Wordpress to sue Thesis creators

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Would Wordpress Sue The Maker Of Thesis, A Leading Wordpress Theme? – with Chris Pearson and Matt Mullenweg

Matt Mullenweg (Wordpress creator) reckons that themes and plugins that 'extend' WordPress violate the GPL if they are not themselves distributed under the GPL.

According to Matt, Thesis should be under the GPL and the owner is not happy about it. WordPress is willing to sue the maker of Thesis theme for not following GPL licensing. The webmasters and Thesis owners are also confused with new development.

Mark Jaquith wrote a technical analysis of why Wordpress themes inherit the GPL. This is why even if Thesis hadn't copy-and-pasted large swathes of code from WordPress (and GPL plugins) its PHP would still need to be under the GPL.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #creators #sue #thesis #wordpress
  • Well, that's interesting.

    If they follow through with this, other themes and frameworks would need to joind Thesis on the chopping block.
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    • I totally agree. It seems as if they're all a mish mosh of each other in some way.
  • Like Shane said, that's very interesting.

    But I wonder if that's the case with themes, what about plugins??
  • Oh, that's some interesting news.
    Especially considering that the Thesis creator has built his business on this...
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
    • [1] reply
  • As far as I can see there's no basis for WordPress to sue Thesis, unless something else has taken place that's been kept under the wraps.

    The GPL licence allows people who use code licenced under it to freely extend, alter or adapt the code and to give it away free or for a price.

    Thesis has created an extension to the WordPress code and is giving it away for a price - no offence there.

    I'd actually say that Thesis has more of a case against WordPress because of Matt Mullenweg trying to poach Thesis customers (and potential customers) with offers of free frameworks specifically targetted at Thesis users - full details on Twitter #thesiswp.

    Cheers,

    Martin.
    • [1] reply
    • Looks like the dispute is not about the fact that Thesis is sold but rather that it violates the GPL because it's not itself distributed under the GPL.

      It will be very interesting to know what comes out of this.
  • Steeping in the footsteps of Joomla, which did exactly this only 1 year ago.
  • Thesis has gone partially GPL (only parts of the thesis code) as of a few hours ago.

    WordPress Theme Thesis Maker Backs Down, Adopts GPL
  • Do you think it's going to have a knock-on effect for other themes? What about plugins? Since themes ride on the WP core featureset the distintion, technically, between a plugin and a theme isn't exactly black and white.
  • What will happen to us; thesis lovers?
  • I am pretty sure that is why the Revolution Themes switched to the name Studio Press a while ago and made their themes GPL. Yes, they still charge, but they charge for support, not the themes.
  • I have a slightly off-topic question here... How does going GPL (partially or completely) affect Thesis' business?
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    • So basically WP wants Thesis to adopt the GPL. Which wouldn't affect Thesis' ability to charge for their theme, but would allow for others to copy, change, improve, etc. Thesis and distribute it. Is that correct? Or am I missing something?
      • [1] reply
  • Just a few remarks, if I may...

    There is nothing new, even if for some people this sounded like a novelty.
    WP announced their stand more than a year ago:
    WordPress › News Themes are GPL, too

    RE: plugins - there is another post on the WP Dev Blog:
    WordPress › News Canonical Plugins (Say What?)
    (although no clear answer regarding whether they have to be GPL or not)

    For Thesis and WP lovers - as end users none of this should affect you.

    As for Thesis business... err, it none of our business
  • Thesis backed down yesterday afternoon, and now has a partial GPL and is in compliance.
    • [1] reply
    • For the record there are two separate issues here that deserve to be addressed distinctly.

      The first is whether the Thesis theme has actually included any GPL code in the theme itself. This comment is apparently from an ex-developer of Thesis who claims that is has, which would mean the code it was included in is almost certainly caught by the GPL.

      The larger and I believe much more important question is whether a theme or plugin that doesn't contain any code from Wordpress and is distributed separately should inherit the license of Wordpress.

      Although the stance of the Wordpress developers is that it should, there are legal opinions that suggest it probably should not, such as this one on derivative works (and I believe the entire argument hinges on this concept).

      Here is an interesting experiment: Imagine that someone wrote a new blog platform from scratch that was compatible with the current Wordpress themes and plugins. Does that suddenly make all those themes and plugins derivative works of the new platform as well? The concept is clearly absurd.

      BTW IANAL

      Phil
      • [1] reply
  • WordPress Theme Thesis Maker Backs Down, Adopts GPL
  • I have never understood why the GPL somehow makes it okay for me to tell someone else what he can or cannot do with code he wrote.

    "You looked at my code. Now I get to tell you what you can do with yours."

    It's sick and wrong and Richard Stallman needs to be drawn and quartered for this crap.
    • [2] replies
    • That's not nice. Now sing along with the video below and become indoctrinated - You know you want to!

      YouTube - Richard Stallman - Free Software Song
    • Stallman made a good license with gpl 2 and then had to cause a big fracas over gpl 3 and its extensive viralness. Has pissed off virtually every corporate sponsor who has tried to dump serious money into development.

      Now Wordpress has opened a nasty can of worms for themselves when they have to issue a stance on plugins. Imagine wishlist or many other paid plugins who have to either make there own api and connector so it stands alone to be able to charge or release their code. See the sad fact is the support model SUCKS when it comes to software. Unless your Microsoft.
      • [1] reply
  • Open source is an inherently socialist concept.

    It runs counter to the idea of intellectual property, and forces the revenue model to solely being based on direct labor hours.

    This is, of course, a commodity, and will eventually find the lowest common denominator - removing profitability from any equasion.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
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    • Only in the GPL sense. The MIT and BSD licences allow you to use their code however you like, and still protect your own intellectual property. Several other licences, including the Apache and PHP licensing, have similar room for commercial efforts that protect developer IP.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
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  • Sooo, what does that mean?

    You no longer have to buy the developer version to use it on as many sites as you own?

    Roger
  • I'm a little confused too. So now if you are under the GPL, you can only charge for the support given to the product (in this case, the theme) rather than the actual product itself?

    As this is because the GPL is for non profit purposes?

    So what, Thesis is supposedly free for all now?

    And if NOT, then what's the big hooha? Thesis's owner is still gonna make the monies anyways.

    Pardon my ignorance.
    • [1] reply
    • You can charge for it.

      You just can't stop anyone else from selling it themselves and charging for it.

      Or not charging for it.

      The Free Software Foundation, and its founder Richard Stallman, are very much of the opinion that it is morally wrong to withhold software from the people who want it.

      That doesn't mean you can't ask them for money. It just means that if they don't want to give you that money, they shouldn't be deprived of the software. So either you or someone else should give them the software for less money.

      It's a race to the bottom, where the software itself inevitably becomes a "free bonus" to some sort of service... and the software is deliberately designed to require that service, or else nobody gets paid.

      If I were the Thesis people, I'd sell the graphics. There's no GPL code in the graphics. You can have the theme, sure. But you can't have all the graphics that make it look pretty. Make your own. And suss out which ones you need on your own, too.

      Or buy ours. Oh, hey, look - they cost the same as we were charging for Thesis in the first place. What are the odds.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
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  • From what I understand, Thesis was actually using (old) Wordpress code inside it's framework.

    Thesis has made those few files GPL. The rest of the framework is not.

    So...you can grab the free Thesis GPL 'parts', but you need to pay for the rest to actually make it work.

    It's like getting a free car engine. But you still need to buy the body, seats, hood, doors, etc to assemble it into a running car.

    So Thesis as a whole isn't really GPL. Only a few files are. You still gotta buy the whole thing. Otherwise you'll be taking the bus while a lonely car engine sits in your driveway.
  • I bought Thesis about a year ago. I love it as it's highly customizable. I also own Revolution/Studio Press. Studio Press is my favorite and worth buying for $60 bucks.

    If coders can't charge then the quality will likely go down. I have no problem paying for WP themes and plugins as long as they make me money. Around and around we go....

    Here's my Thesis customized: XtremeMusic – Rock Music News - Love it!
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
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    • Nice blog! I love rock.
      Just a hint: it's too wide for my laptop so I have to scroll right to see al. 980px is so far the best maximum width to use as there are many width just only a 1024 px screen width. See the global stats of w3counter to proof.
  • May be thesis is making more money than wordpress right now
    • [1] reply
    • From StudioPress:

      "The CSS, XHTML PHP, design and any other elements of the StudioPress themes are released under the GPL license and are in total compliance to standards set forth by the authors of that license as well as with WordPress. Theme support will only be given to those who purchase a theme package."


      Basically, you can download the theme for free from "certain places" and still use it legally.
  • Wordpress Noice Themes: APk
  • It seems to me the inevitable result of this series of events will be a restructuring of the way commercial WP themes work.

    I noticed that the distinction Matt Mullenweg outlined was: "Show me WordPress running without Thesis. Then show me Thesis running without WordPress"

    So he says that because Thesis depends on WordPress to be useful it therefore should fall under GPL.

    Okay, fine then.

    So we theme developers, who commit the terrible crime of wanting to be paid for our work and earn a decent living, will have to take a different approach.

    (By the way it takes years upon years upon years to develop the coding and design skills required to create a top level theme.)

    So that we're not expected to work free of charge, we will create website templates that WILL stand alone.

    And then we create a bridge that allows these stand alone website templates to be "WordPress compatible".

    For example, create a WP theme framework that in itself falls under GPL. This alone can be a bare bones butt ugly theme.

    Then within that framework create functionality that can call in the actual template itself, ie. graphics, css, and PHP from a completely separate location.

    Your own layout, design and code is yours to do with what you please. If you don't fancy giving it away and letting others profit from it while you get nothing, you don't have to.

    If your templates work on their own they can't be touched. And there's then no legal issue in making them "WordPress compatible" via your GPL middle layer.

    Heck, while we're at it we might as well make them compatible with any other service we can think of.

    It WordPress wants everyone to share the love then as far as I see that means they don't want all that attention to be solely focused on their platform.

    People need to be paid for their work so somehow they'll find a way. And I have a feeling that in the end this won't have a net positive impact on WordPress.

    Time will tell.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
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    • I say they should take it to court. I'd love to see an IP judge get hold of the GPL. It's basically a coin flip on whether the viral component of the license would ever stand up in court, anyway.
    • Yeah, a ludicrous argument. Show me a Linux application that runs without Linux. Oh, none of them do? So they all must adopt the Linux license then? Bollocks.

      I think so too. Talented developers are creating value and driving the platform forward, and they have the right to charge for their products and let the market decide whether it is acceptable or not.

      Why is there such a huge market for premium themes and plugins in the first place? If the free ones had it covered then the market wouldn't exist at all!

      Instead of stifling the economy and repelling the best talent why the hell not encourage a marketplace of high quality software products?

      I just don't get it. What's the real agenda here?

      As for a WP 'isolation' layer, well if this gets pushed much further I think they are just asking for something disruptive like a "wp-arms-length" plugin and theme converter.

      I would be tempted myself if developing for WP wasn't like playing pick-up sticks with your butt-cheeks.

      Even better - a script that converts WP themes and plugins to another platform. How's that for "sharing the love"? Anyone heard of Concrete5 or Habari ?

      Cheers,

      Phil
      • [1] reply
  • Should be interesting to watch this one playout, but all I see happening is Thesis getting a boatload of links and traffic.

    Aaron wall did the same thing years ago while he was going through legal crap, it put him on the map for sure....
  • I have heard a lot about Thesis theme and a lot of people are using it as well. What is so special about this theme?
  • Do we really need paid wp themes? I don't know why people buy paid themes. Is there any specific advantages?

    Please share.
    • [1] reply
    • not being forced to display someone's link on your pages could be the first reason, I guess...
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    Wordpress to sue Thesis creators

    Would Wordpress Sue The Maker Of Thesis, A Leading Wordpress Theme? – with Chris Pearson and Matt Mullenweg Matt Mullenweg (Wordpress creator) reckons that themes and plugins that 'extend' WordPress violate the GPL if they are not themselves distributed under the GPL.