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So, you want a testimonial, huh?

by Elmer Hurlstone
66 replies
A while ago I received a PM from another WF member.

Here it is--with all identification of the person removed:

Dear Elmer Hurlstone,

You have received a new private message at WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums from [Redacted], entitled "Hello!".

To read the original version, respond to, or delete this message, you must log in here: {link removed so you wouldn't spend too much time in your own PM boxes}
This is the message that was sent:
***************
Hello Elmer. I have finished creating a WSO but I like some testimonials from some warriors. I've picked you as one people I would like to offer a review copy.

I will offer this review copy on the condition that you:

* PM me your testimonial (duh).
* Post that very same testimonial on the WSO page of the product.


If you are interested, please reply to this message.
I will not reply to the request, and here's why:

1. I don't know the person. In itself that's neither good or bad, it's just fact. When I first joined WF a few years ago I knew absolutely no one. Over the years I've come to know several folks fairly well. Mostly from participating in threads and finding folks who seem to be generally compatible with me. Although there are a few notable exceptions that are also friends--again, I won't mention names.

2. There is nothing in the request to indicate why I'm a logical choice to review the product. There are many areas of the IM about which I don't have a clue.

3. What is the product? Why would I want it? Do I need it? Is it germane to anything I do?

4. Testimonials are earned not 'exchanged'. My "price" is above rubies--or ebooks. If your product is, in my opinion, worthwhile and something I can objectively evaluate I may provide a testimonial or review.

5. Purely and simply this ain't the way to request testimonials. If the testifier isn't qualified to testify, the testimonial is worthless.

6. Some folks just may consider this type of request "PM Spam". I'm not going to report it as such since the particular requester has not been a member for long and may not know better. It's also possible someone "taught" this as a "Good Technique".

In any event, for anyone looking for a testimonial or review these are a few things to think about.

Elmer
#huh #testimonial
  • Profile picture of the author Andy H
    Great post, Elmer.

    That approach reminds me of the type of thing that is commonplace on another IM forum (that will remain nameless).

    This is one of the reasons people are increasingly skeptical about testimonials. With this type of solicitation and blatant abuse, can we blame them?

    Andy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Some folks would have reported that person for spamming their inbox, and they may have received a temporary ban (or permanent, depending on their history), so the person is "lucky" they approached Elmer and not someone else.

    If you want to ask Warriors for testimonials, it's best to offer a few review copies in your WSO. An alternative is to only ask people you've had a few friendly conversations with in the forums . . . in other words, ask people you know. Asking strangers has led to bans before, and it will again, I'm sure.

    It's also not wise to make demands of those you ask to review your product. Anyone taking the time to review your product and write something up is doing you the favor. They're already giving you one of the most precious things they have -- their time -- you'd be wise not to push your luck asking for anything more than that.

    When I'm asked to review something, I usually reply that I'll give their product an honest review, but it won't necessarily be favorable -- whether the review is favorable or not depends on the product quality. You'd be surprised how many people that scares off.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I'm glad someone started a thread about this, Elmer. I think of this as more or less cheating. The WSO creator is trying to invent social proof, and even more, they're trying to shortcut the process of networking with other Warriors. If he/she had known you before (through previous contact and mutual respect), that would be one thing. But to spam other Warriors for this purpose is always wrong. IMO.

    Thanks for bringing up this subject.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Elmer,

    As bad as I hate to agree with you and John :p on anything, you guys have done a great job of bringing this out.

    This is a typical mistake many "newbies" will make thinking it is o.k or have been told by someone it is the right way to get testamonials. As Dennis said offer the review copies in the WSO thread. Then you may have a chance of being able to develop a long term relationship with the Warrior who is willing to review the product in the WSO.

    Ken
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    So Check Out My WSO
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      When I get 'em, I just ignore 'em...unless it's somebody I know.

      They're not worth reporting even because they're not worth my time.

      I respond to PMs with some thought behind them. Contacting me when I
      don't know you from Adam shows no thought IMO.

      In fact, if I see a PM from somebody I don't know, I don't even bother
      reading it. It's just immediate trash. So they could be offering me a million
      dollars sent via Western Union and I wouldn't know it.

      Truth is, the PM function should be limited to people who you put on your
      friend's list.

      That way, not every Tom, Dick and Harry can contact you every time
      they want something.

      Can you tell this is a real sore spot with me?

      End of rant.
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      • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
        I don't even really understand the concept here to start with. I don't get these PMs, I guess my post count isn't high enough or add that invisible value which comes with it eh?

        The whole concept behind a review is for a customer to share their experience with the product, if you recruit a senior member of the forum to add that invisible value to your offer what do they say?

        "I think..." - "This could..." - "Seems like..." etc.

        The senior members in most cases will not actually be able to use the product but only give their opinion of it and typically say "yes, I think someone could make money with this" yet they have little to no use for it themselves. Real reviews from real customers have a much greater impact on real world results. If your product sucks I don't know of a single senior member here who isn't going to straight out tell you it sucks.

        When a WSO offer starts it is pretty much common knowledge there are no reviews because it is new. I am more skeptical of the WSOs which have 5 testimonials from random members the second it is listed.

        No reason to not put up your offer and let it ride, get a backbone and stand behind your work because to people like me you come off as spineless and attempting to peddle useless junk by not having any faith in those who buy from you. A good product has tons of members come back and share their thoughts as they use the darn thing, everything else is fluff and blowing smoke up my a$$.

        I would even go as far as to say senior members who allow unknown product creators to ride their coattails are verging on doing this community a disservice by participating at all. Leave it to the members who are actually going to go through the material to learn and grow their business. Once they do, a large majority of them will come back and say they got some use out of the product, and do so gladly.

        Requesting reviews from specific people is gaming the system and manipulating an invisible value people associate with post counts, it is silly and gives me a bad impression of the product creators character.
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  • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    So you only buy things from your next door neighbor and won't judge a product on its merits even if it's given to you.

    Good for you.
    Ken,

    Perhaps you missed the point of the post. It is less about judging or evaluating a product than the particular method used to solicit a testimonial.

    In this case, receipt of the product on which the testimonial--not a review, and they are different creatures--is requested is conditioned by agreeing to provide a testimonial before seeing or having any knowledge of the product.

    In the past I've purchased much more from my "not-next-door-neighbors" than from. Border's, Amazon and quite a few other Warriors--some whom I know and others I don't--love my Visa card.

    Elmer
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  • Profile picture of the author Leslie B
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    So you only buy things from your next door neighbor and won't judge a product on its merits even if it's given to you.

    Good for you.
    I can't see Elmer saying that he wouldn't buy the product from the person he got the PM from is it was something he was interested in. What he is saying is that the way he is looking for testimonials isn't the way to go. You should read what is there, not what you think there is.

    Leslie
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    You have over 1,000 posts, though....let's face it, as much as we'd like to think that post count doesn't count for much, people do look at it....to judge credibility based on post count alone is a bit faulty, however, it does give at least a good starting point by which to guage the POTENTIAL of one's involvement, investment, and contribution in the community...

    Of course, you could have 4,000+ posts of crap...or you could have 4,000 posts like Alexas....

    Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone View Post

    A while ago I received a PM from another WF member.

    Here it is--with all identification of the person removed:

    I will not reply to the request, and here's why:

    1. I don't know the person. In itself that's neither good or bad, it's just fact. When I first joined WF a few years ago I knew absolutely no one. Over the years I've come to know several folks fairly well. Mostly from participating in threads and finding folks who seem to be generally compatible with me. Although there are a few notable exceptions that are also friends--again, I won't mention names.

    2. There is nothing in the request to indicate why I'm a logical choice to review the product. There are many areas of the IM about which I don't have a clue.

    3. What is the product? Why would I want it? Do I need it? Is it germane to anything I do?

    4. Testimonials are earned not 'exchanged'. My "price" is above rubies--or ebooks. If your product is, in my opinion, worthwhile and something I can objectively evaluate I may provide a testimonial or review.

    5. Purely and simply this ain't the way to request testimonials. If the testifier isn't qualified to testify, the testimonial is worthless.

    6. Some folks just may consider this type of request "PM Spam". I'm not going to report it as such since the particular requester has not been a member for long and may not know better. It's also possible someone "taught" this as a "Good Technique".

    In any event, for anyone looking for a testimonial or review these are a few things to think about.

    Elmer
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    • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      You have over 1,000 posts, though...
      Soldier,

      You're right, I do have that many. And, as I'm sure more than one person can tell you, some of them have been crap. Hopefully most have provided some value to other Warriors.

      As you can easily see it's taken me about four and a half years to reach that number. There are many folks on here who have evidenced much greater ambition.

      Perhaps the important point of this thread is until now unstated.

      Requesting social proof via testimonials is an important marketing task. Do it the right way and you'll benefit.

      Qualify the person from whom you're requesting the favor.

      Example: When it comes to many technical, coding or scripty things, I'm among the worst in the online world. My testimonial on a product telling you the best way to build a HTML site or a PHP powered article directory would be detrimental to your bottom line.

      Elmer
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        To read the original version, respond to, or delete this message, you must log in here: http://www.warriorforum.com/private.php
        Elmer you scoundrel, that live link goes straight to my private doohickey.

        How did you know I was going to read this thread. Is this some kind of back door way for you get on my radar so I'll give you a testimonial. :confused:

        You've been hanging around that Sutton guy too long...

        ~Bill

        P.S.

        You've been on my radar for a long time. You're one kind hearted ol' feller.
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        • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
          Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

          Elmer you scoundrel, that live link goes straight to my private doohickey.

          How did you know I was going to read this thread. Is this some kind of back door way for you get on my radar so I'll give you a testimonial. :confused:

          You've been hanging around that Sutton guy too long...

          ~Bill

          P.S.

          You've been on my radar for a long time. You're one kind hearted ol' feller.
          Bill,

          In an effort to minimize your angst and keep you from reading too many PM's I've finally--after a half-dozen tries--gotten rid of that aggravating link.

          Elmer

          PS. Kindly see my "I ain't technical" disclaimer somewhere in this tread.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        I think that alot of people don't seem to quite understand that anything related to social media essentially boils down to relationships. People are more inclined to help....to give testimonials, and to give your product a shot in the first place, IF you show consistency in your attempts to interact with and contribute to the greater community. Of course, with signature lines, there is a bit of motivation that makes it not exactly pure altruism, however, if someone makes 10 posts, and then sends a PM asking for a testimonial, they will more than likely get a line or two PM back saying that I won't be able to do it. (I do feel that everyone should at least get some kind of response back, unless it's clearly obvious that their email was just flat-out cut and pasted. I know it bothers me when I spend 30 minutes crafting an email, only to have it completely ignored....lol...even with 2,000+ posts, this still happens to me alot, believe it or not. Anyways....I don't like when it happens to me, so I really try not to do it to others.)
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I have been asked to review some WSOs. Never has anyone 'conditioned' the request. I did agree on one I liked, but usually, I don't find my knowledge to be extensive enough to even offer a review... good or bad. (I am much better at determining who KNOWS what they are talking about though... and it ain't me. Lol.)
    I have 'sold' quite a few WSOs to people looking for one thing or another that I had bought and found useful by referring them to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    I got the same PM.. and there I was feeling all special inside because I had been selected as one of the lucky few to be offered this fantastic deal to sell my principles in exchange for a free ebook.

    I don't have a problem with looking at WSO's from people I know and giving them honest feedback, but when it's a conditional offer, it tells me that's not someone I want to do business with.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    So you only buy things from your next door neighbor and won't judge a product on its merits even if it's given to you.

    Good for you.
    To get a testimonial from me, first you have to earn the sale. Then I have to like and find value in the product.

    I don't want your products for free and you can't buy my testimonial. My testimonials mean something because they are real ... not given because I've been bribed with some product.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Yo get a testimonial from me, you only have to ask. If I have the time, I'll review it and give you an honest opinion. You don't have to jump through hoops, "earn the sale," or sit up and beg.

      It's called professional courtesy.
      Different strokes for different folks but bribing people with freebies for reviews and other fake reviews are the reason that I don't even read reviews. They are meaningless to me unless they are real.

      So ... if it's a WSO and you haven't bought it and the guy bribes you with a freebie to review it and you think it's donkey dung ... do you say so in the WSO thread?
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      • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
        Just to clarify, reviews and testimonials are not the same thing.

        A review is an objective evaluation of something. It is either a positive, negative or neutral presentation of a qualified viewer's observation of the product.

        A testimonial is a positive comment or comments on the product. Ideally by a qualified, knowledgeable person.

        When you ask a person for a testimonial you're not asking for an objective opinion, per se, you're asking them to state the product is worthwhile, does what it claims to do and, essentially, place their "stamp of approval" on it.

        Elmer
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        • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
          Well to me, whether you give a negative review or a glowing testimonial you still should pay careful attention to whom you hook your wagon to.

          I am a research fanatic to some degree, if I go back say a year and find you gave a glowing testimonial to a product who's creator was just found to be scamming members today, would it be wrong of me to assume you may be capable of the same thing and avoid your products?

          A narrow minded approach sure but still, I think ALL reviews and ALL testimonials should ONLY come from paying customers or those who came into the WSO out of their own interest and were lucky enough to get a free review copy the product creator willingly provided.

          Feels much more honest and fair.
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          • Profile picture of the author Bradshaw
            I would like to issue a public apology. I am the one who PM'ed a number of members. I've already PM'ed Elmer but I feel there is no need to hide my identity.

            First, my apologies.

            I apologize for the inconvenience. I PM'ed a number of members in the forum who I felt were more experienced; All War Room members.

            I do feel that stating "conditions" is something I should not have done and this experience has taught me that simply giving away things for free without any need to give conditions to people works much better.

            Not only does it work better, I feel better when I do it. A while after doing the conditions stuff I felt it was pretty stupid... but I didn't really act on it and just kept on doing it.

            Elmer has acted with honor by not revealing my name and I am thankful for it, but there is no need for it, really.

            The "conditions" statement I proposed on the PM is a very low-consciousness thing and this is something I shall never repeat again. This is a lesson I have learned in order to improve myself and Mr. Elmer (And you all) have taught me.

            Again, thank you for giving me this lesson, and my total and complete apologies for the inconvenience. I especially think you may have found the product interesting. It's a perspective that mixes quantum physics and internet marketing and from reading your forum posts I feel it's something that you might have particularly enjoyed.

            Again, my deepest apologies and thank you for giving me this life lesson. I am very dedicated to personal growth and you have shown me how not to give conditions to fellow human beings.

            Thank you; And my apologies. To everyone who I PM'ed and for acting so irresponsibly. I don't want to excuse myself but I am very new to the forum and learning things very, very fast, so I am sort of fumbling around at rapid speeds.

            Apologies to everyone who recieved the PM. I have completely revised my mindset now and that is something I would simply not send again, ever again.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Bradshaw View Post

              I would like to issue a public apology. I am the one who PM'ed a number of members. I've already PM'ed Elmer but I feel there is no need to hide my identity.

              First, my apologies.

              I apologize for the inconvenience. I PM'ed a number of members in the forum who I felt were more experienced; All War Room members.
              Hey ... that's big of you to do this. I got the email and was not offended and did not report it either. I assumed you probably didn't know that you're not allowed to request them via pm or in the forum other than in your own WSO. Actually, this response gives me more of a reason to trust you and take a look when you do launch your products.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

                Requesting reviews from specific people is gaming the system and manipulating an invisible value people associate with post counts, it is silly and gives me a bad impression of the product creators character.
                I disagree with this. Some of us ask specific people to review our products because 1) we know it's someone who knows the subject material; and 2) because we know they are people who won't hesitate to tell us when it needs work or maybe be a total pile of crap. I will always operate this way. With my current WSO, I sent copies to somewhere around 10 people and they were all people that I knew would be honest and that have knowledge in content and product creation. I did not ask any of them to give me a testimonial; those that did, did so by choice. I see nothing wrong with that.

                Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

                (I do feel that everyone should at least get some kind of response back, unless it's clearly obvious that their email was just flat-out cut and pasted. I know it bothers me when I spend 30 minutes crafting an email, only to have it completely ignored....lol...even with 2,000+ posts, this still happens to me alot, believe it or not. Anyways....I don't like when it happens to me, so I really try not to do it to others.)
                Most of the time I do reply, even when telling someone that I don't have time. However, I don't OWE anyone my time, not even 30 seconds of it. If I don't know you from a hole in the ground and you PM me out of the blue without even telling me WHY you are asking me, chances are you will not get a reply.

                Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                Yo get a testimonial from me, you only have to ask. If I have the time, I'll review it and give you an honest opinion. You don't have to jump through hoops, "earn the sale," or sit up and beg.

                It's called professional courtesy.
                I think you are confusing testimonial and review. If I have time and know the subject enough to be able to give a qualified opinion, I will almost always do a review. I will not EVER give a testimonial upon request. If I like your product, I have no problem with you using what I say in your sales copy but if you make it conditional, or should I say, when you insist on a testimonial, it ain't happening.

                Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

                PS. But I am scared to contact any of your now to review my new product - how do I know if you *know* me
                Paul, I know you are tongue-in-cheek with this, but just in case there is someone reading who thinks for a second you might be serious, please don't get the wrong idea. Most of us will love to look at your product and give you our honest feedback. You won't always like what we have to say (I've given some rather brutal feedback before) but we aren't saying it to hurt your feelings. We say it so you have a chance to improve your product and not establish a bad reputation right from the start. And for god's sake, only ask people that you know might have a clue about your topic.

                Originally Posted by Bradshaw View Post

                I would like to issue a public apology. I am the one who PM'ed a number of members. I've already PM'ed Elmer but I feel there is no need to hide my identity.
                Bradshaw, you did more to gain my respect than you imagine with this post. I think it takes a big person to admit when they're wrong and to come out publicly is very courageous. I'm sure I'm not the only one that will keep this in mind as we get to know you.

                My 1.75 cents (it's tax-free weekend in Mass),
                Tina
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                • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                  Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

                  I disagree with this. Some of us ask specific people to review our products because 1) we know it's someone who knows the subject material; and 2) because we know they are people who won't hesitate to tell us when it needs work or maybe be a total pile of crap. I will always operate this way. With my current WSO, I sent copies to somewhere around 10 people and they were all people that I knew would be honest and that have knowledge in content and product creation. I did not ask any of them to give me a testimonial; those that did, did so by choice. I see nothing wrong with that.
                  Okay fair enough and I think what you are saying normally represents people whom you know and are friendly with or at the very least know you or your posts on this site. Reviews from like-minded professionals who have the knowledge to accurately determine where and if you need to improve something in your product is a good use of constructive criticism, but not necessarily needed on your sales page IMO. A sales page should be space for CUSTOMER reviews and testimonials, if a senior member here is one of your CUSTOMERS then by all means they should post or be seen on your WSO. Otherwise they have no business being there, as per the rules.

                  Among friends and business associates I absolutely DO frown upon paying one another the courtesy of a review and even a testimonial, UNLESS they are honest. It just looks fishy to me and it is also tough to decipher.

                  Frankly, all the random targeting and perceived value of high post count members aids in the degradation of what a review is supposed to be in the first place, does it not? Further, among friends is it not safe to assume there is a chance there will be less honesty and more fluff out of sheer camaraderie? Who wants to tell a friend they suck?

                  I do not see a gray area here and will always give much more value to a person who actually buys the product in which their review or testimonial will influence my buying decision as opposed to a couple squirrely friends who feel it necessary to rub the nuts of another squirrel in the group.

                  Then again though, I do not give post counts much value other then a window into the length of time a person has been here and participated as well as a running log of cold hard evidence to gauge their intellect and knowledge upon.

                  We are all bound to our words equally in my book, however inferior or irrelevant my book is perceived, I feel this is the most honest and fair way to go about my merry way.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                    I saw this PM in my inbox this morning. I replied. I simply told the sender that I was very busy and only reviewed product if I had time and it interested me. Then pointed out his mistakes for future reference.

                    1. He never gave a description of the product. Before I even take the time to download another freebie onto my groaning hard drive, I want to know what it is.

                    2. He asked me to commit to giving a testimonial and a WSO comment. I told him that I only give either if the product truly deserves it. We must all preserve our reputation with testimonials.
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                    • Profile picture of the author tpw
                      Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

                      I saw this PM in my inbox this morning. I replied. I simply told the sender that I was very busy and only reviewed product if I had time and it interested me. Then pointed out his mistakes for future reference.

                      1. He never gave a description of the product. Before I even take the time to download another freebie onto my groaning hard drive, I want to know what it is.

                      2. He asked me to commit to giving a testimonial and a WSO comment. I told him that I only give either if the product truly deserves it. We must all preserve our reputation with testimonials.
                      I am disappointed that the poster never even considered me worth a PM... LOL...
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Please learn to read. I do believe that i wrote "an honest opinion," did I not?

        Would I mention that I received a review copy?

        Probably, but maybe not. It depends on whether or not I would consider it germane to the situation. I certainly would not consider it a "bribe."

        If I didn't like the product, I'd say nothing at all, other than to let the product owner know why.

        Making a living in marketing is difficult enough without me putting obstructions in someone's way.
        I have a high level of reading ability. Nowhere did you say that you would actually post that "honest" review where others could benefit from it, unless of course it's a favorable review ... then you might post it. But unfavorable ... probably not. Why would you not go to the WSO thread and say that you were given a copy for review and it's your opinion that the product is total crap? Isn't that really what an honest review is about? Hiding the truth from potential buyers is hardly an honest review.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          Why?

          Because I can see no profit in that for anyone.

          That's why.
          Because by telling the truth about a bad product you could be preventing people from wasting their hard-earned money.

          That's why.

          All the best,
          Michael
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          "Ich bin en fuego!"
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

            Further, among friends is it not safe to assume there is a chance there will be less honesty and more fluff out of sheer camaraderie? Who wants to tell a friend they suck? You have a point. In my case, I only give it to people that I know will tell me like it is. If you aren't able to tell me what you truly think, then you aren't really my friend.

            I do not see a gray area here and will always give much more value to a person who actually buys the product in which their review or testimonial will influence my buying decision as opposed to a couple squirrely friends who feel it necessary to rub the nuts of another squirrel in the group. I do agree with you that I place more value on a paying customer's thoughts much of the time. When it comes to reviews, I only place stock in those that I've seen have the courage and integrity to truly tell it like it is.
            Ken,

            I agree with you on the point you made about not posting a bad review in a thread. If I didn't pay for it, I send negative feedback through PM or email, not in the thread.

            Tina
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              If it's a newer person sending you the PM - cut them a bit of slack

              I know a couple of ebooks and one coaching product that have/are being sold about selling money by making WSO's instruct people to PM or email prominent warriors for reviews.

              So, someone that buys the product or goes through the coaching is liable to take the instructors word as gospel and not think that they are doing anything wrong.

              I get several PM's like the one that Elmer described, and I either reply to them saying that I don't have time, or I simply delete them as I don't think it's fair to punish or turn someone in that is simply following instructions - especially with something like this where on the surface it appears to be an acceptable practice.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            Who am I to say they won't benefit from it? One man's trash is another man's treasure. I have better things to do than trash other people's products.

            I'll leave that to self-appointed product arbiters.

            I believe knocking other people's products is unprofessional, unproductive, and damaging to my own reputation.

            The market can take care of itself without me.

            Just sayin'.
            "Trashing" and "telling the truth" are not the same thing.

            If you're not willing to leave an honest review, then you're not really doing anything but adding to the problem. Period.

            Let the "market take care of itself" then, good or bad.

            See, the problem is people need to make an INFORMED decision, and if you are not sharing your HONEST experience thn you are doing a disservice to everybody interested in the product.

            That being said, there IS a way you could offer your opinion without fear of "damaging your reputation". Explain WHY you don't like it, but do so in an objective way.

            Oh, and, personally, I think you are damaging your reputation right now by saying you will only post positive reviews (if I understood you correctly), and withhold the truth if it's "negative". If that makes sense.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
              Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

              If my reputation hinges on publicly knocking other people's stuff because I don't like it, then to hell with the reputation. If I say I like something, it's because I like it -- and that's honest.

              If I have sense enough to keep my mouth shut about my negative personal opinions, that's honest, too.

              ...and yes, the market is the absolute best arbiter of the quality of a product.

              In short, my opinions are my own, and I will share them as I see fit.

              Is that alright with you?
              Not much I can do about that.

              ~Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Ken Caudill,
              So you only buy things from your next door neighbor and won't judge a product on its merits even if it's given to you.
              That's not what he said. If you'd restrain the urge to be snarky long enough to consider the posts to which you're replying, you'd have seen that.

              The behavior Elmer described is not allowed here, for simple enough reasons. It would lead to significant amounts of such PMs, and almost all of them targeted toward a small number of people with large numbers of posts. It's asking for something that is tacky at best, and possibly illegal. And it's abuse of the PM system.

              Yes, it does matter whether you know the person or not, when you're talking about an approach like this. And it should.
              It's called professional courtesy.
              There is nothing courteous about the spamming that got the original attention. Encouraging people to do this is just going to help them get a rep for the wrong kind of behavior.


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              • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
                Ok, now I'm confused. (easily done I know )

                Is it ok to ask members to review your product or not? I kind of thought it was ok, as long as you weren't spamming everybody and their dog.

                Is it just the way this particular PM was worded that isn't allowed, is it because he didn't know any of you, or is it just that it's not ok to ask for reviews?

                Thing is none of you have said you would (or did in this instance) report the person asking for a review so I'm assuming (still) that asking for them isn't against the rules but then I read Paul's post,


                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                The behavior Elmer described is not allowed here, for simple enough reasons. It would lead to significant amounts of such PMs, and almost all of them targeted toward a small number of people with large numbers of posts. It's asking for something that is tacky at best, and possibly illegal. And it's abuse of the PM system.

                Yes, it does matter whether you know the person or not, when you're talking about an approach like this. And it should.There is nothing courteous about the spamming that got the original attention. Encouraging people to do this is just going to help them get a rep for the wrong kind of behavior.


                Paul
                And Bradshaw, you deserve some serious applause for your honesty here. Your credibility just went through the roof with me, and I'm sure a whole lot of others.
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                • Profile picture of the author OnlineMarketingSys
                  Originally Posted by sanssecret View Post

                  Ok, now I'm confused.

                  Is it ok to ask members to review your product or not? I kind of thought it was ok, as long as you weren't spamming everybody and their dog.

                  Is it just the way this particular PM was worded that isn't allowed, is it because he didn't know any of you, or is it just that it's not ok to ask for reviews?

                  Thing is none of you have said you would (or did in this instance) report the person asking for a review so I'm assuming (still) that asking for them isn't against the rules but then I read Paul's post,

                  And Bradshaw, you deserve some serious applause for your honesty here. Your credibility just went through the roof with me, and I'm sure a whole lot of others.
                  Sure, you can ask for reviews (whether you know the person or not). It's ultimately up to that person now if he/she has the time and is willing to write a review of your product.

                  Allan or any moderator on this forum isn't going to give you a warning if your genuinely asking a fellow warrior for some honest feedback. And quite honestly, thats really part of being a part of a community/forum. If I have the time and expertise I'll generally review the persons product. Now some times I am literally swamped and simply don't have the time.

                  That said, as long as your not trying to intentional bribe the person or mentioning that he only "has to write a postive review" then your fine.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
                    Originally Posted by OnlineMarketingSys View Post

                    Sure, you can ask for reviews (whether you know the person or not). <snip>

                    That said, as long as your not trying to intentional bribe the person or mentioning that he only "has to write a postive review" then your fine.
                    To take this a bit farther it's advisable to research the person you're considering asking for a review.

                    Before even considering approaching someone with a review request check them out thoroughly. Read their posts, read their blogs. Look at their sales pages. Drop their names into Google, Bing and Yahoo. See what others are saying about them, if anything.

                    Look for people with similar interests to your own. If you've developed a product on affiliate marketing techniques look for people who are doing work in that area. And, not only experienced affiliate marketers, but also, people who have asked questions that your product has addressed.

                    If your product is technical in nature ask reviews of other, literate, techy types.

                    Ask questions. Participate in forum discussions where you can bring knowledge or a unique viewpoint to the table.

                    Become known as a generally nice guy--or gal.

                    Above all respect the time of those you ask for the favor of a review. Don't ask at 10:00 AM today because you plan to launch your WSO at 3:00 PM.

                    Most of this stuff is just common sense.

                    Elmer
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      • Profile picture of the author marketguy
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Please learn to read. I do believe that i wrote "an honest opinion," did I not?

        Would I mention that I received a review copy?

        Probably, but maybe not. It depends on whether or not I would consider it germane to the situation. I certainly would not consider it a "bribe."

        If I didn't like the product, I'd say nothing at all, other than to let the product owner know why.

        Making a living in marketing is difficult enough without me putting obstructions in someone's way.
        yes, but that in itself is a lie. your are given the job to review...do it!
        good or bad, you where asked to make a judgement!
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexander 2.0
    that's a good newbie lesson there Elmer. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing your side to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Maddi
    Thank you Elmer for starting this thread and Kudos to Bradshaw for the courage to step up. It really shows that you are not only a quick learner but a honorable, courageous man. Not only did you get the point but you stepped up and apologized openly and vowed to never do it again.

    This certainly isn't an offense punishable by death, but yes very annoying and more damaging than many think.

    Here is what happens,

    Social Proof is a vital part of any sales letter, wso or not. But what tends to happen is when we either invent it, or manipulate it. Bradshaw is miles ahead of people who actually 'invent' the social proof out of thin air and have glowing testimonials on reviews on the Salescopy. So yea, Kudos to Bradshaw for that.

    As for getting testimonials the way mentioned in the OP, its just plain annoying. Asking for a review without knowing the person, putting conditions in place, not even doing the homework on whether that particular person would be the best person to ask a testimonial from, taking their time for granted and actually coming across as giving YOU the testimonial would be a favor on YOUR part and not theirs. Yup, Annoying, unprofessional and plain novice.

    Some awesome tips on how NOT to ask for testimonials above so I'm not gonna go there.

    Instead, what we could use this thread as can be 'The Best Practice' for getting testimonials and reviews.

    Here is what you can do to begin with if you are an absolute beginner or a new member at the Warrior Forum:

    • Build relationships, make friends and remember their names.
    • Use the thanks button if you find a post helpful, reviving or humorous. People remember who is thanking them often.
    • Communicate on a personal level and strengthen relationships
    • Profile warriors when approaching to ask for a testimonial.
    Here is what you could ask yourself before asking someone else for a review/testimonial
    • Whose testimonial would best boost your sales and social proof.
    • Are the credible/authority in the topic area of your product
    • Do you have a relationship with them? If not, go for people you have already built a relationship with first.
    • Get people on your skype or any instant messenger through the forum to strengthen relationships
    • GIVE before asking
    • Find out if you can help them first
    • Do not pester when asking for a review
    • NOT EVERYONE will give you a review or testimonial so always go for more numbers than you need.
    • I've had close friends turn me down at times just because they were too busy doing their stuff
    • Do not feel defenestrated [had to use this word] and move on
    • Allow time [around 2 weeks before you launch], respect their time and follow up gently

    Hope it helps give anyone looking for reviews some pointers when going for testimonials and you learn something from it.

    Best Wishes,
    Maddi

    p.s. If you don't have time, simply post a wso and give out review copies, but be prepared that not everyone who takes a review copy will give you a testimonial and not everyone will be quick to do so either
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  • Profile picture of the author la dominatrix
    I am about to launch my first WSO and I will almost certainly ask at least a half a dozen Warriors whom I don't know and have never spoken to, to review it. Having read this thread I am more likely to pick Elmer than Steven. However before picking anyone I am likely to research that they have posted many posts in my topic area and that sensibly offer something of value at least some of the time.

    However, there will be no conditions I want an honest review and they will have the ability to decline, say something horrible or do nothing, as they will be asked to post the review themselves.

    If you believe in the quality of your product then it will not matter, and I do. At least bradshaw had the guts to own up there are hundreds of people on this forum who not have done so and he has learned from his mistakes and equally there are also hundreds that clearly have not.
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  • Profile picture of the author GoogleWarrior
    Or you could have gotten a free copy, read it, send him your review... and if he liked your review...you could have put yourself in a better position for being known as a go to guy who only gives reviews to quality products.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Don't you just love it when all works out! Kudos to Bradshaw from learning and moving forward. Big thanks to Elmer for posting this and bringing it to folks attention.

      I would also add that if you're asking someone to review your product or asking them to promote it and what-not... if you've selected them from your research then just send them the copy of the product as well instead of making them reply back to you. And personalize the message as much as you can and never set conditions.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I think that is a fallacy among newer members,ask and ye shall receive.
    My reviews and/or testimonials are based on my true opinion and can neither be bought nor dictated to.
    I will look at a product and say what I like or don't like,and the creator has a choice of using it or not. I really doubt many are going to use my review when it says "Your product is pooorly conceived,the market for such an item has been surpassed by newer technology,and your asking twice what it is worth."
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ken,
    Some guy asked for some help with his WSO.

    Hand out the torches to the peasants and storm the castle.
    Nice twist of the situation. It will probably work with people already prone to agree with you. The "peasant" comment was a nice touch, by the way. Transparent, but likely effective.

    It is policy that this approach is not allowed here. It's also in defense of people like Bradshaw, who may not be aware of the potential pitfalls in using "testimonials" gained this way.
    How do you end your membership here?
    The main way is to just stop visiting.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    I just got this PM:
    Hello Josh. I have finished creating a WSO but I would like some testimonials from some warriors. I've picked you as one of the people I would like to offer a review copy.

    I will offer this review copy on the condition that you:
    • PM me your testimonial (duh ).
    • Post that very same testimonial on the WSO page of the product.

    If you are interested, please reply to this message.
    This is an example of what NOT to do if you want the following:

    Trust
    Credibility
    Success

    Don't believe any testimonial you read... unless you personally verify its validity. Back in the day some gurus used to use giving lots of testimonials as a way of getting free exposure on tons of sites.

    Testimonial givers... don't cheapen your self.

    My testimonial is not for sale and it NEVER has been...

    That is why it has value :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Votoshka
      There is a difference between asking for a REVIEW and asking for a TESTIMONIAL. A person may wish to release a WSO, but first wants to know if it's good enough (especially if they haven't created products before). In this case, I don't see a problem with PMing a bunch of warriors and asking if they'd be prepared to review a product with the aim that you'll use their reviews to make the product better.

      For testimonials, once the product's been posted to the WSO forum you can offer a couple of review copies for honest responses!
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Bradshaw View Post

        I would like to issue a public apology. I am the one who PM'ed a number of members. I've already ...[snip]
        It takes a measure of courage and self-honesty to step forward as you did. I appreciate those qualities. You've provided two valuable lessons here. What not to do, and how to handle a mistake in judgment with class. I offer you a proverbial tip of the cap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    When do we know each other?

    I should make it clear from the beginning: I fully agree with the OP and with those who supported his stand. (Elmer, special thanks for clarifying the difference between reviews and testimonials!)

    However, after seeing several times the phrase "you must know the person"... I honestly began to wonder when can I say I know somebody from WF.

    Quick stats in this thread:
    a) personally met - 4 members (all of them at the same WF event)
    b) exchanged PM - +7 members (in addition to the above 4)
    c) only emailed occasionally - 1 member
    d) never contacted directly but we often end up giving "thankyou" for the same posts and usually have similar opinions; their avatar is already familiar; like to read their posts

    With a), b) and c) is relatively easy...

    What about those in group d)? I really feel as if "I know" some of them. But maybe they don't know me
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    • Profile picture of the author Ouroboros
      There have been a lot of replies to this excellent post so far and I don't have time to read them all, but here's my take on it.

      * If you're gonna pick somebody to review your whatever, at least try to pick someone you know or explain to them why they were chosen...

      * Ask them very politely to give you a Personal review. Don't insist on anything...after all, you need honest reviews at this point.

      I've had the opportunity to get a couple review copies of some WSO's lately and although you haven't seen my bubbling endorsement, I have hopefully helped a few warriors improve their offer or their next offer.

      I just finished cleaning my email accounts tonight, a lot of folks are gone...

      It's the same way with endorsements, if you have something of value people will say so...just don't go in insisting that they do anything.

      just my $.02
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  • Profile picture of the author AlanGNW
    I've just read through the thread, and it's all been covered whatever people's opinions. For me the OP hit it on the nail.

    However, I did feel I had to but in and give Bradshaw a pat on the back for having the balls to come out, apologize, and admit they made a mistake. Lesson learned. Takes a real man (or lady) to do that. Well done.
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil12
    Hi

    this is a great thread as I'm looking to get testimonials for an ebook I'm producing. I'm a member of one or two subscription sites and I'm planning to ask one or two people in our forum where I regularly post, plus also ask the guy who owns the site to do the foreward if he likes the book to give added credibility
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  • Profile picture of the author gotti3636
    I think the only testimonials that come across as being legit are ones from people who actually bought the product.

    Unless the product is really terrible, you will never see a bad review from someone who scored a free review copy of your product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
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      • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
        Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

        Actually, you probably never see a bad review because the product owner would have to be a real idiot to publish it
        Exactly!

        I got a few requests (from warriors that I've never heard about before) asking for a product review... and if they could use that review as a testimonial.

        Half of them disappeared when I replied telling that my review might be bad if I consider the product worthless. The other half agreed but never published my review because my review was along the lines: "this product sucks because..."
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

        Actually, you probably never see a bad review because the product owner would have to be a real idiot to publish it

        Of the number of "reviews" I've given products, only three were ever published!

        - Paul Barrs
        Note to Self: Don't ask Paul for a review....lol
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

        Actually, you probably never see a bad review because the product owner would have to be a real idiot to publish it

        Of the number of "reviews" I've given products, only three were ever published!

        - Paul Barrs
        Hi Paul,

        Sounds like you give the kind of feedback a real product creator loves to see. It helps improve the product.

        Note to self: Be sure to ask Paul for a review.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Hi Paul,

          Sounds like you give the kind of feedback a real product creator loves to see. It helps improve the product.

          Note to self: Be sure to ask Paul for a review.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Michael,

          Of course, I was only kidding with my comment....

          Unfortunately, the problem lies in the fact that many people could care less about actually improving their product. That would require some work. Sometimes there are legitimate 'short-cuts' and creative entrepreneurs can find them, however there are alot of people out there who have little interest in creating a quality product, that provides value, while forming relationships with people.

          Personally, I'd LOVE that kind of feedback...but, I think more productive feedback, rather than saying a product flat-out "sucks", is if the reviewer can actually point out specifc parts of the product that could be expounded upon or further developed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Bradshaw... I admire you for stepping up, you didn't have to.

    if you can get a review from Elmer it's golden in several ways. He's reviewed some of my stuff in the past and doesn't sugar coat it. If it's bad, he will tell you. If changes need to be made, he will tell you. He is one of those guys that actually gets back to you with constructive and helpful feedback, not just "good job". He is not out just to get a free product as many are.

    There are several people on this forum that give honest worthwhile feedback. If they like it they also will at times put a review in the WSO itself or give you one to use in a sales letter.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Before I get into specific comments, I want to get this off my chest. As a member who has a fair volume of posts, I get these requests from time to time. They tend to fall into two groups.

      First, and most numerous in my inbox, are the folks like Bradshaw. They are ignorant of how things are done, and they follow bad advice without knowing it's bad. I tend to give these folks a pass, as long as they prove they were simply ignorant by not repeating the error. Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.

      The second group is the one that pisses me off. They think I am so starved for free stuff that I'll whore myself out to get it. They replace ignorance with guile. A little flattery and a handful of electrons, and I'll put out for them. Many of them not only think I'm some kind of product whore, but a cheap one as well. Those people deserve to be banned or worse.

      On to more specifics...

      Originally Posted by Bradshaw View Post

      I would like to issue a public apology. I am the one who PM'ed a number of members. I've already PM'ed Elmer but I feel there is no need to hide my identity.

      First, my apologies.

      I apologize for the inconvenience. I PM'ed a number of members in the forum who I felt were more experienced; All War Room members.
      Bradshaw, you are showing some real class for making a real apology in public. Well done...


      Originally Posted by Bradshaw View Post

      Again, thank you for giving me this lesson, and my total and complete apologies for the inconvenience. I especially think you may have found the product interesting. It's a perspective that mixes quantum physics and internet marketing and from reading your forum posts I feel it's something that you might have particularly enjoyed.
      Had you eliminated the conditions and included something like this, I would have tried to make time to take a look. Most of us need a reason beyond a free ebook or video to invest our time.

      Originally Posted by gotti3636 View Post

      I think the only testimonials that come across as being legit are ones from people who actually bought the product.

      Unless the product is really terrible, you will never see a bad review from someone who scored a free review copy of your product.
      Keeping in mind the difference between a review and a testimonial, I agree with you. On the other hand, a review from a knowledgeable person can be very useful.

      Just as an example, a cookbook review from a professional chef could be quite useful in both selecting and marketing that cookbook. Even if the chef got the cookbook for free, and didn't use it to learn how to cook, their perspective is valuable.

      I think the same is true for IM products, especially those aimed at newbies. How many marketers sell something, wait a few days, then ask for testimonials - even though the product itself may state that results should be expected in weeks or months? Which would be more valuable in helping you select a product?

      > A glowing, excited testimonial from a newbie who doesn't know enough to judge the product and hasn't had time to find out if it really works or not, or

      > A reasoned, honest review from a reviewer who has been around the block a time or three, listing the strengths and weaknesses of the product based on their extensive experience in the area?

      I do agree that you'll seldom see poor reviews from people who do reviews from freebies. When I get such a request from someone, I often condition my acceptance with the idea that I will publish my review - good, bad or indifferent - on the WSO thread itself. The other choice is getting feedback on the product privately. Rarely does anyone choose the former...
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      • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
        On one hand, I agree with the OP - the dude sending him the email was asking for a quid pro quo to get a good testimonial, which isn't cool.

        On the other hand, I am little mystified at the antipathy at giving people free whatever so that they can review it. This is standard procedure everywhere; do you think that movie critics pay to see movies? That book critics buy their books? Heck, that the authors who give blurbs purchased the book? That Car and Driver buys new cars every month?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Justin,

          There are two separate issues here. The first is the "I'll give you this thing free, but only if you promise to say nice things about it when it goes on sale." That's dangerous turf to step into, legally. The second is PM spamming. That's not as big an issue in this case, but it's something to consider before you try it.

          The serious antipathy is over the first question. The rest is largely academic.


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          • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
            Last night I left this thread thinking it was so far off the rails as to never be righted. Therefore it was with great fear and trepidation I returned to it today.

            I'm pleased to see, that as with most things in life, my fears were unfounded.

            Bradshaw has proven to be a responsible person.

            He outed himself in the thread. He said, in essence, "I messed up, it was unintentional, I'm sorry. I will try to not do so in the future." There is no more you can ask of a person than that.

            One aspect of this whole thing is the total irresponsibility of marketers teaching this, in certain circumstances, possibly illegal method of borrowing credibility. I believe Jeremy and Paul both mentioned it.

            All this goes to show "due diligence" is not just a term used in large commercial transactions and litigation but is necessary in almost all we do.

            And, in case I haven't made it clear the OP was much less about Bradshaw than it was about a flawed methodology.

            Elmer

            PS. Anyone named "Bradshaw" can't be all bad. One of my all time favorite people is a fellow named Terry. Spent a very enjoyable several hours with him a few years ago. Possibly my only claim to fame.
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            • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
              Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone View Post


              PS. Anyone named "Bradshaw" can't be all bad. One of my all time favorite people is a fellow named Terry. Spent a very enjoyable several hours with him a few years ago. Possibly my only claim to fame.
              Oh that singer named Terry?

              Signature

              Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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              • Profile picture of the author Bradshaw
                *bump*

                Hi guys. Though I am far from inexperienced on the Internet, I never imagined my first dealings with you would be so explosive. It actually makes me very happy that circumstances have brought us closer together.

                Had I ran away from this opportunity, I would have basically been running away from a very important and useful life lesson. I'm very dedicated to personal growth and that is why I would not and could not allow myself to ignore this event.
                • I could have easily just quit the forum, made a new account and be done with it.
                • I could have stayed quiet and allow this thread to vanish.
                • I could have just apologized to everyone through PM and this lesson would have likely resolved itself in a similar way.
                But I will have none of that.

                I deeply believe that everything is connected with everything else and that includes us human beings. I act this in way in real life and of course I do the same in the online world. And while this may sound strange, there was a very deep motivation for making this public apology.

                If I had quit the forum, made a new account and be done with it, it would be akin to saying: "Screw you family; I'm gonna find another way to use you in my benefit."

                I could have stayed quiet and allowed this thread to vanish, but then that would be akin to saying something like: "Stupid family; Just be quiet and stop embarassing me."

                I have few posts at the moment. I could have ignored this thread, really. Elmer didn't even include my name on the original post. But had I simply ignored Elmer's thread, it would be akin to saying "Let's hope my right arm stops moving around so much."

                To me, coming here and stating my apology was basically saying: "I'm sorry family; I have done something that was not in your highest benefit and for that I apologize."

                Since you are my right arms; my family; my best friends; There was simply no way I as gonna just lay back and let you be hurt/insulted/annoyed. Like hell I would allow that to happen. I don't let that happen in real life and I certainly will not go around and do things that are not in people's highest good. As human beings we're all part of the same family.

                You warrior-people really are nice folks. I feel closer to you now.

                Now, who's up for a group hug? :p
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  • Profile picture of the author ajmorgans
    You made the right decision. A review shouldn't be setup... It should be about honesty from the product or service. Good or bad review, it should come natural from the person who uses the product or services, then takes his/her time to comment about it for others to see. I agree with you and I would have ignored that person as well.
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