How about a "premium" WSO forum?

174 replies
WSO is so flooded with the lower-end get-rich-quick type offers, that it's hard to find the kind of stuff I'd like to buy.

Maybe this already exists (in which case I missed it) but I'd like to see a parallel WSO with more of a moderated / sticky philosophy -- a forum where tool-vendors like myself, or the higher-end info-product creators can put their best stuff on sale for the benefit of all Warriors...

Maybe the price could be higher.... or maybe it could just be moderated...

Thoughts?

- Rick
#forum #premium #wso
  • Profile picture of the author PaulaC
    Great idea in theory but the only problem with that is who decides if a product is good or not and whether it is deserving enough to go into the 'Premium' section?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Coleman
      I know where you're coming from, but that would be a massive amount of work for the mods here. They would have to read thousands of WSO's and evaluate each. Yikes. And remember, the mods are also busy running their own businesses.

      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author RickRaddatz
    I hear ya about the work involved.... but heck, I'd pay $100 just to be evaluated and $1k or more if approved for such a premium listing knowing I'd only be with good company. I can't think of a better market to market to.
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    • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
      Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

      I hear ya about the work involved.... but heck, I'd pay $100 just to be evaluated and $1k or more if approved for such a premium listing knowing I'd only be with good company. I can't think of a better market to market to.
      This is actually a pretty cool idea.

      I think whoever is willing to pay the premium listing fee would qualify their offer as premium. There wouldn't need to be a selection process because the WSO owners would do it themselves (by paying the fee).

      It could actually work
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

      I hear ya about the work involved.... but heck, I'd pay $100 just to be evaluated and $1k or more if approved for such a premium listing knowing I'd only be with good company. I can't think of a better market to market to.
      Glad you would pay, but most won't - for good reason.

      I offered a Warrior Verified service where for less than a hundred bucks you could get an official logo and stamp of approval from my law office that your WSO has been reviewed and claims have been verified to be true.

      It was something I was willing to do for the forum, even though spending whatever time it took to verify a WSO is obviously not that economical for me, especially compared to my legal rates.

      You can do a search and find the raving requests for such a service from WSO BUYERS.

      Not many takers from WSO SELLERS.

      Why?

      Because those WSO claims you read about making money are complete B.S.

      The last thing they want is to be verified.

      And, a related problem, many simply can't afford a hundred bucks to be reviewed.

      That's why they're running a WSO - because they read it is an easy way to make some money.

      The truth is, I could make a lot more money suing bogus WSO sellers than verifying the legitimate ones.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        And another thing ...

        I seriously doubt that Allen could easily get approval from a legal eagle to run a moderated, premium WSO section.

        Not that Allen needs my approval, of course, but there are liability issues involved.

        It's one thing for someone like me to stick their neck out and verify something because that is part of what my legal practice involves. I can also handle myself.

        It is quite another for a forum owner to risk liability because some moderator does a bad job on a 'here is how much money you will make' WSO.


        It is also not an issue of 'price' that makes something premium, valuable, or trustworthy. Without naming names, I promise you there are big-time products that have been sold, and some big-names in IM-land, which are utterly and completely fraudulent.

        The money making claims are false. The story is false. The pictures are false. The names are false. The testimonials are false.

        I'm not just talking about 1 of these problems existing as sometimes, unbelievably, everything about a product is false.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I think it would be a great money maker for the forum owners. Problem is what if you pay the entry fee and are not approve? The standards would be very high and listing fee expensive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I think it's a well-intentioned idea, but one that would have unforeseen consequences.

    The main problem I see with it is that it removes the onus of due diligence from the buyer. Think about it this way, someone buys a "Super WSO" and still doesn't like it. Guess who gets the blame? The seller? Nope. The WSO moderator who approved the WSO? Yep.

    Is the WSO section perfect? No, but it's still one of the best online marketplaces around.

    If one's products are truly better--a cut above--then let them compete in the full marketplace. After all, with all of the "junk" in there, a really good offer would naturally stand out and get the attention it deserves, right?

    If not, then the only thing being created with a Super WSO is a system where more successful marketers can shut out those who are only beginning, and to me, that goes against the spirit of the Warrior Forum as I understand it.

    That being said, I dont fault the OP or others for coming up with new ideas. There may be practical ways to make the WSO better, but I don't think this particular suggestion is one of them.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


      If one's products are truly better--a cut above--then let them compete in the full marketplace. After all, with all of the "junk" in there, a really good offer would naturally stand out and get the attention it deserves, right?

      All the best,
      Michael
      I beg to differ on this bit

      Unfortunately the fact of life is if the predominant offer is cheap mush, the WSO section will attract mostly people who buy cheap mush...

      The Premium section would only mostly attract people who want to pay for quality products.

      For instance LFM with a multi licence is $997, a good WSO offer of half price, which is an extreemly good offer and a cut way above whats in their normally wouldn't do well because the WSO section is frequented by people expecting it for $20

      I'm assuming Rick is talking about such premium products, those that will never be offered to warriors because the present WSO section is viewed as a $1 store

      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Rick,

        Some problems...

        Who knows all the aspects of the market well enough to make those judgements accurately?

        How many chargebacks would there be based on offers being disapproved?

        How do you avoid the idea on the part of the visitor that it's "WF Endorsed?" Unless you think we can get Allen to do the reviews, which is... umm... unlikely.

        Now, here's one I would not only support but actively promote: A section for higher priced products that cost a whole lot more to advertise in. Hell, with the right terms for posting, I'd moderate it myself. Almost no-one would go for those terms, though: Voice-verification based on a listed phone number and address, which would be included in the offer. A 100% 60-day guarantee that was enforceable by the buyer. I'd have to think about the other aspects.

        And they'd involve a "We can refuse any offer for any reason, including that we just don't like you" terms.

        It's a minefield, though. And it would be slow, since reviews would take time beyond what most people would be willing to wait for approval.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Rick,

          Some problems...

          Who knows all the aspects of the market well enough to make those judgements accurately?

          How many chargebacks would there be based on offers being disapproved?

          How do you avoid the idea on the part of the visitor that it's "WF Endorsed?" Unless you think we can get Allen to do the reviews, which is... umm... unlikely.

          Now, here's one I would not only support but actively promote: A section for higher priced products that cost a whole lot more to advertise in. Hell, with the right terms for posting, I'd moderate it myself. Almost no-one would go for those terms, though: Voice-verification based on a listed phone number and address, which would be included in the offer. A 100% 60-day guarantee that was enforceable by the buyer. I'd have to think about the other aspects.

          And they'd involve a "We can refuse any offer for any reason, including that we just don't like you" terms.

          It's a minefield, though. And it would be slow, since reviews would take time beyond what most people would be willing to wait for approval.


          Paul
          Where do we sign up? How can we help you make this happen?
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Lotter
        its not the worst idea I've ever heard, but it would probably devalue the current WSO forum and we wouldn't want that.

        The WSO forum is the best IM marketplace on the web and we'd like to keep it that way.

        Besides, you can easily see which WSO's are ''premium'' top quality stuff by the number of views they're getting and by the reviews that other Warrors post.

        Trust me, from what I've seen, Warriors don't suffer fools easily and if somebody puts up a crappy WSO, you'd quickly find out about it! I'd hate to get bad reviews on my WSO's and I think that goes for everybody, so for the most part every WSO is something of very good value as the product creators don't want to get a bad rep on the 'net's best marketplace.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Nick,
          its not the worst idea I've ever heard, but it would probably devalue the current WSO forum and we wouldn't want that.
          That is not an effect that would occur in real life. If the price point was high enough, it would have no effect at all.

          As far as page views or comments being an indication of what is good or not, forget it. That's too easily faked.

          You would not believe the things people will do to get access to this marketplace...


          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

        I beg to differ on this bit

        Unfortunately the fact of life is if the predominant offer is cheap mush, the WSO section will attract mostly people who buy cheap mush...

        The Premium section would only mostly attract people who want to pay for quality products.

        For instance LFM with a multi licence is $997, a good WSO offer of half price, which is an extreemly good offer and a cut way above whats in their normally wouldn't do well because the WSO section is frequented by people expecting it for $20

        I'm assuming Rick is talking about such premium products, those that will never be offered to warriors because the present WSO section is viewed as a $1 store

        Robert
        Then you, as an expert marketer, should easily be able to find a solution.

        I'm hearing a lot of subtext from those who support the idea. And I think Kay and I are on the same page in that aspect. It sounds like some people are just, well, whining about how unfair it is that they can't get sales for their higher end products.

        Hogwash!

        So, they are saying there are too many low-priced offers, or that visitors to the WSO section aren't willing to spend all that much. Great! Sounds to me like you have a good idea of what the market is like. MEET THE MARKET WHERE THEY ARE. Then get them into your funnel. Offer a lower priced product and move them up.

        The fact that some people come across as being afraid to compete makes me wonder. My gut feeling is...compete like every other Warrior and stop trying to make yourselves some sort of special, elite class.

        Also, my best guess is that you would get a few initial viewers to the premium WSO listings, but once they saw how much the otems cost, you wouldn't get very much bang for your buck, if any.

        Why? Because it's not "viewers of the WSO" section that expect a good deal, it's "members of the Warrior Forum", if that makes sense.

        On the other hand, a premium section could very well be a dream for the "normal" WSO section. How? By comparing value priced offers to their higher priced counterparts. "Don't spend $997 on _____, get the same thing for $167"; that kind of thing.

        Still, removing due diligence from the buyer and putting it on somebody else is opening a can of worms. While the person approving any product may think it's worthy, that doesn't mean the buyers will agree. People have different expectations, AND levels of understanding. In other words, say a premium WSO mod understands how the product works, and sees the value in it BECAUSE they are at a more advanced level, but the buyer is fairly new...in this case the product is probably good, but the buyer has no use for it because it's way over thier heads. Does that make it the buyer's fault for not knowing enough? Maybe. But I can tell you who the buyer will blame.

        And, what about coaching programs, copywriting, services, subscriptions, or products where new material is part of the value?

        Anyway, I don't like the idea, but it's not for me to decide. Just adding my $0.02, or $997 as the case may be.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          I'm hearing a lot of subtext from those who support the idea. And I think Kay and I are on the same page in that aspect. It sounds like some people are just, well, whining about how unfair it is that they can't get sales for their higher end products.


          All the best,
          Michael
          If it came over that way then I apologise...

          My point was And i'm going to make it about me so hopefully you can realate


          I would never go into a dollar store wouldnt matter what products were in there, because i would equate dollar store with cheap stuff

          I would go to a premium store to buy everything, I buy designer tools

          I wouldnt want to even look around in a dollar store even if i was told I could buy the same thing for a dollar as i had just bought in the premium store for $100

          Dollar stores tend to attract mostly people who only have a dollar to spend

          Those who have bigger budgets tend to shop in premium stores

          I would be one of those people actually buying things in the premium wso section, not looking to get my high priced products in there

          And I'm pretty sure thats where Rick is coming from

          I dont want to wade through a shop full of plastic gnomes just to find the one or two hand carved stone ones at the back of the shop

          Robert
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            If it came over that way then I apologise...

            My point was And i'm going to make it about me so hopefully you can realate


            I would never go into a dollar store wouldnt matter what products were in there, because i would equate dollar store with cheap stuff

            I would go to a premium store to buy everything, I buy designer tools

            I wouldnt want to even look around in a dollar store even if i was told I could buy the same thing for a dollar as i had just bought in the premium store for $100

            Dollar stores tend to attract mostly people who only have a dollar to spend

            Those who have bigger budgets tend to shop in premium stores

            I would be one of those people actually buying things in the premium wso section, not looking to get my high priced products in there

            And I'm pretty sure thats where Rick is coming from

            I dont want to wade through a shop full of plastic gnomes just to find the one or two hand carved stone ones at the back of the shop

            Robert
            No need to apologize, Robert.

            I think I'm seeing where the disconnect is coming in. You are seeing the WSO section as one big store, and I am seeing it as a mall made up of many stores.

            I still don't like the idea because for every problem it solves, a new problem is created.

            The only thing that could really be sold in a pre-reviewed section are products that are ready to go. So, that automatically eliminates a ton of sellers.

            Let everybody compete at the same level. Do high-quality offers get buried in the mix sometimes? Of course. BUT the REALLY BAD ones get buried even faster.

            I seriously doubt the benefit of a premium listing is as great as some people ar assuming. And the proof is in their own remarks. Warriors are looking for low-priced offers, so how many buyers would even visit a premium section? Plus, there ARE higher priced WSOs that seem to do just fine.

            Ultimately, it would be setting up a system that's based on a buy-in instead of being based on reputation. Perhaps that's the biggest problem of all: the ability to BUY perceived status. Sorry, but that isn't what the Warrior Forum is all about in my book.

            All the best,
            Michael
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          • Profile picture of the author Jimmy Reilly
            We should let the market decide who gets to become a 'super WSO'. Users who purchased a normal WSO vote for the WSO if it is good With enough votes the owner of the WSO gets an email with a link to pay for a premium listing. The more votes the WSO gets, the higher it goes in the super forum. I would also weigh newer votes heavier than older votes so older out dated WSO's get pushed back. This gives owners of Premium WSO's an incentive to update their products and get more votes.
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
              Originally Posted by Reilly472 View Post

              We should let the market decide who gets to become a 'super WSO'. Users who purchased a normal WSO vote for the WSO if it is good With enough votes the owner of the WSO gets an email with a link to pay for a premium listing. The more votes the WSO gets, the higher it goes in the super forum. I would also weigh newer votes heavier than older votes so older out dated WSO's get pushed back. This gives owners of Premium WSO's an incentive to update their products and get more votes.
              Wouldn't work.
              You would have the BS packing trolls teaming up to game the system by posting false votes.

              Have a Great Day!
              Michael

              PS. See Paul, I was listening earlier.
              Thanks!
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              • Profile picture of the author Jimmy Reilly
                Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

                Wouldn't work.
                You would have the BS packing trolls teaming up to game the system by posting false votes.

                Have a Great Day!
                Michael

                PS. See Paul, I was listening earlier.
                Thanks!
                There has to be a way to moderate the votes, require proof of purchase, limit the number of votes a user has, require a certain number of posts to vote.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            I dont want to wade through a shop full of plastic gnomes just to find the one or two hand carved stone ones at the back of the shop

            Robert
            My thoughts exactly.

            As a buyer, I don't want to scroll through a dozen WSO pages to find a new piece of software that I need for my business. I don't have the patience or the TIME to do it.

            I'd love to see the WSO forum add some subcategories for software and tools, that would be a huge help to buyers.

            I suspect sellers of software, scripts, and tools would like being grouped with similar offerings instead of thrown into the collective WSO pile where their offering gets lost in the sea of 'make money' info-products already floating in there.

            I know the Warriors For Hire sub-section has been really helpful when I needed to hire a graphic designer or a programmer. I think a few subcategories for the WSO would have a similiar effect.

            Food for thought,

            Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      If one's products are truly better--a cut above--then let them compete in the full marketplace. After all, with all of the "junk" in there, a really good offer would naturally stand out and get the attention it deserves, right?
      Unfortunately, not necessarily true. Sadly, most of the stuff that sells like
      hot cakes is the stuff with the insane subject lines of oodles of money in
      some ridiculous time frame.

      So the quality product and offer would be competing with all the hype.

      And from my 7 plus years of experience in IM, hype wins.

      Sorry, but I have seen very few examples (think DLGuard as one) that
      are the exception to the rule.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        For those of you who are wondering how to compete in the current WSO
        forum, it's really very simple.

        Step 1 - Come out with a line of quality products.

        Step 2 - Make them a very limited run (X units or days)

        Step 3 - Sell them at a very fair price.

        Step 4 - Upon delivery confirmation, offer the customer the option of
        opting into a list in order to be the first one to hear about your next offer.

        Step 5 - Send the next offer to your list of satisfied buyers.

        You won't need the WSO section anymore if you do this.
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          For those of you who are wondering how to compete in the current WSO
          forum, it's really very simple.

          Step 1 - Come out with a line of quality products.

          Step 2 - Make them a very limited run (X units or days)

          Step 3 - Sell them at a very fair price.

          Step 4 - Upon delivery confirmation, offer the customer the option of
          opting into a list in order to be the first one to hear about your next offer.

          Step 5 - Send the next offer to your list of satisfied buyers.

          You won't need the WSO section anymore if you do this.
          I'm pretty sure Rick (nor I) was talking about competeing in the WSO from Steven

          were talking about being able to find those hand carved stone gnomes in amongst all those plastic ones

          We would like to just go straight to the hand carved stone gnome forum, and not have to look at the plastic ones at all
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            I'm pretty sure Rick (nor I) was talking about competeing in the WSO from Steven

            were talking about being able to find those hand carved stone gnomes in amongst all those plastic ones

            We would like to just go straight to the hand carved stone gnome forum, and not have to look at the plastic ones at all
            Thanks Robert, but my reply was not directed to you. It was directed to
            the lesser experienced members of this forum who want to compete in the
            WSO forum as it is.

            That's how you do it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Like I said in a previous post, if you want to buy a product, see the REVIEWS about it!
              Good advice, if you add a caveat: Don't believe any review from anyone you're not familiar with. Which makes it much less "simple."

              A lot of ideas get tossed around here that sound really good, but fail to account for the determination of scammers, or just the tendency of some folks to nibble at the edges of what's allowed.

              Honest people make up the overwhelming majority of any society, in my experience. It's also my experience that scammers depend on folks counting on that, and are much more active in their pursuits. And they're like gamblers. They'll do anything for that feeling of having gotten one over on someone.

              Until you've had to deal with them, you probably have no idea just how vicious and persistent these creatures can be. That's why a rating system has always been so readily dismissed. If it's gameable, these creeps will try to game it.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                That's why a rating system has always been so readily dismissed. If it's gameable, these creeps will try to game it.
                What about a rating system that would only allow purchasers the ability to
                rate the product?

                Just thinking a loud again.

                Have a Great Day!
                Michael
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Good advice, if you add a caveat: Don't believe any review from anyone you're not familiar with. Which makes it much less "simple."
                I have a handful of friends on WF. What if reviews from my WF friends appeared in a different color in forum posts (which would include the WSO forum) so that I can easily spot them?

                Don't know if that's possible, but that could be a handy feature. People could easily spot the reviews from people they are friends with on here.

                Would be cool too if threads started by friends were highlighted in the listings.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
    Having a Premium WSO section is a good idea but is a
    bit impractical because of the increased workload it
    places on the moderators.

    However...

    I'd be in favor of a 2nd WSO forum that has a higher
    price for listing - say $50 or $100... as that would filter
    out some of the dross and have higher number of quality
    listings.

    Or alternatively, just increase the listing price for the
    current WSO forum!

    Dedicated to your success,

    Shaun
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post


      Or alternatively, just increase the listing price for the
      current WSO forum!
      That's happened in the past - it used to be free remember?

      Putting up the price won't remove the problem - it didn't in the past.
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      nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        That's happened in the past - it used to be free remember?

        Putting up the price won't remove the problem - it didn't in the past.
        It depends upon how much the price is increased to.

        Going from free to $20 per listing is not much of a
        difference to most people.

        However, if a separate WSO section with a $100 fee
        is charged per listing that would knock out some of
        the jokers who can barely scrape together the $20
        at the moment. (So how good is their WSO information
        then!).

        There would still be a number of poor listings of course
        - regardless of the listing fee - but the total number
        would be reduced significantly.

        Dedicated to your success,

        Shaun
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
          I totally disgree with you, i run lots of WSOs and mine are not dross, as i have lots of regular customers with very few refunds, i am not a joker and my listings are not rubbish.

          As i sell my products cheaply and limit the quantity i personally couldnt afford to pay $100 for an ad.

          That doesnt make my product or me bad and someone payinging $100 for an ad doesnt make them or their product any better it just means they have more money to throw at the advertising than others.

          Personally if this happened i think it would be worst thing to happen to WF.

          I dont like the idea of some people being more elite than others.

          Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

          It depends upon how much the price is increased to.

          Going from free to $20 per listing is not much of a
          difference to most people.

          However, if a separate WSO section with a $100 fee
          is charged per listing that would knock out some of
          the jokers who can barely scrape together the $20
          at the moment. (So how good is their WSO information
          then!).

          There would still be a number of poor listings of course
          - regardless of the listing fee - but the total number
          would be reduced significantly.

          Dedicated to your success,

          Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author Linda Sweetfield
        I like the idea of this, however I do see the myriad of problems it would cause plus the administrative headaches.

        At the end of the day, like everything, the market is the leveller. Good WSOs rise, the dross doesnt.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Andy,
          How can we help you make this happen?
          It won't, unless Allen says it happens. The "Warrior" thing is his property, and that's the first consideration.

          Shaun,
          However, if a separate WSO section with a $100 fee is charged per listing that would knock out some of the jokers who can barely scrape together the $20 at the moment.
          Having dealt with this stuff in the past, I can tell you it would have to be a minimum of $250. If you're talking about any kind of review by a skilled person, that's the low end of the cost.

          And the scammers can often put together as much as they need to get the appropriate imprimatur.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author santosm
            Hey Rick,

            Hmm, interesting idea. Bear in mind though that WSO means Warrior Special Offer. Most members are looking for that bargain when they go looking in the WSO Forum and they do have a budget. Low-end products or not, you still have a choice which ones you buy and which ones you don't.

            For members who can afford to buy the premium products and more importantly "want" that premium product...well they are just as happy to go straight to the sales page and buy directly from there. Those in this category wouldnt quibble about saving a few dollars.

            Also as PaulaC mentioned.. "what determines a premium product". Sellers of the premium product of course are naturally going to say that their product is premium, why...because of the Ticket Price?? Anybody could slap on a high price and call it premium.

            Therefore to determine whether it is premium on or not, the approving mods would have to read or trial the product to determine its worthiness....who has time for that?....And who would take the blame for an approved product if it fails to meet buyers expectations.

            As I said, interesting idea, but looks like a lot of work and has the potential to get messy.

            Cheers Marianne
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by santosm View Post

              For members who can afford to buy the premium products and more importantly "want" that premium product...well they are just as happy to go straight to the sales page and buy directly from there. Those in this category wouldnt quibble about saving a few dollars.
              I wouldn't refuse a 50% discount of $250, $500, etc. either if the opportunity presented itself at the right time.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                While I can understand the desire for a "Premium WSO" type section, and would even welcome one, I just gotta say...

                The WSO forum is genius on so many levels. From a business standpoint, it's a thing of beauty. A relatively well oiled machine. It's not hard to see why Allen doesn't go around making changes all the time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                  Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                  The WSO forum is genius on so many levels. From a business standpoint, it's a thing of beauty. A relatively well oiled machine. It's not hard to see why Allen doesn't go around making changes all the time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
                  That pretty much sums it up for me. Also, the changes that Paul and the other mods are now implementing and those they're proposing will only serve to improve the forum still further, IMO.

                  Let's wait and see how things pan out over the next few months.

                  In any event, Rick, it's good to see you posting. Now that you've dipped your toe back in, don't be a stranger . The main board could do with more regular input from marketers of your experience and caliber.


                  Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author dwinland
                    Looking at the WSO from two perspectives: the buyer's and the marketer's...

                    From a buyer's perspective it is very difficult to wade through all the flotsam to find quality products that I am specifically looking for. If we are creating a "wish list," what I would love to see is some type of category system enabling me to easily find products. Search helps some...but I imagine categories would better able to target specifics.

                    Secondly, to find quality. A rating system (perhaps similar to Amazon) would be effective, in my opinion. Yes the views and comment stats are helpful, but not the most accurate indicator of quality.

                    Now from a marketer's perspective, I would expect my top-notch product, if it is really is quality, to be able to find prominent positioning (like cream rising to the top). So, the solution for buyers is the same for marketers: a category and rating system.

                    With the rating system, marketer's could be rewarded for producing quality, true-value products by giving them prominence.

                    Just a couple of thoughts.

                    Darren
                    BamaMarketer
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                When those regular products were offered here 50% discount was the least you would find.

                Think about it - you have a great new software product that will sell for $97 to the open market (with a 50% affiliate payout). You sell it here for 1-3 days only for $27. It IS a good product and buyers here like it.

                How many blogs feature your product in the next week or two? I would guess you'd have many more GOOD affiliates from here than you'd find at CB for a new product....and some good reviews to use, too.

                We used to see those deals here every day. In fact, if you didn't visit the WF till evening you might have missed out on an 8 hour sale!

                kay
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          • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Shaun,Having dealt with this stuff in the past, I can tell you it would have to be a minimum of $250. If you're talking about any kind of review by a skilled person, that's the low end of the cost.

            And the scammers can often put together as much as they need to get the appropriate imprimatur.

            Paul
            I didn't mean that the $100 listing fee would be to cover
            a skilled review or additional input via WSO moderators
            over and above what they do already.

            Rather that a $100 (or whatever) listing fee would act as
            a filter to get rid of at least some of the dross.

            Yes - some scammers and jokers would still get through
            the net but at least some of the dross would be eliminated
            via the higher fee without any further burden on the WSO
            moderators.

            Dedicated to your success,

            Shaun
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Shaun,

              Without the review factor, it's just the same as raising the price on WSOs, which is a non-starter. All the scammers have the money to pay it, while not everyone who's offering a legit service does at the start.


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            • Profile picture of the author Dave d
              Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

              I didn't mean that the $100 listing fee would be to cover
              a skilled review or additional input via WSO moderators
              over and above what they do already.

              Rather that a $100 (or whatever) listing fee would act as
              a filter to get rid of at least some of the dross.

              Yes - some scammers and jokers would still get through
              the net but at least some of the dross would be eliminated
              via the higher fee without any further burden on the WSO
              moderators.

              Dedicated to your success,

              Shaun
              I have just had a funny thought. There are so many "I just made $10,000 in my sleep" WSO's so it would be interesting to see how many listings there would be if the listing fee was raised to eh lets say $5000 and $250 per bump.
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            • Profile picture of the author tehnolife
              Banned
              Let me tell why you think wrong!! You think that a higher fee will clear most of the scammers? WRONG. Will be the same amount or higher! Why? Because a scammer is a normal person , the diffrence is that he scam people's! And when the fee will be higher, they would think, that if they pay the fee, they will be legit!So, you will receive the same garbage, but on higher price!

              You can resolve , that, and receive good stuff, if you look on reviews!
              Yes, you can look on what the other members said! If many said , that the product is good, then go and buy it! If are bad reviews, don't buy it!

              It's so simple!




              Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

              I didn't mean that the $100 listing fee would be to cover
              a skilled review or additional input via WSO moderators
              over and above what they do already.

              Rather that a $100 (or whatever) listing fee would act as
              a filter to get rid of at least some of the dross.

              Yes - some scammers and jokers would still get through
              the net but at least some of the dross would be eliminated
              via the higher fee without any further burden on the WSO
              moderators.

              Dedicated to your success,

              Shaun
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Andy,It won't, unless Allen says it happens. The "Warrior" thing is his property, and that's the first consideration.

            Shaun,Having dealt with this stuff in the past, I can tell you it would have to be a minimum of $250. If you're talking about any kind of review by a skilled person, that's the low end of the cost.

            And the scammers can often put together as much as they need to get the appropriate imprimatur.


            Paul
            Well you have 3 people lined up for this me Rick and Andy
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    • Profile picture of the author theimdude
      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

      Having a Premium WSO section is a good idea but is a
      bit impractical because of the increased workload it
      places on the moderators.
      Shaun
      Not sure how this would be extra workload as to approve a product on CB you pay $50 and it is called work. So people approving the WSO should be paid as we are charged to have a WSO
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    The amount of WSOs has been going up for ages and it does always seem like there's not much chance of being noticed these days, but we also have these discussions periodically too about how to get better offers seen.

    The problem is - this is a moving target.

    The WSO used to just have great offers for great products that were a genuine bargain.

    We've "evolved" to the current situation based on more and more members coming here and telling each other running WSOs is the way to make money online.

    It's supply and demand.

    I don't think you can easily create a specially moderated section without people thinking that the forum endorses the product, which causes all sorts of new problems.

    We already see some of that with the WarriorPro system - which is nothing to do with the forum, but some people send out emails talking about how their offer 'won' the WSO of the day - thinking that's a WF endorsement rather than just the result of the fact that they ticked a revenue sharing box in the WP system - all completely unrelated to the WF itself.

    I can understand where you as a product vendor are coming from - you want to sell your stuff and it's now harder than it used to be to do it here.

    It'll be interesting to see a workable idea can be implemented.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave d
    Unfortunately I dont think a higher price to list a WSO in either a clasifieds or premium section is enough to deter scammers. Some scammers and people who just throw together rubbish products to make a quick buck are actually good at what they choose to do and actaully make good money this way.

    Why dont we just have a minimum amount of time and a minimum amount of posts before you can post a WSO. This obviously wont completely stop the scammers from getting in but it certainly would make it harder.

    At the moment I see 2 major problems.

    Somebody with ill intentions lurks around the WSO section for a few days and cooks up a plan to steal as much money as possible and I have seen threads where Warriors have been fleeced out of a lot of money.

    Second major problem is the guy above gets banned but the next day signs up under a different username and possibly a different ip address and implements part 2 of his plan steal as much money as possible.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickRaddatz
    yeah -- I can see how, if moderated, it would certainly create a LOT of negative energy towards that moderator when the moderator said 'no' to a person.

    So if this makes sense at all, it would need to be a price thing -- maybe even a bidding-thing (e.g. only the top 25 make it) "The Warrior Wall""

    Clearly this is up to Allen. Just saying I'd take part in it if it was there.
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    • Profile picture of the author stevecl
      Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

      yeah -- I can see how, if moderated, it would certainly create a LOT of negative energy towards that moderator when the moderator said 'no' to a person.

      So if this makes sense at all, it would need to be a price thing -- maybe even a bidding-thing (e.g. only the top 25 make it) "The Warrior Wall""

      Clearly this is up to Allen. Just saying I'd take part in it if it was there.
      I would think that each product would need to be reviewed by a panel of 3 to 5 people. They will decide yes or no for listing. Majority decison is final decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
    Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

    WSO is so flooded with the lower-end get-rich-quick type offers, that it's hard to find the kind of stuff I'd like to buy. - Rick
    Is the search function for the WSO's not working anymore?

    I'm asking because it sounds like you know the WSOs you are looking for are available. BUT, you can't find them due to having to wad through the quote," lower-end get-rich-quick type offers..."

    If your only issue is as you have stated, "having a hard time finding the stuff I'd like to buy," then why not:
    • adjust your search terms.
    • ask other Warriors for help in finding that product/service/tool
    • possibly start a thread to see if anyone has seen this type of product, tool or service on the WF in the WSO section.
    Overall, we have a great community here and if you ask, you will get an answer. If you seek, you will find.

    Giles, the Crew Chief
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      When this is proposed from the angle of "I can't get enough attention to my product" I don't like the idea.

      When you market a product to the public - you have competition. Why shouldn't you deal with competition here, too?

      I thought perhaps a section where products offered outside the WF (to the public) could be offered for a limited time might be a good idea. Some of the best ebooks and software used to be offered here when they launched. The Warrior price was great and the sellers picked up valuable affiliates, too. Some of those ran for only a few hours - none were unlimited time frames.

      But probably that would end up being a more expensive version of "made for WSO" products where seller puts up a sales page for a product only promoted on the WF.

      I don't care for the never-ending WSO's and unlimited WSO's per person at one time - but it's not my forum. Common sense tells me that someone with 5 WSO's running for five different "money makers" is making his money on the WF. Not like it's a secret or hard to find info.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Gladiator
    Having a Premium WSO section is a great idea! Hope that this will make it a hub for some really good products.

    Maybe it can help to get rid of all those emails from big Guru launches and keep it all here! At which time we can make a better informed purchases and not just hype!

    Maybe have it be that the Premium WSO has to be set up with ClickBank so that get rid of some issues some WSO have had in the past!

    With the current WSO section:
    Can we limit how many WSO's one person can have running at the same time. I see some people with 10 WSO running at one time! When I see that it makes me wonder that maybe their product is not so good!

    Why not have a voting system and if the WSO is not voted up it will be removed after it goes to second page.

    Warrior should have the freedom to say their opinion on any WSO and also call out the person holding the WSO if the person has previously screwed up some warriors in the past!

    I vote for a Premium WSO section and then I may hold a WSO myself.

    Andre
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  • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
    Ok, I had to go back and re-read the OPs original thoughts and when I did, BAM! Things became crystal clear.

    Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

    I'd like to see a parallel WSO with more of a moderated / sticky philosophy -- a forum where tool-vendors like myself, or the higher-end info-product creators can put their best stuff on sale for the benefit of all Warriors...
    So what the OP is essentially saying is that he wants an advantage over the competition and he's willing to pay extra money in order to get it.

    In his thinking, the competition is someway and somehow making it harder for high end products to be found by buyers who are seeking high end products and services.

    In his suggested system, the new setup would somehow make it easier to find vendors such as his self.

    Is that a correct assessment?

    Giles, the Crew Chief
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I like at least some version of the idea. Have a WSO section and a WPO (Warrior Premium Offers) section. People have to do their due dilligence no matter what. For some people losing $20 to a scam is the same as losing $500 to a scam. There could be the clear standard disclaimer that WF is not endorsing or vouching for any offer.

    I also think it would help in the WSO to either set up sub-categories or require some kind of standard titles. It is nearly impossible to find what your looking for with all the "clever" marketing. You click on a dozen things since you can't really tell what they are offering or you go page after page until you find something that looks relevant. It would be nice if there were sub-categories like Traffic, Software, Websites,... or whaterver...
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      How about for an extra $50 or $100 letting advertisers add a "[PREMIUM OFFER]" tag at the beginning of their thread title.

      Then they'll stick out a little bit and/or people can just use the advanced search function to search for "[PREMIUM OFFER]".

      There could then also be a rule made disallowing the use of [] at the beginning of any other WSO threads.

      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Rough Draft
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        For instance LFM with a multi licence is $997, a good WSO offer of half price, which is an extreemly good offer and a cut way above whats in their normally wouldn't do well because the WSO section is frequented by people expecting it for $20
        While that is a good offer - we also must consider the makeup of this forum has changed over the years.

        The "new marketers" now make up a much larger part of the forum and that may be the reason for the changes in the WSO section.

        In any case, all the suggestions are academic rambling - as we don't decide how Allen runs his forum

        kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        How about for an extra $50 or $100 letting advertisers add a "[PREMIUM OFFER]" tag at the beginning of their thread title.

        Then they'll stick out a little bit and/or people can just use the advanced search function to search for "[PREMIUM OFFER]".

        There could then also be a rule made disallowing the use of [] at the beginning of any other WSO threads.

        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        Rough Draft
        Maybe there is some difference here in what constitutes a premium offer

        I'm talking about products out there on the internet like ricks instant teleseminar service that was never produced just to run a WSO

        which by the way was its original intention
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      • Profile picture of the author JEL0221
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        How about for an extra $50 or $100 letting advertisers add a "[PREMIUM OFFER]" tag at the beginning of their thread title.

        Then they'll stick out a little bit and/or people can just use the advanced search function to search for "[PREMIUM OFFER]".

        There could then also be a rule made disallowing the use of [] at the beginning of any other WSO threads.

        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        Rough Draft

        I would like to see an even higher amount required for a premium offering...something like $250.00 like mentioned before.

        This makes the warrior providing the offer look much more serious in their offer, and will also somewhat weed out some of the BS...although I understand you cannot completely get rid of all the scams and shoddy re-hashed products in there.

        Some people may say that with a price tag of $250 they would not be able to afford it.

        Well, if the method has been working so good for you, then certainly it cannot be a problem forking over the $250 for a premium listing. Right?

        Especially if you are claiming you have experienced overnight riches using a certain method or product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

    WSO is so flooded with the lower-end get-rich-quick type offers, that it's hard to find the kind of stuff I'd like to buy.

    Maybe this already exists (in which case I missed it) but I'd like to see a parallel WSO with more of a moderated / sticky philosophy -- a forum where tool-vendors like myself, or the higher-end info-product creators can put their best stuff on sale for the benefit of all Warriors...

    Maybe the price could be higher.... or maybe it could just be moderated...

    Thoughts?

    - Rick
    I would love to see something come of this suggestion. Unfortunately, the quality of the WSO offerings seems to have been going downhill in recent years.

    Will
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Will Edwards View Post

      I would love to see something come of this suggestion. Unfortunately, the quality of the WSO offerings seems to have been going downhill in recent years.

      Will
      Maybe as a whole, that's possible, but I'm not convinced.

      Plus, as I keep learning more, I KNOW the quality of MY WSO offerings continues to improve.

      Personally, I'm sick and fed up with the idea that because I sell in the WSO section, my stuff must be somehow inferior. Nobody has come out and said that directly, but it has been implied several times.

      Folks, don't buy into the nonsense of "the WSOs are now garbage", it's insulting, and incorrect.

      Oh, and by the way, I got taken for $400 on a WSO about 2 years ago, so stop giving us BS about "how bad it is now". Phooey!

      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Maybe as a whole, that's possible, but I'm not convinced.

        Plus, as I keep learning more, I KNOW the quality of MY WSO offerings continues to improve.

        Personally, I'm sick and fed up with the idea that because I sell in the WSO section, my stuff must be somehow inferior. Nobody has come out and said that directly, but it has been implied several times.

        Folks, don't buy into the nonsense of "the WSOs are now garbage", it's insulting, and incorrect.

        Oh, and by the way, I got taken for $400 on a WSO about 2 years ago, so stop giving us BS about "how bad it is now". Phooey!

        Michael
        You are, of course, excepted from the generalisation as indeed are a good many other Warriors.

        Will
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Now, here's one I would not only support but actively promote: A section for higher priced products that cost a whole lot more to advertise in. Hell, with the right terms for posting, I'd moderate it myself. Almost no-one would go for those terms, though: Voice-verification based on a listed phone number and address, which would be included in the offer. A 100% 60-day guarantee that was enforceable by the buyer. I'd have to think about the other aspects.
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Shaun,Having dealt with this stuff in the past, I can tell you it would have to be a minimum of $250. If you're talking about any kind of review by a skilled person, that's the low end of the cost.

    And the scammers can often put together as much as they need to get the appropriate imprimatur.
    It sounded like a good idea at first, but, as I think about it, I'm not sure it would work out.

    For one thing, the price is going to keep out the people that may actually have a good product, but find the price too high or too risky to take a chance on it. That is, they may be successfully using their technique on their own. So, while they may have a premium-level offer, they'll be relegated to the regular WSO to try it out. Maybe they can dip their toes in the water with a regular WSO and upgrade to premium if sales justify it though.

    So, that leaves the scammers and the big names. Hopefully, a manual review and phone verification would largely keep the scammers out. That would leave the big names. And do they necessarily want to spend $250 or more on a premium WSO when they have affiliates, JV partners and lists to promote their stuff?

    Plus, there already is some amount of anti-guru sentiment, so what happens when the premium WSO section becomes known as the guru WSO section?

    Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

    How about for an extra $50 or $100 letting advertisers add a "[PREMIUM OFFER]" tag at the beginning of their thread title.

    Then they'll stick out a little bit and/or people can just use the advanced search function to search for "[PREMIUM OFFER]".

    There could then also be a rule made disallowing the use of [] at the beginning of any other WSO threads.
    I think something like this is more feasible. Then you could use the search feature to find the Premium Offers. Maybe there could even be a link at the top of the WSO section for a search link that's already populated so you can just click the link and bring up the list of Premium Offers.

    Could be tiered too. $50-$100 additional for [PREMIUM OFFER], $150-$200 additional for [PHONE VERIFIED] or something.

    Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

    Just bouncing ideals out there.

    Any ideals on how I could do it with my WSOGold site are welcome.
    I can tell you're from Kentucky by the way you mix up "idea" and "ideal".
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

      I can tell you're from Kentucky by the way you mix up "idea" and "ideal".
      Dang, I thought I had fixed that.

      Have a Great Day!
      Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dan,
      It sounded like a good idea at first, but, as I think about it, I'm not sure it would work out.
      After sleeping on it, I'm wondering myself. I'm much less inclined to endorse it now, although I can still see some significant value in the concept. The implementation would be a major pain.

      Yes, something could be done to differentiate the more serious offers. The trick is not so much the process as the market.
      Plus, there already is some amount of anti-guru sentiment, so what happens when the premium WSO section becomes known as the guru WSO section?
      Who cares?

      There will always be people who rant about the success of others. The only way to stop that is to get rid of everyone who does better than them, which is hardly a useful solution.

      The [premium offer] tag sounded good at first, too. A simple solution, until you think about the logistics. Too easy to fake or exploit, unless you mandate tags in the software itself, and put them in for all offers. That's got problems.

      The best thing anyone could do for the WSO section is to post reviews for the things they buy, and report any actual problems to the mods. Oh... and read the posted comments (if any) before buying.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Dan,After sleeping on it, I'm wondering myself. I'm much less inclined to endorse it now, although I can still see some significant value in the concept. The implementation would be a major pain.

        Yes, something could be done to differentiate the more serious offers. The trick is not so much the process as the market.

        Paul
        Ok maybe I didnt get ricks message straight (i have been wrong once before 1968 i think it was)

        I figured the fee wasnt supposed to be part of the sorting process, just the means by which someone could be paid to do a proper review of the product that would then give it preferred status

        I except that no matter what price you put on the process, that wont stop bad people

        But with someone of integrity vetting the products in there, Things that the reviewer saw as top quality products and not just get quick rich mush, would be useful to people like Rick and others

        The fee wasnt intended to be the filter, just the means by which a proper evaluation could properly filter out the oh so ran stuff

        Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author tehnolife
    Banned
    I HAVE GONE INSANE! Come on man, I think the idea " Warrior Premium Offer" it's a realy bad idea!

    This choice is for the members who wants to get more exposure and sales!

    This choice is for cowards! This choice is for FOLKS!

    If you can't beat the competition, WHY IN THE WORLD you consider yourself an Internet Marketer!

    Like I said in a previous post, if you want to buy a product, see the REVIEWS about it!

    It's so simple!
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      I dont want to wade through a shop full of plastic gnomes just to find the one or two hand carved stone ones at the back of the shop
      Perhaps if there was a requirement that the first text in the subject line was the price you could then scan the WSO based on price. Right now you have to almost guess as to what a product will do without even a clue as to the price. And wading through the hype...?


      Originally Posted by tehnolife View Post

      Like I said in a previous post, if you want to buy a product, see the REVIEWS about it!

      It's so simple!
      Not really. There are ways to manipulate the reviews that make relying on them dubious. If you haven't noticed that yet then you need to pay more attention to those reviews. Some are golden, some are contrived, it's a crap shoot in many cases.

      ~Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author jaystar
      Originally Posted by tehnolife View Post

      I HAVE GONE INSANE! Come on man, I think the idea " Warrior Premium Offer" it's a realy bad idea!

      This choice is for the members who wants to get more exposure and sales!

      This choice is for cowards! This choice is for FOLKS!

      If you can't beat the competition, WHY IN THE WORLD you consider yourself an Internet Marketer!

      Like I said in a previous post, if you want to buy a product, see the REVIEWS about it!

      It's so simple!
      Are you serious about buying a product based solely on reviews? Are the reviews the biggest selling point of your products?
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      • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
        Originally Posted by jaystar View Post

        Are you serious about buying a product based solely on reviews? Are the reviews the biggest selling point of your products?
        Completely unbiased reviews are. We're not talking about fake testimonials here we're talking about known members of the Warrior community providing feedback on an offer so you know it's genuine.
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        • Profile picture of the author jaystar
          Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

          Completely unbiased reviews are. We're not talking about fake testimonials here we're talking about known members of the Warrior community providing feedback on an offer so you know it's genuine.
          Sure, unbiased reviews are a real help for a buyer (and seller ). But I asked because a good many of the reviews in the WSOs seem unreliable to me. I hesitate to trust a bunch of reviews that came from people who gave them in exchange for a free copy. I know it helps to start with that, but then the "real" reviews, actual buyer reviews should be of some substance. A review that says a product is "well written and has no fluff and looks like it could work" does not help me to make an informed decision. Also, I am wary of warriors overstating the value of a product in support of their pals (yes, I've been bitten). So for me the review is really a small part of the matrix that I use to do my due diligence.

          This question is relevant to the discussion because it speaks to an aspect of the culture in that forum. The way we buy and sell probably has a lot to do with the quality of the forum. The system itself looks fine to me.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Michael,
            What about a rating system that would only allow purchasers the ability to rate the product?
            Lovely thought, except that it's dangerous as hell. Scammer buys using a second account, or has scammer v2.0 buy, and then posts glowing review. HonestUser sees review, assumes system prevents fraud, and gets snookered. Doesn't say anything, for fear of being embarrassed. HonestUser v2.0 does same. Rinse, repeat.

            These things have been discussed at length for as long as there's been a WSO section.
            The way we buy and sell probably has a lot to do with the quality of the forum. The system itself looks fine to me.
            Someone has been paying attention. Thank you!

            Best comment on the subject in probably the last dozen or so threads on it.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Dan,
              I have a handful of friends on WF. What if reviews from my WF friends appeared in a different color in forum posts (which would include the WSO forum) so that I can easily spot them?
              Coding and operational nightmare. Great thought, but the implementation would be gruesome.

              Michael,
              Perhaps that's the biggest problem of all: the ability to BUY perceived status. Sorry, but that isn't what the Warrior Forum is all about in my book.
              That's not how it would work, but that's an argument a ton of people would make.

              As you say, most of the suggestions we get would end up creating more problems than they'd fix. That's largely because most people don't understand how the system really works, and what goes on behind the scenes.

              There are things that would fix some of the perceived problems, but they're cures much worse than the sniffles that might inspire them.

              What people tend to forget (or not know) is how advertising markets work. The cost/value ratio of publicly available ad space tends toward break-even over time. Fighting that tendency, on the part of the merchant, leads to more extreme ads, until the market corrects when the viewers begin to distrust the channel.

              The problem with this in a global digital environment is that the consequences of lying are so much less than they would be in a local, brick-and-mortar scenario. The risk/reward ratio gets skewed, and that leads to Bad Things.

              Ultimately, preventing that is a function of the sense and savvy of the market itself.


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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                It might help to give you folks an idea of some of what goes on behind the scenes. This is a very mild example.

                A gentleman offered a WSO that, among other things, involved automated following and unfollowing of Twitter accounts. Except for auto-followback, Twitter's TOS expressly forbids this in any form. It's not complicated language with room to wiggle.

                I cancelled the WSO, and the guy insisted that he'd gotten approval from Twitter. I told him I would re-instate the WSO only after hearing that myself from someone within Twitter. He gave me two addresses at twitter.com, and the URL for the site providing the service.

                Strangely, there was nothing at all on the publicly viewable, non-member pages of that site about the features he'd played up in the WSO. Not a single word. I emailed the folks at Twitter, and included a copy-and-paste of the ad copy in the WSO, along with the URL of the site, asking if they'd approved that.

                He didn't like that much. Wanted me to only send the URL for the site that didn't say anything about those features.

                Twitter revoked his API access until changes are/were made.

                He lied to Twitter, he lied to me, and he tried to get me to pass the lie along by omitting the salient facts.

                Like I said, that's a very mild example of what goes on behind the scenes.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Greg Jacobs
                  all other comments aside, as a (higher end) product creator, I would love a separate section that simply has three things different

                  1 - it is in a different promoted section
                  2 - it costs more (maybe $300)
                  3 - after 3 days? it dissapears

                  In that way, I could accurately test and make offers without "devaluing" my products by putting them alongside the "Make $324,234 per turd you fart while you are sleeping"

                  just the perspective from a product creator and probably practical to implement.

                  it would appeal to a different segment. only challenge would be to make sure that it keeps filled.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Greg,
                    In that way, I could accurately test and make offers without "devaluing" my products by putting them alongside the "Make $324,234 per turd you fart while you are sleeping"
                    Not getting it.

                    Those are the most effective offers, despite the fact that they're pretty much all lies. The higher price would only keep out the broke folk. The talented scammers would pay it, day in and day out, if it turned a profit. You'd be right there alongside those "deals."

                    Over and over... A higher priced ad rate only keeps out people who can't pay it. It has no relationship whatsoever to the value of the product being advertised. None. Zip. Nada. Bupkus.

                    Reviews could help, but they'd be very time consuming, and there's no guarantee they'd be properly informed. And they would never be completely consistent with the views of every prospect or customer.


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                    Originally Posted by Greg Jacobs View Post

                    all other comments aside, as a (higher end) product creator, I would love a separate section that simply has three things different

                    1 - it is in a different promoted section
                    2 - it costs more (maybe $300)
                    3 - after 3 days? it dissapears

                    In that way, I could accurately test and make offers without "devaluing" my products by putting them alongside the "Make $324,234 per turd you fart while you are sleeping"

                    just the perspective from a product creator and probably practical to implement.

                    it would appeal to a different segment. only challenge would be to make sure that it keeps filled.
                    The domains ThreeDayDeals.com, 3DaySpecials.com, and ThreeDaySpecials.com are available. Just sayin.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      You know what I don't get?

                      Is why these discussions take place so often, and get drug out so long?

                      Most of the folks with Gripes don't sell anything in the WSO section.

                      The people that do sell there act like it's the only place to sell products.

                      Many of the points brought up though are accurate as far as fake feedback, gaming the system, etc - But, those are things that happen in the Industry as a whole...WSO section or not.

                      Gurus that sell $5,000 courses have "fake" testimonials from their "friends" who are promoting their wares as affiliates, and have likely never seen it.

                      Scammers take the money and run, never to be seen again.

                      I realize that the discussion is more appropriate here because people view it as a situation where something can be done, but the "crooks" in the business will always find a way to game the system regardless of what rules you have in place.

                      As a community the only thing we can do is DEMAND PROOF if someone is saying that they made 10,000 in a day or made 2 million dollars last year...and to be honest, the "proof" part isn't something that is relevant only here at the WF either...I think in the past months 2 "gurus" have been called out and exposed for fake screen shots?

                      One way to somewhat correct the situation would be to not allow ANY income claims in the title or ad copy of a WSO unless the person was willing to somehow validate the claims by some sort of certified letter from their accountant or something along those lines...anyone making the money some people say they are making surely has a professional taking care of their books...so, that should be doable
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    I think that something does need to be done but on balance, I agree with Paul above - implementing the process would be, at least, very difficult.

    Will
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  • Profile picture of the author Gladiator
    In my Opinion!

    WSO used to be when a warrior developed their own product or service and just before putting it to the open market would offer Warrior a discount to test the product sales letter etc. That was free LOL

    Now some WSO are just something thrown together and poor quality.

    How many WSO are actually sold outside this Forum?

    A "premium" WSO can be handled by using ClickBank which allow you have a private offer. So this would prevent you from being scammed and no problems for refunds!

    Ok it would cost to have a WSO this way. The fee to have list it at clickbank privately and the WSO listing!

    It is "premium" WSO but it will be paid through clickbank. If your offer is a great success you can offer your product to the open market and even have affiliates through the WSO sales!

    It might be allot of work but this could a good way. We need a little courage to do things different.

    Just a thought.

    Andre
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Here's what I don't get.

      Why are people constantly trying to fix something that isn't broken?

      When we market out in the real world of the Internet, we don't get to make
      the rules about where we promote and how we're allowed to promote. We
      take the hand that we're dealt by each governing body (search engine,
      web 2.0 site, safelist, article directory, or whatever) and make the best of
      it.

      Why should the WSO forum be any different?
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      • Profile picture of the author tehnolife
        Banned
        Very good point Steven! I totaly agree with you! I consider , that the WSO section is good at this moment!




        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Here's what I don't get.

        Why are people constantly trying to fix something that isn't broken?

        When we market out in the real world of the Internet, we don't get to make
        the rules about where we promote and how we're allowed to promote. We
        take the hand that we're dealt by each governing body (search engine,
        web 2.0 site, safelist, article directory, or whatever) and make the best of
        it.

        Why should the WSO forum be any different?
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I totally understand all the positive comments about the WSO working well for the "sellers". From that standpoint there may not be much that could be done to improve things. As a relatively new member to WF I can comment as a "buyer". I have purchased two WSO's that both overdelivered and were valuable to me.

    Even though I have had a great experience I just can't get myself to visit the WSO section anymore. It seems like a hype free-for-all. My brain is mush after scrolling through half a page of offers. I don't mean any disrespect to any individual marketers. A person can actually learn a lot from some of the creative titles that grab your attention. I just don't have the time or energy to spend trying to figure out what each person is selling.

    It would help a lot if there were categories or title requirements like in the "Warriors For Hire" section.
    -----------
    PLUGINS: Unique plugin that will make your website shine....
    METHODS: I will show you a way to...
    TRAFFIC: I will prove how I got a million visitors in 10 minutes...
    MAKE MONEY: The easy way to make a $1 a month! Curious?
    SITE FLIPPING: I flipped my way to wealth - 87 secrets no one has told you...
    ----------
    With a list of mandatory title starters there might be a lot more traffic to the WSO section. I doubt if I am the only one that has given up. I don't ever plan to create a WSO so take my comments with a grain of salt. I am also sure the veterans have heard all this before.
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  • Profile picture of the author BH_Winchester
    I see this as a perfectly viable and valuable option.

    Perhaps make it that to be eligible for the premium WSO section the user must pay a higher fee, or agree that 5% of sales or so is a kick back to Warrior Forum, this money could be used to help compensate the moderators or "WSO Review Board" that review the products, making it more worth their while, making it easier to find high quality WSO.

    Now, some may argue that it is a cost to the IM'er that additional fee or that 5% over-head, but let's be honest, premium WSOs are going to have a much higher rate of sale and thus cover this extra cost anyway.

    Regards,
    Bruce
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    It's true, we do see threads like this crop up from time to time. It's kind of neat to see the fresh ideas that people throw out here and there. Even if changes aren't implemented or not really doable, I appreciate the creativity. I especially appreciate those who put forth ideas because they clearly care about the forum (rather than those who are thinking how to make it better for themselves only).

    I also agree with those who've said the WSO forum works just fine. It does. The market changes, the sellers change, the customers change, the offers change. That's life and that's business. No amount of tweaking the system is going to stop the forum and the WSO marketplace from evolving. And trying to make changes just so the forum works the way "it used to" ("back in the good ol' days") is often a recipe for disaster.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author David Louis Monk
    If it keeps the rogue wariors out that will be great. Premium WSOs costing hundreds of $$; the warrior Members should be made to register verified contact details.

    I have been ripped off by $497 by [removed], so beware. He does not respond to my emails requesting my refund so posts like this will stay until I get my refund and then I will amend.

    I keep getting email offers but [removed] will not acknowledge my emails to his promoted email address and his bio does not give any other contact details.

    By introducing a premium WSO section I would like rogues such as [removed] to be weened out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Venturetothetop
      Originally Posted by David Louis Monk View Post


      I have been ripped off by $497 by [removed],
      Don't get it. If they ripped you off for $497 then surely just raising the price to a premium WSO just raises the amount people will rip you off for... it won't stop them but encourage them.

      It will not solve the problem at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Louis Monk
        Originally Posted by Venturetothetop View Post

        Don't get it. If they ripped you off for $497 then surely just raising the price to a premium WSO just raises the amount people will rip you off for... it won't stop them but encourage them.

        It will not solve the problem at all.
        Thanks for the comment, but you miss the real point I was making for I would agree that I would be ripped off again for a higher price.

        What I am saying is that with these higher price WSOs the Warrior Member should be made to register a valid contact address and telephone number. This is good business practice. Having been ripped off in the past I vowed not to do business again on the internet without having some form of valid contact address (besides email). Alas, I failed to due diligence here thinking all Warrior Members and War Room members were honorable which has proven not to be the case. Honorable Warriors should have nothing to fear by giving contact details in their profile for example.

        The moderators could help protect the naive and innocent by ensuring members who want to advertise high priced offers have a valid registered by postal address and telephone number. I fear this would be seen to require too much effort by the moderators to validate the contact details.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hoopatang
    Valid points being made by both sides of the fence.

    Honestly, as a new warrior, the WSOF looks like my email spam box. Just as many exclamation marks, just as many claims of greatness - all that's missing are pharmaceutical names and insults about a body part that I don't have.

    As such, I don't browse it.

    Good recommendations from well-respected posters over in this section directly linking to a particular WSO will get me to go look, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jeremy,
      One way to somewhat correct the situation would be to not allow ANY income claims in the title or ad copy of a WSO unless the person was willing to somehow validate the claims by some sort of certified letter from their accountant or something along those lines...
      I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to spend the time trying to validate the credentials of an alleged CPA or equivalent in North America, much less somewhere further away. Or try and sort out whether their income derived in the stated part from the activity they were promoting.

      Rejecting any ad that makes income claims would do a lot of useful things. And it would have to be all of them, since we have no practical way of knowing if the past results stated are true, much less whether the thing would work for anyone in the future.

      It would be better if everyone simply refused to buy any offer that makes income claims, but that's not going to happen.

      Brian,
      It is quite another for a forum owner to risk liability because some moderator does a bad job on a 'here is how much money you will make' WSO.
      That was the first thing I thought of when I said there would be serious restrictions on it before I'd do it myself. Even if the claims of past results were true, which I'm sure is the case for some small number of them, there's too much to figure in to know if the things would work for anyone else. And most of them are plain old lies.


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  • Profile picture of the author Deepak Media
    Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

    WSO is so flooded with the lower-end get-rich-quick type offers, that it's hard to find the kind of stuff I'd like to buy.

    Maybe this already exists (in which case I missed it) but I'd like to see a parallel WSO with more of a moderated / sticky philosophy -- a forum where tool-vendors like myself, or the higher-end info-product creators can put their best stuff on sale for the benefit of all Warriors...

    Maybe the price could be higher.... or maybe it could just be moderated...

    Thoughts?

    - Rick
    People can still create rehashed crap products and sell it as "high ticket".

    The only solution I can think of is the admin should appoint a reviewer who can watch the general WSOs for some time. If it generates certain number of good reviews and replies, it can be put into the premium WSO category.

    Yet another easy way to do it would be : use the sales numbers in WarriorPlus.com and select WSOs which has crossed $1000 in total revenue and put it into premius listing.

    Recently I saw a WSO where the OP had only 1 post and the first post was the WSO itself.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    If the WSO forum would let posts go to the top of the list after somebody leaves a comment, the "premium" offers would stand out.

    Unless somebody is gaming, the system...I know. But that's easy to police, isn't it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      David,
      Unless somebody is gaming, the system...I know. But that's easy to police, isn't it?
      No, it isn't. And doing it that way creates other problems, most of which are unfair to people who've paid for ad space.


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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      If the WSO forum would let posts go to the top of the list after somebody leaves a comment, the "premium" offers would stand out.

      Unless somebody is gaming, the system...I know. But that's easy to police, isn't it?

      THAT is a disaster waiting to happen.

      "Hey Johnny, post a comment to my WSO so it goes up to the top"

      Puuuuuleeeze.
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      If the WSO forum would let posts go to the top of the list after somebody leaves a comment, the "premium" offers would stand out.

      Unless somebody is gaming, the system...I know. But that's easy to police, isn't it?
      The WSO forum used to work that way, but it was changed because too many folks were coming up with too many ideas for ways of keeping their threads on top. (This is when WSOs were free, I think.)


      Deepak,

      The only solution I can think of is the admin should appoint a reviewer who can watch the general WSOs for some time. If it generates certain number of good reviews and replies, it can be put into the premium WSO category.
      Too easy to game. There are lots of sock puppets on this forum as it is.

      Yet another easy way to do it would be : use the sales numbers in WarriorPlus.com and select WSOs which has crossed $1000 in total revenue and put it into premius listing.

      One problem with this is that sellers are forced to use a specific third-party service in order to qualify for a premium listing. No thanks.

      And that's not the only problem, by the way. Look at what happened with the "WSOs of the Day," which were based on good conversion rates... that gives you an idea of potential problems that could happen with this similar idea.



      Cheers,
      Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      If the WSO forum would let posts go to the top of the list after somebody leaves a comment, the "premium" offers would stand out.

      Unless somebody is gaming, the system...I know. But that's easy to police, isn't it?
      That is a really bad idea.
      With my WSOs i sell i very rarely get a comment as i have reguar customers that buy them, but i still sell about $500-$1k each WSO.
      But as mine has no comments why is it worse that someone that has made $50 but has a few comments?
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      If the WSO forum would let posts go to the top of the list after somebody leaves a comment, the "premium" offers would stand out.
      It was like that several years ago -- new posts always bumped the thread to the top of page one, like in other sections.

      Unless somebody is gaming, the system...I know. But that's easy to police, isn't it?
      No, not really. That's why they disabled bumping in there.

      And I'm talking several years ago, when the WSO forum wasn't anywhere near as busy and crazy as it is now. I don't even want to think about the headaches now if they enabled bumping again.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by RickRaddatz View Post

        WSO is so flooded with the lower-end get-rich-quick type offers, that it's hard to find the kind of stuff I'd like to buy.

        Maybe this already exists (in which case I missed it) but I'd like to see a parallel WSO with more of a moderated / sticky philosophy -- a forum where tool-vendors like myself, or the higher-end info-product creators can put their best stuff on sale for the benefit of all Warriors...

        Maybe the price could be higher.... or maybe it could just be moderated...

        Thoughts?

        - Rick
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Michael,

        My best guess on the OP's intent would be to use the Premium listing as a way to get to the top of the WSO board. Sort of like buying the #1 spot in Adwords for a keyword by paying more for it.

        Depending on what you're selling, the copy and offer being made, you could recoup your investment pretty quickly, regardless of the Premium fee.

        Take care,

        Mike
        The highlighted portions of the 1st post, and additional comments gave me a distinctly different impression.

        All the best,
        Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

        It was like that several years ago -- new posts always bumped the thread to the top of page one, like in other sections.



        No, not really. That's why they disabled bumping in there.

        And I'm talking several years ago, when the WSO forum wasn't anywhere near as busy and crazy as it is now. I don't even want to think about the headaches now if they enabled bumping again.
        They also had to make a rule that sellers couldn't require posting in the WSO as a condition of receiving the WSO.

        If WSO posts could be bumped by posting, the system would be gamed...mercilessly, continuously and nauseatingly.

        All the best,
        Michael

        p.s. Can you tell I checked the online thesaurus this time?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Michael,

          If I decide I don't want to hang out in a bar with loud drunks, pickpockets and nasty people, does that make me elitist? If so, label away. I can handle it.

          There's nothing wrong with wanting to make things better, or with refusing to be associated with things of which you don't approve. And when you know that the most effective sales approach also happens to be the one most likely to be a lie (income claims), you're faced with exactly that kind of choice.

          Mike,

          What you're saying about categories sounds sensible, like I said. But it's not how the system works. Charles nailed it exactly.

          It may not be what you want, but it's what most people want, and it works better for both buyers and sellers this way. I've looked at that part of it from every angle I can, and the current set-up works fine for what people go to that section for.
          How much of YOUR time do you want to spend wading through pages of WSOs covering every possible product or service for sale when you looking for something specific like software?
          As much time as it takes to ask the trusty customer service rep, Mister Search. He's only been out sick for a couple of days in the past 8 years.
          Most buyers don't want to wade through dozens of pages to find what they're looking for.
          Assumption: Most people go there looking for something specific without already having the URL for that offer. That's a questionable assumption. Some people do, certainly, but most? Doesn't look that way to me.


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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,

            If I decide I don't want to hang out in a bar with loud drunks, pickpockets and nasty people, does that make me elitist? If so, label away. I can handle it.

            There's nothing wrong with wanting to make things better, or with refusing to be associated with things of which you don't approve. And when you know that the most effective sales approach also happens to be the one most likely to be a lie (income claims), you're faced with exactly that kind of choice.

            Paul
            No.

            However, if you said the only people that can drink at the quiet place have to pay $250 to get in (or $100 to get your ID checked and $1000 to buy a drink), then that's my problem.

            Of course there is nothing wrong with making things better, and you're saying that implies that I said there was something wrong with it.

            Not all income claims are lies. BUT, even if there would be a rule against them, it wouldn't fix the problem the OP seems to be having. It's not like you to mischaracterize my comments, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

            Also, I re-read the OP, and was even more opposed to the original idea because I noticed how quickly he shifted from "a place that would make easier for me to buy" to "I'd really like a place where I can compete on my terms."

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Michael,
              However, if you said the only people that can drink at the quiet place have to pay $250 to get in (or $100 to get your ID checked and $1000 to buy a drink), then that's my problem.
              Why? It's not your money, and it doesn't take away any of your other options. For instance, asking the loudmouths to be quiet. Or going to another bar. Or ignoring them.

              I still don't see a way to make it work the way Rick and Bob want it to, but that doesn't mean it's not a good goal.

              In America, we have this tendency to look with disapproval on anyone who wants to be discerning. That perspective has bred a sub-culture of hatred for people who have more than the person doing the looking, or who want or expect more of themselves and others.

              That's not a healthy way to run a society.
              Also, I re-read the OP, and was even more opposed to the original idea because I noticed how quickly he shifted from "a place that would make easier for me to buy" to "I'd really like a place where I can compete on my terms."
              I think the disconnect is in the interpretation of the phrase "my terms." I'm taking it to mean, "I don't want to be associated with what I consider sleazy techniques." You seem to be interpreting it as, "I want to slant the rules in my favor."


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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Michael,Why? It's not your money, and it doesn't take awayany of your other options. For instance, asking the loudmouths to be quiet. Or going to another bar. Or ignoring them.
                Agreed. Let's start there, if at all.

                Now, if you were to say you can get into the premium WSO section by offering a % of sales, then that evens out the playing field for all players. It would also give incentive to the approvers to let the best stuff through, it would give buyers more confidence, and would allow sellers to put their best foot forward.

                Of course, that would create a whole set of problems, but I also wanted to show that I am also game for trying to improve things. And that would not only be something that I would support (if I had any true influence), it's something I would make use of.

                I think the disconnect is in the interpretation of the phrase "my terms." I'm taking it to mean, "I don't want to be associated with what I consider sleazy techniques." You seem to be interpreting it as, "I want to slant the rules in my favor."

                Paul
                That doesn't make either one of us correct in our interpretation, though. However, my guess is that it is somewhere between the two.

                All the best,
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                  I have an idea...

                  Being Paypal verified and displaying the stamp on a sales page is a proven way of increasing conversions. Tough to fake because the link is clickable and leads to a secure page which displays the validity of the seal.

                  Need a WF Seal for proven members, verified by address, phone, perhaps even bank account. Not for the WSO but for the members profile itself and a handy little place to get the seal which when clicked on goes to the members profile.

                  Just the presence of the seal could create more trust, and making it searchable within the WSO section could give those who do not want to wade a smaller list of things to wade through.

                  I, of course, though would like to be contracted out to create the unique seals for each member and be paid an immense amount of dough just for coming up with the already used idea.

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  • Profile picture of the author John Piteo
    What about just having two equal WSO forums ($20 each)

    WSO 1 is for “Make Money” and Get Rich Quick” type stuff.

    WSO 2 is for Educational Products, Software, Graphics Packages etc., low hype type stuff.
    This would be for things like learning a new marketing skill. For example, “How to use Video, Workshop” or “The Mechanics of Affiliate Marketing”.

    The rules would be simple for this forum NO INCOME CLAIMS. No, “make $10,000 a month” doing this or that. No, “I made $5000 in one day and you can too!” Maybe also a couple of other rules that you smart people could think of.


    Take a look at the income claims in the WSO right now. What do you think about it?

    Yes, I do sell a product that teaches a skill and I would certainly pay for products that teach skills that I want to learn, or software or graphics. It would be nice to have a place to look and sell these things without all of the “get rich quick” hype.

    In marketing there is also a place for hype that’s why we should have two WSO forums.

    Not better or "premium", just different.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bob,
      (i have been wrong once before 1968 i think it was)
      "How are you wrong? Let me count the ways..."

      [splorf]

      So, Bob, let me get this straight. In the whole time I've known you, and despite the fact that you've had the sheer audacity to disagree with me, you claim you've never been wrong?

      And not more than once in the 42 years before that??? Granted, you're in the UK, so the standards are lower, but still...

      John,
      The rules would be simple for this forum NO INCOME CLAIMS.
      The one and only big deal. That would be a game changer.

      I haven't given up hope.


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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        That would be a game changer.
        Why isn't this already a rule?

        I mean, all kidding aside: what percentage of "scam" WSOs that have actually needed to be closed didn't have some kind of income claim in them?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Caliban,
          Why isn't this already a rule?
          Looong story.
          I mean, all kidding aside: what percentage of "scam" WSOs that have actually needed to be closed didn't have some kind of income claim in them?
          Hard to say. Most of them, it seems, but that's a looong story.


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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Caliban,Looong story.Hard to say. Most of them, it seems, but that's a looong story.


            Paul
            If people would put themselves in Allen's shoes, I think their tune might be a little different.

            I'd go into detail about why I think so, but I'm not sure I could adequately make my point. Because in the end, people would have to take themselves out of Allen's shoes and go back to looking at it from a customer's (advertiser's) point of view.

            So all I'll say is that until (probably won't ever happen) the ad revenue the WSO section generates starts to decline due to advertisers not finding it appealing anymore, I wouldn't expect any major changes from Allen. I know I wouldn't touch it unless I was fairly certain that any change would increase ad revenue long term.

            For all that Allen provides via the Warrior Forum, I don't think anyone can (or would) fault him for making prudent business decisions in regards to monetizing his site. Don't get me wrong, community feedback is a good thing. But keep in mind that this is also a business. In certain instances business has to trump community for the good of the community.

            That's how I see it anyway. I hope it at least made a little bit of sense.
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

              If people would put themselves in Allen's shoes, I think their tune might be a little different.

              I'd go into detail about why I think so, but I'm not sure I could adequately make my point. Because in the end, people would have to take themselves out of Allen's shoes and go back to looking at it from a customer's (advertiser's) point of view.

              So all I'll say is that until (probably won't ever happen) the ad revenue the WSO section generates starts to decline due to advertisers not finding it appealing anymore, I wouldn't expect any major changes from Allen. I know I wouldn't touch it unless I was fairly certain that any change would increase ad revenue long term.

              For all that Allen provides via the Warrior Forum, I don't think anyone can (or would) fault him for making prudent business decisions in regards to monetizing his site. Don't get me wrong, community feedback is a good thing. But keep in mind that this is also a business. In certain instances business has to trump community for the good of the community.

              That's how I see it anyway. I hope it at least made a little bit of sense.
              No you made perfect sense...

              And that is one of the factors Allen would have to consider. Hell he may be sat at home reading this thinking

              jeez cant these people get a life and stop trying to screw around with WF

              Every idea has its pros and cons
              every person on here as their own agenda about what they would like
              every change will have supporters and dissenters

              Every change only gets made if its in Allens interest (or at least doesnt effect Allen)

              Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Bob,"How are you wrong? Let me count the ways..."

        [splorf]

        So, Bob, let me get this straight. In the whole time I've known you, and despite the fact that you've had the sheer audacity to disagree with me, you claim you've never been wrong?

        And not more than once in the 42 years before that??? Granted, you're in the UK, so the standards are lower, but still...

        John,The one and only big deal. That would be a game changer.

        I haven't given up hope.


        Paul

        Pretty simple I am never wrong (ask my kids ) hahha

        So if i disagreed with you, its plain as i am always right you must have been wrong

        Take a breath before you reply old man hahahahaha
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by John Piteo View Post

      What about just having two equal WSO forums ($20 each)

      WSO 1 is for "Make Money" and Get Rich Quick" type stuff.

      WSO 2 is for Educational Products, Software, Graphics Packages etc., low hype type stuff.
      This would be for things like learning a new marketing skill. For example, "How to use Video, Workshop" or "The Mechanics of Affiliate Marketing".

      The rules would be simple for this forum NO INCOME CLAIMS. No, "make $10,000 a month" doing this or that. No, "I made $5000 in one day and you can too!" Maybe also a couple of other rules that you smart people could think of.


      Take a look at the income claims in the WSO right now. What do you think about it?

      Yes, I do sell a product that teaches a skill and I would certainly pay for products that teach skills that I want to learn, or software or graphics. It would be nice to have a place to look and sell these things without all of the "get rich quick" hype.

      In marketing there is also a place for hype that's why we should have two WSO forums.

      Not better or "premium", just different.

      John P
      This is an idea I've supported before. As it is the WSO forum is already broken-out - with website sellers now having their own area.

      I think this would help buyers find what they are looking for, instead of wading through such a mass of WSOs. And it would help sellers, who don't see their WSO scroll of the first page a half-hour after being posted.

      Just as the WF as a whole is so popular that there is not just one forum area, but now many forum areas to address specific issues, the same could happen to the WSO section.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Piteo
    Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

    If people would put themselves in Allen's shoes, I think their tune might be a little different.
    Looking at from a business point of view…

    The original WSO would continue to function as usual. The added forum (WSO 2 from my post above) would add revenue. It wouldn’t be just dividing the pie you already have. It would be like an extra piece of pie. The added revenue would come from people from who would like to advertise on the WSO forum, but they don’t because they don’t want their products to be associated with all of the “get rich quick” type products. I also feel the some Warriors don’t look at the current WSO’s because of the excessive hype. These potential customers may look at the offers in the WSO 2 forum. Win-Win!
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      I see what you're saying, John.

      But IMO that's an awful lot of theory to go messing with the current system.

      I have my reasons for believing why it makes good business sense for Allen to keep all the WSOs in one section, but some people may not like hearing it. You could probably guess them if you take the cost of advertising, operating procedures, & effectiveness of the WSO section into account.

      Granted, I hadn't given much thought to your model. But that's because of what I mentioned above, and the fact that I'd be reluctant to mess with what's already working so well if I were Allen.

      IMO, those that don't want to be associated with the hype can just be solid contributing members/assets to the forum and direct traffic to their offers via their sig files. And rely on targeted prospects to use the search function. That's still easily worth the $20 in my mind.



      Originally Posted by John Piteo View Post

      Looking at from a business point of view…

      The original WSO would continue to function as usual. The added forum (WSO 2 from my post above) would add revenue. It wouldn’t be just dividing the pie you already have. It would be like an extra piece of pie. The added revenue would come from people from who would like to advertise on the WSO forum, but they don’t because they don’t want their products to be associated with all of the “get rich quick” type products. I also feel the some Warriors don’t look at the current WSO’s because of the excessive hype. These potential customers may look at the offers in the WSO 2 forum. Win-Win!
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    The idea of categories sounds cool to me, but I think the categories would have to be very general, to make things easier for moderation.

    Products
    Services
    Software

    Then, depending how that would go, it may be worthwhile to break those down into subcategories.

    That's an idea that would keep the playing field equal for everybody, and would make it a bit easier to find the products you want.

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  • Profile picture of the author GTCRESSY
    I totally agree with your comments. Maybe there should also be a price consideration in what you are asking.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I don't think breaking the WSO forum into more product categories would be good for buyers or sellers, based on how they use the thing. And tinkering with something like that without a really serious reason is rarely a good idea.

      At this point, we're just going over the same ground as we do every time the subject comes up.


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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I don't think breaking the WSO forum into more product categories would be good for buyers or sellers, based on how they use the thing.
        It also seems to me we've got four different "for sale" forums anyway: Warriors For Hire, Complete Sites For Sale, Warrior Classifieds, and Warrior Special Offers.

        Almost everything seems to end up in the WSO forum anyway, and if you ask why, people tend to say "well, that's where the most eyeballs are."

        So when I think about it, this doesn't really look to me like splitting stuff up further is going to make anything better. It will just move some eyeballs out of forum A and into forum B, and take those eyeballs off the things in forum A. Meanwhile, the things in forum B don't get the eyeballs that are still in forum A.

        It sort of looks like both sides lose and nobody wins.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Steve,
          I guess I don't have much more to contribute other than, the simpler the system the harder it is to game. When something gets out of control regulate it.
          That's always been my philosophy. Operate based on principles and general guidelines and goals, rather than rules. The presence of rules in an environment like this means someone is doing something wrong and refuses to correct it. Big enough group, it will happen.

          Caliban,

          That sums it up. Splitting that forum into more sub-sections would not be in the general interest. Sure, a few people want things to be categorized, and that always comes up. Sounds sensible. But it's not how most people use the thing. It doesn't even seem like it's how they should use it.


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      • Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I don't think breaking the WSO forum into more product categories would be good for buyers or sellers, based on how they use the thing. And tinkering with something like that without a really serious reason is rarely a good idea.

        At this point, we're just going over the same ground as we do every time the subject comes up.


        Paul
        Exactly! Look at DP for example. All there subcategories, have very few active viewers. I think it would bad for both buyer and seller.

        From a buyer standpoint, I often times dont know exactly what I want, or what category to look in. I browse the WSO's to try to find things that interest me. But in my search, I often find other things that interest me that I would have never thought to look for. So, I buy a lot of unrelated WSO's because the title or idea catches my attention. If the forum was split into categories, I wouldnt be able to find those unrelated items, cuz I am not going to search every sub cat to see what is out there.

        From a seller standpoint, I can assure you that there will be incomplete categories. You are going to have products that you think should go in a certain category, but that category doesnt exist. Then you have to figure out which category your buyers are likely to search for your product. The only way to address this would be to create a category for every type of IM product, which would fracture the WSO forum so much that the WSO forum would be worthless.

        Think of this. If there are 1000 active viewers to the WSO forum and you have 10 categories, that is only 100 visitors per category. Do you guys really want to become digital point, or do you think we are too good to fail as they did?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Michael,
          I still see the OP's idea as a way to have less competition. And, to be honest, it makes me wonder how great they are if they are griping about not being able to outperform all the "junk" they claim is on there.
          Not the idea at all.

          "Competing" there means, for many people at this moment, trying to yell louder than everyone else. That's a game a lot of us don't want to play. But it's how the buyers have set the rules.

          Sometimes you walk away, rather than play down to a level you're not comfortable with.


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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,Not the idea at all.

            "Competing" there means, for many people at this moment, trying to yell louder than everyone else. That's a game a lot of us don't want to play. But it's how the buyers have set the rules.

            Sometimes you walk away, rather than play down to a level you're not comfortable with.


            Paul
            I agree entirely that that isn't the idea behind...

            It's just the way I'm perceiving it. And that's the trouble with perception: While it may not be reality, people act onit as though it is. In this case, I don't think I would be the only with a perception problem - which would create more problems.

            All the best,
            Michael

            p.s. Note to self: At least consult an online thesaurus once in a while so you don't have to keep using the word "problem".
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,Not the idea at all.

            "Competing" there means, for many people at this moment, trying to yell louder than everyone else. That's a game a lot of us don't want to play. But it's how the buyers have set the rules.

            Sometimes you walk away, rather than play down to a level you're not comfortable with.


            Paul
            Of course, that's THEIR perception.

            However, sometimes the person who whispers gets the most attention when everybody else is yelling.

            I also had another thought. What happens when everybody finds out the new WSO section is the best place to get sales? The shouting will eventually come back.

            Unless you would somehow have to approve the subject lines and sales copy.

            My perception is still that some people don't want to compete in a certain marketplace, so they want to create a new one - one that will EXCLUDE people that can't afford it.

            That still smacks of elitism to me, and hints at the idea that somehow people who are just starting out can't offer good products.

            Maybe somebody could explain why it's NOT an elitist idea. I'm all ears.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              My perception is still that some people don't want to compete in a certain marketplace, so they want to create a new one - one that will EXCLUDE people that can't afford it.

              That still smacks of elitism to me, and hints at the idea that somehow people who are just starting out can't offer good products.

              Maybe somebody could explain why it's NOT an elitist idea. I'm all ears.

              All the best,
              Michael
              I'll give it a shot.

              It comes down to being able to target your ideal customers and market accordingly.

              If you're selling a membership site script (as an example) then you can market it in the specific keywords and niches where your prospective customers are mostly likely to be found.

              The search engines don't lump you into the dog grooming sites and every other website in the world.

              Not hardly.

              People can do a search and find what they're looking for, even if it's using a general search phrase like 'cheap membership software'.

              The better explanation is to look at things from a buyers perspective. How much of YOUR time do you want to spend wading through pages of WSOs covering every possible product or service for sale when you looking for something specific like software?

              Most buyers don't want to wade through dozens of pages to find what they're looking for. That's extra WORK that they didn't ask for. It's just like a site with crappy navigation... if it's too much WORK to find what people are looking for then they leave without buying... and they usually don't come back.

              The search engine rankings have proven that too... if you're not on the first page or two then you get very little SE traffic (generally speaking). Same with the current WSO format but... it's every single niche and product competing for the same page 1 "ranking".

              My guess is that Allen would see an uptick in WSO bookings with the additional subcategories because people who aren't using the WSO now to sell their software/scripts will see there's a dedicated area in Warrior Forum to do so where it won't be lost in the jumble of all of the other offerings.

              Look at how much the Warriors For Hire section has grown since it was added and it's A LOT easier to find Warrior freelancers to hire (programmers, graphics, copy, etc.) when you need them.

              I believe the WSO sellers will also see an increase in sales because it will be easier for people to find what they're selling.

              So IMHO, everyone wins.

              Hope that helps,

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                I'll give it a shot.

                It comes down to being able to target your ideal customers and market accordingly.

                If you're selling a membership site script (as an example) then you can market it in the specific keywords and niches where your prospective customers are mostly likely to be found.

                The search engines don't lump you into the dog grooming sites and every other website in the world.

                Not hardly.

                People can do a search and find what they're looking for, even if it's using a general search phrase like 'cheap membership software'.

                The better explanation is to look at things from a buyers perspective. How much of YOUR time do you want to spend wading through pages of WSOs covering every possible product or service for sale when you looking for something specific like software?

                Most buyers don't want to wade through dozens of pages to find what they're looking for. That's extra WORK that they didn't ask for. It's just like a site with crappy navigation... if it's too much WORK to find what people are looking for then they leave without buying... and they usually don't come back.

                The search engine rankings have proven that too... if you're not on the first page or two then you get very little SE traffic (generally speaking). Same with the current WSO format but... it's every single niche and product competing for the same page 1 "ranking".

                My guess is that Allen would see an uptick in WSO bookings with the additional subcategories because people who aren't using the WSO now to sell their software/scripts will see there's a dedicated area in Warrior Forum to now do so where it won't be lost in the jumble of all of the other offerings.

                Look at how much the Warriors For Hire section has grown since it was added and it's A LOT easier to find Warrior freelancers to hire (programmers, graphics, copy, etc.) when you need them.

                I believe the WSO sellers will also see an increase in sales because it will be easier for people to find what they're selling.

                So IMHO, everyone wins.

                Hope that helps,

                Mike
                That part I sort of get.

                I already said I don't have a problem with subcategories.

                I'm referring to the OP's suggestion that there be a PREMIUM listing, say for $250, or whatever.

                As far as the argument that has been raised several times, that "nobody wants to wade through pages of offers to find what they're looking for" simply doesn't hold up. At most times of the day there is one section that has the most viewers - the WSO section. In fact, as I write this, there are approximately 300 more viewing the WSO section than the main board.

                Apparently a LOT of people ARE digging. I would find it hard to believe that all 1,191 people are only looking at the first page.

                So, that comes back to my point of knowing the marketplace, and reinforces Paul's point about "shouting loudly".

                The WSO section, I think, IS being used as a way of browsing; akin to window shopping. Just seeing what's in there, UNTIL something looks like it's worth buying.

                Anyway, you explained your point well, but it wasn't quite what I was wondering. If you follow.

                All the best,
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                  That part I sort of get.

                  I already said I don't have a problem with subcategories.

                  I'm referring to the OP's suggestion that there be a PREMIUM listing, say for $250, or whatever.
                  Michael,

                  My best guess on the OP's intent would be to use the Premium listing as a way to get to the top of the WSO board. Sort of like buying the #1 spot in Adwords for a keyword by paying more for it.

                  Depending on what you're selling, the copy and offer being made, you could recoup your investment pretty quickly, regardless of the Premium fee.

                  Take care,

                  Mike
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    I want a premium forum that only bald people can post products.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      I want a premium forum that only bald people can post products.
                      Well, that would certainly eliminate all the splitting of hairs we do on this forum...

                      ~Bill
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                    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      I want a premium forum that only bald people can post products.
                      Then I would be the guy selling hair shaving kits!

                      ~M~
                      Signature

                      "Ich bin en fuego!"
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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                        Then I would be the guy selling hair shaving kits!
                        HeadBlade® | Ultimate Head Shaving Razor & Head Care Products

                        They have an affiliate program.
                        Signature
                        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Is it just me or are all these clever schemes people come up just going to be fodder for scammers to exploit. Charging $500 for wso posting wouldn't stop scammers. It would clear out the forum of a lot of genuine adverts and leave the scammers with massively more exposure.

    i can't help but wonder if moving the goal posts would just give people an excuse for shenanigans.

    I guess I don't have much more to contribute other than, the simpler the system the harder it is to game. When something gets out of control regulate it. Pretty much how the forum is now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    My suggestion was based on a "what if". And IF it were ever split up, I think it would be best to keep it very broad.

    I've said it before in other threads, and others here have mentioned it...the WSO section isn't perfect, but it's not as bad as people think it is. All in all, it's a good system, and it obviously works for a lot of people.

    I still see the OP's idea as a way to have less competition. And, to be honest, it makes me wonder how great they are if they are griping about not being able to outperform all the "junk" they claim is on there.

    Know the marketplace!

    If you are whining about your $497, $997, or $5000 offers not getting enough takers in the WSO section, then DON'T SELL THERE! Yes, I know there are a lot of substandard offers, and there are a lot of good ones, too.

    Aren't the "big dogs" supposed to understand this stuff? I don't consider myself a "big dog" at all, but to me it seems that instead of asking for a new section, you should better understand how to use the one that's already there.

    Offer a lower priced offer that brings people in and gets them to see your higher priced offer. It's not rocket surgery folks!

    One more thing, I apologize if I'm coming across as cranky...I'm not. More confused than anything.

    And...

    It all comes down to one thing...

    It's up to Allen anyway. However, I think it's good to discuss things like this from time to time, but to also know that it is just that - a discussion. What I mean is that you shouldn't get your hopes up that there will be a premium WSO section, just as I shouldn't get my hopes up that there WON'T be.

    Fair enough?

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    The problem isn't that people can't find/distinguish between WSO's.

    The problem is the fact that WSO's are only visible on the first page for 4-5 hours
    at the present. Locating a WSO while so many are added/bumped can be a nightmare.

    I can show you stats I collected that show a WSO on the first page for
    more that 24 hours. You're lucky if you can keep it there now for 6 hours.

    I'm not saying that it's a problem to me money wise only that it may be for
    others which also causes a problem for newer marketers. Yes I know it's all
    good for Allen! It's Business. I'm just pointing out a fact. Thanks.

    I've bumped my WSO's upwards of 12-15 times in the past with good
    results. Although, newer people running WSO's are trying to gain some
    type of foot hold and want to get their info out there. Yes, some are
    scammers it goes with the territory. $hit happens, hence the earlier caveat
    emptor posts.

    I'm not beaching(intensional misspelling) about it but many tell me that it's hard for
    them to compete in the WSO section now. I know they can circumvent it by building a
    list but new people really don't know that yet. Plus they are trying to gain revenue to
    get their business off the ground. <-Scammers? Sometimes but not always. I've seen
    members here surpass me during my time and have held up my cup in tribute to them.

    Here is an example that may get me into some $hit that I should/could avoid but now
    seems to me to be the right time to show this. (John, I was gonna tell ya)

    Here are WSO stats of a WSO that John Taylor ran before the forum received the infux
    of new members at the beginning of this year. I've actually tracked the results of other
    interesting warriors during that time too. Some I passed on to the Warriors.

    Sorry for the length of the data but it speaks for it's self.

    Date,Time,Viewers,WSO's,New,Bumps,WSO Pos,WSO Location,
    06/12/2009,11:34,566,5356,0,0,1,Page#1 Thread(1 of 60), Tracking New WSO John Taylor #92943
    06/12/2009,14:21,507,5358,2,13,16,Page#1 Thread(16 of 60)
    06/12/2009,14:36,512,5358,0,0,0,Page#1 Thread(16 of 60)
    06/12/2009,14:51,520,5358,0,5,0,Page#1 Thread(21 of 60)
    06/12/2009,15:06,526,5358,0,0,0,Page#1 Thread(21 of 60)
    06/12/2009,15:21,523,5358,0,0,0,Page#1 Thread(23 of 60)
    06/12/2009,15:36,534,5359,1,0,24,Page#1 Thread(24 of 60)
    06/12/2009,15:49,537,5359,0,0,24,Page#1 Thread(24 of 60)
    06/12/2009,16:04,533,5359,0,0,24,Page#1 Thread(24 of 60)
    06/12/2009,16:19,526,5360,1,4,29,Page#1 Thread(29 of 60)
    06/12/2009,18:34,493,5360,0,6,35,Page#1 Thread(35 of 60)
    06/12/2009,18:49,485,5360,0,2,35,Page#1 Thread(35 of 60)
    06/12/2009,19:04,472,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,19:19,482,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,19:34,488,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,19:49,469,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,20:04,463,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,20:19,449,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,20:34,456,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,20:49,450,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,21:04,438,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,21:19,507,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,21:34,483,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,21:49,493,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,22:04,491,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,22:19,485,5360,0,0,37,Page#1 Thread(37 of 60)
    06/12/2009,22:34,463,5359,-1,1,36,Page#1 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/12/2009,22:49,471,5359,0,0,40,Page#1 Thread(40 of 60)
    06/12/2009,23:04,473,5359,0,0,40,Page#1 Thread(40 of 60)
    06/12/2009,23:19,401,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/12/2009,23:35,410,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/12/2009,23:50,392,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,00:05,403,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,00:20,416,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,00:35,402,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,00:50,395,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,01:05,392,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,01:20,391,5359,0,0,42,Page#1 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/13/2009,01:35,395,5359,0,0,44,Page#1 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/13/2009,01:50,397,5362,3,-3,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,02:05,368,5362,0,0,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,02:20,373,5362,0,0,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,02:35,370,5362,0,0,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,02:50,382,5362,0,0,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,03:05,375,5362,0,0,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,03:20,365,5362,0,0,47,Page#1 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/13/2009,03:35,371,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,03:50,354,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,04:05,363,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,04:20,363,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,04:36,352,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,04:51,332,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,05:06,338,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,05:21,313,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,05:36,286,5362,0,0,49,Page#1 Thread(49 of 60)
    06/13/2009,05:51,277,5362,0,0,50,Page#1 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/13/2009,06:06,271,5363,1,-1,54,Page#1 Thread(54 of 60)
    06/13/2009,06:21,262,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,06:36,249,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,06:51,266,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,07:06,273,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,07:21,268,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,07:36,280,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,07:51,299,5363,0,0,55,Page#1 Thread(55 of 60)
    06/13/2009,08:06,309,5363,0,0,56,Page#1 Thread(56 of 60)
    06/13/2009,08:21,326,5363,0,0,56,Page#1 Thread(56 of 60)
    06/13/2009,08:36,336,5363,0,0,56,Page#1 Thread(56 of 60)
    06/13/2009,08:51,350,5363,0,0,56,Page#1 Thread(56 of 60)
    06/13/2009,09:06,363,5364,1,-1,60,Page#1 Thread(60 of 60)
    06/13/2009,09:21,374,5364,0,0,61,Page#2 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/13/2009,09:36,389,5364,0,0,61,Page#2 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/13/2009,09:51,399,5364,0,0,61,Page#2 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/13/2009,10:06,418,5364,0,0,61,Page#2 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/13/2009,10:21,424,5364,0,0,60,Page#1 Thread(60 of 60)A newer WSO was deleted!
    06/13/2009,10:36,453,5364,0,0,60,Page#1 Thread(60 of 60)
    06/13/2009,10:52,455,5364,0,0,60,Page#1 Thread(60 of 60)
    06/13/2009,11:07,458,5364,0,0,60,Page#1 Thread(60 of 60)
    06/13/2009,11:22,449,5364,0,0,60,Page#1 Thread(60 of 60)
    06/13/2009,11:37,452,5365,1,-1,67,Page#2 Thread(7 of 60)WOW! 6 WSO's were bumped before John's
    06/13/2009,11:52,453,5365,0,0,68,Page#2 Thread(8 of 60)
    06/13/2009,12:07,464,5365,0,0,68,Page#2 Thread(8 of 60)
    06/13/2009,12:22,476,5365,0,0,70,Page#2 Thread(10 of 60)
    06/13/2009,12:37,481,5366,1,-1,72,Page#2 Thread(12 of 60)
    06/13/2009,12:52,477,5366,0,0,72,Page#2 Thread(12 of 60)
    06/13/2009,13:07,459,5366,0,0,72,Page#2 Thread(12 of 60)
    06/13/2009,13:22,469,5366,0,0,72,Page#2 Thread(12 of 60)
    06/13/2009,13:29,481,5366,0,0,72,Page#2 Thread(12 of 60)
    06/13/2009,13:44,487,5366,0,0,72,Page#2 Thread(12 of 60)
    06/13/2009,13:59,499,5368,2,-2,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,14:14,499,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,14:29,494,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,14:44,483,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,14:59,480,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,15:14,478,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,15:29,487,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,15:44,485,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,16:00,463,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,16:15,462,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,16:30,451,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,16:45,450,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,17:00,442,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,17:15,447,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,17:30,438,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,17:45,430,5368,0,0,79,Page#2 Thread(19 of 60)
    06/13/2009,18:00,556,5368,0,0,78,Page#2 Thread(18 of 60)
    06/13/2009,18:15,567,5368,0,0,78,Page#2 Thread(18 of 60)
    06/13/2009,18:30,574,5368,0,0,78,Page#2 Thread(18 of 60)
    06/13/2009,18:45,578,5368,0,0,78,Page#2 Thread(18 of 60)
    06/13/2009,19:00,579,5368,0,0,78,Page#2 Thread(18 of 60)
    06/13/2009,19:15,568,5372,4,-4,89,Page#2 Thread(29 of 60)
    06/13/2009,19:30,580,5372,0,0,91,Page#2 Thread(31 of 60)
    06/13/2009,19:45,624,5372,0,0,90,Page#2 Thread(30 of 60)
    06/13/2009,20:00,454,5372,0,0,91,Page#2 Thread(31 of 60)
    06/13/2009,20:15,449,5372,0,0,91,Page#2 Thread(31 of 60)
    06/13/2009,20:30,438,5372,0,0,91,Page#2 Thread(31 of 60)
    06/13/2009,20:45,428,5372,0,0,91,Page#2 Thread(31 of 60)
    06/13/2009,21:01,415,5372,0,0,91,Page#2 Thread(31 of 60)
    06/13/2009,21:16,410,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,21:31,402,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,21:46,391,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,22:01,377,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,22:16,356,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,22:31,351,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,22:46,352,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,23:01,350,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,23:16,354,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,23:31,368,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/13/2009,23:46,369,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/14/2009,00:01,366,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/14/2009,00:16,383,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/14/2009,00:31,394,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/14/2009,00:46,396,5372,0,0,96,Page#2 Thread(36 of 60)
    06/14/2009,01:01,394,5372,0,0,99,Page#2 Thread(39 of 60)
    06/14/2009,01:16,389,5372,0,0,99,Page#2 Thread(39 of 60)
    06/14/2009,01:31,381,5372,0,0,102,Page#2 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/14/2009,01:47,386,5372,0,0,102,Page#2 Thread(42 of 60)
    06/14/2009,02:02,388,5374,2,-2,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,02:17,377,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,02:32,356,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,02:47,340,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,03:02,339,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,03:17,340,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,03:32,342,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,03:47,354,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,04:02,336,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,04:17,330,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,04:32,325,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,04:47,307,5374,0,0,104,Page#2 Thread(44 of 60)
    06/14/2009,05:02,316,5376,2,-2,107,Page#2 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/14/2009,05:17,305,5376,0,0,107,Page#2 Thread(47 of 60)
    06/14/2009,05:32,318,5377,1,-1,108,Page#2 Thread(48 of 60)
    06/14/2009,05:47,326,5377,0,0,108,Page#2 Thread(48 of 60)
    06/14/2009,06:02,333,5377,0,0,108,Page#2 Thread(48 of 60)
    06/14/2009,06:17,337,5377,0,0,108,Page#2 Thread(48 of 60)
    06/14/2009,06:32,340,5377,0,0,110,Page#2 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/14/2009,06:47,337,5377,0,0,110,Page#2 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/14/2009,07:02,329,5377,0,0,110,Page#2 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/14/2009,07:17,324,5377,0,0,110,Page#2 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/14/2009,07:32,321,5377,0,0,110,Page#2 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/14/2009,07:47,319,5377,0,0,110,Page#2 Thread(50 of 60)
    06/14/2009,08:02,320,5376,-1,1,112,Page#2 Thread(52 of 60)
    06/14/2009,08:18,318,5376,0,0,112,Page#2 Thread(52 of 60)
    06/14/2009,08:33,317,5376,0,0,112,Page#2 Thread(52 of 60)
    06/14/2009,08:48,339,5376,0,0,112,Page#2 Thread(52 of 60)
    06/14/2009,09:03,358,5376,0,0,112,Page#2 Thread(52 of 60)
    06/14/2009,09:18,374,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,09:33,396,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,09:48,403,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,10:03,410,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,10:18,420,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,10:33,442,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,10:48,416,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,11:03,443,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,11:18,452,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,11:33,449,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,11:48,460,5376,0,0,113,Page#2 Thread(53 of 60)
    06/14/2009,12:03,468,5377,1,-1,119,Page#2 Thread(59 of 60)
    06/14/2009,12:18,486,5377,0,0,121,Page#3 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/14/2009,12:33,485,5377,0,0,1,Page#1 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/14/2009,12:48,491,5377,0,0,1,Page#1 Thread(1 of 60)
    06/14/2009,13:03,489,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,13:18,484,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,13:33,496,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,13:48,495,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,14:04,480,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,14:19,476,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,14:34,475,5377,0,0,3,Page#1 Thread(3 of 60)
    06/14/2009,14:49,462,5377,0,0,5,Page#1 Thread(5 of 60)
    06/14/2009,15:04,457,5377,0,0,9,Page#1 Thread(9 of 60)
    06/14/2009,15:19,454,5377,0,0,9,Page#1 Thread(9 of 60)
    06/14/2009,15:34,450,5377,0,0,9,Page#1 Thread(9 of 60)
    06/14/2009,15:49,457,5377,0,0,9,Page#1 Thread(9 of 60)
    06/14/2009,16:04,443,5378,1,-1,11,Page#1 Thread(11 of 60)
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    I've watched the WSO Forum for more than 3 years now and say that
    most of the whining/complaining comes from the amount of time WSO's
    stay on the first two pages. This is the real problem with most warriors.

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Overkill, Mikey!

      look with disapproval on anyone who wants to be discerning
      There are bars and restaurants that I can't afford to go to - no problem. There are others I CAN visit and enjoy.

      Separating "discerning" from "agenda" is the trick. This is perhaps the first thread I've seen (or remember) on this topic of "exclusivity" that wasn't started by someone feeling their products don't get enough exposure due to the riff-raff.

      The WSO section is not the same - it has changed with the forum membership and is larger and crowded and loud - but it ain't broken. It's like visiting a thrift shop - once in a while you find a real treasure.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Overkill, Mikey!
        kay
        Kay, So ture and I'm sorry for that.

        I know if I hadn't done that someone would have asked me for more info and
        then they would have asked me what John had for breakfast that day and I
        didn't have the info to answer.

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael

        Going back to Hooters now where I'm liked!
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        It's like visiting a thrift shop - once in a while you find a real treasure.
        Somehow I get the feeling those words will never appear in a headline advertising the WSO section.

        I know there's a benefit hidden in plain sight in that text, but from a customer standpoint it does beg the question..."Couldn't you have aimed a little higher?" :rolleyes:

        ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Diamonds float in the WSO category and that is because of the honest reviews given by Warriors. It's not hard to separate yourself from crapola here. I don't see a need for a premium category here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    I would like to see the bumping go away. Also you can only run the same WSO twice per month and have to post it over again. The wso's should fall out of the forum completely after a time - say 2 - 3 weeks.

    This would put things on level ground IMO.

    We would see different WSO's all the time instead of the same thng jumping to the top all the time. This gets everyone noticed more.

    Just my two cents. Maybe that is what it is worth.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tim,
      This would put things on level ground IMO.
      Things are level there right now.

      Michael M,
      I've watched the WSO Forum for more than 3 years now and say that most of the whining/complaining comes from the amount of time WSO's stay on the first two pages. This is the real problem with most warriors.
      Yep. They want the same value for the ad money that section used to deliver. It's still a great deal, but not like it was. And that's because everyone wants in on it, but most of them don't want to play the game in the fashion that created that value in the first place.

      Can't have it both ways.

      Michael O,
      Now, if you were to say you can get into the premium WSO section by offering a % of sales, then that evens out the playing field for all players.
      Why would it be bad to have a separate section that some people couldn't afford? If the product is that good, it could be sold in the regular section to raise the money, and collect comments and reviews at the same time.

      There isn't going to be any such section, I don't think. I'm discussing this purely to get the ideas out there.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Michael O,Why would it be bad to have a separate section that some people couldn't afford? If the product is that good, it could be sold in the regular section to raise the money, and collect comments and reviews at the same time.

        There isn't going to be any such section, I don't think. I'm discussing this purely to get the ideas out there.


        Paul
        There wouldn't be anything wrong with doing it that way. That's also kind of my point about the way things are now, and that is to use the current WSO section as something to build from.

        I still hold that the best products can and do stand out in the WSO section, all in all.

        Then there's the idea that others have mentioned about it not being a good idea to further divide the WSO section, so why is it that this division isn't being counted as a division?

        All the best,
        Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      I would like to see the bumping go away.
      I'd like to see bumping time-limited, I'd like you to get only a limited number of bumps per WSO, and I'd like to see a limit on how many active WSOs you can have.

      I don't think it would be terrible if we were to say something like "one user may launch or bump one WSO each week, no WSO may be bumped more than ten times, and you may not have more than ten active WSOs."

      Between launches and bumps, that's a little over two years before you could max it out. And if you push your WSO for more than two months, you have to let it drop off the front pages to make room for newer stuff.

      I think that would be positive and productive.

      Of course, it's not my forum, is it?
      Signature
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      • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I'd like to see bumping time-limited, I'd like you to get only a limited number of bumps per WSO, and I'd like to see a limit on how many active WSOs you can have.

        I don't think it would be terrible if we were to say something like "one user may launch or bump one WSO each week, no WSO may be bumped more than ten times, and you may not have more than ten active WSOs."

        Between launches and bumps, that's a little over two years before you could max it out. And if you push your WSO for more than two months, you have to let it drop off the front pages to make room for newer stuff.

        I think that would be positive and productive.

        Of course, it's not my forum, is it?
        To me that makes no sense. John Taylor bumps the same four WSO's everyday. I dont see where telling John, "Sorry, you have to create a new WSO everyday," is profitable to him or anyone else. DO I get a little upset when I bump a WSO, then John bumps four right after me? I used to. But I got over it. I dont want the ability to slow down some one else's growth.

        I dont understand all you guys complaing about a "level playing field." Right now, every body is on the same playing field. Once your WSO goes to page three, you may bump. The same goes for every WSO poster. Seems pretty level to me.

        I think the backlash to the limited bumps would not be great, fantastic wonderful WSO's all the time. I think it will be career WSOers and spammers creating gobs of new WSO's every day to keep up with the bump rule.

        I guess I see the downside to the limited bump idea as tons more crappy worthless WSO's. Then you will have to wonder which ones are legit and which are just WSO's to make the poster money.

        Right now, thanks to all the bumps, we get tons of reviews that allow us to know which WSO's are worthwhile. Take away the ability for a WSO to get lots of exposure and you take away the ability for it to get muliple reviews. Great, so then everyone would be on a level field. No one would be able to get enough reviews good or bad in a short amount of time (unless you had a list ). That is not a good level field cause it leaves the buyer without a clear direction as to which WSO to purchase.

        Also, you are going to see teams of WSO sellers teaming up asking other members to email their list about each others WSO's. Then, only those warriors with connections can get traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Green
    I agree with Oksa, but I don't agree with premium and price ideas. A ton of people here have fantastic products at very low prices. It's almost sad to see them give away the projects they work so hard on. You never know if a product is great or if it's OK. I wish people would supply a sample of their products more often. Testimonials in the wso copy do nothing for me anymore. Testimonials that people post themselves I like, makes me feel like I am really seeing what someone thinks, not just how they relate to the project owner.

    I started a different thread, not related to premium wso's but a few other ideas about accessing the wso's we want to see http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...recommend.html

    I do wish there was a rating section or at least a reviews required section that somewhat tells me the real quality. For instance 10 warriors reviewed this product 3 have something good to say, they are name, name, name, and then I can tell if they are newbies or whomever. Of course there is no way to really do this, but it would be nice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
    You could make a requirement of at least 90 days membership to WF and at least X number of posts and X number of thank yous.

    Then set the price to be a minimum of say, 30 dollars, to incentivize WSO creators to build a more premium experience rather than a "HEY LOOK AT ME I MAKE MONEY ONLINE USING THIS GHETTO ASS STRATEGY BUY NOW ONLY 5 DOLLARS!"

    I see where he is going with this one.

    After all, I have probably spent hundreds on WSO's and most of them are the same crap.

    Write articles, do videos, do forum marketing, blah blah blah.

    Novel idea, maybe send it over to Allen.
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    • Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post

      Then set the price to be a minimum of say, 30 dollars, to incentivize WSO creators to build a more premium experience rather than a "HEY LOOK AT ME I MAKE MONEY ONLINE USING THIS GHETTO ASS STRATEGY BUY NOW ONLY 5 DOLLARS!"
      I have seen some great PLR and other types of WSO's that sell for $7, at least in the beginning. Raising the prices would be bad for those sellers. Since some WSO's are very niche, like PLR, those sellers need more exposure than other types of WSO's. They might need three bumps to get the sales that other WSO's get in one bump.

      Raising the price would really hurt those sellers, or put an end to cheap, good quality PLR in the WSO forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Green
    Although it seems to be a much different topic as I have little interest in a premium section and Im more concerned about people finding what they are looking for. Because I personally get annoyed at all of the wso's that I have no idea what they are based on their ad, I opened a different thread, this is what I posted:

    I've noticed wso's aren't staying on the front page as long anymore and the front page is very long, almost a little overwhelming. Of course this could just be me, but I was wondering...

    1. Who thinks it would be a good idea to split the WSO section into services and products? 1 wso area for services, 1 for products?

    2. Wouldn't it be nice if at the top of the forum there was a streaming update of all front page wso's randomly, even the top couple of pages? Seems like that would boost sales for everyone and people would find things they didn't realize they NEEDED I'm thinking just a line or two..

    3. An rss feed of keywords to subscribe to. Meaning you choose you want wso's with plr in them and you get a feed of those wso's

    Of course, there doesn't need to be any updates, just a few things I thought of...

    The thread was closed, but I am able to post it here, though it seems quite different than the already in progress discussion.

    Mary
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  • Mary, go back and read this thread. Your topic has already been discussed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I dont understand all you guys complaing about a "level playing field." Right now, every body is on the same playing field. Once your WSO goes to page three, you may bump. The same goes for every WSO poster. Seems pretty level to me.
      I agree with that though I also have said I think bumps and WSO life should perhaps be limited...but it's not a big deal.

      It costs $20 to run a WSO - for everyone. What kind of classified ad anywhere else could you buy for $20 that would get the exposure to a highly targeted market as the WSO section offers?

      I don't buy WSOs that don't clearly say what they are - or where the claims seem too good to be true or where there are promises of big money fast for everyone...or from those who just joined clearly to run WSOs.

      If I want to find WSOs on a certain topic/category, I use the forum search and usually get what I want.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        There are already at least two ways to find out about the latest WSOs or to search for a particular topic or to be notified of a certain Warrior's offerings. One of these is through WSOPro, or whatever Mike Lantz's program is. You can register with his site and get an email for all sorts of things like specific Warriors, etc.

        Or you can buy Michael Mayo's software (look in his sig, I believe it's still there). With that, you can put in what you are looking for and it will spit out at you a list of all listed WSOs that contain your search strand.

        As to buying crap, there is a process to help you with that - read the reviews, first of all. See if anyone you TRUST has commented. If not and you buy and find it is crap, get a refund. And post in the thread that it is crap (well, put it better than that).

        If everyone actually went back and gave their feedback, especially the negative, we wouldn't have to wonder. But too many are afraid to leave negative feedback so when that person keeps producing and offering crap here, you can pat yourself on the back and feel good about helping to build the crap peddler's business.

        And sorry, but anyone who is buying dozens or hundreds of crap WSOs, needs to look in the mirror. The problem isn't with the WSOs, it's within yourself.

        Tina
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

          Or you can buy Michael Mayo's software (look in his sig, I believe it's still there). With that, you can put in what you are looking for and it will spit out at you a list of all listed WSOs that contain your search strand.
          Yup, that's what I use. It's a handy-dandy little app.
          Signature

          Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        If I want to find WSOs on a certain topic/category, I use the forum search and usually get what I want.

        kay
        Really,
        Why? You have a better tool?
        Michael shakes his head and walks away quietly...

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        Michael starts work on a memory course for his friend.

        PS. Tina, are you married? Ooops, never mind I am! Thanks!
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  • I use WarriorPlus and Google alerts to keep up with WSos in areas that really interest me. What I buy is virtually always good, because I buy what I need or can help me.

    What I love about the WSO forum is that I can buy very specific information on areas that I just can't find elsewhere.

    I've bought stuff on Adwords that talks about things I've never seen in top end products. The WSO forum gives a voice to a lot of very specialist things that can really help out people marketing things and doing business in general.

    I can't even tell you how much money I have made because of purchases I have made here.

    The downside of it is you have to exercise some personal judgement in buying because there is so much on the WSO forum of awful to astounding quality.

    The search facilities are already there. Apart from that, I worry any extra complexity will just give scammers extra room to practise their fakery.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      This is just my 2 cents so don't take this as anything more than that.

      The way I see it, there are two problems, not with the WSO forum itself,
      but with SOME of the mindsets of SOME of the people that go there. If
      this isn't you, please don't take this personally.

      1. No sense of purpose or direction

      A person goes in there and essentially wanders aimlessly. This can rarely
      lead to any good, even if you find something of value.

      Why?

      If you have no direction and purpose to begin with, what direction and
      purpose are you going to have for actually putting together a plan of
      action?

      When I go to the WSO forum, as a buyer (which is rarely) it is because
      I have decided that there is something in particular that I want.

      Now, we get to the issue of finding things...which brings us to point 2.

      2. Failure To Use Search Function

      I'm not going to assess blame here as far as whether it's because the
      person doesn't know HOW to use it or just doesn't WANT to use it. Either
      way, they don't use it.

      So, what happens, even if they know what they're looking for, they get
      frustrated by having to go through, page by page, the forum itself.

      Had they used the search function that the forum provides for them, this
      wouldn't be an issue.

      Okay, so how can sellers help with these two problems?

      Well, you can't give people direction or purpose BEFORE they get to
      actually see your offer...BUT...you can make your offer stand out, not
      so much for the "hype" factor, but for what it is you're actually offering.

      Some people have made some excellent suggestions in this area such
      as having the beginning of your thread title start out with something
      like SOFTWARE, GRAPHICS PACK, etc.

      At least this way, with a preface that is easily picked out, scanning the
      WSO forum itself becomes a snap.

      I don't believe that the forum itself should FORCE this, but imagine what
      kind of an advantage you, as a seller would have, if you clearly marked
      what your offer was.

      Again, this is just my 2 cents and not to be taken as gospel. It may or
      may not help make the WSO forum a better place if buyers and sellers
      would do a little more on their end to help it along.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        When I go to the WSO forum, as a buyer (which is rarely) it is because I have decided that there is something in particular that I want.
        Just a quick vote from my end to see how other people respond...

        I never go to the WSO forum. I go straight to specific WSO threads.

        Every single WSO that I even consider buying is in someone's signature.

        If it's not in your sig, I wlll probably never even see it - let alone buy it - unless someone I know gets it, loves it, and starts gushing at me about how cool it is. And even then, chances are slim.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


          Every single WSO that I even consider buying is in someone's signature.
          The problem is, not all of us are signature whores. There are well respected members here who run WSO's but do not advertise those WSO's in the main forum using signatures. Some one that comes to mind is Andy Henry. He doesnt seem to put WSO's in his signature. I also do not put WSO's in my sig. any more.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Charles Montgomery View Post

            The problem is, not all of us are signature whores.
            Why is that a problem?

            You have a WSO, it's not in your sig, I don't buy it.

            What's the problem?
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Nope, I'm stuck between these two at the moment? lol...

          OR

          I'm Not quite sure yet?...lol
          Which do you prefer?
          Wow, Michael! Make that first one a brunette with glasses and it would look just like me! Well, the hair would need to be longer, too.

          Tina
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      And people wonder why some threads get deleted or locked without comment.

      Other than the OP, there hasn't been a single suggestion brought up in this whole thread that hasn't previously been beaten into a dark, oily spot where the dead horse used to be.

      Yes, they're offered with the best intentions. Yes, they mostly seem like sensible ideas. Yes, each of them would offer some benefit to a limited group. I can only recall one that would be practical from a technical standpoint and also improve things for the majority of people in the group. And that one has other complications.

      Re-read Charles' post. He's nailed the problem with the category idea precisely. That approach would kill the whole concept.

      The challenge is the nature of the section. It isn't like other marketplaces, and never has been. It's structurally a very simple thing, of course. The trick is the mindset that's developed over the years. It started out as a place for Warrior members to offer their products at exclusive discounts to other Warriors. That was the ONLY category requirement.

      People would check it out to see what cool surprise was lurking. And they checked often, since a lot of them were very time-limited. The reason the quality was so high on most offers is that they weren't "Made for WSO" products. They had to have legs under them, to make it in the broader market.

      You didn't see the kind of nasty desperation that happens now if you yank an offer that breaks the rules. Nobody depended on the WSO section for their income, because they had to be selling the stuff elsewhere to qualify. So, you didn't have the screaming newbies and blatant lies (read: income claims).

      The nature of the offers changed when a few people, thinking they were clever, started pushing the WSO section as a part of their paid products. That led to an influx of folks from one of the other popular forums. The culture of that other forum is very different from this one. (Note: Not better or worse. Just different.)

      That didn't change the "find the surprise" element, which is how a lot of people use that section.

      At some point, the system will reach a balance on its own, based on the speed at which offers scroll off to page 3. The natural tendency of markets will move that toward the point at which the average seller makes back the cost of the ad. Barring adjustments to fight that tendency, that would bring in a different kind of seller: The person who understands the long term value of a new customer.

      We're seeing some of that already. Steven pointed out one technique for making it work based on that thinking. The recurring membership approach is another, although there's a limit to how many of those the system will support.

      None of this is clean and linear, and all of it is subject to changes to the system itself. The culture is part of the system. We can do some things to maintain a positive culture, like restricting offers that involve breaking the TOS of other sites. That's small stuff, with potentially large long-term effects. The RIGHT NOW stuff is determined by the people who buy WSOs.

      If you don't buy certain things, they'll become much less common in that marketplace.

      There will always be odd influences, but their impact will be controlled, in the long term, by how people choose to buy. If you see a lot of something happening, and the sellers keep bumping those offers, there's a reason. We, as a group, are supporting them.

      Don't blame the sellers for that. Look at what it tells you about your peers.

      If you look at each suggestion made in the light of what you just read, and think in terms of the overall good of the group and the inevitable presence of people who will try to beat the system, you'll be able to figure out how most of the ideas would affect things.

      It's a system. People interact with systems in mostly predictable ways.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Oh... my original point in that last post...

        People are largely similar. That's why we see the same suggestions and the same discussions coming up over and over and over again. They don't know that 10,000 others have made the same arguments and had the same ideas.

        Sometimes threads get deleted or locked because we know that they're going to tend in a direction that's not useful overall. Yes, it's possible that someone will come up with the amazing new thought that makes a huge difference. But if the same thing has been hammered on dozens of times before, it's sufficiently unlikely that the use of time and resources becomes a bad bet.

        Doesn't mean the topic or the motives are bad. Just that it's going to turn into a time sink for everyone involved.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        And people wonder why some threads get deleted or locked without comment.

        Other than the OP, there hasn't been a single suggestion brought up in this whole thread that hasn't previously been beaten into a dark, oily spot where the dead horse used to be.

        Yes, they're offered with the best intentions. Yes, they mostly seem like sensible ideas. Yes, each of them would offer some benefit to a limited group. I can only recall one that would be practical from a technical standpoint and also improve things for the majority of people in the group. And that one has other complications.

        Re-read Charles' post. He's nailed the problem with the category idea precisely. That approach would kill the whole concept.

        The challenge is the nature of the section. It isn't like other marketplaces, and never has been. It's structurally a very simple thing, of course. The trick is the mindset that's developed over the years. It started out as a place for Warrior members to offer their products at exclusive discounts to other Warriors. That was the ONLY category requirement.

        People would check it out to see what cool surprise was lurking. And they checked often, since a lot of them were very time-limited. The reason the quality was so high on most offers is that they weren't "Made for WSO" products. They had to have legs under them, to make it in the broader market.

        You didn't see the kind of nasty desperation that happens now if you yank an offer that breaks the rules. Nobody depended on the WSO section for their income, because they had to be selling the stuff elsewhere to qualify. So, you didn't have the screaming newbies and blatant lies (read: income claims).

        The nature of the offers changed when a few people, thinking they were clever, started pushing the WSO section as a part of their paid products. That led to an influx of folks from one of the other popular forums. The culture of that other forum is very different from this one. (Note: Not better or worse. Just different.)

        That didn't change the "find the surprise" element, which is how a lot of people use that section.

        At some point, the system will reach a balance on its own, based on the speed at which offers scroll off to page 3. The natural tendency of markets will move that toward the point at which the average seller makes back the cost of the ad. Barring adjustments to fight that tendency, that would bring in a different kind of seller: The person who understands the long term value of a new customer.

        We're seeing some of that already. Steven pointed out one technique for making it work based on that thinking. The recurring membership approach is another, although there's a limit to how many of those the system will support.

        None of this is clean and linear, and all of it is subject to changes to the system itself. The culture is part of the system. We can do some things to maintain a positive culture, like restricting offers that involve breaking the TOS of other sites. That's small stuff, with potentially large long-term effects. The RIGHT NOW stuff is determined by the people who buy WSOs.

        If you don't buy certain things, they'll become much less common in that marketplace.

        There will always be odd influences, but their impact will be controlled, in the long term, by how people choose to buy. If you see a lot of something happening, and the sellers keep bumping those offers, there's a reason. We, as a group, are supporting them.

        Don't blame the sellers for that. Look at what it tells you about your peers.

        If you look at each suggestion made in the light of what you just read, and think in terms of the overall good of the group and the inevitable presence of people who will try to beat the system, you'll be able to figure out how most of the ideas would affect things.

        It's a system. People interact with systems in mostly predictable ways.


        Paul
        I'm sorry, Paul, I'm still honestly not getting your position.

        Are you for a premium section? Which would be an ADDITIONAL section.

        Or are you against additional sections.

        I re-read your posts and I'm still confused.

        Another thought on the question you asked me earlier. What difference does it make as to the FORM of the payment? I thought it was a good compromise, and would solve some problems that were raised (though it would create other problems).

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    Hello,

    Don't Worry about mods to much, make the offer to list more like 35.00 and then
    no offers that are less than 50.00 allowed in this section.

    If someone selling a 7.00 item wants to try and put a 50.00 tag on it after wasting 35.00 they will stop.

    You need to have a price where is you sell one you can make some money and it pays the ad fee at the same time.

    Richard Dean
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    5 Minute Mobile Sites... My Next WSO Comming Soon.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Michael,

      The confusion is probably because I continued to discuss the merits of the idea even after discarding it in my mind as a workable option. (Note: "In my mind." I don't make the decisions on this stuff.)
      What difference does it make as to the FORM of the payment? I thought it was a good compromise, and would solve some problems that were raised (though it would create other problems).
      Look at the second to last paragraph in what you just quoted and you'll see the answer right there. Think like a crook for a moment. It will become obvious.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Michael,

        The confusion is probably because I continued to discuss the merits of the idea even after discarding it in my mind as a workable option. (Note: "In my mind." I don't make the decisions on this stuff.)
        I see. That makes sense. As long as we are discussing it on that level, no problem.

        (I know that. I don't either. But it's a good reminder for those who think you are the only decision maker here. )

        Look at the second to last paragraph in what you just quoted and you'll see the answer right there. Think like a crook for a moment. It will become obvious.

        Paul
        Sorry, I tried, I really couldn't see the angle. No problem there either, I will take your word for it.

        As far as categorization goes, I see it as a bad idea myself. And I see proof of it as well. If it was a really good idea, I think savvy sellers would be using tags in front of their offers. You see it every now and then, but it's a rarity. I bet there's a reason why it hardly happens.

        On the other hand, if people were forced to add a tag at the front of their WSO, they would either: complain, get it wrong, or try to find a way to make their offer fit under the wrong tag. So, that wouldn't work either.

        You know, the more I think of possible "improvements", the more I think the WSO is pretty darn good. It's not perfect, and never will be, but every "improvement" already seems to have a better solution already in place in the current WSO section.

        Good stuff to think about, though.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Michael,
          But it's a good reminder for those who think you are the only decision maker here.
          You would not believe how many people forget that, as far as this place goes, I'm just one of the moderators. I don't make policy - at all. That's Allen's thing.

          It's funny, at least to me, to see people running around screaming about how I banned them unjustly when it wasn't me that banned them at all. I discuss the role more than most moderators, so folks tend to forget that there are a whole bunch of us.
          If it was a really good idea, I think savvy sellers would be using tags in front of their offers.
          Tags distract from the headline. That's why they aren't used more.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    This whole higher priced section will only create a perceived value area where other
    warriors will think that the product/service being offered is worth more than it might
    actually be worth. It creates a false sense of security allowing scammers an avenue to do
    their dirty work.

    Example: JoeScammer starts a WSO in the Elite section of the WSO forum and
    charges $497 for his/her stuff(what ever it may be) and then leaves after the first
    purchase. The $50....$100 was a drop in the bucket to them. Next they
    come back under a different name and do it again. What happens? Most likely
    the same thing.

    I think after reading this thread more than 5 times I know what I need to do inorder
    to start a site that won't solve all the problems but will indeed limit/alleviate
    many of them.

    Will I do it? I'm really not sure now.(Thanks, Paul and the other members for all your
    input)

    This is exactly why I love coming to the Warrior forum. You can discuss things that
    other wise may take you years to figure out on your own.

    Have a great Day!
    Michael

    PS. Richard, Thanks for changing your avatar...lol The gal was starting to freak
    me out!
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  • Profile picture of the author Cherry SEO
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Cherry SEO View Post

      nice and good...i like it
      You think everything is "nice and good... i like it" so I don't know I'd rely on your recommendations.

      You know what I like? The report post key.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Gill, LOL... Now you have me waisting time trying to find the darn post!!!
    Finger itching/hovering... ?

    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Why? You have a better tool?
      I know I do - just displaying my forgetfulness as sometimes I forget to use it!
      But - I seldom look for WSOs, to be truthful.

      kay
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      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I know I do - just displaying my forgetfulness as sometimes I forget to use it!
        But - I seldom look for WSOs, to be truthful.

        kay
        Wait till I make your next avatar! ...lol

        Oh, just wait... J/K

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        Darn Yunguns...
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Michael,
      Gill, LOL... Now you have me waisting time trying to find the darn post!!!
      She reported it while I was nuking the account.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Dang it! That's all I've got. Just, Dang it!

    Good job as usual Paul. You too Jill. (your prior name misspelling was intensional) payback...lol

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Wait till I make your next avatar! ...lol
      That would be old, decrepit and forgetful??? ROFLMAO
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        That would be old, decrepit and forgetful??? ROFLMAO
        Nope, I'm stuck between these two at the moment? lol...

        OR

        I'm Not quite sure yet?...lol
        Which do you prefer?

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author kos818
    Hi,

    I agree with Pauls
    Without the review factor, it's just the same as raising the price on WSOs, which is a non-starter. All the scammers have the money to pay it, while not everyone who's offering a legit service does at the start.
    and Spuds
    As i sell my products cheaply and limit the quantity i personally couldnt afford to pay $100 for an ad.
    .

    The WSO section is covered with products that aren't worth the money asked and so is, only in my oppinion, the WSO Plus section (no offense here, only my thoughts AFTER buying loads of WSO mentioned in the WSO Plus mails). Maybe a forced money back garantuee would do it. Ok, there are scammers and freebie searchers arround, but IMHO that would be the better way to go. If I bought a product here only for figuring out that it wasn't worth the money, I have the hazzle asking for a refund (only did it once, because the sales copy was way to good and the product didn't deliver what was promissed (it was for newbies)) and others still might have the same issues.

    What I would love to see would be a kind of rating. 1-2 days AFTER I purchased a WSO (should read that I have had time to evaluate it) I get an email for rating the WSO and other factors included. There is thread rating for sure, but who has used it before? I didn't and I spend quite a bunch of time on WF. The problem with the WSO section is the same as with every marketplace on the internet: I might give away something for free (talk about review copies) and get a more or less honest review for it. I'd rather expect GREAT feedback from sbdy. got it for free. In love and IM everything seems fair, but IF I would sell some rubbish, their might be quite a bunch of people believing in the great reviews my WSO got, only for figuring out on their own that my buddies left them...

    Also the point with "loads of vies == high quality" doesn't work. I've been making a living online since 2001, but did most of my work in Germany. Should read I have nearly no list I could inform about my great WSO. The only thing I can do is bumping my WSO, while re-investing the money I might have made. You have to spend money when you want to make money for sure, but as said above a scammer could afford it with ease while others would be struggeling.

    And before I go back to "work" I have a last question: I started my first WSO 2 days ago and IMHO it needs bumps to get back to the first page and not only comments posted by OTHERS, right? Don't get me wrong, I don't expect my own comments to work like a bump, but in every other forum new content is automatically displayed on page one. So everything I see on page one is bumped or brand new. I might be wrong, but my WSO got some comments without my offer moving anywhere then next to page 3, where I am supposed to make a bump for not leaving the money I already invested in product creation and listing on the table. As said, I am new to the WSO section, as I made my money from freelance work (and as it sucks I changed to the "a launch a day keeps debts away" approach <-- but I couldn't afford bumping 20 products each day without seeing results ;-)).

    Best
    Sven
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    Nothing to sell...
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