I'm Sick Of It -- And A Proposal...

15 years ago

Does a long post = a better post?

I thought one of the copywriting rules is to say your message in the least words possible (or something similar).

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obiswill 15 years ago

Originally Posted by James Schramko

Does a long post = a better post?

I thought one of the copywriting rules is to say your message in the least words possible (or something similar).

I agree! Someone shouldn't be measured by the length of their post, but rather by the content of what was said. You have to realize that everyone is different, and has different knowledge, and comes here to learn/share in different ways. You shouldn't want to punish 'differences,' instead learn to embrace them.
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- Chri5123 15 years ago
  
  Yes, I think rather then the length of the post what should be looked at more is whether or not the post is providing value?
  
  The way I look at it is a forum thread is like a discussion and sometimes you do not need to write several pages of content.
  
  Also even if people are writing quick posts to try and get their post counts up, what difference will this make?
  
  As if they are doing it to gain more credibility, then a simple look at the number of posts someone has will not acheive this and the only way to get this is to leave good answers that provide value.
  
  Just my 2 pence.
  
  Chris
  
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  Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  Judy, I see where you're coming from with this. In many cases, this will
  work, especially with thread starters. As you know, most of my thread
  starters are novels and ironically, I get blasted for them from a lot of people
  who ask me to just get to the point. So you can't please everybody no
  matter what you do.
  
  As for answering questions, some questions only require a yes or no answer.
  This one doesn't so it lends to a lengthier reply. But what if somebody as
  a thread starter asks this?
  
  "I am looking into getting an autoresponder service. Which one do you
  suggest? I hear all about Aweber and GetResponse. Are they the best?"
  
  Not a very long thread, would you agree? But it certainly says everything
  the person needs to say, especially if he can't think of other questions
  like, "Who has the best delivery rate?" or "Who is the cheapest?" Some
  people just can't write long questions.
  
  Now, getting to the reply to such an inquiry, we can get things like...
  
  "I have been using Aweber for 5 years and couldn't be happier. I highly
  recommend it."
  
  This is a glowing testimonial but it's 2 sentences. Can you give a bad mark
  to somebody for an answer like this?
  
  So you see the problem? You can say so much in so few words and say
  almost nothing in many words.
  
  I think we, as the members, have to watch the posts of others and see
  what kind of "value" they bring to the forum.
  
  Now, if John Doe answers every post with "I agree" then naturally he's not
  adding any value and probably needs to be dealt with.
  
  But somebody who answers every post...
  
  "I have been using Aweber for 5 years and couldn't be happier. I highly
  recommend it."
  
  Or something along those lines depending on the topic, can be seen as
  adding value. He's helping others to make a decision based on his own
  personal experience, even if he's only stating that experience in s few
  words.
  
  Bottom line: I don't think your plan can work as a black or white sort
  of thing. You have to look at the content of the posts.
  
  There is no other way to do it.
  
  And there ends yet another one of my novels.
  
  I have to get a life.
  
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Diana Lane

15 years ago

I see what you're saying, but often a brief answer is all that's required (a simple line of code, for example). Size isn't important, it's the quality that counts.

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Eric Engel

15 years ago

There was a thread started about this a few weeks ago. One I wish I could find.

The thread starter (I can't remember who) had pointed out that sometimes fresh marketers don't always have something REAL important to add, but they really want to show their appreciation...so they simply give a thankyou post or reply with something short and sweet.

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SaSeoPete

15 years ago

I agree, as someone who is just starting out really, I usually dont have much to add to the advice given out.

Much like this....

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kumar 15 years ago

Judy,

Look at it from a newbie's perspective. Mostly, he would ask questions (and thus, still contribute)or show some innocent appreciation by posting something like he would try to work on the advices given by some warriors who helped him out. Either way, the posts would be short.

Also, if at all such a proposal is implemented, won't the warriors consciously try to lengthen their posts even though whatever they wanted to convey, they did in their first 2-3 lines?
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John Taylor

15 years ago

Men of few words are the best men.
~~William Shakespeare

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James Schramko

15 years ago

If Steve could just post in all the short post threads they will all balance out just right ?

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Melody

15 years ago

It's a great idea - but as pointed out - just judging by the length of the post won't help. The only truly fair way would be to have a HUMAN actually read and 'score' each post - and then, I am sure someone would be screaming that his or her posts were not being scored objectively....not to mention the fact that the Mods are volunteers and the sheer volume of posts to read and score would be overwhelming.

I applaud the idea of quality control - but I think actually implementing the concept would be a nightmare.

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Emailrevealer

15 years ago

I think there's already a feature that regulates the length of posts.

BTW srt of a reated tpic but I just got an infraction on another forum because I replied to a thread about spyfu" I don't find the adwords feature very accurate"

What more did they want me to say? I think if we are going to smehow forse people write long posts its going to be harmful to the content of the forum.

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kumar

15 years ago

Just thinking aloud: A rep feature where warriors with a certain minimum number of posts could accredit a fellow member's post by giving him reps, which could show up in his profile. Would this give more credibility to a warrior than judging him solely by the number of posts he has made?

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TheMagicShow

15 years ago

Originally Posted by kumar

Just thinking aloud: A rep feature where warriors with a certain minimum number of posts could accredit a fellow member's post by giving him reps, which could show up in his profile. Would this give more credibility to a warrior than judging him solely by the number of posts he has made?

The rep feature is heavily flawd and a post is a post whether a long story filled post or a short to the point post!

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mbealmear

15 years ago

The post should not be measured by how many words or sentences there are. Like many have already said...some of these threads do not need a "novel" for a reply, and often the 2-3 sentence answers are the better ones. Straight and to the point without all the fluff.

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Ken Preuss 15 years ago

Judy,

What goes around comes around. People who offer little get little - the world gives them back exactly what they gave which is very little.

The way to handle these folks is to ignore them or report their post if you truly believe they are abusing the system.

Just my .02,
Ken
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GrantFreeman

15 years ago

Originally Posted by zapseo

It seems pretty clear to me that there are a ton of folks
who make minimal posts to bump up their post count.

It's not that the posts are "bad" per se -- but, over on the copywriting forum I see a lot of posts that are 2 -3 lines of advice (requested by the OP) that sometimes seem like they are simply copy and pasted from (or even spun!) from pieces of other posts.

So, it's hard to really say the posts are "spam" -- but I don't really get the feeling that some of these folks are really trying to participate in WF.

Proposal:
Well -- this may or may not work as a metric -- but it would be an interesting thing to investigate.

But what if you (Allen/admins) the average length of posts and compare the length to posters known for providing high quality content.

It could be something displayed in the post profile -- average post length (in words/lines.) At least then it would give some indication. And people who frequently make posts of 2-3 lines ONLY could be caught up in some sort of "you're really a spammer in disguise" sweep.

And if said spammers lengthen their posts to try and get around this limitation--the posts will either make sense or they won't. In which case we can have another reason for reporting posts: gibberish.

Okay...I've put on my asbestos suit -- let the flames begin!

Live JoyFully!

Judy Kettenhofen, Profit Strategist/Copywriter
NextDay Copy

Sorry if this puts a wedge in your gears, but this OP is indeed pretty damn useless. Think about this..

There are people here that are brand spanking new to the Warrior Forum that are looking for good internet marketing help/advice/tips/instructions.

They want to find a solution to their problem.
They want a way to make something they are already doing, better.
They want to learn how to make money with their websites or how to write articles, or whatever.

One of the problems with posts like this one, is that it offers NO value for an individual to attain the points above.

The solution to what you stated is simple:

If you feel that people don't want to offer value and only care about raising their post count, then you can either see it as a waste of your time and ignore it alltogether, or give them an infraction.

I don't understand your proposal. I'd rather spend time doing more productive things other than trying to change/regulate something that already has tools in place for spammers and other time-wasters.

There's nothing wrong with giving short responses.

Often times, I'll simply give a reference to a thread I think offers real value to the question asked. Why?

Because there are MANY more IM'ers here that are better at making money on the net than me, and the reference I make has more value than what I'm able to give. Besides, it saves me time and effort..I think fast but I write slow.

In the end, it's only YOUR perception of weather a post has value or not.

Grant

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jedz

Banned 15 years ago

Well, it depends on the content of the post. I think we should make it this way, which is better a long post that doesn't make any sense or a short post that is straight forward and has its value and sense?

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Kay King 15 years ago

Allen pointed out recently that members are being reticent about saying "useless post" or pointing out no name for the member or questioning the "fact" posted.

There are new members who want to participate (because they've read they should advertise on forums!) but have no experience to share. Some will ask good questions - many give answers from other forums while others will just think up "something" to say in order to post . But then, there are experienced people who just think up things to say, too.

Some start with useless one liners then wise up and get better - others just pass through and are gone. New (very young?) members bump their threads when answers are not given immediately.

Tolerance is a good thing. I'd rather see some useless posts than see a forum where what you can say is carefully controlled.

kay
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Elmer Hurlstone

15 years ago

Judy,

Your courage is certainly to be admired. Not only are you willing to face flames but you willingly subject yourself to the potential hazards of asbestos aspiration.

Over time we've all seen short posts that added nothing to a discussion and long posts that performed no better.

Mr. Shakespeare, via Polonius, in Hamlet, said "...brevity is the soul of wit..."

In that context "wit" was synonymous with wisdom.

Some short posts are rife with wisdom--others not. Longer posts may or may not, depending on poster, provide value.

There is also a major subjectivity factor involved. Yesterday in an email I read 25 words that told me more and more clearly explained a concept than many 500 word articles and more than one 40 or 50 page ebook. To someone else it may have been just another 25 words...

Sometimes size really doesn't matter.

But, that's just my medium length opinion.

Elmer

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grumpyjacksa

15 years ago

if everything has to be an analytic discussion, making any post will be much more time consuming, and many more will revert to just lurking.

if i have to write an article, i prefer to submit it somewhere that will send me some traffic. and since i am not into IM as a niche, posting articles in the WF will probably not help much.

if you feel somebody is just "wasting forum space", just flag the post.

keep in mind that, although your post is longer than three lines, you have now also created a post "To attract attention". The previous responses have pretty much proven your statement to be impractical, so......

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Ivan Correces

15 years ago

I disagree with the proposal...I'm done.

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

Judy, one other thing that I should have mentioned.

The members here who participate regularly are not idiots.

They can easily spot the "post booster" by this consistent "nice post"
entries. These people will never get any recognition and probably get
nowhere with their business lives.

The other side of the coin are people like Chris Rempel, Paul Myers, Big Mike,
John Taylor, Andy Henry, and so many others who consistently add value to
this forum.

In other words, we know who to listen to and who not.

I give the people here credit for having at least that much intelligence.
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lakerk

15 years ago

I got flamed a couple of weeks ago for saying something similar OP. I asked a question and got 2 or 3 incredible responses and 5 or 6 copy pasted, "just take action". "Focus on one thing posts." I was frustrated.

But the good outweigh the bad. That's for sure.

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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

I haven't seen any obvious one liner sig promoters lately.

Some of the worst posts here are the longest ones.

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Fendi Salim

15 years ago

I don't think its a good idea as well... I've been an admin and mod of another forum and the only reason the OP exists is because the WF is a well established place.

It's pretty daunting for most people already to start posting or replying to posts not knowing if people will reply or appreciate what they post since either they are new or they don't know anyone here.

Remember the time when the forum is so new and the admin will pretty much take in anything that comes bar the spam and tries to reply to every post or at least the mods will be there.

What happens when the forum becomes established and the opposite happens? ie newbies posts are not replied as much as someone with reputation in the forum or the mods and admin just sit back.

It's like a vicious [inner circle] cycle isn't it?

Well spam, disguised spam etc will exist in forums and I think the WF has done well to limit its number.

I'm sure many would like to reply to more threads and give value but... let's just say we are "shy"

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zapseo

15 years ago

First of all,

Thanks to you all -- even the people who made short posts here, I definitely get the feeling that there is intelligent life behind the post.

As for those folks who suggested rep points -- well ... when we moved over to the "new" Warrior Forum, such things used to exist. It died due to abuse.

Now I admit, I don't spend a lot of time on the main forum these days, but hang out in the copywriting forum. I dropped a note to Kay the other day and had wondered where I'd been, LOL.

But when people ask for feedback on their sales page -- people who make one or 2 line posts with such profound and meaty one-liners like "use emotional. tell a story" -- where the prior posts in the thread are lengthy and chewy -- it has a drag on the overall conversation.

So, if it's okay that I hit the infraction button, that's fine with me.

Note, too, that I've been on the forum going on 5 years -- and I also have been admin/mod on a variety of forums. The behvior I see seems defniitely atypical from the kinds of posting behvior I've seen in newbies on the past. Heck -- I remember "newbies" Steve Wagenheim, Ross Goldberg and Brian Koz.

@James...what does copywriting have to do with this discussion?

@all
Note, folks -- that some of the metrics that show up in our post profile ALREADY don't necessarily mean anything -- such as how many posts someone has, or when they joined the Warrior Forum. Taken by themselves, they can be abused. But the statistic itself, average lines/words per post could be a subtle encouragement to provide more in-depth conversation.

Like I said, it would be an interesting statistic to have. And to use as just one piece in a profile that helps to give an overall impression.

Seriously -- I think it's fascinating that most people don't seem to be reacting to the actual "meat" of the proposal. But people not really reading other folks' post before responding is pretty common, LOL, and is hardly limited to forums.

Yall are great contrarians, LOL.

Ah well, thanks for playing.

Live JoyFully!

Judy Kettenhofen, Copywriter/Profit Strategist
NextDay Copy

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Alexa Smith

Banned 15 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by alexa_s

This structuralist approach to forum posting is certainly an intriguing suggestion. I really think that in addition to counting the numbers of words everyone uses, Allen ought to be expected to come up with a weighting system, perhaps allowing something extra for adjectives and adverbs, additional credit for simile and metaphor, penalties for hyperbole, oxymoron and so on. I don't really understand how we've managed without it, actually.

Alexa, do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your post?

Hard for me to tell because I am such a literal person.

** EDIT ** Was this reply too short?

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jacktackett 15 years ago

A three line post from Steven - I don't think so. Who are you and what have you done with Steven! How did you hack his account? We want him back - NOW!

Judy,
I know where you're coming from - but you need to be careful what you incent people to do.

As a programmer I've had to deal with all sorts of insanity - the most fun one was a bug hunt - whoever found the most bugs won a certain $$ per bug. Folks coded up some nice bonus, but of course after the inflation management realized their mistake and had to change the rules (or be forced to take out a loan :-) )

Some humans will expend more energy trying to game the system rather than expending that energy on working within the rules. Sometimes its just the thrill of the chase (can I do this?), sometimes its just an unethical attempt to gain something for 'nothing'.

but thanks for the thought provoking post!
best,
--Jack

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Alexa, do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your post?

Hard for me to tell because I am such a literal person.

** EDIT ** Was this reply too short?
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zapseo

15 years ago

Originally Posted by alexa_s

This structuralist approach to forum posting is certainly an intriguing suggestion. I really think that in addition to counting the numbers of words everyone uses, Allen ought to be expected to come up with a weighting system, perhaps allowing something extra for adjectives and adverbs, additional credit for simile and metaphor, penalties for hyperbole, oxymoron and so on. I don't really understand how we've managed without it, actually.

Do fangs come with this post?

Ah well, how appropriate -- since it's near Hallowe'en and all.

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Elmer Hurlstone

15 years ago

Originally Posted by zapseo

...Seriously -- I think it's fascinating that most people don't seem to be reacting to the actual "meat" of the proposal. But people not really reading other folks' post before responding is pretty common, LOL, and is hardly limited to forums.

I may have been accused of that before. By my wife, I think.

Elmer

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Nick Brighton

15 years ago

I agree.

(rubs his hands as his 840th post is made....)

Actually, I don't think this is a good idea at all. This is a forum for free speech (providing you follow the guidelines). You can't tell someone that the only way they can contribute is by writing more, that's ludicrous.

You'll end up with bigger spam posts or people not bothering to post quick replies due to the fear of being called a spammer.

I think we should leave the forum as it is. I aint broke, so don't need fixing. Plus I think the mods do a good enough job filtering out the REAL spam from the genuine members.

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Terry Hatfield

15 years ago

Huh????????

Seriously why are worrying if others bump their post count. You need to get your priorities straight and mind your own business, that is your money making business I mean lol.

You are spending way to much time reading this forum.

Terry

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Tsnyder

15 years ago

Posting and rating... rating and posting... to what end?

As I see it the main benefit derived from these short, meaningless
posts is that I don't waste much time reading them. I find that
preferable to wading through long and tedious posts only to come
to the end and find that nothing of value was really said.

Building post count for the pure sake of having a high number
is a fool's game... I don't have time to care if some want to play
that game.

In the end, we all determine the quality and credibility of fellow
Warriors by the content they provide.

Tsnyder

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Lashley

15 years ago

Seems like it would be more accurate to evaluate someone's contribution than judge their motives through the Internet. If we assume we can judge their motives we will scramble the good eggs with the bad. If we judge based on their contribution we need not worry about their motives.

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Bruce NewMedia

15 years ago

...bad idea.

______
Bruce

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Dmitry

15 years ago

You can't force things into happening - that's my opinion and it's a short one. You can hate me.

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Jakehyten

15 years ago

wait what?

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zapseo

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jakehyten

wait what?

You are looking for a discussion of the statistical term average, perhaps?

Well, I s'pose we could use medians and modes and throw in a standard deviation or two.

The Election is less than a week away...I detect a "throw the bums out" air...

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Banned 15 years ago

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zapseo

15 years ago

Originally Posted by davebo

This is the most ridiculous post/idea I've ever heard in my life. Who cares about post length.

I don't even read long posts on here unless it's by a poster that I respect. Most of the time they can get the point across quicker and more effectively.

Wow, davebo -- sorry about your limited experience.

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- zapseo 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by davebo
  
  Save your apologies for the people that were unfortunate enough to read this suggestion and have wasted 15 seconds of their life.
  
  Hmmm....that would include you, yeah?
  
  What does that say about you that you continue to respond to the thread???
  
  Okay, enuf fun. I'll go back to hanging out in the copywriting forum.
  
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Alexa Smith Banned 15 years ago

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- zapseo 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by alexa_s
  
  I was actually thinking there's more than enough deviation for most people, just in this thread alone. :confused:
  
  no doubt, Alexa -- and scant enough for a civiliized discussion.
  
  But, like I say -- Hallowe'en is nearly here as are the elections.
  
  A friendly group -- this isn't.
  
  @Lashley -- as if a sound bite can sum up what is applicable and useful in all sitatuations.
  To generalize that all short posts are the result of long and thoughtful deliberation --especially the ones I'm referring to -- would be faulty. But thanks for sharing.
  
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bellynoodle

15 years ago

Being new to the site as well as to internet marketing it can be difficult to post with the knowledge that experts have. I know that the few times that I have posted my posts where questions, all of which were just a few sentences.

I also find that when reading through posts from other people I find something interesting and hesitate to post because I don't know enough about internet marketing yet. I don't want to ramble about things I dont yet know in depth so my post are usually very brief.

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Lashley

15 years ago

Abraham Lincoln once wrote a long letter to a friend. At the end of it he wrote, "I apologize for writing such a long letter but I did not have time to write a short one."

'nuff said.

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cadillac48

15 years ago

I am sure there are lots of folks that are really trying to help others and not spamming that only post two or three lines. It is not that difficult to to separate the b.s from the quality comments. Remember, some people can say more in two lines than others can say in 50. It is not the quantity that counts, it is the quality!

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George Sepich

15 years ago

Judy,
I think comparing lengths could be a whole new private part of the forum.

George

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zapseo 15 years ago

Originally Posted by George Sepich

Judy,
I think comparing lengths could be a whole new private part of the forum.

George

I don't believe it George! You won!!!!

I nominate your post the best post of the thread.
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