Anyone Use NLP Persuasion Techniques?

123 replies
I have been reading up on Covert-Hypnosis and NeuroLinguistic Programming (NLP)

Though Subliminal Messaging for use in advertisements is illegal, i think. Has/does anyone use any of the techniques taught by NLP practitioners to sell products.

I think EVERYONE should use the techniques to build a great Rapport with their customers. But what about things like anchoring, or asking people to visualize.

I could see these techniques working great, if you could somehow anchor your page/product with someones feeling of happiness or excitment - this would help your sales surely.

Im sure this would be quite difficult, and im not sure if its aloud, but im also sure it would go under the radar.

Any thoughts on this?
#nlp #persuasion #techniques
  • Profile picture of the author Bearded
    Frank Kern talks a lot about NLP, and definitely utilizes some basic NLP techniques in his launches.

    Tony Robbins uses NLP *extensively* in both his techniques for personal development and removing barriers, as well as in his selling.

    Also Blair Warren and Harlan Kilstein are big into NLP in marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    There are plenty of copywriters and article writers that use NLP with varying degrees of success. Some actually market themselves as NLP Copywriters.

    It could be argued that any good copy/article, whether the author is aware of hypnosis/NLP or not, will have its fare share of hypnotic language patterns scattered amongst the text.

    Peter

    N.B. This post should probably be moved to either the Mind Warriors or the Copywriting forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
    Harlan Kilstein *excuse me for the spelling...) uses NLP. He claims to be very successful, but who doesn't?
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    • Profile picture of the author kevindawson
      Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

      Harlan Kilstein *excuse me for the spelling...) uses NLP. He claims to be very successful, but who doesn't?
      Dr. Kilstein'stuff on NLP is awesome. I'd recommend his NLP Copywriting I and II.

      I always wondered why I wanted to buy his stuff when he wrote about it. It's because of him I became a copywriter! He's done a lot for my career.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    studying NLP and persuasion literature will generally
    make you a better marketer - more aware of the
    subtleties of good communication.

    Some of the better stuff I've read on the subject of
    persuasion doesn't mention NLP - which is something
    of a brand name anyway.

    I did read one ebook some online marketer put out
    about hypnotic language patterns. It was idiotic -
    I guess he was trying to use the patterns to sell
    his course, but he just came across as somebody who
    couldn't write clearly.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
    I got certified as a practitioner years ago and love this stuff. I don't consider myself a pro by any means but I can tell you this...it simply works!

    The most powerful core elements that I've found to work online is simply the understanding that people are often times more 'away from' than 'towards' motivated. There is a concept from evolutionary psychology that supports this called "automatic vigilance"...while at one time it was very useful for humans to notice negative things (survival)...it's one of the reasons we sometimes have the tendency to focus on the negative and be more oriented in that way.



    DISCOVER THIS SECRET OR YOUR HEAD WILL EXPLODE AND YOUR FAMILY WILL DIE

    ...is much more powerful

    than

    WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO HAVE A TON OF MONEY

    ...unless that ton of money was linked to keeping your head from exploding or your family from dying.

    that's my 2.5c on the topic


    - Sean
    Signature
    Sean Mitchell -
    Online Marketing & Tech Consultant Since 1999
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  • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
    The more you use NLP Persuasion Techniques the more persuasive you will become
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Originally Posted by Kyle Tully View Post

      The more you use NLP Persuasion Techniques the more persuasive you will become
      Profound... ;p
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Thompson
    I'm certified in NLP and Ericksonian Hypnosis. I trained in Ericksonian Hypnosis under Dr. Mike Mandel in Toronto.

    My course (see signature file) is about using these tools for parents who are dealing with the Terrible Twos (and beyond). It simply works, in all aspects of life. Very powerful stuff.

    I also highly recommend that you read Dr. Robert Cialdini's book "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion".

    It is in my top 5 books list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Teenage Genius
    thanks for all the replys, advise and information warriors.

    I am going to focus a good portion of my daily routine to studying NLP, Persuicon, Hypnosis and all the rest of it from this day forward, it will no doubt be a very useful tool to sharpen.

    Anyone know of any FREE resources and information/training bases purely on writing articles/internet marketing/copy writing/sales letters?
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      You know what pisses me off?

      All the people using BAD NLP and claiming it works.

      It doesn't and it pisses people off.

      You know the type. The idiots and morons who write something like...

      BY NOW, YOU'RE ASKING YOURSELF how you can BUY MY PRODUCT RIGHT NOW.

      Yeah and as a special bonus tonight only you can have Yankee Stadium free.

      If you are going to use NLP, use it ethically or don't use it at all.

      Use it with class or don't use it at all.

      Use it elegantly so you they never notice the credit card number is being typed into the screen while they read.

      Last year I taught NLP Copywriting I with all of the big name copywriters there.

      It was impressive. Carlton, Garfinkel, Deutsch, Lampropolis, Voiles

      It rocked.

      And it made all these guys believers.

      I can tell you all of these guys have studied NLP intensively.

      But don't dick around with it.

      Use it with care and if you haven't been trained in NLP, please don't tell people you use it.

      It gives it a bad name.

      NLP Copywriting III will take place next year and I'll be revealing some breakthroughs in persuasion techniques including some new video ideas that totally bypass the conscious mind.

      Peace.
      Signature

      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
      http://overnight-copy.com
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      • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
        Hi Harlan.

        The issue about NLP and hypnosis and whether their use is 'ethical' is a subject I've noticed gets quite a bit of airing.

        I think your statement below might confuse some folk:
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        If you are going to use NLP, use it ethically or don't use it at all.

        Use it elegantly so you they never notice the credit card number is being typed into the screen while they read.
        Some might argue that these two statements are contradictory. Care to explain or expand?

        Cheers

        Peter
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

          Hi Harlan.

          The issue about NLP and hypnosis and whether their use is 'ethical' is a subject I've noticed gets quite a bit of airing.

          I think your statement below might confuse some folk:

          Some might argue that these two statements are contradictory. Care to explain or expand?

          Cheers

          Peter
          Peter, it's called irony. :-)
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          Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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          • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Peter, it's called irony. :-)
            You obviously practice irony so 'elegantly' I didn't see it.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    I qualified as a master NLP practitioner way back in
    the 80's and I've studied with a few of the leading
    NLP teachers including Bandler and Dilts.

    I agree with Harlan that NLP should be used ethically.

    NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
    to manipulate people.

    Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
    drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

    If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
    self development tool.

    The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
    able to communicate with others.

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post


      NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
      to manipulate people.

      Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
      drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

      If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
      self development tool.

      The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
      able to communicate with others.

      John
      That is one amazing quote.

      It made my day.

      Thank you.
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      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
      http://overnight-copy.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Teenage Genius
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      I qualified as a master NLP practitioner way back in
      the 80's and I've studied with a few of the leading
      NLP teachers including Bandler and Dilts.

      I agree with Harlan that NLP should be used ethically.

      NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
      to manipulate people.

      Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
      drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

      If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
      self development tool.

      The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
      able to communicate with others.

      John

      This is exactly what i want to do.

      For a while now i have been fasinated by the human mind. By how everything in the universe, past,resent and future is all energy vibrating at different frequencys, and how thoughts turn into reality.

      I want learn mind control, all areas of the subject. I really want to master it, to first master my own mind and 'know myself' and increase my productivity and what not, and then go on to use it as powerful persuision tools.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    The co-founder of NLP, Richard Bandler, wrote a book on the subject, called "Persuasion Engineering". Some of the stuff he says he got up to in the book probably skirted the borderland of Ethical more than a few times

    Incidentally, this book goes, in my opinion, way beyond traditional "NLP" and shows you how to really think out of the box when it comes to sales and marketing.

    So apart from my copywriting videos, I'd suggest the best place to learn how to apply NLP to sales and marketing, is from the horse's mouth.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Paul, I don't know you.

      You don't know me.

      But I look at your WSO and....

      you're doing the stuff I write against.

      The use of embedded commands "get this now" or implanting regret in the reader
      are just not the kinds of ethical NLP I teach.

      It's using NLP as a party trick.

      And even worse.

      People catch that crap like switching colors to embed the command and they
      feel manipulated.

      NLP should be much more elegant.
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      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshua Houghton
      I am a certified Hypnotist and I agree Bandler and Grinder are good places to start. For convert hypnosis check out Kevin Hogan and Igor Ledowski or however you spell his last name lol.

      His course is The power of conversational hypnosis and is beyond good.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Originally Posted by Joshua Houghton View Post

        I am a certified Hypnotist and I agree Bandler and Grinder are good places to start. For convert hypnosis check out Kevin Hogan and Igor Ledowski or however you spell his last name lol.

        His course is The power of conversational hypnosis and is beyond good.
        I was sent Igor's covert hypnosis set to review before they were published.

        I had previously bought (and returned) his book on Deep Trance.

        I buy dozens of books from Amazon each week. Way too many to count.

        In my life, I have returned only one book - Igors. Pure crap.

        I called the person promoting the set and after listening to the first few CDs told him this guy was a BS artist and to redo the set.

        On the other hand, Kevin Hogan's work is excellent.

        And what ever you can get of Dave Dobson's is gold.

        I just transcribed a rare seminar of his on persuasion. I think it is going to be published soon.

        Mastery in action.

        Peace.
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        Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
        Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
        http://overnight-copy.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Maria Gudelis
    One of my best landing pages, selling a 4 figure bootcamp, the headline started with "Imagine...",

    got that one from my Agora ad copy swipe file!

    NLP is incredible, I learned from taking courses, watching/studying the best closers on the real estate seminar circuit...

    ...and find it very powerful to use on a teleseminar..."You do want to start the New Year, $xxx wealthier don't you?"
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by miaroman View Post

      NLP is incredible, I learned from taking courses, watching/studying the best closers on the real estate seminar circuit...

      ...and find it very powerful to use on a teleseminar..."You do want to start the New Year, wealthier don't you?"
      And you don't want to be seen as manipulative, do you?

      This is grade school NLP crap.

      The yes set and tag questions and bobbing your head up and down like a bobble head
      all had their place when Willie Loman was selling.

      Get elegant.
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      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Hi Harlan

    I certainly respect your viewpoint, but I haven't had ANYONE yet express to me that they felt manipulated when they read my copy.

    On the other hand, I've had people express that they were excited about it.

    Surely an NLP teacher such as yourself should not speak in generalizations such as "People... they feel manipulated". Isn't that mind-reading?

    I am making a serious point, though. I've heard the same argument leveled against just about EVERY sales tactic that has ever been used.

    Besides, NLP is not an "art", it is a "science" (ask Bandler). So I "get" where you're coming from, but fail to see your point about "elegance". Bandler certainly wasn't "elegant" when he talked about the time he sold cars, sitting behind them in the back seat and saying, "You want this!" (among many other non-elegant NLP tactics he used.)

    Yet he sure sold a whole lot of cars

    In my opinion, I suspect that most of the people who read my sales letter don't feel manipulated at all, because if they DO notice the embedded stuff, it probably intrigues them, and if they DON'T notice it, it affects them, they buy, and then they want to know what motivated them to buy (which is fully explained).

    Personally, I could say I feel manipulated by your post, which denigrates the "idiots and morons" who are, according to you, using NLP badly, while pitching the next version of your product, as superior.

    But I won't say I feel manipulated, because I admire the skill of how you anchored bad feelings to your "competition"... very skillful!

    Totally manipulative (in my opinion), but very skillful nonetheless.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

      Bandler certainly wasn't "elegant" when he talked about the time he sold cars, sitting behind them in the back seat and saying, "You want this!" (among many other non-elegant NLP tactics he used.)

      Yet he sure sold a whole lot of cars
      Bandler never sold a car in his life.

      When Bandler teaches most of it is "tall tales" he uses to install states in the audience.

      You didn't believe the stories did you?

      For B & G, change is all about state.

      Change the state and you change the person. That's why the Physiology of Excellence is all about.

      (I only threw that in because you accused me of pitching product and since I didn't, I might as well not miss the opportunity to make a buck.)

      My friend and co-teacher Kenrick Cleveland teaches on Max Persuasion that you can "get away" with a lot of things with NLP.

      But the day you get caught red handed trying to manipulate someone, you'll never forget the spanking you will get verbally or non-verbally.

      David Blaine the magician recently performed an amazing feat of magic suspending himself upside down in Central Park.

      People were astounded until picture appeared of him taking long breaks.

      Then he was going to disappear in front of everyone.

      Except his stage crew forgot to wind up his bungee cord and he was caught swinging back and forth looking rather stupid.

      Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get nailed.

      John and Richard were never my favorite NLP teachers anyway.

      My favorite "official" NLP teacher is David Gordon - now he is artistry in action.

      And my favorite "un-official" NLP teacher was the late Dave Dobson. A cranky old S.O.B., the sneaky ******* changed people way below the radar with such elegance, such art, and such compassion I'll always wonder how much more I could have learned from him.

      Dave didn't think much of the language patterns you used.

      About embedded commands he once said, "the only time I want to use in bedded commands is in bed with a woman."

      I miss the ******* and he hasn't been gone a year.

      Any way, back to your story.

      Bandler was installing states through brute force.

      He could be so freaken elegant as he is in some of his recordings or when he wasn't high on cocaine.

      All of his live trainings - and especially Persuasion Engineering - are metaphoric.

      It can be reduced to: Induce Wanton Buying State - point in the direction of product.

      How you do it separates elegance from blunt object.

      At NLP Copywriting I David Garfinkel did one of the exercises in the class with such elegance that when he finished reading it, everyone in the room wanted to buy what he wrote and he didn't even have a product in mind.

      Now that was artistry.

      And I propose all people who use NLP strive to reach that level.

      Especially one who aspires to teach it to others.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
        Hi Harlan

        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        Bandler never sold a car in his life.

        When Bandler teaches most of it is "tall tales" he uses to install states in the audience.

        You didn't believe the stories did you?
        Yes I believed the stories because they are told as experiences. Please tells me in the book where he explains to his readers they are "tall tales".

        If they are not true... then he was being manipulative. (But strangely I don't feel manipulated!)

        But the day you get caught red handed trying to manipulate someone, you'll never forget the spanking you will get verbally or non-verbally.
        Well, this all comes down to what you consider to be "manipulation". Obviously you have set yourself up as the arbiter of what is manipulative, and what is not.

        And my favorite "un-official" NLP teacher was the late Dave Dobson. A cranky old S.O.B., the sneaky ******* changed people way below the radar with such elegance, such art, and such compassion I'll always wonder how much more I could have learned from him.
        That's great. However, it sounds like he's using NLP in a therapeutic/healing context. The original poster was, however, discussing NLP in the context of selling products.

        Besides, he "changed people way below the radar". So you're saying that if it's "below the radar" it's not manipulative, which implies that if it's above the radar it is?

        Dave didn't think much of the language patterns you used.

        About embedded commands he once said, "the only time I want to use in bedded commands is in bed with a woman."
        Dave is certainly entitled to his opinion.

        It can be reduced to: Induce Wanton Buying State - point in the direction of product.
        Sure, but you don't think that's manipulative? LOL.

        ALL of the techniques Bandler and Grinder (or Bandler and La Valle in "Persuasion Engineering") could be viewed as manipulative by some people.

        Sliding anchors? Associating bad things to the competition? Embedded commands and ambiguities? These are ALL part of his book.

        At NLP Copywriting I David Garfinkel did one of the exercises in the class with such elegance that when he finished reading it, everyone in the room wanted to buy what he wrote and he didn't even have a product in mind.

        Now that was artistry.
        Artistry, yes. But a classroom is not a marketplace and he didn't actually sell any products in this example - just a hypothetical product that all agreed to hypothetically buy.

        Mind you, your examples do show me that many of even the top copywriters also have a lot to learn.

        When I worked in direct sales, I had lots of people who promised to phone me back in the morning to place their order.

        Most never did.

        That's why we were taught to sell on the day. We quickly learned the difference between what people say they will do, and what they actually do.

        And I propose all people who use NLP strive to reach that level.
        The inherent danger of your viewpoint is in elevating selling and copywriting to the level of art.

        Yes, there is a certain amount of artistry in them both, but art is ultimately about showmanship, and this isn't what selling is really about. When we craft a sales letter, we're not writing to impress other copywriters or fellow marketers, we're writing to sell the product.

        Or we should be.

        In reality, many copywriters ARE also writing to impress potential clients, and other copywriters.

        It then becomes an ego thing; who's sales letter is more "elegant", "artistic" etc.

        Besides, "elegance" and "artistry" are all subjective things. I happen to love Beethoven's music, but I know others who think he was just one big noise

        Who is right? The answer is, art is subjective, so both are right.

        After you spoke for the entire human race on what they should find manipulative, I think you'll find reality doesn't work like that.

        To give you an example, I know lots of happily married people who tell the story of how they first met.

        Most of the time one of them used things which many others might consider manipulative... maybe a cheesy chat-up line; an attempt at seduction; or something that was only ever meant to be a one-night-stand.

        And yet because the OUTCOME was a happy marriage, the story of "how he used that lame chat-up line on me" or "she seduced me" or whatever, becomes just a story...

        ... they don't feel manipulated because the OUTCOME was ultimately right for them, and what they wanted.

        What is my point here?

        Personally, I hate chat-up lines. I think they're cheesy, and some would even say manipulative. Yet how many long-term relationships were started because of one? A lot more than people think!

        It's because even manipulation is a subjective thing. One person might view chat up lines as manipulative, and then end up in a happy, loving relationship that started because of a chat-up line!
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Wow you've written so much and so well I will try to respond in kind.

          Bandler never says they the stories are lies. The more you break down the stories and the more time you spend with him, the more you see what he does.

          Bandler does this on numerous levels.

          1. Tonality - Bandler changes his tonality constantly and is a master at it. He uses his tone to annoy or soothe. His goal is to move you from whatever state you are in. If you are comfortable, he wants you upset. If you are angry, he wants you calm. Listen to him speak to a room. He is setting multiple tonal anchors throughout the training. And at the end of the training, he collapses all the anchors to produce change.

          2. Non-verbal analogical marking: Bandler is a whiz at this. He makes all kinds of sounds in his training to anchor these states. Again, he brings them to a crescendo at the close.

          3. Joking: Bandler is funny to watch. He has a routine worked out perfectly. Joking is the perfect modality to change state. Watch what he does AFTER the joke.

          4. Metaphor: All of these tricks he conceals in his stories. If you ask them if they are true he will say something like; pull your head out of your ass and walk off.

          Got to run now but I'll comment on some other points you made later on.
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      • Profile picture of the author tommyfocus
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        Bandler never sold a car in his life.

        When Bandler teaches most of it is "tall tales" he uses to install states in the audience.

        You didn't believe the stories did you?

        For B & G, change is all about state.

        Change the state and you change the person. That's why the Physiology of Excellence is all about.

        (I only threw that in because you accused me of pitching product and since I didn't, I might as well not miss the opportunity to make a buck.)

        My friend and co-teacher Kenrick Cleveland teaches on Max Persuasion that you can "get away" with a lot of things with NLP.

        But the day you get caught red handed trying to manipulate someone, you'll never forget the spanking you will get verbally or non-verbally.

        David Blaine the magician recently performed an amazing feat of magic suspending himself upside down in Central Park.

        People were astounded until picture appeared of him taking long breaks.

        Then he was going to disappear in front of everyone.

        Except his stage crew forgot to wind up his bungee cord and he was caught swinging back and forth looking rather stupid.

        Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get nailed.

        John and Richard were never my favorite NLP teachers anyway.

        My favorite "official" NLP teacher is David Gordon - now he is artistry in action.

        And my favorite "un-official" NLP teacher was the late Dave Dobson. A cranky old S.O.B., the sneaky ******* changed people way below the radar with such elegance, such art, and such compassion I'll always wonder how much more I could have learned from him.

        Dave didn't think much of the language patterns you used.

        About embedded commands he once said, "the only time I want to use in bedded commands is in bed with a woman."

        I miss the ******* and he hasn't been gone a year.

        Any way, back to your story.

        Bandler was installing states through brute force.

        He could be so freaken elegant as he is in some of his recordings or when he wasn't high on cocaine.

        All of his live trainings - and especially Persuasion Engineering - are metaphoric.

        It can be reduced to: Induce Wanton Buying State - point in the direction of product.

        How you do it separates elegance from blunt object.

        At NLP Copywriting I David Garfinkel did one of the exercises in the class with such elegance that when he finished reading it, everyone in the room wanted to buy what he wrote and he didn't even have a product in mind.

        Now that was artistry.

        And I propose all people who use NLP strive to reach that level.

        Especially one who aspires to teach it to others.
        So there are people who can teach NLP better than the creators (RB and JG)??? lol
        Didn't your friend, Kenrick Cleveland, get certified ( all the way up to trainer) by Richard Bandler?? Who taught David Gordon?? lol
        Since Bandler is the co creator of the field you claim expertise on, should not he and John Grinder really be the ones who determines what is consider elegant or not??
        I say this, because it is pure comedy to hear second and third generations nlp practitioner claim superiority to Richard Bandler and John Grinder. All the greats; Wyatt Woodsmall, Tad James, Tony Robbins, Eric Robbie, Kenrick Cleveland, etc was trained by Richard or John. That ought to tell you something about the ability their to teach and their effectiveness.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Originally Posted by tommyfocus View Post

          So there are people who can teach NLP better than the creators (RB and JG)??? lol
          Didn't your friend, Kenrick Cleveland, get certified ( all the way up to trainer) by Richard Bandler?? Who taught David Gordon?? lol
          Since Bandler is the co creator of the field you claim expertise on, should not he and John Grinder really be the ones who determines what is consider elegant or not??
          I say this, because it is pure comedy to hear second and third generations nlp practitioner claim superiority to Richard Bandler and John Grinder. All the greats; Wyatt Woodsmall, Tad James, Tony Robbins, Eric Robbie, Kenrick Cleveland, etc was trained by Richard or John. That ought to tell you something about the ability their to teach and their effectiveness.
          There are definately people who can teach NLP better than Bandler & Grinder.

          B&G taught basic NLP better than anyone when they were a team. I have some old audios of them working together.

          But over the years, Bandler wouldn't let Grinder speak (I have it on tape) and they split up.

          Bandler's drug use and his murder trial didn't do anything to advance his credibility.

          Bandler went into his DHE mode and Grander went into his New Code.

          Neither of them are teaching NLP today.

          Pick up any recent article Grinder has written. Read it. I rest my case.

          Bandler today is great entertainment but not great NLP.

          His one on one sessions are amazing but his group work is old recycled trash.

          For all his work with sub-modalities, they were discovered and developed by David Gordon.

          Who got punched in the mouth by Bandler.

          Yeah, there are better teachers out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author williamstarrett
    Harlan, when you say elegant, you don't mean calling attention to someone else's work as an example of "how not to do" something as a way to establish contrasts and attention to yourself, do you?

    Just curious.

    Your physiology DVD was great btw.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by williamstarrett View Post

      Harlan, when you say elegant, you don't mean calling attention to someone else's work as an example of "how not to do" something as a way to establish contrasts and attention to yourself, do you?

      Just curious.

      Your physiology DVD was great btw.
      Not at all.

      When I see elegance in someone else's work I'll stand up and applaud it.

      Doug O'Brien

      Jonathan Altfeld

      Dr. Sulo

      the late Dave Dobson

      David Gordon

      Stephen Gilligan

      Kenrick Cleveland

      the late Virginia Satir - grace & elegance with a lot of compassion

      and probably many more.

      I am their student.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christie Love
    I have used EFT, Hypnosis, NAC, and NLP. Currently, I only perform self hypnosis and EFT on myself. Both of these techniques help me to gain clarity and focus, which allows me to write faster and with much more intent than if I did not use anything at all.

    I encourage anyone to use these techniques, especially if they experience "Writer's Block."
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    • Profile picture of the author Adam Kenzington
      Originally Posted by Christie Love View Post

      I have used EFT, Hypnosis, NAC, and NLP. Currently, I only perform self hypnosis and EFT on myself. Both of these techniques help me to gain clarity and focus, which allows me to write faster and with much more intent than if I did not use anything at all.

      I encourage anyone to use these techniques, especially if they experience "Writer's Block."
      You are so right about EFT. I use it on myself and others with great results. I love the person that says "It only works because you believe in it". I tell them "You are my favorite type of person to use this on, because you don't believe in it, yet...But you will"... and they do.

      You can't deny the results. It works for both physical and emotional pain. Great Stuff!
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    • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
      Originally Posted by Christie Love View Post

      I have used EFT, Hypnosis, NAC, and NLP. Currently, I only perform self hypnosis and EFT on myself. Both of these techniques help me to gain clarity and focus, which allows me to write faster and with much more intent than if I did not use anything at all.

      I encourage anyone to use these techniques, especially if they experience "Writer's Block."
      I use EFT and self-hypnosis too, and have taught my kids a few EFT things too to help open "mental blocks" to use, especially for test-taking.

      [quote=MaskedMarketer;233747]
      Kevin Hogan also says the majority of NLP techniques being taught/used are un-scientific, un-proven, and may cause opposite effects. quote]

      I also know quite a bit about NLP and NAC (among a few others), although I'm not certified in NLP(yet). I've had guys try to use it on me, and they're usually in for a surprise when it doesn't work...Talk about causing opposite effects Kind of fun to play along with their "game" at times though...that is if I can keep from rolling my eyes or laughing :p


      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      I agree with Harlan that NLP should be used ethically.

      NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
      to manipulate people.

      Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
      drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

      If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
      self development tool.

      The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
      able to communicate with others.

      John
      I couldn't agree with you more. I do agree with both you and Harlan that it should be used ethically.

      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

      Shut up Dave.

      What do you know.

      Using NLP to get the most beautiful women in the world to go to be with you.

      With YOU of all people.

      Tell everyone it doesn't work.

      Tell them it's illegal and the NLP Police will get them.

      Tell them to buy my stuff.

      Well as Meatloaf said, "Two out of three ain't bad."

      Cya.
      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


      I strong DO NOT recommend a newbie train with Richard Bandler.

      I don't normally use this language but he will F*** with your mind. Without permission.

      Peace.
      This got me thinking...a lot of these dating "gurus" from what it seems (since I don't own their courses, of course) teach guys NLP et al to use on women...how many of them or what do you think the possibility is that these "gurus" also employ these techniques in their presentations & products on the guys who buy them to manipulate or "convince" them that their "lifestyle" is the only way their clients/followers will ever be able to experience ultimate happiness and love in their lives?
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      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

        This got me thinking...a lot of these dating "gurus" from what it seems (since I don't own their courses, of course) teach guys NLP et al to use on women...how many of them or what do you think the possibility is that these "gurus" also employ these techniques in their presentations & products on the guys who buy them to manipulate or "convince" them that their "lifestyle" is the only way their clients/followers will ever be able to experience ultimate happiness and love in their lives?
        You mean, would they use ultra sneaky ultra effective (except on you) persuasion techniques to sell to their clients?

        Damm straight they do.
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        • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          You mean, would they use ultra sneaky ultra effective (except on you) persuasion techniques to sell to their clients?

          Damm straight they do.
          Thank you Harlan. I started figuring that out some time ago, but never could find someone certified in NLP to confirm it...until now. And, if you ask any of their "followers" anything to the contrary, they'll of course, defend what they've "learned" because they've had some success with it which in turn becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that their lifestyle is 'real' and the promised dreams they were sold will come true.

          It's a shame to think of how many men out there who are learning from these "gurus" will end up giving up the REAL thing with a woman because in "learning" to get what they want, they actually ended up being unknowingly "brainwashed" themselves into always wanting MORE, rather than appreciating what they have...because, after all, these dating "gurus" are really ingenius marketers who understand that the longer they keep their clients/followers convinced that this lifestyle is the ONLY way to go, the more money they can make selling their ideas/products to these guys. But, karma will eventually catch up to these "gurus" just as it did with Stephane of Ideagasms because what they sell actually goes against what love is really about.

          As a side note... if anyone does/or is considering using NLP et al. on a person for the sake of getting him/her to date you (or whatever else you're looking for) this is a form of manipulation/control (the ego's domain) and is not a matter of the heart (no matter how much you may have been "convinced" it is)...because the heart knows only unconditional love which is given freely. So, if you are employing these techniques on others in order to find love, you are really doing nothing more than conducting a "business transaction" with that person.

          Namaste

          This is bj reporting on location about NLP and dating...back to the studio with you Harlan
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post


            As a side note... if anyone does/or is considering using NLP et al. on a person for the sake of getting him/her to date you (or whatever else you're looking for) this is a form of manipulation/control (the ego's domain) and is not a matter of the heart (no matter how much you may have been "convinced" it is)...because the heart knows only unconditional love. So, if you are employing these techniques on others in order to find love, you are really doing nothing more than conducting a "business transaction" with that person.

            Namaste
            Oh I could tell you stories about this that would make your head turn like Linda Blair in the Exorcist.
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            • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Oh I could tell you stories about this that would make your head turn like Linda Blair in the Exorcist.
              Believe me, I can begin to imagine and it just sickens me to think that these guys are being convinced that this is just a way to learn how to meet and get women.

              What amazes me the most is that the guys who are following these "gurus" lead can't step back or realize that the same techniques they are learning to use on women are, at the same time, being employed on them by their "trusted" mentors. And, there are some very intelligent guys who are being pulled into this "community". But, IF these "gurus" REALLY LOVE & APPRECIATE women, and believed themselves that the TRUE LOVE the SOUL seeks REALLY EXISTS then don't you think that they would be helping men learn how to discover and cherish it, rather than selling them ways to control/manipulate women under the pretense of "all the love you "deserve" and could ever dream of having" is possible if you follow me (and get my product). These "gurus" aren't much more than target-marketers who have mastered learning how to craftily employ "mind-control" techniques to sell their ideas/products.

              And...she steps down off her soapbox:p

              back to you Harlan
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  • Profile picture of the author Adam Kenzington
    I am a NLP Practioner level "Student". I love the Study of Persuasion & Influence. But, I have to say that I find NLP, per se, quite useless in the real world. (I know, I'm pissing some people off, here, but, hear me out).

    Most people attend NLP training and are enchanted by it, but even if they have some small success in the seminar setting, they typically find that they can't make it work the way it is supposed to in real world situations.

    Let's face it, if NLP was the great modality that it's defenders claim it is, why aren't these same people living the successful life they claim it offers?

    I dismiss NLP because I only want to use what gets me results in the real world. I feel I wasted my time and money in the study/pursuit of that skill. Now, I am glad I explored it, as it rounded out some of my understandings, but I had all the understanding I needed way before I got my Practioner's Certificate.

    Although, there are many things that work. I just don't believe NLP is one of them. Matching & Mirroring...that doesn't gain you rapport, it is a bi-product of having rapport. Matching breathing & blink rates, what B.S. that is. It's too much work for minimal results. There are much easier, more effective ways.

    I test things to see if I can get results with them. If I get the results, I keep it. If I don't get the results, I discard it. I am not emotionally attached to any technique that doesn't give me results.

    So many defend NLP to their dying breath, but are they actually getting the results they were promised? Even Bandler, when it isn't working for him (he'll be in front of an audience, and) will tell the person who claims the change hasn't happened, that the change has been installed on an unconscious level. Good save there, buddy!

    A couple of my favorite trainers are Tom Vizzini & Kim McFarland of Essential-Skills.com fame. There techniques work like gangbusters...and Harlan will be glad to know they do it in an elegant, seamless way that just gets the results. I also like Jamie Smart (from the UK). He is very talented, but he does teach alot of NLP, along with hypnotism and Influence.

    I attempted to do a MySpace Blog on this, but I'm useless at Web 2.0 things, and was never able to figure out how to get the blog seen.

    I was wanting to start a forum style group to train in result-getting techniques. I'd still like to do that.

    Here are the first two posts I did:


    To be able to Influence anyone you must be able to Capture and Lead their Imagination

    Have you ever wanted to influence or persuade someone? Of course, everyone has. How'd that work out for you? For most people it is hit or miss. They try "talking someone into" something by trying to convince them, arguing, using reason, showing them facts and figures, etc...

    I'll let you in on a secret - THAT DOESN'T WORK! all those "techniques" will be perceived by the person you are trying to influence as coming from outside of themselves. So, even if it is in their own best interest, they will resist it.

    You're probably thinking, "OK, Adam, what do I do, then?" I'm glad you asked.

    RULE 1: To be able to influence anyone you must be able to CAPTURE AND LEAD their IMAGINATION.

    Whatever you can get a person to IMAGINE is perceived by them as BEING THEIR OWN THOUGHT and therefore they DO NOT RESIST IT.

    That is worth reading again. I'll wait here.

    Did you get that? Good. Put another way:

    Let them Imagine it and it Becomes their Own Idea! Capture the Imagination and you capture the heart.

    People will only do things once they first IMAGINE doing it.

    On this blog we will be learning and practicing very suggestive ways of speaking that does capture and lead people's imaginations while still sounding like "normal" conversation. We will be giving people intense emotional experiences by involving all 5 of their senses.

    This is Powerful! It a form of covert hypnosis. Done right, they will never see it coming. As far as the person you are influencing is concerned, they are having a normal conversation with someone who happens to be a fascinating conversationalist. They feel good!

    Important note: We will always strive to sound "normal" when speaking. You don't want to be thought of as "That weird guy that talks funny". So many trainers teach it that way. Most people's first impulse when hearing you talk THAT way is to "grab the kids and run!" It's just creepy.

    We on this blog will NEVER talk like that.

    Next - People don't want "things" so much as the FEELINGS those things and experiences will give them. Having said that, we come to rule 2...

    RULE 2: When influencing anyone, find out what their Ultimate Goal is and Lead Them through the States that get them to that goal, by doing what You Want.

    Now, we should always strive for Win/Win situations. We don't want to be unethical, here. But let's face it, when you are persuading someone, you want something. What could be better than helping someone get what they want by doing (and/or giving you) what you want?

    We will be learning "State Control", "Rapport", "Calibration", "Anchoring", "Language Patterns" that allow you to create states on the fly, and all things Covertly Influential.

    Much of this we will be doing with language. Words are Containers for Power! Learn to use your words in a certain way and you become very powerful, indeed.

    We are going to be covering all these things. AND we are going to be doing homework. (I heard you groan. Don't worry, this will be fun!) Each week I will be "assigning tasks" for you to "play" with, with the people you come in contact with in your daily life. We will be reporting back to the group about our experiences and get helpful input on how to "tweak" it to be easier/more influential. You will not be graded on this, but there will be tests ;-)

    So, if this sounds like something you would like to do, just subscribe to this blog and we will get started. Imagine how powerful your influence skills will be as you easily and naturally apply these techniques to get what you want. Because when you use these skills, people cannot help but want to do the things you suggest. And, because you are using these skills for win/win outcomes, people will always feel better for having been in your presence. As you learn these techniques, you will notice that your relationships (and finances) will improve more than you could ever have imagined.

    Come on in and join our elite group. Become the "go to" person that everyone seeks out when they need to convince somebody, of anything.

    We will be getting started in a few days. I look forward to working with you.

    Until then, Trance-On!
    I'm,
    Adam Kenzington


    Listen For People's "TRANCE WORDS"

    When you want to make sure what you are saying is registering with the person you are talking to, listen for and use that person's "Trance Words".

    Trance Words are words and phrases that the person uses habitually (repeats often in conversation).

    When you notice what these words are, repeat them back to them exactly as they spoke them.

    There is an activity out there called "Active Listening" which practices listening to what someone said and then reinterpreting those words (paraphrasing) them into similar language. DON'T DO THIS! You will be shooting yourself in the foot. This will jeopardize your rapport with the person.

    These "Trance Words" have Power and hold Great Emotion & Feeling for those who spoke them.

    Don't re-interpret their words!

    How many times have you said, or heard someone else say "That's not what I said!" "You are putting words in my mouth!"? You will come across as someone who doesn't listen and has twisted the facts to suit your own purposes.

    Using their own words is not only safe, it's Essential! These are the very words they think with, and their very own words resound clearly and personally with them. You are talking their language. Talk about Instant Rapport! They will think to themselves "This guy makes sense. He get's it. I need to listen to him...", "I can trust what he says".

    Remember...

    If the Magic Word is "Abra Cadabra", it ain't goin'a work with "Ala Kazaam"!

    On a similar note, take notice of the physical "gestures" someone makes when they are speaking. The way they gesture with their hands, a tilt of the head, or perhaps they lean forward when making a point, etc...

    Then, when you want to make a point, use these same gestures back at them while doing this. This is perceived by the person as "marking out" something important that they should pay attention to. It also unconsciously creates and reinforces rapport with the person. Remember, "People like people who are like themselves".

    By using these techniques you will gain great influence with these people. You will be speaking their language and setting yourself up, in their mind, as an Authority Figure. Someone they will pay greater attention to, while at the same time, they will not question your message as critically because you have already passed their "smell test". You will have established trust and belief within them, and you will more easily bypass their critical thinking, their "bullshit detector", if you will. Not that you will be slinging B.S., but your message will more easily and naturally be accepted as "truth", and acted upon with less resistance.

    OK, that's it for today. Next time we will be studying "Intention", and how it is critical in all interactions with others. We will also be touching on "States" and "State Control".

    If you have any questions on this, please feel free to ask them here, or at: adam@trance-formers.com

    Until next time, try this stuff out for yourself,
    I'm,
    Adam Kenzington


    I believe Persuasion & Influence techniques do work, but NLP as it is traditionally taught, I find very limited with regard to positive results.

    PS. I know someone is going to point out that I bashed Matching & Mirroring and then advocated doing it in my blog post. Please note, words and movements that people use habitually (and unconsciously) are different than mimicking their breathing & blink rates. Focus on the habitual movements not the involuntary ones. Also, you don't need to do these things at the same time the other person is doing them (as taught in NLP), these are actions/words that are triggers (anchored) for these people. Fire them off when you are making your point. Use them strategically.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Adam Kenzington View Post

      Although, there are many things that work. I just don't believe NLP is one of them. Matching & Mirroring...that doesn't gain you rapport, it is a bi-product of having rapport. Matching breathing & blink rates, what B.S. that is. It's too much work for minimal results. There are much easier, more effective ways.
      I can't vouch for your level of training or skill.

      But if you want to see beauty and artistry, get Virginia Satir: Patterns of Her Magic and get the video the book is based on.

      Now come back and tell me it's all B.S.

      I think what you should do is go back to your trainer and say sincerely, "It's not working for me."

      And let them determine your callibration skills.

      Because getting in touch with someone's breathing is the single most effective thing anyone can do to create rapport.

      And it ain't just NLP.

      I just completed a yoga teacher training and when a teacher wants to work with a student, first they start breathing with the student.

      Seriously dude, go back to your teacher and say, "I'm missing a piece."

      Because if you missed this, you probably missed the heart of NLP.

      Rapport IS NLP and you can never have too much rapport.
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  • Profile picture of the author Teenage Genius
    Don't surpose anyone knows of anyone near Ipswich in the UK who could help me...
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    • Profile picture of the author davemiz
      its not illegal.... and its being used A LOT by big ad agencies.

      mcdonalds has been using them on tv spots on food network for the last few years.... really evil stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Shut up Dave.

        What do you know.

        Using NLP to get the most beautiful women in the world to go to be with you.

        With YOU of all people.

        Tell everyone it doesn't work.

        Tell them it's illegal and the NLP Police will get them.

        Tell them to buy my stuff.

        Well as Meatloaf said, "Two out of three ain't bad."

        Cya.
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
      Originally Posted by StevenBird View Post

      Don't surpose anyone knows of anyone near Ipswich in the UK who could help me...
      Unfortunately, nothing is near Ipswich!! LOL

      No, seriously, there's probably some practice groups in and around your area. Seek out the UK NLP forums and you may get lucky with meeting people. Be careful though, a lot of practice groups are full of people like Harlan is warning you about.

      Peter
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      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

        Unfortunately, nothing is near Ipswich!! LOL

        No, seriously, there's probably some practice groups in and around your area. Seek out the UK NLP forums and you may get lucky with meeting people. Be careful though, a lot of practice groups are full of people like Harlan is warning you about.

        Peter
        Jonathan Altfeld and Doug O'Brien travel through GB quite often. Jonathan's site is Mastery InSight Institute - NLP Neuro-Linguistic Programming Seminars and Resources - Top Site Page and Doug is at Neuro Linguistic Programming and Ericksonian Hypnotherapy - Douglas O'Brien and Associates

        I strong DO NOT recommend a newbie train with Richard Bandler.

        I don't normally use this language but he will F*** with your mind. Without permission.

        Peace.
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        • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
          Originally Posted by Joshua Houghton View Post

          I am a certified Hypnotist and I agree Bandler and Grinder are good places to start. For convert hypnosis check out Kevin Hogan and Igor Ledowski or however you spell his last name lol.

          His course is The power of conversational hypnosis and is beyond good.
          I have not yet been certified, but influence is more of an obsession for me and have many , many, videos, audios, books, and trainings regarding influence.

          I'm more interested in influence as a whole and have been looking deeply into NLP as a result.

          Kevin Hogan is probably one of my favorite influence teachers. Not only do his methods work for selling/copywriting. His audio hypnosis tapes actually work, real well. Specifically his course on Personal Mastery and his Course On Metaphors. Both are excellent.

          Kevin Hogan also says the majority of NLP techniques being taught/used are un-scientific, un-proven, and may cause opposite effects. Although I don't have his NLP course, so I couldn't compare his teachings vs. someone elses.

          I hear his Science Of Influence course is real good and thats the next course of his im picking up.
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          • Profile picture of the author IMLegacy
            I'm using NLP persuasion techniques right now. As a matter of fact, I just convinced you to buy one of my products within the next 30 days, and you didn't even know it.

            Amazing! This stuff really works. Thanks in advance for your business.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
              Originally Posted by IMLegacy View Post

              Thanks in advance for your business.
              Thanks in advance for the refund :p

              John
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              • Profile picture of the author IMLegacy
                Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

                Thanks in advance for the refund :p
                Ha! You got me. Thanks for the laugh.
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer View Post


            Kevin Hogan also says the majority of NLP techniques being taught/used are un-scientific, un-proven, and may cause opposite effects. Although I don't have his NLP course, so I couldn't compare his teachings vs. someone elses.
            That is so true.

            My doctoral study was one of the first to prove an NLP concept worked.

            It was a complex test of therapeutic metaphor.

            Stephen Gilligan's work at Stamford was impressive.

            He did some odd 28 tests and all worked.

            I could go on about this but Kevin has a good point.

            Peace.
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            • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              That is so true.

              My doctoral study was one of the first to prove an NLP concept worked.

              It was a complex test of therapeutic metaphor.

              Stephen Gilligan's work at Stamford was impressive.

              He did some odd 28 tests and all worked.

              I could go on about this but Kevin has a good point.

              Peace.
              Exactly, NLP works and what Kevin mentioned is some of it isnt proven.

              What that is- well maybe you have to buy his course to find out, I dont know

              Since I haven't done tests myself, I rely on others like Hogan, yourself, and others for there tests.

              Everyone has there own agenda. And if a technique or whatever, poduces a desired result for one person over and over, then use it.

              Testing in anything is key, and when trying to influence, one should always test.

              Even if someone says it doesn't work, you should always test yourself.

              You never know. We can produce new ideas and results this way.
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            • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              That is so true.
              It was a complex test of therapeutic metaphor.
              Metaphors intrigue me.

              Is there a more poweful way to change a belief or behavior than metaphors? I've been trying to get my hands on a lot of metaphor stuff.

              Whats a good course/book for learning about terapeutic metaphors and for metaphors in selling? I appreciate it- thanks...
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              • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer View Post

                Metaphors intrigue me.

                Is there a more poweful way to change a belief or behavior than metaphors? I've been trying to get my hands on a lot of metaphor stuff.

                Whats a good course/book for learning about terapeutic metaphors and for metaphors in selling? I appreciate it- thanks...
                The definitive book on therapeutic metaphors remains David Gordon's book, Therapeutic Metaphor. His video series available at that url is excellent.

                Unfortunately, the NLP model was therapeutic. In 2009, David and I will be presenting on therapeutic metaphors for persuasion.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kenneth Smith
                  Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                  The definitive book on therapeutic metaphors remains David Gordon's book, Therapeutic Metaphor. His video series available at that url is excellent.

                  Unfortunately, the NLP model was therapeutic. In 2009, David and I will be presenting on therapeutic metaphors for persuasion.
                  Harlan, you've made of lot of powerful comments to help us understand your viewpoint, many quite valid I believe.

                  However, I must say that while you may be good at persuasion using therapeutic metaphors, you're pretty darn good with the straight talk too!

                  Kenneth
                  (Certified Master Practitioner of NLP)
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                  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                    Originally Posted by Kenneth Smith View Post

                    Harlan, you've made of lot of powerful comments to help us understand your viewpoint, many quite valid I believe.

                    However, I must say that while you may be good at persuasion using therapeutic metaphors, you're pretty darn good with the straight talk too!

                    Kenneth
                    (Certified Master Practitioner of NLP)
                    I should dig up and post my famous coffee metaphor.

                    But then you would all buy my product and they would delete my posts.

                    Shhh. Can't sell anything here....

                    Maybe if I delete the links...
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                    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                      Found it:

                      Subject Line: How Coffee Saved A Marriage

                      A number of years ago, Michael, a good friend of mind was
                      going through a rough time in his marriage.

                      It wasn't that he and his wife fought.

                      It was more like guerilla warfare.

                      It was exhausting to both of them.

                      Going to marriage counselling didn't work at all.

                      If anything, it made things worse.

                      But in a crazy way, they were still madly in love with one another.

                      I know. It makes no sense at all. But they loved one another even
                      though they fought all the time.

                      On one thing they agreed - their kids. They never argued about
                      their kids.

                      They argued about finances, where to vacation, what to have for
                      dinner, what movie to see, what video to rent, and what they
                      should wear for an evening out.

                      It was like their fighting was keeping them together.

                      Until one day, Michael changed. He told me he was tired of fighting.

                      It was taking too much energy.

                      He was ready to call it quits and move on.

                      When I asked him why, his answer was, it was taking too much energy
                      to fix his marriage.

                      That's where the coffee came in.

                      You see this was in the days before green signed coffee shops dotted
                      the landscapes.

                      If you wanted a good cup of Java, you brewed it yourself.

                      So I asked Michael,

                      Do you drink just any coffee?

                      "No, I only drink the good stuff."

                      So you never drink instant?

                      "Never. I don't even consider it coffee."

                      What coffee do you drink?

                      "I like Kona and Jamaica Blue Mountain."

                      Restaurant coffee?

                      "On etremely rare occasions."

                      So how do you make coffee?

                      "First I buy the best beans and keep them in an airtight container
                      in my freezer.

                      Than I grind them right before I brew the coffee."

                      Why?

                      "Because the flavor gets weak if you grind the beans too far in advance."

                      And how do you brew the coffee? An electric percolator?

                      Michael turned up his nose, "And ruin the coffee? No way. Coffee
                      must be dripped for perfection."

                      So you pour the coffee through a filter and brew it?

                      "Well I only used unbleached filters. I don't want traces of bleach
                      in my coffee."

                      Is there a method to pouring the water?

                      "First it's only spring water and we pour it rather slowly and wait
                      for the water to seep through the coffee before adding some more."

                      Than I got to the main question, "Isn't that a lot of work for
                      coffee?"

                      He said, "If you care about something, it's worth the extra effort."

                      That was all the therapy I did.

                      Next time I saw Michael, he told me he was going to stay and work it
                      out. He looked at me and winked, "If you care about something, it's
                      worth the extra effort."

                      What I did with Michael was called Therapeutic Metaphor.

                      It's a powerful technque that helps you assist people in changing
                      their lives.

                      Not only is it my favorite technique, but it's the one I've spent
                      a great deal of time perfecting.

                      The technique was invented by Milton Erickson the legendary hypnotherapist.

                      But the technique is explained best by his student David Gordon.

                      You can learn more about it here:

                      http://www. deleted and you'll never take me alive!

                      This technique works on bosses, employees, teachers, students, wives,
                      children - in short everyone.

                      It's easy to learn when you have the right teacher.

                      Here's to helping people change.

                      Dr. Harlan Kilstein

                      PS. I've got lots more stories about using therapeutic metaphors to
                      help people change. Hope you get to experience them too.
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                      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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                      • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        Found it:

                        Subject Line: How Coffee Saved A Marriage

                        A number of years ago, Michael, a good friend of mind was
                        going through a rough time in his marriage.

                        It wasn't that he and his wife fought.

                        It was more like guerilla warfare.

                        It was exhausting to both of them.

                        Going to marriage counselling didn't work at all.

                        If anything, it made things worse.

                        But in a crazy way, they were still madly in love with one another.

                        I know. It makes no sense at all. But they loved one another even
                        though they fought all the time.

                        On one thing they agreed - their kids. They never argued about
                        their kids.

                        They argued about finances, where to vacation, what to have for
                        dinner, what movie to see, what video to rent, and what they
                        should wear for an evening out.

                        It was like their fighting was keeping them together.

                        Until one day, Michael changed. He told me he was tired of fighting.

                        It was taking too much energy.

                        He was ready to call it quits and move on.

                        When I asked him why, his answer was, it was taking too much energy
                        to fix his marriage.

                        That's where the coffee came in.

                        You see this was in the days before green signed coffee shops dotted
                        the landscapes.

                        If you wanted a good cup of Java, you brewed it yourself.

                        So I asked Michael,

                        Do you drink just any coffee?

                        "No, I only drink the good stuff."

                        So you never drink instant?

                        "Never. I don't even consider it coffee."

                        What coffee do you drink?

                        "I like Kona and Jamaica Blue Mountain."

                        Restaurant coffee?

                        "On etremely rare occasions."

                        So how do you make coffee?

                        "First I buy the best beans and keep them in an airtight container
                        in my freezer.

                        Than I grind them right before I brew the coffee."

                        Why?

                        "Because the flavor gets weak if you grind the beans too far in advance."

                        And how do you brew the coffee? An electric percolator?

                        Michael turned up his nose, "And ruin the coffee? No way. Coffee
                        must be dripped for perfection."

                        So you pour the coffee through a filter and brew it?

                        "Well I only used unbleached filters. I don't want traces of bleach
                        in my coffee."

                        Is there a method to pouring the water?

                        "First it's only spring water and we pour it rather slowly and wait
                        for the water to seep through the coffee before adding some more."

                        Than I got to the main question, "Isn't that a lot of work for
                        coffee?"

                        He said, "If you care about something, it's worth the extra effort."

                        That was all the therapy I did.

                        Next time I saw Michael, he told me he was going to stay and work it
                        out. He looked at me and winked, "If you care about something, it's
                        worth the extra effort."

                        What I did with Michael was called Therapeutic Metaphor.

                        It's a powerful technque that helps you assist people in changing
                        their lives.

                        Not only is it my favorite technique, but it's the one I've spent
                        a great deal of time perfecting.

                        The technique was invented by Milton Erickson the legendary hypnotherapist.

                        But the technique is explained best by his student David Gordon.

                        You can learn more about it here:

                        http://www. deleted and you'll never take me alive!

                        This technique works on bosses, employees, teachers, students, wives,
                        children - in short everyone.

                        It's easy to learn when you have the right teacher.

                        Here's to helping people change.

                        Dr. Harlan Kilstein

                        PS. I've got lots more stories about using therapeutic metaphors to
                        help people change. Hope you get to experience them too.
                        Absolutely Wonderful Story!

                        I've used one (albeit not soooo exceptional as yours) with kids regarding peer pressure...especially "underprivileged" kids.

                        Simplified Version:

                        Gossip had it that a girl was going to get into a fight, mostly because she was being "egged on" by her friends to do it so I pulled her aside.

                        If those any of your friends told you "Pay me $20 a day and I'll be your friend", would you do it?
                        "No"
                        I inquired, "Why not?" with which she responded, "Why would I pay them to be my friend...that'd be F*d up?" (I've heard that more than once lol)
                        Then I restated it, "So you tell me that wouldn't pay any of them to be your friend because it's not worth it."
                        "Yeah, no one's going to tell me I have pay them to be my friend."
                        Then I gave the "thinker"..."So, tell me ...what the difference is between paying someone to be your friend and beating someone up just because your friends told you they wouldn't be friends with you anymore if you didn't?" It was a beautiful thing to see the moment it sunk in and have her turn to me with the look that said "I never thought of it that way." Then I reaffirmed to her "Friendship is a gift, just like love, and if you have to 'pay' someone by doing something so they will be your friend, then that is not friendship." (And, she ended up not fighting after all...and guess what...they still stayed her friends)
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                        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                          Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

                          Then I gave the "thinker"..."So, tell me ...what the difference is between paying someone to be your friend and beating someone up just because your friends told you they wouldn't be friends with you anymore if you didn't?" It was a beautiful thing to see the moment it sunk in and have her turn to me with the look that said "I never thought of it that way." Then I reaffirmed to her "Friendship is a gift, just like love, and if you have to 'pay' someone by doing something so they will be your friend, then that is not friendship." (And, she ended up not fighting after all...and guess what...they still stayed her friends)
                          Ah, here's the key.

                          In therapeutic metaphor, you never tell them the meaning.

                          If you do, it's like the old "and the moral of the story is."

                          But if you don't it forces them to think and...

                          that's when something wonderous occurs.

                          And the change may be much more profound.

                          So the key is, never tell them what the story means.

                          After all, maybe it means something else and you limited it.

                          Just a thought.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Chris Thompson
                            Harlan,

                            First - the coffee metaphor is fantastic. Loved it. Reminds me of my first time reading Erickson's "Joe and the tomato plant" metaphor.

                            Second - THANK YOU for pointing out the most important aspect of a metaphor. That is, you never, ever, ever explain it to the subject. Explaining it wrecks its power to work at an unconscious level.
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                          • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                            Ah, here's the key.

                            In therapeutic metaphor, you never tell them the meaning.

                            If you do, it's like the old "and the moral of the story is."

                            But if you don't it forces them to think and...

                            that's when something wonderous occurs.

                            And the change may be much more profound.

                            So the key is, never tell them what the story means.

                            After all, maybe it means something else and you limited it.

                            Just a thought.
                            I agree with you on this Harlan and the majority of the time I do leave them with just the thinker. Sometimes though, there is soooo much going on in the "background" with some of the children I deal with that a little affirmation/positive feedback that they realized "the point" is also needed...of course, with a little additional thinker tossed in to get them thinking about other areas of their lives that this might also apply to

                            Thank you Harlan, I'm sure you've realized by now that I appreciate your thoughts and input
                            bj
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                            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                              Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

                              Sometimes though, there is soooo much going on in the "background" with some of the children I deal with that a little affirmation/positive feedback that they realized "the point" is also needed...of course, with a little additional thinker tossed in to get them thinking about other areas of their lives that this might also apply to
                              Hey bj,

                              Thanks.

                              This is a big presupposition on your part.

                              I've worked with metaphor with children as little as two and they got it.

                              (But they needed the story repeated every night)

                              See what happens if you don't tell them...

                              Peace.
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                              • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                                Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                                Hey bj,

                                Thanks.

                                This is a big presupposition on your part.

                                I've worked with metaphor with children as little as two and they got it.

                                (But they needed the story repeated every night)

                                See what happens if you don't tell them...

                                Peace.
                                I do the "not tell them" more often than not. Just curious, but do you ever "praise" the children you work with when they get it?

                                Also, what's your opinion on the thought that NLP can only be effective on someone if the desire to change is there within that person already?
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                                • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                                  And, since I seem to be in such a curious mood today, I thought I would pose this question to all the certified's on here....and this one's a doosy!

                                  Back to dating and the use of NLP for a sec....

                                  These guys are being taught to use NLP to get women..and even more so, to get them into bed. If a guy is employing "mind-controlling" techniques for the purpose of getting a woman into bed I would think that is unethical because the woman is "hynotically" being "drugged" into submitting to the man. In other words, if the woman wasn't "under the influence" of this guys NLP tactics, then she would more possibly than not, tell him "No".

                                  So, in this case...is there any real difference between a guy using NLP and a date rape drug (other than drugging someone is illegal)?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                                    Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post


                                    So, in this case...is there any real difference between a guy using NLP and a date rape drug (other than drugging someone is illegal)?
                                    I've actually seen this technique in action.

                                    It's not just immoral, it may be illegal as well.

                                    I can't bring myself to share their justification of it.

                                    It doesn't always work but when it does, non-consensual sex can take place.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                                      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                                      I've actually seen this technique in action.

                                      It's not just immoral, it may be illegal as well.

                                      I can't bring myself to share their justification of it.

                                      It doesn't always work but when it does, non-consensual sex can take place.
                                      I think it could fall into the illegal category too, but the only thing is being able to prove it since it's not something that could physically be proven.

                                      You're moral so you can't bring yourself to share their justification of it because it's like watching someone intentionally cause another pain.

                                      What I have a hard time understanding is why the "gurus" who are teaching these guys to use it or even giving them a hint at using it in this manner haven't come under the gun for it.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                                        Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

                                        What I have a hard time understanding is why the "gurus" who are teaching these guys to use it or even giving them a hint at using it in this manner haven't come under the gun for it.
                                        This stuff isn't taught openly but one on one.

                                        I'm seen it in action and it ain't pretty.

                                        Peace.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                                  Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

                                  I do the "not tell them" more often than not. Just curious, but do you ever "praise" the children you work with when they get it?
                                  Of course. Positive reinforcement? Heck yes.

                                  By the way, my doctorate is in education.

                                  Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

                                  Also, what's your opinion on the thought that NLP can only be effective on someone if the desire to change is there within that person already?
                                  I have found they need to desire to change on the subconscious level. Consciously it doesn't matter all that much.
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                          • Profile picture of the author dv8
                            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                            Ah, here's the key.

                            In therapeutic metaphor, you never tell them the meaning.

                            If you do, it's like the old "and the moral of the story is."

                            But if you don't it forces them to think and...

                            that's when something wonderous occurs.

                            And the change may be much more profound.

                            So the key is, never tell them what the story means.

                            After all, maybe it means something else and you limited it.

                            Just a thought.
                            Never tell them because...when someone is told something they sometimes believe it. But a person never doubts what they conclude themselves.

                            Is this correct?
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                          • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
                            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                            • You're doing the stuff I write against.
                            • It's using NLP as a party trick.
                            • NLP should be much more elegant.
                            • This is grade school NLP crap.
                            • John and Richard were never my favorite NLP teachers anyway.
                            • Dave didn't think much of the language patterns you used.
                            • In my life, I have returned only one book - Igors. Pure crap.
                            • Go back to your teacher and say, "I'm missing a piece."
                            • I taught NLP Copywriting I with all of the big name copywriters there.
                            • Shut up Dave.
                            • Can you get my point here?
                            • You would all buy my product.
                            • Neither of you experts caught any of the NLP patterns I have been using.
                            • That's okay. You can always learn from your failures.
                            • I've worked with metaphor with children as little as two and they got it.
                            • By the way, my doctorate is in education.
                            • I've seen it in action and it ain't pretty.
                            • Visual, auditory, and kinesthetic words in copy does not work.
                            You know, certain parts of this thread remind me of something I experienced late one night last year in Louisiana.

                            I was sitting alone in a pub enjoying a beer when one of the band members walked up to the bar and sat down beside me. He caught the bartender's eye and said, can I getta beer over here? Then he placed his trumpet next to me on the bar and asked if I knew how to play. I said, no. He handed it to me anyway and said, go on and givher a try. What do I do, I asked. He said, justa blow hard. So I did. Then I left the bar.

                            My car was parked at the grocery store across the street. It was raining. A boy and his mother were getting into a minivan parked next to me. The boy had a cold. His mother kindly held a Kleenex to his nose while he asked, what do I gotta do now mama? She said, justa blow hard. So he did. Then I started my car and drove away.

                            A few miles later, the police were blocking the road to check for drunks behind the wheel. I rolled down my window. The cop noticed beer on my breath, and said, how many yahad tonight? I said, three. He showed me a little plastic tube and said, ever take thishere test before? No, I said, what do I do? It's easy, he said. Justa blow hard. So I did. Then I drove home and went to bed.

                            Resting there, I suddenly had the urge to wake up my girlfriend, to tell her about my night. So I did. I told her about the Trumpet Player, the Little Boy, and the Cop. Then, as if by magic, I started telling her about Harlan.
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                            • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                              Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

                              You know, this thread reminds me of something that happened to me a while back.

                              I was sitting alone in a pub one night enjoying a beer when a band member walked up to the bar and sat down beside me. He ordered a drink and placed his trumpet on the bar. He asked me if I knew how to play. I said, no. He handed it to me and said, try it. What do I do, I asked. He said, just blow hard. So I did. Then I left the bar.

                              My car was parked at the grocery store across the street. It was raining. A boy and his mother were getting into a minivan parked next to me. The boy had a cold. His mother kindly held a Kleenex to his nose and he asked, what do I do mama? She said, just blow hard. So he did. Then I started my car and drove away.

                              A few miles later, the police were blocking the road to check for drunks behind the wheel. I rolled down my window. The cop noticed beer on my breath, and said, how many tonight? I said, three. He showed me a little plastic tube and said, ever take this test before? No, I said, what do I do? He said, It's easy. Just blow hard. So I did. Then I drove home and went to bed.

                              Resting there, I noticed the strange theme that had worked it's way through my evening. So I woke up my girlfriend and I told her about the Trumpet Player, the Little Boy, and the Cop. Then, as if by magic, I started telling her about Harlan.
                              LMAO! you got my imagination & brought up some fond memories with that one!
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                            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                              Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

                              He said, justa blow hard. So I did. Then I left the bar.
                              Wow that's some dream.

                              I've known you as a blow hard since I read your first post.

                              I didn't need to dream about it.

                              Must be my secret remote viewing power dot com.
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                              • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
                                Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                                Wow that's some dream. I've known you as a blow hard
                                since I read your first post. I didn't need to dream about it.
                                Dream? Pay attention will ya... oh masterful one.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                                  Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

                                  Dream? Pay attention will ya... oh masterful one.
                                  Thanks for being the first on my ignore list.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
                                    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                                    Thanks for being the first on my ignore list.
                                    Smart move.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
                                      wow! I go away for a few and all heck breaks loose! I'm gonna respectfully acknowledge both of you guys and your views... & go hide in the neutral corner. And, yes, Harlan, I still appreciate and adore you
                                      Namaste,
                                      bj
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    • Profile picture of the author Adam Kenzington
      Originally Posted by StevenBird View Post

      Don't surpose anyone knows of anyone near Ipswich in the UK who could help me...
      Hey Steven,

      I must admit, my world geography could use a brush-up, but one of the best trainers in the UK is a guy named "Jamie Smart". He and his staff have great trainings and programs available.

      Check out his website: Salad ltd, NLP training and products

      I think you will find plenty there that will be useful. Also sign up for his free services. He has 3 different free e-mail newsletters worth checking out. (and his "NLP Tips" are archived, so you can go back to the beginning with his great stuff).

      Besides the "NLP Tips", he also has "Irresistible Influence" and "Hypnotic Language" newsletters, too. The Irresistible Influence & Hypnotic Language are weekly posts based on his hugely popular "Card Decks" that teach you how to use language patterns.

      I wish I lived near by so I could attend a few of Jamie's seminars.

      I'm going to make an assumption, right now, and tell you "You'll love it!"

      Later,

      Adam
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Thompson
    Here is an example of how NOT to use hypnosis and NLP in marketing, in my own opinion. I do not intent to knock the site owner, but I would just do things differently if it was me:

    (I found this just searching on the topic and opted into his newsletter. This is the thank you page)

    Thank You
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    • Profile picture of the author williamstarrett
      That audio is hilarious. I mean, I like to rely on conversion stats more than my opinions but I couldn't quit laughing toward the end.

      Originally Posted by Chris Thompson View Post

      Here is an example of how NOT to use hypnosis and NLP in marketing, in my own opinion. I do not intent to knock the site owner, but I would just do things differently if it was me:
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      • Profile picture of the author Adam Kenzington
        Originally Posted by williamstarrett View Post

        That audio is hilarious. I mean, I like to rely on conversion stats more than my opinions but I couldn't quit laughing toward the end.
        I know what you mean. He slaughters it with his feeble attempt at embedded commands.

        As Harlan would say (and I agree with), he is not elegant of speech.

        The inflection and pauses for his embedded command work is so obvious (and annoying). You do not need to be that "marked out" to be effective. It can be done so much more gracefully, and the mind will still pick it up.

        This guy is one of those trainers that just come across as "Creepy".
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        • Profile picture of the author David
          According to John Bradshaw famous codependency author from the 80's and Oprah Winfre's personal therapist during the late 80's:

          All language is hypnotic.

          the fact that a word is a symbol and that symbol is not the thing being described.

          If you speak. If you use language, you're using NLP weather you're aware of it or not.

          The way I see it, NLP isn't a 'thing'

          NLP isn't a fancy form of hypnosis

          It isn't a thought process, it isn't a technique, it isn't even a technique that one 'doesn't know how to do now, but will if they take X,Y or Z class'

          NLP is simply a description of what we all do naturally.

          that said, it'd behoove us to take control of or at least be aware of what we're gonna do anyway.... it's more efficient that way.

          NLP is defined as: "The Structure of Subjective Experience"

          And we all have subjective experiences even if we like to pretend that subjectivity is a red headed step child

          Ok, I'll stop now
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by David View Post

            According to John Bradshaw famous codependency author from the 80's and Oprah Winfre's personal therapist during the late 80's:

            All language is hypnotic.
            I'll go even further.

            Someone asked my teacher Dave Dobson if he could point out someone who was in a trance.

            Dr. Dobson answered back,

            "Can you point out someone who isn't in a trance?"
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  • Profile picture of the author webwise66
    Well, this NLP thing certainly is getting a discussion going.
    When I trained to do my Alexander Technique teacher certificate I was very lucky that our instructor was very well trained in NLP (by Grinder & Bandler, the 2 originators, actually). I found the study an absolute eye opener.

    My approach to using NLP techniques is certainly in the choice of words but even more so in the realization that very few people take information in evenly and equally through all 3 senses (visual/auditory/kynesthetic) but are seriously lopsided towards one of the 3 and many towards the visual.
    So for them reading a long sales letter might be a pain in the butt and watching a video all of a sudden makes complete sense.
    You get what I mean...
    There seems to be a lot more videos out there.
    See, feel and listen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by webwise66 View Post

      My approach to using NLP techniques is certainly in the choice of words but even more so in the realization that very few people take information in evenly and equally through all 3 senses (visual/auditory/kynesthetic) but are seriously lopsided towards one of the 3 and many towards the visual.
      So for them reading a long sales letter might be a pain in the butt and watching a video all of a sudden makes complete sense.
      You get what I mean...
      There seems to be a lot more videos out there.
      See, feel and listen.
      As my teacher Dave Dobson used to say, each person has their own 3 legged stool. Each leg represents one of the systems.

      Which legs are longer than the other?

      Now when you have an uneven stool, it's a bit rickety and can fall over.

      The challenge is to balance the stool.

      But, here's a big hint - the use of visual, auditory, and kinesthetic words in copy does not work.

      It's a waste of time.

      Who can guess why?

      If you were on my NLP list, I already taught this....
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      • Profile picture of the author williamstarrett
        Harlan, I'm on your lists and try to read each email but I don't remember seeing this one. However, I'll take a stab at it because I'd love to know the right answer.

        My guess is because people "hear" the words as they read them. They subvocalize the words to process them. Again, just a guess.

        What works better? Imagery through stories that queue emotion? Even then, the modalities would be hot buttons, I guess.





        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        But, here's a big hint - the use of visual, auditory, and kinesthetic words in copy does not work.

        It's a waste of time.

        Who can guess why?

        If you were on my NLP list, I already taught this....
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Originally Posted by williamstarrett View Post


          My guess is because people "hear" the words as they read them. They subvocalize the words to process them. Again, just a guess.
          That's it.

          DING DING DING.

          Everyone subvocalizes when reading so it forces people to be in an auditory mode.

          Now, if they would WATCH a video (instead of just listening to it) they would be visual.

          Which of course leaves another mode completely wide open...

          Can you get my point here?
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  • Profile picture of the author Li Weng
    Don't really know too much about NLP, but I've heard quite a bit about it. Does it really work?
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    This has been an interesting thread.

    While I agree with some of the comments made here and John T and I have discussed NLP a lot over the years, I was still left with one feeling about this thread after reading all of the posts so far.......

    Harlan - You're proclaiming 'correct' use of NLP and taking an authoritative stance on this - yet you're being so tactless in some of your posts criticizing other people and their approaches that it seems like you're not practicing what you're preaching.

    Knowledge of NLP is only as useful as the way you act on it.

    I'm familiar with NLP and I do understand your point and agree that it would seem more appropriate for people to discover the nlp environment before learning a few 'tricks' for how to 'use it on people', because it's actually a great tool for personal development as much as it's good for anything else.

    I also love the metaphor and I've been using similar tools for helping recovery from illness.

    Andy
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Harlan - You're proclaiming 'correct' use of NLP and taking an authoritative stance on this - yet you're being so tactless in some of your posts criticizing other people and their approaches that it seems like you're not practicing what you're preaching.

      Andy
      I'm not tactless.

      I'm passionate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        I'm not tactless.

        I'm passionate.

        Fair enough - at least you also have a sense of humour
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        • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Fair enough - at least you also have a sense of humour
          Well he made me laugh anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


        I'm passionate.
        I wonder, does that result in a lack of precision in your
        use of language?

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

          I wonder, does that result in a lack of precision in your
          use of language?

          John
          That does explain it - When your emotions kick-in, your logical mind clocks-off.

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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Neither of you experts have caught any of the NLP patterns I have been using throughout.

            Including the reframe in the last post.

            Look at the deep structure.
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            • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Neither of you experts have caught any of the NLP patterns I have been using throughout.

              Including the reframe in the last post.

              Look at the deep structure.
              OMG - That's the funniest thing I've read for ages.

              Thanks!!!
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            • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Neither of you experts have caught any of the NLP patterns I have been using throughout.

              Including the reframe in the last post.

              Look at the deep structure.
              If I was evaluating the above response I might say..

              "You have no idea what was, or was not, "caught" by anyone reading
              or participating in this thread. You're using your own values and
              beliefs to filter the communication and passing it off as mind reading."

              However, I didn't realise it was a test.

              John
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              • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

                If I was evaluating the above response I might say..

                "You have no idea what was, or was not, "caught" by anyone reading
                or participating in this thread. You're using your own values and
                beliefs to filter the communication and passing it off as mind reading."

                However, I didn't realise it was a test.

                John
                Don't spoil the fun... he's demonstrating elegant art forms that we can't comprehend.

                Just be quiet and learn from the master. (him not me )
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              • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

                However, I didn't realise it was a test.

                John
                That's okay. You can always learn from your failures.
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                • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
                  I must thank Steven, the OP, for starting this thread.

                  I have seen some really funny threads and links to laugh-out-loud YouTube videos on this forum, but this thread beats them all.

                  Thank you to all that have contributed so far - I hope there's still some gas left as NLP has never been so humorous and we could all do with more laughter in our lives and less taking ourselves so seriously.

                  Peace

                  Peter
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                • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
                  Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                  That's okay. You can always learn from your failures.
                  I've certainly learned a lot from yours.

                  John
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                • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
                  Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                  That's okay. You can always learn from your failures.

                  Hmm, I thought I had heard somewhere in NLP land that

                  "There is no such thing as failure, only feedback."

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Wow, Psychic NLP! Now there's a product...

    {points to sig line}

    LOL... you guys crack me up
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  • Profile picture of the author williamstarrett
    Thanks Harlan.

    No wonder some people take posts so personal and can be doubly open and abrasive in their response. They hear the banter returned in their own voice as they read it- confusing it with their negative self talk.
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  • Profile picture of the author Phil Jones
    This is one of the most interesting threads I have read on this forum to date. Thanks for everyone who has posted here. I'm far from an expert on NLP but I've seen this stuff work and I like what I see.

    Good stuff guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Thompson
    I'll chime in here on this.

    I'm not in agreement on laying the NLP on thick to pick up women, but it is definitely NOT the equivalent of drugging someone. It is not magic and it is not mind control. Guys who pitch it that way are full of it.

    I have a good friend who is really fantastic in conversation and people seem to always be interested in talking to him. Women especially. He has never studied NLP. But perhaps, I'd suggest ... he has unconsciously mastered the same tools

    Remember, NLP is just a MODEL. It is not new. It is a description of what OTHER people are already doing to create a successful outcome.

    Everyone has access to the toolbox. Some choose to make use of it, some do not.

    Remember, there is no such thing as hypnosis. But if there were, then what would it look like
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    • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
      Thank you Chris. It's also another reason why I posted the question before that post about NLP being effective on someone who doesn't already have the same desire (either consciously/subcosciously) for the "intended" outcome.

      Originally Posted by Chris Thompson View Post

      Remember, there is no such thing as hypnosis. But if there were, then what would it look like
      anything You told me it looked like...Remember i would be under your control
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  • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
    I read the whole thread.

    Interesting.

    I'm not an NLP expert, but if 'rapport' is the key of NLP, then why argue? Isn't arguing a lose-lose situation?

    JK
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    • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
      Originally Posted by J.Knight View Post

      I read the whole thread.

      Interesting.

      I'm not an NLP expert, but if 'rapport' is the key of NLP, then why argue? Isn't arguing a lose-lose situation?

      JK
      hmmmm...well it wouldn't be lose-lose if I Win the argument:p (j/k)

      Arguing is not much more than a battle of the egos and it doesn't do much for your body physiologically either. But, if you can walk away from an argument, reflect on it, and learn something from it than haven't you "won"? I'm more of a person who has animated discussions.

      We've all seen two people argue before...now imagine what would happen if each of those people was holding up a mirror toward the other?
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      • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
        Originally Posted by lilmechante01 View Post

        hmmmm...well it wouldn't be lose-lose if I Win the argument:p (j/k)

        Arguing is not much more than a battle of the egos and it doesn't do much for your body physiologically either. But, if you can walk away from an argument, reflect on it, and learn something from it than haven't you "won"? I more of the of person who has animated discussions.

        We've all seen two people argue before...now imagine what would happen if each of those people was holding up a mirror toward the other?
        Yeah, without a doubt you can learn from an argument.

        However, it's still an enemy of rapport.

        This is one of the principles of 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' is it not? That the only way to win an argument is to not be in one.

        JK

        P.S. To the person (can't remember who) who mentioned Jamie Smart. I listened to some of his stuff months ago, and I have to say, although I learned some things, I think he might win the award for the 'Most Annoying Voice Ever'.

        Ok, I exaggerate. It's annoying nonetheless, and I can't 'imagine' how it helps him achieve his efforts with NLP.
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    • Profile picture of the author lilmechante01
      Originally Posted by J.Knight View Post

      I read the whole thread.

      Interesting.

      I'm not an NLP expert, but if 'rapport' is the key of NLP, then why argue? Isn't arguing a lose-lose situation?

      JK
      k..i just can't resist...

      depends on who you're "arguing" with, 'cuz there's usually a lot of passion infused within the discussion...and in that case, making up can be fun and a win-win for both
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  • Profile picture of the author macknox
    Check out Amazon for a host of NLP books.
    The Unfair advantage by D. Larkin presents it for business use.

    In my previous real job I had to do a bit of studing on NLP for marketing.
    It's all very clever stuff.
    Derren Brown is a great exponent of it.

    We all use it without knowing it. We use what works and keep using "it".
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    • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
      Originally Posted by macknox View Post

      We all use it without knowing it.
      This is key point for any who criticise those who advocate NLP principles.

      The difference between the guy who uses it without knowing and the guy who uses it deliberately, is simply that one is a student and the other isn't.

      I don't think there is anything sinister about NLP at all. I could be wrong though.

      JK
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by J.Knight View Post

        This is key point for any who criticise those who advocate NLP principles.

        The difference between the guy who uses it without knowing and the guy who uses it deliberately, is simply that one is a student and the other isn't.

        I don't think there is anything sinister about NLP at all. I could be wrong though.

        JK
        You're not wrong - NLP isn't witchcraft or magic - it's just a framework for looking at the way people communicate (internal, external, verbal, non-verbal etc..) and how an understanding of that can lead to adjusting natural communication towards being more effective for particular things.

        If that sounds like a generalisation - it is. There are no boundaries to NLP. Bandler and Grindler just created a starting point - which has been developed in many ways by people since they described it.

        It itself it's just a tool - it's not good or bad, but like learning some new information about how the planets move around in the sky - you can find it interesting and leave it at that, or you can spend time observing it for yourself and integrate that knowledge into the way you view things from that point. Maybe you'll change your actions based on that knowledge, maybe not. Maybe you'll just look at how to improve your life with the knowledge, maybe not - or you could even share it with others and let them get what value they can from it. Regardless, it's just a new set of information about the way we perceive things to be.

        You can expand on the publicly available information, use it in new ways that people aren't talking or writing about (yet), or just take it as a model and learn the elements that you can see how to apply to make yourself happier.

        The main reason NLP gets a bad rap is that there are people who want to 'use it on others', in the same way as hypnosis is viewed.

        In reality it can change your life for the better having just integrated a few morsals of the core precepts on which it is founded - but YOU get to choose the effect.

        There is a LOT of information about it and many people teaching it, so you'll never be short of information on it. I learned about it in a personal way and then read every book I could get my hands on, joined practice groups, got trained up and then used it in my coaching. Ultimately I now don't consider it anything more than just one tool which can be used in combination with others to improve the results in certain situations. I really only consciously use it for personal development applications for myself and others, but once you integrate new learnings you tend to have them as part of the way you see everything, so I'm sure I use NLP unconsiously in other situations too.

        If you're new to it and are interested, I would just advise that you consider anything you read from your own perspective and experience and not try to take on the authors perspective and think you then know it all. Every expert NLPer I meet has their own take on it and I think that's the best way to take it. Make it your own and create your own toolset.

        Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author spudzz
    As someone who's done a heck of a lot of personal selling in his life then I can say absolutely that the 3 most important elements in any successful sales conversation are:-

    1) Rapport
    2) Enthusiasm
    3) Rhythm

    and

    4) Confidence (OK, 4 things then)

    NLP, to a large degree, seems to be a codification of what the most successful sales professionals have been doing for a long time, usually unconciously. It's always a good joke to see the NLP 'Ticks and Tricks' used on others (Derren Brown's taking money off a bookmaker on a losing bet is the classic) but it always seems so forced (or am I just more aware of what's going on?).

    Yes, Frank Kern does use NLP, whether it's deliberate or not, but he seems to major on Rapport. Harlan is an Enthusiast. Mike Filsaime is Confident. Very little of the sales copy I see uses Rhythm at all well. However, put all that lot together and you've got Sales Dynamite!
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by spudzz View Post


      Yes, Frank Kern does use NLP, whether it's deliberate or not, but he seems to major on Rapport.
      Laughing.

      Yes, it's deliberate.

      We talk from time to time.

      I send him my NLP stuff. He uses it.

      Absolutely brilliantly.

      His use of anchoring in his videos promoting the Mass Control Monthly was freaking out of this world.

      He studies this stuff.

      And he probably lies about all the surfing he does.

      Peace.

      PS. Now he'll probably come on the board to deny he uses it.
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      • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        PS. Now he'll probably come on the board to deny he uses it.
        I've seen him on video at a live seminar, and he admitted to using NLP.

        Kern uses his 'image' powerfully.

        So does Jeff Walker, with his ultra 'aw schucks' image.

        Some of these guys have an image which is just too... convenient.

        It's great!

        JK
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Originally Posted by J.Knight View Post

          I've seen him on video at a live seminar, and he admitted to using NLP.

          Kern uses his 'image' powerfully.

          So does Jeff Walker, with his ultra 'aw schucks' image.

          Some of these guys have an image which is just too... convenient.

          It's great!

          JK
          First, I know both Jeff and Frank and...

          they really ARE their image. They didn't create it.

          Some IM gurus have a stage image but aren't that way in real life.

          Kern really is funny and crazy and would rather surf than work.

          But both Jeff and Frank are super-smart business people.

          What surprises me is that more marketers don't use NLP to convey their message.

          Peace
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  • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
    Andy,

    I've got a few other books I'm in the middle of right now, but I'll definitely be giving NLP further study at some point.

    I think your advice to make what you learn 'your own' is a good call. We're all different characters, and we have to mould the principles around who we already are.

    I don't think trying to become a totally different person to incorporate what you learn, is a good idea.

    Are there any recommended audios on NLP (like mp3's of seminars, etc)?

    JK
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by J.Knight View Post

      Andy,

      I've got a few other books I'm in the middle of right now, but I'll definitely be giving NLP further study at some point.

      I think your advice to make what you learn 'your own' is a good call. We're all different characters, and we have to mould the principles around who we already are.

      I don't think trying to become a totally different person to incorporate what you learn, is a good idea.

      Are there any recommended audios on NLP (like mp3's of seminars, etc)?

      JK
      I've got tons of Bandler audios, I like his 'persuasion engineering ones' - he's really funny. He's often very subtle and elegant and often 'not' but he's funny as hell.

      I've met Jonathan Alfield a few times and have his audios but he focuses more on the auditory stuff.

      In my experience (I've bought lots of crap NLP stuff too), the closer to stick to the original material the better it tends to be, so look at how NLP started and who's work it was based on and go from there.

      Different people focus it in different ways, so some good guys focus on 'nlp in business', or therapy, or personal development, so find a couple of people who are focused on the aspect that relates more to your own interest and go with them. Just about every book you read will lead you onto other people and material.

      Every time I read one book - I buy 5 more

      Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author J.Knight
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        Every time I read one book - I buy 5 more
        That's a dangerous blackhole!

        Thanks for the info dude.

        JK
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by J.Knight View Post

          That's a dangerous blackhole!

          Thanks for the info dude.

          JK
          not only that - I've been in Singapore a couple of months so now I've bought more books since I've been here than my entire luggage allowance gives me when I go back to the UK next month. I'm gonna need to ship the books home separately - and I've been traveling a lot so I've bought less than usual

          I bought 3 more within an hour of getting off the plane today. I think I'm addicted to learning.
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  • Profile picture of the author dianarupert
    Originally Posted by Teenage Genius View Post

    I have been reading up on Covert-Hypnosis and NeuroLinguistic Programming (NLP)

    Though Subliminal Messaging for use in advertisements is illegal, i think. Has/does anyone use any of the techniques taught by NLP practitioners to sell products.

    I think EVERYONE should use the techniques to build a great Rapport with their customers. But what about things like anchoring, or asking people to visualize.

    I could see these techniques working great, if you could somehow anchor your page/product with someones feeling of happiness or excitment - this would help your sales surely.

    Im sure this would be quite difficult, and im not sure if its aloud, but im also sure it would go under the radar.

    Any thoughts on this?
    How do you exactly do this technique?
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by dianarupert View Post

      How do you exactly do this technique?
      It's not a technique.

      This is just simple psychological knowledge used to support having people feel good about something they already like and then integrating your product into what they associate with that feeling so that next time they see your product they remember to feel good without those other things being needed.

      This is just old marketing stuff, it's nothing new.

      Remember companies like Coke, Budweiser etc... there's almost always a song, a celebrity,a child etc. in all of their adverts because they know a lot of people like those things, so they're associating your likes with their product.

      This has been done for decades, it's simple.

      But I don't advise you do this if you don't understand what you're doing as you'll end up with a bad implementation because you're trying to 'use it on people' rather than integrating the knowledge into your processes.

      Harlan obviously teaches this stuff so why not just by his stuff and learn from him?

      I only cover these things with my mentoring clients because I don't want people scratching the surface and thinking they understand it and never getting a good proportion of the understanding of how it can be used.

      Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    No I DO not.
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