Lies, Lies and More Damned Lies!

15 years ago

It is becoming rather annoying now as what you mention above has become the norm sadly. IM products also seem to have taken a nose dove as of late with all the inflated income claims etc. Lying seems to be becoming almost accepted now to get sales!

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depik Banned 15 years ago

Scarcity is a gimmick that has been going on for ages, and lately applied to our internet world..
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paulie888

15 years ago

The false scarcity game has been played to death, and has been going on since the beginning of internet marketing as we know it. I don't think this is fooling anyone (at least not anyone who has been on the scene for a while), but I guess this is an unwritten rule (about the necessity to proclaim false scarcity) that no one seems to want to break - the most egregious offenders here are the Clickbank IM products that seem to follow the same old proven formula time and time again!

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J Bold

15 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

The false scarcity game has been played to death, and has been going on since the beginning of internet marketing as we know it.

Beep! Wrong. (but you're also right)

It's been going on since the beginning of SELLING as we know it. It's an old technique since the beginning of selling that of course has been used when selling things online as it has worked forever. Creating a sense of urgency or scarcity, whether false or true. Used all the time in timeshare selling. The old school way of selling timeshares, at least, which some companies still use. You can only buy TODAY! We won't let you have this opportunity, tomorrow!

I worked selling timeshares and this was part of our tour. Now, was it true? Not really, they could have come back the next day and say they decided to buy and we'd gladly take their money. However, the thing with a product like that is only 1/10,000 buyers come back for that luxury membership to buy after the tour. So, it was kind of true, in that sense.

But yes, I think these days most people see through this as they are constantly being sold too. However, I think this technique is fine and dandy as long as it's TRUE. Physical stores do it all the time, have a limited time sale and they keep their word. Of course, you know they might start up the same deal in a few weeks time, but as long as they keep their word, it's fine. Of course, some are more shady.

But anyway, use scarcity. Use urgency. No problem, just don't lie about it. It works.

It's all up to your own testing, though, as these days some might like a fresh approach where you don't use these tactics. Just because it's a time old sales tactic, does not mean you have to use it every time you sell something. You may find it's more effective to not use it.

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JohnMcCabe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by cellcom

Hi Ray,

Your post gave me a good chuckle though as it reminded me of my last trip to Mexico. My wife and I decided to go on a timeshare tour. For those of you who have never been on one next time you are on holiday take one. Anyway, for those that have been on one you will know what I am talking about. The sales tactics used there remind me a lot of what I am seeing on the internet today with the false scarcity and the other tactics used.

If you really want to have some fun, wait until they pull out one of their tricks and then laugh at them. When they ask what you are laughing at, tell them. Then laugh again when they try to convince you you are wrong...

As for

"Grab Yours NOW! Only 140 (strick-through) 74 (strike-through)... 8 left!!"

I think it's a case of monkey-see, monkey-do - a feeble attempt to create both scarcity and social proof in one sentence.

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NicheMayhem 15 years ago

Unfortunately this falls into an area where I feel the tactic is associated with how many marketers flock to a high converting sales page to mimic it. In many cases they were told to mimic a high converting sales page by someone they were supposed to be able to trust and sits in the "knows all, sees all" chair.

Yet, when a tactic falls into a category where marketers will repeatedly just convince themselves "as long as it works" I think I see a trend where things are changing a bit. I see a very solid comparison of this tactic and oh let's say, the no controls in videos tactic. Many marketers will simply argue, it converts better and therefore who cares if it feels slimy to some people.

You know what the underlying truth is with this sort of stuff being used and that response covering up the negative aspect?

Marketers who repeatedly trade off integrity for tactics, just might think their customers are stupid for buying any of their products in the first place. I highly doubt there is a sincere bone in their body and let me tell you, to create a worthwhile product you really do need to sincerely have the desire to help people and teach people what you know, not for glory, not for self assured superiority, but for the sake of helping and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it. There truly is nothing more peaceful and fulfilling and sadly many people go their whole lives with a self centered focus which blinds them from the true rewards life has to offer.

Ever hear the phrase "money can't buy happiness"...? I often wonder how many people think that is wrong.

With the web 2.0 aspects of the internet growing exponentially and the complete transparency needed to stay competitive I have a feeling the old mom n pop sincerity which was the basis for successful business in the old days is coming back, which side are you on? Probably a good idea to realize it isn't hard for people to associate you and your business with what they know of sales tactics regardless of how many who know no better still buy from you. To each their own though, scarcity is workable when it is sincere and in some cases it is necessary. Produce value don't just convey it and success will find you.

Just my .02, and to the OP...great thread!
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- sirtom 15 years ago
  
  Ya know, it's because of the things that have been said in this thread that make me appreciate marketers like Frank Kern.
  
  When he's selling stuff, he's totally legit. He uses persuasion tactics the right way, but also (via Mass Control) teaches and encourages you to use those tactics in the right way as well.
  
  If you're going to use scarcity and methods of the sort, there needs to be a reason behind it/them. If you're selling a digital product, don't say there's only X left because it's a digital product. If you're going to increase the price, I'm down, or if you're going to take it down in a week that's cool too.
  
  But regardless, in a transparent world where everyone is connected and word travels as fast as a 140-character tweet can be send out, if:
  
  -You say you're taking a product down in a week and 2 weeks later it's still up...
  -You say there's only X left (period) of a digital product...
  -You outright lie in your copy/marketing...
  
  ...Then hey, it's your reputation at stake. Fixing what will be way more than the extra few sales you would have made are worth.
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

It's called fake scarcity ... but the funny thing is .... no one really believes it anyway, or at least most people don't, and I can't really say that the tactic bothers me. I just accept it as part of marketing and don't pay any attention to it ... unless

and here's the unless part. If a product is the type of product that saturation makes a difference and the seller is offering a limited quantity, and I buy it and then find out that they're selling it to everyone and their mother, then I'm going to be really mad.

Other than that .... pfffft ... who cares?

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tpw

15 years ago

LOL, you are probably just too cynical to see the value in those BS claims!!!

Originally Posted by paulie888

The false scarcity game has been played to death, and has been going on since the beginning of internet marketing as we know it.

Well, I don't know about "since the beginning of internet marketing", but definitely since Frank Kern and his fellow Guru Syndicate members started selling their $2000 packages...

What they usually miss telling you is that "we are only selling 5,000 copies at $2,000 -- after that, chances are that we will give it away for free!!"

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EBiz81

15 years ago

I think 95% of the time it's nothing more then a scare tactic to get more buyers.

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thebitbotdotcom

15 years ago

My conscience will not let me use the terminology "Limited Supply" on a digital product.

Obviously if they keep making money with the product, they will continue to sell it.

Plain and simple.

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adrianwinston

15 years ago

Originally Posted by raycowie

I suppose it was inevitable, but I've reached an age where cynicism comes quite naturally to me. I try to fight it off, but it comes with it's big best friend - disbelief - and 2 v 1 ain't a fair fight!

In the time I've been 'into' Internet Marketing', of course I've read hundreds, nay thousands of sales letters. Some enthralling some galling, some of the authors need mauling!

Might someone explain how this so-called 'teaser' works please...

On some sales letters, it states - 'Only 250 left' (scored out) followed by 'Only 140 left' (also scored out) and finally - 'Only 7 left - Buy Now!'

Now, that's all well and good and may in fact be true, but then you scroll to the bottom of the page and there's a link to an affiliate program?

Huh?

What I'd like to know is - what the blazes are affiliates supposed to be 'selling' to prospects if there are only 7 left!

Thanks peeps, Ray

LMAO, I too have to agree. Seeing that makes my day, like who is this guy trying to fool?

Although many people can fall for it, and notice after are enticed in the program haha.

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jazbo

15 years ago

Of course scarcity is false if the seller wants it to e. Its all about trust and integtrity. I always limit my linkpacks and blogpacks to maximise the return for the buyers and I never exceed the amount I state for sale.

Recently I went through a personal trauma when I released 2 extra copies of a course I had limited to 30. I had loads of people asking, so in the end I mailed out and said there are two more, first two get it. I felt akward about that, but its not like the guys who say "10 copies" only and then sell a million.

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GenerousBoy

15 years ago

well of course it bull, isn't it. how can a digital product be 'sold out' anyway. it can be reproduced infinitely. it's just that old 'scarcity' tactic everyone uses willy nilly. Gets on my nerves too - and yet, it often works.

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Martin Luxton 15 years ago

This tactic works and people make money from it.

From an early age we learn people will often lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want. So why are you surprised by these kind of offers?

People do this. We find it distasteful/horrifying/disgusting but we can't stop it. So don't waste your time thinking about - get on with your creating your own ethically-run business.

Martin
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Lloyd Buchinski

15 years ago

Originally Posted by raycowie

but then you scroll to the bottom of the page and there's a link to an affiliate program?

Huh?

What I'd like to know is - what the blazes are affiliates supposed to be 'selling' to prospects if there are only 7 left!

That scarcity tactic must have reached a peak a few days ago with 'Auto Traffic Avalanche.' I might not remember the details exactly, but it was a $39 product that was only going to be sold to 340? people. (Feel completely free to sort me out if I get anything wrong)

But when you clicked through to the affiliates page, The prize for the top affiliate making the most sales was $5000, and more prizes after that.

Besides that, just having an affiliate link itself at the bottom of the page is a negative point. It might not be a big leak and if everything else is good, I'll overlook that, but especially when people want to internet market, it is a leak.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

I just wrote an article about this called "You're Going To Internet Marketing
Hell Missy".

As somebody just pointed out, a top product at Clickbank, with a gravity
of like 1,200, supposedly is only going out to a few hundred people.

How stupid do they think we are?

Eventually, if this sh*t doesn't stop, this whole industry is going to come
crashing down on our heads.

Mark my words...retribution day is near.

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theemperor

15 years ago

I purchased a WSO once for $27 with the price displayed on that WSO-Pro thing. The button said something like:

"Only 1 available at this price ($27)"

After I purchased it the price did indeed go up ... to $28 :rolleyes:

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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by theemperor

I purchased a WSO once for $27 with the price displayed on that WSO-Pro thing. The button said something like:

"Only 1 available at this price ($27)"

After I purchased it the price did indeed go up ... to $28 :rolleyes:

Damn ... just when you were expecting Lies, Lies and More Damned Lies, the system failed.

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megabuck4u 15 years ago

If you are in the internet marketing business, before you join them in using this "Lies,...Lies" strategy, ask yourself if you are interested in make just one sale from your customer, and s/he keep bad mouthing your business to others, or making a sale to a customer that will be happy to refer your product to others.

Imagine buying a product that the salescopy say 7 copies remaining and after several months, you visit the site again, and you still see the same 7 copy remaining. Are you going to bad mouth or refer people to the product?
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- sirtom 15 years ago
  
  Haha I totally agree with your frustration. But "scarcity" and a "sense of urgency" sell, being a couple of the most powerful influencing factors in sales.
  
  On a side note, one of my personal favorites is something along these lines:
  
  "I'm going to be taking this offer down very soon... It could happen at any time!"
  
  ...followed soon after by:
  
  "Limited Time Offer! The price will be going up VERY soon!"
  
  ...And the cherry on top (still on the same sales page):
  
  "Grab Yours NOW! Only 140 (strick-through) 74 (strike-through)... 8 left!!"
  
  So what is it gunna be? Are you taking the last 8 copies down or jacking their price up? And why bother with only 8 left?
  
  Haha I always chuckle to myself when I see that...
  
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Gary King

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I just wrote an article about this called "You're Going To Internet Marketing
Hell Missy".

As somebody just pointed out, a top product at Clickbank, with a gravity
of like 1,200, supposedly is only going out to a few hundred people.

How stupid do they think we are?

Eventually, if this sh*t doesn't stop, this whole industry is going to come
crashing down on our heads.

Mark my words...retribution day is near.

Yes Steve, but there's always fresh meat cycling through for them to feed upon.

NOT saying it's right, just saying it will likely continue because of the cycle.

P.S. - did you send the article to your list? Would like to see it if not. If so, I'll check my email.

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discrat 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Eventually, if this sh*t doesn't stop, this whole industry is going to come
crashing down on our heads.

Mark my words...retribution day is near.

I seriously doubt that !
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madmike133

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I just wrote an article about this called "You're Going To Internet Marketing
Hell Missy".

As somebody just pointed out, a top product at Clickbank, with a gravity
of like 1,200, supposedly is only going out to a few hundred people.

How stupid do they think we are?

Eventually, if this sh*t doesn't stop, this whole industry is going to come
crashing down on our heads.

Mark my words...retribution day is near.

Totally right

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madmike133 15 years ago

Echoing the previous post :

The day of retribution is nigh!
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cellcom

15 years ago

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the post. Yeah, it's getting a little out of hand. Unfortunately, it does work so that is why we see it again and again.

Your post gave me a good chuckle though as it reminded me of my last trip to Mexico. My wife and I decided to go on a timeshare tour. For those of you who have never been on one next time you are on holiday take one. Anyway, for those that have been on one you will know what I am talking about. The sales tactics used there remind me a lot of what I am seeing on the internet today with the false scarcity and the other tactics used.

And I agree with Steven and have been telling people the same thing for some time - apparently the last go around with the FTC wasn't enough to get people's attention, but if the crap keeps up like it has they will be back soon.

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Zorkster178

15 years ago

Yeah the truth pays off in the long and even short run.

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mcmahanusa 15 years ago

@Ray....You've voiced something I've wondered about many times. It's hard to buy the "limited number" of something when there is an affiliate program being promoted.

Not that I care, if the product is worthwhile, but it's value is lessened by these tactics.

On the positive side of the coin, there are a number of marketers who truly are selling only a limited quantity of a product. Even if the price goes up as more are sold, the sales stop at a specified number. A Warrior whom I admire greatly follows that formula. The downside of that is if I procrastinate I either (1) pay more than I want or (2) miss out entirely on the product. And that I really hate, since I love his products.

"I'm going to stop procrastinating tomorrow".
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Zeus66

15 years ago

I started noticing some Warriors using obvious false scarcity tactics in WSO's a few months ago, and I made a little list. It grows just about every month by a few new names. They don't know they're on it (unless they're reading this and they're guilty), but they'll never get a penny from me.

In my book, any marketer who'd stoop to these tactics (lying, essentially) isn't concerned with providing value in their products. It's all about making a buck. Now, I love making money, but I will not do so at the expense of my own integrity. And I prefer to buy only from others who exhibit similar principles.

John

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Karen Blundell

15 years ago

how is limiting your offer a lie?

Sometimes marketers limit their offer so that their offer doesn't get saturated like in the case of marketing PLR material, or in the case of coaching sessions, you only want to work with a certain number of people at a certain price as a special deal, or because you know you only have the available time to work with that amount of people.

Not all marketers who use scarcity tactics are actually lying. I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

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Zeus66

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

how is limiting your offer a lie?

Sometimes marketers limit their offer so that their offer doesn't get saturated like in the case of marketing PLR material, or in the case of coaching sessions, you only want to work with a certain number of people at a certain price as a special deal, or because you know you only have the available time to work with that amount of people.

Not all marketers who use scarcity tactics are actually lying. I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

Because there's REAL scarcity and then there's FALSE scarcity. One is perfectly legit, of course. The other is a sign of an unethical marketer.

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raycowie

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

how is limiting your offer a lie?

Sometimes marketers limit their offer so that their offer doesn't get saturated like in the case of marketing PLR material, or in the case of coaching sessions, you only want to work with a certain number of people at a certain price as a special deal, or because you know you only have the available time to work with that amount of people.

Not all marketers who use scarcity tactics are actually lying. I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

Karen, I was merely pointing out there are those who say they only have a few of their product left, but then have an affiliate program attached to it. And that simply can't be right... can it?

Ray

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Greg Jacobs

15 years ago

There are ways you can do scarcity without it being "false"

1 - Have a limited timeframe when it will be sold
2 - Have a defined limited number
3- Have an undefined limited number "Limited Copies..."
4- Have an upcoming price increase

The cold hard FACT is that you NEED scarsity to sell like CRAZY. (and it doesnt have to be false or a lie, just intelligently and ethically built into your marketing plan)

the reason being is that to MAKE ALOT OF SALES. We need to bypass peoples Logical centers and go directly to their emotions.

The "problem" is that people will read a sales letter, get excited and ready to purchase and then the "little voice" pops up and says... well this is great and all etc... but maybe I should wait...do more research....ask somebody...read reviews.... see if I really want it...

Ok. these are fine and all because they will lose you sales. People just get distracted and forget the emotional buildup that made them want to purchase in the first place.

So what we want to do is FORCE them into a

"YES OR NO" Decision

"maybe" or "later" is not acceptable and loses sales.

The way we do this is via scarcity and forcing them to either take action or get off the pot.

P.S. Interestingly enough, even though I understand it WELL and enact it on my own sales processes, I am still a ploy to it myself. Even if my logic understands what is going on, my emotions are stirred and have a mind of their own...

proper real life example. (depending on where you live) remember the iphone4 launch.. people waiting in lines etc....

well.. let me tell you a secret, Apple had like a billion waiting in their warehouse, but just time released it to keep consumer buzz at the highest.

Now even if you "knew" this already, your emotions still went into a frenzy and "had to have it today"
(assuming you are the target market)

so the lesson is to learn from it and do it.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Greg Jacobs

There are ways you can do scarcity without it being "false"

1 - Have a limited timeframe when it will be sold
2 - Have a defined limited number
3- Have an undefined limited number "Limited Copies..."
4- Have an upcoming price increase

The cold hard FACT is that you NEED scarsity to sell like CRAZY. (and it doesnt have to be false or a lie, just intelligently and ethically built into your marketing plan)

the reason being is that to MAKE ALOT OF SALES. We need to bypass peoples Logical centers and go directly to their emotions.

The "problem" is that people will read a sales letter, get excited and ready to purchase and then the "little voice" pops up and says... well this is great and all etc... but maybe I should wait...do more research....ask somebody...read reviews.... see if I really want it...

Ok. these are fine and all because they will lose you sales. People just get distracted and forget the emotional buildup that made them want to purchase in the first place.

So what we want to do is FORCE them into a

"YES OR NO" Decision

"maybe" or "later" is not acceptable and loses sales.

The way we do this is via scarcity and forcing them to either take action or get off the pot.

P.S. Interestingly enough, even though I understand it WELL and enact it on my own sales processes, I am still a ploy to it myself. Even if my logic understands what is going on, my emotions are stirred and have a mind of their own...

proper real life example. (depending on where you live) remember the iphone4 launch.. people waiting in lines etc....

well.. let me tell you a secret, Apple had like a billion waiting in their warehouse, but just time released it to keep consumer buzz at the highest.

Now even if you "knew" this already, your emotions still went into a frenzy and "had to have it today"
(assuming you are the target market)

so the lesson is to learn from it and do it.

I have NO problem with TRUE scarcity in units or time span. I use them all
the time in my marketing.

What I have a problem with is outright lies.

Don't tell me 50 units and then sell 100 or 1,000.

Don't tell me until next week and have the sale going on forever.

Pick the scarcity you want for your product and stick to it.

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source47

15 years ago

Just a marketing game. Creates "scarcity". There are also the sales pages that say "This will only be available until [date]. The [date] is just a javascript app that is set to x amount of hours from the time that a visitor sees the page.

I think that all of these type of internet marketing tricks have been over done. But they have worked for as long as they have.

Just a couple of my thoughts.

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activetrader

15 years ago

There is a lot of it indeed. It annoys me when I see a limited copies claim and that they are flying off the digital shelf, then come back to the same page later and there is still the same number of copies at that same price.

You have to always remember that if you are selling to your list, they will hold you to your claims.

This is why when I say I am only selling a limited number of copies at that price I stand by it. I do raise the price after and I know I am not going to sell as much at a higher price ....

BUT...

I have by now trained my lists to believe when I make limited copies claim because I do what I say... Those who miss out on a sale come back later and see that discounted copies are no longer available...

Another option is to offer a limited number of bonuses. Say, you are launching a new product at $XX.XX price. The first 50 or 100 buyers will get the bonus that others won't. Say it and DO it.

Another thing is when you give a freebie to your list... Most people look at freebies that whatever is free lacks value. You can add scarcity to your free offer by limiting the time frame when your freebie is available.

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christineconte

15 years ago

Originally Posted by activetrader

There is a lot of it indeed. It annoys me when I see a limited copies claim and that they are flying off the digital shelf, then come back to the same page later and there is still the same number of copies at that same price.

You have to always remember that if you are selling to your list, they will hold you to your claims.

You are so right - you can fool people once or twice... but they catch on quickly! And playing the kinds of games you're mentioning is one of the best ways an Internet Marketer can alienate a person who has actually been willing to give their email address...

I wish people would understand - you have to protect your email list! The basic rule of thumb is: if you would appreciate being treated a certain way, then do it to your list... But if you wouldn't want that done to you - why would you do it to your list of potential buyers / subscribers / referrers!! :confused:

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raycowie

15 years ago

Originally Posted by activetrader

There is a lot of it indeed. It annoys me when I see a limited copies claim and that they are flying off the digital shelf, then come back to the same page later and there is still the same number of copies at that same price.

You have to always remember that if you are selling to your list, they will hold you to your claims.

This is why when I say I am only selling a limited number of copies at that price I stand by it. I do raise the price after and I know I am not going to sell as much at a higher price ....

BUT...

I have by now trained my lists to believe when I make limited copies claim because I do what I say... Those who miss out on a sale come back later and see that discounted copies are no longer available...

Another option is to offer a limited number of bonuses. Say, you are launching a new product at .XX price. The first 50 or 100 buyers will get the bonus that others won't. Say it and DO it.

Another thing is when you give a freebie to your list... Most people look at freebies that whatever is free lacks value. You can add scarcity to your free offer by limiting the time frame when your freebie is available.

An excellent point and also a great way to gain trust with your list.

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rmax777

15 years ago

A perfect example of false scarcity is "Blog System X" I am still getting emails for that thing and there was only supposed to be 250 copies sold! LOL
An example on the other side would be "Info Prodigy" who did "close the doors" on sales, at least for now. Wonder when they will relaunch?

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talfighel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by raycowie

On some sales letters, it states - 'Only 250 left' (scored out) followed by 'Only 140 left' (also scored out) and finally - 'Only 7 left - Buy Now!'

Almost everyone is using this technique to get more and faster sales. I know that it is a lie but it works.

I also know a few GURUS who really offer "only 100 left" of their new product and when they do reach that number, they do take their offer off. So some are really not lying about how many of their program they are willing to sell.

I don't think that this will ever stop.

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benrpalmer

15 years ago

The problem is that the whole scarcity tactic works so damn well....

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Ephrils

15 years ago

I've got ad copy blindness now.

I just ignore all that stuff. I check what the product does, if I can benefit from it, and the price. Everything else in the ad copy I've seen and read 1000 times.

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MilesT

15 years ago

Its shameful. I don't trust those who use that as a tactic to lure in the noobs, and I wont buy from them. Its basically the product creator admitting they don't think their product or sales letter have the merit to make the sale, so they lie about it.

Yes, some really do have limited supply of products, bonuses or whatever. But most who use this scam tactic are just scam artists. Hope its not you.

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madmike133

15 years ago

Hi Ray

Your dead right, no many fluffers and BS`s in IM selling rehashed junk you can go dizzy and broke if you took all the advice . Best way is to carefully select a product, look for truthful reviews ( not review sites as they are just doing a review so you will buy the product) look on social forums, research it completely before parting with ANY money.

Don`t be sucked in with the sales page, and limited run, "only so many left" crap, research it for yourself.

M

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techinik

15 years ago

Its not that everybody lies. Some do have limited copies but anyway this is just a trick some marketers use.

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Lies, Lies and More Damned Lies!

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