

There is clearly a spirit with which laws and terms of service are made.

If you're within the terms of service AND the spirit of those guidelines then you're unlikely to have a problem.

But if you're going to approach your SEO like a lawyer thinking you can do anything that hasn't been flagged YET then expect to have your sites disappear of the search engines when your fancy new technique does get flagged.

Having said all that I will admit to experimenting with a few unusual techniques on sites that were marginal but I would never consider making those techniques part of a long term mode of operation.

If you want search engine traffic the only long term way to be sure of getting it is to provide a ton of high quality, highly targeted content in a way that makes it easy for someone using a search engine to find the information they're looking for on your site.

Now short term anything's possible but it's not wise to start counting on methods that are likely to stop working or get your sites dumped as soon as Google works out what you're doing.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

First, Steven creates a post with this imperative subject line:
"There Is No Such Thing As Blackhat"

Then he goes on to say he becomes more and more confused by responses of others who make attempts at explanation.

Steven made the the statement "There Is No Such Thing As Blackhat". Let him defend that statement, rather than cower behind "Now I'm more confused now because I am so lilly-white"

Blackhat is a term used to describe tactics that exploit opportunities, no more and no less.

If you follow Matt Cutt's definition, your precious Bum Marketing is "Black Hat" when you examine the definition of off-site SEO.

So-called "Black Hat" is not about fraud. It's not about breaking laws. Fraud and illegality have no place in the sort of marketing that any of us undertake.

Best,
Seven

illegal = prohibited by law.

Google or any other website is not law, so how can black hat be illegal?

Steven, you have certainly opened a can of worms.

What would you consider link cloaking and redirects to be?

a) whitehat
b) greyhat
c) blackhat


steve

If Steve would have just listened to me earlier in the thread he would have had things straight..

I'm sorry to be so brash but it's true. The continuation was merely to feed his own addiction to controversial threads.....



Peace

Jay

Hi Jay,

As I briefly hinted at earlier, there's an interesting tangential aspect stemming from Steven's creation of this thread which is peoples' varying opinions of what 'doing research' and 'educating themselves' means.

Personally, those aren't statements that I would throw around lightly - particularly if -

a) I was trying to position myself as an expert/guru/teacher/info marketer

b) I was to start threads making (over the top) strong claims but then demonstrate my complete lack of knowledge and grasp/understanding of the subject within that thread

:rolleyes:

Hmmmm I'd get involved with this thread because I love the topic, but there is a bigger cause to attend to over the next week.

Whether the hat is black, grey, white, pink, yellow does it really matter?

When you stop and think about it...ultimately you have to use your head when it comes to SEO and know what the consequences of your actions are when your using certain techniques.

If your not comfortable using certain "hat" techniques your under no obligation to use them no one is forcing you, its a personal and strategic business choice that works long term and short.

Just know what your getting into.

I'll publicly state I use all the hats (except pink) and I sleep very well at night

Do you want to make a quick $10K in a week? or take a year to make it?

As the very well known Blackhat marketer Howie S. says when it comes to wearing different hats... "when my competitors are across the battlefield using be be guns(trying to build links and ranking for SEO) I'm in a sherman tank crushing them"

What does the big "G" think about black hat?

By what their doing online themselves their a black hat machine that can't be stopped. I could get into it, but again there's a bigger cause about to go on for this week.

At the end of the day its about making as much money as you can for as long as you can. Use your head when it comes to black hat, Grey hat, white hat, or pink hat marketing ;-)

Its all about business and making money.

And I'm not the only one that thinks that.

Take a quote out from the Donald trump himself. "when someone is trying to kick your ass in business, you kick their ass 10x harder so they'll never come after you again and you own that business."

Also read Donalds other book, "Why We Want You To Be Rich" a real eye opener when it comes to business and walking the fine line.

As well "Think BIG and Kick Ass" in Business and Life... A stunner of a book. When I listend to a 2 hour audio between Bill And Donald it shocked me as to what they said in some parts about growing your business fast by any means neccessary.

Makes you wonder

To your continued online success

Peter

I just ask myself this question (constantly): Just because it's legal, is it moral and ethical? As in, Am I affecting others negatively? I want to be cutting edge and effective but if it doesn't pass the ethical test I will leave it alone. This seems to guide me.

Jay

This is what I think:

An article submitted to goarticles or eza is nothing more than a doorway page to whatever page you link to. A lot of warriors have hundreds or articles out there pointing to 1 particular landing page thus breaking google TOS about doorway pages.

Then you have those that have figured out how to automate the system and covertly do the same thing faster and cheaper.

The only difference is 'SPEED'

The marketer who submits articles whether written, spun or personally authored is trying to submit 'doorway pages' that they consider to be 'good' content (at least in their eyes) and this process can take a long time to do...and he considers himself WH

The marketer who submits hundreds of 'doorway pages' a day in an automated fashion is not only doing the same thing but ranking higher for the keyword faster thus making more money faster. Tip: Easily done with xsitepro 2

To me BH is the speed in wich you create your doorway pages.

Now, Cookie Stuffing is Just Wrong ;p Courthouse News Service

Greenovni

PS. I know that there are a lot more techniques out there that are really black but that's another topic for another day.

No sorry, don't see where you're coming from.

The problem I see is that people call things blackhat which isn't blackhat.

As has been said any offsite SEO is blackhat which means you are well into it with the number of articles you have on EZA.

There are a number of blackhatters here selling their reports, and depending on what they are would show what colour their hat really was. For some it is a fashion statement, they want to be seen to be cool, hip, wicked and so they follow the herd in claiming to be blackhat whereas they are not.

I was on twitter the other day, and someone put a link to something a guru had said. No the link was to a cookie stuffing site the guru had. It was scripts which killed firefox but didn't allow me access to anything other than their site. Only way out was to close the computer, and then clear out everything (there were a lot I checked) of things they dumped on my computer. That is blackhat.

A challenge for you Steven. You made a definitive statement "There is no such thing as blackhat" and my challenge to you is prove it.

Prove that what happened to me and hundred and thousands of other people isn't blackhat.

Steven I usually love your posts but this one.

You say that things have to be black and white in your world of marketing and that BH methods are 'illegal'.

Then in you other thread http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...th-yes-no.html you ask this question:


Spamming 4 back links (to a 'mass number of sites' is a 'blackhat' method)

See, what is blackhat to me might just be whitehat to you.

Not that this really has anything to do with anything but could you liken Black-Hatting to an infection that Google's immune system (TOS) must constantly adapt to counter?

Dunno why I'm even saying this... it's just something that occured to me when reading this thread and I tend to post before I think.

I believe it is also against Google's TOS for my kids to use Google to search the Web.

2.3 You may not use the Services and may not accept the Terms if (a) you are not of legal age to form a binding contract with Google, or (b) you are a person barred from receiving the Services under the laws of the United States or other countries including the country in which you are resident or from which you use the Services.

You think Google is interested in enforcing that?

Anybody using any third-party tools. any scripts, any stand-alone software that accesses Google data?

5.3 You agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services by any means other than through the interface that is provided by Google, unless you have been specifically allowed to do so in a separate agreement with Google. You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts or web crawlers) and shall ensure that you comply with the instructions set out in any robots.txt file present on the Services.

People worry an awful lot if techniques are blackhat etc. Some people such as CPA abusers have been sued. I'm not surprised, that's theft. If you are gaining comission in a manner that advertisier finds unacceptable then it is fraud at least.

Some blackhat techniques are about wasting peoples time and misleading them to generate clicks and once more get comission in a less than honest way.

I don't think all Blackhat is illegal by a long shot, whatever definition you use, but it certainly tends that way with the more hard core techniques.

What if you see a red door and you want it painted black?

IMHO, Blackhat does exist, and it has another meaning to me, namely the education and training component. For example, see Black Hat : About Us : About Black Hat

We are curious to know how technologies and techniques work, and we don't blindly follow what the vendor tells us. Sure there are terms of service and acceptable usage policies, but beyond that, how far did the corporation go to protect my interests? Consider for a moment the actions of Sony and their unannounced rootkit.

What if there is a flaw in their implementation that exposes me to significant risk? How much testing was completed with real data to close loopholes and security violations? I want to know about all of it, the good and the bad, not just what is sugar coated by the public relations and marketing department. And the only way to do that is to talk with others, try your own tests, and see if the results measure up to what you've been told.

But your original post was about methods of promotion and search engine optimization. To that point I will say that Google is big, but they are not the only search engine out there. The only reason you are even saying there is no such thing as Blackhat, is because you believe what Google tells you. Maybe that's a good thing if you are earning pennies from Adsense, and are happy with daily TOS changes. But what is accepted practice today can easily become a "blackhat method" tomorrow, all at the whim of company executives. Doesn't Blackhat just mean you are trying to figure out how and why certain things work?

Hi Steve, i feeled compelled to respond to your very first post on this topic.

Below is taken word-4-word from your post.

"These blackhat methods are AGAINST these sites TOS, as in expressly
forbidden. In other words...illegal.

That's not blackhat folks. That's just flat out illegal."

Um...Steve, it...it sounds like to me that you believe each and every company under the sun had their TOS drawn up by some super power government.
And that if a human being violates the TOS....they have done something illegal.

I'd like to suggest something: That is....maybe the human being simply violated a company's TOS.....but saying this person did something illegal........well.....come now Steve....that ridiculous....isn't it??

We have no idea what each and every company's TOS's include.

Just a thought.

Gary Charles Roblin

You are right, Black hat is Either illegal or White Hat...and Stealing or Scamming is Blackhat and Other ways to rank hight in Search engine is not illegat...Am i right guys??

I'm going to be real honest here. I have been in the blackhat industry for 3 years now. Yeah sure, I do a lot of white hat stuff as well. The difference is the results. Blackhat is short term but equals mountains of money. White hat is long term so the short term cash flow is not that much compared to BH.

There is definitely a fine line between illegal and "inappropriate" with regards to blackhat. Many newcomers to SEO for instance make big SEO mistakes. Sometimes they keyword spam or even buy massive amounts of links without even knowing that they are performing some sort of blackhat technique.

Are they doing something illegal? No I highly doubt that. The thing is, illegal is too harsh of a word to use. SEO is a game. It has rules that you need to follow in order to get the reward. Now if you play by the rules the game is going to take a bit long. Some folks just spot the short cuts and get the reward much faster, BUT the game soon figures out they cheated and punishes them back to block number 1.

The fact is, blackhatters will always lose in the long run, but they'll walk away with more money LOL.

One old blackhat technique still used today is to purchase forum site wide links. You get like 2000-50000 links instantly.

Google is gaming us, and we are just playing the game. Taking short cuts is a "rewarded -risk" if you can say it that way, but in no way is it illegal otherwise all the newbie blackhatters would have had their asses in jail by now.

The word illegal is a poor choice, since everyone here is using a different definition. Some are relating it to the law while others simply refer to it as 'breaking the rules', like an illegal move in chess.

Personally, I believe black hat means you're violating the terms of service, and run the risk of being banned if discovered. On the other hand, with grayhat you're playing by the rules, but searching for loopholes and bending them in such a way that was not intended.

Either way, while investigating these methods, there's going to be a large overlap. Therefore, it's up to you to research each technique and find the consequences for putting it into action.

Black hat refers to any techniques that the search engines do not approve of, and you can usually check the TOS for this, but generally speaking - any forms of trying to cheat or trick the search engines is what makes it black hat.

Personally when I hear black hat, I'm thinking content cloaking, keyword stuffing, and other more up to date tactics that the folks who class themselves to be blackhat are coming up with - but basically it's anything that the SE's would rip you a new one for if they found out you were doing it.

It's a gray area for sure, and even SEO consultants who consider themselves to be whiter than white like the daz doorstep challenge (sorry, you'll only get that if you're in the uk ) have to be careful.

I consider myself white hat all the way, not because I'm some kind of saint, but because I see the black hat approach as an endless battle that you're never going to win in the long term.

Black hat strategies will only work as long as you stay one step ahead of the search engines, and make sure that they don't figure out what you're doing. I know there are some very clever people out there - but you have to remember that Google have hundreds of very, very clever people, and a boatload of money, I personally wouldn't bother trying to outwit them!

Personally I see myself as having a relationship with the search engines, and all relationships are about give & take - give them good keyword relevant content, content that is of value for their visitors, and as a result you get search engine traffic. Black hat, imho, is all about trying to take without giving, by trying to cheat the search engines into thinking you're giving. Like any relationship, you can only cheat for so long before you get caught out!

White hat isn't easy either, you have to keep up to date with what is & isn't acceptable. Google is like the highest maintenance partner you could ever dream of having, LOL.. Can be difficult to know where you stand even when you're not trying to cheat, so I wouldn't expect to have long term success with them by trying to pull the wool over their eyes.



Kev