Help Stop Warrior Forum Scammers! Can we have a Warrior Forum Escrow Please?

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi Allen, Mods, Fellow Warriors,

I've been noticing a lot of incidents of fraud/scam in the WSO and Warrior Services forums lately. It saddens me that our community is being degraded by a few despicable individuals that dare to call themselves "warriors" while taking money from newbies and the innocent.

In this light, would it not make sense to incorporate an Escrow service into our forum so that buyers will have some level of protections and sellers can instill confidence?

What are your thoughts? How can we put a stop to scammers amongst us?

Thanking you in advance,
Khemal

Escrow would maybe get a little complicated or maybe there is a simple form of escrow - I would'nt really know - perhaps someone with more experence on this will comment.

Maybe the WSO's could be vetted some way?

Thanks

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Lance K

14 years ago

If people would only do business with established members of the Warrior Forum community who have proven to be trustworthy, the scamming would pretty much be a non-issue.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

If people would only do business with established members of the Warrior Forum community who have proven to be trustworthy, the scamming would pretty much be a non-issue.

True. But try telling that to a newbie who falls for a jazzed up sales letter. How can one clearly identify an "established" member? The number of posts does not equal quality of service. Perhaps a better vendor certification process? Just thoughts.

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Alan Petersen

14 years ago

I sold a site via Flippa with escrow. I still wasn't paid. I wasn't naive enough to send the "buyer" my files but even with the protection of escrow.com I wasn't paid. Flippa banned the guy, escrow canceled the transaction but that was about it.

Just because there is an escrow system it doesn't mean squat. If anything it gives people a false sense of security.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Alan Petersen

I sold a site via Flippa with escrow. I still wasn't paid. I wasn't naive enough to send the "buyer" my files but even with the protection of escrow.com I wasn't paid. Flippa banned the guy, escrow canceled the transaction but that was about it.

Just because there is an escrow system it doesn't mean squat. If anything it gives people a false sense of security.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience at Flippa.

So if not an escrow then what? How can we protect buyers and sellers alike?

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

So if not an escrow then what? How can we protect buyers and sellers alike?

Simple.

Better education on how to do their own due diligence.

~Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Simple.

Better education on how to do their own due diligence.

~Michael

Now we're getting somewhere. So how do we do this? How do we educate a buyer?

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Now we're getting somewhere. So how do we do this? How do we educate a buyer?

1. Teach them that EVERY purchase is their responsibility.

2. Teach them the most common warning signs of bad offers.

3. Teach them how to analyze comments from others.

4. Teach them where to look into more information on sellers and different products.

5. Teach them how to look into the seller's previous track record.

6. Teach them that EVERY purchase is their responsibility.

7. Teach them that they are solely responsible for the purchases they make.

That's off the top of my head.

All the best,
Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

1. Teach them that EVERY purchase is their responsibility.

2. Teach them the most common warning signs of bad offers.

3. Teach them how to analyze comments from others.

4. Teach them where to look into more information on sellers and different products.

5. Teach them how to look into the seller's previous track record.

6. Teach them that EVERY purchase is their responsibility.

7. Teach them that they are solely responsible for the purchases they make.

That's off the top of my head.

All the best,
Michael

I like this a lot. Perhaps make this a sticky in the appropriate sections?

Thanks

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Ken

14 years ago

This should never become a forum where new entrepreneurs come to be taught.
Teaching is not what the forum is about. Learning is the reason the forum exists.

Allen and his aides have created a monumental learning environment. We
have only to help ourselves to the tools and information provided by the members and
then get to work.

Teaching and learning are only loosely related and should never be
confused with each other, as many a teacher will tell you.

When new members arrive they must have the ability to learn or they
will perish, and yes, getting scammed is part of the learning process.
It is usually a lesson well learned and remembered.

If you want to learn, you will. If you want to be taught...?

Ken

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

1. Teach them that EVERY purchase is their responsibility.

2. Teach them the most common warning signs of bad offers.

3. Teach them how to analyze comments from others.

4. Teach them where to look into more information on sellers and different products.

5. Teach them how to look into the seller's previous track record.

6. Teach them that EVERY purchase is their responsibility.

7. Teach them that they are solely responsible for the purchases they make.

That's off the top of my head.

All the best,
Michael

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken

This should never become a forum where new entrepreneurs come to be taught.
Teaching is not what the forum is about. Learning is the reason the forum exists.

Allen and his aides have created a monumental learning environment. We
have only to help ourselves to the tools and information provided by the members and
then get to work.

Teaching and learning are only loosely related and should never be
confused with each other, as many a teacher will tell you.

When new members arrive they must have the ability to learn or they
will perish, and yes, getting scammed is part of the learning process.
It is usually a lesson well learned and remembered.

If you want to learn, you will. If you want to be taught...?

Ken

Hi Ken,

I know what you're saying, but keep in mind that my comments were only meant as a response to a direct question. It's an answer to a "what if" question, not a suggestion for implementation.

The OP asked me how you would teach people to do due diligence, so that's what I came up with.

Also, if you actually read the list you will see that I said people need to take full responsibility for what they buy. Not only did I say it, I said it three times.

One other point, I know the difference between teaching and learning, but a lot of people learn best through teaching. Also, the Warrior Forum has TONS of teachings on different things, surely you've noticed.

Seriously, do you think all teaching on the WF is a bad thing?

Furthermore, "Allen and his aides" have created an environment that allows for the free exchange of ideas, sometimes those come in the form of teaching, other times they don't.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to annoy you with those suggestions. But, I will continue to make posts as I wish, and if that includes direct teaching, so be it.

All the best,
Michael

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Dan C. Rinnert 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Now we're getting somewhere. So how do we do this? How do we educate a buyer?

How do they not get ripped off offline? They just need to adapt those skills to online.
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Alan Petersen 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

I'm sorry to hear about your experience at Flippa.

So if not an escrow then what? How can we protect buyers and sellers alike?

As others have noted, I don't really think it's the responsibility of Allen or the warrior forum since the main purpose of this site is a forum. It's not really like odesk or elance. That's their main purpose vs. the Warrior Forum so I think it continues to "buyer beware" and common sense.

There was just a news report where I live about people getting ripped off on Craigslist. But a lot of those cases where like wow, if they just used common sense.

Doesn't take the sting out of getting ripped off but what's that saying about "fool me once"? So hopefully they'll learn from it.

Most importantly if a warrior is victimized they need to report it to the admins so that person is banned.

But I don't think an official warrior escrow service is the way to go. Plus I do believe as individuals you can initiate a transaction via escrow.com. So you could ask the seller to be paid via escrow.com. If the buyer picks up the fees and the dollar amount is large enough might be worth it. This of course isn't very feasible for $7 e-book.
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Lance K

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

True. But try telling that to a newbie who falls for a jazzed up sales letter.

A successful scam takes 2 parties.

Also, experience is one of the greatest teachers. And an unwise decision is sometimes the seed from which experience grows. Such is life.

Originally Posted by Khemal

How can one clearly identify an "established" member? The number of posts does not equal quality of service. Perhaps a better vendor certification process? Just thoughts.

Anyone can go to a member's profile and view all of their posts. Also, you can search the forum for feedback on the services they provide. Again, look at the profiles/posts of those leaving feedback.

The fact that someone has an offer posted on the Warrior Forum is in no way an implied endorsement of the service or service provider.

I imagine that if Allen were to implement rigorous vetting processes for WSOs, classified ads, etc. the cost of such services would increase 10 fold or more.

As it is now, Warrior Forum members are expected to be responsible for their own buying decisions. And if some junk slips through the cracks, it should be reported. When it gets reported, the mods do an excellent job of cleaning it up.

The system works pretty dang well. All it takes is a little effort and responsibility on the buyers' part.

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J Bold

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

If people would only do business with established members of the Warrior Forum community who have proven to be trustworthy, the scamming would pretty much be a non-issue.

Nice in theory but pretty much not reality. A lot of people who buy WSOs are new to the forum and don't even take all that in to account. People just don't pay attention to these kinds of things and that's why it happens. They probably barely even pay attention to how many posts the seller has. I mean, I agree and it'd be great if WSO buyers did that, but it's just not going to happen on a large scale.

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Jeremiah Walsh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

If people would only do business with established members of the Warrior Forum community who have proven to be trustworthy, the scamming would pretty much be a non-issue.

That does nothing to help people like me who are new to warrior forum and actually do know quite a bit about IM. It simply deters this site from getting any new contributing members.

I think this is a case of buyer beware.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by salesfist

That does nothing to help people like me who are new to warrior forum and actually do know quite a bit about IM. It simply deters this site from getting any new contributing members.

I think this is a case of buyer beware.

No, it doesn't, Unfortunately, there is no system that can be instituted
that can prevent people from being cheated.

Lance made the absolute best post in this whole thread. You need to come
here, contribute, establish a reputation for helping others and THEN you
will earn trust, or at least should.

At least that's the way it SHOULD be.

And if people only bought from members who have contributed for an
established length of time, the amount of fraud in this forum would be
virtually non existent.

Can an established member with thousands of posts suddenly turn bad?

Sure. A terrible financial disaster can cause people to do things that they
normally wouldn't do.

But those cases would be few and far in between.

By buying from people who have been here a month and only have a few
posts, you're looking for trouble.

That is the reality...fair or not.

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Thomas Smale

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Can an established member with thousands of posts suddenly turn bad?

Sure. A terrible financial disaster can cause people to do things that they
normally wouldn't do.

But those cases would be few and far in between.

By buying from people who have been here a month and only have a few
posts, you're looking for trouble.

That is the reality...fair or not.

This is slightly over-generalised, Steve.

Don't mean to be rude, but there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between "post count" and a person's trustworthiness. It's a common misconception by many new people that more posts = more knowledge = more trustworthy = more money, as it's simply not true.

You should conduct due diligence on everyone you deal with. If "post count" is a variable you take into account, then you need a serious rethink.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Smale

This is slightly over-generalised, Steve.

Don't mean to be rude, but there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between "post count" and a person's trustworthiness. It's a common misconception by many new people that more posts = more knowledge = more trustworthy = more money, as it's simply not true.

You should conduct due diligence on everyone you deal with. If "post count" is a variable you take into account, then you need a serious rethink.

Somebody who has been here for 3 years, has several thousand posts and
has already run several successful WSOs is less likely to run off with your
money than somebody who just got it.

No, it's not fool proof. I never said it was. But the risk is a lot less than
buying from people who have no history of contribution whatsoever.

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Thomas Smale

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Somebody who has been here for 3 years, has several thousand posts and
has already run several successful WSOs is less likely to run off with your
money than somebody who just got it.

No, it's not fool proof. I never said it was. But the risk is a lot less than
buying from people who have no history of contribution whatsoever.

I'm going to respectfully disagree.

I haven't really been around this forum long enough to comment, but having been on other IM forums and seen so called "established" members rip people off for 1000s I'm always skeptical.

The cynical way to look at it would be that if you have an established reputation, it is far easier to rip people off as they are more likely to trust you. You're going to be given the benefit of the doubt by a buyer more often than not if you are established. You can easily make a quick 5 figures and vanish without trace, which, in times of financial difficulty (as you pointed out) could happen.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Smale

I'm going to respectfully disagree.

I haven't really been around this forum long enough to comment, but having been on other IM forums and seen so called "established" members rip people off for 1000s I'm always skeptical.

The cynical way to look at it would be that if you have an established reputation, it is far easier to rip people off as they are more likely to trust you. You're going to be given the benefit of the doubt by a buyer more often than not if you are established. You can easily make a quick 5 figures and vanish without trace, which, in times of financial difficulty (as you pointed out) could happen.

What part of "it's not fool proof" DIDN'T you understand.

If you want perfection, you won't find it on this planet.

But my way is still better than buying from somebody with no reputation
at all.

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Thomas Smale

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

What part of "it's not fool proof" DIDN'T you understand.

If you want perfection, you won't find it on this planet.

But my way is still better than buying from somebody with no reputation
at all.

To be fair, you make a very valid point regarding those who use real names. These people are far less likely to rip you off.

I think I was really getting at the average forum user who is relatively anonymous due to a nickname etc.

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TheWealthSquad

14 years ago

Post count and time here does show something.

It shows if they have been active in the forums. The number of times they are Thanked also shows if they have given relevant and useful advice.

It isn't the end all be all by any means but it does give you a way to check on things. If someone has 5 posts and they are all asking newbie type questions, it should raise a red flag if they are selling how to make 100,000 a month using information.

If someone has hundreds of posts, then you can at least spend time vetting their advice and reputation.

In all cases you should still practice common sense.

You can also post a question in the review site and ask if anyone has used the product.

You can PM the seller asking for more information. Check to see who bought it and liked it.

If you get scammed, report them to the PMs. If it happens enough they will get banned. Allen and the mods keep this forum pretty clean.

We are all moderators as the saying goes. We are also all adults. We are Warriors.

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GrantFreeman

14 years ago

Khemal & Bradshaw,

My take on this popup thing, is that it helps remind people of what's already stated in the agreement from the very moment they signed up as a member, and how to conduct themselves as responsible adults while they are here.

This popup might be a good idea to remind people about those things stated in the OP (including the rules that already exist) before they enter the WSO section, because we often forget why we came here in the first place.

We, as a community, don't have the right to change the rules or tell people how we expect them to act, but we can make suggestions that help the machine run smoothly as a whole.

There's so much good content here, and so many knowlegable people that info-overload sometimes overtakes better judgement. It happens to everybody.

There's no "cancel" button in the popup because no one has the "right" to buy anything here. Likewise, no one has the "right" to SELL anything here either. Those are privileges. I've stated nothing in that popup that any half-successful buyer should already know in the "real world". It's smart business knowlege. If a member can't agree, then don't buy. Pretty simple.

Hope it's not too harsh.

If Allen and the mods find the popup helps remind people of the things members already agreed to, then they will use it. If not, then it's probably not a benifit that serves everyone.

Grant

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Robert Oliver

14 years ago

I have been here 5 years and have seen everything.

Common sense is the #1 thing you have to use when

shopping in the wso forum. Quit buying on impulse

and buy if the wso makes sense. There is no way to

police that forum 100%. You have to take responsibility

for your actions. There are scam wso's running right now,

so a word of caution is do your homework before you

press the buy button and you'll eliminate 99% of your

problem. Most of the scams out there have glowing red

billboards if you just take precautions.

To add a positive to this, there are also some great wso's

running that will make you money. Now go find them and

get busy building your business.

Robert Oliver

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

And to those complaining that it's unfair to penalize newer members - well, that's just diddums. The reputation of this forum - and the reason why it's become such a Mecca for IM peddlers - is largely down to the contributions and diligence of experienced Warriors over several years. I don't believe the WSO forum was ever intended as a resource for any Johnny-come-lately marketer to waltz in and immediately start to exploit this highly targeted demographic.

It can't be too much to ask that one should earn the right to that access by contributing to the community.

Frank,

If it was possible to thank a post more than once, this post would have had several from me.

Tina

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Frank,

And to those complaining that it's unfair to penalize newer members

Any argument that starts from that premise is wrong, as you suggest. You do not "penalize" someone by not giving them unearned privileges.

The whole concept that everyone must be treated equally is absurd. If you're new and have no track record, you should expect to have to prove yourself to some degree. Any attempt to discard that notion should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

Brian asked "what frauds and scams are you referring to?" I've been watching this thread, and was waiting for someone to bring that up explicitly. That's complicated by Rule #1, to be sure, but even when I ask people privately, the stories rarely fall into anything that fits the description. When they do, the WSOs, and usually the "scammers," get nuked.

Too many people confuse personal disappointment with scamming. And that comes from the same place as the argument against requiring standards that the brand new member won't be able/willing to meet: The concept of entitlement.

There are mechanisms in place for dealing with real issues. They do the job nicely, when you use them. If you aren't willing to use them, you have no business complaining and trying to change a system that works.

It would be really nice if folks would stop and think about what would be required in order to implement ideas before putting them forth as serious suggestions. Things like how much programming or personal time would be required, or what's the expense, or what impact would this have on the people who aren't creating problems? How easy would it be to game the suggested approach? What legal issues might there be?

This topic comes up often, usually started by someone with little or no experience with the forum. The suggestions are the same now as they've been ever since the WSO section was created. They will continue to be brought up for as long as we keep getting new members. It will be refreshing to see a new idea once every couple of years, maybe, but it's been longer than that since the last one.

The system works, if you use it. Provide feedback on purchases, good, bad or indifferent. Report those who fail to deliver, lie about the product, or otherwise do things differently than they promise. Don't spend money you can't afford to lose. Think before you buy.

Simple stuff. Do it, and the problem pretty much goes away.

Paul

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

It will be refreshing to see a new idea once every couple of years, maybe, but it's been longer than that since the last one.

Paul, the reason for that is simple. As you said, the system works. There
are no new ideas to be had that will make any difference OR can be
instituted without putting a burden on time, resources or whatever.

In short...there is nothing that needs to be done.

But these threads will continue to pop up every few months like clockwork.

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OnlineMarketingSys

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Paul, the reason for that is simple. As you said, the system works. There
are no new ideas to be had that will make any difference OR can be
instituted without putting a burden on time, resources or whatever.

In short...there is nothing that needs to be done.

But these threads will continue to pop up every few months like clockwork.

Yes I have to agree with Steven 100% and he's been around the forum for as long as I have if not longer. Any sales listing is manually reviewed before going live (is that to say 1% that shouldn't be approved, don't get through .. NO) but its a pretty good number.

That said, warriorforum and the moderators/owner take action if its apparent that someone is outright scamming people and their account is banned. I've honestly not seen a lot of problems, compared to the other popular IM forum, which basically takes a stance of doing nothing.

Check reviews, look at the persons history here. Are they involved or is their only interest in selling their wares. Do that and you'll be fine.

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Tom B Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Too many people confuse personal disappointment with scamming.
Paul

Unfortunately, the use of scam, much like spam, is a word thrown around rather loosely on this forum.
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tryinhere

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

It will be refreshing to see a new idea once every couple of years, maybe, but it's been longer than that since the last one.Paul

On the surface (not sure if this has been suggested before ?) without any programming involved, what about if the op in the WSO, WFH or Private forum who had products and or services added a default line of text to the bottom of their first post (In grey). along the lines of the example ( i am no word smith so please doctor it up)

Your thanks is a vote of approval: Please only post your thanks to this first post if you have purchased / used or trialled this product or service and wish to place a vote of approval.

? it does need a tidy up on words, and any one is welcome to add / modify for a forum consensus.

Once this is added to the bottom of the first post those that vote per say would be placing their rep on the line as well, where votes by seasoned warriors would hold more weight than say a half a dozen newbies.

It would not be perfect but would be a self governed option that may work.

@ the op in regards people ripping forum members on products and services, just keep an open mind that the gate can and often does swing both ways.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Your thanks is a vote of approval: Please only post your thanks to this first post if you have purchased / used or trialled this product or service and wish to place a vote of approval.

It's a variation on the rating system idea. Too easy to game, especially since most people who buy WSOs are not regular participants on the main forum. They have no idea who's who. You would be amazed at how many people have no idea who ANY of the moderators are, for example.

Paul

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tryinhere

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

It's a variation on the rating system idea. Too easy to game, especially since most people who buy WSOs are not regular participants on the main forum. They have no idea who's who. You would be amazed at how many people have no idea who ANY of the moderators are, for example.

Paul

it was worth a shot, maybe with some programming a thanks Sig could be given a value a bit like pr or so than in the section where it has how many people thanked this post it could also have a number underneath as to the strength of those thanks ?

the strength could be based on that persons own number of thanks per say / or as voted by others

The following users thank This person for their post: Rating / 85

that way people would not need to know who is who or who made who, but could gage from the rating of those Sig's.

all is good i am sure there is no easy fix.

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George Wright 14 years ago

Paul Myers,

You said "Too many people confuse personal disappointment with scamming."

Man, you sure have a way with words. I had a long post ready to go here that you said in one sentence.

Thanks,

George Wright
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bizmarketingguru

14 years ago

Paul Myers,

I have already have complained about this and nothing has been been done.

Regarding your insulting and rude comments about me who in the hell do you think you are?

So,I think as a well estabilshed moderator of this forum you should DEEPLY worry because I plan to complain about the scams and scammers on your forum.

This complaint is not to be taken up by you (as your forum has done nothing to attempt to address the problem) but on top of being scammed you hurl abuse at me.I deserve much better.

So I will see that this forum will be investigated by your govermental bodies whether state or national level i.e.FTC etc.

I might not know much about internet marketing but I know alot about the legal system.

Also,just because I am based in the UK,please do not think for one moment I will not be persuing this matter.

Thanks
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Imran Naseem

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

Paul Myers,

I have already have complained about this and nothing has been been done.

Regarding your insulting and rude comments about me who in the hell do you think you are?

So,I think as a well estabilshed moderator of this forum you should DEEPLY worry because I plan to complain about the scams and scammers on your forum.

This complaint is not to be taken up by you (as your forum has done nothing to attempt to address the problem) but on top of being scammed you hurl abuse at me.I deserve much better.

So I will that this forum will be investigated by your govermental bodies whether or a state or national level i.e.FTC. etc

I might not know much about internet marketing but I know alot about the legal system.

Also,just because I am based in the UK,please do not think for one moment I will not be persuing this matter.

I would not argue with Paul. If you are not happy with anything you need to be a bit more nicer. It is a bit rude speaking to a moderator like that.

Paul and all the mods are doing a great job every single day. If it wasn't for these guys this forum would turn into another version of [edited]!

Thanks

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

Paul Myers,

I have already have complained about this and nothing has been been done.

Regarding your insulting and rude comments about me who in the hell do you think you are?

So,I think as a well estabilshed moderator of this forum you should DEEPLY worry because I plan to complain about the scams and scammers on your forum.

This complaint is not to be taken up by you (as your forum has done nothing to attempt to address the problem) but on top of being scammed you hurl abuse at me.I deserve much better.

So I will that this forum will be investigated by your govermental bodies whether or a state or national level i.e.FTC. etc

I might not know much about internet marketing but I know alot about the legal system.

Also,just because I am based in the UK,please do not think for one moment I will not be persuing this matter.

LOL, Paul was not being rude - only pointing out what he would point out to anyone he doesn't really know. If he said that to me I wouldn't be offended. Paul really doesn't know me, and I don't know him - although I know a lot more about him then I do about you. We don't know you from adam. You can make all the threats you want about what ever. Knowing what I do know about Paul, your threats bear no weight what so ever.

Who are you and why should I listen to you?

That is what this is all about.

As what was said before - we are not all equals at this forum.

I might not know much about internet marketing but I know alot about the legal system.

I've actually dealt with an online scam which is still going through the legal process for 3 years now. What I can tell you is be very careful before you start yelling scam and what you type on the internet. It can all be traced and you can get sued for defamation of character just as easily online as offline.

You want to point out scams? Be my guest. But make sure you can back up your claims 100 percent if you don't want to find yourself in hot water.

More credibility is given to real names and faces than anonymous entities.

Good luck if you expect to remain anonymous.

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Tina Golden 14 years ago

I might not know much about internet marketing but I know alot about the legal system.

It has been made plain in various stickies and whatnot throughout the site that the forum in no way endorses or warrantees any service or product you buy here. I don't know what you THINK you know about the legal system, but the forum is not responsible for your private transaction. Would you sue the newspaper because you got rooked by a classified ad? That's just plain silly.

Tina
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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Regarding your insulting and rude comments about me who in the hell do you think you are?

I said nothing insulting about you at all. I commented on a specific statement, and asked why we should give your opinions any weight. I also stated that you've demonstrated that you don't know how these things work, which suggests a lack of knowledge, not a character flaw.

But hey, have a fit if you like.

As far as the threats... go for it. You didn't buy the allegedly disputed offers from us. You bought them from someone who paid for advertising space here. And the warnings about that are included in the rules stickies at the top of that section. Your beef is with the sellers, and any governmental body is going to look at it that way.

Clearly another area in which your experience lags behind the strength of your opinions.

Now, if you want to PM me something concrete, I'll look into it, just as I would for anyone else. If not, that's your problem.

Paul
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

...because I plan to complain about the scams and scammers on your forum.

...

So I will see that this forum will be investigated by your govermental bodies whether state or national level i.e.FTC etc.

I might not know much about internet marketing but I know alot about the legal system.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And, to me, THAT is one of the BEST reasons why the WF will NEVER have a body of mods that approve WSOs. Once they would give their stamp of approval, they would become culpable.

Once you put the burden of diligence on the WF, they become responisible; if not legally, then at least in the eyes of buyers.

YOU, and you ALONE, are responsible for the purchases you make.

All the best,
Michael

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

Paul Myers,

I have already have complained about this and nothing has been been done.

Wombat, calling Mrs. Wombat....

Paul,

Is your cat posting again?

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

bizmarketingguru,

I see you have spent the first 22 or so posts on this forum in the buyers area.

Perhaps you could share with us why you did not come back into the threads of the things you purchased and state your full experience?

What do you define as contribution?

Because at this particular moment in time,I have nothing to offer this community because I am learning,purchasing products and hiring people(outsourcing as you call it in the trade) to build my online presence.
Frankly I have had several very smooth transactions both services and WSOs with the exception of the scanario that I have highlghted in my previous post.

So anyone with a product or a service could benefit from me being on this forum.So do you not consider a very serious buyer of products and services a bona fide contributor?

Someone simply coming in and spending money and asking most questions in private actually does nothing for me as far as contributing to the forum. I don't get anything out of it.

On the other hand, if someone were to buy stuff, and go back and leave reviews of their experience of the transaction, that would be a wonderful contribution. If they were to ask questions about the product in the open where I could read the replies in advance, that would be great.

There are ways to write reviews of your experiences, even if you don't know for sure if the product will or will not work for you - and without divulging your specific niches. And just because a particular product may not fit into your marketing plan the way you intended, does not qualify it for "Scam."

Regarding the service you seem to be having an issue with, there are ways to get a refund - so do look into that, but I'd be hesitant to cry scam on that one as well - as you have no idea what is going on with a person when it is a live service that is required. He appears to be a one man show, and he could either have bitten off more than he could chew or could be dealing with personal issues. No excuse for your bad experience thus far of course, but it could all be unintentional.

He appears to have some satisfied customers.

Did you get a quote on a time frame you could expect when you ordered the service? That would be important information to include in a review on the thread itself.

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BrianMcLeod 14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

I will see that this forum will be investigated by your govermental bodies whether state or national level i.e. FTC etc.

Hysterical... in every sense of the word.

"I'll get you, Dorothy... and your little dog TOO!"
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New Life

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

If people would only do business with established members of the Warrior Forum community who have proven to be trustworthy, the scamming would pretty much be a non-issue.

But then those who are just starting out wont have anyway to break in , no matter how sincere they are and how good their products are...

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Originally Posted by New Life

But then those who are just starting out wont have anyway to break in , no matter how sincere they are and how good their products are...

Not true. You come here, you contribute and eventually you get there.

No, it doesn't happen overnight or even quickly.

I didn't run my first WSO until I had been here almost half a year.

That's the way it SHOULD be...IMO.

But hey, I'm just a nobody around here so take my opinion for what it's
worth to you.
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Khemal

14 years ago

All of the freelance sites have some form of simple escrow built in. The buyer pays the "Site" the Site holds the money until the seller completes the work and then the buyer requsts the money to be released to the seller upon receipt of service. There are some excellent coders here. They can help secure our community and help build a system I'm sure.

Khemal

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Lance K 14 years ago

This isn't a freelance site. It's a community.
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- Khemal 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Lance K
  
  This isn't a freelance site. It's a community.
  
  I care for this community There is a section in this community that scams take place in. What will this community do about it?
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

All of the freelance sites have some form of simple escrow built in. The buyer pays the "Site" the Site holds the money until the seller completes the work and then the buyer requsts the money to be released to the seller upon receipt of service. There are some excellent coders here. They can help secure our community and help build a system I'm sure.

Khemal

This is a forum, not a freelance site. Would you also like someone to go along with you to the grocery store to squeeze the fruit so you don't buy something that isn't ripe?

Why is it that people think someone else is at fault when they make a bad purchase? You're an adult I presume, and should be able to make purchases without someone holding your hand.

It's called due diligence .... Is the seller brand new? Are there unbelievable income claims? Does it sound too good to be true? If you can answer yes to any of the above, perhaps you shouldn't buy it. If you do buy it anyway ... that's the risk you took and it's your responsiblity.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

This is a forum, not a freelance site. Would you also like someone to go along with you to the grocery store to squeeze the fruit so you don't buy something that isn't ripe?

Why is it that people think someone else is at fault when they make a bad purchase? You're an adult I presume, and should be able to make purchases without someone holding your hand.

It's called due diligence .... Is the seller brand new? Are there unbelievable income claims? Does it sound too good to be true? If you can answer yes to any of the above, perhaps you shouldn't buy it. If you do buy it anyway ... that's the risk you took and it's your responsiblity.

Why the defensive attitude? I'm merely asking the community to come up with a solution. If you don't agree with mine how about you come up with you own?

No one came to your "shop" to buy fruit. You came to OUR community to peddle your "fruit". So why the heck can't we sample it if we want to?

Be part of the solution. Contrubute not complain.

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Johnny Slater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Why the defensive attitude? I'm merely asking the community to come up with a solution.

Allen has already came up with a solution. It's called buyer beware.

Allen has said over and over that responsibility falls directly on the buyers to know who they are doing business with and to know what they are buying.

Others have said it very clearly, if there is anything that looks fishy about an offer then don't buy it. This is a business forum, not a preschool. Everyone here is responsible for thier own actions and their own choices.

No one is forcing anyone to buy anything and if you make a purchase then it is up to you to know who you are buying from. If you can't be bothered to do a little research before you give your money to someone, then all blame for you being scammed falls directly back on you.

Allen and the Warrior Forum are in no way responsible for any transactions taking place here. Know who you are doing business with. To be bluntly honest, if you are nieve enough to fall for the hyped sales tactics and flat out lies then that is not the fault of anyone but yourself.

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hmigroupllc

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

Allen has already came up with a solution. It's called buyer beware.

Allen has said over and over that responsibility falls directly on the buyers to know who they are doing business with and to know what they are buying.

Others have said it very clearly, if there is anything that looks fishy about an offer then don't buy it. This is a business forum, not a preschool. Everyone here is responsible for thier own actions and their own choices.

No one is forcing anyone to buy anything and if you make a purchase then it is up to you to know who you are buying from. If you can't be bothered to do a little research before you give your money to someone, then all blame for you being scammed falls directly back on you.

Allen and the Warrior Forum are in no way responsible for any transactions taking place here. Know who you are doing business with. To be bluntly honest, if you are nieve enough to fall for the hyped sales tactics and flat out lies then that is not the fault of anyone but yourself.

Not trying to be cynical, but I totally agree that it's as much a buyer responsibility as anyone's when it comes to preventing scams.

The proposal to put the monkey on the forum's back reeks of socialist muck that always blames someone else for personal problems.

I've certainly bought things that I didn't think lived up to anything close to what I believed. I don't run around looking for someone else to blame or some great protection agency. Imagine the cost of that!

This ability to do the WSO type offers would cease to exist, or you would have to pay a stiff membership fee. I certainly don't want that to happen. I've got some great deals here in the forum.

The mechanism is already in place. If you think you get scammed, report it to the forum, and if valid, the person will get banned. The MODs make it very clear that they have no ability to be the "great protector" of all buyers, and that you as a buyer do so at your own risk.

I'm an entrepreneur, I accept risk.

So, sorry if that sounds too harsh, but to me it's just reality. If you want someone else to pay for your risk, then you probably should choose a socialist forum. They love that stuff.

Have a great day

Wayne Sharer

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

No one came to your "shop" to buy fruit. You came to OUR community to peddle your "fruit". So why the heck can't we sample it if we want to?

Be part of the solution. Contrubute not complain.

You're the one complaining, not me. You think the Warrior Forum should also be a babysitter and keep you from making bad purchases. I think that is your responsibility, not the Warrior Forum's.

What other site that runs ads will hold your hand and tell you what to buy or not to buy? Name one.

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thebitbotdotcom

14 years ago

I would love to see a review board of ten trusted Warrior Reviewers that assigns a rating to each WSO.

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sbucciarel Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by thebitbotdotcom

I would love to see a review board of ten trusted Warrior Reviewers that assigns a rating to each WSO.

And how much do you propose to pay these 10 Warriors for giving up all their time to review these WSOs?
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- Michael Oksa 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  And how much do you propose to pay these 10 Warriors for giving up all their time to review these WSOs?
  
  I get your point, Suzanne. My thinking is that even if you paid each them $1000 each for every product they review, it wouldn't matter. It still removes the buyer's due diligence from the equation.
  
  Plus, and you've probably already thought of this, the opinion of those 10 people about the quality of the product would still be subjective. In other words, even if all 10 gave it their highest rating, that is no guarantee that you or I would agree wiuth their assessment.
  
  All the best,
  Michael
  
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  Alan Petersen 14 years ago
  
  The 10 warrior review board... can't even imagine the crap they would have to deal with when they would rate a product with a poor rating. Or if they rate a product with 3 stars vs. 4 stars... the vendor would be tweaked.
  
  Every WSO, every classified here, gives the opportunity for buyers to review it so that's already in place. Most don't. Some game it. But it is there.
  
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Orator 14 years ago

Originally Posted by thebitbotdotcom

I would love to see a review board of ten trusted Warrior Reviewers that assigns a rating to each WSO.

I'm not doubting the integrity of anyone here, but that seems a woefully complicated process that would lead to accusations of bias.
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tpw 14 years ago

Originally Posted by thebitbotdotcom

I would love to see a review board of ten trusted Warrior Reviewers that assigns a rating to each WSO.

So the big shots can play politics with others... Take a look at sites like the Wikipedia and Open Directory, and you will quickly see how politics can stand in the way of progress in a community...
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Ronald Nzimora

14 years ago

All warior forum members are advised to look before they leap.

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Thomas Smale

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi Allen, Mods, Fellow Warriors,

I've been noticing a lot of incidents of fraud/scam in the WSO and Warrior Services forums lately. It saddens me that our community is being degraded by a few despicable individuals that dare to call themselves "warriors" while taking money from newbies and the innocent.

In this light, would it not make sense to incorporate an Escrow service into our forum so that buyers will have some level of protections and sellers can instill confidence?

What are your thoughts? How can we put a stop to scammers amongst us?

Thanking you in advance,
Khemal

Are you aware of the expense and red tape involved in setting up an Escrow service?

It really isn't a practical or cost-effective solution for a webmaster forum.

Lots of sites (Flippa is one that comes to mind) would benefit from their own Escrow service, but it opens them up to far more liability, so I'm not surprised they haven't bothered.

Just needs some good old due diligence. Or, as you should with all serious business transactions, write up a contract and make the vendor sign it. If they aren't willing, move on.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

I think what Lance is saying is that we are forum, first and foremost. The WSO section is not the main purpose of this forum. It's a nice perk to have, but not what the WF is really about.

Also, would there be anything stopping a third party escrow service? Then buyers could use that service if they thought it would increase sales.

Another question, how would you stop dishonest buyers from saying they didn't receive the product, or were otherwise ripped off? I'm curious about that aspect of it.

Yes, I care about this community, too. I'm not aware of anything else like it on the web. Because of that, I tend to not care for a lot of things that seek to "improve" it. While the intentions behind these "improvements" are good, in reality, they would likely cause just as many problems as they seek to solve, if not cause more.

Another question, and I ask because I don't know...

How did you find out they were frauds/scams?

If it's because somebody else bought them and left feedback stating as much, then it shows that part of the buying/selling/feedback process works.

If it's because you bought them and discovered it for yourself, did you leave honest feedback?

Finally, the biggest objection I have to the actual implementation of an escrow service is that it would be a minefield of going against Rule #1 of the forum. In other words, it would devolve into a shouting match of buyers and sellers each claiming they got ripped off, and because the WF Escrow would be handling the money, guess who would get the brunt of the blame?

Again, I know you mean well and envision the idea as making the WF a better place for everyone, but the way I see it, the reality would be alarmingly different.

All the best,
Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

I think what Lance is saying is that we are forum, first and foremost. The WSO section is not the main purpose of this forum. It's a nice perk to have, but not what the WF is really about.

Also, would there be anything stopping a third party escrow service? Then buyers could use that service if they thought it would increase sales.

Another question, how would you stop dishonest buyers from saying they didn't receive the product, or were otherwise ripped off? I'm curious about that aspect of it.

Yes, I care about this community, too. I'm not aware of anything else like it on the web. Because of that, I tend to not care for a lot of things that seek to "improve" it. While the intentions behind these "improvements" are good, in reality, they would likely cause just as many problems as they seek to solve, if not cause more.

Another question, and I ask because I don't know...

How did you find out they were frauds/scams?

If it's because somebody else bought them and left feedback stating as much, then it shows that part of the buying/selling/feedback process works.

If it's because you bought them and discovered it for yourself, did you leave honest feedback?

Finally, the biggest objection I have to the actual implementation of an escrow service is that it would be a minefield of going against Rule #1 of the forum. In other words, it would devolve into a shouting match of buyers and sellers each claiming they got ripped off, and because the WF Escrow would be handling the money, guess who would get the brunt of the blame?

Again, I know you mean well and envision the idea as making the WF a better place for everyone, but the way I see it, the reality would be alarmingly different.

All the best,
Michael

Thanks Michael. You make very good sense indeed. A lot of things to consider no doubt.

I've had my say and I hope everyone else has theirs and perhaps some good will come from this in some form, if not in the form of an escrow.

Khemal

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inter123 14 years ago

What are examples of the scams that could take place?
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- Khemal 14 years ago
  
  [DELETED]
  
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

8. Encourage EVERY buyer to leave feedback - good or bad.

~Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

8. Encourage EVERY buyer to leave feedback - good or bad.

~Michael

It would be nice for buyers to be able to post feedback at one place collectively so that potential buyers don't have to rely on the seller consolidating the reviews/feedback.

But I'm sure someone's going to jump in and say it's the buyer's responsibility to dig through the posts and find reviews

Oh well, it's all good. How about 9) and 10) Michael?

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

It would be nice for buyers to be able to post feedback at one place collectively so that potential buyers don't have to rely on the seller consolidating the reviews/feedback.

But I'm sure someone's going to jump in and say it's the buyer's responsibility to dig through the posts and find reviews

Oh well, it's all good. How about 9) and 10) Michael?

The ONLY place a review needs to be written is where people will be buying it. It's not about digging through posts, it's about making the posts where they count most - at the potential point of purchase.

PLUS there is ALREADY a review section of the forum. Anybody can offer a full-blown review of any product they wish, as long as it's honest and factual.

All the best,
Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

The ONLY place a review needs to be written is where people will be buying it. It's not about digging through posts, it's about making the posts where they count most - at the potential point of purchase.

PLUS there is ALREADY a review section of the forum. Anybody can offer a full-blown review of any product they wish, as long as it's honest and factual.

All the best,
Michael

Would be nice if a seller posted a link to the review section where the review took place.

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George Wright

14 years ago

Hi Michael,

I agree with everything you've said in this thread except rule #6 in the review section says "this section is not to review WSOs"

George Wright

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

The ONLY place a review needs to be written is where people will be buying it. It's not about digging through posts, it's about making the posts where they count most - at the potential point of purchase.

PLUS there is ALREADY a review section of the forum. Anybody can offer a full-blown review of any product they wish, as long as it's honest and factual.

All the best,
Michael

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Ronak Shah

14 years ago

I think asking to protect our fellow warriors in some way or the other is the RIGHT thing to do.

WSO's are part of a warrior's experience here though not the whole and sole.

All warriors are bound to get taken away by some sort of a WSO, whether it is a quality one or not.

Look raising the level of protection for our members here is ONLY going to benefit us and not harm us.

So, there could be a review system here which tells us whether the product is TOP quality or not. We could have a community of reviewers who are themselves successful at selling top notch products in the WSO section.

All those people coming and selling all hogwash are going to be challenged to start a WSO that is original, not some rehashed crap that they think will make ONLY them money.

After all, everyone here is working to make the money and every cent they pay someone to get trained has value. Why not get ourselves protected? I've no reason to understand why we can't protect ourselves! SIMPLE

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronakshah

I think asking to protect our fellow warriors in some way or the other is the RIGHT thing to do.

WSO's are part of a warrior's experience here though not the whole and sole.

All warriors are bound to get taken away by some sort of a WSO, whether it is a quality one or not.

Look raising the level of protection for our members here is ONLY going to benefit us and not harm us.

So, there could be a review system here which tells us whether the product is TOP quality or not. We could have a community of reviewers who are themselves successful at selling top notch products in the WSO section.

All those people coming and selling all hogwash are going to be challenged to start a WSO that is original, not some rehashed crap that they think will make ONLY them money.

After all, everyone here is working to make the money and every cent they pay someone to get trained has value. Why not get ourselves protected? I've no reason to understand why we can't protect ourselves! SIMPLE

Exactly.

My suggestion was the escrow service but it looks like a lot of people don't like that idea. That's fine and I'm fine with that. But if not that then we need to do SOME THING. At least I TRIED to get something in place and not just point to a "Buyer Beware" sign and continue on my merry way.

Perhaps I care too much. I'll take that chance and look myself in the mirror without shame.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Exactly.

My suggestion was the escrow service but it looks like a lot of people don't like that idea. That's fine and I'm fine with that. But if not that then we need to do SOME THING. At least I TRIED to get something in place and not just point to a "Buyer Beware" sign and continue on my merry way.

Perhaps I care too much. I'll take that chance and look myself in the mirror without shame.

Careful now! Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we care any less.

The ONLY thing that will ever help, in my opinion, is if people learn the things I suggested. And, yes, that really is the equivalent of a "Buyer Beware" sign.

Hang that sign up in big, bold letters. Then teach people HOW to beware. Anything else is open to abuse, creates more problems than it solves and complicates things.

In fact, I would like to suggest that this approach is the most caring of all. Why? Because it arms people for making better purchases everywhere on the web, not just here.

Also, it's not up to the seller to post a link to their reviews. For one thing, not all products are reviewed. Second, what would stop them from gaming that system as well? All it would take is for them to get a couple buddies to post good reviews in the appropriate section, and then link to it.

In short, anything that removes due diligence from the part of the buyer does a disservice to that buyer. On the surface such "improvements" make sense, but dig deeper and you'll see where I'm coming from.

All the best,
Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Careful now! Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we care any less.

The ONLY thing that will ever help, in my opinion, is if people learn the things I suggested. And, yes, that really is the equivalent of a "Buyer Beware" sign.

Hang that sign up in big, bold letters. Then teach people HOW to beware. Anything else is open to abuse, creates more problems than it solves and complicates things.

In fact, I would like to suggest that this approach is the most caring of all. Why? Because it arms people for making better purchases everywhere on the web, not just here.

Also, it's not up to the seller to post a link to their reviews. For one thing, not all products are reviewed. Second, what would stop them from gaming that system as well? All it would take is for them to get a couple buddies to post good reviews in the appropriate section, and then link to it.

In short, anything that removes due diligence from the part of the buyer does a disservice to that buyer. On the surface such "improvements" make sense, but dig deeper and you'll see where I'm coming from.

All the best,
Michael

Michael,

I value your contribution greatly and have already ackowledged it. When you commented you gave suggestions etc and that's great. That's what I'm after. It shows you care. We need more like you. We all care about the forum. No doubt there. Just wish we can make it a little better/safer, that's all.

I won't go beyond that as it seems I've touched quite a few nerves already. I've said my piece. Let's hope something good comes out of it.

Have a Blessed day all,
Khemal

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Michael,

I value your contribution greatly and have already ackowledged it. When you commented you gave suggestions etc and that's great. That's what I'm after. It shows you care. We need more like you. We all care about the forum. No doubt there. Just wish we can make it a little better/safer, that's all.

I won't go beyond that as it seems I've touched quite a few nerves already. I've said my piece. Let's hope something good comes out of it.

Have a Blessed day all,
Khemal

Hi Khemal,

That's the way things often happen. For what it's worth, I don't really think you have touched any nerves. Nobody seems to be taking anything personally and it is a worthy discussion.

May I make a freindly suggestion? If it's really that important to you, then don't bow out of the discussion.

I'm reminded of a saying a very wise man once shared with me...

There is no conflict resolution without conflict.

Here's the way I see it. We all agree on wanting to see fewer buyers scammed. The only thing we're trying to hash out is the better way to do it. Your contributions to this thread are a valuable addition to the discussion.

All the best,
Michael

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Hi Khemal,

That's the way things often happen. For what it's worth, I don't really think you have touched any nerves. Nobody seems to be taking anything personally and it is a worthy discussion.

May I make a freindly suggestion? If it's really that important to you, then don't bow out of the discussion.

I'm reminded of a saying a very wise man once shared with me...

There is no conflict resolution without conflict.

Here's the way I see it. We all agree on wanting to see fewer buyers scammed. The only thing we're trying to hash out is the better way to do it. Your contributions to this thread are a valuable addition to the discussion.

All the best,
Michael

Thanks Michael,

You're a wise man. I hope I run into more like you and walk away with more of you.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronakshah

<snip>We could have a community of reviewers who are themselves successful at selling top notch products in the WSO section.<snip>

That would simply open the floodgates for them to be more critical of their competitor's products. It would be WAY too open for abuse. Even if they weren't aware they were doing it, their reviews would be even more subjective than normal.

If anything, you would want people reviewing (I don't want that, but just for example) offers that promise to NEVER sell anything here at all. They can't have a dog in the fight.

All the best,
Michael

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Ronak Shah

14 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

If I were to buy a WSO, this is what I would do.

1. Look to see how long the person has been a member.

2. Look to see how many WSOs they've already run.

3. Look to see how many posts they have.

4. Look to see how many thank yous they have for their posts.

5. Look to see if they are using a REAL name.

6. Look them up at Google to see if I can find any info about them.

7. Look to see if they have an established web site and how long they've
had it.

8. Wait until the WSO itself has been run long enough to see if there is
any negative feedback. I don't care about positive feedback because
most people just can't be bothered to leave it. But if somebody doesn't
get delivery on something, they'll complain.

That's what I would do.

Take a guess as to how many WSOs I actually buy.

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Steven Fullman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

If I were to buy a WSO, this is what I would do.

1. Look to see how long the person has been a member.

2. Look to see how many WSOs they've already run.

3. Look to see how many posts they have.

4. Look to see how many thank yous they have for their posts.

5. Look to see if they are using a REAL name.

6. Look them up at Google to see if I can find any info about them.

7. Look to see if they have an established web site and how long they've
had it.

8. Wait until the WSO itself has been run long enough to see if there is
any negative feedback. I don't care about positive feedback because
most people just can't be bothered to leave it. But if somebody doesn't
get delivery on something, they'll complain.

That's what I would do.

Take a guess as to how many WSOs I actually buy.

Crikey, Steve...for a $7 WSO...I admire your principles!

Everyone else,

All this political correctness is doing my head in...all the talk of escrow, buyer-assurance...and all that nonsense.

Since when did it become "seller beware"?

You either want to pay for, and receive, the offer -- or you don't.

Seems perfectly boolean to me...and it's MY choice...it's not the forum's choice. Unless, of course, Allen himself disapproves. But that seems rare.

Cheers,
Steve

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Ronak Shah

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

That would simply open the floodgates for them to be more critical of their competitor's products. It would be WAY too open for abuse. Even if they weren't aware they were doing it, their reviews would be even more subjective than normal.

If anything, you would want people reviewing (I don't want that, but just for example) offers that promise to NEVER sell anything here at all. They can't have a dog in the fight.

All the best,
Michael

BUT that would definitely remove all scammers no matter what!

Look reviewers can be based on certain criteria's such as post count, thanked by other warriors, the number of WSO's they have successfully run through, reputation...

Honestly, there are comment raters on blogs so why not have a rating system in place by say 20 reviewers.. that would mean a lot to all the warriors and let me tell you.. just because you're a competitor and you're posting a bias review I would say people will catch you as there would be many reviewers not just a single one..

Look, the good ones always survive and the bad ones scammers especially will fall when we have this review system in place! Original ideas will be encouraged and we will avoid picking up the same ****... and the WSO section will become more popular!

Honestly people here feel they can't do many things.. but they never count on themselves what they can do to protect themselves! that sounds very amusing to me when it comes from my best buddies who I count to be really confident!

If NOT today, tomorrow Allen will take measures to stop scammers from posting fake WSO's as it is a regular problem. Take it up now your self or leave it for Allen and you may start screaming that it's all over for you to open another WSO lols'

Protect your self now or be one of the victims! Your call!

BYE

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Lance K

14 years ago

Ok, so I slapped together a PDF file with some tips to help keep people from being ripped off. It's rough, but it's a start. I've attached it at the bottom of this post.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

Ok, so I slapped together a PDF file with some tips to help keep people from being ripped off. It's rough, but it's a start. I've attached it at the bottom of this post.

That's good stuff Lance! Thanks for being proactive!

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

Ok, so I slapped together a PDF file with some tips to help keep people from being ripped off. It's rough, but it's a start. I've attached it at the bottom of this post.

Dang, did you just slap that together JUST NOW?

Tina

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Lance K 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Dang, did you just slap that together JUST NOW?

Tina

Yes, but it took about a half hour. I said slapped because I had to step out and didn't want to wait to post it. So I didn't put as much polish on it as I might have otherwise.
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kirilah 14 years ago

I am a real newbie here and to IM.

It is great that this is a great community with such passion.

It has been stated before but common sense helps and is in short supply nowadays. I have been reviewing some threads (research and learning how to get around the WF) and have seen some product reviews that were 3 pages long.

The overwhelming thing to me was that people were actually disregarding the numerous bad reviews and were waiting for one good review and then said they were going to buy it to try it out.

My conclusion is that some people want help but can't help themselves even with great people helping them.

I wish you luck Khemal. A scam free forum would be nice.
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MAtkins

14 years ago

God knows I've wasted a *lot* of money here.
Also, I notice some 'free' War Room software is 'computer pirate' software (that is, it takes over your computer for you).
It'd be nice to find a way to be able to trust the free offers here, especially in the War room.

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Orator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MAtkins

God knows I've wasted a *lot* of money here.
Also, I notice some 'free' War Room software is 'computer pirate' software (that is, it takes over your computer for you).
It'd be nice to find a way to be able to trust the free offers here, especially in the War room.

Accusation without substance is dangerous. I've never seen anything like in the war room.

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

It would be nice for buyers to be able to post feedback at one place collectively so that potential buyers don't have to rely on the seller consolidating the reviews/feedback.

Common sense needs to prevail. If I can help steer a new person in the right direction, I will do that but I don't think it's anyone's job on this forum to play big brother to them, either. To paraphrase Paul Myers, the world is full of sharp corners and hard things. You can't protect people from all of them and I think it would be a bad thing if you could. That's how people learn.

Originally Posted by MAtkins

God knows I've wasted a *lot* of money here.
Also, I notice some 'free' War Room software is 'computer pirate' software (that is, it takes over your computer for you).
It'd be nice to find a way to be able to trust the free offers here, especially in the War room.

If that is the case, you need to report it to either of the two mods in the War Room. I know one is Rod Cortez but I can't think of who the other one is at the moment. You can also post in that thread to notify others.

Tina

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Steven Carl Kelly

14 years ago

A review board would certainly ensure that your next WSO posting would be made live within 90-120 days due to volume.

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TheWealthSquad 14 years ago

When traveling in China several years ago, we bought a few very nice costume jewelry Rolex watches (code for FAKE) for about $18 a piece.

One of the guys came back and pawned his for $400. The pawn shop guy said he knew it was a fake but could easily sell it in less than a week for $800. The real version is a $2,000 watch.

Scams happen off line and on line.

Learning to be a Warrior is about getting some scars. Learning to watch before you leap. Using your head and your gut and common sense.

Most of the items sold in WSO's would not bear the added cost of an escrow service.

A nice feature would be to have a feedback system (something like eBay) where only purchasers could rank the people. Might be something that WSO Pro could look to add since transactions don't actually take place in the Forum but rather off site.

Think of WSO's like classifieds in the newspaper. They don't vet them, escrow them or certify them. You buy with Caveat Emptor (Buyer beware). If you get scammed you report them to the newspaper (The Forum moderators) and they remove the ad (WSO).

Seems we already have a pretty good system in place.

Maybe someone could offer a WSO on How to Buy a WSO and they could make it a sticky one
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weezie

14 years ago

Hi there

I'm a newbie that got scammed. It's fine to say buyer beware - but as a newbie - I had no way of knowing if this guy was legit or not - we communicated several times before I made the purchase, he was quick to respond. Others didn't even have the courtesy to respond to emails. He had several posts. I assumed because I was purchasing a higher priced product that I was getting better quality, to me something priced at $37 with all kinds of claims seems more like too good to be true than something priced at $207 (which is what I lost here).

I think an escrow account would be hard to manage - but in the future - for a higher ticket item - I would negotiate a down payment - then balance upon delivery.

It would be nice to be able to post their business names in a thread called scammers - as I've gone to another one of this guys sites - and he's advertising a WSO there. Or even putting scam across his post would be effective.

Thanks

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IM Ash

14 years ago

I think your concerns are noble but the resources to police every WSO will certainly be costly.

Case in point: I always see scam offers advertised in the Classifieds of our local newspaper. In the begining my belief was that the management of this Newspaper weren't doing enough to curtail these underhanded activities, but the truth is that in order for them to to take a stance toward these individual they will have to invest resources toward it.

This means setting up an entire team (depending on the size of the organization) to do background checks on every suspicious looking advert placed in the classified section. Which will be time consuming and result in an inefficient service, mainly due to possible delays that certain classifieds will have to undergo.

What is the solution? The newspaper has a big bold warning on every page that warns people about potential scammers and what the reader should look out for to avoid scams.

And if a person has been scammed they can report the ad publisher. Problem Solved! Money Saved!

The onus is on the buyer to be cautious!

Thanks

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

There's already a perfectly good system in place. It's called comments on the WSOs. People rarely ever use it and people rarely ever read the thread to see what the comments say. I recently saw a WSO going down in flames with negative reviews and then in comes two more people who said "Looks good ... Is this still available?"

Sorry, but I don't have sympathy for those who don't take personal responsibility for their purchases and for those who don't do any due diligence. If you have a legitimate problem with a WSO, leave feedback ... but it better be legitimate.

And don't forget to read the comments that are already there. If you've honestly been scammed ... and I've seen a couple such cases ... leave a support ticket and that person's WSO gets shut down and they are banned.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

There's already a perfectly good system in place. It's called comments on the WSOs. People rarely ever use it and people rarely ever read the thread to see what the comments say. I recently saw a WSO going down in flames with negative reviews and then in comes two more people who said "Looks good ... Is this still available?"

Thanks. So better education / awareness. Good. Now you're talking. How can we increase visibility and awareness of

a) The existence of said Comments section?
b) Scam proof WSO buying guide?
c) The need for buyers to post Comments in said section?

Thanks

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NicheMayhem 14 years ago

I agree with the system in place being the best bet. Many people (newbies) also come in and buy a legitimate way to build their business, spend 10 minutes reading and then say they got scammed. The big problem in the IM industry is that it is full of information sellers and the majority of their customers do not put much effort into learning and actually implementing the information they have bought. They can read a hundred times that there is no easy button and it is impossible to get rich by making a purchase but yet they still turn around and go looking for it falling into the same pitfalls time and time again. So here it is the real quote, the one which really explains the issue here...

You can't fix stupid ~Ron White

Don't be stupid, use your common sense and take the time to find out about who you are buying from, if you get ripped off take the time to leave a review saying so right where it matters as well as report it to the MODs. If you can't be bothered to do any of those things then keep your mouth shut and move on with a watchful eye the next time you decide to buy.

A review section for each individual Warrior will be manipulated by Warriors no doubt about it. Too many people in here get their panties (not just females) twisted in a knot over some silly little argument and then hold a grudge forever waiting for an opportunity to hijack a thread and badmouth the person they have a beef with over some technicality. No it is not a preschool but many here act as though they are preschoolers.

The only thing I have seen in having viewed a few of these conversations, since they tend to keep coming up, is a verification system. A bit like being Paypal verified but getting a WF seal of verification through phone or home address. This though adds in the effort of mods and Allen who already put in more effort then any of us deserve so the way I see it:

Due diligence and buyer beware is the best option from all angles.

...and to the OP, remember that there are thousands of pages of threads on this forum translating into hundreds of thousands of posts. It is absolutely massive, you really think this is the first time this was discussed?
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Khemal

14 years ago

I know that there are Star ratings that can be assigned to a WSO thread. Would it make senese to have the opposite and have some sort of negative feedback score / Black Stars etc to indicate a bad review. So basically Gold stars for good and Black/Red Stars for bad. Side by side maybe?

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

I know that there are Star ratings that can be assigned to a WSO thread. Would it make senese to have the opposite and have some sort of negative feedback score / Black Stars etc to indicate a bad review. So basically Gold stars for good and Black/Red Stars for bad. Side by side maybe?

Of course it would not make sense. Every member with a grudge and every competitor would leave black stars.

The system in place works fine if you actually use it. The best defense against buying crap is to use common sense. Read the thread after the WSO has been live for at least 2 weeks. If it sounds too good to be true ... it is. Don't fall for unsubstantiated income claims. It's all just common sense.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Of course it would not make sense. Every member with a grudge and every competitor would leave black stars.

The system in place works fine if you actually use it. The best defense against buying crap is to use common sense. Read the thread after the WSO has been live for at least 2 weeks. If it sounds too good to be true ... it is. Don't fall for unsubstantiated income claims. It's all just common sense.

I didn't mean just ANY one be able to leave negative feedback. That would be stupid. I meant if there was a way for only buyers of that particular item to leave feedback.

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Johnny Slater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

I didn't mean just ANY one be able to leave negative feedback. That would be stupid. I meant if there was a way for only buyers of that particular item to leave feedback.

It looks like you have been a member here for 7 years. In that time you should know already that rating systems have been discussed to death and have been constantly proven to be a bad idea and that it has been said several times that they will not be put into place here.

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NicheMayhem

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

I didn't mean just ANY one be able to leave negative feedback. That would be stupid. I meant if there was a way for only buyers of that particular item to leave feedback.

That still leaves room for competitors to buy just to leave negative feedback. Even to register ten profiles and buy ten times to leave ten negative reviews which would completely destroy any WSO.

For every positive there are a few negatives, reality as usual...sucks.

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Dennis Gaskill 14 years ago

This forum makes a ton of money for Allen and for many, many others. A great many people have built successful businesses with what they have learned here, and countless others have improved an existing business because of this forum. Allen has been running it for what, 10 years now? Some of the mods have been here nearly as long. And yet, someone is always trying to tell them how to run it better.

Maybe we should just give them credit for knowing what they're doing and stop trying to make them responsible for our own decisions.
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Jason Moffatt

14 years ago

I've never been ripped off by a Warrior (in a WSO).

At some point I think the fault has to be on the buyer for making poor buying decisions.

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DrewClement 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

I've never been ripped off by a Warrior (in a WSO).

At some point I think the fault has to be on the buyer for making poor buying decisions.

Exactly.

Simple, short, straight to the point.

Scams are everywhere, always will be. You have to take care of yourself..cuz other people arent always going to be there to do it for you.

Do you buy a used car without kicking the tires?
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GrantFreeman

14 years ago

Here's something I did quick. Hope it's a good solution that works for everyone.

There's lots of good ideas in this thread, but some put more responsibility on the mods and Allen when they don't exactly need to be there. I mean, how many times can you tell someone to read the rules?

Some will, some will ignore them, no matter how many people tell them to read them.

This popup would appear only once per member upon entering the WSO section. Or it can be set by the mods with a click to show to participants that were previously in a WSO that went south. It can be used in many different ways.

Grant

PS/Edit: Create a link to the PDF Lance K just made somewhere in this popup. Just another idea to achieve a win win for buyer and seller.

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Winlin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GrantFreeman

Here's something I did quick. Hope it's a good solution that works for everyone.

This popup would appear only once per member. Or it can be set by the mods with a click to show to participants that were previously in a WSO that went south. It can be used in many different ways.

Grant

I absolutely "Love It" I wanted to accept on the spot... this is perfect.

"Great Idea, Grant" - Winlin

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GrantFreeman 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Winlin

I absolutely "Love It" I wanted to accept on the spot... this is perfect.

"Great Idea, Grant" - Winlin

Glad you liked the idea. Did you notice there isn't a "cancel" button?

Grant
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Bradshaw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GrantFreeman

Here's something I did quick. Hope it's a good solution that works for everyone.

There's lots of good ideas in this thread, but some put more responsibility on the mods and Allen when they don't exactly need to be there. I mean, how many times can you tell someone to read the rules?

Some will, some will ignore them, no matter how many people tell them to read them.

This popup would appear only once per member upon entering the WSO section. Or it can be set by the mods with a click to show to participants that were previously in a WSO that went south. It can be used in many different ways.

Grant

PS/Edit: Create a link to the PDF Lance K just made somewhere in this popup. Just another idea to achieve a win win for buyer and seller.

Holy crap. Excellent advice. Someone give this man a medal please.

Thanks

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GrantFreeman

Here's something I did quick. Hope it's a good solution that works for everyone.

There's lots of good ideas in this thread, but some put more responsibility on the mods and Allen when they don't exactly need to be there. I mean, how many times can you tell someone to read the rules?

Some will, some will ignore them, no matter how many people tell them to read them.

This popup would appear only once per member upon entering the WSO section. Or it can be set by the mods with a click to show to participants that were previously in a WSO that went south. It can be used in many different ways.

Grant

PS/Edit: Create a link to the PDF Lance K just made somewhere in this popup. Just another idea to achieve a win win for buyer and seller.

Wow! Thanks Grant. That's awesome. Many have replied and few have actually DONE something. Thank you for this. Even if it saves as a warning to ONE newbie, then it's worth it.

Thanks

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Stephen @ ClickMonkey

14 years ago

Two quick thoughts.

1) Digital product sellers who are able to do so can consider using ClickBank to process payments for product sales made in the WSO section of the forum. That way buyers are given a quick and easy way to get a refund for any reason. Not only will this set you apart from everyone else, but you are essentially creating a situation where buyers can buy, download, and get an instant refund if they want.

2) Service providers can consider just doing all the work first, providing it to the customer, and then letting the customer decide if a payment should take place. It's practically impossible for a buyer to get "scammed" in a situation like this. They'll have the chance to evaluate the work that was done prior to paying. What buyer would say no to an arrangement like that?

This isn't workable for every seller, but it's something to consider.

Thanks
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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Stephen @ ClickMonkey

2) Service providers can consider just doing all the work first, providing it to the customer, and then letting the customer decide if a payment should take place. It's practically impossible for a buyer to get "scammed" in a situation like this. They'll have the chance to evaluate the work that was done prior to paying. What buyer would say no to an arrangement like that?

This isn't workable for every seller, but it's something to consider.

Are you really, really, really serious. Sellers should bust their ass creating products so that every freebie seeker in town can download it and then pay for it if they feel like it. Right.

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Stephen @ ClickMonkey

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Are you really, really, really serious. Sellers should bust their ass creating products so that every freebie seeker in town can download it and then pay for it if they feel like it. Right.

Hi Suzanne!

I can totally relate to where you're coming from. It's not workable for every service seller, or every situation. I had a lot of doubts about designing an article writing service where the customer would pay nothing upfront and would get the articles they ordered while still maintaining the ability to cancel their scheduled payment. But in an effort to make it as risk-free as possible for someone to order articles from the service, that's how it was setup. I don't run the article service on a day-to-day basis anymore (but I do write and mail thank-you notes to as many new and old customers as I can every few weeks). This no-payment-upfront system also helps me sleep a little bit better at night. If something really goes haywire, I know that a customer has the ability to put a stop to the scheduled payment until things are sorted out.

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Winlin

14 years ago

"Caveat Emptor"

Here are some suggestions:

#1) Use some common sense... If someone just joined and only has two posts don't buy from them.

#2) Unless I have read some good feedback from other members I only purchase offers that can be paid for through pay-pal... I have yet to ask for a refund from anyone, however it's nice to know I have that peace of mind.

#3) Everything everyone else has said.

On another note:

I was amazed the first time I realized brand new members could present offers and submit classifieds. It's kind of ironic that they are not able to send IM's to other members unless they have made 50 posts, yet they can make offers to take money from members... hmmmmm???

That said; I do not believe it's up to the forum to intervene in your purchasing decisions. I do believe if a bad apple is making bad deals then it's good business sense for Alan to get rid of them ASAP, after all they are affecting his "Brand"... that's his decision to make.

One more thought; Even though my opinions stand regarding the fact that it's entirely up to the ownership of the Forum to do as they see fit. I would think that the voice of the "Slave Warriors" who are happily giving their time to self moderate the forum should hold some weight and if enough of you rise together you may be able to overthrow the current regime... LOL, not likely this is a business not Democracy.

Recap: Use your head -> cover your butt -> Don't expect someone else to monitor or police your business decisions-> Remember this is a business, not a Democracy.

"Just my humble opinion" - Winlin

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CJ.Online

14 years ago

I think that there should be restrictions on being able to PM newbies, because I know for a fact that most of the scamming goes on behind the scenes in private messages.

If newbies were required to make like 100 posts or so, before they could receive private messages, then if they were being scammed in a thread, it would immediately get pointed out.

Just my suggestion though

Thanks
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CJ.Online

I think that there should be restrictions on being able to PM newbies, because I know for a fact that most of the scamming goes on behind the scenes in private messages.

If newbies were required to make like 100 posts or so, before they could receive private messages, then if they were being scammed in a thread, it would immediately get pointed out.

Just my suggestion though

Hi CJ,

Out of curiosity, how do you know this? With all due respect, the only way you could really know is if you could read every PM and view every WSO and read all other correspondence between buyers and sellers.

Other than that, I'm not sure how you could state something like that as fact. For the record, I have NEVER received any PM like you describe, yet I'm not going to say "I know for a fact that no scams are ever perpetuated through PMs."

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk here, just wondering what type of proof you have for such a bold claim. Because for all I know, you could be right.

All the best,
Michael

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Orator

14 years ago

A big pool of interesting suggestions.

I guess I'm just curious how far are people willing to go to save the stupid from loosing their money?

I mean where exactly does it stop? The current system functions on common sense, and I think that is the best approach in the long run. Adding layers, and layers of protections is a great way to help kill business on this forum.

Besides that.

Allen knows more about IM and business in his little pinkie then I do. If the security needed to be upgraded, then I think he would have done it a long time ago.

Thanks
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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Orator

A big pool of interesting suggestions.

I guess I'm just curious how far are people willing to go to save the stupid from loosing their money?

I mean where exactly does it stop? The current system functions on common sense, and I think that is the best approach in the long run. Adding layers, and layers of protections is a great way to help kill business on this forum.

Besides that.

Allen knows more about IM and business in his little pinkie then I do. If the security needed to be upgraded, then I think he would have done it a long time ago.

So if someone's the victim of a scam and loses money, they are Stupid, Orator? Seriously? There's a lot of talk about "Common Sense" so where's your Common Decency when you call people stupid when they fall victim to a scam?

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mattjay

14 years ago

here are my thoughts...after a number of wsos that i bought just because i'm a sucker for a good sales letter, i found that a lot of them were crap. some of them i requested my money back most i didn't. i invested in two coaching programs. suprisingly the guy with the fewest post count actually gave me something of value, and he offered a refund policy. the site i got from him is actualy making a little cash, which is what he said it would do. The other guy with a high post count gave me very little, then i complained and he offered me a parital refund, then i said forget it lets move forward with something else, then he disappeared, then i asked him again for the partial refund, and he declined, and said he would help, now he doesn't respond to my emails LOL
i went through a stage a few months back where i thought all i needed to do to make money was spend on enough high ticket items and it would happen. there's a guy who offered a wso here about google ranks. I actually used it to rank two seo clients of my own whoare still with me; but when i bought his business in a box, i got screwed. about a month ago i fell for a good sales letter again for websites. and got screwed.

i'd have to agree with most of the posts on this thread, even the ones that seem harsh. Ultimately i was responsiblle for handing the money to the people i did. had i done more research, or not acted impulsivley, i would still have my money. there are alot of service providers and things i've bought on the WF that have provided real value to me and i'm greatful. i think the safest thing to do is to follow the advice of those here on the thread, to really make as an informed decision as possiblle, even on the little buys, and especially on the large ones. i think that starting escrow would just complicate things. if i had a little more common sense and acted a little smarter, i would still have all the money i got taken from me. i dont blame anyone but myself. needless to say over the last few i have been a little more cautious.
i wish everyone the best on WF and hope they don't get scammed. it sucks that there are scammers but there always will be.

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InternetSuccess001

14 years ago

I'd say unfortunately right now, unless it is outright 'scamming'

i.e., not delivering anything once payment was received,
delivering something entirely different -- i.e., you ask for a book on apples and instead get a book on real estate sent to you)
or simply stealing someone elses product and passing it off as your own

Then it is very difficult, because the 'quality' of a WSO is highly subjective. What might be pure gold to someone who just bought a computer yesterday might be considered 'scammy' by someone who has read 300 computer/marketing books, and been online since the 70's.

If it is one of the above three though, there are usually appropriate channels (i.e., paypal autorefund, etc).

J

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi Allen, Mods, Fellow Warriors,

I've been noticing a lot of incidents of fraud/scam in the WSO and Warrior Services forums lately. It saddens me that our community is being degraded by a few despicable individuals that dare to call themselves "warriors" while taking money from newbies and the innocent.

In this light, would it not make sense to incorporate an Escrow service into our forum so that buyers will have some level of protections and sellers can instill confidence?

What are your thoughts? How can we put a stop to scammers amongst us?

*** NOTE ***
It's been established that an escrow is NOT the answer to stop scammers. Please leave your alternate suggestions/ideas etc instead and lets see if we can put out heads together and come up with a PRACTICAL solution. Thank you!
*** END NOTE ***

Thanking you in advance,
Khemal

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Frank Donovan 14 years ago

Ooh...another "Let's fix the WSO Forum" thread. Is it Tuesday already? :rolleyes:

As others have pointed out, this matter has been rather extensively debated. Most experienced members agree that the current set-up is probably best. Yes, this does put the onus on buyers to perform a degree of due diligence, but there are some basic questions that many don't seem to be asking themselves.

For instance, how many times have we seen WSO complaints aired in the main forum that turned out to be regarding products offered by members who joined within the previous month or so. Further, it's usually the case that the only reviews (positive, obviously) of these products in the thread are from members who've also recently joined.

That should be ringing alarm bells for any prospective buyer. At the very least, such a situation merits a little more investigation, prior to purchase.

And to those complaining that it's unfair to penalize newer members - well, that's just diddums. The reputation of this forum - and the reason why it's become such a Mecca for IM peddlers - is largely down to the contributions and diligence of experienced Warriors over several years. I don't believe the WSO forum was ever intended as a resource for any Johnny-come-lately marketer to waltz in and immediately start to exploit this highly targeted demographic.

It can't be too much to ask that one should earn the right to that access by contributing to the community.

Frank
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kindsvater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi Allen, Mods, Fellow Warriors,

I've been noticing a lot of incidents of fraud/scam in the WSO and Warrior Services forums lately. It saddens me that our community is being degraded by a few despicable individuals that dare to call themselves "warriors" while taking money from newbies and the innocent.

90+ assumptive posts later, no one has bothered to ask - what frauds and scams are you referring to?

What is "a lot"?

Without knowing this basic information it is impossible to determine what, if anything, is needed to prevent the problem in the future.

Was a service or product paid for and not delivered?
Was a domain paid for and not delivered?
Did you think a WSO did not provide value?
Was a WSO ripped from someplace else?

Let me suggest this: in my opinion every WSO claiming that a certain amount of money can be made is a fraud. EVERY ONE.

Another tip: is it a REAL WSO, or is someone using the WSO board as their web host?

There's a big difference between someone with a real offer that is made to the public, with a real domain, with a special deal for Warriors, and some anonymous seller who only has a PayPal link on a forum page.

And it's not like you're just helpless. Oh whoa is me, I've been scammed.

Get a backbone and ask for a refund.

Whether a refund is given or not, then post a scathing review on the WSO thread so that others will be warned.

If it is a scam, and the payment method is probably PayPal, complain to PayPal. They will look into it.

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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

90+ assumptive posts later, no one has bothered to ask - what frauds and scams are you referring to?

What is "a lot"?

Without knowing this basic information it is impossible to determine what, if anything, is needed to prevent the problem in the future.

Was a service or product paid for and not delivered?
Was a domain paid for and not delivered?
Did you think a WSO did not provide value?
Was a WSO ripped from someplace else?

Let me suggest this: in my opinion every WSO claiming that a certain amount of money can be made is a fraud. EVERY ONE.

Another tip: is it a REAL WSO, or is someone using the WSO board as their web host?

There's a big difference between someone with a real offer that is made to the public, with a real domain, with a special deal for Warriors, and some anonymous seller who only has a PayPal link on a forum page.

And it's not like you're just helpless. Oh whoa is me, I've been scammed.

Get a backbone and ask for a refund.

Whether a refund is given or not, then post a scathing review on the WSO thread so that others will be warned.

If it is a scam, and the payment method is probably PayPal, complain to PayPal. They will look into it.

I'm talking about scams such as the following, written by a victim (or "the Stupid" as one Warrior calls them, to my disgust!) :

Originally Posted by weezie

Hi there

I'm a newbie that got scammed. It's fine to say buyer beware - but as a newbie - I had no way of knowing if this guy was legit or not - we communicated several times before I made the purchase, he was quick to respond. Others didn't even have the courtesy to respond to emails. He had several posts. I assumed because I was purchasing a higher priced product that I was getting better quality, to me something priced at $37 with all kinds of claims seems more like too good to be true than something priced at $207 (which is what I lost here).

I think an escrow account would be hard to manage - but in the future - for a higher ticket item - I would negotiate a down payment - then balance upon delivery.

It would be nice to be able to post their business names in a thread called scammers - as I've gone to another one of this guys sites - and he's advertising a WSO there. Or even putting scam across his post would be effective.

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BrainCopy

14 years ago

Why not put a limit on the post count?

It only takes a little bit of posting in order to post a WSO. So why not not put a 25 day restraint with a minimum of 150-200 posts per new member? These scammers are lazy, they wouldn't want to wait that long just to make a few bucks... I know I wouldn't

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Anthony La Tour

Why not put a limit on the post count?

It only takes a little bit of posting in order to post a WSO. So why not not put a 25 day restraint with a minimum of 150-200 posts per new member? These scammers are lazy, they wouldn't want to wait that long just to make a few bucks... I know I wouldn't

Anthony, they'd outsource their posts to someone for pennies per post and could easily be fully qualified in your 25 day restraining period even if 500 posts were required.

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TheAnnoyingOrange

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi Allen, Mods, Fellow Warriors,

I've been noticing a lot of incidents of fraud/scam in the WSO and Warrior Services forums lately. It saddens me that our community is being degraded by a few despicable individuals that dare to call themselves "warriors" while taking money from newbies and the innocent.

In this light, would it not make sense to incorporate an Escrow service into our forum so that buyers will have some level of protections and sellers can instill confidence?

What are your thoughts? How can we put a stop to scammers amongst us?

*** NOTE ***
It's been established that an escrow is NOT the answer to stop scammers. Please leave your alternate suggestions/ideas etc instead and lets see if we can put out heads together and come up with a PRACTICAL solution. Thank you!
*** END NOTE ***

Thanking you in advance,
Khemal

The only thing that came into mind straight away was to restrict the selling of WSO's from members who have a certain post count or amount of thanks from members of this community.

Post Count: Most people think that they could just spam and leave comments only to raise their post count - the members on this forum should already be looking out for this and report this behavior so the "scammer" would be banned.

Number of thanks: This will build up credibility for the person selling WSO's and shows that they have actually given some very helpful advice for free and helped members and this should be a good justification as to why they should be allowed to sell WSO's (not to mention they would be more likely to sell good WSO's and not rip off people).

Better yet, just restrict the selling of WSO's to members who have been active to the community for less then a certain number of months eg. 6 or 8.
Let me know what you think.

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Orator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TheAnnoyingOrange

The only thing that came into mind straight away was to restrict the selling of WSO's from members who have a certain post count or amount of thanks from members of this community.

Post Count: Most people think that they could just spam and leave comments only to raise their post count - the members on this forum should already be looking out for this and report this behavior so the "scammer" would be banned.

Number of thanks: This will build up credibility for the person selling WSO's and shows that they have actually given some very helpful advice for free and helped members and this should be a good justification as to why they should be allowed to sell WSO's (not to mention they would be more likely to sell good WSO's and not rip off people).

Better yet, just restrict the selling of WSO's to members who have been active to the community for less then a certain number of months eg. 6 or 8.
Let me know what you think.

With all due respect, this seems like a punishment for newer members who are contributing to the community, but also having something legitimate to offer in the form of a WSO.

All you have to do is search a persons comment history to get a sense of what they stand for. Why should we make the process harder?

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Orator

With all due respect, this seems like a punishment for newer members who are contributing to the community, but also having something legitimate to offer in the form of a WSO.

All you have to do is search a persons comment history to get a sense of what they stand for. Why should we make the process harder?

Sorry ... don't agree at all. I think that a smart shopper will stay completely away from someone selling something that hasn't bothered to contribute to the forum and build a reputation. Perhaps a random newbie here and there has something valuable to offer, but they aren't getting my money. I don't buy from the WSO forum. I buy from signatures of people I respect and they've built that trust by being a valuable member of the forum.

That's marketing 101 and some people will never get that. They think they can come here, drop an ad and make bank. They use anonymous screen names and do nothing to let people know who they are and what they're about. That does not instill trust and you don't get trust unless you earn it.

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Orator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Sorry ... don't agree at all. I think that a smart shopper will stay completely away from someone selling something that hasn't bothered to contribute to the forum and build a reputation. Perhaps a random newbie here and there has something valuable to offer, but they aren't getting my money. I don't buy from the WSO forum. I buy from signatures of people I respect and they've built that trust by being a valuable member of the forum.

That's marketing 101 and some people will never get that. They think they can come here, drop an ad and make bank. They use anonymous screen names and do nothing to let people know who they are and what they're about. That does not instill trust and you don't get trust unless you earn it.

A sensible policy, and one I can see the advantages to. Everyone has their own criteria for what they consider an acceptable buying standard.

I think that if someone is confident enough in their own product, and if it's really valuable to a cautious buyer. Then its own value will filter back to them through word of mouth here.

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BillTamworth

Banned 14 years ago

something does need to be put in place

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Joseph Then 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BillTamworth

something does need to be put in place

Yes, that something is nothing.
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ileneg

14 years ago

We sort of just had this conversation:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...fer-forum.html

ileneg

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sanssecret 14 years ago

Every genuine member of this forum already helps to stop the scammers (I hope), by reporting them to the mods. We have great mods and we have a great forum. What exactly is broken that needs fixing?

I appreciate the sentiments expressed here, but I've pretty much given up the ghost on trying to get folks to do what I might think is right. People will do whatever they want to do, regardless of how many times you tell them it's wrong, or point out a better way.

Experience is a hard teacher, but you know what, life is tough out there so why make it easy in here? If you do, aren't you just setting them up for possibly an even bigger fall when they venture out into the world wide web away from the safety net of the WF?

Ok, I'm reading that back and it sounds a lot harsher than I mean it to. But there's too much subjectivity in what's defined as a scam. I've bought WSO's I thought were rubbish yet I've seen far more experienced folks than me say they were great. Does that mean I was scammed and all those other folks were in on it? Of course not. Just means it was rubbish for me.

Let people be accountable for their own actions. Not sure but I think it was Suzanne who mentioned how you can see a WSO with a whole load of bad reviews and then someone still asking if it's still available? Nothing you can do for those folks short of not allowing them to buy WSO's. Maybe that's it - just ban folks from buying WSO's unless they've been a member for a minimum time? :p
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flocon

14 years ago

I agree with you. For newbies, I think it is quite easy to fall for the sales letter. And even if you were to base your decision on the number of thanks received by the person, I would not see it as an infallible way to find the best sellers. I personally found a vendor that had a lot of thanks but the product did not deliver.

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMarketingSys

Yes I have to agree with Steven 100% and he's been around the forum for as long as I have if not longer. Any sales listing is manually reviewed before going live (is that to say 1% that shouldn't be approved, don't get through .. NO) but its a pretty good number.

Just in case anyone got the wrong idea from this paragraph, the moderators do not review the WSO products. They check the copy to try to make sure there aren't any slipping in that are against the rules. To my knowledge, the only thing manually reviewed is the WSO copy so just because you see it in the forum, does not mean that a moderator has approved or even seen the product.

Tina

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Tina,

Just in case anyone got the wrong idea from this paragraph, the moderators do not review the WSO products.

Most of us don't have anything to do with approving WSOs. That is, as far as I know, done by one person. (Not me.)

If you see someone claiming that a WSO has been moderator approved, ask them which one. It's almost always an inaccurate claim. For example, people will sometimes ask me if XYZ factors are okay in a WSO, and then claim I've approved the offer. That's not close to accurate.

The phrase "WSO of the Day" is also not a sign of official approval by Allen or any of the moderators. It basically means "This sells well and the seller has agreed to the WSOTD terms with Mike Lantz." It doesn't mean the product is good or bad, and it's certainly not a WF certification.

Paul
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jlucado

14 years ago

If the "preyed upon noobs" have not yet learned a very basic premise of online marketing, that is,

Know, Like and Trust

before they buy, then Heaven help them.

This forum cannot!

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bizmarketingguru

14 years ago

Hi All!

Interesting thread.

So let me add my dime's worth:

What is the solution for someone who has got some positive feedback(that offers services to felow warriors) but after the warrior pays in advance for that particular service the service provider ends up not delivering the service as promised?

By the way,my question has nothing to do with the purchase of WSOs.Here I always use the "buyer beware approach" and regardless where the offer is being promoted.

Also,to suggest that a newbie with a few posts or using a username rather than real name is more inclined to be crooked is with my deepest respect both totally absurd and extremely offensive.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

Also,to suggest that a newbie with a few posts or using a username rather than real name is more inclined to be crooked is with my deepest respect both totally absurd and extremely offensive.

Sorry you feel that way, but here is the reality.

I would NOT, at this present time anyway, purchase a WSO from you if
you were running one.

You've been here since June and have contributed very little to this
community. In short, I don't know you from Adam and you've yet to earn
any trust.

That is the reality whether you like it or not.

This is not a comment about your personally. As I said, I don't know you
from Adam.

And THAT is the problem.

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bizmarketingguru

14 years ago

Steven,

Thank you for your comments and I do not take anything personally.

What do you define as contribution?

Because at this particular moment in time,I have nothing to offer this community because I am learning,purchasing products and hiring people(outsourcing as you call it in the trade) to build my online presence.
Frankly I have had several very smooth transactions both services and WSOs with the exception of the scanario that I have highlghted in my previous post.

So anyone with a product or a service could benefit from me being on this forum.So do you not consider a very serious buyer of products and services a bona fide contributor?

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Also,to suggest that a newbie with a few posts or using a username rather than real name is more inclined to be crooked is with my deepest respect both totally absurd and extremely offensive.

And, given that "bizmarketingguru" is a fictional non-entity, why should we care about your opinion?

Even if you had a provable identity attached to it, I would treat that comment with the same lack of concern. It's a clear sign that you don't know how things work here (or pretty much anywhere else online), and opinions based on nothing are not significant to anyone but the person holding them.

If you're not selling anything and you're not engaging in destructive behavior, we don't care if you don't use a real name. If you want to remain anonymous, that's your business. Just as it's our business to consider that factor in light of the past actions of such people in this forum.

If you wish to argue the facts with me, feel free. Before you do, consider that I joined in 97 or 98, started as a moderator here in August of 1999, and was the one who approved the concept (suggested by Teresa King) and developed the original standards for a Warrior special offer.

In short, I have some experience on which to base my opinions.

Paul

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I would NOT, at this present time anyway, purchase a WSO from you if
you were running one.

You've been here since June and have contributed very little to this
community. In short, I don't know you from Adam and you've yet to earn
any trust.

That is the reality whether you like it or not.

Here's something to add to that. If I go apply for a job, do I bring a resume with me? Hell yes. I need to prove who I am, and provide numbers to call so the employer can learn about me.

Why is this any different online? You need to prove who you are, what you have done, how you know what you know, etc.

Posting a WSO is no different. You are the employer, and the offer you look to purchase is the employee looking for the job (wanting to get paid for a product or service).

So, are you going to hire the guy with nothing on his resume but a really cheap price or the one with lots on his resume for more money?

These are everyday choices and decisions we make based on what we have to work with and what we are looking for.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

Hi All!

Interesting thread.

So let me add my dime's worth:

What is the solution for someone who has got some positive feedback(that offers services to felow warriors) but after the warrior pays in advance for that particular service the service provider ends up not delivering the service as promised?

By the way,my question has nothing to do with the purchase of WSOs.Here I always use the "buyer beware approach" and regardless where the offer is being promoted.

Also,to suggest that a newbie with a few posts or using a username rather than real name is more inclined to be crooked is with my deepest respect both totally absurd and extremely offensive.

If I paid for something that was not delivered, I would report it to the help desk. That's theft. Most of the stuff that people here are calling scams, aren't scams at all. It is hype, it is underdelivery, it is unbelievable claims ... all of which they are actually looking for in a product. They are attracted to that kind of product like moths to lightbulbs. They want gobs of quick, easy money. It's no wonder they are disappointed time after time, but that's all it really is ... disappointment.

No one said that new people are crooked. I said ... I won't touch their products with a ten foot pole. If they haven't done the time here and contributed and built up a reputation, there are plenty of sellers who have done that and they will get my money.

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talfighel

14 years ago

I have good solution.

Before anyone new can post here their WSO, why not let a few picked people here who have been in for a while check out the offer and see if it is really legit or not.

If it is then they can be approved, and if it is not, then just delete that WSO and move on to the next.

I see a lot of WSO with a lot of testimonials but this does not mean that they are real. Even if they are real, I had one guy email me telling me that he will post a good testimonial in my WSO without checking the offer or even the product itself. He also asked me to do the same for him which I have declined.

So just know that many of the WSO offers used by these scammers, their testimonials are not real or are not even legit.

Tal

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by talfighel

I have good solution.

Before anyone new can post here their WSO, why not let a few picked people here who have been in for a while check out the offer and see if it is really legit or not.

If it is then they can be approved, and if it is not, then just delete that WSO and move on to the next.

[/b]

So just know that many of the WSO offers used by these scammers, their testimonials are not real or are not even legit.

Tal

Who is going to review these WSO's all day?

Look, if someone is new to this forum but has a valid offer, it is their responsibility to "sell" their offer and themselves. If they've been busy all over the web then this should not be difficult. If they are "new" then it is their job to market themselves and get themselves out there. This is not really that difficult to do. Make some constructive posts, help people who don't expect it, and actually do some work. You want someone to review your work? Then network with them, and offer to do something to help them out.

If I'm looking at testimonials in the WSO's I'm looking at who is posting them. Some people here I know if they like something then it is probably good. I also look at the testimonial posters profile and see what level I think they're at.

If someone sees a new person with a new offer and can't be bothered to do their own investigating on if this is an investment (business risk) they should take, then honestly they probably need to spend some money to learn some valuable lessons. Not to mention, it's not rocket science to get your money back if you really feel jipped. Live and learn.

And who do I blame when the official warrior reviewer is wrong about something?

Do your homework. Learn to do due diligence, and stop looking to blame anyone for anything and don't expect everyone to hand you a shiny new pretty box that is perfect.

The cream will always rise to the top. It is up to everyone to make this work - don't put the burden on a few people.

"If you aren't part of the solution, then you are part of the problem."

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George Wright

14 years ago

And how could anyone "know" ahead of time if any particular offer is "Legit" or not. Impossible. The only way to tell this has already been repeated several times in this thread and in other countless, usless, "fix the WSO Forum" posts.

George Wright

Originally Posted by talfighel

I have good solution.

Before anyone new can post here their WSO, why not let a few picked people here who have been in for a while check out the offer and see if it is really legit or not.

If it is then they can be approved, and if it is not, then just delete that WSO and move on to the next.

I see a lot of WSO with a lot of testimonials but this does not mean that they are real. Even if they are real, I had one guy email me telling me that he will post a good testimonial in my WSO without checking the offer or even the product itself. He also asked me to do the same for him which I have declined.

So just know that many of the WSO offers used by these scammers, their testimonials are not real or are not even legit.

Tal

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NicheMayhem 14 years ago

You know...if nothing else it is always amusing to see little snippets of ridiculous opinions thrown into the mix of these threads. Also, it is a great way for reputations to be sewn for future reference in the WSO section for people like me who have a brain and research a seller. I haven't been here long but with what I have seen, you couldn't PAY me to be a moderator.

Jill said something that really wraps up the whole situation here...

I'm going to be lazy and not go get the exact quote but it was along the lines of:

"if a coffee shop down the street sells coffee cheaper then the one I just bought my coffee at, does that mean I got scammed or does that mean the coffee shop I was just in is better at marketing?"

With what some warriors have posted in this thread it would be safe to assume they would think they got scammed and the coffee shop should be shut down just because their own satisfaction is being taken into account.

This is a huge problem with how general beliefs and complete nonsense would take over rating systems and "better" ways to moderate the WSO section.

Paul Myers spells it out eloquently, uses his brain and within a few sentences posts up a perfectly good explanation but not two (or 3 or 4 or 5 or 20) posts later someone completely disregards the reality of the situation and only includes themselves personally.

As a whole this community relies HEAVILY on the rules in place and people who moderate it to be fair and just. Without it, this place would crumble into a ball of scamming and who has the bigger d**k or can type more, like many other forums STILL are.

Much thought and tons of real world experience has gone into the forum to be exactly as it is, not perfect but manageable.

In many marketplaces as a consumer you are completely on your own and will be better off to learn from your mistakes rather then pay for and wait for anything legal to right your wrong. Here, there is a system in place and you can easily share, rate and report anything you deem necessary. Those who sit in the seat of moderator will take prompt action to decipher what is up using their own common sense and do so with an on-going reputation here behind them which outshines yours and mine by ten fold put together.

Like I said before for every positive there is a negative, usually two or more negatives and the reality is...what is in place now is there for a reason and works based on 10 years plus of the Warrior Forum existing.

It is a big presumption to think you or I could just waltz in and do it better, yet as Paul said these threads and all the silly comments which barely relate and have no depth or substance will just keep pouring in regardless.

Reality is though, just go down the street next time because as luck would have it, you found out the coffee was cheaper :rolleyes:...BUT would if it tastes nasty? Variables, variables...hopefully a warrior will put up a little sign saying "hey, the coffee here tastes like pee" that way you can go pay the higher price for good tasting coffee.

DO YOU SEE HOW IT WORKS? It isn't rocket science BUT when used it is the BEST we got and works well!!

lol, am I long winded or what?
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Steve Peters Benn

14 years ago

Seriously - these type of threads are getting out of hand!

Any clever system you come up with either places a huge burden on Allen or allows scammers to game the system.

Here is an idea - instead of having escrow - use personal responsibility. If the WSO if from an unknown warrior promising thousands in hours - maybe don't buy?

If the product is no good - post in the thread and ask for a refund. Thus letting others know.

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

What is the solution for someone who has got some positive feedback(that offers services to felow warriors) but after the warrior pays in advance for that particular service the service provider ends up not delivering the service as promised?

If you paid and didn't get delivery, and the seller stops responding to you (making it fairly obvious you WON'T get delivery), this is what you do. Go back to the thread and post the details and ask for a refund. This warns other members. Report it to the Help Desk because if a pattern is seen or proven, that member will end up banned from offering their services here (at least under THAT name).

Originally Posted by talfighel

I see a lot of WSO with a lot of testimonials but this does not mean that they are real. Even if they are real, I had one guy email me telling me that he will post a good testimonial in my WSO without checking the offer or even the product itself. He also asked me to do the same for him which I have declined.

I hope that you reported that person to the Help Desk and forwarded them the PM? Or you can report PMs right from your account. There's someone who doesn't belong here.

Originally Posted by bizmarketingguru

Steven,
Because at this particular moment in time,I have nothing to offer this community because I am learning,purchasing products and hiring people(outsourcing as you call it in the trade) to build my online presence.
Frankly I have had several very smooth transactions both services and WSOs with the exception of the scanario that I have highlghted in my previous post.

But you aren't providing WSOs, are you? There are all sorts of ways to contribute but if you've only been buying and learning, what could you offer? It's when you are about to buy something from someone that you want to have some idea that they know what they are talking about.

Tina

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bizmarketingguru

14 years ago

Hi All!

Avenuegirl,

Perhaps you would like to shed some light on how you would deal with the scenario that had someone on this forum offering a service with positive feedback/testimonials but it turns out that the same person has scammed/underdelivered others in the past but this information is highlighted on other sites/forums?

This clearly means that the testimonials on this forum for this particular person and the associated service are at best questionable and at worst utter "phoney baloney".

So again this

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Perhaps you would like to shed some light on how you would deal with the scenario that had someone on this forum offering a service with positive feedback/testimonials but it turns out that the same person has scammed/underdelivered others in the past but this information is highlighted on other sites/forums?

I'm not Jill, but I can answer this one. You click on the little red triangle with the exclamation point in it, next to the original offer. You report the WSO, along with any links or proof, to the moderators. Then you let us handle it.

By the way... It's not always a good idea to believe everyone who claims something or someone isn't legit.

Paul

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Jill Carpenter 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I'm not Jill,

And you are probably relieved about that.
LOL - If anyone needs clarification on this, just look at the video proof.

By the way... It's not always a good idea to believe everyone who claims something or someone isn't legit.

Paul

This is very true, and something you realize even more when you spend some time dedicated to the topic of scams all together.

They charge a lot more for the same coffee at one place than another. Is the place that charges more scamming me? Or are they just better at marketing?

The important thing Paul mentions here is proof. Provide links to where you see what you see.

Before I buy things here, I do several things.

I look up the WSO poster if I'm unfamiliar with them. I look at their profile and see if there is additional information about them. I might look at their post count, how long they've been a member, if they've got any other sites on the web.

If you can grab another site they own, you can look at the backlinks on that site. This can give you some interesting information. IE - if someone has linked from an ezine article to the site you now might be able to have a good look at their whole articles account. You can look up the whois on their domains and see if the information is public. You can google their name and see if anything comes up. If they use an unusual screen name, try to google that too and see if there are any clues - such as that person using that name on another forum.

Writing styles differ - as I don't think anyone would ever mistake something I wrote as something Paul wrote. (LOL, if they ever do, I might need to change goals.) You can begin to figure out digital footprints and track someone. It's not an exact science - IE some people use the same usernames as others. You have to really dig into it.

I wait for others to buy and review first.
I might ask a lot of questions.

If I'm just not sure, I won't buy. If it's a couple of bucks and I'm willing to give the person a chance, I come back and leave a review for others to see.

No one is forcing me to buy anything. I do what I would do with any offline purchase. If I'm not familiar with the company or service, I go hunting for more information or I'll buy it and give it a try and share my experience with others.

If I'm not happy with something, I make sure everyone knows about it. lol
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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Paul, after that quick delete I figured someone would have already posted
"What happened to my post" by now?

They should know that breaking Rule #1 would have that effect on their post.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Michael,

Yep. Especially given that the proper way to handle this stuff is mentioned in this thread several times.

Paul
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R Hagel

14 years ago

Just a reminder of the forum rules that folks agreed to when they joined:

WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums - Forum Rules

In particular:

You understand, and agree that the Warrior Forum in no way controls, verifies, or endorses any of the information contained on or in the Warrior Forum service, including links, product offers, Warrior Special Offers, emails, private messages, public messages, or forum posts.

and

INDEMNITY. YOU HEREBY AGREE, AT YOUR EXPENSE, TO INDEMNIFY, DEFEND AND HOLD WARRIOR FORUM HARMLESS FROM AND AGAINST ANY LOSS, COST, DAMAGES, LIABILITY, ATTORNEY'S FEES AND/OR EXPENSE ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO (A) THIRD PARTY CLAIMS, ACTIONS OR ALLEGATIONS OF INFRINGEMENT BASED ON INFORMATION, DATA OR CONTENT YOU SUBMITTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICE, (B) ANY FRAUD OR MANIPULATION, OR OTHER BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT, BY YOU, OR (C) THIRD PARTY CLAIMS, ACTIONS OR ALLEGATIONS BROUGHT AGAINST WARRIOR FORUM ARISING OUT OF YOUR USE OF THE SERVICE OR SOFTWARE.

and

You are solely responsible for evaluating any offers and any similar products or services that might be available.

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John Hocking 14 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

Just a reminder of the forum rules that folks agreed to when they joined:

WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums - Forum Rules

I was thinking the same thing. Do you not remember the forum rules.

caveat emptor, quia ignorare non debuit quod jus alienum emit -

Let the purchaser beware, for he ought not to be ignorant of the nature of the property which he is buying from another party

I know I always search the forum for posts of WSO provider. I look for positive feedback on the current or past WSO offerings. I look for testimonials and refund promisies.

If I can not find anything, I tend to pass on the WSO.

If every WSO have to be verified, the time to get something approved and the cost would cripple the whole WSO system.
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

AHA!!!!

Who knows "alot [sic] about the legal system" now?

~M~

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Fermina

14 years ago

How about a "Middleman" where the moderators get the money and also the "products" andoversee the transaction the middleman give both of the agreed transaction

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Jill Carpenter 14 years ago

Originally Posted by dags

How about a "Middleman" where the moderators get the money and also the "products" andoversee the transaction the middleman give both of the agreed transaction

I don't want a baby sitter, and I don't want to pay more for my WSO's because some middle man has to take a cut.
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createyouwealth

14 years ago

I agree, I also have seen a lot of stories lately about fellow warriors being scammed by other so-called warriors. This most definitely needs to be stopped and I think that soon enough there will be some changes made if there is an increase of these stories popping up.

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by createyouwealth

I agree, I also have seen a lot of stories lately about fellow warriors being scammed by other so-called warriors. This most definitely needs to be stopped and I think that soon enough there will be some changes made if there is an increase of these stories popping up.

LOL, are you and I on the same Warrior Forum? I see very little in the way of a lot of Warriors being scammers.

Where are you reading all these stories? Is it all stories on one or two bad apples, or is it a lot of different stories on a lot of different threads? :confused:

Considering the number of people that are members, I think the percentage of incident is extremely low. JMO.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by createyouwealth

I agree, I also have seen a lot of stories lately about fellow warriors being scammed by other so-called warriors. This most definitely needs to be stopped and I think that soon enough there will be some changes made if there is an increase of these stories popping up.

Prove it!

.

.

~M~

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Did the mods really have to put that note in the OP's post? If they did, that is pretty dang lame, IMHO.

The reply function is your friend. If it there was something like editing out a personal attack or something fine, but c'mon.

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi Allen, Mods, Fellow Warriors,

I've been noticing a lot of incidents of fraud/scam in the WSO and Warrior Services forums lately. It saddens me that our community is being degraded by a few despicable individuals that dare to call themselves "warriors" while taking money from newbies and the innocent.

In this light, would it not make sense to incorporate an Escrow service into our forum so that buyers will have some level of protections and sellers can instill confidence?

What are your thoughts? How can we put a stop to scammers amongst us?

*** NOTE ***
It's been established that an escrow is NOT the answer to stop scammers. Please leave your alternate suggestions/ideas etc instead and lets see if we can put out heads together and come up with a PRACTICAL solution. Thank you!
*** END NOTE ***

Thanking you in advance,
Khemal

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Tom,

Did the mods really have to put that note in the OP's post? If they did, that is pretty dang lame, IMHO.

I believe Khemal added that himself, after realizing that his idea wasn't one that was going to fly.

Paul

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tom,I believe Khemal added that himself, after realizing that his idea wasn't one that was going to fly.

Paul

Really? It didn't read that way at all to me. Maybe he outsourced that note to Bangalore.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Tom,

I know I didn't do it, and very few of the other mods even want to let threads like this continue. I can't see any of them adding that comment.

Paul
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Khemal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Really? It didn't read that way at all to me. Maybe he outsourced that note to Bangalore.

LOL sorry about the typo. And no I didnt' outsource it to anyone. I wrote the note myself (see the reason for edit) since my idea of an escrow turned out to be too complicated and "over kill" for what it was meant to resolve. Thus the call for alternate solutions.

Sorry if it came out as if a mod posted the note.

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OnlineMarketingSys

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

LOL sorry about the typo. And no I didnt' outsource it to anyone. I wrote the note myself (see the reason for edit) since my idea of an escrow turned out to be too complicated and "over kill" for what it was meant to resolve. Thus the call for alternate solutions.

Well just for added benefit, I thought I should mention this before we start seeing 'Warrior Escrow service' threads start popping up in the WSO section.

I've see then problems that go along with this on another similar forum, when some individuals attempted to run an escrow type service. The main problem and one reason why Paypal and other companies will probably never take escrow services for small payments, is because of the low margins and time required to investigate, reply to messages and handle an escrow type service.

Now why did the Escrow system fail , well it started out with good intentions and the people running it only charged $1-2 per transaction or some minimal amount. But what happened was now they were taking in hundreds of dollars a day through their one account. And of course, they were chargebacks, phished paypal accounts,ect. So paypal took notice, and locked their account from paying out any money (they could only issue refunds). And if you know Paypal, you also know it can take months for them to make any decision.

So now you had sellers really upset because they were not getting paid and nothing could be done. So if you intend to run some escrow type system, be sure to run it by paypal first. And chances are they probably still won't give you permission.

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Epic Stephen

14 years ago

i dont know if it was said or not... i cant read 4 pages now... but i think a rating system can be good , to help a little the buyer... to decide if the seller is trustworthy , ratings are used in many big forums that uses services and stuff... and why not to work on WF too ?

Anyway have a good day everyone... and many sales

ZoomX

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Khemal

14 years ago

Hi All,

Since I started this thread I think I need to end this as well. I hope that no one takes this thread as a threat or direct assault on their lively hood if they are WSO sellers. My intention was to find a way to protect the newcommers from a FEW scammers and not make it hard for the rest of the warriors.

So the bottom line is:

Escrow - BAD / No Way / No Fly
Rating system - Maybe. Need some work perhaps.
Buyer beware warning - Implemented in the form of a pop up.

The answer that most left to my original question was -
"Buyer Beware. Use your common sense and research the Seller. Buy at your own risk."

I think we've learnt a lot here and I hope that the debate that was sparked might bring something positive to the forum. After all it IS a forum and as such it's good to have "discussions" like this. If this thread serves as a warning to future buyers then at least they can learn from it and know how to better research the sellers.

Thank you to everyone for your valuable contribution!

Have a blessed day,
Khemal

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemal

Hi All,

Since I started this thread I think I need to end this as well. I hope that no one takes this thread as a threat or direct assault on their lively hood if they are WSO sellers. My intention was to find a way to protect the newcommers from a FEW scammers and not make it hard for the rest of the warriors.

So the bottom line is:

Escrow - BAD / No Way / No Fly
Rating system - Maybe. Need some work perhaps.
Buyer beware warning - Implemented in the form of a pop up.

The answer that most left to my original question was -
"Buyer Beware. Use your common sense and research the Seller. Buy at your own risk."

I think we've learnt a lot here and I hope that the debate that was sparked might bring something positive to the forum. After all it IS a forum and as such it's good to have "discussions" like this. If this thread serves as a warning to future buyers then at least they can learn from it and know how to better research the sellers.

Thank you to everyone for your valuable contribution!

Have a blessed day,
Khemal

That is still the BEST answer. It motivates people to learn how to spot scams and do their own due diligence. That is a skill that's important to anybody who is serious about building a business.

As far as the pop up goes, I don't like it. Let's face it, a lot of sales are made at the emotional level. The buyer gets worked up to the point where they want to buy, then all of a sudden they see some reminder that, in effect, DISCOURAGES them from buying? I know it was meant well, but no thanks.

All the best,
Michael

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ambitichx

14 years ago

I agree Khemal, an escrow service will be a bad idea, I would like to see a more robust rating/grading platform

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ambitichx

I agree Khemal, an escrow service will be a great addition

Obviously you didn't read the post.
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Lance K

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TPFLegionaire

Hope this clarify things...Maybe I could just put together a list of checks one can conduct and post it here...I'll see...got to get a few other things done now.

I put together a PDF with such a list and posted it earlier in this thread (Post #58 as of now). You can find it here. I'd be glad to add any additional steps you used, if you're interested.

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"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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TPFLegionaire

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

I put together a PDF with such a list and posted it earlier in this thread (Post #58 as of now). You can find it here. I'd be glad to add any additional steps you used, if you're interested.

Brillant..i've missed it...thx for reminder...i'll go see if there is anything worth adding , I'll PM you if there is so you can add to it if you think it's worthy.

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Save Kim Winfrey! Buy the WSO or donate.

As an aside use the products in the WSO to make tons of cash!

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Bill Farnham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TPFLegionaire

I was inspired by this thread. So when a product appeared in the WSO which I was unsure off, I decided to make an example of due diligence process public.

Fwiw, that actually was a good exercise on that particular product. I looked at it since you brought it up and found it to be quite...quite...quite...how do I put this...befuddling as to how someone can make so many claims on their sales page and then refute them all in a manner that tries to make them look like they are 100% Gubberment Approved. :rolleyes:

For instance...

"You'll earn - at the bare minimum - $100,000 in your first year as our business partner ... and far bigger $$$'s thereafter."

Nearer the bottom of the page...

"The FTC rules forbid anyone to guarantee success with their online program - so we can't and we won't promise you guaranteed success."

Now, that's an odd juxtaposition. If you are going to state income claims stand by them. The weasel clauses only point out your insincerity, not make you look like you are abiding by the law. You can't have it both ways.

Epic fail, imo.

~Bill

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

Fwiw, that actually was a good exercise on that particular product. I looked at it since you brought it up and found it to be quite...quite...quite...how do I put this...befuddling as to how someone can make so many claims on their sales page and then refute them all in a manner that tries to make them look like they are 100% Gubberment Approved. :rolleyes:

For instance...

"You'll earn - at the bare minimum - $100,000 in your first year as our business partner ... and far bigger $$$'s thereafter."

Nearer the bottom of the page...

"The FTC rules forbid anyone to guarantee success with their online program - so we can't and we won't promise you guaranteed success."

Now, that's an odd juxtaposition. If you are going to state income claims stand by them. The weasel clauses only point out your insincerity, not make you look like you are abiding by the law. You can't have it both ways.

Epic fail, imo.

~Bill

I'd be willing to stake my "$100,000 in your first year as our business partner" that the FTC agrees with the bolded statement above.

~M~

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"Ich bin en fuego!"

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fitz10

14 years ago

Buy with a credit card and if it's a real scam (not just buyers remorse) you should be able to get your money back if you issue a complaint. There was a WSO a few months back that sold very well, but ended up not delivering. Many people paid by credit card but were able to get to get their money back long after the Paypal refund period (this was an extended "course", many people didn't realize the scam until 45 days in). Paypal even bent their rules and granted refunds after the 45 day period for a few people.

The point is that there are protections in place if something truly is a scam.

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Tom B Banned 14 years ago

It is pretty simple...

Email Paul Myers your copy of the wso and he will go through it in great detail. Paul will take notes as if he was taking an exam on it later.

After a week of review, he will give you the "Dumbass" approval if it meets the qualifications of a good product.

One product will be reviewed per week. We have to make sure Paul has time for beer, darts and pool. Don't worry, Paul doesn't sleep anymore because he is afraid of not waking up since he just had a birthday.

Of course, this will be a free service because Paul is a really great guy who loves this forum above everything else.

PM me for his phone number, address and social security number so you can get started on the review process.
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- Bill Farnham 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  After a week of review, he will give you the "Dumbass" approval if it meets the qualifications of a good product.
  
  Ah, the old 'cat scan' treatment...
  
  Too bad Paul doesn't own a Lab, as well.
  
  ~Bill
  
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  Tom B Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Bill Farnham
  
  Ah, the old 'cat scan' treatment...
  
  Too bad Paul doesn't own a Lab, as well.
  
  ~Bill
  
  Paul prints out the ebook and sets it in the cat litter. If dumbass doesn't use the cat litter then obviously it is a bad product.
  
  Thanks
  
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  Paul Myers 14 years ago
  
  Bill,
  
  Ah, the old 'cat scan' treatment...
  
  Okay. THAT was clever.
  
  Too bad Paul doesn't own a Lab, as well.
  
  I don't???
  
  Paul
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
  Signature
  
  .
  Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.
  
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  Bill Farnham 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  .I don't???
  
  I meant the dog kind...and if you do then charge for a Lab report, as well.
  
  ~Bill
  
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  1 reply
  
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  Paul Myers 14 years ago
  
  Bill,
  
  I meant the dog kind...
  
  So did I. Yellow lab and golden retriever mix. 85 pounds of fat and happy, until someone becomes aggressive.
  
  A lab report, eh? This is funny stuff.
  
  Paul
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  .
  Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.
  
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humbledmarket

Banned 14 years ago

I recently purchased articles from a warrior on this forum who looked very reputable with many thanks and long standing on this forum.

However I did not receive the article when they were supposedly sent to me. I requested for a resend; all I received was 2 articles. I'm highly disappointed and not too sure what I can do.

I've messaged multiple times and the warrior is just not responding. I can tell from their profile that they were online various times. I've also emailed them with no response.

Thanks for any suggestions. If I reported this to the warrior forum support team can they look into this?

Thanks

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