Joel Comm On "What's Wrong w/ Internet Marketing"...

67 replies
Hi Warriors,

I just read Joel Comm's blog and his opinion on what's wrong w/ Internet
marketing and it's a must read for the average marketer and especially
the so-called "gurus" out there that are pushing their products & services.

He touches on what I've said a million times before and that is...

"WHY are the gurus revealing and willing to sell their systems and secrets
that are supposedly earning them truckloads of money?

And if they're already earning thousands & thousands of dollars why do
they stick it to the average marketer with their "$1,997" price tags if they're
already earning $50,000 or $100,000 per month?"

It's like Apple or Google saying that even though they earn BILLIONS of
dollars (per quarter) they're willing to sell their systems/secrets for
$19,997?

Joel Comm says:

"There is no get rich quick method! If there were, people wouldn't be selling products promising riches. They would be keeping it A SECRET and building wealth quietly.

Robert
#comm #joel
  • Profile picture of the author Ldimilo
    Call me cynical but when I read this I can't help but to ask "what's his angle?" Joel Comm has consistently made money in the MMO world and for someone to say that they shouldn't get into the market that they made a name in has me wondering why.

    Now, I'm not saying that the MMO market is the greatest market in the world, but for a seasoned marketer, entering this arena would be no different than entering the fitness market or the pet market or the forex market....or any market for that matter.

    The 2k price point is ridiculous for the most part in my opinion for 99% of the products out there (minus the direct sales marketing which deals with the psychology behind marketing) but there wouldn't be a price point that high is no one was buying the stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author timmyhay
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Roger,

        Yes, I remember the thread about Kelly's post. I didn't agree with the majority on that one, either. And I don't know Kelly Felix at all. We've never spoken, and I don't think we've even ever exchanged emails.

        The experience you describe having with a previous deal with Joel doesn't sound good, but it's a far cry from "He screwed up" or "I didn't like the way that was handled" to "He's a bad person."
        It's just absolutely laden with veiled attacks on everyone else, contradictions and ultimately hypocrisy.
        Everyone? Didn't you include this in the quoted text?
        I'm not saying it is everywhere. It is rare. But it does exist.
        I see no contradictions. The question of hypocrisy depends on whether Joel believes and tries to live by what he's said. I've gotten to see Joel in environments that only a small handful of people in this industry have, and I've never seen any example of that from him.

        That doesn't mean I agree with him on everything. Far from it. But that's a very different thing from suggesting that he posits an ethical position he doesn't hold himself to.

        Mistakes in judgment? We all make them. When you're more visible, your mistakes are equally higher profile, and you're subject to more criticism. If those mistakes affect more people, they're treated as being equally larger in terms of the original intent, which is a bad way to think. That doesn't make the responsibility to each customer less, of course, but intent does have to play some part in our evaluations of a person's character.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Paul,

          it's a far cry from "He screwed up" or "I didn't like the way that was handled" to "He's a bad person."
          I agree. Any reader of my post will have to form their own opinion about which of those two extremes I am closer to - but in my opinion, I don't think I outright stated 'he's a bad person' - but in relation to 1) the product launch 2) the ensuing 'solution' 3) the three blog posts - I think it's quite clear that I think it's closer to the latter extreme (I used the word 'disgraceful') - but I am only referring to the three things above, not the guy's whole life as I have no knowledge of that.

          Equally, I think it's clear that in my opinion, to describe the three things as just 'he screwed up' and 'I didn't like the way it was handled' is far from how I saw it - and I wonder how anyone could see it as being best described in that way.

          We have no way of ever knowing how the problem occurred or how much the customers or affiliates positions were considered (given value) in the resulting 'solution'. Even if he were to offer an explanation, it would be pointless because if the answer was 'it was an employee's/outsourcer's fault that wasn't noticed' that just opens a whole new can of worms.

          The problem is that the action of releasing the duplicate/plaguarised content and then not immediately reversing this action, along with some sort of measures to absolutely ensure that the (refunded) buyers didn't still use the content, resulted in a situation where the damage was simply irreversible and the only adequate solution would be to try and compensate those affected - but even then, it's clear that to do so would be prohibitively expensive to those concerned - to the point of being almost ridiculous - it probably would have bankrupted him, so in all sensibility I can see why that didn't happen.

          BUT - that means that someone ends up getting shafted and that ended up being 'the little guy' - the customer and the affiliates. And what was offered as 'compensation' was utterly derisory and insulting. There's being shafted and there's being shafted while also being shown the finger.

          As far as I am aware, no one was refunded - I had my request turned down by the other party.

          As I pointed out previously, this had been rationalised, swallowed and put to bed. But to then see the person responsible picking the scab off those old wounds - that incites nothing else than a vociferous response. As pointed out - those wounds are underneath other wounds resulting (partly) from the first one.

          Everyone? Didn't you include this in the quoted text? Quote:
          I'm not saying it is everywhere. It is rare. But it does exist.
          I see no contradictions.
          One of the contradictions is immediately prior to what is quoted above (bolded) -

          This attitude can be found in spots throughout the Internet marketing space. I'm not saying it is everywhere. It is rare. But it does exist.
          It's 'throughout', but it's 'rare'?

          Here's where my 'veiled attacks on everyone' comment came from -

          That's the REAL law of attraction... not that mumbo-jumbo "the universe is your genie" crap

          [snip]

          I get emails all the time asking me to promote other people's products because, and I kid you not, "I have a big list." Gee, that's a way to win someone over...

          [snip]

          That doesn't mean that you can't make a lot of money with a worthless product, though. I've seen it happen time and again.

          [snip]

          Well, there actually is a series of problems that I have observed over the years. I'm not going to name any names because that's not the purpose of this post. The point is to make you aware of what is broken in the industry. It's then up to you to find out who the people are that have made it this way.

          [snip]

          Back-scratching. I understand the "if you promote this for me I'll promote that for you" mentality. I have encountered it all too often.

          [snip]

          In the earlier days of Internet marketing, many of the products were fresh and original. Entrepreneurs were coming up with great solutions and many of them worked quite well.

          Things have changed. With so many people in the "make money online" space, many are creating products just to enter the niche. As I've written before, a number of them have no credibility and some of them outright copy others to make a buck.

          [snip]

          some people are willing to completely devalue their own products in order to make more sales of someone else's product.

          [snip]

          I believe this is going to serve to weed out more of the scam artists
          I haven't included some of the other examples already quoted previously - but these are all from the one article out of the three. Admittedly, my use of 'everyone' is an exaggeration/not technically accurate - it would have been more accurate if I had said 'many people'.

          But just the examples given in the previous quote include - LOA marketers, wannabe newbie JVers, worthless product sellers, people responsible for 'breaking the industry', back-scratchers, creators of products that aren't fresh or original, products created 'just to enter the niche', sellers without credibility, outright copiers, those who devalue their own products, scam artists....there's an underlying edge/tone that invokes my use of the word 'hypocrisy'.

          If someone is going to go into such descriptive detail and point out so many different problems that have 'broken the industry' in order to tell us 'what's wrong with internet marketing' then greenhouses and stones spring to mind.

          The question of hypocrisy depends on whether Joel believes and tries to live by what he's said.
          True - but I only know so much about him - the things that occurred when he came to my attention and the three connected articles - I've avoided him the rest of the time.

          I respect your opinion - you know that. I get no pleasure from riling you by attacking your friends in public.

          But I hope that you can see that it's more a case of 'couldn't possibly bite my lip on this one, any more, at this point' (although I did at first in this thread and have been for a few years) than 'couldn't have tried harder to find a way to get at the guy'.

          From article 3 -

          The point is to make you aware of what is broken in the industry. It's then up to you to find out who the people are that have made it this way.
          Red rag to a bull, is it not?

          Continuing with your points, Paul -

          But that's a very different thing from suggesting that he posits an ethical position he doesn't hold himself to.
          I'm not saying he does this all of the time - far from it. Just that on this occasion he surely has? (See the parts that I bolded in my second post in this thread.)

          When you're more visible, your mistakes are equally higher profile, and you're subject to more criticism.
          As I pointed out above, there was barely any criticism at all, at the time. I have virtually stood alone on this one and continue to.

          See the thanks that my second post got - most people are understandably terrified to call out the 'big boys' or to be seen to stand alongside someone who does.

          This isn't exclusive to IM, but in my opinion it IS relative to most of the biggest problems in the world. I can't get political here, but you know what I'm saying?

          I don't spend every post here indulging in negativity or character asassination. In fact I positively avoid the occasions (nowadays) when this type of situation presents itself. But someone living in a greenhouse just bounced a rock off the back of my head.

          If those mistakes affect more people, they're treated as being equally larger in terms of the original intent, which is a bad way to think.
          I don't understand why it's a bad way to think. Should Bernie Madoff get the same sentence for stealing X amount off a few million people as someone else gets for stealing the same X amount off of one person?

          intent does have to play some part in our evaluations of a person's character
          As I pointed out earlier in this post, it's impossible to establish intent here. So all I have to go on are the resulting actions of the two parties involved to repair the damage (which was laid to rest some time ago), and the scab-picking and stone throwing words of the guy living in the greenhouse (which has brought the dead issue back to life.) I didn't create this thread. I noticed it and watched the responses and after a variety of opinions, felt that I had something of value to add (as I'm sure that you did too Paul.)

          As I mentioned previously, this isn't the first time recently that someone classed as a 'guru' (or 'expert' if you prefer) who openly resides within IM's higher echelons and works that system (for high profit), has decided to apparently turn on the bad guys within those echelons (without naming names) and the lower echelons (and everyone in between) and proclaim themselves to be some kind of saviour -

          However, it's time someone came forward to draw a line in the sand. Since I don't see my peers doing it, I am willing to take the risk. It's too important to ignore.
          Would it really be a better thing for the industry as a whole if people like me kept schtum? He's pointed out that he's willing to take the risk. I've demonstrated that I am.

          If these highly successful IMers really want to clean up the industry and really want to protect the newcomers - I'm all for it. But if their actions are ultimately likely to cause even more cynicism within the industry (these people have serious reach - just look at the masses of fawning replies in the comments on their blogs) who is better - the little guy who keeps schtum in the hope of a JV with a big guy? Or the little guy who actually cares and sacrifices everything and puts himself under permanent scrutiny and (perceived, not proven or given) threat of revenge to try and actually make a difference?
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          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Roger,

            I'm not questioning your stated facts. You have never given me even a hint of a reason to doubt your truthfulness. Nor am I going to question how you feel as a result of those experiences. That's not something that's ever up for debate, with anyone. And if you were refused a refund within the offered time frame, THAT is a significant issue.

            I will suggest that you may be applying a little confirmation bias to the situation. But then, we all do, to some extent. Specifically, in your interpretation of the quoted text:
            This attitude can be found in spots throughout the Internet marketing space. I'm not saying it is everywhere. It is rare. But it does exist.
            ... to which you comment...
            It's 'throughout', but it's 'rare'?
            There is no contradiction in Joel's statement. I could say that there's crime equally throughout a given city, but that crime in that city overall is rare. Most people would, I think, interpret that to mean that it's uncommon, and as likely to happen in one area as any other. In short, rare, but evenly dispersed.

            I believe that example shows the confirmation bias at work.
            I get no pleasure from riling you by attacking your friends in public.
            Good heavens, Roger. You're not riling me. That would take a great deal more than an opinion that's based on real experience and facts.

            I think some of the comments made by any number of people in this thread, as in many others, are based on insufficient information and experience. They're overly broad and personal. I jumped in mostly to provide some additional context.

            I had extensive, almost daily, contact with Joel for probably 5 or 6 years, and I can tell you this much: He is a good guy, with high standards of behavior and a real desire to help people. That's not based on hearing what he says. It's based on watching what he did, consistently, for a long period of time.
            See the thanks that my second post got - most people are understandably terrified to call out the 'big boys' or to be seen to stand alongside someone who does.
            I think it's safe to say I'm not terrified by any of them. I think anyone who is has real problems. Both psychologically and in terms of their business model.

            And yes, I know what you're saying. In general, I agree with you on that point.
            I don't understand why it's a bad way to think. Should Bernie Madoff get the same sentence for stealing X amount off a few million people as someone else gets for stealing the same X amount off of one person?
            Madoff set out with the intention to steal. Thus, his character is in question. I see that as being very different, in those terms, from making a bad judgment call. Note that I don't argue the responsibility either person has for fixing things, but the assessment of character will be different for the two situations.
            If these highly successful IMers really want to clean up the industry and really want to protect the newcomers - I'm all for it. But if their actions are ultimately likely to cause even more cynicism within the industry (these people have serious reach
            Do they? Really?

            Reach, maybe, in the near term. They can make a big splash. Impact over time? Nope. Not most of them. Most of them have no impact whatsoever over the long haul. In fact, it is very safe to say that, over the long term, you will have more effect on the thinking of people in this market than most of the people who've had million dollar days.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Paul,

              Ack. Coincidental that I was teaching my son just the other day that to resolve a sticky,recurring issue he should take the unexpected approach of standing ground discreetly while highlighting areas of agreement along with disarming/blunting weapons via flattery.

              Time for me to find something else to flog, this horse is done.

              Thanks for the reply.
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              Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author jcomm
            Just a quick note to ExRat...

            I'm really sorry that you got hurt by the first AdSense templates launch. I didn't see that coming at all and it was a mess I didn't like having to clean up.

            Yes, I could explain what happened. But you are correct. That's four years ago and there really isn't a point.

            We refunded every customer that asked, as I always have. That launch and the error of the PLR content was truly a nightmare.

            Anyhow, I wanted you to know that I DO care, I am listening, and I continue to learn.

            Joel
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            Joel's Free AdSense book - http://www.AdSense-Secrets.com
            Get a KaChing Button! - http://www.KaChingBook.com
            Twitter Power (2 FREE chapters) - http://www.twitterpower.com/free

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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by jcomm View Post

              Just a quick note to ExRat...

              I'm really sorry that you got hurt by the first AdSense templates launch. I didn't see that coming at all and it was a mess I didn't like having to clean up.

              Yes, I could explain what happened. But you are correct. That's four years ago and there really isn't a point.

              We refunded every customer that asked, as I always have. That launch and the error of the PLR content was truly a nightmare.

              Anyhow, I wanted you to know that I DO care, I am listening, and I continue to learn.

              Joel
              Isnt it your turn to buy dinner?

              Hahahaha
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            • Profile picture of the author CanuckWarrior
              Originally Posted by jcomm View Post

              Just a quick note to ExRat...

              I'm really sorry that you got hurt by the first AdSense templates launch. I didn't see that coming at all and it was a mess I didn't like having to clean up.

              Yes, I could explain what happened. But you are correct. That's four years ago and there really isn't a point.

              We refunded every customer that asked, as I always have. That launch and the error of the PLR content was truly a nightmare.

              Anyhow, I wanted you to know that I DO care, I am listening, and I continue to learn.

              Joel
              Are you referring to that heap of dung VRE templates vol. 1 an 2 where you teamed up with Eric Holmund? If so, I never got a refund, but I still have the CDs that were shipped. They did make expensive coasters though.

              That was an epic stinker worthy of an Academy Guru BSdom Award (if there was such a thing) and to hear you actually cared sounds kind of ... hmmm ... searching for the right word(s) ... from a different dimension.

              And you don't try to sell anything?

              Then you might want to call the FBI and see who hacked your email account and sent out emails at least one per day, EVERY day promoting anything and everything.

              I'm speechless ... almost. No wonder Sheldon says he would rather get his information on what's wrong with Internet Marketing from someone like Salty Droid.
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              Internet marketing is not rocket science ... unsubscribe from every guru spam list you're currently on ... they just want to rape your wallet and make you co-dependent.

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              • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Browne
                Haha yes keep the secrets to yourself. Instead, make millions selling incredibly valuable software such a ifart.


                hahahahah.

                I met joel comm once and gave him a gift because I was selling a cool little product and he asked me if it was cocaine.

                I was like "nah it's not cocaine" and he told me "Damn, I was hoping it was cocaine I need some cocaine to do what I do" hahahaha

                Then he gave me his crazy ass holographic business card (which was pretty cool).
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                Longer Sex - A site about how to last longer in bed.

                My marketing/personal blog

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  • Profile picture of the author Yin Ryu
    "There is no get rich quick method! If there were, people wouldn't be selling products promising riches. They would be keeping it A SECRET and building wealth quietly.
    True.

    Intermediate internet users know that it's hard to earn money and it's not easy to be rich quick. But then again some so-called gurus claim to be rich for selling simple how-to stuff which is not even worth 27$ & available for free on many forums/blogs/podcasts. Nothing wrong with marketers on that, it's just how newbies want to get fooled in obvious stuff with pipe-dream.
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  • Profile picture of the author indexphp
    ...says the guy selling a Twitter eBook
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  • Profile picture of the author Marc Rodill
    Maybe guru's are just really cool dudes...

    1.2MM unemployed in the states...

    Trying to close the income gap in the world...

    ...starting with theirs :-)

    P.S. Joel's pretty much wrong.

    There's plenty of ways to get-rich-quicker-than-most-people-ever-will.
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    Long Lost Warriors! The Secret Sales System! Act Now! Buy Now! Right Now!
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  • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post


    "WHY are the gurus revealing and willing to sell their systems and secrets
    that are supposedly earning them truckloads of money?
    Additional revenue stream...

    Change of interest or direction in business...

    Passive income...

    Play money...

    Generally speaking, the market is large enough that the "competition" that actually applies the taught methods is never really "competition" anyway.

    On top of that, guru's generally don't have a scarcity mindset... they all work together to promote each others products and services. They understand that there is no such thing as "my customer" and thus, "competition" becomes far less relavent.

    People continue to buy from multiple sources in almost every industry known to man.

    And if they're already earning thousands & thousands of dollars why do
    they stick it to the average marketer with their "$1,997" price tags if they're
    already earning $50,000 or $100,000 per month?"
    Because they're business people and they don't value their future work by basing the pricing on their previous earnings.

    It's a business decision to sell a course, if they wanted to do charity work they'd volunteer at the local soup kitchen.


    Joel Comm says:

    "There is no get rich quick method! If there were, people wouldn't be selling products promising riches. They would be keeping it A SECRET and building wealth quietly.

    Anyway, check out his blog here:
    http://joelcomm.com/whats-wrong-internet-marketing.html.html

    Let's hear your thoughts on Joel Comm's comments. I agree with him 100%!

    Thanks,

    Robert
    I disagree with the anti-get rich quick theorists. There are PLENTY of ways to "get rich quick" (depending on your definition of quick).... All of them require hard work, and proper management of your money (two things most people severely lack).

    There are almost zero ways to "get rich doing nothing in a short period of time", aside from the lottery - which happens to be what most people are looking for.

    Almost anyone with the sheer drive and determination (and smarts) that is willing to work really hard on the right things, and not let anything stand in their way, can build a fortune incredibly fast (in comparison to how wealth has been built throughout history).

    The problem is that no one wants to put forth the effort, belief and time to make it happen. Most people would rather call it quits and run around screaming "SCAM!" because they don't succeed the first time they try something.


    /soapbox
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess


    More than likely that post was created to help presell the new book... (nothing wrong with that)
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    • Profile picture of the author Charles Harper
      Right on Mark. I think you are right. I don't think that the essay is genuine concern.

      And frankly it worked because I wouldn't have known about the book otherwise. Although, I would have to think that an intermediate will not see the need for this book.

      Charles


      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      More than likely that post was created to help presell the book... (nothing wrong with that)
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    • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post


      More than likely that post was created to help presell the new book... (nothing wrong with that)
      I think it probably was. I had the chance to chat with Joel Comm for a bit and he seems a really cool guy. Here's what I recorded... (hope you don't mind me posting) ...

      Joel Comm - KaChing
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      • Profile picture of the author jcomm
        Originally Posted by freelance4money View Post

        I think it probably was. I had the chance to chat with Joel Comm for a bit and he seems a really cool guy.
        Thanks...

        But for the record, I don't see how my post would sell more copies of my book! After all, I TEACH people how to do business online. I don't think I mention my book anywhere in the post.

        I wrote it because I believe it.

        You haven't seen my inbox.

        Promote this for me, promote that for me, we've got a killer contest, we're gonna make so much money... blah blah blah... It's just gotten out of hand.

        You think my rants are something new?

        Here's my rant on Multi level marketing dated 9/11/2007

        Why I Don't Like Multi-Level Marketing

        I've made my opinions about that vacuous mush "The Secret" made known many times. Here's one entry from Dec 2009.

        The Secret to Getting Rich

        I ragged on long-form sales copy in January 2010

        The Long Form Sales Letter

        And I came down on the back-scratching, bonus wars in February...

        The Dark Side of Internet Marketing

        If I am going to do something gimmicky to sell more books, it's not going to be to rile people up.

        There is no product launch around the corner.

        There is no master plan other than to keep innovating and doing good stuff.

        Joel
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        • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
          Originally Posted by jcomm View Post

          Thanks...
          <snip>
          There is no master plan other than to keep innovating and doing (emphasis added) good stuff.

          Joel
          In the line above, which I snipped from Joel's much longer reply, he tells us all the real "secret" of successful marketing, or for that matter, any business.

          The "doing" part is particularly important.

          Elmer
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  • Profile picture of the author John Pawlett
    Pot Kettle seems to spring to mind here!

    There is one 'secret' that most newbie's don't know, the 'guru's' are not Internet Marketers they are good old fashioned direct response experts.

    They write great copy and sell the crap that the market (thinks it) want's.

    Joe Karbo would have been proud.

    Kind regards

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author jonat2005
    From my point of view, i think everything is centred upon giving out quality information and earning cash from it. For example, somebody may be using a technique to earn money from google adsense (which pays by month ends), but the beauty of internet marketing is that you can sell and get instant cash instead of you to wait for the end of the month
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  • Profile picture of the author TonyRush
    Joel's argument is based on an illogical assumption.

    He's asking, "If someone was using a method that made them $100,000 per month....why would they sell it in a course for $2,000?"

    The break in logic is that Joel assumes that selling the information necessarily lessens the "workability" of what's being taught.

    In other words, no one would jeopardize their $100k/month income if selling the secret meant it wouldn't work anymore.

    But information marketers aren't stupid. They know that:

    a.) Only a fraction of people will actually buy a $1997 course in the first place
    b.) I suspect that - of those who DO buy it - less than 10% of them will actually pull the trigger and DO what's being taught in any consistent or complete way.

    As for the value of a course....I don't know about you guys but one IDEA can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in my business. So, yeah, if I spend $1,997 on something and just get ONE good idea out of it that makes me at LEAST $1,998.....that course is profitable for me.

    There's never been any shortage of people who sit around and whine about the courses "not being worth it". I find that -- in some cases -- they're really just venting their frustration that they can't afford to buy it themselves.

    Tony
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by TonyRush View Post

      Joel's argument is based on an illogical assumption.

      He's asking, "If someone was using a method that made them $100,000 per month....why would they sell it in a course for $2,000?"

      The break in logic is that Joel assumes that selling the information necessarily lessens the "workability" of what's being taught.

      In other words, no one would jeopardize their $100k/month income if selling the secret meant it wouldn't work anymore.

      But information marketers aren't stupid. They know that:

      a.) Only a fraction of people will actually buy a $1997 course in the first place
      b.) I suspect that - of those who DO buy it - less than 10% of them will actually pull the trigger and DO what's being taught in any consistent or complete way.

      As for the value of a course....I don't know about you guys but one IDEA can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in my business. So, yeah, if I spend $1,997 on something and just get ONE good idea out of it that makes me at LEAST $1,998.....that course is profitable for me.

      There's never been any shortage of people who sit around and whine about the courses "not being worth it". I find that -- in some cases -- they're really just venting their frustration that they can't afford to buy it themselves.

      Tony
      Maybe it's just my point of view and experience....and, I certainly wont discourage someone from purchasing a $2,000+ product, however, with one single FREE eBook, I launched a product that earned close to $5,000 it's first two days...

      There is ALOT of free information to be had for at least new internet marketers....At this point in my IM career, I just haven't seen the need for a $2,000/product....
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      • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Maybe it's just my point of view and experience....and, I certainly wont discourage someone from purchasing a $2,000+ product, however, with one single FREE eBook, I launched a product that earned close to $5,000 it's first two days...

        There is ALOT of free information to be had for at least new internet marketers....At this point in my IM career, I just haven't seen the need for a $2,000/product....

        Just because I'm curious, but would you care to share what ebook that is?

        You can PM if you don't want to post it here.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi,

        Let's hear your thoughts on Joel Comm's comments.
        It's the typical, short-memoried hypocrisy some of us have grown well accustomed to.

        (from the blog post linked in the OP) -

        However, it's time someone came forward to draw a line in the sand. Since I don't see my peers doing it, I am willing to take the risk. It's too important to ignore.
        Some have been drawing those lines forever and a day mate...even way back in 2006...and staying on the right side of them, while watching others ignore them completely (while the line-drawers get abuse from the clique for having the audacity to draw them - because they weren't seen as 'peers' and therefore weren't 'qualified' to be drawing lines, apparently.)

        Create something new instead of camping out in the same territory where you have been your entire career. People need real solutions, not another course on making money online from someone who has only made money online selling courses on how to make money online.
        What, you mean like Adsense Templates, sold by someone who had only made money online selling courses on how to make money online? (Adsense Secrets).



        Some of us have long memories - when we got burnt, the experience got burnt in our memories.

        That blog post linked to and the email quoted in it don't tell the full story and if I remember correctly, there were comments on the blog post but it was decided to remove and close them, because they filled in the gaps in the story.

        I learnt a hell of a lot about 'internet marketing' from that experience which has stayed with me - like when there's a problem involving two vendors and a whole bunch of customers (500+ on both sides) and affiliates, the vendors will collude and line each others pockets in order to 'find a solution' at the expense of the customer - and the unfortunate affiliates.

        Joel Comm On "What's Wrong w/ Internet Marketing"...
        Normally, some of us have enough integrity and dignity to move on and let bygones be bygones, but occasionally, someone demonstrates such outright hypocrisy that it only feels right to put that aside temporarily and let rip.

        Sorry about that, but if you're going to bring things up like 'what's wrong with internet marketing' then someone might point out that it might just have something to do with vendors treating customers and affiliates like they're complete idiots.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author nemock
    I wonder what launch Joel is working on. Maybe it's the anti-guru information product? Wasn't he teaching people how to make AdSense money with machine generated SEO spam?

    Why do people sell information products about anything? Because they sell isn't an obvious enough answer?

    Ha
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    • Profile picture of the author jcomm
      Originally Posted by nemock View Post

      I wonder what launch Joel is working on. Maybe it's the anti-guru information product? Wasn't he teaching people how to make AdSense money with machine generated SEO spam?
      No. I NEVER have taught AdSense in that way. If you read my material, you will find that I always tell people to create ORIGINAL content sites that people will actually want to read. I also tell people they will have to WORK to build their online business.

      I have tried and tested many different ways to monetize content. I've even tested the machine-generated stuff to see if it really works. As suspected, it is a waste of time and money. It makes much more sense to build real content.

      I'm not working in any information product. I've been speaking out on the nonsense in this industry for some time.

      Joel
      Signature

      Joel's Free AdSense book - http://www.AdSense-Secrets.com
      Get a KaChing Button! - http://www.KaChingBook.com
      Twitter Power (2 FREE chapters) - http://www.twitterpower.com/free

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    • Profile picture of the author jclz3d
      Originally Posted by nemock View Post

      I wonder what launch Joel is working on. Maybe it's the anti-guru information product? Wasn't he teaching people how to make AdSense money with machine generated SEO spam?

      Why do people sell information products about anything? Because they sell isn't an obvious enough answer?

      Ha
      Whats wrong with promoting adsense sites with 'machine generated spam' if it makes you $XXX a day?
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
    Most of them became rich because you bought their product that claimed to make them rich..Simple as that..Are there exceptions...Maybe..But it's not the rule.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    And if they're already earning thousands & thousands of dollars why do
    they stick it to the average marketer with their "$1,997" price tags...
    I can think of a million reasons...


    $2,000 x 500 sales = One million dollars.
    Signature

    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I can think of a million reasons...


      $2,000 x 500 sales = One million dollars.
      Yes, and that's why Frank Kern made about 24 million dollars in 24 hours.

      Guys listen up, Joel Comm is a marketer himself and he is just trying to hit another bestseller and so he is trying to generate buzz by being controversial. That's about it
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Guys listen up, Joel Comm is a marketer himself and he is just trying to hit another bestseller and so he is trying to generate buzz by being controversial. That's about it
        That may be part of it, but it would surprise me somewhat. I think he meant exactly what he said.

        I am consistently surprised at the number of people who assume that everyone in the world will say anything at all to make a buck. In response, I'm going to remind you of something I observed a long time ago:

        When a person expresses an opinion, they're telling you nothing at all about the object of the opinion, and a great deal about themselves.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author BarryOnline
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I can think of a million reasons...


      $2,000 x 500 sales = One million dollars.
      Thats the answer... Simple as it sounds.
      Signature

      We are the universe contemplating itself - Carl Sagan

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    • Profile picture of the author wilsonusman
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I can think of a million reasons...


      $2,000 x 500 sales = One million dollars.
      There you go nough' said!!
      Signature
      Entrepreneurship & Blogging || About Wilson || Contact Wilson

      Blog: Fun Lifestyle :: Subscribe To RSS :: About Wilson
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      • Profile picture of the author jlucado
        I am simply stunned by everything I have read here in this thread.

        If a newbie ever wanted information about getting started in this business, general facts about Internet Marketing and its history or the insights of those who love and hate each other at the same time .......this is required reading!

        I love this forum. Powerful knowledge abounds.

        Thanks Ex-Rat (Roger)
        Thanks Paul
        Thanks Joel
        Thanks et al

        My best to you,
        Jerry
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Barboza
    If they sell their secrets they will get a new stream of income. They become business coaches and, that is a big business. Their "competitors" can become their jv partners so more moeny making opportunities can arise.

    All respectfully, Joel Comm is not the right guy to tell us this
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    If you want to know something... and someone can teach you that thing for a price you buy it... most of the more successful ceo's write books toward the end of their career because they genuinely want to share their knowledge... and they are smart enough to make money sharing it with people who its really worth something to, in hope that they will run with it and succeed for themselves as well.

    I may build homes, or I may be retired from building homes.... but even if I am still doing it 8 hours per day in the hot sun... I will still be happy to sell others a book on how I do it, if they show that they want that. Then they can have the same knowledge I do... and instead of making only $200 that day I make $400 because my book is also selling...

    I dont think the question of "Why do people sell their knowledge if they are so successful..." is legit. Its a question that is asked by simple minds... its a given, the answer is obvious.

    The real question is this: If people want to buy your knowledge why the hell arent you selling it?

    Thats what a real business person would ask.

    Not saying you arent, that all above is my personal thinking on the subject.

    The obvious answer is this "Because I dont want to create competition"... when there are a billion people on earth your little 10,000 copies isnt gonna hurt the market... furthermore, no matter how many ebooks you buy, the 80 20 rule still applies

    1: 80% of the people you show your book to wont buy it
    2: Only twenty percent of the ones who do will try it... because most are too afraid to "try" even if your advice is golden.
    3: 80% of those who try will fall off within a month, because success is a personal endeavor, and most people as well as they intend do not have a grip on their personal power enough to see something through.

    In the end... less than one percent of the people who buy your program will get rich from it, and the others will just be "enriched" by the knowledge.

    In the VERY VERY end... of the less than one percent who succeed... only one in a million has the balls to do it as well as you did.

    Because success takes determination that you cant buy in a book, even though you may be enlightened by the truth of how you succeed... success is only 5% "how" and 95% bein a mover and shaker... stickin and movin while everyone else is shuckin and jivin!

    Lastly, "competition" doesnt even register to a man who wants to accomplish something so bad that he actually has a chance to succeed, he's ready to beat his competition to the punch... he isnt thinking "how can a dodge the battering of rejection... he's thinking "How can I knock this guy the hell out and take his spot"?

    Mostly its about getting your offer in front of ten people , even in a SHODDY fashion if neccessary... while your competition is still making grand plans to call on his first prospect.

    Thats what most people do... they waste months on end making "grand perfect plans"... while some shoddy little guy who is taking action in the "ready or not here I come fashion"... passes them up and says "Hey your plans are looking nice... I hope I have a plan that pretty someday..."

    By the time the "grand plan guy" makes his first presentation... the shoddy guy has made $60k

    Anyone "can" succeed, but its a fact that not everyone is "willing" to. If you can get past the "will" part, it's passionate, exciting and exhilarating to give your dreams everything you have!






    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    Hi Warriors,
    I just read Joel Comm's blog and his opinion on what's wrong w/ Internet
    marketing and it's a must read for the average marketer and especially
    the so-called "gurus" out there that are pushing their products & services.

    He touches on what I've said a million times before and that is...

    "WHY are the gurus revealing and willing to sell their systems and secrets
    that are supposedly earning them truckloads of money?

    And if they're already earning thousands & thousands of dollars why do
    they stick it to the average marketer with their "$1,997" price tags if they're
    already earning $50,000 or $100,000 per month?"

    It's like Apple or Google saying that even though they earn BILLIONS of
    dollars (per quarter) they're willing to sell their systems/secrets for
    $19,997?

    Joel Comm says:

    "There is no get rich quick method! If there were, people wouldn't be selling products promising riches. They would be keeping it A SECRET and building wealth quietly.


    Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author summerm
    but there are plenty of books about how Apple or Google made it big, what kind of factors came into play in their success-- and people buy them up hoping to hit it to that level, too. books for less than $50.

    they simply don't have secret systems to success. so it's not like they are hiding their secrets, holding back on selling them for fear that others will rise up and beat them...
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      In 'The Work Matters', Tom Peters' take on giving people your best is that you should always strive to improve so, even if you sell/give away all your present knowledge, tomorrow you will learn something new.


      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Having an abundance of information really is overrated.

          The majority of people on the Warrior Forum who aren't already making a good full time income simply need to take action on the information they already have.

          It's tempting to think that there's some vital nugget of information that will propel you to success but really it's just about doing the basics day after day.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Sorry about the long rant guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    His post was obviously written to stir...link bait I believe it's called. So the internet marketers tell me, anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Washer
    For me, the ethical questions related to money have nothing to do with pricing.
    That pricing argument is just silly and betrays a fundamental ignorance of economics.

    Not that anyone should be interested, but here are my criteria with regard to money:

    1. "How much is enough?"
    2. "How much until all I care about is the money?"

    I've seen #2 happen and it's fairly disgusting. People who've crossed that line no longer see others as anything but a means to an end.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    I wouldn't disagree with what he's saying, but there are obviously people, including him, making a lot of money in the "make money" niche, so it kind of weakens his argument.

    IM stuff is like porn-- you want new people (with new techniques) all the time. Keeping things the way they are is good for the people on top now.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Roger,
      What, you mean like Adsense Templates, sold by someone who had only made money online selling courses on how to make money online? (Adsense Secrets).
      Umm... Wrong assumption. Joel was making good money online long before he ever got into that. And he made quite a bit through AdSense on sites that had nothing to do with IM.

      I believe his first big business deal online was selling a games site he'd created to Yahoo.

      I haven't yet read the post, so I won't comment on the rest. That statement, though, is inaccurate. What you see of people in this market is rarely even a large percentage of what and who they are.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Okay. Having just read it, I will say this: A lot of people are commenting on it without paying attention to what he said and the context of the post.

        I largely agree with what he posted, and that's unusual. Joel and I are friends, but we tend to look at the world from very different angles.

        The main point of disagreement comes with this statement:
        If there were, people wouldn't be selling products promising riches. They would be keeping it a secret and building wealth quietly.
        The flaw in that argument is pointed out several times upthread.


        Paul
        Signature
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Here's what's wrong: too many people selling overpriced, overhyped, underperforming crap to unsuspecting victims.
    Signature
    Read this SURPRISING REPORT Before You Buy ANY WSO! Click Here
    FREE REPORT: Split Test Your Landing Pages the Easy Way
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    • Profile picture of the author webfighter
      Here is what I would ask of my peers...


      1) Create original products and services that go above and beyond what is promised. Create something new instead of camping out in the same territory where you have been your entire career. People need real solutions, not another course on making money online from someone who has only made money online selling courses on how to make money online.


      2) Price your products more in line with the state of our economy. People are hurting right now. Give them a break.


      3) Stop encouraging and/or allowing bonuses from affiliates. Let your product stand on its own strength. It's one thing to give away free bonuses with an ebook or piece of software. It's another to set affiliates against one another in a race for commissions. It devalues everyone's products.
      1) With the $1997 products in reference, I highly doubt that those guys aren't delivering what they promise. I really like the new concept of launching products. They put out some good pre-launch content and that really helps in deciding if the system is for you. Joel asks other marketers to make it clear that their product requires "some sort of work". Now have a look at Make money with Google AdSense with Joel Comm's free book.

      2) The question of "how much a product be priced" has been cropped up a number of times here at WF. And from what I can see, the conclusion is that it depends directly on the level of expertise of the author (or creator) of the product and how deep he/she is willing to teach.

      It must have been really disheartening to see something you bought for $97 being given away for free a year later.

      3) Unless Joel is clearly dismissing the "affiliate marketing" concept, I can't agree with this one either. The way it works, bonuses are given to encourage people buy through an affiliate's link. The end customer doesn't buy a product just because it has a bonus attached to it. The bonus simply lets the affiliate get rewarded for his/her efforts. So, " Let your product stand on its own strength" is out of context.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Originally Posted by Rhys Davies View Post

    Yes, but it looks like it backfired a little.

    He's a smart guy, I like him... but his blog post was a bit icky
    Yeah, and I'm sure the blog comments are all personally selected. Note that 100% agree with him...unlike here.

    And I wonder if, by "quality products", he includes his Iphone "Fart App"?

    LOL - funny stuff... Sometimes you just gotta roll your eyes. Nothing against Joel personally. But sometimes I wonder what the real motivation behind these types of posts are. What Paul says aside...sometimes things are not always what they appear.

    Don't read too deeply into that. It's simply an observation / my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
    Hi Paul,

    Umm... Wrong assumption. Joel was making good money online long before he ever got into that. And he made quite a bit through AdSense on sites that had nothing to do with IM.

    I believe his first big business deal online was selling a games site he'd created to Yahoo.

    I haven't yet read the post, so I won't comment on the rest. That statement, though, is inaccurate. What you see of people in this market is rarely even a large percentage of what and who they are.
    Fair cop Paul. That part of my post is way off the mark.

    Okay. Having just read it, I will say this: A lot of people are commenting on it without paying attention to what he said and the context of the post.
    I'm interested to hear your view on the misinterpretation of the context?

    I am re-reading it and trying to make sure that I pay attention to what he is saying and the context, but I have to take note that in the article he says -

    I have covered this topic before on my blog in a category titled "The Dark Side of Internet Marketing". You can consider this an addendum to my earlier writings.
    ...and then when I read that article, I have to take note that in it he says -

    This is #2 in a series called The Truth About Internet Marketing. Part one was called "The Long Form Sales Letter.
    Therefore in order to fully appreciate the context, I have to take into account that this is a series of three posts, all connected together.

    But honestly, as I go through these articles, I only have to read a few paragraphs before I get a slightly queasy feeling because they are laden with hypocrisy, arrogance and snipes at unidentified 'do-badder's - which to be honest, I find very common when someone with a slightly ominous record in IM and connections with the inner circle suddenly turns 'whistle-blower' on the practices of unspecified others in the industry (remember the Kelly Felix 'Bring The Fresh' blog post and forum post?) and decides to start telling us how most people make false assumptions about stuff (like inner circles) and what's wrong and what needs fixing because -
    it's time someone came forward to draw a line in the sand. Since I don't see my peers doing it, I am willing to take the risk. It's too important to ignore.
    Here is what I am talking about (items in italics added by me) -

    From article 2 -

    I have always attempted to create products that bring value and will always continue to do so.

    [snip]

    I believe it is morally wrong to sell products that don't bring real value.

    [snip]

    The point is to make you aware of what is broken in the industry. It's then up to you to find out who the people are that have made it this way. Hopefully, you'll also be able to discern who the good guys are.

    (bolded by me for emphasis)

    [snip]

    In the earlier days of Internet marketing, many of the products were fresh and original. Entrepreneurs were coming up with great solutions and many of them worked quite well.

    Things have changed. With so many people in the "make money online" space, many are creating products just to enter the niche. As I've written before, a number of them have no credibility and some of them outright copy others to make a buck.

    (bolded by me for emphasis)

    [snip]

    I turn away from promoting MANY offers that I don't believe bring real value.

    That's not the case with everyone.

    I've seen some Internet marketers promote everything and anything that comes their way, all in the name of reciprocation.

    I can't do it and I won't do it just to do it. I will only reciprocally promote an offer if I believe it is worthy to promote.

    2) Unhealthy attitudes towards customers

    This one may make you angry and it probably should.

    (bolded by me for emphasis)

    [snip]

    My associate and I were stunned when the promoter told us that the attendees to his event were always looking for the next big thing and that it was like he was selling crack to them... providing their next fix. He made it clear that he didn't expect them ever to make any money and he was fine with that.

    I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I lost a lot of respect for this person that day.

    This attitude can be found in spots throughout the Internet marketing space. I'm not saying it is everywhere. It is rare. But it does exist.

    [snip]

    I've offered prizes to affiliates in the past. It provides them with incentive to promote my product.

    But I draw the line at affiliate bonus offers.

    (then a few sentences down)

    I think I did this for another marketer's promotion one time, several years ago. I gave away a free copy of one of my ebooks for customers who purchased through my link.

    [snip]

    (then he sums up with -)

    I believe this is going to serve to weed out more of the scam artists and provide opportunity for those willing and eager to do business the right way.
    It's just absolutely laden with veiled attacks on everyone else, contradictions and ultimately hypocrisy.

    In order for the other readers of my post in this thread, I need to add a brief outline of what happened in 2006 in order to fill in the gaps so that my posts can be put into context.

    Privatelabelmonthly.com had about 750 subscribers, (unless I'm mistaken), all getting original PLR articles and other related items provided to support the use of the articles to build sites/products/marketing systems in order to make a profit on the investment.

    They also had affiliates who were allowed to promote these products to their customers.

    I was in both of these categories.

    Again (unless I'm mistaken) Joel had already built a group of customers with his adsense templates 1, and decided to launch version 2 via this list, his own other lists, and the lists of JV partners.

    This product comprised of (allegedly) original articles, along with graphics and templates to use with the articles in order to make money on their investment via adsense.

    After his launch to either 1000 or 2000 customers (can't remember), it was noted by someone that the articles in Joel's product appeared to have been lifted directly (word for word) from privatelabelmonthly.com - comprising of X amount of month's worth of articles which the PLM customers had obviously already begun building sites/products from.

    The owners of PLM wrote emails to their customers and publicly stated this to be the case - they were absolutely incensed and therefore so were the customers of PLM because our work (whether as a site builder OR an affiliate) had been undermined totally by an extra 1000 (or 2000?) getting hold of and using the exact same duplicate articles.

    The value of what we had bought was diluted massively.

    After a short time, the owners of PLM appeared to suddenly calm down, tried to retract their initial ire and stopped threatening legal action and released the email which is printed in Neil's blog here.

    Important part here -

    This evening I spent a couple of hours on the phone with Joel Comm. I did my best to rectify the situation and to ensure that membership interests are maintained. It took some time but we managed to comeƂ to an agreement. To our paid members, you should have receieved our email regarding this.
    What they did was to give the paying customers of PLM Joel's product by way of reparation. In other words, regardless of the fact that what we had purchased, worked upon and promoted to our lists was now totally devalued (because the duplicate content factor meant that it was likely that Google's attention would be drawn to the massive amount of new people using the exact same articles OR slightly changed versions), the PLM owners decided that we should be happy to receive what amounted to a bunch of new headers on the same topic as the PLR.

    Of course, I explained to the owners of PLM exactly how I felt about this, the damage it had done to my reputation as a list builder and affiliate (because I had unwittingly encouraged my subscribers to sign up for something, for my profit, that turned out to be suddenly devalued) and how it had devalued the work I had put into rewriting, buying domains and building sites.

    I outright accused them of being 'paid off', which they didn't deny, but then skirted around to emphasize the difficult position they had been put in (legal action was too expensive to make it worthwhile) and therefore, once they found themselves in a corner they did what was 'best for everyone' - which, translated into logical talk meant 'getting a bung' and trying to palm the customers and affiliates off with a bunch of cheap header graphics.

    The whole thing was disgraceful, and in part contributed to my decision to stop being an 'internet marketer' (after a few months of being so) scrap my lists and go underground to study and practice mass-site building, SEO, affiliate marketing for large networks etc. I didn't want to be bracketed in the same group as those people and (at the time) couldn't see a way for me to avoid this.

    Yes, I can't directly blame anyone for this decision, it was my decision, and more fool me if it cost me big time and if I was weak and foolish for being put off so easily - regardless, there were many things going on in IM at this time that totally destroyed my confidence in the industry, this was one of them and I feel that it's relevant to my points here for those who don't realise this about me.

    Without even trying, due to someone elses erroneous actions, I had become like them. I had become a snake-oil salesman even though I did everything to avoid this. I looked at the offers I promoted to my subscribers, I looked at my subscribers (and noted that they were just like me) and I couldn't avoid noticing that with some of the offers I bought and then promoted to them, I didn't always follow through and take action on them - therefore I couldn't any longer justify whole-heartedly leading my subscribers down a path where they would spend money on stuff that wouldn't pay off for them, and I couldn't justify forming a profitable business out of pure deception. I felt that there had to be a better way.

    How many others from the theoretically possible 2750 were also disillusioned like this? How many others were flatly refused a refund by PLM? How many others lost valuable startup-investment cash on X amount of monthly subscriptions and the associated project costs - all from this one nefarious product launch?

    I'm sure I contributed to a thread here at the time, which ended up being deleted (perhaps it was one of our spats, Paul?) - the end result being that it did feel to me like a 'closed network' pulling rank and it felt like there was nowhere for the little guy to turn - the vendors sorted things out between themselves, us little guys got shafted.

    Out of the thousands of customers of both products, it appeared that most of them didn't even notice that they had been shafted and there certainly weren't many prepared to kick up a fuss and stand their ground, like me. It was a lonely time for me in my business and the IM upper echelons took on the same appearance as those legal-eagles referred to by the PLM owners - too big to be tackled and too big to be forced to treat the little guy fairly.

    It left a very bad taste so for me to see these articles from Joel laden with hypocrisy, snide jibes at nameless others and contradictions all based on stuff like -

    it's time someone came forward to draw a line in the sand. Since I don't see my peers doing it, I am willing to take the risk. It's too important to ignore.
    ...regardless of your friendship with him, it makes me want to share MY side of the story as one of the 'little guys' who's fledgling business got shafted and dumped all over by one of the 'big guys' who is now spouting about 'what's wrong with internet marketing.'

    What is (and was certainly moreso in the past) wrong with internet marketing is that although nowadays, I get treated with a lot more respect in this forum, (possibly due to my resilience, my blind determination to continue to be honest and make helpful posts and contribute to the all-round good of the forum and an adjustment in the frequency and voracity of my anti-guru posts) - what's happened in the past in a whole bunch of ultimately deleted posts was that countless times, if I wanted to debate issues here, I had to go up against people who appeared to be working in packs who's main tactic was to try and weaken my position by calling me a loser, a hater, a whiner and a whole bunch of other related things.

    I'm only in a position of strength now because I refused to be cowed by their approach and I have proved them wrong. But I still won't stand by and stay quiet when I see the same people trying to deceive today's new-newbies with the same hypocritical, nonsensical, totally misleading crap that they have been spieling out for years.

    I hope that it is noted that I don't generally 'trade' on these experiences, spend my time here dragging them up continually and that I wasn't going to go into this much detail, originally. But some things I see brought up here, relating to things said by certain people (Joel) are too much of a trigger for me to bite my lip. There are times when it's only right for us to share our experiences, if we really do have any kind of community here or any kind of sense of care for the inexperienced (and therefore) vulnerable.

    Joel feels that 'it's time someone came forward'. I agree. I distinctly remember the protagonists and sycophants who called me a loser, hater, whiner and a nobody. One day soon I might step back up to the plate and pay them back in the most fitting manner. They can blacklist me all they like - I don't need them, never have done and never will.
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    Let's hear your thoughts on Joel Comm's comments.
    Robert

    Sometimes (just sometimes ) we get a bit (or very) annoyed at what we perceive to be dropping standards in the field we're involved in.

    We rant, and launch a tirade - or even try to make a difference.

    Then, we do one of two things... walk away from the mess, or trudge on with renewed acceptance of a less than perfect world.

    And our audience may attribute different motives to our actions and words - depending on how they themselves feel at the moment!

    Just saying.

    Been there before, done something like it, survived. No, there isn't a t-shirt for these things, sorry

    All success
    Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Reverse marketing psychology.

    Gurus are bad.

    Joel Comm is not a guru.

    Therefore, Joel Comm is good.

    Works like a charm.

    Classic us vs. them psychology. Cult building 101.
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    • Profile picture of the author MalBryc
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Reverse marketing psychology.
      Gurus are bad.
      Joel Comm is not a guru.
      Therefore, Joel Comm is good.
      Works like a charm.
      Classic us vs. them psychology. Cult building 101.
      Very good point Michael, that's what I thought as I was reading the blog-post.

      Another thing is 'any press is good press' and Joel Comm has created a bit of buzz around himself with this blog post which can only help with his new products and I expect he may have read parts of this thread.

      I am a previous customer of Joel Comm's products from years ago around the time he was selling "AdSense Secrets" - I think that Joel Comm is just commeting on the state of the IM, as he may have seen it change in the short time he has been a major part of it, or it could be a marketing ploy...

      (Apoligises if I have repeated a point others made, I haven't read this whole thread. )
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  • Profile picture of the author dukelee
    I read joel comm's write up.well i guess that is his opinion.even if most people dont agree with him,he has a reason for saying that.,guess he wants to protect the newbies...
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  • Profile picture of the author ambitichx
    My thoughts exactly, keyz
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    It's tempting to think that there's some vital nugget of information that will propel you to success but really it's just about doing the basics day after day.
    So true Andrew.

    As I write, the Warrior Forum has 1,951,981 previous posts.

    If there's some big secret to being successful online I think it would have come out by now.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    while most are here talking about gurus and joel they are making money of all the free advertising they are getting. the other thing is selling the dream is what it is about as part of the package. --david
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  • Profile picture of the author Derwin
    I also read Joel Comm's blog and he discussed the concept of internet marketing very well. I really pleased by him to read his article. Yes you are saying right that this article is for beginners and new comers. I also appreciate his effort in this way. I thank him and you also.
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  • Profile picture of the author elementel
    It's also the "say something completely counter-intuitive to your audiences beliefs" sort of move. It happens in fitness all the time. The whole "cardio sucks for fat loss" is about to lose momentum and we'll all be making the opposite assertion in no time - whatever it takes to catch your attention!
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  • Profile picture of the author jcomm
    Hey everyone,

    Wow, just found this thread and am humbled and intrigued by the discussion that has taken place.

    I honestly have not read every comment, but I did want to pick up on a couple things, especially since I saw Paul enter the fray.

    1) I meant what I said. It was not written to create hype for a launch. I am very unhappy with the state of the IM industry and am not planning on releasing any IM products in the near future. Software, yes. Maybe some free reports. But you won't see me doing a big product launch. I am focusing on consulting, speaking, writing, application development and mobile.

    2) I was NOT clear about this line...

    "There is nothing wrong with learning how to leverage your passion to make money online. However, it is essential that people understand there is no get rich quick method! If there were, people wouldn't be selling products promising riches. They would be keeping it a secret and building wealth quietly."

    I can see why this was misunderstood.

    What I MEANT to communicate was that none of the "secrets" are true "get rich quick". They are strategies for making money... strategies that take effort and work to see result.

    By saying "secrets", I meant if what they were selling really was "secret" they would not be selling that secret. I called my AdSense book "AdSense Secrets". It doesn't mean I knew something no one else could know or figure out. It was just a marketing term.

    Hopefully that makes more sense. I guess I'll go edit my blog to straighten that out so there is no more confusion. This is what happens when I blog on vacation and don't bother to proofread.

    Oh, one more thing. I have approved every single comment related to the entry on my blog. There were a few detractors, but I have no problem with that. The only time I will delete a comment is if someone is abusive or threatening to me. It's my house and I won't allow it. That did not occur with my blog entry.

    Thanks for listening...

    Joel
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    • Profile picture of the author 6secrets
      The common reasons I've been hearing are that they - are retiring, have more than enough money, and want to help others.

      They are - not afraid of competition because of the sheer abundance of niche markets out there.

      Or - they simply want you to use affiliate links to bring them more potential costumers.

      There are a lot of great tools out there - but its only that 2% who really have the drive and the patients to make them work.

      Fully automated tools usually create spam - semi automated tools usually make work easier.
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    • Profile picture of the author Agoge Warrior
      Unfortunately, the so called "gurus", most but not all are the ones who are doing exactly what they want you to think YOU can do with their products. Make the most money possible and fast as possible with little to no work. And that is just not realistic.
      Internet marketing does work. But you have to treat it like a real business the same as you do an offline business. If you put the time, effort, and focus into it, you really can make a lot of money with online marketing.

      These gurus peddle their "wares" and about as soon as the product is released, the consumer is totally forgotten about, no support, and the guru moves on to the next product.

      At least there is comfort, there are "real" IM gurus out there that do look after the little people. You just have to go find them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Oconnor1
    I agree with a lot of his points. I constantly wonder what percentage of revenue generated in internet marketing is from teaching others internet marketing. Looking through the JV section in here it almost seems impossible to find someone to do a link or ad swap with in anything outside of internet marketing products.
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    • Profile picture of the author jcomm
      Allow me to demonstrate a few reasons that I don't post often on forums...

      Originally Posted by jclz3d View Post

      Most gurus don't know what they're talking about. Fact. If you ask them where they make their money from, i bet most of it comes from newbies trying to learn IM.
      That may be the case for some, but not for me. I was making money on sites LONG before I wrote an ebook. In fact, my first seven-figure deal was the sale of a site to Yahoo. I made a number of content sites and had licensing deals before the majority of the world even knew the world wide web existed. I am fortunate I was doing the right thing at the right time. Just want to set the record straight.

      Originally Posted by Andy Crofford View Post

      The bottom line is Joel Comm is constantly trying to sell you something. This is the equivalent of someone like Billy Mays talking about what is wrong with laundry detergent infomercials.
      I'm a lousy salesman. There are people that spend a lot of money to learn how to be trained to sell from the stage. They spend a ton of money on writing copy that sells. I do neither. What you see is what you get with me.

      What is it that you object to me "selling you" lately?

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Then your an idiot... Salty droid is a disgusting little worm, who uses innuendo and false info to slag off other people.
      Hopefully one day he will pick the wrong target...
      I cut short the quote because this kind of talk is totally unacceptable. You really need to think about what you are saying. I recommend a complete retraction.

      Originally Posted by jclz3d View Post

      Whats wrong with promoting adsense sites with 'machine generated spam' if it makes you a day?
      And who is doing that?

      Joel
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  • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
    I wish I could say that it was easy....but in defense of the "Gurus", there is now way I would be as successful as I am if I didn't buy some of their training programs. I look at it like going to Internet College. I have never asked for a refund, I find great value in pretty much everything I have purchased.
    Have been marketing full time online since 2007, it can work my friends. Just get rid of the lottery mentality.
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  • I like JC and trust him over most other gurus but I still prefer the Salty Droid as a source of info on what is wrong with internet marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Crofford
    The bottom line is Joel Comm is constantly trying to sell you something. This is the equivalent of someone like Billy Mays talking about what is wrong with laundry detergent infomercials.
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  • Profile picture of the author jclz3d
    Most gurus don't know what they're talking about. Fact. If you ask them where they make their money from, i bet most of it comes from newbies trying to learn IM.
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