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Frustrated by all the Gurus and their Crappy Products?

by ShaneRQR
62 replies
I can't help but notice a lot of threads and posts along the lines of:

"The Gurus SCREWED me!!"

"I can't believe how bad product X was!"

"Why is everyone trying to sell crap to me?"


I'm sure you know what I mean.

To be honest, while I can completely understand this kind of frustration, I find it a bit puzzling to see how many people seem to get themselves into these situations where they get frustrated and feel like they've been cheated and misled.

I think it's true that there are MANY internet marketing products that are downright awful or don't nearly live up to their claims, to say the least. And yes, if you buy into the hype and then get the product, that can be frustrating.

But first of all, I don't think this has anything to do with internet marketing or "Gurus".

90% of everything is crap. That's just how it is.


The great thing is that it's very, very easy to avoid this kind of frustration and find the 10% of stuff that isn't crap. Here's the solution to your problems:


Don't buy from people who haven't previously given you good reason to trust them.


First of all, you need to be aware that at any given time, there are always going to be a dozen "LIMITED TIME ONLY! ULTIMATE SYSTEM MAKES YOU MONEY IN YOUR SLEEP! GET IT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!" type of programs on offer. Every single one will make it seem like this is the one you need to get and that it's the last chance etc.

Well, since there's constantly fresh products like this popping up, you really don't need to worry about the scarcity factor. There's always going to be another one.

Secondly, getting back to the statement above: Don't buy from someone who hasn't earned your trust.

Almost every marketer gives away free products, right? Well, check out those products. They're an indicator of the quality this marketer produces.

Every marketer has a list, right? Isn't that great? You can just look at what kind of e-mails you get and you'll quickly know whether you want to buy from that person or not.

  • Constantly promoting the newest, hottest thing as an affilite? -> No thanks.
  • Never sending anything that isn't a promotion? -> No thanks.
  • Offers actual value from time to time and cares about his/her subscribers? -> Excellent!


In a nutshell, I recommend that you give people a higher priority than products and sales-pitches.
"Who am I buying from?" is, to me, the more important question than "What am I buying?"

As a concrete example: Two of my favourite marketers are Eben Pagan and Jason Fladlien.

With both of these guys, when they release a product that's in line with my current plans, I pretty much buy without even taking a closer look at the offer.
Why? They have both produced good stuff consistently, they never sell out, they write newsletters worth reading (actual content, and stuff) and they both offer free stuff that is stellar in quality (Eben is the king of the free line and Jason... get on one of his webinars as soon as you can. It'll be up to 30% hardcore sales-pitch, but the 70% before that are consistantly awesome.).

In both cases, you could check them out thoroughly by looking at the content they give away for free and by being on their newsletter for a while.

And on the flipside, there are certain marketers who I wouldn't buy from in a million years, simply because I've seen how little they care and what kind of crap they promote to their lists.


Ok, this turned out longer than I planned. Sorry for rambling. Here's the key, money-and-frustration-saving point again:

Don't buy from people who haven't previously given you good reason to trust them.

Cheers,
Shane
#frustration #money #quick #save #tip
  • Profile picture of the author higginb3
    Very well said... selling the shovel.... that seems to be what it is all about these days.
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  • Profile picture of the author gj2802
    Well said Shane

    Haven't bought anything from Eben Pagan but I agree with you about Jason.. he delivers good content and also does a good webinar...with enthusiasm...and he's for real.!!

    What I'm finding some of the best stuff is right here in front of our very noses, I have made some fantastic purchaese and far better than these so called CB Guru launches..

    - G
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by higginb3 View Post

      Very well said... selling the shovel.... that seems to be what it is all about these days.
      Let's be fair. If you dig holes for a living, you need a good shovel. Nothing wrong with being an honest shovel-seller when the market actually needs shovels.

      The problem is there's a guy selling mops, telling you it's a shovel, and promising you it'll dig a hole by itself while you sip on a mint julep in your hammock.

      Back to Shane's earlier point - that's a really good strategy, and it's one that's served me well. And the fact is, the ONLY time you need to buy something is when it happens to aid your current plan.

      I'll tell you a secret - if ever there's something that's on sale for a limited time, and you DON'T actually need it to solve a problem at hand, DON'T give in to the temptation of false time-sensitivity.

      I promise that if whatever you want is "closed" when you finally need it, just email and ask. I can guarantee you with 99% certainty that if the media exists and is connected to a shopping cart, they WILL sell it to you if you want it.

      And one final additional rule of thumb that I use to gauge my own purchases:

      Does the sales material actually tell me what the product is and does? If it's all about secrets and insiders and blah blah blah, most likely, it ain't really a secret. The secret is if they put it in the letter, they'd get called out.

      Or alternately, the method inside is so simplistic that if they even explained it, you would get it and be able to do it for free - which only proves the info had no value in the first place.

      If the secret nature of a thing is the primary value, it's probably not that valuable - or at least won't be for long, because when you sell a secret, it kind of has the tendency to STOP being a secret.

      If the product can't be honest about what it is and what it does BESIDES the money it will allegedly make you, it's very, very likely a dubious proposition.

      Good post, Shane.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
        Thanks for the many replies!


        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

        Nothing wrong with being an honest shovel-seller when the market actually needs shovels.

        The problem is there's a guy selling mops, telling you it's a shovel, and promising you it'll dig a hole by itself while you sip on a mint julep in your hammock.
        What a perfect analogy!



        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

        Does the sales material actually tell me what the product is and does? If it's all about secrets and insiders and blah blah blah, most likely, it ain't really a secret. The secret is if they put it in the letter, they'd get called out.
        This is a very good point. I've also found that the more vague the sales material is about the actual method, the less valuable, useful and novel that method usually turns out to be.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          There's a critical element buyers of the products should understand. What trigger words work for you?

          If you look at the titles of make money products, almost all attempt to use triggers. Easy, fast money, next week money, money tomorrow, retired, millionaire, fast, dominate, ninja,.....

          For some people, what the sales page says doesn't matter because they're already hooked on the idea of "fast easy money with little or not time/work" of the title.

          All the sales copy must do is not mess up that pretty dream. For some of these products, no matter how people post "this is crap" there will be someone saying "think I'll give it a try".

          I like the mop/shovel analogy - but for some you could tell them it's a mop that will wash away the dirt without lifting a heavy shovel...and they'll buy that theory.

          kay
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            What trigger words work for you?


            kay

            Colin had me at "mint julep". I had my credit card out, frothing at the mouth with anticipation.
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          • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            There's a critical element buyers of the products should understand. What trigger words work for you?

            If you look at the titles of make money products, almost all attempt to use triggers. Easy, fast money, next week money, money tomorrow, retired, millionaire, fast, dominate, ninja,.....

            For some people, what the sales page says doesn't matter because they're already hooked on the idea of "fast easy money with little or not time/work" of the title.

            All the sales copy must do is not mess up that pretty dream. For some of these products, no matter how people post "this is crap" there will be someone saying "think I'll give it a try".

            I like the mop/shovel analogy - but for some you could tell them it's a mop that will wash away the dirt without lifting a heavy shovel...and they'll buy that theory.

            kay
            Kay, you said a mouthful!

            What's amazing is these very same individuals will raise hail, start flaming fueled threads and go on an all out blitzburghs against the vendor after their magic get rich quick pill fails to generate them $47,829.13 within two weeks, starting from scratch with absolutely no IM experience.

            In the grand scheme of things, the psychology of selling ice to an Eskimo is always going to trump common sense. Countless noobies verify the veracity of the statement everyday as they gleefully purchase the next Internet Marketing traffic magic pill product.

            The bottom line; they want and demand magic pills and somebody is going to sell them what they want!

            Giles, the Crew Chief
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  • Profile picture of the author webfighter
    Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

    Offers actual value from time to time and cares about his/her subscribers? -> Excellent!
    This is really a wonderful tip that I've been following
    for a few months now. I was virtually on lists of every
    big marketer out there. Though, I don't buy high ticket
    items, I'm on close look at what those guys offer and
    how things work.

    I once emailed all of them with a simple email and saw
    which of them bothered to get back. Apparently and
    funnily enough, the ones that didn't would constantly
    mention things like "how are you doing?" etc. in their
    post script and so on.

    On another note, you have some really valuable points
    in your thread but the statement "Don't buy from people
    who haven't previously given you good reason to trust
    them." doesn't really adds up to me without the context.
    Evidently, I have had some good experiences with
    purchases from lesser known marketers (those without
    even a list) and WSOs from new warriors.

    It all brings down to common sense. Truth is, you can't
    complaint much if you were not mislead by the sales
    letter/video. But if you were, you are
    entitled for a refund. If you're not granted a refund, it
    shows for some shady practices on the author's part
    a.k.a. scamming. Plus, someone who doesn't care for
    his/her customer isn't going to be in the business for
    long anyways.

    Plus, one needs to hold their temptation for buying every
    other hyped stuff. In my case, I had no money when I started
    out (been living on my parents) and that seem to have
    helped me when I hear all thesehorror stories.
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  • Profile picture of the author CianMcCarthy
    Banned
    The best products actually spill their ''secrets'' in their pre-sell...think of Google Sniper
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  • Profile picture of the author Gavin Stephenson
    Originally Posted by CianMcCarthy View Post

    The best products actually spill their ''secrets'' in their pre-sell...think of Google Sniper
    That's the key to conversions, If someone reads or watches crappy content they automatically think the product is going to rubbish also and vise versa.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
    I've always found if you give away your best stuff for free, people will fold the value of the free stuff into the value of whatever they eventually buy.

    And you can explode your business around your competition, because they can't figure out how you can give away your best stuff and still profit.

    In IM, for whatever reason, the "free giveaway" has been reduced down to just some chintzy garbage PLR knick-knack. No wonder so many people can't "make it" if that's all they try.

    But if you actually give away AMAZING stuff, and ask for nothing in return except continued attention, that attention WILL convert into sales when you ask for them.

    "There is sublime thieving in all giving. Someone gives us all he has and we are his."
    -- Eric Hoffer
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    • Profile picture of the author AffiliateMax
      Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

      But if you actually give away AMAZING stuff, and ask for nothing in return except continued attention, that attention WILL convert into sales when you ask for them.
      Absolutely - you hit the nail on the head there.

      The only emails I read now are from people who actually offer something of value in them (eg: Paul Myers, Andy Williams) rather than just a copy and paste for whatever this weeks IM product launch is.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnB23
        I don't even pay attention to new stuff anymore (new to me is past 2000, lol).

        I think there's a goldmine of information in 90's, 80's and earlier material. Just waiting for *somebody* to harvest. Waiting for someone to put a spin on an old concept, and adapt it over to this thing called "the internet".

        I'm a big jay abraham fan, he's the "guru" I study the most. Its funny, during one of his seminars, one of his speakers (might have been mac ross or barney zick) talked about this thing called "the internet". This was a seminar in 93 or 95, pre internet really. And Zick analogized that the internet is like a telephone.

        It's mearly a means of communication. And everyone who's excited, shrieking..."I've got a website!", would be like someone saying..."I've got a phone!!" Haha. Whoop de whoop. Big deal. The real question is, how do you make it ring?

        I thought that was a great analogy. No wonder websites and copy/junk products turn off so many people. It's like exclaiming, "I've got a phone". But there's nothing on the phone that makes you want to order something. People are stupid, I've got to say.

        -I keep listening to old tapes, always picking up something new. If you arent getting anything new from what you study, maybe it is junk. One of the stories I was listening to tonight was coin dealer who sold 4,000 $20 st gauden (gold coins) from a 15 page letter jay wrote for him. And he mailed 10,000 or 12,000 people, lol. When was the last time you got a 15 page letter advertising rare coins that made you want to buy?

        -If the products you have aren't provoking you, and stimulating new thoughts, maybe its a waste of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author jijaybajay
    and notice that review sites? most of them are scams
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    A pint of creme de menthe for my poofy friend!
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb D Miller
    Thanks Shane! Those are great reminders.

    I find myself trusting the untrustables time and time again, and I just need to stop. I don't have the energy to follow all these new "methods" anyways. It's taking me off track and off focus.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    While I agree with a lot of this, I think there is a dangerous assumption in it: that not providing your list with loads of great free content means you are not a successfull marketer.

    I mentioned this in another thread, but I've tested this in a few niches and I always made more sales when I said "screw it", and just loaded up the autoresponder with promotions.

    Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY...".

    just something to think about...
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      This is a big injection of common sense.

      If you build the expectation with your list that you are going to sell the stuff, and you stay consistent with it, then guess what...most won't care.

      I don't give away much for free. I do from time to time, but I do it as a way to say thank you. Like customer appreciation.

      But I always tie in some sort of promotion.

      Most of the time, I just tell my list about a new product or service. Most don't care. And many are thankful that I told them.

      Just because i don't pour on free stuff left, right, and upside, doesn't mean squat. All of my products are valuable and helpful and I'm quite proud of them.

      Rob

      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      While I agree with a lot of this, I think there is a dangerous assumption in it: that not providing your list with loads of great free content means you are not a successfull marketer.

      I mentioned this in another thread, but I've tested this in a few niches and I always made more sales when I said "screw it", and just loaded up the autoresponder with promotions.

      Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY...".

      just something to think about...
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  • Profile picture of the author ninjawarrior
    Awesome post, Shane! Thanks for sharing!

    Is there a "favorites thread" thingie anywhere here? I really need to get back to this thread from time to time...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I find myself trusting the untrustables time and time again, and I just need to stop. I don't have the energy to follow all these new "methods" anyways. It's taking me off track and off focus.
      You've recognized the problem - now work on the solution. Break down the sales headline and the copy and ask yourself "what can I really expect?". Look for the triggers - analyze the copy to see what it is that is appealing to you.

      Then leave the sales page for at least 24 hours - when you come back you probably won't be interested UNLESS you read that entire sales copy once again.

      It's the same advice given by suicide prevention hotlines - don't do anything for 24 hours. Good advice that will save you time and money...and frustration.

      Thomas - you're just too easy:p

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    If you use words, phrases, and sales letter tactics designed to make people impulsively buy, then you get impulsive people buying.

    Impulsive buyers tend to be more remorseful buyers (Buyer's Remorse) and therefore want their money back.

    Impulsive people try to hide their mistakes (poor judgment in spending money they can't afford to spend) made by blaming others ("the product doesn't work").

    The make money niche also has a high number of Serial Hobbyists.

    These are people that jump from one opportunity to another. After letting others here know that they (the serial hobbyists) have purchased many products, they too want to hide their personal problem and start to play the blame game ("the product didn't work for me")

    Another group that buy make money products are people who are broke. Some of them purchase without talking to their spouses and then when the sh*t hits the fan, they have to take it out on someone ("the guru suckered me into buying the product").

    Finally, we marketers here have these discussions about ethics, product quality, gurus, what doesn't work...and these subjects are always accessible to the other groups above which gives more power to the defense mechanisms used above.

    The rest of us are reading a lot more of this as part of our continuing efforts to make our business better, our products, and have better relationships with our customers.

    A certain part of our brain is always thinking about these things. The point being that if you watched CNN for so many hours a day, you would begin to think the World was coming to an end. It isn't. It just seems that way.

    We don't have more crooks and con artist in our industry than any of the others. It just seems that way when we deal with it every day.

    So the bottom line is, don't let all of the negativity scare you into thinking that you have to "give away the farm" in order to be an ethical, decent marketer with a good product.
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    • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      While I agree with a lot of this, I think there is a dangerous assumption in it: that not providing your list with loads of great free content means you are not a successfull marketer.

      I mentioned this in another thread, but I've tested this in a few niches and I always made more sales when I said "screw it", and just loaded up the autoresponder with promotions.

      Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY...".

      just something to think about...
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      This is a big injection of common sense.

      If you build the expectation with your list that you are going to sell the stuff, and you stay consistent with it, then guess what...most won't care.

      I don't give away much for free. I do from time to time, but I do it as a way to say thank you. Like customer appreciation.

      But I always tie in some sort of promotion.

      Most of the time, I just tell my list about a new product or service. Most don't care. And many are thankful that I told them.

      Just because i don't pour on free stuff left, right, and upside, doesn't mean squat. All of my products are valuable and helpful and I'm quite proud of them.

      Rob
      I absolutely agree with that.
      In fact, I think most of the "give out tons of free stuff" advice is misleading. The idea is not to appease your list by giving them lots of free stuff so that "in return" they will also buy from you, occasionally. And neither is it to apologize for your marketing by giving out free stuff. Everytime I see something like "send X newsletters with free, valuable content, then one with a promotion" I think that that just can't be the right approach.

      Sure, giving out free stuff is great, but it's not the only way to provide value.

      A product launch is a good example of providing value (or perhaps the better word would be "proof"), during a marketing process. In my mind, the point of the launch series is to provide the prospects with something to go by that is more substantial than a sales-letter full of big promises and trigger words.

      Another factor for me is whether I'm involved in the market/niche or not. For some of my lists, I could certainly generate more profit by hammering out more promotions, but that's not my primary goal.
      I can get far more out of a list than just a bunch of commissions.



      Originally Posted by webfighter View Post

      On another note, you have some really valuable points
      in your thread but the statement "Don't buy from people
      who haven't previously given you good reason to trust
      them." doesn't really adds up to me without the context.
      Evidently, I have had some good experiences with
      purchases from lesser known marketers (those without
      even a list) and WSOs from new warriors.
      Well, with WSOs there's often very little risk involved anyway. It's not like it's a big loss if that $7 WSO doesn't deliver, is it? But even here, you can check out some posts the WSO seller made and see what kind of stuff they talk about and if that makes any sense.


      Originally Posted by Matt M View Post

      We don't have more crooks and con artist in our industry than any of the others. It just seems that way when we deal with it every day.

      So the bottom line is, don't let all of the negativity convince you that in order to be an ethical, decent marketer with a good product, scare you into thinking that you have to "give away the farm" in order to feel good about making a sale.
      Well said.
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  • Profile picture of the author ivanadee
    Yup...Agree with Kay...
    I have to admit the sales letter is strong enough to make us clicking the "buy now" button even if we have committed to focus (^_^). The solution comes from ur own willingness...be strong ^^
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY..."
      He has since said that he doesn't do that anymore, and that essentially he did that because people said it worked and it did work, but he'd never tried anything else.

      However, if you're on his lists now, he doesn't still do that, he doesn't teach it in any of the recent material I have, and actually advises the opposite.

      He also seems to sell more copies of even more expensive stuff than he ever did before, so I'm inclined to follow his current lead vs. what he said for Underachiever which was, what 04-05?

      Not saying it STILL won't work - just saying he doesn't really endorse it or do it himself as far as I can tell.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

        He has since said that he doesn't do that anymore, and that essentially he did that because people said it worked and it did work, but he'd never tried anything else.

        However, if you're on his lists now, he doesn't still do that, he doesn't teach it in any of the recent material I have, and actually advises the opposite.

        He also seems to sell more copies of even more expensive stuff than he ever did before, so I'm inclined to follow his current lead vs. what he said for Underachiever which was, what 04-05?

        Not saying it STILL won't work - just saying he doesn't really endorse it or do it himself as far as I can tell.
        true - but he's positioned himself much differently in the IM field. This was an 06 newsletter (within a year of mass control), and he'd already done his huge annihilation method launch and was a super star IM'er.

        On one of the Mass Control videos, for a split second you can see an aweber account. If you pause it, you can see it is a bunch of dog related lists. And the unsub rates are like 60% (a fairly good sign of hammering them).

        All this stood out to me because:
        a) it was incongruent with what a lot of warriors say/think
        b) it was incongruent with his IM persona
        c) it supported results from my own split tests.

        He may not use this approach with his IM list, but my point was simply that heavy promotion to a list is in no way a sign that the marketer is not highly successful, or that they can't publish a legit product on marketing.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          I find that interesting.

          I knew he pounded those lists...but I believe there is a very good reason for it.

          He kept 40% of his list...which if you figure the pounding he gave, it probably means that those 40% are buyers...who will buy again and again, most likely.

          The remaining are people who got weeded out.

          Now, could he sold the others with a more "gentle" approach? Probably...but that may have took more time, more baiting, more building up, etc.

          I think his philosophy was to just "get the sale as fast as possible".

          Shrank his list? For sure...made money? Yup.

          Rob



          Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

          true - but he's positioned himself much differently in the IM field. This was an 06 newsletter (within a year of mass control), and he'd already done his huge annihilation method launch and was a super star IM'er.

          On one of the Mass Control videos, for a split second you can see an aweber account. If you pause it, you can see it is a bunch of dog related lists. And the unsub rates are like 60% (a fairly good sign of hammering them).

          All this stood out to me because:
          a) it was incongruent with what a lot of warriors say/think
          b) it was incongruent with his IM persona
          c) it supported results from my own split tests.

          He may not use this approach with his IM list, but my point was simply that heavy promotion to a list is in no way a sign that the marketer is not highly successful, or that they can't publish a legit product on marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author jlucado
    Super post Shane.

    Those who complain about gurus taking advantage of them are those who are always looking for a better, fast way to arrive. Most are a little naive.

    There are people who will sell anyone anything and 90% of it is crap. The other 10% can really help you.

    Your advice is most meaningful. That is, learn about who you are buying from. Just get on their list and evaluate the quality of their emails. Find those who provide value and someone you trust.
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  • Profile picture of the author ninjawarrior
    Giving freebies isn't the only way to transmit that "caring" feeling to your customers, I believe. Eben Pagan was able to do so because his entire line of products all sold very well in the seduction niche, so it is easily conceivable that he simply had more resources at his disposal to produce more freebies that he could simply give away. We might also learn a thing or two if we consider that Eben Pagan was most probably practicing what he preached--he SEDUCED his buyers. Shane is clearly hooked, maybe in just some of DeAngelo's products, but clearly in his methods. I guess it's kind of like courting a woman for some period to secure and cement a firm relationship, thereby generating successive "sales".

    I contend that you don't have to be rich to produce quality products and make your customers feel that TLC, as much as you simply can't court a woman with lavish gifts and luxuries ESPECIALLY if you simply don't have the dough for it (in fact, Eben Pagan advises against this). But perhaps one key note about what Eben Pagan teaches is to do that which is COUNTER-INTUITIVE. In seduction, that would mean doing precisely the opposite of what is commonly thought of as normal behavior men would have towards attractive women, such as deliberately not complimenting a very beautiful woman's looks. So if applied to IM, being counter-intuitive could simply mean to give out more than you would take, if you can pull it off, that is.

    Just definitely worth looking into, in my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
    I believe a crucial distinction needs to be made in reference to Gurus versus Confidence artists.

    A genuine Guru is someone who is a recognized and trusted leader mentor and adviser.

    This type of IM DOES NOT put out crap products.

    Conversely, a Confidence artist, or con man for short, is a person who exploits the confidence of his victims. They put out crap products and software like there is no tomorrow with absolutely no compunction.

    Moreover, they could care less if their victims receive any value because they don't create products to provide value - they produce/copy/plagiarize products for the purposes of feeding their greed.

    So when you ask, "Frustrated by all the Gurus and their Crappy Products?" What you're really asking is, "Frustrated by all the Confidence Artists and their Crappy Products?"

    And when these Con men put out crap products, the IM community really needs to raise awareness by swiftly putting these worthless products on blast.

    Giles, the Crew Chief
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post

      Conversely, a Confidence artist, or con man for short, is a person who exploits the confidence of his victims. They put out crap products and software like there is no tomorrow with absolutely no compunction.
      How come the best white hat, halo-wearing, legal, ethical marketer in the world will still called a "marketer" just like every scumbag...

      But you break the law and you get to be "Confidence Artist"? I liked when they called 'em Bunko Men. Sounds way dirtier. Had to be a "marketer" turned rogue who came up with the name "Con Artist" right?
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

        Had to be a "marketer" turned rogue who came up with the name "Con Artist" right?
        I think Andrew Dice Clay nailed this one to the wall, although he was referring to a different group...

        "I call 'em c*cksuckers. I think that spells it out."
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Good discussion guys, I must say I've enjoyed reading this thread, more so than others of late.

    Seems everything on the WF is getting negative and it's good to see some common sense in the thread.

    Just wanted to say that - carry on.



    Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author ConnorMcCreesh
    With the battle between selling and freebies it is hard to choose the right balance. Really too much freebies can be counter productive, i am not sure how many PLR or rushed ebooks i have sitting around in my documents. But on the other hand if you spend all your time creating perfection reports and giving them away for free it may be counterproductive time wise even if you manage to secure more sales of a later product ( then if you sold the ebooks cheaply ).

    Just something to provoke thought
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise M.
    I made the decision to unsubcribe from many gurus' lists a while ago and it was a great decision. I'm focusing much more now. Most of them are just selling their own products or other gurus' products.

    Stop being a prospect, start being a marketer!
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  • Profile picture of the author coky
    As a concrete example: Two of my favourite marketers are Eben Pagan and Jason Fladlien.
    Hmmmm, Would like to meet them
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    • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
      Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post

      I believe a crucial distinction needs to be made in reference to Gurus versus Confidence artists.

      ...

      So when you ask, "Frustrated by all the Gurus and their Crappy Products?" What you're really asking is, "Frustrated by all the Confidence Artists and their Crappy Products?"
      That's a very good point. "Guru" sure is an overused and perhaps mis-used term in IM. I actually try to avoid the term most of the time as it seems that almost everyone using it is complaining, nowadays...

      But you're right: We should make the distinction between actual mentors and marketers and con men.


      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      I find that interesting.

      I knew he pounded those lists...but I believe there is a very good reason for it.

      He kept 40% of his list...which if you figure the pounding he gave, it probably means that those 40% are buyers...who will buy again and again, most likely.

      The remaining are people who got weeded out.

      Now, could he sold the others with a more "gentle" approach? Probably...but that may have took more time, more baiting, more building up, etc.

      I think his philosophy was to just "get the sale as fast as possible".

      Shrank his list? For sure...made money? Yup.

      Rob
      This is something I've been thinking about a lot, lately. Everyone talks about the size of lists. But actually, the size of the list hardly matters. A few weeks ago, I was playing around with a cheap trafficsource and built a list of 1200 in the fitness niche in about three days. Hardly cost me anything and I'd be well into five figures by now if I hadn't stopped the traffic. Only problem? That list doesn't convert worth a damn.

      In effect, having a large list like that is just costing me extra for the aweber subscription.

      If profit is the only goal, you should actually take steps to chase off freebie seekers and keep your lists as slim as possible, with only buyers on them.

      I don't want to take a brutal approach in markets that I'm involved in, but I do want to take some steps to "rack the shotgun" as Perry Marshal puts it. (Explanation: Walk into a gambling den and rack a shotgun - those who notice and look towards you are the guys you don't want to play/bet against. It's a way of pre-qualifying a crowd).



      Originally Posted by ConnorMcCreesh View Post

      With the battle between selling and freebies it is hard to choose the right balance.
      ...
      That's certainly ture. I'd even say that the typical, low-value PLR is probably counter-productive and you'd be better off not giving most of that stuff away...


      Originally Posted by Louise M. View Post

      Stop being a prospect, start being a marketer!
      Another great point. That's also something I try to teach whenever I'm coaching someone.


      Originally Posted by coky View Post

      As a concrete example: Two of my favourite marketers are Eben Pagan and Jason Fladlien.
      Hmmmm, Would like to meet them
      That might be difficult. But Eben Pagan has a lot of free video material you can find on YouTube (also search for "David DeAngelo", his pen name) and Jason Fladlien has a bunch of free, short reports and you can get on his list for webinar invites etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author D Baker
    I couldn't agree with you more.

    There really is no reason to blame or be frustrated with anyone else but yourself. I am pretty sure that after a very short period of time in the internet marketing make money online world you get the idea that everything is simply super hyped, and in 90% of the case with no real reason other than to get people to buy something.

    Every time I land on a sales page and go over the details, I still get that feeling of "Damn, this sounds like the best product ever and I really got to check this one out before it will be to late"... I really don't know, but it still happens to me even though I know it will probably won't give me anything of value. So, I made a deal with myself never to rush and buy a product. After reading and getting that feeling, I simply leave the computer for a few hours so all that hype will go away and I will be able to make a calculated decision.

    This deal I made with myself has saved me tons of money, but more importantly in my opinion, has saved me lots of time.

    Great post Shane and I really couldn't agree with you more.
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  • Profile picture of the author ashmaxdownunder
    If I see the word guru in any kind of ad, I run the other way
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    • Profile picture of the author TimG
      Sometimes the perception that garbage is being sold is based on the buyer's experience level.

      There are numerous times when I see a product that is a huge seller for a marketer get a bad review in the review section of this forum based on the fact that it reveals nothing new but that's probably because the person providing the review was not the intended target for that product. it was more then likely geared towards people new to IM.

      There are some marketers that do release top of the line products which always reveal something new and I think those folks are working towards trying to change the perception that every new product release is refurbished or rehashed garbage.

      Respectfully,
      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author marlon
        Hey,

        Marlon here.

        Man, I got started in direct response marketing in 1978.

        Let's see.

        I had:

        1. Tested Advertising Methods. Great book but dated.
        2. How To Write A Good Advertisement
        3. Robert Collier Letter Book
        4. First Hundred Million
        5. Jerry Buchanan's Writer's Utopia Formula Report
        6. Halbert newsletters when he got out of jail
        7. A few Dan Kennedy books
        8. Ben Suarez book

        That was ABOUT it for quality info.

        Do you have ANY idea how LUCKY and fortunate you are to have people
        with great ideas and experience to teach you?

        It took m 15 years of hard labor to learn to write copy...I wrote freelance
        in the day time, sold timeshare and anything else I could at night to pay
        bills.

        You can learn today in 1-3 months what took me YEARS to learn.

        Do you realize that in 1978:

        1. Jay Abraham hadn't come along so NO ONE knew what a USP was?

        2. Endorsement mailings were a concept not taught anywhere. Jay is the one who made those popular also...what is just COMMONLY accepted today even by newbs.

        3. Heck, no one had even taught back end marketing, other than I guess Ted Nicholas teaching the "ice cream cone" in 10 minutes at his speeches.

        You have an amazingly rich and wonderful variety of teachers to learn from today.

        Yes, the hype is out of control. But I find a lot of very high quality info in most guru products.

        It's very seldom I buy a highly promoted "guru" product and thin wow this sucks. I'm not saying there haven't been a few.

        But good grief.

        Do you have ANY concept of how great it is to have the variety of learning options you have today than LITERALLY have 6 or 7 books and almost no courses to learn from?

        I man, that's what I had to learn direct response marketing.

        It sucked. Really, really freaking sucked.

        I remember the FIRST time I heard Jay teach USP in teh $5000 protege program I bought from his first 32 page ad in Entrepreneur magazine.

        My mind EXPLODED because I realized why the heck I had the living daylights whipped out of me when I was in people's homes trying to sell "retiremement" programs at 9, 10, 11, 12 pm at night, desperate to make a sell.

        I didn't know what a USP was.

        I had NEVER hard of a joint venture, endorsed mailing or anything. When Jay taught that stuff it was like a whole vast new world opened up.

        Today no one realizes without Jay teaching that stuff where we might ALL would be!

        Lifetime value of a customer.
        USP
        Joint ventures
        Endorsemed mailings
        front end/back end

        ALL those concepts were virtually NON existent as an idea being taught by anyone anywhere prior to Jay Abraham coming along teaching them in 1989 or whenever it was.

        I practically owe my entire life in marketing to buying the original Protege program.

        Nowadays, of course, that stuff is just considered common knowledge.

        Even the impact that Corey Rudl's original course had on ME personally. I would have NEVER had the associate program for Amazing Formula without his course.

        And his course is what DROVE the invention of autoresponders. Because when he taught how he made all those extra sales by sending an email automatically 4 days after the initial sale, no one had EVER heard of such a thing.

        EVERYONE wanted to be able to do that. And thus autoresponder sequences were born. Without Corey teaching that, I don't know if autoresponders would even exist.

        I could go on and on and on. Heck, before Gary Halbert promoted the Atom Bomb seminar with Michael Enlow, NO ONE was even turned onto Internet marketing -- AT ALL. At that point, it was still aol, compuserve, prodigy and bbb's!

        Anyway, I wanted to say something about guru bashing because in my own personal opinion it's BITING the hand that feeds you.

        Best wishes,

        Marlon Sanders

        PS: I agree about Jason Fladlien's products. He's a friend. And he rocks.
        One of the great, bright, new fresh up-and-coming minds in Internet marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Thanks Marlon, we are incredibly blessed by the shear amount of information and experience inside the marketing community.

    It has allowed a lot of fresh upstarts to go from the usual hyped up headline of "rags to riches" pretty fast...

    Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    If you have a problem with somebody or their actions, my mother shared with me the following gem of wisdom:

    build a bridge and get over it.

    It has served me well since then, and will serve you as well.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Marlon, like yourself, I'm pretty old school too. Some of the books you mentioned bring back good memories. Jerry Buchanan's WUFR was one of the first books I ever got--way before Internet days. It was pretty small but inspiring. I still look at it from time to time. As I recall he had an article in there he wrote titled. The Master Salesman, which was excellent. I miss the guy. He was inspiring and a great teacher. --Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
      Originally Posted by TimG View Post

      Sometimes the perception that garbage is being sold is based on the buyer's experience level.

      There are numerous times when I see a product that is a huge seller for a marketer get a bad review in the review section of this forum based on the fact that it reveals nothing new but that's probably because the person providing the review was not the intended target for that product. it was more then likely geared towards people new to IM.

      There are some marketers that do release top of the line products which always reveal something new and I think those folks are working towards trying to change the perception that every new product release is refurbished or rehashed garbage.

      Respectfully,
      Tim
      That's a good point. I think I've mentioned this before in a thread somewhere: In many cases, there's nothing new under the sun, but the way information is delivered is where a lot of the value lies. There are good teachers and bad teachers and sometimes the simplest concept taught by a good teacher is worth more than the most complex and brilliant concept taught by a bad teacher.



      Originally Posted by marlon View Post

      Hey,

      Marlon here.

      Man, I got started in direct response marketing in 1978.

      Let's see.


      [snip] lots of great, wise stuff [/snip]


      Best wishes,

      Marlon Sanders

      PS: I agree about Jason Fladlien's products. He's a friend. And he rocks.
      One of the great, bright, new fresh up-and-coming minds in Internet marketing.

      Wow, thanks for that, Marlon.
      I honestly hadn't ever thought about it like that, but you're absolutely right: We can really count our blessigs when even a dunce like me can build a website in a few minutes flat and knows about USPs, JVs, upsells, cross-promotions etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author ChrisGuthrie
        I might recommend that you just do a thorough search for their name on Google. Most of the info marketers don't even have blogs which to me is the first of many red flags.

        I think the best way to build trust is through a blog that gives out quality free information constantly and if you're buying a product from someone that doesn't even maintain a blog then I'd spend more time determining if the person is actually legit (where is the social proof?)

        That's why I run a blog at least. If I recommend some product on my blog and there are 2,000 daily RSS readers then people are more inclined to believe what I have to say than some long form sales letter they stumbled upon.

        2 cents
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        • Profile picture of the author samuraiwriting
          Originally Posted by ChrisGuthrie View Post

          I might recommend that you just do a thorough search for their name on Google. Most of the info marketers don't even have blogs which to me is the first of many red flags.

          I think the best way to build trust is through a blog that gives out quality free information constantly and if you're buying a product from someone that doesn't even maintain a blog then I'd spend more time determining if the person is actually legit (where is the social proof?)

          That's why I run a blog at least. If I recommend some product on my blog and there are 2,000 daily RSS readers then people are more inclined to believe what I have to say than some long form sales letter they stumbled upon.

          2 cents
          @ Chris -- this is definitely true! They get the concept of branding and creating a network of people to continue the conversation. Building trust is definitely what it is all about.

          That is so true. It seems that no one is able to create an in depth system. I guess I need some hand-holding, but all the stuff I've learned has been pieced together from snippets of information from many gurus and Warrior Forum conversations. I think I finally have a workable plan to get my blog going.
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  • Profile picture of the author ckatheman
    The way I see it, and with my experience, this holds true, there are really only a few stumbling blocks to internet marketing:

    1. Not knowing where to start (or lack of technical expertise or internet 'savvy'). I only ran this above #2 because some base point of knowledge is required.

    2. Failure to take action. I have found that most of the 'guru' techniques have merit - even the regurgitated stuff that ends up in 95% of the PLR/MRR crap out there. If you take any 'system' and take some action on it, you'll likely see some results, and pass or fail, at least you will know where you stand on a given method.

    3. Giving up after the first go-round doesn't succeed.

    4. Failing to scale up even mildly successful techniques you find.

    Really the whole thing is basic - find stuff that people want to buy and sell it to them. There are thousands of different ways to skin that cat, and you can find most of them just by subscribing to the war room.

    However on the guru products point:

    What is irritating, is that it's dead obvious is the only income some of these guys make is on selling the 'system' - and in many cases, it's clear they never used the system they are selling! Use common sense and don't pay a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Find
    Guru products are frustrating and crappy - Decode the rubbish and youll find the true gurus'
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    • Profile picture of the author troy23
      I think it depends on the niche you are in. Yes if you are looking for IM related products there is a good chance it will be the same old crap, repackaged in a new way.

      Outside of the IM niche though you can find good products. I've never had one complaint and I've sold a lot of ebooks and other products.
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  • Profile picture of the author createyouwealth
    What you just stated is very true Shane. If the individual gives away his/her best stuff then that tells you that they offer some solid content in their product. Freebies are definitely a way to build trust with people, but of course it needs to be some very good content. All the best.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
    I just had a quick look at all the "flaming" going on in the CB Wealth System thread in the Review section. Since I don't want to add to the non-review nature of that thread and the subject fits this one, I'll just post here.


    All I have is a simple question:

    If someone comes out with an honest, down-to-earth marketing product, doesn't make unrealistc promises about how much money you can make, doesn't hype it up beyond all reason etc., will anyone buy it?


    Won't you find yourself looking at the sales-page where you learn that the system you're about to buy takes a couple of months of hard work and then you'll get good results, thinking: "Hmm... with that other product, I could be making hundreds of dollars a day within a few days... should I really even bother with this one?"


    Will you ever buy/have you ever bought a non-hyped product?
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      If someone comes out with an honest, down-to-earth marketing product, doesn't make unrealistc promises about how much money you can make, doesn't hype it up beyond all reason etc., will anyone buy it?
      Sure. You won't sell as many, but you'll make sure you're only selling to people who have a chance to get some actual ROI out of it to begin with. But that's not entirely WHY most people who buy MMO products buy them. The fact is, just as some people are into racing who don't buy, build, or race themselves - IM and MMO operate like fandoms. There are people here for entertainment.

      Some sellers don't differentiate between the two audiences.

      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      Won't you find yourself looking at the sales-page where you learn that the system you're about to buy takes a couple of months of hard work and then you'll get good results, thinking: "Hmm... with that other product, I could be making hundreds of dollars a day within a few days... should I really even bother with this one?"
      Depends on a lot of things. If you're asking my personal opinion, I only shop for information I need. I try not to buy something that in itself, presents an opportunity I never heard of. Usually these are the over-hyped ones, because they have to sell the value of the CONCEPT too.

      If you only ever find information when you need it to solve a problem, you can be much more objective about the costs and ROI on those things, too.

      But when you're talking about people who are buying things for entertainment, they're always going to go for the hype, the bigger, the better, the faster, the more.

      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      Will you ever buy/have you ever bought a non-hyped product?
      I have bought several very utilitarian products, info and otherwise. The problem isn't the hype, but whether or not it's *deceptive* hype. Hype in and of itself isn't bad if the hype doesn't over-promise what can be delivered.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimG
      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      I just had a quick look at all the "flaming" going on in the CB Wealth System thread in the Review section. Since I don't want to add to the non-review nature of that thread and the subject fits this one, I'll just post here.


      All I have is a simple question:

      If someone comes out with an honest, down-to-earth marketing product, doesn't make unrealistc promises about how much money you can make, doesn't hype it up beyond all reason etc., will anyone buy it?


      Won't you find yourself looking at the sales-page where you learn that the system you're about to buy takes a couple of months of hard work and then you'll get good results, thinking: "Hmm... with that other product, I could be making hundreds of dollars a day within a few days... should I really even bother with this one?"


      Will you ever buy/have you ever bought a non-hyped product?
      Will a product like that sell....sure, but the numbers will never be as high as an overhyped product but...and this is a key point, every time you release a high quality product you obtain a few new customers and your existing customers will become repeat buyers at a much higher rate.

      I view the releasing of high quality products every few months with no fanfare or hype almost similar to list building only you truly are building a relationship with your buyers instead of merely building a list for the sake of having a list. This almost always guarantees your product will sale to your small but growing number of buyers.

      There are some marketers who have the ability to create and launch a quality product every month but by and large most do not, so they end up promoting other people's products which may or may not be quality material.

      Of course, both methods are profitable but at some point the maker of the high quality products will eventually overtake the pimper of low quality products.

      Respectfully,
      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author affhelper
        The key is:

        Combine hype, high quality product, overdelivery, and strong guarantee
        and you got a winner

        High quality product - Quality product to some is garbage to others.
        If you are targeting newbies and a bunch advanced marketers buy
        your product they will say it sucks. Now tell me this isn't true?

        Obviously this works for "make money" products.

        No need for hype at all when you sell in any other market, really.
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    • Profile picture of the author Victoralexon
      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      All I have is a simple question:

      If someone comes out with an honest, down-to-earth marketing product, doesn't make unrealistc promises about how much money you can make, doesn't hype it up beyond all reason etc., will anyone buy it?
      I'm no expert and I've heard that with Internet marketing launches, products sell a lot in the first 24 hours and then the sales slow down a lot.

      But I think you need to have a more long term view, you're creating a sustainable business right?
      If you are selling a good and honest product you may not sell that many in the first 24 hours, but you will have made a name for yourself as a reliable and good salesman that knows his stuff and therefore, people will come back for more.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimWicked
    It's because of those marketers and the kind of "products" that they have been promoting lately that I have finally decided to join this forum.
    The quality and "real life" experience found in here always seems to surpass most offerings found in my email inbox!
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    • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
      Originally Posted by TimWicked View Post

      It's because of those marketers and the kind of "products" that they have been promoting lately that I have finally decided to join this forum.
      The quality and "real life" experience found in here always seems to surpass most offerings found in my email inbox!
      Ditto on that, Tim. Lately, my emails from promoters seem to consist of sales letters that rival "Gone With the Wind" in length, or sales videos that are longer than the Star Wars series. I've gotten to where my eyes glaze over, and I exit. Then I come here to locate some products and information that will truly benefit my bottom line. And I well understand that hard work and time are key elements to those benefits.
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  • Profile picture of the author pube12
    This is a great thread. No doubt there's some understandable cynicism about the gurus, but the fact is I've found a TON of unbelievable information in the products of "the gurus".

    The best bet is to ask others before purchasing. There's a really good thread on "what gurus do you follow" if you can find it.
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    • Profile picture of the author marlon
      Hi,

      If you're talking about:

      Russ Brunson
      Yanik Silver
      Lee Mcintyre
      Eben Pagan
      Jeff Johnson
      Ryan Deiss
      Kirt Christensen
      Jeff Walker
      Anik Singal
      Joe Vitale
      Pat O'Brien
      Jason Fladlien
      James Jones
      David Frey
      Jonathan Mizel
      Declan Dunn
      Ewen Chia
      Armand Morin
      John Reese
      Kevin Wilke
      Matt Gill

      I know all those guys. Most I'm friends with. A few I just know casually.
      They are ALL studs. Every one is somewhere between bright and brilliant, hard working, talented as all get out and someone you'd WISH you didn't compete with but love talking to.

      There are other "gurus" I know who deserve to be on the list but they
      aren't maybe as close as friends. And I'm sure I forgot a few.

      But REALLY, seriously, if you're complaining about any of the above
      dudes, I do NOT get it.

      These guys bust their tail ends to produce great products, do tons of research to come up with new killer ideas and so forth. I can't even
      begin to explain how much effort you have to put into things to play
      the Game at that level.

      Now, if you're talking about people who aren't on this list, then maybe
      there are cases the complaints are deserved. Still man, most all the
      products I buy today are so awesome compared to the few tidbits I
      had to learn from.

      Oh, Jay Abraham goes on this list but I only knew his daughter Michelle
      in the past. Michelle is awesome.

      Marlon
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  • Profile picture of the author TimG
    Marlon,
    From my viewpoint those marketers aren't the folks I had in mind but honestly I don't have products by all of them so I really couldn't comment on what they have created because that should be a prerequisite (ownership of a product) before anyone can make a complaint.

    I do think many of the common complaints stem from a series of events:

    1 - Advanced marketer buys a new product but finds out it is too basic for them regardless of what the salesletter promised.

    2 - Rookie marketer buys a new product and finds out that it is too advanced for them despite what the salesletter promised.

    Somewhere in between those two realities is a happy marketer which is where I believe most products are targeted towards.

    Of course, the two issues I pointed out are easily solved:

    1 - Advanced marketer might need to avoid lower priced products that appear to be overly flashy and stick with moderately higher priced products where it is more likely that a merchant might share there intimate strategies/details based on the higher ticket price as the barrier to entry.

    2 - Rookie marketer buys their product through an affiliate that actually uses the product they recommend so that the rookie marketer can seek them out for additional help and guidance in order to prevent from becoming overwhelmed.

    Respectfully,
    Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author trinnapat
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author netkid
      My viewpoint is, absorb any and all guru's sales pitches and sales funnels. "Success leaves clues." I love getting the emails and going to the sales pages. It's market research that "comes to me!" I study the opt-in, sales page, oto, upsell, downsell, everything...it's priceless...who said you had to buy everything? Who said you have to look at it negatively?

      And I also take in all my "snail junk mail" at the mail box too. Everything we see and receive should be "free" lessons on what marketing is today.

      Nobody said you have to BUY all that is being sold to you.

      Turn it around and you will reap success by tweaking and modeling their techniques. Keep in what you feel is good marketing and out with the cheesy stuff.
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