How Do You Expose A Fraud?

14 years ago

Unfortunately you can't publically Sal, obviously if anyone wants to pm you and ask who it is, that's much different

I'd just keep an eye on what they are doing.

Kim

Originally Posted by sal64

Just wondering if anyone can point out what the protocol is on here.

I have stumbled across a Warrior who did me out of $2500 (and quite a few others as well) about 4 years ago.

He disappeared, and now he's back.

I believe he should be exposed, but don't want to get myself banned int he process.

Any advice?

Thx in advance.

Sal

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Kevin_Hutto

14 years ago

I dont think there's anything you can do... Theres a warrior who screwed me out of $500 - he was supposed to do a job and never did it... He posts here all the time - and is "respected"... I think you just gotta let it go. And ignore them.

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David Jackson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto

I dont think there's anything you can do... Theres a warrior who screwed me out of $500 - he was supposed to do a job and never did it... He posts here all the time - and is "respected"... I think you just gotta let it go. And ignore them.

Bull! If somebody in this forum screws me out of any money, I'm screaming bloody murder. I don't care if I do get banned. By remaining silent, you and others who have been ripped-off are complicit in his fraudulent activities. You're enabling him to continue operating in a fraudulent manner. Don't just sit back and let people steal your hard-earned money. Go after them!

David Jackson

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Bull! If somebody in this forum screws me out of any money, I'm screaming bloody murder. I don't care if I do get banned. By remaining silent, you and others who have been ripped-off are complicit in his fraudulent activities. You're enabling him to continue operating in a fraudulent manner. Don't just sit back and let people steal your hard-earned money. Go after them!

David, there are other places for you to do that. Doing it here is far more likely to get YOU banned then the perpetrator. Surely you can see the point of the rule from the administration side? Not to mention that if it was allowed, you'd see far more FALSE accusations then real ones.

Tina

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by David Jackson

Bull! If somebody in this forum screws me out of any money, I'm screaming bloody murder. I don't care if I do get banned.
David Jackson

Neither do we.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Mr Jackson,

Bull! If somebody in this forum screws me out of any money, I'm screaming bloody murder. I don't care if I do get banned. By remaining silent, you and others who have been ripped-off are complicit in his fraudulent activities. You're enabling him to continue operating in a fraudulent manner. Don't just sit back and let people steal your hard-earned money. Go after them!

I have explained this policy to you previously, several times. If you continue to urge others to violate it after this ban expires, you're not going to be allowed back in at all.

It is not necessary that one shout from the rooftops in order to be heard by those who can take action. A whisper in the right ear is much more effective. It's also easier to correct if you're wrong.

I'm going to repeat something I said the other day: Too many people in this group confuse personal dissatisfaction with scamming. Since Sal hasn't PM'd me with the details yet, I have no way of knowing if that applies here, but it's one of the reasons for the rule.

Paul

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John Durham

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Neither do we.

Anyone who doesnt care about being banned, is someone who has not experienced the power of utilizing their membership to it's fullest potential. Once you see how powerful the warrior forum can be for you, then your membership becomes more valuable than your ideals.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Durham

Anyone who doesnt care about being banned, is someone who has not experienced the power of utilizing their membership to it's fullest potential. Once you see how powerful the warrior forum can be for you, then your membership becomes more valuable than your ideals.

You don't think I meant "neither do we care if WE get banned" do you? Most of us follow the rules and do care.

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John Durham 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You don't think I meant "neither do we care if WE get banned" do you? Most of us follow the rules and do care.

No I knew what you meant. I was agreeing with you... thought that might get misunderstood but wasnt sure how to reword.

I guess I was"concurring", and adding to your statement.
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- sal64 14 years ago
  
  Hi everyone,
  
  Firstly - thank you for the support via PM.
  
  Secondly - I did not intend for this thread to become an argument.
  
  Thirdly - I'll clarify exactly what happened...
  
  Back in 2006 I came across this guy, and to his credit, he wrote one of the best sales letter I have ever read.
  
  The offer was a 12 month training program including personal coaching etc. Total cost was $5k. The deal was 50% up front and the balance after 6 months.
  
  It started off ok. After a few months, classes were delayed. It was communicated to us (there were 20+ students) that he was ill... which we later learned was a breakdown.
  
  We all received an email from his wife promising that we would be refunded the money if full, within 60 days.
  
  After a few weeks, I emailed to check on the progress of refunds.
  
  At this stage, all emails bounced and phone lines were disconnected.
  
  And that's all she wrote.
  
  Last week, much to my surprise, I stumbled across this person in the WSO thread. He looks different these days, but I purchased the WSO out of curiosity.
  
  And sure enough, the bonuses comprised the same materials we were given as part of the training.
  
  A 2nd WSO is also active and the social proof used in it are the same as he used on the training sales letter back in 2006.
  
  Best,
  
  Sal
  
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  WritingMadwoman 14 years ago
  
  Wow - definitely send all that information to Paul, Sal. Seems pretty clear that it's the same person. I'm sorry that had to happen to you!
  
  Wendy
  
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  sal64 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by WritingMadwoman
  
  Wow - definitely send all that information to Paul, Sal. Seems pretty clear that it's the same person. I'm sorry that had to happen to you!
  
  Wendy
  
  Thx for the support Wendy.
  
  Frankly, I'm not fussed about the money these days.. although it is a large amount.
  
  I am big on ethics and values. And frankly, you have a situation where over 20 people were done for that amount... so we're talking at least 50k all up.
  
  Where is the justice for these people? I have soldiered on and forged a successful business. But what about the others who maxed out their cards, then were left with the debt?
  
  Not to mention that they probably gave up on IM and the lifestyle opportunity that this industry affords us.
  
  That's what makes my blood boil.
  
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  AlanGNW 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sal64
  
  Last week, much to my surprise, I stumbled across this person in the WSO thread. He looks different these days, but I purchased the WSO out of curiosity.
  
  Are you serious Sal? You say this person ripped you off, and then gave him more money! You're joking aren't you?
  
  It's easy to expose people. Set your sites wider than this forum! PM me if you want some tips - it's something of a speciality of mine
  
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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Chris,

This is akin to jumping on a grenade and taking one for the team.

That analogy only holds true if the one who falls on the grenade also pulled the pin and tossed it there in the first place.

Sal had already been told how to deal with the situation. That being the case, Mr Jackson's comments serve no practical purpose.

Paul

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

I'm going to repeat something I said the other day: Too many people in this group confuse personal dissatisfaction with scamming. Since Sal hasn't PM'd me with the details yet, I have no way of knowing if that applies here, but it's one of the reasons for the rule.

I'm sure Sal will be in touch, Paul. Being an Aussie, he was probably asleep when you said to PM him and it's only 6:15 am there now. We have a JV going right now and it's quite fun trying to discuss things with him being in Australia and me being here, on the east coast...lol.

Tina

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Tina,

I'm in no rush. He'll talk to me when he can. I just threw in that caveat so people wouldn't think I had formed any opinions yet. Unless it's the guy I'm thinking of, who preyed on new members via PM. If it's him, I just want to know which account to ban and which ISP to contact.

Otherwise, it's just rumor until I have verifiable specifics.

Paul
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nitesh

14 years ago

How did you pay him? Paypal or any other payment method.

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sal64 14 years ago

Originally Posted by nitesh

How did you pay him? Paypal or any other payment method.

It was by CC and in Australia, we did not have the same charge back rules that apply in the USA.
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Kim Standerline

14 years ago

If it's from a WSO, and they post another one, I'm not sure whether it's possible to give a review about previous sales within that thread. It's been done in the past but not sure whether it's frowned upon now

Kim

Bit irrelevant really if it was 4 years ago

Originally Posted by nitesh

How did you pay him? Paypal or any other payment method.

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sal64 14 years ago

Yeah, I doubt I'll see my money again to be honest, as he hasn't replied to my PM's.

But he doesn't deserve to be here IMO.
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- ileneg 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sal64
  
  But he doesn't deserve to be here IMO.
  
  Agree w/you but not sure that you can do anything about it other than keep your eye on him as Kim said.
  
  The main overriding rule for this forum is this:
  
  If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God, take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.
  
  http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ing-forum.html
  
  On one hand you could respectively challenge his posts (but it's not worth getting yourself in trouble so don't stoop to his level). On the other hand, as hard as it is, it is probably better to let it go because odds are he has already taken up too much of your time and energy as it is. Easier said then done, I know cause I am dealing w/the same thing (but it was only $250).
  
  Unfortunately, as those of us who have been here a while know, he's probably not the only one.
  
  ileneg
  
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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

Just wondering if anyone can point out what the protocol is on here.

I have stumbled across a Warrior who did me out of $2500 (and quite a few others as well) about 4 years ago.

He disappeared, and now he's back.

I believe he should be exposed, but don't want to get myself banned int he process.

Any advice?

Thx in advance.

Sal

Hi Sal,

As already mentioned you can't do it publicly in the forum for too many reasons to list here. However, if you have proof that this Warrior is a scammer this is what I would do. I would submit a support ticket at the help desk with a very detailed, but to-the-point brief synopsis on who it is and what had transpired.

Secondly, irregardless of proof, I would personally keep an eye on him or her just to see what they are up to and look for any irregularities. I also sent you a PM.

RoD

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

If it was a WSO or Classified, post the problem you had in that thread. Don't do it anywhere else on the forum. It's a Rule #1 violation.

Also, if it was a WSO or Classified, you can report that you got ripped off to the help desk. If they find your complaint is valid, they might ban him.

Thanks

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John Durham

14 years ago

What does "Taken" mean... I know sometimes customers who pay for big ticket training items... later believe they were "taken"... that may not be the case with you... I just wondered what you meant by "taken"... I like to believe that kind of thing is dealt with here if it has any validity.

Originally Posted by sal64

Just wondering if anyone can point out what the protocol is on here.

I have stumbled across a Warrior who did me out of $2500 (and quite a few others as well) about 4 years ago.

He disappeared, and now he's back.

I believe he should be exposed, but don't want to get myself banned int he process.

Any advice?

Thx in advance.

Sal

Thanks
1 reply

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Kay King 14 years ago

You've been a member for two years - is this person someone who joined recently?

If that's the case, and he is selling to members here...it doesn't hurt to send a brief statement about the problem to the help desk. It might alert mods to a potential problem - or they can ignore it. Their choice.

If the problem did not happen through this forum I wouldn't dog him here relentlessly by pm or otherwise as it may hurt you more than him.

kay
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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Sal,

I have stumbled across a Warrior who did me out of $2500 (and quite a few others as well) about 4 years ago.

He disappeared, and now he's back.

PM me the specifics. If it's who I think it is, he'll be gone as soon as I know he's here. If not, I can try to look into it.

Paul

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JustinDupre

14 years ago

You should totally report this.. Just to be on the same side and let WF admin keep watch of the guy.. It would not be right to let him stay around after what he did.

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Vogin

14 years ago

Wow. I didn't know that if someone use the "give-me-your-money-and-screw-you" tactic, it's so hard to penalize him? Not that I've met anyone like that so far, but still...

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Alan Petersen

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Vogin

Wow. I didn't know that if someone use the "give-me-your-money-and-screw-you" tactic, it's so hard to penalize him? Not that I've met anyone like that so far, but still...

If someone really defrauded you it's not that hard to get them penalized in the forum. As others posted send a help desk ticket with the details. If it checks out they'll ban him/her from the forum. If they try to slime their way back eventually people catch on and they get banned again.

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Ken Leatherman

14 years ago

David,

You know for someone who is supposed to be so darn smart, you apparently are lacking in the common sense department. As you are willing to ignore the very obvious standards that are set in the WF.

On top of that 2 senior Moderators posted above your post and made it abundantly clear, there are steps that can be taken when the situation is reported to the Support Desk.

However this is not the first time you have chosen to state you will do something come hell or high water even if it means violating the rules of the WF. If you are so intent on this violation why don't you just go on and get yourself banned or just cancel your membership. That way you may not lead someone astray, as they might think they can get away with something too.

By the way this is my opinion.

Ken Leatherman

The Old Geezer

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Steven Carl Kelly

14 years ago

I had a long-time Warrior take me for almost $1,000. Since it wasn't a large amount of money, I just let them know how I felt about their little game via e-mail, and that was that. I still paid my team members who worked on their project so the people who did the work weren't out anything, but I personally ate the loss.

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Sal, Did you PM Paul Myers yet?

If not please do so. Here is his request that you do so.
PM me the specifics.

Thanks,
Have a great Day!
Michael

Thanks

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roy chambers

14 years ago

yeah sal, let it go, karma is always in effect.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Michael,

He has PM'd me the details. As often happens, it's not as clear cut as some folks here assumed. He has a legitimate beef, but it's not a deliberate scamming situation. It's a "nobody won, everybody lost, and how much can it be made right?" situation. One of those "victims without villains" things.

I don't know the answers to this yet. Just got more questions than I had to start. I need more info before I can even decide IF there's anything we should do, much less what would be the right thing.

Paul
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Chris1203

14 years ago

If this Warrior scammed people in this forum previously, I don't understand how you couldn't get him banned from here. Have you considered emailing the administrator?

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John Romaine

14 years ago

People that do this are scum.

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sal64 14 years ago

[Edited by Paul. Reason: Too much info pointing to the specific individual. Please do NOT try to "out" this person in this way again. I am looking into it.]

Yeah thanks mate.

I'm glad you thought so.

Care to pint out exactly how?

I was expressing a view.
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- Paul Myers 14 years ago
  
  Sal,
  
  You've given me the info I need. In the mean time, you're also pushing the limits.
  
  Here is my current perspective: The initial problem did not arise as a result of an ad here. The person involved has great reviews here, with nothing to indicate that he's causing problems for Warriors. In fact, he's got great feedback.
  
  Strictly speaking, he's doing well within the rules, and you're pushing them. Who am I supposed to consider an internal problem? I'll keep asking questions and digging into it, but I refuse to allow anyone to dictate the rules of this forum based on one side of a very two-sided problem.
  
  There are people you shouldn't try to bully, sir. Especially when they're trying to help you. The mods here are not the Internet police. We're the WF police, and that's a very limited function.
  
  Paul
  
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bretski 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ramone_johnny

People that do this are scum.

Before you all get your pitchforks and torches out why not try putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Paul has it in hand and it's not really something that even needs to be discussed in the open forum other than for an object lesson...a couple of them from what I've read here.
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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Michael,

He has PM'd me the details.

That's cool!
I didn't read a post saying if he did or not so I thought I should ask.

As often happens, it's not as clear cut as some folks here assumed.

It's rarely ever is. Too many variables. Only the facts will tell the true story.

Once you have more verifiable facts, you'll triangulate the problem child.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

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David Louis Monk

14 years ago

I am sorry Sal you lost so much. I lost $497 to a WSO so it was not bought outside this forum. That is why I shall keep advocating that Warriors who make these high priced offers are made to register valid contact details. I do not expect WF to help me except for making Warriors register before they can sell high priced offers.

The rogue Warrior will not answer my emails and that is the only line of contact I have. Honorable Warriors should not fear to publish their telephone number and business address.

There should be a simple policy; no telephone number,no offer; no contact address, no offer.

If invalid information is found to be given by the Warrior they should be banned.

If mentioned rogue offers another WSO or shows his face by posting on this forum, I shall be replying to ask embarrassing questions.

I have seen many Warriors submitting their transaction ID for refunds. If the chance presents itself, I shall continue to ask for my refund.

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bretski 14 years ago

Let me start by saying that the Warrior Forum really is a great community as a whole. There are people here that are a part of my every day life. I look forward to reading their posts and some have become friends that I talk to on a daily basis on the phone or through skype.

There are also some people on here that I have great respect for that I haven't been able to introduce myself to because they're like freakin' rock stars to me...There is also a segment of people who are just "passing through"; also spammers, scammers and trolls...and then there are the newbies. I really do like newbies because I was one once too. Everyone was.

The point is that I think that this forum is around first, to educate folks...the newbies and those serious about IM...but the cool part about this forum is the community.

How many times have you seen posts about someone who has fallen on rough times or had a tragedy? A child dies, a spouse is ill or even a fellow Warrior who is extremely ill.

A breakdown can be a devastating thing. My suggestion as a carbon based lifeform is to either let it go and stick out your hand in friendship and say "glad to see you back...no hard feelings...hope all is well with you and yours. You are lucky to have a wife that was able to care for you" and move on with your life. Or "B"...ask the dude if you can have in on the coaching that he is doing now that you paid him for before...or "C" ask him if he can pay you back at some future date.

Chances are if this guy was down for the count for a while his phone is ringing off the hook with bill collectors, the mortgage company etc...even bill collectors these days have a heart due to the fair debt protection act or whatever it is, and jumping on him is just going to freak him out. You might even find that it's good food for your soul...
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George Stavrakakis

14 years ago

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

...Personally I don't like the rule that does not allow us to mention the person. However, it is the rule and it is up to me to decide if I want to follow it or not and suffer the consequences....

When I first joined this forum, I didn't like that rule either, but experience has taught me to change my mind. Today, I personally LOVE the rule. Put yourself on the other side of the coin. I like the fact that someone can't just come into this forum and start making unfounded accusations againsts me or my business. Granted that sometimes my product or service might not have met the expectations of the end user, but thats what my refund policy is for.

Now, in the event that someone has a legitimate issue with another Warrior this still isn't the venue to do that. There are government agencies, web hosting companies that can be contacted, attorney offices etc. that can be contacted in order to deal with most situations.

So this long time Warrior is glad this rule is in place. It's very easy to get sucked into thinking it would be a good idea to allow to name scammers out in this forum. On the surface it sounds like a good idea, but in reality it actually opens up the forum to more problems and more mod policing than necessary. The rule is in place for a good reason and people seem to forget that there is a process if the Warrior is hurting other Warriors; you just can't do it publicly.

RoD

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gkd

Banned 14 years ago

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How Do You Expose A Fraud?

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