Argue with a moderator

169 replies
I've been doing this mod thing for a long time (23 years), and I think it's time to clear the air about something that's come up several times in the past 24 hours: Why it's a bad plan to argue with a moderator.

When a post is deleted and you're not banned for it, the odds are that it's just something we know will tend to lead to unproductive and repetitive arguments. That's not personal, and it's not a comment on you in any way. It's just the judgement of someone who's probably been at this a whole lot longer than you.

If you post something that's deleted and you add a comment or start a thread talking about how the mods are "pathetic," "censorious," "heavy-handed," "control freaks," or whatever... it's almost certain to get deleted.

Why?

Much to the surprise of most people, it has nothing to do with our 'fragile' egos. In order to become a moderator here, you need to have a thick skin. Most of us don't give a damn what you think of us. We have a purpose in mind, which is the good of the group as a whole, not ourselves or our (or your) personal convenience.

Here's the deal: When someone calls out a moderator on their decisions, it creates a situation in which there's a direct conflict. That often leads, whether by the originating person or some other party, to the feeling of needing to justify one's self. To prove you're right. In this environment, that incorporates the worst elements of bitter personal feud and general riot.

Most people, once they've stated a position publicly, are incapable of thinking about any position other than the one they've stated. They feel that admitting there might be other legitimate options is somehow an admission of weakness. Stupid, but true. That's called "being invested."

If you've ever fought with a friend or loved one, known you were wrong, and been unable to admit it - you know what that's like. It's not sane, but you do it anyway.

Then there's the 'riot' influence.

As a rule, people will tend to riot when they're angry, they feel that others are supporting them, and they can get away with it with a low chance of personal risk. If the balance shifts enough, most people will become violent under those circumstances. Not all, but most.

Add in the anonymity of the Internet, and you've got a powder keg. All the frustration folks feel with life in general wants to get out, and they'll take any opportunity to express dissatisfaction with how authority figures misuse them. Even when the "authority figures" in question haven't.

Here's where it gets weird. Some percentage of the people who get into those discussions get invested (remember that phrase?) in their positions. They will not, under any circumstances, consider that the other person might have a legitimate position. And, since their egos are involved, they're determined to prove the oppressive authority figure wrong.

The more people who agree with them on some level, the more justified they feel in those positions. In some cases, they're so obsessed that it only takes one person to send them over the edge. People who are otherwise sane (or sometimes not so much) become seriously deranged on the subject. They will do anything and everything they can think of to punish the nasty creatures who dared to embarrass them publicly.

They don't just succumb to the mob mentality. They absorb it. They come to personify it. They literally lose their connection with reality, and their sanity (on the issue in question) goes along with it.

A few minor gripes (legitimate or otherwise), a few more people jumping in with other minor gripes (same options), and one nutball who blows some small thing out of proportion at the right time with the right sort of inflammatory language, and BLAM!

Virtual riot.

Chicago Bulls fans tipping over cars and burning down businesses because their team... won?

No sense to it. But it happens.

Online, that's not as big a deal most of the time. But, unlike the sports riots, it doesn't stop there. A few of the morons who get invested in this nonsense keep going. Some of them year after year, doing any and every thing they can to punish "those evil Nazi bastiches." And they really don't care if they're screwing up innocent people in the process. THEY HAVE TO BE RIGHT, DAMMIT!

Sometimes they even screw themselves up. Sanity is a fragile thing for some folks. Life is tough, and the wrong trigger at the wrong time can give them access to a tempting road of rationale they can't resist. It can seem like their way out of responsibility for the things that are wrong in their lives.

Understand: The person making the initial argument may not be the kind to ever fall into that trap. They may be completely immune to its lure. They still set it for others, who may be susceptible to it. And those people will run in where angels know better than to tread.

Each psycho generated by that kind of discussion wastes time for the mods and the members, potentially for years. Ask any of the long-term members about Julian Bates or Mahesh Khemlani or Joe Kumar or Ng Chi-Chiu or any of the other psychotic freaks who've haunted the place over time.

Not to mention the problem of debating with every person who's got some tiny (or not-so-tiny) argument about moderation policy. If we had to, as one person suggested to me today, "prove ourselves" every time we made a judgement call, we wouldn't have time to do the things the role requires. Those of you who've been around a while know what would happen then. The creeps would win.

Endit.

Anything and everything you ever valued in this forum would be gone. Just that fast, and just that certainly. Fortunately, 99+% of you are sane and sensible, and look out for the group. Much less, and nothing could keep the system going.

There are a couple of dozen moderators of specific sections, and maybe 8 people with forum-wide moderator access. There are tens of thousands of you. Do the math.

Here's how it works: If you're complaining about a moderator's actions under an anonymous account, you go away. If you're not willing to associate yourself with the username, you have no rights even to a reputation. It is not possible to slander a fictional creature.

You're new and bitching because a post was deleted? Too bad. Learn. There's no damage to you in that, as we all have them removed from time to time (including me), for reasons that might not have anything to do with what we said. Even being banned for some time doesn't mean anything about you as a person. (I've had more than one member ask to be banned, to keep them from spending too much time here that they couldn't afford.)

Grow up. Get the hell over it.

We don't like banning people. That's not the purpose of an open discussion forum. And we sure don't nuke people just for disagreeing with us. Hell, if you knew how much and how often some of us disagree with each other you'd wonder why we hadn't collectively banned ourselves!

None of us have rights here, aside from the guy who owns the place. We each have some set of privileges, which are pretty clearly defined. Even the mods are subject to censure, as several of us can attest from personal experience.

Don't tell us about "free speech" or your First Amendment rights, as that just proves that you haven't a damned clue about what personal freedom, self-responsibility, or the US Constitution are all about. (The Constitution is a local ordinance that doesn't apply to most of our members, by the way.)

Don't try to argue what's "fair" until you have some clue about all the factors, and are grown up enough to know that life isn't fair. It has hard edges and sharp corners, and sometimes the lights go out when you're not ready. That doesn't mean that someone is out to get you. Sometimes it just means the lights went out. Storms happen.

Bark your shins, but don't bark at the mods. They're not required to accept abuse just because they're easy targets.

When people get into the "mob mode," and start to lose their good sense, they put themselves into a nasty position. They can't ever get back in and establish a reputation under their real names if we can identify them. That creates even greater pressure, because they know they did it to themselves. That's the point at which they really understand what they threw away. And they blame someone else for it...

The nasty meanies who were bad to them for being jerks to other members.

Do you think we feel sorry for them? Hell no. We literally don't have the time. There's always some new jerk ready to waste it for us, trying to prove he can outwit the system and become the new "big dog" (or snake) on the block.

You didn't get a warning, a justification, an explanation or a note of apology? That's why. It's because we're human, we have limited time and businesses of our own to run, and you should have made the effort to know better.

Threaten us and get belligerent with us? You're gone. We know where discussing anything with you leads. To you becoming another of the flaming freaks and psycho stalkers that make a vindictive hobby out of wasting our time. You're a slug, and you deserve nothing but salt and fire.

You are not an exception. You are not different from the rest. You're the same person we've dealt with hundreds of times over the years. You just don't know it yet.

We're here for the benefit of the overwhelming majority of the people to whom this message doesn't apply. The folks who know how to behave like civilized adults, not immature and entitled children. Like brats who need to be spanked.

You want to demand an explanation? Screw you. We don't owe you a damned thing. It's the legitimate members who make this place valuable. Not you. You're a parasite.

Crowds are kept from becoming mobs by two simple things: The good will of sensible people and the fear of consequences on the part of the insensate. We have way more of the former than the latter, but I can add to the consequences. From now on, anyone who starts any thread I see asking why their posts were deleted or arguing with any other moderator will get a minimum of one month's unsolicited vacation time from this forum.

Don't do it twice.

Anonymous accounts that do this, regardless of age, will simply go away. I don't care if you have 1,000 posts. No name, no manners, no rights.

Generic guru bashing? Same thing. Plain and simple. "Buh-bye." If you can't put your name behind an insult, you have no damned business issuing it. Even to classes of people with no names mentioned.

Arbitrary? Maybe, but over 95% of the people who are members here never, ever have to deal with a moderator in an official capacity. Of the ones who do, most come to us asking for help with something. Only a tiny fraction need to be told personally what not to do.

We'd rather spend our time helping the ones who ask then arguing with the one who don't make the effort to understand the basic concepts of an online community, be they mean-spirited or plain old uninformed.

Don't like it? Go to one of the whiner forums and tell them how evil we are. We won't bother you while you do that. Just stay the hell out of our way.


Paul
#argue #moderator
  • Profile picture of the author kiopa
    Banned
    Ok, fair enough. Can I ask a simple favor from you though?

    Where's the list of posting rules for this forum? I've been breaking them for a while obviously, but that's because I don't even know what they are. Can't find them.

    For example, many forums have no problem with "see sig" responses, as long as its relevant to the subject / question. This forum does have a problem with that. I didn't know that until last night, and from now on, will never do that.

    However, and maybe I'm blind, but I can't find a list of forum posting rules anywhere. Can find answers on how to become a war room member, how to post a WSO, about sigs & blogs, but nothing about posting. Got a list of rules?

    You can't really give someone heck for not following the rules, when you don't even tell them what the rules are.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382719].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Where's the list of posting rules for this forum?
      What? You want a list of literal terms you can argue? Not happening, sir and/or ma'am.

      Spend time. Observe. Learn. Discuss, rather than promote before you know how and when. Invest in the group and you'll find out how to collect our interest.

      This is a discussion forum. Outside the paid advertising sections, you should limit yourself to that. If you wouldn't do it in a face-toface conversation with your peers in real life, don't do it here.

      Not hard, but not instant. That's why so many people have trouble with it.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382735].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author kiopa
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        What? You want a list of literal terms you can argue? Not happening, sir and/or ma'am.
        Are you serious? That's your response? Ok, so moderators are allowed to make up rules on a whim, as they see fit then? Alright, at least I know then.

        Really, that's ridiculous. It's like having a law enforcement agency patrolling the streets, with no laws to follow. Or maybe they have laws, but they're just not going to tell anybody what they are.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382756].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
          Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

          Are you serious? That's your response? Ok, so moderators are allowed to make up rules on a whim, as they see fit then? Alright, at least I know then.

          Really, that's ridiculous. It's like having a law enforcement agency patrolling the streets, with no laws to follow. Or maybe they have laws, but they're just not going to tell anybody what they are.
          Hmmm No.

          Mods can't simply create a list of 2 billion (and counting!!!) items YOU can or not discuss.

          As for the rest of us, we sort of know what is appropriate to do here: we just do what we would do IF we were invited to someone's else house for a weekend.

          See? That's easy.
          Signature
          People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382778].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

          Are you serious? That's your response? Ok, so moderators are allowed to make up rules on a whim, as they see fit then? Alright, at least I know then.

          Really, that's ridiculous. It's like having a law enforcement agency patrolling the streets, with no laws to follow. Or maybe they have laws, but they're just not going to tell anybody what they are.
          I know I'm going to regret this but let me try to explain to you why, outside
          of the few rules that are posted, it's futile to have any more.

          Let's take something as simple as this unwritten rule.

          Do Not Insult Other Members.

          What's an insult?

          Is it calling them names?

          Is it telling them that their business model stinks?

          Is it saying anything to them that they don't personally like?

          Where do we draw the line?

          And yes, it IS an unwritten rule. I was banned for insulting other members.
          I felt what I said, given the circumstance, was justified and I was ready
          and willing to take my punishment.

          But to put down in detail every little thing that constitutes an insult is
          impossible. And then, once you try to do that, you get people arguing that
          what they said wasn't an insult and try to poke exception holes in the
          rules.

          When that happens, it just creates more problem because now, people
          are arguing that the rules still aren't specific enough. And then all the
          forum lawyers come out.

          It's a war you can't win.

          That is why, outside of the few hard and fast rules posted...

          No affiliate links in sigs
          No calling out people by name who may have wronged you

          You won't get what you're looking for.

          You can understand that and deal with it or you can go to some other
          forum that is more lax OR has the rules YOU want.

          Simple?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382785].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author kiopa2
            Banned
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382906].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
              Originally Posted by kiopa2 View Post

              How would you like it if for example, the police pulled you over one day, and:

              Police: You broke XXX law.

              You: What??? That's not even a law!

              Police: Ohhh, it is a law. We just didn't put it on the books. Here's your $300 ticket though.

              You: What?!? I'm not paying that. It's not even a law!

              Police: Oh, you're going to argue with me? Ok, here's a new ticket for $600 then.
              I wouldn't put it THAT way. Instead think about this as a weekend over someone's house.

              There are no rules in a billboard.

              Yet, you need to know HOW to behave.
              Signature
              People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382912].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
              Originally Posted by kiopa2 View Post

              I don't agree at all. Right now, I'm being punished because I broke rules I didn't even know existed. Actually, that's wrong. I'm being punished because I stroke Paul's ego the wrong way, and obviously it's easier pushing the "ban" button, then it is to address a valid concern. Really, look at the two posts I made in this thread. How does that possibly constitute a ban?

              How would you like it if for example, the police pulled you over one day, and:

              Police: You broke XXX law.

              You: What??? That's not even a law!

              Police: Ohhh, it is a law. We just didn't put it on the books. Here's your $300 ticket though.

              You: What?!? I'm not paying that. It's not even a law!

              Police: Oh, you're going to argue with me? Ok, here's a new ticket for $600 then.

              Same ****. Been banned for a week for absolutely no reason. And more than likely, after Paul reads this post, I'll be banned for 3 months, if not permanently. Up to him...
              With all due respect, you appear to be engaging in the very behaviour that Paul has taken the time and trouble to outline as being unacceptable.

              Will
              Signature
              Whether you are a Reader, an Author or a Website Owner, we have something for you!

              Books that Inspire
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382917].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
              I guess a permanent Ban, come on this post was purely trying to be confrontational. Here is a question if /When you are banned will any of us WF members be negatively effected , No. I can tell you that you will be by not having access.


              Originally Posted by kiopa2 View Post

              I don't agree at all. Right now, I'm being punished because I broke rules I didn't even know existed. Actually, that's wrong. I'm being punished because I stroke Paul's ego the wrong way, and obviously it's easier pushing the "ban" button, then it is to address a valid concern. Really, look at the two posts I made in this thread. How does that possibly constitute a ban?

              How would you like it if for example, the police pulled you over one day, and:

              Police: You broke XXX law.

              You: What??? That's not even a law!

              Police: Ohhh, it is a law. We just didn't put it on the books. Here's your $300 ticket though.

              You: What?!? I'm not paying that. It's not even a law!

              Police: Oh, you're going to argue with me? Ok, here's a new ticket for $600 then.

              Same ****. Been banned for a week for absolutely no reason. And more than likely, after Paul reads this post, I'll be banned for 3 months, if not permanently. Up to him...
              Signature

              Help me give my children a better future gofund.me/xge53k8

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382920].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

          A Or maybe they have laws, but they're just not going to tell anybody what they are.
          Now that's an interesting sentence.

          So you're complaining that people have to spend time on the forum, observing how it works and trying to post without breaking undisclosed rules.

          Terrible system!

          That means they'll have to use their brains and common sense. Not to mention having to be polite and respectful to others.

          *******************

          Regarding Moderators not giving warnings before zapping stuff. Well, do you know, I did get a warning once.

          The Mod in question told me my post could be damaging and, as he considered me "one of the good guys who had probably not thought through the repercussions of what I'd said" would I mind deleting it?

          (The other 273 posts that I had deleted just disappeared without a word ).

          So there you go - another terrible system. People who put a lot of effort into the community sometimes get a bit of leeway.

          BTW, most of my posts were probably deleted because I was too sarcastic.


          Martin
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383503].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post


            BTW, most of my posts were probably deleted because I was too sarcastic.


            Martin
            [/LEFT]
            [/CENTER]
            Martin Luxton... sarcasm?..... Never!
            Signature

            Bare Murkage.........

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383507].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
              What's wrong with sarcasm? It's one of the best forms of comic relief.

              -Dani
              Signature
              Easily Recruit JV Partners & Affiliates
              with lifetime commissions
              Lead Money Locker
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383526].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
      Paul, I sense someone (thing) got under your skin. Maybe I'm wrong, the text thing is often hard to understand. Or maybe it's how I'm feeling today. I just sense a lot more 'passion' underlying it than I normally get from your postings.

      If that's the case, then damn, I wish I could write that eloquently when I am mad at someone/thing.

      I admit I don't 'get' a lot of the folks I've come across online. Admittedly I don't know s**t, but where I come from folks tend to be relatively normal and so when you find out what some folks will do online it's a real eye opener. And it hurts to think that's the kind of world we live in. And it hurts to think you're so dumb you can be fooled by these people. And it hurts to think these same people started out as cute little babies and you have no idea who/what/how they ever ended up being nutcases.

      Anyway, totally off topic so I apologise.

      Kiopa

      Signature
      San

      The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
      Pay me to play. :) Order a Custom Cover today.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382764].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author GrantFreeman
      Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

      Where's the list of posting rules for this forum? I've been breaking them for a while obviously, but that's because I don't even know what they are. Can't find them....
      ..You can't really give someone heck for not following the rules, when you don't even tell them what the rules are.
      Of course you can't.

      Often times in order to find something one must look for it first. Doing this might save you loads of embarrasement later.

      Grant
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384143].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    I don't even know how to respond to this.

    Wow...I'd give my best mule to be able to write like that.

    For the record, I'm one of the lucky ones. At one time, I was one of those
    nut jobs who insisted that he was right and the world was out to get him.

    Thanks to Paul and a few others, when I now have an opinion about
    something, I sit down and think to myself, "Is it possible that maybe there is
    another point of view?"

    I think I second guess myself more now than at any previous time in my
    life. And I look at that as a good thing. It makes me think about decisions
    more. It keeps me from maybe making some very bad mistakes.

    My business is better because of it. My health is better because of it. My
    whole outlook on life is better because of it.

    The problem with forums is that people have a tendency to say things
    here that they'd never say to your face...unless they're truly psychotic.

    It's easy to hide behind a firewall and an anonymous screen name and
    spit venom at people who could probably flatten you in 2 seconds if they
    met you in a bar.

    What's hard is being able to type in these few words.

    "I'm Sorry...I was wrong."

    It would sure make this place a lot less volatile if we could.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382730].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      I don't even know how to respond to this.

      For the record, I'm one of the lucky ones. At one time, I was one of those
      nut jobs who insisted that he was right and the world was out to get him.
      Well you see the problem with that is that even if you are the only one who believes you are right, you still may be right, just because everyone thinks someone is wrong, it doesn't mean they are. I for one wouldn't just back down on my opinion just because a member or moderator thought I was wrong.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382741].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by fryerben View Post

        Well you see the problem with that is that even if you are the only one who believes you are right, you still may be right, just because everyone thinks someone is wrong, it doesn't mean they are. I for one wouldn't just back down on my opinion just because a member or moderator thought I was wrong.
        Well the problem with that is that if the mod thinks you are wrong as it relates to the good of the forum, you're wrong no matter what and that's as it should be.

        If you're right in an argument with a mod or with anyone else, it makes little difference. There are going to be conspiracy theories and others who are so invested in their opinions that no amount of logic will sway them ... ever, so it's pointless to keep arguing the point. It just brings in the rest of the crazies who love to rant about even the most mundane topics.

        The best route to go in an argument is to state your opinion, right or wrong and back it up with your logic and move on. If you're proven wrong, admit it. You'll be a better person for it. If you're right but can't persuade others to your view, let it go.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382775].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post


          Well the problem with that is that if the mod thinks you are wrong as it relates to the good of the forum, you're wrong no matter what and that's as it should be.
          Well actually you have stumbled across a real problem there, just because a mod or whoever may think I am wrong, regardless of what it relates to, anyone is still entitled to their opinion and just because someone who holds higher authority says they are wrong, it does not mean that they are.

          Ever heard of Voltaire? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? This advocation of free speech is what your, and most Western democratic countries are built around and I personally believe that is more of what this forum needs instead of immediate threats of banning individuals.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382787].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
            Originally Posted by fryerben View Post

            Well actually you have stumbled across a real problem there, just because a mod or whoever may think I am wrong, regardless of what it relates to, anyone is still entitled to their opinion and just because someone who holds higher authority says they are wrong, it does not mean that they are.

            Ever heard of Voltaire? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? I think that is more of what this forum needs instead of immediate threats of banning individuals.
            Did you really read the OP?

            :rolleyes:
            Signature
            People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382803].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by fryerben View Post

            Well actually you have stumbled across a real problem there, just because a mod or whoever may think I am wrong, regardless of what it relates to, anyone is still entitled to their opinion and just because someone who holds higher authority says they are wrong, it does not mean that they are.

            Ever heard of Voltaire? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? This advocation of free speech is what your, and most Western democratic countries are built around and I personally believe that is more of what this forum needs instead of immediate threats of banning individuals.
            I think you're missing the entire point of the OP. You cannot argue with a mod about forum postings/rules, etc. Do it and you won't be around long and that will be your loss.

            You can, however argue with a mod about a topic that is being discussed. Ask Paul how many of the long timers have disagreed with him and told him so, including me, and lived to post another day. You do not get banned for having differing opinions in topics and legitimately debating your point.

            You will get banned or your threads deleted for posting anything that mods think are not for the good of the whole. Don't like it? You don't have to like it, but you should probably reread the OP and see if anyone really gives a damn if you like it.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382825].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by fryerben View Post

        Well you see the problem with that is that even if you are the only one who believes you are right, you still may be right, just because everyone thinks someone is wrong, it doesn't mean they are. I for one wouldn't just back down on my opinion just because a member or moderator thought I was wrong.
        If you're confident enough w/ your own opinion, then you should be able to back out of an argument w/ it still intact. No sense in trying to constantly convince someone that can't be convinced. I know it can be hard. But I've learned to treat this forum like my wife. Sometimes you just have to say "Yes dear you're right", while in your head you're thinking "bitch don't know what she's talking about". Keep the peace. It's better for a marriage - it's better for the forum.

        -ps- don't tell my wife I said that.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383525].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      Thanks to Paul and a few others, when I now have an opinion about something, I sit down and think to myself, "Is it possible that maybe there is another point of view?"
      I have a much easier solution. I just post my opinion. All the other points of view show up in a matter of minutes, and I can just read them.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383879].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Yeah, that damn Paul bans everyone who doesn't agree with him and dares post opinions on some subjects contrary to his...

        ....****, nevermind - I'm still here...guess that doesn't hold water

        The truth of the matter is, the moderator staff here is "good" - Sure, every once in a while a mod will do some personal things that aren't warranted, but as a whole, they do a good job.

        I've personally been involved in my fair share of heated debates etc here where I've kind of gone against the grain...and to date, I've never had as much as a temp ban...good deal
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383911].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I have a much easier solution. I just post my opinion. All the other points of view show up in a matter of minutes, and I can just read them.
        That works if you have a thick skin and can handle the heat.

        In my case, I've gotten soft in my old age.

        I prefer a life of quiet nowadays.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383915].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          That works if you have a thick skin and can handle the heat.
          If you want to grow a thick skin, moderate a scifi forum. By way of comparison, a political forum is a cakewalk.
          Signature

          Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

          Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383958].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

            If you want to grow a thick skin, moderate a scifi forum. By way of comparison, a political forum is a cakewalk.
            Isn't that slightly easier to do for you, Dan? You know, being one second into the future, and all.



            ~M~
            Signature

            "Ich bin en fuego!"
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383967].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      I don't even know how to respond to this.

      Wow...I'd give my best mule to be able to write like that.

      For the record, I'm one of the lucky ones. At one time, I was one of those
      nut jobs who insisted that he was right and the world was out to get him.

      Thanks to Paul and a few others, when I now have an opinion about
      something, I sit down and think to myself, "Is it possible that maybe there is
      another point of view?"

      I think I second guess myself more now than at any previous time in my
      life. And I look at that as a good thing. It makes me think about decisions
      more. It keeps me from maybe making some very bad mistakes.

      My business is better because of it. My health is better because of it. My
      whole outlook on life is better because of it.

      The problem with forums is that people have a tendency to say things
      here that they'd never say to your face...unless they're truly psychotic.

      It's easy to hide behind a firewall and an anonymous screen name and
      spit venom at people who could probably flatten you in 2 seconds if they
      met you in a bar.

      What's hard is being able to type in these few words.

      "I'm Sorry...I was wrong."

      It would sure make this place a lot less volatile if we could.
      Huh? I thought you were always right Steven! Don't let them tell you otherwise!
      Signature
      All The Hottest eBooks, Graphics, Software, Videos, Audios, SEO Reports & Articles You Want with PLR ~ New Products Added Daily in Super Hot Niches! ~ Sign Up to PLR Assassin Today
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384314].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Has that now changed?

      Is it better to be wrong?
      What has changed is my attitude towards things.

      For starters, nothing, and I do mean NOTHING is so important, at least as
      far as forum participation goes, that it means you have to dig your heels in
      and act like a spoiled child. If you have an opinion about something, express
      it. Nobody will kill you for it. They may not agree with it. If they don't, and
      you still feel you're right, you can do one of four things.

      1. Dig your heels in, act like child and end up getting into a nasty fight.

      2. Believe you're right, express a valid reasoning for feeling that way and
      then leave it at that.

      3. Believe you're right, decide it's not worth qualifying any further, and
      just drop it.

      4. Maybe take another look at your opinion and see where it might be
      possible that there is another viewpoint just as valid and then, either
      change your mind about the thing OR, if you still feel the same way, at
      least you've looked at it objectively.

      I will now do 2, 3 or 4 depending on what it is.

      But the days of number 1 are over.

      It's just not worth it, at least not to me.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384393].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      [QUOTE=Steven Wagenheim;2382730]
      Wow...I'd give my best mule to be able to write like that.
      QUOTE]

      No doubt. I would give my best chickens! My wife doesn't know this but I traded her father 300 chickens for her hand in marriage... I would have given him 400... shhhh."
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386529].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    So it was you who deleted my thread! I demand vengeance :p

    Respectfully
    Chris
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382733].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Ya got no argument from me ....
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382734].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steven,
    Wow...I'd give my best mule to be able to write like that.
    You already can, and better. Just know what you want to say, who you want to say it to, and get yourself out of the way.
    The problem with forums is that people have a tendency to say things here that they'd never say to your face...unless they're truly psychotic.
    Yep. We in the trade have a term for that. "Monitor muscles."


    Paul
    Signature
    .
    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382747].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Paul, you know the vast majority of us DO appreciate ALL the moderation efforts.

    Kudos to ALL the Mods.
    Signature
    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382755].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Nick Lotter
      For what it's worth, I have been a member of quite a lot of forums on the web, and Warrior Forum is by far the best moderated forum on the internet, in my honest opinion.

      By a LOOOOOONG shot.

      So I have to second Fernando in saluting the mods for the work they do.

      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      Paul, you know the vast majority of us DO appreciate ALL the moderation efforts.

      Kudos to ALL the Mods.
      Signature
      "Do not wait to strike until the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."
      William Butler Yeats
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382901].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
    Paul,
    I've seen exactly what you are talking about. Antagonism and petulance serve no one. It is not only self destructive to the leaders of the 'riot', it is disruptive, and therefore destructive to, the others who get caught up in the frenzy and lose sight of their own best interests for the sake of 'taking sides' or justifying their own positions which they have harbored and now feel they have back up for.

    You are absolutely on target about the Constitution. Not all locales are governed by it, and even the USA, is still mistaken for a democracy. Forums, even our own, are communal in nature, but that does not a democracy make. Human beings, most of them anyway, are incapable of governing themselves as a collective whole, hence leaders are sought to make decisions that are in the best interest of the whole.

    Leaders must make decisions that affect the masses they lead. The need to make those decisions, always under a microscope, and often called into justification, is one that no one should envy nor judge. Especially without the experience of 'a mile in the shoes.'


    -Dani
    Signature
    Easily Recruit JV Partners & Affiliates
    with lifetime commissions
    Lead Money Locker
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382769].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
      Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post


      You are absolutely on target about the Constitution. Not all locales are governed by it, and even the USA, is still mistaken for a democracy. Forums, even our own, are communal in nature, but that does not a democracy make. Human beings, most of them anyway, are incapable of governing themselves as a collective whole, hence leaders are sought to make decisions that are in the best interest of the whole.


      -Dani
      You must be having a laugh? Do you know what a democracy is? It is absolutely absurd to suggest the USA is not a democracy, you need leaders in a democracy, they are not self-appointed, but appointed by the people and for the people, this is what the whole idea of democracy revolves around. You cannot have democracy functioning it its purest form in this day and age as happened in the times of Ancient Greece, try getting the whole of the USA to sit in a theater and discuss issues.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382780].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Ben,
        You must be having a laugh? Do you know what a democracy is?
        Her point wasn't political. Yours verges on it. Please do not go there, anyone. This is not the place for poilitical discussions. The folks who hang out in offtopic can tell you how little tolerance I have for that in this forum.


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382804].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Ben,
          Well actually you have stumbled across a real problem there, just because a mod or whoever may think I am wrong, regardless of what it relates to, anyone is still entitled to their opinion and just because someone who holds higher authority says they are wrong, it does not mean that they are.
          I wondered how long it would take for someone to trot out this silly old chestnut.

          You are absolutely entitled to any opinion you like. No-one is required to pay to promote it for you. And if Allen says he doesn't want it here, you don't have any right to say it here. The mods are trusted to do their best to ensure that Allen isn't paying to promote or support things he's said he doesn't care to promote or support.

          Abbreviated version: You can believe and say anything you want. We're not stopping you. We're telling you what Allen doesn't want said in his house.

          Say it somewhere else.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382819].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
        Originally Posted by fryerben View Post

        You must be having a laugh? Do you know what a democracy is? It is absolutely absurd to suggest the USA is not a democracy, you need leaders in a democracy, they are not self-appointed, but appointed by the people and for the people, this is what the whole idea of democracy revolves around. You cannot have democracy functioning it its purest form in this day and age as happened in the times of Ancient Greece, try getting the whole of the USA to sit in a theater and discuss issues.
        The USA is NOT a democracy. We are a Republic. In a Democracy, the people vote on issues, in a Republic,the people elect people to vote on issues for them.

        I will refrain from commenting on your reference to the self-appointed, vs. elected/appointed by the people as this is not a political forum nor thread, but to keep in line with Paul's post, I will say that mods are not self-appointed. They are asked, and from what I have seen of the mods here, the request is based on those with level heads and a sense of integrity. Which is a Hell of a lot more than anyone gets from any politician.

        -Dani

        [Edit: Sorry Paul, I only saw your last post after I posted mine.]
        Signature
        Easily Recruit JV Partners & Affiliates
        with lifetime commissions
        Lead Money Locker
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382815].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
          Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

          The USA is NOT a democracy. We are a Republic. In a Democracy, the people vote on issues, in a Republic,the people elect people to vote on issues for them.

          I will refrain from commenting on your reference to the self-appointed, vs. elected/appointed by the people as this is not a political forum nor thread, but to keep in line with Paul's post, I will say that mods are not self-appointed. They are asked, and from what I have seen of the mods here, the request is based on those with level heads and a sense of integrity. Which is a Hell of a lot more than anyone gets from any politician.

          -Dani
          I understand Paul,

          Please just let me add my concluding remarks to this ignorant comment. You are a democracy let me assure you, not only did I study the subject at university level, I also have a PHD in it.

          There are vary forms of democracy which have evolved over time, the whole point of our modern form of democracy is to have democratically elected leaders to make decisions for you due to the size of our populations etc. A republic IS a form of democracy as you evidently did not know.

          That is all I shall add to this.

          Ben.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382828].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
            Originally Posted by fryerben View Post

            I understand Paul,

            Please just let me add my concluding remarks to this ignorant comment. You are a democracy let me assure you, not only did I study the subject at university level, I also have a PHD in it.

            There are vary forms of democracy which have evolved over time, the whole point of our modern form of democracy is to have democratically elected leaders to make decisions for you due to the size of our populations etc. A republic IS a form of democracy as you evidently did not know.

            That is all I shall add to this.

            Ben.
            I will agree to disagree with your opinion, and defend your right to have it and voice it.
            Signature
            Easily Recruit JV Partners & Affiliates
            with lifetime commissions
            Lead Money Locker
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382839].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Ben,

              You're smarter than that. You know better than probably anyone here the difference between a republic and a pure democracy. You also know that neither of those has anything to do with the environment about which the OP was written.

              For any civilization to prosper and endure, it must treat private property, to some extent, as an autocracy. The rules which limit government (the purpose of most constitutions) are meant largely to keep it out of such matters, not to inject it into them.


              Paul
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382868].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      San,
      I sense someone (thing) got under your skin.
      Yeah, but it's got nothing to do with me. Just some folks screwing with some friends of mine who don't deserve it. I try not to ever let that be a profitable experience.

      Kiopa,

      I believe stupidity should be painful. Consider this my contribution to your long-term education.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382796].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Kiopa,

        I believe stupidity should be painful. Consider this my contribution to your long-term education.


        Paul
        Damn, he didn't even last long enough to see my image? That's what I get for trying to be helpful. :p
        Signature
        San

        The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
        Pay me to play. :) Order a Custom Cover today.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382821].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Fernando,
          Did you really read the OP?
          Ben and I have butted heads before on other issues. I'm of the opinion that he's a good guy, with the best of intentions. He gives good advice in areas where he's got experience. This doesn't happen to be one of them, but his thoughts on this are worth considering.

          Sensible and civil disagreement keep us honest, after all.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382837].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    I love how some posts in this thread directly reflect the mentality the OP refers to.

    Folks who drop in on this forum (or any virtual community) need to remember it's not all that different than any offline group or community. You can't just burst into a group and demand that things get done your way. You can't just burst into a group and demand a list of rules. As Paul said, you learn these things over time as you participate in the group.

    That's how it works offline. Why should it be any different online?


    Cheers,
    Becky
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382800].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Karan Goel
    I agree with Mr Paul 11000000%!

    You do a crime once, or twice, you are bound to be
    punished.

    Karan


    PS: For heaven's sake, keep this thread "fight-free"!
    Signature
    Penalty Safe, Long Term, 100% Whitehat Backlinks
    Love your site? Then check out SafeSpokes!
    ~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_~_
    karan996@irchiver.com karan997@irchiver.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382809].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
      The one big takeaway a WF member or guest can glean from Paul's missive is this: Get to know the WF community before posting a new thread and before posting comments on an existing thread. That's not a rule but - it will help you immensely.

      "Certain people" become WF members and you can tell by their actions that they didn't take a split second to read any of the forum rules or stickys.

      Nor did they take any time whatsoever to get to know the ebb and flow and nuances of how things work.

      Had they did those things; they wouldn't be having the issues that are having.

      Another important takeaway you should grasp immediately...

      Being a WF Member is a privilege; not your Constitutional right

      Giles, the Crew Chief
      Signature
      Tools, Strategies and Tactics Used By Savvy Internet Marketers and SEO Pros:

      SEO G.O.L.D. = Genuine Overall Link Diversity
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382919].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post

        The one big takeaway a WF member or guest can glean from Paul’s missive is this: Get to know the WF community before posting a new thread and before posting comments on an existing thread. That's not a rule but - it will help you immensely.
        Good advice.

        Some time back I pulled together a list of useful threads (many of them written by Paul) that would likely help a lot of newcomers understand the ebb and flow of this place a little better. These aren't rules... but they are some darn good guidelines.

        Here's the list of guidelines.

        Cheers,
        Becky
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382954].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    Awesome post! Mods have a tough job keeping this environment positive and productive. If they didn't exist, chaos would quickly ensue. Law and order are required in humanity. That is just the plain truth of it.
    Signature
    Do Your Copywriting Skills Suck?

    Let Us Help You Develop Your Writing Skills!

    Submit Guest Posts With [ TheBitBot.Com ]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382820].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Kennedy
    Wow, seems like my "pathetic" comment really got to you. No hard feelings mate.

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Generic guru bashing? Same thing. Plain and simple. "Buh-bye." If you can't put your name behind an insult, you have no damned business issuing it. Even to classes of people with no names mentioned.
    Isn't that going to take quite a lot of time to enforce since a lot of people say in their posts "Gurus did this wah wah wah" etc?

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382847].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Scott,
      Wow, seems like my "pathetic" comment really got to you. No hard feelings mate.
      None at all. If it doesn't happen again, it never happened. That wasn't the first time that word has been applied to a mod's decisions, and it was an example many people will have seen. Notice that you still haven't been punished for it.
      Isn't that going to take quite a lot of time to enforce since a lot of people say in their posts "Gurus did this wah wah wah" etc?
      Nope. It only takes one click to make the post go away. Two clicks for the poster. Not much time at all.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382875].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Scott Kennedy View Post

      Isn't that going to take quite a lot of time to enforce since a lot of people say in their posts "Gurus did this wah wah wah" etc?
      We members can make the mod's job easier by doing our job:

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...moderator.html



      Cheers,
      Becky
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382924].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    As someone who was Banned Twice for things I never knew were wrong at the time I felt very hard done by I can attest that at times for someone new it would be easier If there was a warning etc... But I now realize why that is not possible to go and just give warnings and explain every little mistake to every member ... Those banning are warnings and being away from the forum does give one a completely new perspective .... This forum has done such a great Job of creating a community some people wrongly get that sense of belonging confused with ownership and Rights .... I have learned the difference between privileges and rights. Often if dealt with properly one is offered more help and protection by privileges than rights especially here in this forum....Thank you guys Paul great thread Now to learn more about great writing by Reading it again
    Signature

    Help me give my children a better future gofund.me/xge53k8

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382881].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      some people wrongly get that sense of belonging confused with ownership and Rights
      Brilliant. Thank you. That is so perfectly stated, I'm going to steal it.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382892].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        nashelver,
        some people wrongly get that sense of belonging confused with ownership and Rights
        The more I think about this, the more brilliant an observation I think it is.

        I've tried occasionally in the past to identify, in ways I could communicate to others, the reason I'll let some people get away with stuff when they're new that others wouldn't be allowed. This nails it. Some folks act as though they're already so entrenched in the group that they make this mistake, while others give the appearance of just trying to take advantage.

        I knew it intuitively, but I never found the right words to express it to anyone else. This is what I was looking for.

        Thank you.


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382923].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Kiopa,

          An email has been sent to your ISP. If that doesn't work, I'm cool with banning their whole service and letting people know who to thank for it. (BTW, Thomas, if you're reading this, a block on 117.47.128.155 would be helpful.)

          Analogies to law enforcement personnel are stupid. They just show how little you understand the difference between criminal law and civil behavior. Where I attended school, we were required to know this stuff by the 4th grade.

          Plainly put: Cops and courts can hurt you, or take away your freedom, sometimes for years or forever. The consequences of mistakes are so serious that there are all sorts of rules for enforcement oversight.

          The right of a person to say, "You'll behave civilly on my property or leave" is a very different thing. If you came into my house demanding a written definition of my meaning for "civil," I'd show you the door. Immediately. Assuming one of my friends wasn't there to defenestrate you first.

          You are, by the way, making my point for me perfectly. You have zero respect for the rights of others, and are so determined to look right that you're deliberately violating the rights of the owner of this forum to prove your view.

          You're on your way to becoming an obsessive psychopath. Well done!

          Simon
          Wow. You've been moderating forums for 23 years? That's a long time in internet years.
          I was moderating BBSs and a Fidonet echo long before I ever got onto the Internet (1995). I've also run and/or moderated email discussion lists, web-forums, a Usenet newsgroup, and numerous live panels and discussions.

          The Warrior Forum ain't my first rodeo.

          Steven,

          I have never done Jell-o shots. Ever. Not even with old Meth-head.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383007].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          nashelver,The more I think about this, the more brilliant an observation I think it is.

          I've tried occasionally in the past to identify, in ways I could communicate to others, the reason I'll let some people get away with stuff when they're new that others wouldn't be allowed. This nails it. Some folks act as though they're already so entrenched in the group that they make this mistake, while others give the appearance of just trying to take advantage.

          I knew it intuitively, but I never found the right words to express it to anyone else. This is what I was looking for.

          Thank you.


          Paul
          \


          I love your fascination with words Paul... always anguishing over the most appropriate way to communicate something. It's admirable how you appreciate others.

          I remember you commended me once for quoting Gibran.

          Folks when you get commended by Paul Myers it feel downright special. He's one of those kind of people. You know em.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384835].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver View Post

      As someone who was Banned Twice for things I never knew were wrong at the time I felt very hard done by
      One of my customers observed a few months ago that in the short time he'd known me, I'd spent more than half of it banned from the forum.

      When I went back over it, and thought about it... I spent fully a quarter of my first year here being banned.

      I now hold a little mini-celebration in the OT forum every time I make 500 posts without being banned.

      It's all in your perspective.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384858].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
    Wow. You've been moderating forums for 23 years? That's a long time in internet years.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382896].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Simon Ashari View Post

      Wow. You've been moderating forums for 23 years? That's a long time in internet years.
      Yeah, but when you consider that Paul used to do jello shots with
      Methuselah, it's not really that long.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382905].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    I have a confession ... I have small silly WF goals that are secondary to my main money making Goals but fun to keep track of as I learn on this forum. One of them was get a Thank You from Paul Myers ....Yippee
    Signature

    Help me give my children a better future gofund.me/xge53k8

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382911].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Nick Lotter
      Originally Posted by nashelver View Post

      I have a confession ... I have small silly WF goals that are secondary to my main money making Goals but fun to keep track of as I learn one of them was get a Thank You from Paul Myers ....Yippee
      LOL, nice - congratulations!
      Signature
      "Do not wait to strike until the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."
      William Butler Yeats
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382926].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author larrybrown
      "I have a confession ... I have small silly WF goals that are secondary to my main money making Goals but fun to keep track of as I learn on this forum. One of them was get a Thank You from Paul Myers ....Yippee"

      Cathy, that is so cool! Congratulations. Would love to see your list of accomplishments so far.

      Larry
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384294].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
    Banned
    Fantastic post by Paul. The mods lay down the rules and enforce this forum. Let's not forget these mods are doing a fantastic job and because of guys like Paul this forum has not ended into a "junk" place
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382916].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Clyde
    Guys, pay attention to Paul or any other mods for that matter.

    There used to be a time where I would argue with a mod but guess what, it was nonconstructive and that time arguing could've been used on something that makes me my first million!

    plus, Paul is actually a nice guy if you just be cool.

    p/s: I think it would be awesome if mods get something like a "Moderator" tag under their usernames.. would solve all these problems perhaps?
    Signature

    Generate Unlimited Number of Micro Niche Keywords, Multi-threaded EMD Finder PLUS More!




    50% OFF WSO.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2382927].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Al,
      p/s: I think it would be awesome if mods get something like a "Moderator" tag under their usernames.. would solve all these problems perhaps?
      Nope. Some people want to do the thing and not be hassled by idiots, and there are plenty of them out there. Plus, it's better if people behave because it's the right thing to do, not because "Big Brother" is in the room.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383016].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        I've had a couple of replies deleted over the last couple of days. As far as I remember, that's the first time in a LONG time (if not ever).

        Rather than think "What the heck does that Mod have against me?", I looked at it as "What was wrong with my post, that made the Mod delete it for not being a valuable contribution?".

        In other words, I looked at it as "What was wrong with ME?" rather than "What is wrong with the MODERATOR?"

        After all, Allen trusts these people to do such an important job for a reason.
        Signature
        "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
        ~ Zig Ziglar
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383047].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author imon32red
          Lance I had the same thing happen to me about 6 months ago. All of the sudden a thread that I had started was gone. I couldn't believe it at first, but no matter how hard I looked I couldn't find it. Then I did the same thing that you did. I tried to figure out what I did wrong. Honestly, I still don't know why, and it bothered me a little at the time. But I just figured the conversation was going a direction the mods didn't want it to. Anyways, I didn't bother trying to insult anyone, or find out what happened. It was obvious, something that was in that thread was not wanted here. End of story. Anything that I could of done to try and prove myself would have been a waste of my time, and anyone else's involved.
          Signature
          I'm not selling anything.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383289].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    Paul quick question, still on the topic I think kind off. Is it possible to Change my user name This was my husbands account and because I became a stay at home mom and needed to do the hard online work he made me take it over (Glad he did) as he said that because we use the same internet IP i could not open my own account.

    You said something about Anonymity and that the last thing I want to do is business under the a Anonymous name but I cant find a way to change my user name. If there is I would like to change my User Name to 'Cathy Shelver' my name is it possible.
    Signature

    Help me give my children a better future gofund.me/xge53k8

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383033].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Cathy,

      Done. Should take the same password.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383044].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
      Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver View Post

      If there is I would like to change my User Name to 'Cathy Shelver' my name is it possible.
      Welcome to the club Cathy.

      Signature
      People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383048].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

        I think the moderator makes a great point. Moderators do what they want. What people forget are you can't break any rules, because there are none. You simply stay on here as long as the moderator wants.

        Insecure people, which moderators tend to be, love to mention how they are "for the well-being of the forum and the people on the forum." That is an interesting statement. From what I have seen around the Internet, the majority of Warrior Forum members are banned-warrior forum members. LOL!
        crazy crazy crazy ... It appears that there are many who have no concept of "civil behavior" in a forum and need a list of rules and regulations (not that most of the newbies ever even bother to read the rules that do exist).

        If you participate in this forum for any amount of time, it really isn't rocket science to figure out what goes and what doesn't go here. So, you're right ... if you feel you can't make a contribution without breaking rules, whether written or unwritten perhaps you just aren't "forum material".

        Personally, I enjoy a forum that is well moderated over one where the trolls and spammers run rampant. This forum would have ZERO value for anyone if that were the case.

        Did your Mom and Dad ever teach manners? Just apply them if they did and you won't get into a lot of trouble.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383148].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
          I thought I was seeing things after I read Stede's post, but apparently not...

          Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

          I think the moderator makes a great point. Moderators do what they want. What people forget are you can't break any rules, because there are none. You simply stay on here as long as the moderator wants.

          Insecure people, which moderators tend to be, love to mention how they are "for the well-being of the forum and the people on the forum." That is an interesting statement. From what I have seen around the Internet, the majority of Warrior Forum members are banned-warrior forum members. LOL!
          Is this some type of veil insult directed at the MODS or at the WF?

          Got a chip on your shoulder? :confused:

          It's amazing that you would make such potentially inflammatory statements after reading the OP.

          Amazing...

          Freaking amazing...

          Giles, the Crew Chief
          Signature
          Tools, Strategies and Tactics Used By Savvy Internet Marketers and SEO Pros:

          SEO G.O.L.D. = Genuine Overall Link Diversity
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383191].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Matt,
            I'm not just saying that either because they happen to be a meal ticket for me either. Or wait a second. I guess I am. But my point stands regardless.
            And there's not a damned thing wrong with that. If your customers are happy and making more money because of your participation here, everyone wins. It goes back to one of the original rules I wrote for the place, which most people only saw in part: "Them that gives, gets."

            That's what prompted Teresa to post the first WSO, and why I approved it. It's part of the spirit that WSOs are all about.

            Don't ever apologize for your money if you earn it, sir. Just make sure you earn it.

            Tina,
            I am hoping that you somehow got your words twisted with this sentence? Otherwise, not only is it not true, it's also not the best way to get on the mod's radar.
            "Agreeing with Paul" has never been a rule or condition for posting here. If it were, a lot of our best members would never have made it past their first week.

            We are the Warriors, dammit. Not sheep. Without disagreement and discussion and dispute, we don't learn or grow. It's when we fall into ruts, like choosing one business model or philosophy and sticking to it without looking at ways to build, that we stop in our tracks.

            Ask any hunter what position he wants his prey to be in for the kill shot.

            This isn't about agreement. It's about the rules for discussion, which isn't even useful without some level of disagreement.


            Paul
            Signature
            .
            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383245].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Frank,
              Just for the record (and not to take anything away from the general points you made), I should point out that there are many warriors who don't view their membership solely in terms of their own benefit.
              Here's a question for you, sir: If someone sells a product designed to help others make more money honestly, are they giving or taking? Or both?

              Here's an example. CJ Parker (username: parker) offered a WSO that I bought very recently. It was a short thing, based on something in a book I already owned in paperback. The book cost me around $10. The WSO was $30, and took one idea from that book and showed how to use it for potentially huge profits.

              I missed that in the original reading, and even then it wasn't spelled out the way CJ's was. He took a couple of pages from a 200+ page book, tested the idea, and turned it into something useful and immediately applicable.

              Did he give or take?

              Hint: It was easily the best $30 I've spent on my business so far this year.


              Paul
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383273].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Frank,Here's a question for you, sir: If someone sells a product designed to help others make more money honestly, are they giving or taking? Or both?

                Here's an example. CJ Parker (username: parker) offered a WSO that I bought very recently. It was a short thing, based on something in a book I already owned in paperback. The book cost me around $10. The WSO was $30, and took one idea from that book and showed how to use it for potentially huge profits.

                I missed that in the original reading, and even then it wasn't spelled out the way CJ's was. He took a couple of pages from a 200+ page book, tested the idea, and turned it into something useful and immediately applicable.

                Did he give or take?

                Hint: It was easily the best $30 I've spent on my business so far this year.


                Paul
                very good point, personally I don't mind if someone is on the forum with the sole intention of making money through WSO's as the general likelihood is that they will benefit the members through the knowledge they share, even if it is at a price.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383293].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Frank,Here's a question for you, sir: If someone sells a product designed to help others make more money honestly, are they giving or taking? Or both?

                Here's an example. CJ Parker (username: parker) offered a WSO that I bought very recently. It was a short thing, based on something in a book I already owned in paperback. The book cost me around $10. The WSO was $30, and took one idea from that book and showed how to use it for potentially huge profits.

                I missed that in the original reading, and even then it wasn't spelled out the way CJ's was. He took a couple of pages from a 200+ page book, tested the idea, and turned it into something useful and immediately applicable.

                Did he give or take?

                Hint: It was easily the best $30 I've spent on my business so far this year.


                Paul
                Thanks for addressing that point Paul. I was just about to come back and do so myself. If someone is earning very well on the forum it's because they are taking care of others. Every nickel they bring in is a result of them giving themselves to others. At least that's the way it should be in a perfect world.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383306].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Matt,
                  If someone is earning very well on the forum it's because they are taking care of others. Every nickel they bring in is a result of them giving themselves to others.
                  It should be. That's not always the way things work out, but it's a good thing when it does.

                  People don't seem to "get" the idea that it's okay to sell $2 worth of knowledge for 20 cents a shot 10,000 times. Each buyer gets 10 times what they paid for it, and the seller is in a position to continue to deliver that kind of value again.

                  Dog save me from people who teach me something that can make me money for years, and only ask $30 for it...


                  Paul
                  Signature
                  .
                  Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383331].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
                    Dog save me from people who teach me something that can make me money for years, and only ask $30 for it...
                    LOL. Love it.
                    Signature
                    Easily Recruit JV Partners & Affiliates
                    with lifetime commissions
                    Lead Money Locker
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383368].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      I see Paul abusing his mod powers all the time.

                      He writes way too much text without any pictures. I need pictures.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383392].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        He writes way too much text without any pictures. I need pictures.
                        "Dammit, Jim! I'm a philosopher, not a photographer!"
                        Signature
                        .
                        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383433].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author kevinfar
                      Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

                      LOL. Love it.
                      But it's the harsh reality of people who try to sell online isn't it? There are methods that work however if you've earned 100 billion from them, you won't sell them for $30, so in my opinion there is no point in exaggerating income claims.

                      Ah well, people never learn their lessons about hype.

                      Kevin
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383396].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by kevinfar View Post

                        But it's the harsh reality of people who try to sell online isn't it? There are methods that work however if you've earned 100 billion from them, you won't sell them for $30, so in my opinion there is no point in exaggerating income claims.

                        Ah well, people never learn their lessons about hype.

                        Kevin
                        Yeah, that is why you don't exaggerate earning 100 billion. :rolleyes:

                        This argument is the worst by far. Just because people try to build up reputation, in another market, so they can tap into a different revenue stream, they must be hyping up their products if they sell it for $30.

                        I can see you will go far, young Kevin.

                        btw, thank you for your $27 "The Guide That Will Show You The Way To Riches". I wanted to find riches for less then $30.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383404].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Jay,
                      This is a very important sentence right here...
                      You want the REAL important concept?

                      We teach people who go out and teach their markets. That's the damned multiplier that counts. We show people the examples that they carry out to the rest of the world. Literally.

                      Yes, there are counter-currents. But they'd be there whether we are or not. The things we do in this group affect the whole freaking online world, and some portion of the offline part, if only by cash impact.

                      We can't tell people what to do. Some folks gravitate naturally toward the shady stuff, and others toward the bright. They'll find their way no matter what we do. But most people go with what they learn, and we can affect that. What we do here matters.

                      Every single member here has that kind of power. The question is: What do you want to do with it?


                      Paul
                      Signature
                      .
                      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383413].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                "Agreeing with Paul" has never been a rule or condition for posting here. If it were, a lot of our best members would never have made it past their first week.
                Paul, I've been here too long not to know that disagreement is perfectly acceptable with you and other mods. Like I used to tell my kids, you can disagree with me all you want - as long as you do it respectfully.

                The comment that I referred to was not about disagreement. It was the painting of all moderators as "insecure" and the not-very-well-veiled insult in the rest of the sentence that I quoted.

                Probably not my place to take offense at the comment, since I am not a moderator here. I have moderated at a couple of other forums, though, so I just found it offensive.

                Tina
                Signature
                Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
                Fast & Easy Content Creation
                ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383311].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Paul,

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                If someone sells a product designed to help others make more money honestly, are they giving or taking? Or both?
                That's an easy one. Such a product is clearly of benefit to both parties. I, too, have purchased products that were worth far more to me than their notional cost.

                But that wasn't quite what I meant.

                Matt was apparently making the point that the 'end goal' of WF members (which he subsequently qualified to mean those members who complain about deleted posts) was to 'learn from others and make a killing in the WSO forum'.

                While not necessarily denigrating that goal, I was pointing out that many members (for example, Roger, who you mentioned earlier) contribute generously of their time and expertise without evidently having such ulterior motives.


                Frank
                Signature
                TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383327].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Frank,
                  While not nesessarily denigrating that goal, I was pointing out that many members (for example, Roger, who you mentioned earlier) contribute generously of their time and expertise without evidently having such ulterior motives.
                  A lot of them, certainly. They gain on other levels, as Roger would be the first to tell you. But sometimes it's the idea of the exchange, the sharing of ideas, that's the goal. The continual give and take that's involved in all valuable discussion.

                  The thing with forums is that the exchange is magnified. If you post something useful, it takes X amount of time, but it could be useful to X-hundred people. Of those people. one or two might post something in return that's worth X-hundred to you, and all the exchange took was X-times-2.

                  But how many times was that X-hundred value potentially increased? X-hundred-times-hundreds-times-2.

                  If you post something that can help a person who reads it to make an extra $100 a week, and 100 people who can use it read it, and one person responds with a suggestion that makes the tip worth $200, the total value increase based on that exchange is over $1,000,000 a year.

                  Those kinds of exchanges happen here every single day.

                  Most people have no clue of the potential power of this forum. Or of the damage done by the scumbags who inhabit its darker corners.


                  Paul
                  Signature
                  .
                  Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383358].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Most people have no clue of the potential power of this forum. Or of the damage done by the scumbags who inhabit its darker corners.
                    This is a very important sentence right here...

                    Read it twice, people. Digest this.
                    Signature

                    Bare Murkage.........

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383367].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Stede,
        I think the moderator makes a great point. Moderators do what they want. What people forget are you can't break any rules, because there are none. You simply stay on here as long as the moderator wants.
        You're nuts. Seriously.

        Want proof? Ask Al (unlimitedsubmissions) if I'm that arbitrary. He's in a proper position to explain that what you say is not how it actually works. Or ask any of the many people who were involved in the backlink discussion a week or so ago and disagreed with me vehemently.

        Or Suzanne Bucciarelli, or Roger Davis, or Steven Wagenheim, or Bob Puddy (a former mod here, based on my recommendation), or Les Gibbon (currently a super mod here). I had massive, nasty running gunfights with each of them in the past, and they somehow managed not to push me to that point. They've become some of the most positive members of this group. Not because of me, but because they did exactly what Lance said earlier: They thought about how their actions and comments affected the lives of all the other people who read what they had to say.

        Roger and I battled full-time when he got here. Nasty stuff. I would have to say that he's one of the people here now whose character and opinion I respect the most. He is extremely intelligent, ethically consistent, and more self-aware than most people will ever become.

        There are also people still here now who I've disliked intensely since before I started moderating this place, way back in 98 or so.

        None of us wants to nuke people. We look for reasons not to. Some folks just don't make the balance sensible.

        You've been here for less than 2 months, dude. I've been here for 12 or 13 years. Roughly 70 times as long. It might behoove you to think about what you know before opening your mouth and proving how little that is.


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383172].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

          How am I nuts dude? Everything I said is true and you know it. You have ultimate power (sad to call it that) and you can do what you want.
          You are confusing technical capability with social acceptability.

          If Paul goes around being a jerk, good members will leave. Allen won't like that. And Paul's mod status will go bye-bye. Even if it didn't, those members would go to some other forum, and this one would turn into just another DP.

          Abuse of mod powers kills online communities. It's not that they can't be abused; it's that unless the mods are STUPID, they won't abuse them.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385101].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
        Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

        I think the moderator makes a great point. Moderators do what they want. What people forget are you can't break any rules, because there are none. You simply stay on here as long as the moderator wants.

        Insecure people, which moderators tend to be, love to mention how they are "for the well-being of the forum and the people on the forum." That is an interesting statement. From what I have seen around the Internet, the majority of Warrior Forum members are banned-warrior forum members. LOL!

        My suggestion if you are a warrior forum member and don't like the rules, either quit or don't post. You will still get a lot of benefit from reading the forums and there is a good chance you won't get banned if you don't post.

        If you want uncensored forums, try Usenet (NNTP).

        - Stede
        Did I miss something? Either there are rules, which you don't like, or there aren't any rules in which case you can't not like them.

        And who said the mods get to do what they want? I'm sure none of them particularly want to spend their time picking up the mess left by the spammers and listening to folks droning on an on about how they've been hard done by because their useless/spammy/inflammatory post was deleted.

        Mods get to enforce rules made by Allen. And they do it for free. In return they get to listen to the kids screaming and stomping their feet any time they don't get their own way. Maybe we should call them 'mothers' instead. (ok, maybe that's just my kids :p)
        Signature
        San

        The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
        Pay me to play. :) Order a Custom Cover today.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383260].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          some people wrongly get that sense of belonging confused with ownership and Rights
          Cathy, I agree with this 100%, and with Paul for calling it brilliant.

          At the risk of skirting the political, if only by reference, look at all the pols and officials who might fall under the same canopy. They've been part of the 'inner circle' for years, moved up the ladder, and gained positions of power and influence. And yet one remark that catches someone the wrong way can land them on the curb so hard and fast they bounce - for the greater good of the (group, party, cause...).

          The same thing happens in sports and the media. A long-time, well-respected coach makes an offhand remark that offends a group of supporters in public, and the next thing they know, they're resigning. Not because they suddenly became bad coaches or reporters, or even (in some cases) the facts of their statements are incorrect. But because retaining them has a high potential to cause harm to the school or network.

          It's somewhat the same for forum posting. If a post has the potential to do harm to the community as a whole, for the whole laundry list of reasons Paul outlined in his original post, it needs to go away. The offending poster may indeed be factually correct, but that consideration is subordinate to the continued well-being of the community.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383317].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

        I think the moderator makes a great point. Moderators do what they want. What people forget are you can't break any rules, because there are none. You simply stay on here as long as the moderator wants.

        Insecure people, which moderators tend to be, love to mention how they are "for the well-being of the forum and the people on the forum." That is an interesting statement. From what I have seen around the Internet, the majority of Warrior Forum members are banned-warrior forum members. LOL!

        My suggestion if you are a warrior forum member and don't like the rules, either quit or don't post. You will still get a lot of benefit from reading the forums and there is a good chance you won't get banned if you don't post.

        If you want uncensored forums, try Usenet (NNTP).

        - Stede
        I think you are missing the point here.

        There are rules and then there is "socially acceptable" behavior.

        Rules are clearly mentioned and as soon as you step break 'em, you will have to pay.

        Socially acceptable behavior on the other hand has no fixed terms. It just depends on where you are.

        If you are at my house, I am the one who makes the rules. Don't like 'em??? There's the door.

        And hey, I'm not trying to mock you here or anything and the sentence above isn't targeted at you but it is how the things work in real life.

        And I understand that you know about real life way more than I do. I mean, I'm just 17 and I don't know much about life but this is what my parents taught me as I grew up.
        Signature

        “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385161].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          ArgentStar said:
          Someone pointed me in the direction of this thread today and I was compelled to sign up here and add my kudos. I've been a mod for about 3-4 years now. Nowhere near as long as the OP, but long enough to agree with everything that he's said here.
          I've said right along that these things happen in nearly every forum. This comment makes that point pretty well.

          John,
          I love your fascination with words Paul... always anguishing over the most appropriate way to communicate something.
          The communication is the thing. Being able to say something in a way that lets the person receiving it grasp what you intended to convey.

          Cathy's comment was particularly noticeable to me because of that exact situation having happened not long ago. Two people in the same thread, roughly the same amount of time and posts, and both being nasty toward the same guy. One got banned for a while, but the other didn't.

          The distinction between the two was obvious to me, but I wouldn't have been able to explain it to anyone else. Had anyone asked me about it, that lack might easily have been interpreted as arbitrary behavior. It is, in one way, but it's a pattern that's consistent over time.

          Stede,
          How am I nuts dude? Everything I said is true and you know it. You have ultimate power (sad to call it that) and you can do what you want. You don't HAVE TO give a reason. You don't HAVE TO give 2 or 3 chances. You don't HAVE TO do anything.
          Everyone and everything operates within constraints. Technically, we could do (or not do) everything you described, but that doesn't mean it would be the last act in the chain, or that we could do anything to prevent the ensuing reactions.

          Every action produces some response. In a virtual world, those responses are not always proportional to the initial act. Only a novice or a fool forgets that often. And no-one forgets it for long. The system ensures that.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385401].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Ya know, keeping up with all the creeps, trolls and general troublemakers is a hard job. If only the mods could attract the troublemakers rather than chase 'em. If only there was a way to get them to congregate in one place. If only a moderator would post a thread that would make the trouble makers all come out of the woodwork at once...



    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383104].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      Ya know, keeping up with all the creeps, trolls and general troublemakers is a hard job. If only the mods could attract the troublemakers rather than chase 'em. If only there was a way to get them to congregate in one place. If only a moderator would post a thread that would make the trouble makers all come out of the woodwork at once...

      That is too funny Becky! This thread is like that bug zapper thingy.


      It not only informs those who want to be better Warriors but attracts and zaps those who just don't get it.

      It's really not that hard to figure out once you begin to contribute here. I think most folks have had posts deleted. I have. But as Warriors we learn from it and you move on. You don't throw a hissy-fit.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2439153].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    Paul, Your original post was one of the best I have ever read on this topic. I don't think most of us could ever be moderators for more than 23 days let alone years. At some forums the bickering, nastiness, childishness, personal attacks, etc. etc. are allowed to go on and on and on. Over the years I have quit visiting more than one forum because I just couldn't stand it anymore.

    The argument of free speech always seems to come up to defend saying whatever you want. This is not only an International forum it is a private business. WalMart would not allow someone to walk around inside their store carrying a sign that said "Target is Better". On the street off the private property a person could carry a sign like that (in the U.S. anyway). The owner of a forum has the right to decide what is allowed or not allowed to be posted in his private property. The term "public forum" only means the public is "invited" to join the community not that they can make their own rules or that they become co-owners.

    Like an earlier post said: Thank you and all the other moderators for all you do to make this a better place.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383118].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Having been banned a few years back myself I know it can be frustrating when someone blocks your efforts here on the forum. If you're a lone wolf type A personality type of person that is always used to getting their own way it makes it even worse. I know, trust me. But be that as it may there is a significant financial reward for anyone who wants to take the time to play by the rules here. So if you get an occasional post deleted instead of going after the mods try stepping back and scratching your head and figure out why it was deleted. You'll get far better results if you take that approach. Plus you'll feel a whole lot better as an individual as well. Keep your end goal in mind here (to learn from others and to make a killing in the wso section of the forum) and everything else will work itself out. I for one am eternally grateful for the jobs the mods have done and are doing to keeping this forum active and growing. I'm not just saying that either because they happen to be a meal ticket for me either. Or wait a second. I guess I am. But my point stands regardless.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383135].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Insecure people, which moderators tend to be, love to mention how they are "for the well-being of the forum and the people on the forum."
      Stede, I am hoping that you somehow got your words twisted with this sentence? Otherwise, not only is it not true, it's also not the best way to get on the mod's radar.

      Tina
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383171].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Matt,

      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      Keep your end goal in mind here (to learn from others and to make a killing in the wso section of the forum) and everything else will work itself out.
      (my bold)

      Just for the record (and not to take anything away from the general points you made), I should point out that there are many warriors who don't view their membership solely in terms of their own benefit.

      They contribute their knowledge and expertise without seeking to make any "killing".



      Frank
      Signature
      TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383222].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Matt,

        (my bold)

        Just for the record (and not to take anything away from the general points you made), I should point out that there are many warriors who don't view their membership solely in terms of their own benefit.

        They contribute their knowledge and expertise without seeking to make any "killing".



        Frank
        Point taken Frank. But normally anyone complaining about a post being deleted will not fall into the category of Warrior you're speaking of.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383243].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Then
    Hey... What's wrong with just obeying with the rules, respect the people here, apologise for wrong actions and we live happily ever after.

    Why go all out to become a troll or be angry?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383315].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tjs1954
    Well said!!


    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    I've been doing this mod thing for a long time (23 years), and I think it's time to clear the air about something that's come up several times in the past 24 hours: Why it's a bad plan to argue with a moderator. [snip]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383318].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tjs1954
    I was under the impression that the purpose of this forum was for everyone to help each other make money and learn from one another. I'm here because there is a ton of experience and education available to all of us.

    I am not a "newbie" and certainly not a "guru" by any stretch. If I post a stupid question or something someone else feels is stupid and says so, well I can live with that because it's their personal opinion and they are entitled to it. So I simply would not respond and that's the end of it. I always say "don't fan the flames and the fire goes out".
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383350].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    oh crap I thought the title of the thread meant it was an invitation and i could pick the mod i want to argue with...

    No fun left in this thread now
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383414].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bob,
      oh crap I thought the title of the thread meant it was an invitation and i could pick the mod i want to argue with...
      Just for you. What do you want to argue with me about?

      Go ahead, Pudddy-tat. Argue wit da big bad mouse.


      Paul

      PS: But wait until he's had some sleep...
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383441].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author romolo
      I agree with the Mod and I think that everybody should follow best practice and rules, I got one post deleted and I realized how stupid I was to even write that post, the moderators are here to keep an eye on us and make sure that there is no disrespect between each other.
      So thanks to you Mod and keep up the good work for us :-)
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383455].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Robert,

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      oh crap I thought the title of the thread meant it was an invitation and i could pick the mod i want to argue with...

      Would that be the $25 argument or the $50 argument? ;-)

      John
      Signature
      John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383583].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sylvia Meier
    Excellent post Paul. I love the way it brings out the target demographic as well, the ones who really don't understand it (or choose not to care to understand it) and are set on changing their username tag to Banned.

    And I really have to agree on the perspective that yes you can disagree, if it is done in a respectful manner. I mean, most, if not all, of those who misbehave, wouldn't do it the same way offline. They wouldn't be in someone home and blatently disrespect them, yet they feel free to do it in Allen Says' home, here, which is not alright anymore than it would be offline.

    It's the same thing I teach my children, you can disagree with me and state your side of things, and perhaps it will even change my perspective, but if you come in calling names and screaming, guess what, you're not going to get the reaction you want. Instead you will deal with the consequences of your behaviour, and will never have the chance to respectfully state your ideas or disagreement with me or my decision.

    I moderated a forum once, it was no where near this size, but it had some very passionate folks, who felt that their thoughts and opinions were above those of the group, and you are very right in saying being a mod takes a very thick skin. I did it for give or take a year, and would never do it again.

    With that said, kudos to you and all the long term mods, who have the energy and love for this great place to keep it just that, a great place. And of course, thank you Allen for inviting us into your home.

    Sylvia
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383468].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I don't want to misinterpret Paul's comments (so please correct me if needed), but wanted to clarify something that a few seem to have missed. Suzanne touched on it earlier, but I thought this may help...

    You can argue (respectfully) with a moderator (or anybody else), but you CAN'T argue with their moderation.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383549].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bay37
    Paul,

    You have a lot of experience moderating forums... do these threads ever work? As in, do they actually help put at least a few people on the "right track"?

    Just wondering.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383570].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      You have a lot of experience moderating forums... do these threads ever work? As in, do they actually help put at least a few people on the "right track"?
      That would be something that would be impossible to prove as if it did put some on the "right track", they wouldn't be getting in trouble so wouldn't be noticed.

      9 times out of 10, I've noticed that Paul doesn't really post to warn the idiots but to educate those who already have at least some semblance of "clue". The idiots still will be idiots, and soon or later Paul or another mod will send them packing back to their village.

      But I think fewer people get dragged into the issue because instead of rushing to defend the idiot, they realize that there may be more than meets the eye.

      Tina
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383592].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383651].message }}
        • Well now lookie here! Once again Paul Myers has gone and created another one a them intellictual threads. That is purty much why I don't be understandin most of it!

          But the thing is, after readin this thread, I hang my head in humility and bow down to a new champeen! Let me splain what I mean an you bear with me cause I ain't never took the fast way when there was a scenic route to be had.

          See, I just LOVE fishin. I love it more'n just about ANYTHING else... well, except for one thang and you probably be a KNOWIN what that would be! Yep, the only thang better'n fishin is skinny dippin by myself with a full jug of shine and an unopended pack of chaw... but I distress...

          As I done stated, I LOVE fishin and my favorite fishin hole is Lake Warriorforum. You can catch just about anything you want there if you know what you are a doin. The secret is in the bait you be a usin.

          I used to think I was one a the best fisherfolk there but now I know that I was just a stick a butter on hot asphalt on a hot Texas summer day... there but then quickly gone! An it was all due to the game warden of Lake Warriorforum... Mr. Paul Myers!

          Mr. Paul Myers patrols all around Lake Warriorforum lookin for varmints, vagrants and vandals an he enforces the law around these here parts. What law is that you ask... why, the Law of Common Sense of course! Break it and you are liable to be issued a citation. Break it again and you might be arrested. Keep breakin it and, well, you just vanish (He's sorta like the Mafia ceptin he is in the fishin industry).

          Well now, he done gone fishin around here usin all kinds of bait and he has made a haul. As I look through his catch, I see some Snapper, a few Largemouth Bass, some oh so fine Catfish, some crappie and a few other normal fish. BUT he done went an caught hisself one of the rarest fish around... he caught a Largemouth Carp. Actually, they ain't as rare as they once was around here and they are purty easy to catch. They bite any kind of bait and they do not let go. They are mostly a trash fish so most folk just catch em and release em. Most lakes have an eradication program where they try to get rid of em but they just keep comin back.

          My hat is off to the Game Warden of Lake Warriorforum! I now proclaim Mr. Paul Myers as the King of the Wild Frontier, the Head Hog at the Trough... he IS the Big Fisherman! I wish I had half the brain power of Mr. Myers... hell, I wish I had half the brain power of a slug but that there is another story.

          Anyhow, I am a thankin you Mr. Myers for bein the game warden around here and runnin all the miscreants off a this here property. Some folks keep forgetin that this here is a private lake and the owner is nice enough to be a lettin us fish here. Lake Warriorforum has fed many a fisherfolk over the years an it will feed many more in the future. So I say keep runnin off the varmints, vagrants and vandals and we should all be a doin what we can to eradicate the trash fish. If we take good care a this place, this place will take good care of us!

          Now, I gots to go look for some appropriate bait and go fishin for one a them Largemouth Carps!

          BTW... if you come to Lake Warriorforum and you believe everything you see, you just might be a suckerfish!
          Signature
          Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
          http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386665].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Hillbilly Marketer View Post

            As I done stated, I LOVE fishin and my favorite fishin hole is Lake Warriorforum. You can catch just about anything you want there if you know what you are a doin. The secret is in the bait you be a usin.

            I used to think I was one a the best fisherfolk there but now I know that I was just a stick a butter on hot asphalt on a hot Texas summer day... there but then quickly gone! An it was all due to the game warden of Lake Warriorforum... Mr. Paul Myers!
            lol ... I love fishin too and this thread is a perfect example of how easy it is to catch those varmints with the right lure and bait. They simply can't resist.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386983].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Suzanne,
              lol ... I love fishin too and this thread is a perfect example of how easy it is to catch those varmints with the right lure and bait. They simply can't resist.
              Hence the title of the thread.

              I often wonder how many people actually notice that stuff and understand why it's done that way.


              Paul
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387042].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
                "don't be more of a jerk than is appropriate for the situation,"
                Darn it, no one ever tells me anything.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387073].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Thaddeus,

            That's funny stuff, and kind of you to say, but I have to take exception to part of it. I'm more visible than some of the mods, but that does NOT mean I'm "king" of anything, or that I do more of the work than anyone else. Not by a long shot.

            There are a whole bunch of people who moderate individual sections, and 6 other people who have mod access to the whole forum. At least 3 of those people have higher access levels than I do, and a commensurately higher level of responsibility that goes largely unthanked.

            I discuss this stuff because I think someone should. It's good for the whole group when there's at least one person who explains how things work. So I wear the lightning rod. But that doesn't mean I do any more work than everyone else who helps keep the place up.

            The only reason I'm not mentioning everyone else by name is that I don't know how much attention they want individually. Some folks just want to do the thing without the noise. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to make that decision for them.

            If you really want to thank the moderators, make our tasks easier. Use the report post button more often. I see stuff all the time that should have been reported by 30 people, and was only reported by one, or none at all.

            That whole "member moderator" thing isn't a joke. If enough of you report violations, the posts/threads become invisible, so the damage they do is stopped until we get time to look at them. That makes it all a lot simpler.

            Still, hysterical stuff, as usual.


            Paul
            Signature
            .
            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387035].message }}
            • Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Thaddeus,

              I have to take exception to part of it. I'm more visible than some of the mods, but that does NOT mean I'm "king" of anything, or that I do more of the work than anyone else. Not by a long shot.

              Paul
              Mr. Myers, Just so there is no misunderstandin, I want to be sayin that I never wanted to implicate that the other game wardens here at Lake Warriorforum did any less work than you. I have high admiration for each an ever one a you folks. In fact, one a these here days, I am gonna have each and ever one a you folks come over here to Stumpwood Holler for a Rocky Mountain Oyster fry! Why, we get them oysters fresh off the stem, cooke em up an then we set round the campfire and make bullybags from the leftover pouch. Mmmmm mmmm good!

              Now you get back to patrolin this here lake and don't you get to worryin that I like you better'n any of the other game wardens! I got to stay in good graces with all you folks cause I never know who might be on duty when I go dynamite fishin some night. It helps to have friends in high places at a time like that there!
              Signature
              Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
              http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387245].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      You have a lot of experience moderating forums... do these threads ever work? As in, do they actually help put at least a few people on the "right track"?
      Yes, they do, but that's not the purpose.

      Threads like this help people understand what goes on here, and to arm the ones who want to keep the place sane and helpful with the info they need to help do that. It's been my experience that most folks do quite well on their own, as long as they understand the process. It can seem arbitrary and opaque if you don't know what's involved.

      They also serve as warnings to keep people from going over the important lines.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384060].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
      Not too sure if they help put folks on the right track, but boy they help to get the old brain cells ticking over. And threads like this always bring out some of the best copywriting material for swiping .
      Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

      Paul,

      You have a lot of experience moderating forums... do these threads ever work? As in, do they actually help put at least a few people on the "right track"?

      Just wondering.
      Signature
      San

      The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
      Pay me to play. :) Order a Custom Cover today.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384604].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author bretski
        I agree that arguing with a mod is about as intelligent as flipping a cop off. I am reminded of the movie Appaloosa with Viggo Mortensen. It can be like the wild west and to an extent the rules are whatever the mods say they are.

        If you're part of a bad element with no redeeming value other than for entertainment for the rest of us (such as trolls) you're toast. If you are not providing any value and you are causing problems AND you are no longer amusing you're gone.

        And what about trolls? Why mess with a mod when trolls are plentiful and fun to torment? Why take your infantile rage out on a mod when trolls are so readily available and lack a soul of any sort?
        Signature
        ***Affordable Quality Content Written For You!***
        Experience Content Writer - PM Bretski!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384626].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author eQuus
    If a person is contentious by nature, then that person is always seeking to be offended so he can feed his contentiousness. For a thief caught stealing, it would be silly for him to argue that there was no "No Stealing" sign anywhere.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383637].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      You know, Stede made a comment about moderators that was not only
      uncalled for but shows how clueless he is about what it takes to really be
      a moderator.

      I used to actively moderate at another forum. Not so much now.

      Know why?

      Because I don't have the necessary temperament to do the job properly. I
      tend to take too many things personally and become confrontational with
      members when they behave like jackasses. It's hard for me to separate the
      job from the emotions that tend to go with certain forms of expression.

      In short...not every person has what it takes to put up with the BS that
      you need to put up with when you're a mod because there are members
      who are going to feel that THEY have all the answers and YOU are an
      idiot.

      I have so much respect for people who moderate a forum, willingly, that
      I can't even begin to express that respect.

      If you haven't moderated a forum, especially one of THIS size, you have
      NO right to throw stones at any moderator.

      Walk in THEIR shoes first and THEN we can talk.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383656].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
        A great thread. I must say, after lurking and observing long before I posted or joined, I have been awed by the patience and forbearance exhibited by moderators and members alike. I do not, nor will I ever have that amount of patience. But the thread has inspired me. It could serve as the basis for my next eBook:

        "Arguing With Idiots" , subtitled
        "Is Civilized Discourse Possible in a Quasi-Anonymous Environment?"
        Or do I have that backwards?
        Signature

        Success is not to be pursued; it is to be attracted by the person you become - Jim Rohn

        Visit our beautiful gardens

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383730].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author GhWriter
    I have been a member of other forums where the mods and Admin deleted any post and banned you if you disagreed with their opinion (whether you did it on the forum or on anyone elses site).

    I agree with what Paul said here. The mods have a hard job, and people should show them more respect. the mods here are much better than many other places that I have seen. But, their job isnt perfect either. sometimes I see discussions break down almost to the point of name calling. any time you have a lot of people, you will have a difference of opinion, you will have break downs in the discussion.

    One thing i learned a long time ago is to never put anyone on a pedestal, even your mods here. They do a great job, but dont expect them to be perfect either.

    What it all comes down to though is perfect or not, this is Allen's house, and if he says no, whether it is right or wrong, that is the way it goes. If you don't like it, go to someone else's house to play.

    This is one of the biggest forums for IM, and as such, the mods have a much harder job. Play nice, and do your part to make their job easier.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383738].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post



    It is not possible to slander a fictional creature.

    I have read some pretty nasty things about Minnie Mouse over the years and I am sure that she does not deserve it.
    Signature
    My New Video Series is Free (for now)
    Crazy good marketing tips from the founder of JVZoo.
    Get EBR 365 Now!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383768].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    Paul,

    You really have a way with words.

    Since you are addressing an ongoing problem, that seems to go on and on, I would suggest taking your initial post and making it a sticky. Maybe that would help cut to the chase with the ones that have a hard time getting it.

    Just a thought.

    Thanks,

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383859].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author GrantFreeman
      Originally Posted by globalpro View Post

      Paul,

      You really have a way with words.

      Since you are addressing an ongoing problem, that seems to go on and on, I would suggest taking your initial post and making it a sticky. Maybe that would help cut to the chase with the ones that have a hard time getting it.

      Just a thought.

      Thanks,

      John
      I second this thread becoming a sticky. Paul and the other mods (including you, John) believe in honest service. Service. With a capital "S". To that I thank them.

      It does suck though, when these guys go beyond what's requred and they still get crapped on.

      Grant
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384438].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    In the early days of the internet, there was a lot more freedom than now. It was like the wild west in some ways. Well, those days are over. Sadly, now I have to be very careful with what I say. Hey, might offend some one. It feels like I am walking on eggs.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383949].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dean Martin
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      In the early days of the internet, there was a lot more freedom than now. It was like the wild west in some ways. Well, those days are over. Sadly, now I have to be very careful with what I say. Hey, might offend some one. It feels like I am walking on eggs.
      In the early days (and I've been online since the early '90s running bulletin board systems w/dialup modems) the clientele were more intelligent and more appreciative of the investment needed to run those forums. We invested thousands of dollars in monthly fees just to provide all the dialup lines necessary to run a great hobby.

      Today everyone feels the internet owes them something. Really? The amount of time, energy and expense that happens behind the scenes to make this www thing work is incredible. Getting back to the WF (and I've had my share of frustration) if you really thing you can do this better it's a wide open expanse of surfers and hosting accounts.

      It's not hard - this is a simple vbulletin setup that you can put online tomorrow for $250. Unfortunately, it is hard - building a viable business on this platform is something many of us have tried over and over again - some successes, some failures.

      A good forum has a life of it's own that can't be duplicated (at least not easily). Moderators and forum admins deal with more spam, crap, idiots than anyone can imagine (unless you've been there).

      It's very simple - enjoy the benefits and live within the rules of this particular niche of cyberspace - or move somewhere else (or start your own).
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2383993].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Isn't that slightly easier to do for you, Dan? You know, being one second into the future, and all.


        No, I was maybe luckier.

        I moderated a news forum, which often delved into politics, before moderating a scifi forum. I was a participant on another scifi forum before moderating my own and I knew the moderator.

        And the worst of the political discussions were never as bad as the worst of the scifi discussions. I mean, you'd have the name-calling and people calling each other Nazis and all that, and that would be tame compared to some of the stuff that went on in the scifi forums.

        Fortunately for me, by the time I was moderated my own scifi forum, I knew who the crazies were and just didn't invite them or anyone likely to invite them, which was a miniscule number, if there were any at all.


        Originally Posted by dlmartin View Post

        In the early days (and I've been online since the early '90s running bulletin board systems w/dialup modems) the clientele were more intelligent and more appreciative of the investment needed to run those forums.
        Then you were lucky.
        Signature

        Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

        Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384061].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Oh good heavens...

      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      In the early days of the internet, there was a lot more freedom than now. It was like the wild west in some ways. Well, those days are over. Sadly, now I have to be very careful with what I say. Hey, might offend some one. It feels like I am walking on eggs.
      Hopefully I'm not skirting too heavily on the political side, but I think I have something that will help people.

      I believe that everyone has 3 basic rights - life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. In those, private property, freedom of speech, and so forth, are all contained.

      Here is my point: You have every right, here in the US, to say whatever you want, so long as your use of that right doesn't violate the rights of someone else.

      So, Allen owns this forum. It's his property. He makes the rules, he appoints the enforcer of those rules.

      You have a right to say whatever you want, on your own property, or in a public place (so long as you don't violate others rights).

      You can't say or do whatever you want on this property because its not yours. And if you do so and it hurts the forum (and the owner in the process) your "right" to free speech just violated Allen's right to property.

      Thus, you get kicked off the property.

      Now, you want to go bash the Warrior Forum all over the internet, on properties you own, go ahead. You can do that all you want.

      Hopefully this explains a very basic principle of political freedom.

      Rob
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384034].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author FusciaPhoenix
    I haven't been here on this site long enough to truly know the inner politics (if any) that are present, but I would have to say that I agree with the mod 100%.

    I've moderated more than my fair share of forums. Most with explosive or controversial discussions to begin with, and I know that this phenomena happens over and over again and will only get worse before it gets better if not stopped immediately by a mod. It also causes a ripple effect and shatters the entire forum experience.

    Unfortunately people like to engage in retribution tactics when they feel like they have been wronged, but no matter if they state their point or not, it's very rare that a mod's decision will be reversed so it's best to just keep it moving. It's also best to keep in mind on any forum the old saying "it's not what you say but how you say it" that will make your experience here or on any forum go smoothly.

    But for those who do not want a smooth experience, there will be absolutely nothing that anyone can say to satisfy them so why waste time? I think that everyone here is on a particular kind of mission, one that does not need to be hindered by engaging in sandbox behavior. It's probably best that some take their ball and go home. None of us are perfect, but sometimes it's best to agree to disagree and leave the rest alone. It's not personal... it's business.

    I kind of feel at home already, forums are --->

    Phoenix
    Signature

    “To make our way, we must have firm resolve, persistence, tenacity. We must gear
    ourselves to work hard all the way. We can never let up”. Ralph Bunche

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384740].message }}
  • Moderating posts in a high quality and high traffic forum such as this is not only necessary but mandatory. If it was run in purely democratic fashion, it may turn into a chaotic and possibly an unusable forum. Further, even though the forum policies should be and have been clearly laid out, the rationale underlying the moderation process on a forum of this magnitude needn't be made public. I applaud the forum mods to discuss all this in such an open manner.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384825].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TheMagicShow
    This place will never change, either play by the rule, or hit the road. The Mods have their reasons for their actions and fighting them, is like fighting a losing battle. This place, has tons of value...for those that seek it!

    O-K, back to hibernation again
    Signature

    " You can either give a man a fish and feed him for a day OR teach him how to catch a fish and it will feed him for a lifetime"

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384930].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ArgentStar
    Someone pointed me in the direction of this thread today and I was compelled to sign up here and add my kudos. I've been a mod for about 3-4 years now. Nowhere near as long as the OP, but long enough to agree with everything that he's said here.

    The community I moderate is perhaps unusually tight-knit and has been through a lot over the years. Including migration across several forums and ending (hopefully) on one set up specifically for refugee members out of the goodness and grace (and pocket) of a most excellent individual.

    It's unlikely I'll post here again, as I'm very much a one-forum guy. (Time, apart from anything else) But thanks for putting into words a great deal of what it is to be a mod and many of the troubles we face for giving up our free time to support a group of people we care about. It made for an entertaining read and very much struck a chord.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2384989].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Goatboy
    Originally Posted by kiopa2
    I don't agree at all. Right now, I'm being punished because I broke rules I didn't even know existed. Actually, that's wrong. I'm being punished because I stroke Paul's ego the wrong way, and obviously it's easier pushing the "ban" button, then it is to address a valid concern. Really, look at the two posts I made in this thread. How does that possibly constitute a ban?

    How would you like it if for example, the police pulled you over one day, and:

    Police: You broke XXX law.

    You: What??? That's not even a law!

    Police: Ohhh, it is a law. We just didn't put it on the books. Here's your $300 ticket though.

    You: What?!? I'm not paying that. It's not even a law!

    Police: Oh, you're going to argue with me? Ok, here's a new ticket for $600 then.

    Same ****. Been banned for a week for absolutely no reason. And more than likely, after Paul reads this post, I'll be banned for 3 months, if not permanently. Up to him...
    Wrong, this is not the same. Warrior Forum is private property and the owner and his agents have every right to police it as they see fit. They can make any rules they want and, as users, we have to abide by them or simply leave.

    There is no right of free speech because WF is not public property, we are here at the sufferance of Allen. Every post we make is on his dime, not ours. He gets to make the house rules.

    We all know that you have no right to enter someone's house and insult them, argue with them, or steal from them. Why does it need to be posted?


    At one time, I was one of those
    nut jobs who insisted that he was right and the world was out to get him.
    Steven, I will admit that a few of the people on this forum have interested me enough to google their names to see what else is said about them online. I have investigated yourself, Mr. Myers, Allan and a couple of others.

    From some of the things I have read about you, I would say that there are some people out there who really are out to get you. It is those kinds of despicable and hateful things being said about decent people that keeps me hanging back from fully committing to some aspects of IM.

    Perhaps someday I will grow to have the same level of guts that you have displayed. My hat is off to you, sir.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385006].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Cutsizzle
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385459].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Sometimes moderators take their job a little too seriously at times.
      We're human. We have different perspectives, and a lot of the role is subjective to begin with. So, that may well be true at times.

      I'd be curious to know where you define the lines, and what "taking it too seriously" means...


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385578].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        We're human.
        Hmmm. Do you have any evidence to prove that bold claim?


        Becky
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386663].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 2stace
    Paul (Mod), if I have broken any rules on here, please let me know. I don't see where the "rules" are listed. I am new here.

    Thank you.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385473].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Stacy,
      Paul (Mod), if I have broken any rules on here, please let me know. I don't see where the "rules" are listed. I am new here.
      The written ones are in the stickies at the top of the main forum. Some sub-sections have rules specific to them, which are also at the top of each page in those sections.

      The unwritten rules tend to be things like "don't try to sell in a discussion area," "read before replying," "don't be more of a jerk than is appropriate for the situation," and stuff like that. They're mostly common sense.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385552].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    Nice thread

    I've had a number of my posts, threads deleted over the years. Yeah I may have been a tad pissed over a couple of them, but I just shrugged my shoulders and moved on, what's the point of beating yourself up over it, there was obviously something not quite right about them.

    I also used to be pretty confrontational, (and abrasive) when I first joined, however I like to think my behaviour has improved since then. I usually try to be more constructive before I say something. (Usually works).

    I'll reiterate what others have said, its hard work moderating forums, (I've done plenty of moderating myself). It can be a thankless task

    Kim
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2385751].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Brandon Sheley
    I tend not to argue with staff members of the forums I visit. I figure if they want to put in their time to help out a forum, I'll give the respect of not getting in their way and let them do their job.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386268].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jagged
    How does one become a forum moderator at the WF?
    Is it on a voluntary basis?
    Is it based on recommendation or request from Allen?
    I'm just curious as to the moderator evolution process...

    ~Ken





    *I understand that we all are mods to a degree, but i'm referring to a reconized, card carrying mod.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386429].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by Jagged View Post

      I'm just curious as to the moderator evolution process...
      Well, most moderators started several billion years ago as single-celled organisms living in the primordial ooze...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386588].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author bretski
      Originally Posted by Jagged View Post

      How does one become a forum moderator at the WF?
      Is it on a voluntary basis?
      Is it based on recommendation or request from Allen?
      I'm just curious as to the moderator evolution process...
      Short straw loses...or do they use the "one potatoe, two potatoe, three potatoe four" method these days?
      Signature
      ***Affordable Quality Content Written For You!***
      Experience Content Writer - PM Bretski!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2386596].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
    Hi Paul,

    In the original post, you almost make it seem as if using a brand name is a negative. In many of my posts, I sign off as "Eric" or "Eric Allen Fisher", but I wanted Bizboost, my business moniker to be branded over time. Does using Eric Allen Fisher for my name prove I'm Eric Allen Fisher?

    I'm just trying to understand how using a business name, instead of a birth name, makes one's point less legitimate. After all, this is a forum for developing our marketing *business*, so a business name seems perfectly normal. But, a jerk is a jerk whether they use their real name, or a business name.

    So, what's the difference really? Either a point has merit, or it doesn't, right?

    Thanks,
    Eric
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387174].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

      Hi Paul,

      In the original post, you almost make it seem as if using a brand name is a negative. In many of my posts, I sign off as "Eric" or "Eric Allen Fisher", but I wanted Bizboost, my business moniker to be branded over time. Does using Eric Allen Fisher for my name prove I'm Eric Allen Fisher?

      I'm just trying to understand how using a business name, instead of a birth name, makes one's point less legitimate. After all, this is a forum for developing our marketing *business*, so a business name seems perfectly normal. But, a jerk is a jerk whether they use their real name, or a business name.

      So, what's the difference really? Either a point has merit, or it doesn't, right?

      Thanks,
      Eric

      Everyone is going to call you erick anyway... why not make them remember it. What if Tony Robbins went by the name of his corporation?

      Corporations dont talk on forums... but Erick does.

      Mostly it appears less anonymous and inspires more trust.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387189].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Eric, there's a big difference (in my mind, at least) between someone who uses a real name, a business name, even a weird screen name that means something to them, and the anonymous non-entities with no background and a screen name that looks like someone dropped a sandwich on the keyboard.

        You use a business name, you sign off with your real name, and you contribute. When I read your posts, I'm pretty confident that I'm reading something from a real person, not a bot or a mind-blank outsourcer somewhere just picking up spare change from forum posting.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387791].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author cannylad
          Just out of curiosity where demographically are the worst offenders?
          Are they U.S. or Europe.

          Are they from hot climates and need to chill out,

          Or from cold climates and are hot heads.

          I'm a newbie and am thinking of putting an anger management W.S.O together.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2438596].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Just out of curiosity where demographically are the worst offenders? Are they U.S. or Europe.
            The UK. Specifically, 2 or 3 people who feel the need to repeat the same patterns, over and over. They serve a useful purpose, in providing live examples of the kinds of unhealthy obsessions that can easily be formed when your ego overrides your judgement. Seeing that level of unreasoning mania can make people aware of the tendencies that lead to it, which helps them to know when they're being crazy.

            There are a few others making up that group, spread out over most of the rest of the world, but the UK contingent is especially extreme. Keep in mind that this isn't a comment on any group as a whole. Just a very small handful of unstable individuals.

            It's a testament to how few of these people there are, when a group of 2 or 3 makes up the biggest concentration of persistent repeat offenders. There are slightly more in the US, but they're much more spread out.

            As a rule, most of this stuff is one-off behavior. People make mistakes, learn, and adapt. That's pretty evenly spread throughout the world. There are some regionalized patterns, but none especially worse than any other, at least that I can think of offhand.


            Paul
            Signature
            .
            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2438760].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author cannylad
              Paul

              I'm from the UK and have had different jobs dealing with angry people on a professional level.

              My life lessons from those jobs were.

              People who are a problem, have a problem.

              You can't please all of the people all of the time

              Illegitimi non carborundum...

              Warrior forum is a unique and valued forum

              Thanks to you and other moderators
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2438992].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                People who are a problem, have a problem.
                Maybe. Most of the time, the "problem" is just lack of experience or a bad day. Or maybe just misinterpreting something. Transitory conditions, rather than actual problems. Now, the persistent offenders are a different story.
                Illegitimi non carborundum...
                I love that line...


                Paul
                Signature
                .
                Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2439004].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      But Eric, you do include your name in your posts. You are associated with your brand.

      Many come in and have no business name, no real name, no pic...they are a nonentity for all intents and purposes.

      You have a stake in the reputation earned by your brand. JoeBlow231 does not.

      Tina
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387194].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Eric,

        Go back and re-read the context in which I mentioned it, and pay attention to the word chosen: Anonymous. We have quite a lot of people who use brands and domain names as their usernames, but are anything but anonymous.

        TMG Enterprises, for example...

        When you have that much invested in the reputation associated with an account, it matters to you if that goes away. Truly anonymous people put nothing at risk at all in creating ill will of various kinds.

        I've long said that I don't care about anonymous usernames that aren't bashing and aren't trying to sell something here. I don't care if you call yourself Thaddaeus Hogg Jr if you're not doing troublesome things. Although, Thaddaeus might.


        Paul

        Edit: PS: Here's the really relevant quote: "If you can't put your name behind an insult, you have no damned business issuing it." That shoe doesn't fit you.
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387216].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Eric, it's pretty easy to tell the difference. Brands sound like brands. But when your name is "EddyIronMaiden" or "SuperstarManson," that's not your brand.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387191].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author -Sam
    We're here for the benefit of the overwhelming majority of the people to whom this message doesn't apply.
    I fear modz. I do. That's why my post count suck. They are powerful, yes, they are.
    Just imagine, a sane member reacts insane JUST because of a post deleted by a mod. Man, that's epic.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2387290].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sonomacats
    But ... but ... but ... my posts are SPECIAL. ;(

    My only quibble is when a thread gets deleted and you have absolutely no idea why. I was following a thread not too long ago and it got zapped and I never saw anything on it that was inappropriate. (And it was a pretty useful thread, too.) In a case like that, it would be nice to know why in case of inadvertent goofs.

    On the other hand, as Paul says, the mods are pretty busy and I do understand why that's not likely or possible. It just would be nice.
    Signature

    Writing as Kieran McKendrick
    You can find the first prequel to my Purgatory series (How Blended are Dust and Fire) on Amazon and Smashwords.

    Whether you think you can or think you cannot, you are right. -- Henry Ford

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2439176].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I was following a thread not too long ago and it got zapped and I never saw anything on it that was inappropriate.
      Lots of possible reasons. One of the most common is people pulling a thread in a nasty direction that is predictably going to reoccur if the thread is left up.

      A less common cause is background stuff that might not be visible to anyone but the mods. I won't get into the types of situation that can cause that, but they happen every day or so.

      In most cases, deleting of threads doesn't reflect much on the posters. Just like banning doesn't always mean the person banned is somehow "bad." Just that they needed to make a procedural adjustment that a simple "please stop" is unlikely to effect.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2439198].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Lots of possible reasons. One of the most common is people pulling a thread in a nasty direction that is predictably going to reoccur if the thread is left up.

        Paul
        I've become a bit adept at predicting if a thread's going to have a short
        shelf life. Read enough of them and it's not hard to see what's coming
        next, or where people are headed. lol


        Ken
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2439213].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author kennethtang
    "I will not punish my people for their beliefs, only for their deeds" - Elizabeth I

    Watch the video clip below. While the mods here are nowhere as good looking as Her Majesty, we feel much the way she did...and act accordingly

    Fear Creates Fear - Movie Clip from Elizabeth: The Golden Age at WingClips.com

    Kenneth
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2440798].message }}

Trending Topics