Is "Affiliate Marketing" a Sustainable Business?

270 replies
A few days ago, I got into a bit of a row with another Warrior, who was dead set on "proving" that being an affiliate was an unsustainable business model. I disagreed with him then, and I still do...sort of. Much of the heat from the discussion was generated by me allowing his cocky, arrogant insistence on being right, his condescending attitude toward anyone who disagreed with him, and his insistence that repeating what he'd posted earlier constituted proof of his points get under my skin.

After some time to let his actual points sink in and marinate without having the pot stirred, he's partly right.

Affiliate marketing as many practice it is not a long term business model, and was never intended to be.

Take "Bum Marketing" for example...

This money-maker involves writing and distributing articles and generating clicks to sales pages using the "Bum's" affiliate links. It's a one-shot deal. If the click-through buys, the Bum gets a commission and the vendor gets a new customer. The Bum is back at square one. And by direct linking to the vendor's sales page, Bum is at the mercy of the vendor - if that page or product disappears, so does any value to Bum. His links are worthless.

One of the bones of contention in my little row was the assertion that the affiliate had no real product of their own.

That's where he's wrong.

The professional affiliate does have a product to sell - attention. Not only that, a professional affiliate delivers that attention in a state of mind favorable to the vendor.

That attention is not tied to a single product, either.

Another bone of contention was that an affiliate had no control over product, price or service. True, up to a point.

A truly professional affiliate will have a good idea if the product is good and many times if the service is good before directing any of that attention to the vendor. Also, the affiliate has indirect control over the price via product selection.

When you boil it down to the essence, affiliate marketing is selling a product, not unlike any other business. Marketing firms have been accepted as real, sustainable businesses for generations.

Lumping all affiliates together in one group makes about as much sense as lumping together a lion and a tabby cat. Yes, they are both felines, but they are not the same animal...
#affiliate marketing #business #sustainable
  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Too true! We all tend to make proclamations about this and that based on our own experience or our own assumptions about it. I think it's human nature, for whatever reason. But we should always guard against it. Take any aspect of IM and there will be at least 2 ways to go about it that will produce better or worse results. Most of the time, there are a lot more than 2 ways to do it, so pronouncements that "_______ is no good" or "_________ is always good" are entirely useless.

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2549790].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Vogin
      I would add that affiliate marketing is probably not always the final destination - most of the affiliates will (sooner or later) start to creating their own products.

      Affiliate marketing suffers from one flaw - "gurus" say it's "easy for beginners". Unless you give them a straight forward instructions regarding traffic generation or a $1000 PPC budget, it's not that easy.
      Signature

      ppcsluzby.cz/en - PPC agency


      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2549854].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Vogin View Post

        I would add that affiliate marketing is probably not always the final destination - most of the affiliates will (sooner or later) start to creating their own products.
        Many do 'graduate' to creating and selling their own products. And for them, the goal of marketing successfully as an affiliate often isn't always to be a professional affiliate. Many times, it is to learn to sell products without the added requirements of creating, hosting and supporting those products, while also generating cash flow.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2549920].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author BonganiS
        Originally Posted by Vogin View Post

        I would add that affiliate marketing is probably not always the final destination - most of the affiliates will (sooner or later) start to creating their own products.
        I think it is a good idea for affiliate Marketers to consider creating their own products sooner or later. Affiliate marketing is good but it should help one to learn some skills to use for their future internet marketing careers.

        When promoting affiliate marketing programs, it is advisable to promote programs from different Merchants in case something goes wrong with one or some.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552761].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Samuel Baker
    It does take some time to get into the swing of things with Affiliate Marketing this is from my own personal experience, as Vogin said above targeted traffic generation is vital to any success within affiliate marketing and being able to utilize and capture the organic traffic customers I believe is a key factor also.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2549906].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Samuel Baker View Post

      It does take some time to get into the swing of things with Affiliate Marketing this is from my own personal experience, as Vogin said above targeted traffic generation is vital to any success within affiliate marketing and being able to utilize and capture the organic traffic customers I believe is a key factor also.
      Samuel, I think you are getting it, but I wouldn't limit my thinking to purely organic traffic. There are companies out there making boatloads of money buying their traffic.

      That said, it isn't a question of either/or. It's a question of doing what works.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2549931].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author LMC
    Where people go wrong is that they just sit and link to products...

    They don't analyze those products, they don't analyze the audience of those products...

    My affiliate marketing revenue mainly is produced by tangiable items over the digital product world. When creating a website and a campaign for an advertiser it is cruical to know exactly who will be buying your products.

    If I have a website to sell RC controlled cars, you may assume a general hobbist might be interested, but the money rolls in when you figure out the exact audience, you find where this audience is on the big old net... and you capture their attention.

    The Ways I keep my customers is usually with a rebate, promotions, and comparison.

    and of course... a newsletter
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2549937].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author LeeSteese
    If affiliate marketing was so wonderful and great, why is it that as soon as someone makes any semi respectable amount of money as an affilite they want to create their own product teaching people how to be an affiliate? Because the real money, and the sustainable business, is in having your own products.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550022].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Danny, I was wondering how long it would take you to show up...

      First, I don't believe I ever called you anything. I ventured some less than flattering opinions about your posting style, which you obviously disagree with. Fair enough...

      Maybe affiliates don't exert direct control over the processes you mention, but they do exert indirect control just in the selection of offers they choose to promote.

      I think you're still lumping lions and tabby cats together to prove your point.

      One could argue that most single-product businesses are not sustainable over the long term. Take software, for example. If you sell a program that relies on a certain behavior by an external site and that site changes the behavior, the product owner is hosed unless he can fix the software. The affiliate plugs in a new product and steers their lists and traffic to the new offer.

      If the product, the price or the service aren't up to snuff, the affiliate is free to switch up the products offered.

      If a product owner sells a product, by whatever means, and the product refunds, they're also out their returns.

      Like I said, affiliates that send traffic directly to vendor sales pages are not using a sustainable model. On that we agree.

      Professional affiliates, who build their own assets (lists, authority sites, trust and reputation, i.e good will) can sustain the business by directing those assets to the vendor partner of their choosing. Attention is a valuable product, and those that can control a piece of it can sustain their businesses for a long time. No, I don't think that's a stretch.

      Whether or not some "guru" paints affiliate marketing as a long term business model or not is irrelevant. As I've defined them here, "affiliate marketing" as many practice it isn't sustainable. Professional affiliate marketing is. Two different animals...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550121].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by LeeSteese View Post

      If affiliate marketing was so wonderful and great, why is it that as soon as someone makes any semi respectable amount of money as an affilite they want to create their own product teaching people how to be an affiliate? Because the real money, and the sustainable business, is in having your own products.
      This isn't true. There are plenty of "super" affiliates who have absolutely no desire to create their own products. They're perfectly happy remaining affiliates and having the choice of thousands of products to promote. Telling someone they can make more money having their own products means diddly when that person is making 6 figures without the hassles.

      As far as selling as an affiliate not being a business, try telling your local insurance agent that he's not in business for himself and see how far that gets you.

      Tina
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550139].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author connorbringas
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        This isn't true. There are plenty of "super" affiliates who have absolutely no desire to create their own products. They're perfectly happy remaining affiliates and having the choice of thousands of products to promote. Telling someone they can make more money having their own products means diddly when that person is making 6 figures without the hassles.

        As far as selling as an affiliate not being a business, try telling your local insurance agent that he's not in business for himself and see how far that gets you.

        Tina
        Its true, some think its to much hassle to make there own products or their perfectly content with staying an affiliate. Its not all about making your first sale then spamming the web with how you did it..
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550151].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550193].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Okay, I've had enough of this crap.

          For those who think affiliate marketing is not a business model, you especially
          Danny, take a good look at Amazon.com

          None of those products are theirs.

          They have no control over the price. They sell them for whatever the
          company or independent sales person (in the case of used items or new
          items through folks who bought 'em wholesale) decides to charge and
          charges that company/person a fee for each sale.

          You want service for a defective product you bought? Don't contact them.
          Contact the person you bought it from. And no, it's not Amazon. They're
          nothing more than a middle man.

          In fact, this business model is even worse than affiliate marketing
          because Amazon PAYS affiliates to promote other people's products for
          them.

          And Amazon was in the red for YEARS before they finally started making
          money.

          My money is on them staying in business for a very long time.

          NO product
          NO control over price
          NO service after the sale

          Set, game, match.

          Now please take your pompous, egotistical self and go play someplace else
          because quite honestly, I'm tired of you.

          ** awaiting your pompous, know-it-all reply **
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550237].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author LeeSteese
        I'm an apex affiliate on cb and am in three super competative niches. Of my top affiliates, I can think of three off the top of my head who are not also a product owner, and all of them are getting ready to put their own products out.

        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        This isn't true. There are plenty of "super" affiliates who have absolutely no desire to create their own products. They're perfectly happy remaining affiliates and having the choice of thousands of products to promote. Telling someone they can make more money having their own products means diddly when that person is making 6 figures without the hassles.

        As far as selling as an affiliate not being a business, try telling your local insurance agent that he's not in business for himself and see how far that gets you.

        Tina
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551383].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I know nothing about affiliate marketing (online such as clickbank, amazon...), but what I do know leads me to think it is the most perfect business model in existence. I hope to pursue it in the future.

    Even offline its perfect.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550088].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
      Banned
      [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550114].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

        If you really mean what you just said, I think you are 100% wrong.

        Regardless, I'm buying your product in your signature because I LOVE cold calling.
        Lol. I even recommend affiliate marketing... its called different names but it all works the same. If you have a network of telemarketers across the globe then that is an affiliate network.

        In a thread on HYBRID MARKETING I talked about one that I created once... so, I have had "offline" experience with it... just never tried it in the sense that these guys do.

        It only stands to reason that if one person can make you twenty dollars per day, the 1000 people could make you $20,000 per day.

        Whether its online or offline with telemarketers having an ARMY of affiliates is the way to go.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550712].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550736].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            For some reason, Danny seems to think affiliate marketing is a set and forget type of business.

            You have to send traffic and find out what converts. Just like you do with your own products.

            You may have to continue to test other offers. Guess what, a lot of products have a shelf life and thus you have to continue testing more offers.

            Affiliate marketing is as viable of a business as selling your own products. Just ask the super affiliates making tons of cash with CPA offers. There are a lot of these types of marketers that don't create their own products but continue with cpa offers.

            Affiliates that create their own products doesn't make your point in regards to long term sustainable business. They just end up making more money with their own products. That takes nothing away from affiliate marketing or building a business around it.

            I see a lot of product owners selling products as affiliates. Look at the big launches in this niche. Does that mean product creation isn't a long term business?

            Apples and oranges, imo.

            Refunds? What does that have to do with a sustainable business when you get them whether your an affiliate or a product owner. Do you honestly think all product owners only rely on affiliates?

            Regardless, affiliates that are doing it right have already secured the customer in a email list. Getting a refund doesn't necessarily cost them money since they are also promoting other offers.

            Sorry, affiliates are not vital to any business. I don't need affiliates to bring in traffic and make sales. I can do that all by myself.

            Affiliates can help me grow just like outsourcing but to say they are vital is indeed wrong.

            Direct linking is not a sustainable business. Building up a email list will help you create a sustainable business no matter if you are a product owner or an affiliate.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550761].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551064].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                It's not a business, it's a job. There is no such thing as a "set it and forget it" job.
                Product creation is a job as well. Unless you hire people but that can also be done with affiliate marketing.


                Nope. You have to send traffic to products you know nothing about, service you know nothing about, and hope and pray that it doesn't refund.
                How do you know I know nothing about the products I am promoting? Refunds are part of this business no matter if you are an affiliate or a product creator.

                You don't have that much control over refunds as a product creator. You might be able to save a few with great customer support but thinking you have a lot of control over that is absurd.

                Customer support does cost money while being an affiliate you don't have that additional expense.

                Regardless, normally refund rates are factored in when deciding what it will take to be profitable. It isn't like a few refunds will devastate the affiliate.

                Like I said, if they set up their business correctly, they will be selling multiple products to the same customer.



                And hope you don't go bankrupt in the process.
                What do you think you will have to do when you try to sell the products you create?

                Test, or do you miraculously get 10k affiliates signing up to your product whenever you create one?

                I wouldn't be a happy affiliate if you didn't test your landing, sales pages and sales funnels before I sent you traffic.

                This is normally called cashflow management. You reinvest profits to continue building your business. Just like any other business.


                When there is no price involved everything changes. CPA offers and Clickbank are two different things e
                ntirely.
                No price involved? That doesn't make any sense.

                First, affiliates that graduate to product creation/selling that follow a proven long term business model are the ones that GET IT. Very few ever reach that point. Anyone can do it, but (as proven in this thread) most people have been pounded with "affiliate marketing millions" for the past 7 years and they can't stomach the fact that what they've been trying for however they've been online is a failure waiting to happen.
                Maybe it is you that don't get it? We are not talking millions here. We are talking about affiliate marketing being successful long term. It can be set up to produce profits long term.


                Second, VENDORS rarely promote other peoples products for profit. Yes, they make money off the sales but the goal is not the money. The goal is the commitment of reciprocation. I mail for you, you mail for me when I launch.

                That's how it works.
                Possibly in product launches but not true outside of them. I think Jim Morris does a lot of webinars with people strictly as an affiliate. He isn't the only one but that isn't about reciprocal mailings but about getting paid a commission.


                If you CREATED the product and it refunds, it's your fault. You control your own destiny. As an affiliate, you have no control over whether the product refunds or not. As a vendor, you do.
                I have no control as a product owner if the person wants a refund or does a charge back. It would be a great world if I had that control.


                I'm sure a lot of affiliates have secured lists. That's what vendors tell them to do. Why should I go out and write articles, buy PPC, videos, etc. when you can go out and do it for me. Let them opt in to your list...I couldn't care less. When they hit my page, they'll opt into mine as well.

                To add to that, you have YOUR list. I have YOUR list and thousands of others...not counting my own that will push my stuff.

                You have YOURS.
                This still says nothing about affiliate marketing not being successful long term. It just says that owning your own product can make you more money and I have always said that.


                E, S, B, I. Read it. Employee, Self Employed, Business Owner, Investor. The cash flow quadrant. I know, I know...Kyosaki is an idiot...but think about it.

                Are you really in BUSINESS for yourself if you can "do it all by yourself" or do you just OWN A JOB?
                I have read it and laugh sometimes when people try to teach me it. You can set up your business, whether it being selling your products or selling affiliates products in any of those quadrants.

                You don't have to do all the work to sell affilliates products just like you don't have to do all the work creating your own products, supporting your own products, driving traffic to your own products and so on...


                Products need to sell. The goal of a business owner is to manage the business...not sell the products. Delegate the work. Henry Ford!
                Still has nothing to do with selling affiliate products.


                Selling other peoples products without providing a service to the vendor (contracts with an up front fee) is not a sustainable business model...list or no list.

                You are always one REALLY bad product away from loosing 75% of your list.
                You keep saying that but still haven't explained why. Most of the stuff you are talking about is why many people start selling their own products. That doesn't mean selling affiliate products can be successful long term.

                It just means you can make more money, get other people to promote and you have more control over the sales funnels.

                You haven't proven that affiliate marketing can't be successful long term. I still say you are showing your ignorance and I suspect getting confused as to what you are arguing.

                You make a great case why creating your own products can be more lucrative and I and many others agree. That isn't what we are discussing though.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551117].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551182].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Ehanson
                    This is an important discussion and everyone is going to have their opinions on the matter. Everyone is entitled to their opinions too.

                    With that said I think affiliate marketing is good for people starting out but in my mind it isn't good for the long term. There are super affiliates out there and they make great money but I started creating my own products a couple of years ago the moment I thought, "You know the creator of this product is making _ % of the sales I'm referring to them. It would be nice if I could make 100%" After I figured out I was building someone else's business I started building my own and thinking of the bigger picture.

                    Plus, Clickbank deducting money from my sales every week that I didn't make a sale really rubbed me the wrong way, especially when I was under the required amount to receive a check. I haven't been there in a few years so hopefully they don't do this anymore.

                    I think it's important to plan for the long term and eventually create your own products or services.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551253].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                    Product creation is part of doing business. It's not a business in itself. Marketing (affiliate or other) is PART of doing business. It's not a business in itself. Customer Service is a PART of doing business. It's not a business in itself.

                    ALL of those functions can be CONTRACTED out.

                    If you are an "affiliate marketer" that contracts with vendors for a fee and provides marketing services, guess what, you are NOT an "affiliate marketing", you own a marketing company.

                    There is a big difference.
                    Ok, we will just say that people are running a marketing company.

                    Obviously many marketing companies have been successful long term.


                    Refunds are a part of doing business that I (as a vendor) have control over. They are also a part of doing business for an affiliate, but the affiliate has no control over it. Vendors can prevent refunds by creating great products and provide outstanding service. Affiliates cannot.
                    Sorry, you can't prevent refunds no matter how good your support or products are.


                    You have 100% control over refunds. Do you think its just a coincidence that IPads don't go back to the store, while Acer netbooks regularly do?
                    Please show me proof of this statement. I find it hard to believe that Apple has no refunds at all.


                    Create a GREAT product and provide GREAT service your refund rate will be substantially lower than a garbage product with somewhat ok service.

                    That is how you prevent it.
                    You are not making sense. First you say you will substantially lower refunds with good customer service and a great product which I agree.

                    You then go on to state you will prevent it which I do not agree.

                    You make two different statements that conflict with each other.


                    You don't have that expense as an affiliate. You are correct. But the "expense' of providing crappy after the sale service is much more of a hit than the expense of provide outstanding service.
                    Do you really think affiliates will continue to promote a high refund product?



                    That all depends. If someone is spending $100 to make $150, a few refunds can bankrupt them.
                    Depends on what their expenses are wouldn't you say?


                    Sure, if you get lucky. One bad product in that string and that customer is gone forever.

                    Yes (I'm anticipating your reply) the same goes for the Vendor. One bad product and he ruins his reputation..BUT...that's HIS FAULT. He has the CONTROL over the creation.
                    Again, for some reason you think the affiliate will continue to send customers to offers with high refunds.

                    You're really stuck on this refund stuff.

                    I don't sell the products I create. I "sell" (promote) my affiliate program, not the product. I realize that an affiliate is MUCH more valuable than a customer. Also, most vendors will do whatever they can to secure the customer as an affiliate as well as a customer. Vise Versa.
                    Yeah, yeah, your products sell themselves just like laser disk did.



                    If there is no price, there are no refunds. If there are no refunds, you can be sure that what is in your stats is in your bank account. Because of that, you can even operate at razor thin margins if you want.
                    Still on the refund stuff. Well maybe if you had any experience in cpa you would realize that a lot of times affiliates don't get paid because their traffic didn't convert to sales on the backend.

                    Normally the cpa network will step in and do what is right but not always.

                    But affiliates, through their companies, still promote cpa offers because they manage their cashflow.


                    Profits require a business. There is a difference between making money and profiting from a company that you own.

                    Maybe it is me, trump, forbes, gates, buffest, jobs, the creator of this forum, and thousands of others who "don't get it". It just so happens that the ones who "don't get it" are millionaires (most of them...certainly not me...but I'm close)...most are BILLIONAIRES and the ones who do "get it"...98% of them are still struggling going from product to product looking for the magic pill.
                    Yet again that has nothing to do with making long term money with affiliate marketing. No one said people were going to be billionaires.

                    How many businesses succeed?


                    You could be right those. Maybe all of the business legends, my college professors, SCORE, and every other TRUE BUSINESS OWNER I've ever met are the "wrong" ones.
                    I am really starting to think you have no clue as to what you are arguing.


                    Sure. I'll do a webby with anyone as long as they do one for me when I ask. I'll do a mail, testimonial, whatever...as long as they return the favor. The money means nothing. It's a way to form a partnership and build the business.
                    I am sure glad you know what is going on behind the scenes.


                    Again, Ipad...netbook. That's the difference. If you don't understand that, I'm sorry. The product quality has ALOT to do with refund rates. The VENDOR has control over quality.
                    Back to this refund stuff you seem to like to talk about.

                    I already talked about this up thread.



                    No you cannot. What you aren't understanding is that (and I can't believe I even have to say this)...A BUSINESS REQUIRES A PRODUCT OR SERVICE.

                    Affiliates provide neither.

                    Sure...it's like subletting a house. If you rent a home then sublet it to me and I trash it, who pays?

                    Affiliates are providing leads and sometimes preselling them. Next you will tell me mortgage brokers and real estate agents are not providing services.


                    I never said affiliates can't make money. I said that it is not a sustainable business model. The affiliates who MAKE IT eventually graduate to product creation because eventually they GET IT.
                    Affiliates isn't a business model as you stated previously but now you're claiming it is a business model. Make up your mind.

                    They understand there is more money to be made with their own products. It isn't about long term sustainability.


                    I can't believe that I even have to prove it. IT ISN'T A BUSINESS MODEL! Period. It's a TOOL just like customer service.

                    It is being pitched as a business model and that is the problem.
                    Yet you called it a business model in this thread. Make up your mind.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551257].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                      Banned
                      [DELETED]
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551341].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                        Marketing companies charge FEES for a service. Think about this. If there was a "marketing company" that operated on the affiliate marketing model (no upfront fees, they pay for all traffic/promotion, they get a portion of each sale, they pay back refunds, they have no say in price, they are out of after the sale service) wouldn't you think that EVERY vendor in the world would just use them instead of affiliates?
                        I always thought commissions where the reason. I didn't know you had to charge up front to be considered a marketing company.

                        You learn something new everyday.


                        I never said they have no refunds. I have said have control over the refunds.

                        You go sell netbooks and I'll go sell Ipads and after 500 sales we will compare our refund rates. Are you going to sit here with a straight face and tell me they will be the same?
                        How about I test multiple products and find out the most profitable. Then I will promote them.


                        Better products have less refunds. That is just VERY basic common sense.
                        Yet some markets, like IM, have higher refund rates compared to other markets. It has nothing to do with product quality.


                        I said the vendor can prevent refunds by creating a great product with outstanding service. This is true. Again, it is basic common sense to understand that GREAT products have much fewer refunds than garbage.

                        I never said they will have ZERO refunds. I said they can prevent them...and they can and do.
                        Something we can agree on. I am sure you know that affilliates don't have to promote your product but can promote a better one that "prevents" more refund through higher quality and better service.

                        I guess they do have some control after all.


                        no I don't. But they have no idea how the product will perform until AFTER it is gone and the money is spent.
                        What money as been spent? You don't know how they are getting traffic. Besides, a lot of money is made through testing.

                        I would hope you are spending money testing your products before you have affiliates promoting them.

                        What happens if you fail? Oh no, bankruptcy?


                        I know, I know (anticipating your reply), refunds rates on Clickbank. First of all, the products that most people promote (I know you dont, but most people do) are under 60 days old. Also, the refund rates on CB are extremely unreliable and can (and are on a regular basis) "tampered" with.
                        Anticipated wrongly.

                        Testing as I said throughout this thread. Something you seem to be concerned with.


                        I never said that. The affiliate has no idea how the product will refund until AFTER the money/time is spent. The affiliate has no control over how the customer is handled or the quality of product being sold.
                        Again, they simply promote a different product. It isn't like most businesses are profitable from day one.


                        I certainly never said this because I don't even know what laser disks are.
                        Damn, showing my age again.

                        No I don't do any CPA stuff. Wait, actually only about half of my business which works out to be about $400,000 per year...but we'll ignore that for now.

                        If the traffic doesn't CONVERT, there is nothing to be paid for.
                        If you do cpa stuff you know there are different types of offers. Some of those "actions" are purchases. It isn't just free product or email submits.

                        Why do you think there is so much scrubbing of email submits?

                        Yes, these companies still need to pay the affiliates for actions taken. Yet some companies don't.

                        I am having a hard time believing you are in the cpa game based on your posts.


                        CPA is pushing free stuff. Completely different.
                        Not all offers are for free stuff. Even with the free stuff there has to be some money being made otherwise why would the companies pay affiliates?

                        You can go over to wicked fire and see some affiliates not getting paid if you don't believe me.


                        No, but it has something to do with BASIC BUSINESS PRINCIPALS. Product, Price, Service. The affiliate has NONE of them.
                        Well, those affiliates are sending you leads which seems to be a nice service for you. Unless you enjoy paying them for nothing.


                        Ones that follow proven plans? Almost all of them. Think of McDonalds. How many close down?

                        People who chase dreams, almost none of them. Think of Affiliate Marketing.
                        Think of all the business that tried to duplicate McDonalds.

                        I will ask again... How many businesses succeed?



                        Insults are coming. I thought you were better than that.
                        Insult? Saying you don't know what your talking about is an insult now? Sorry but that is my observation just like you telling others they "don't get it".




                        Yes. refunds are the most important part of the equation and it is the reason why the affiliate model makes so MUCH sense for the VENDOR and zero sense for the affiliate.

                        You take all the RISK. I get some of the REWARD. I'm good with that.
                        HAHA You're not taking risks as a product owner?

                        As I said, you must be pulling products out of your arse. To think a lot of people do market research, create products, test offers and sales funnels before they put out their products for affiliates to promote.

                        I would have thought there was far more risk doing that compared to sending some traffic to an offer.

                        Live and learn.



                        I love these comparisons.

                        Real estate agents have fiduciary responsibility to the SELLER...not the buyer. They are contracted agents that represent the SELLER in a legal transaction. Real estate agents are guaranteed (although this rarely happens) their commission whether the house sells or not...IF the agent brings a qualifying offer (list price) to the seller before the contract expires (usually 6 months).
                        I will have to remember that when I use a real estate agent as a buyer. I didn't realize they only had a fiduciary responsibility to the seller.


                        Mortgage brokers (again) provide a service to the SELLER (bank) not the BUYER (the client). The relationship is between the BANK and the BROKER...not the client and the broker.
                        And the affiliate provides the service of sending you leads.


                        Both examples have DIRECT client contact and have the ability to make or break a sale. They also have the ability to save a deal. They also have the ability to change the price (mortgage brokers can lower fees, RE agents can tweek the contract...closing date, price, down payment, etc.) and both have control over product. A mortgage broker has a handful of products to present from (usually) hundreds of banks. A RE agent has MLS.
                        My friend who happens to be a mortgage broker almost never meets his loan prospects. Leads are sent through websites. He does correspondences through phone calls, faxes and emails.


                        I've been a licensed RE agent (although I never worked as one) in NJ, NY, and FL for 8 years. Before people question me, Yes, my license is parked at an agency and Yes, I complete my continuing ed every 2 years.
                        Suprising, since you don't seem to understand how some of that stuff works. I was into real estate investing before getting into IM.


                        Like I've said probably ten times now, affiliate marketing is NOT a business model...it's a TOOL just like all forms of marketing, customer service, product creation, etc.

                        Like I said after every time I've said the above, affiliate marketing is being SOLD (via gurus on the net) as a business model. Before we can agree that marketing in itself is TOOL and not a BUSINESS, we first have to revive all the koolaid drinkers who still believe it's a business model.
                        But you keep saying it isn't a viable business model. Maybe you are mixing up the unfortunate people.


                        BTW...it's not their (or your) fault. It's been pitched by the best of the best for years. It's pretty much all any of us have seen so it's only natural to think it's the way!

                        They understand there is more money to be made with their own products. It isn't about long term sustainability.
                        Yet you haven't proven anything.


                        Is this Keith Olbermann? You can't just read part of a line and leave out the entire other half of what I said. That's called "taking things out of context".
                        I thought you were above insults.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551428].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    I just find selling affiliate stuff boring :-(
    Signature
    CONTENT WRITER. Reliable, UK-Based, 6 Years Experience - ANY NICHE
    Click Here For Writing Samples & Online Ordering
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550170].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sts2k
    i think its a stepping stone for a lot of people into other business ventures
    Signature

    PM me if you are interested in working with a skilled development team.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550176].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author George Gomez
    IMO, IF you understand markets and you know how to sell, affiliate marketing is sustainable for as long as you keep understanding those markets and providing them with what they want/need.

    As an affiliate you are providing value, you are adding liquidity to a market, just as in stock market for instance.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550222].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      When a visitor clicks through and buys a product who do they see? VENDOR!

      When they have a problem with the product, who do they contact? VENDOR!

      When the price is wrong, who's at fault? VENDOR!

      When they want more "product" who do they contact? VENDOR!

      Whos name do they remember? VENDOR!
      I would agree with this if the affiliate is doing the bum marketing style of hit and run marketing. If you are doing it as your business model, however, you have a list and a relationship with your buyers. In that case, the answers change to affiliate in most cases. It depends on how you are running things.

      There is no one size fits all in business and marketing, whether online or offline. Trying to insist that there is just makes you look arrogant, which is why you're getting some of the reactions you are getting.

      Tina
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550254].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        offline. Trying to insist that there is just makes you look arrogant
        Look arrogant?

        I think the jury has already rendered a verdict on that one.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550276].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
          IMO, affiliate marketing is a tool. The smart marketers who see the big picture are not "sitting back and waiting", they are establishing authority in a niche and catering to their list within that niche annually by utilizing quality products.

          If you have been fortunate enough to build 52 products in your niche and able to send out a unique offer each week to your list, even every other week and 26 products, more power to you...I highly doubt it though. Meanwhile, I am maintaining my authority by researching endlessly and having as many high quality and well supported products which relate to what my specific list is interested in at my fingertips waiting in the queue to go out and make me money.

          With 50 or more websites out there, if you are in 50 different niches, I am sorry but you are not establishing authority. 10-15 sites all within a specific niche and building a list which is susceptible to many quality products is one of the best business models possible. Limiting yourself to only one aspect of internet marketing is for newbies and not for established marketers to boast as if they know everything as a vendor to one or two markets.

          Expand your perception and expand your business, establish authority within the niche and utilize as many quality products as possible. Highly sustainable and much more so then a single product or even a small series of products created by you or your team.

          Sure, in theory it sounds much better to have the control and have affiliates working for you instead of them but to simply dismiss affiliation as if it is not worth implementing into your business model is a silly argument. In the real world, theory is useless and catering to a list is where the money is.

          I could learn to build software too instead of buying $600 products like Photoshop and save that money, within your theory there is a comparison unless you are too thick to see it. My point here is, in the real world I simply do not have enough interest in say womens shoes to do the research and create a quality product where I have to cater to the customer base and support the product answering questions ets etc...BUT I do still want to make money within that niche if possible by utilizing affiliate offers or to incorporate a broader customer base which may also be interested in my wife's handbag product. Just an example.

          In everything there is a give and take, go ahead and dismiss affiliate marketing all you want and point out the flaws. Just as many flaws and headaches in being a vendor. There are definite positives in affiliation though and many huge companies out there who allow you the lowly affiliate to utilize their established brand and make some money in the process. Places like Linkshare are a perfect example, and the companies which you can attach your business model to are very far beyond your advertising power but yet it is still possible to get in there and make it happen. Linkshare has vendors like Microsoft, Blizzard Entertainment etc etc. I have no hope of creating products on such a scale that I can create authority within the mentioned highly profitable niches, computer products-online gaming, BUT through affiliation I am able to still get in there and make some money off a multi-million dollar customer base.

          Think small and be small, less competition for me. :p
          Signature
          Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

          Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550546].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Just one question Danny. Nothing to do with this topic as I am done with it.

            Are you from New York or New Jersey?

            If so, which state?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550556].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550584].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                I have a house in Seacaucus, a condo near my office in Midtown and I also have a house out in Montaulk across from Hither Hills. I'm going out there tonight to board up for the hurricane.

                Now that I answered your question, can you answer mine?

                Are you "done with it" because you can't prove me wrong or are you "done with it" because you don't want to admit I was right?


                Oh and BTW...Are you taking my job offer? Window seats still available.
                Your answer explains a lot.

                Now let me explain the problem I have with your definitive statement,
                which I think is this.

                "Affiliate marketing is not a sustainable business model"

                Actually, you went as far as to say affiliate marketing isn't a business
                model at all, let alone a sustainable one.

                Well, if we're going to agree that it's not a business model at all, then
                it doesn't matter whether it's sustainable or not. So your statement, on
                that level, is faulty.

                So let's say that what you actually mean is that affiliate marketing is not
                a sustainable way to make a consistent income online, meaning, one day,
                sales will stop and you will stop making money.

                If that is true, what allowed you to make money in the first place? If it's
                not sustainable, it shouldn't be attainable at all. And if it IS attainable, why
                can't the same tactics that attained the income, whether it be a review
                site, showcase, or whatever, be sustainable for a length of time...even if
                it means you have to continually look for new products to sell because old
                ones become obsolete?

                If you can have one year of earning 6 figures as an affiliate, which many
                have done, why can't you have 10 years?

                You either can or you can't.

                What? You suddenly become stupid and forget how to run an affiliate
                marketing model? (Okay, I won't call it a business)

                My contention is with the statement that whatever you want to call
                affiliate marketing (a business or a schlock operation) is not sustainable.

                That statement is absurd, because it IS sustainable.

                Now, having said that (and I am speaking as somebody who has created
                over 200 products) if you put a gun to my head and said "Choose, affiliate
                marketing or product creation" then there is no contest in my mind. I
                would pick product creation any day of the week because, as you said, I
                have control over everything.

                However, you can't paint this as a clear black and white issue. There are
                pros and cons to both models.

                Product Creation

                Pros

                In control of entire process.
                Can get an army of affiliates promoting for you.

                Cons

                You have to create the product. (Not everybody can do that or has the
                capital to have products created for them)

                In short, some people just aren't cut out to create their own products.
                Hell, they can't even string two coherent sentences together or write one
                line of code. And as I said, they don't have the funds, or for that matter,
                the foresight to come up with product ideas.

                Also, with product creation, you take all the initial risk. If you create a
                product that's a dud, whatever time and expense you spent...it's lost.

                With an affiliate, they do a simple PPC test campaign and if the product
                doesn't convert, they're out a few bucks. And if you're smart, you won't
                even touch new products unless the product creator has PROVEN it
                converts.

                Guess how he does that?

                You got it. He has to do the initial promotion to find out.

                That costs time and money.

                Think it's easy getting affiliates to an untested product?

                Think again.

                Also, with few exceptions, most products have a limited shelf life. It's not
                like you're going to create one product and retire off of it. My first product
                sold over 200 copies a month for almost a year. But eventually, sales dried
                up. Plus, the product became so outdated that to overhaul it would have
                taken an enormous amount of time.

                So a new product had to be created.

                In the digital information product industry, it is rare that a product lasts a
                long time. Yes, it happens. Look at Travis Sago's "Magic Of Making Up"
                which is about getting back with your ex. Relationship products like these
                will probably always be evergreen or close to it.

                But info in the "make money online" niche?

                Forget it. With how quickly things change, these products are usually
                outdated in a year or less.

                So you're constantly having to create new products.

                How is this really much different from finding a product as an affiliate?
                And as an affiliate, the process to find a product, as opposed to creating
                one, is a lot less time intensive.

                Affiliate Marketing

                Cons

                No control over price of product or support vendor gives.

                Few products have staying power, which means affiliates have to
                continually look for new products, which is why I like the review site
                model. But...this takes a lot of time and effort to set up.

                Pros

                You DON'T have to create anything. There are literally thousands of
                products in hundreds of niches to choose from. If you do your research
                sufficiently, you can find the good products to promote.

                No customer support hassles. It's the one thing, as a product creator,
                that doesn't exactly make me all warm and fuzzy.

                Final Words

                As I said, if I had to pick one, I'd pick product creation. But not because
                I couldn't make a steady income as an affiliate (which I still do now going
                on 7 years) but because, for me, the process is more efficient.

                And...I do it without relying on an army of affiliates. In fact, if you check
                my Clickbank gravities, they're all under 5.

                And...most of my products don't even have an affiliate program.

                In fact, you would probably say that my business model as a product
                creator sucked.

                Considering how little I leverage affiliates, you're right...it does suck.

                So it's not Product Creator or Affiliate that makes your business model
                successful.

                It's HOW you run it.

                THAT is why I have a problem with your statement..."Affiliate marketing
                is not a sustainable business model"

                I'll concede it's not a business model. No sweat off my brow on that one.

                But NOT sustainable as a steady income generator that can make you just
                as much money as a product creator?

                Sorry...but that's where I can't admit to being wrong

                You believe it's not.

                I believe it is.

                And I've been doing it for 7 years now.

                I guess when the day comes when I am no longer able to sell products
                as an affiliate, I'll come back to this forum and admit that I was wrong.

                Until that happens, I won't.

                I hope this clarifies my position on this matter.

                Product Creator over Affiliate Marketer?...Absolutely.

                Affiliate marketing not sustainable?....Sorry, don't agree.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550693].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550831].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post


                    Are you taking my job off or not?
                    What does your job offer prove? That people don't want to cold call?

                    Sorry, most of your arguments are silly.

                    Besides, if I took your job offer I would be doing a lot more with those leads besides trying to sell them on one product. Like I said, silly.

                    I remember Jeremy posting something about selling his site that captured mortgage leads for mid 5 figures. I don't think it would be too hard for Jeremy to do that once a year.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550842].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                      Banned
                      [DELETED]
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550850].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                        OK, I'll change it.

                        You dont have to call.

                        You have to buy mailing lists and send out postcards. When the customer calls back he speaks to someone else.

                        If the deal closes, you get commission.

                        If it refunds within 60 days, you get your money taken back.

                        $35 per month desk fee.


                        Any takers?
                        I didn't realize affiliate marketers had to produce leads the way the product creator dictated.

                        I also didn't realize affiliate marketers only promoted one product instead of capturing the lead and promoting several products.

                        Still silly....
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550865].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                          Banned
                          [DELETED]
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550993].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                            What you (and others) are doing is trying to justify your business model...and you cannot.
                            You can't justify your arguments. Everything I have read from you must be based on complete ignorance because most of it doesn't make any sense.

                            You really didn't address any of my posts. I am waiting for your rebuttals but all I get is this little remark.

                            I guess selling stuff that people want is a bad business model now.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551007].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                              Banned
                              [DELETED]
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551023].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                I was getting my children ready for bed. I know I should have addressed your post before I did that but they have a bed time and we stick to it.

                                No problem. Family is more important then forums. I just saw you arguing with Steven and thought you had time on your hands.

                                I never said that.
                                That is the basis for affiliate marketing or did I miss something?
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551039].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                  Banned
                                  [DELETED]
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551070].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post


                                    People don't need to LIKE me...I couldn't care less actually...as long as they UNDERSTAND how it works.
                                    I don't dislike you. I just think you are not making your argument. I would rather have people creating and selling their own products as well.

                                    I don't think it is the message more than the way you're talking to people. Look at the post where you tell Steven to drink some wine.

                                    Then again, I tend to rub people the wrong way as well.
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551331].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                      Banned
                                      [DELETED]
                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551358].message }}
                                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                        Banned
                                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                        I tell him to drink some wine because he's loosing his mind on me. I told him to drink some wine, he told me he wants to "settle this offline"?

                                        are you kidding me?

                                        If there is ONE person in this thread who has treated everyone with respect, Its me and to be honest, it took a lot. I've been called every name in the book and I've just sat here and kept proving my point.

                                        That Steve guy tried example after example and I kept proving him wrong. What did he respond with? NAME CALLING.

                                        Take a look at his profile. It's not the only time he's been "insulting others".

                                        I NEVER insulted ANYONE in this thread (or any thread). I am not stating my opinion as some may think...I'm stating a FACT that is based on years and years of history and that FACT is backed by every successful business person that I've ever met, read, heard speak, or whatever.

                                        Marketing is a TOOL not a business.


                                        And I never said you didn't like me. I'm just saying that I understand that the truth hurts at first...but I also understand that it sets you free in the end.

                                        Let me give you a crazy analogy. If I'm a drug addict and my family has an intervention, I hate them for it. Once I recover and get better, I love them for saving my life.

                                        No, I'm not calling anyone drug addicts and I'm not telling anyone to hate their family. It's just an example.
                                        You only proven things in your own head.

                                        BTW, I am not an affiliate but sell my own software programs. It isn't like I don't know or understand what your talking about. I have no vested interest in affiliate marketing since I don't do it.

                                        I just think you are confused as to what your arguing.

                                        Calling me Keith wasn't intended as an insult? Yeah, right.

                                        Well, unless you say something different I will bow out of this thread. You seem to be saying the same stuff over and over again.

                                        If I don't answer back, it isn't because you "got me". You can just use the many, many responses in this thread that I have already made.
                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551436].message }}
                                        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                          Banned
                                          [DELETED]
                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551479].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                            Banned
                                            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post


                                            Just remember, the truth will make you miserable at first but it WILL set you free.
                                            If that is true then why was I so happy when the divorce papers were signed?
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551506].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                      Telemarketed leads are worth 5 times what Internet Generated ones are, if the the current market prices indicate anything. An insurance lead for a company with 50 employees or more is worth 100 bucks per lead. A telemarketer can generate one in an hour or two.

                      Thats the price I used to get from an allstate agency.

                      Call in health leads go for about 20-35 per lead and a TSR can generate 3 of those per hour.


                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      What does your job offer prove? That people don't want to cold call?

                      Sorry, most of your arguments are silly.

                      Besides, if I took your job offer I would be doing a lot more with those leads besides trying to sell them on one product. Like I said, silly.

                      I remember Jeremy posting something about selling his site that captured mortgage leads for mid 5 figures. I don't think it would be too hard for Jeremy to do that once a year.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550868].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                        Telemarketed leads are worth 5 times what Internet Generated ones are, if the the current market prices indicate anything. An insurance ;lead for a company with 50 employees or more is worth 100 bucks per lead. A telemarketer can generate on in an hour or two.
                        No doubt John.

                        But we are not discussing telemarketing in this thread which is why I am puzzled by this offer.

                        The example he is trying to use doesn't really work unless you are doing direct linking.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550887].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                          No doubt John.

                          But we are not discussing telemarketing in this thread which is why I am puzzled by this offer.

                          The example he is trying to use doesn't really work unless you are doing direct linking.

                          I was responding to someone who was surprised I would think so highly of affiliate marketer when I am a telemarketing guy... kinda got sucked in... Im out Thomas. Can I get one rub though first...? I got some wishes.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550936].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                    It's NOT...but it is pitched as one. Marketing is a TOOL used by businesses...it's not a business in itself.



                    Not true at all. It isn't a business but it is SOLD as one. We have to get over one hump at a time.



                    Never said you couldn't make money. I said it wasn't a sustainable business model...and it isn't. Making money and building a company are two different things.



                    I made ONE SALE as an affiliate. The second I realized what I was doing I stopped, went to SCORE, developed a business plan, got some funding and 6 months later I made my second, third, fourth, 100th sale...OF MY OWN PRODUCTS!



                    Because you are working a model that is built on a house of cards and you have 4 hurricanes lined up off your coast. Eventually the wind will blow and knock you down.




                    You can't.



                    You are really big on the name calling huh? Classy.

                    I made one sale as an affiliate 5 years ago and stopped dead in my tracks. Besides JV launches where I get a commitment of reciprocation, I don't promote anyone else's things.



                    It is not.



                    Would you take the job I offered? If so, 9AM tomorrow. If not, rethink what you are saying.



                    I'd never put a gun to anyones head unless they busted through my door at 3 am with masks on. Even then I'd probably not let them get that close.



                    Pros and Cons - One is a sustainable long term business model...One isn't.



                    Do you think Steve Jobs solders Iphones together?

                    Business Plan, Funding, Development, Implement the plan!

                    People can offer services can't they?

                    And some people (although I usually disagree with this) aren't cut out for it.



                    Thats MY FAULT. I control my own destiny. There's also this little thing called a PRE-LAUNCH. Break it down to 5 separate parts. Prelaunch each PART. Track, Tweek. Put them all together (if they all work) and Launch!



                    And once it converts, wait 60 days to spend the money.



                    Let's see. I can do a pre-launch for $20 or I can go see the new Stallone movie. Hmmmmm.

                    I'm thinking again.



                    I would assume, judging by what you've said in this thread, that you pushed all those sales to your product?

                    But if you did it the right way, you were making 200 sales a month DOING NOTHING! If some refund, who cares...you have other affiliate flooding your site anyway.



                    That depends on the product/service itself. There are plenty of products that last a very long time. And if you feel you need to revamp it, then REVAMP IT. You are in business. Product development is part of running your business.



                    The only expense is TIME. You should feel LUCKY. The only thing that is required to create a new product or revamp an old one is (maximum) 4 days.



                    But do the products change? Think about that before you start saying things like this.

                    The products out today are teaching the same thing The Rich Jerk taught 7 years ago. Maybe not word for word but it's basically the same concepts.



                    Not really.



                    Because you are in control.



                    You do not list any PROS at all. Everything you've listed is a CON.



                    I wouldn't say it sucks...I would say that you aren't working it in the most effective way.


                    So it's not Product Creator or Affiliate that makes your business model
                    successful.



                    As an affiliate you have nothing to RUN.



                    Finally!



                    Actually I never said any of that. You can make MONEY as an affiliate, but making money and building a PROFITABLE COMPANY are two different things.

                    Affiliate marketing is being pitched as a BUSINESS and it is a JOB.




                    Are you taking my job off or not?

                    Danny, you keep repeating yourself over and over. You've essentially said
                    that every theory I have on running an Internet business is wrong.

                    If that's true, I should be a total failure.

                    I'm not. I'm very successful.

                    I'm done with you.

                    And no, I don't want your job offer or your attitude.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550966].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                      Banned
                      [DELETED]
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550980].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                        How many times have you said that?

                        Still waiting for the Amazon and Cnet answers.
                        Forget it...you're not worth it.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550992].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                          Banned
                          [DELETED]
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550994].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                            WOW. Really? By the willow trees?
                            Know what? You're not worth my time anymore. I'm already angry enough at
                            myself for having wasted so much of it with an egotistical, pompous know it
                            all.

                            How in the world do we all survive without your amazing wisdom?
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550996].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                              Banned
                              [DELETED]
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551086].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                You are making it seem like I'm in here telling people that I just figured out a way to walk on water.

                                This is BASIC, "Entrepreneurship 101..10th grade" stuff. In order to have a business you need customers and a product/service to offer those customers. Without that you have nothing.
                                You know what Danny...you're right.

                                Affiliate marketing sucks.

                                Now, I'm putting a challenge to you.

                                Email your list of affiliates (assuming you have a list) and tell them what
                                you told us in this thread and the other one, or better yet, email them the
                                URLs to each thread.

                                We'll see how long your business survives after they've all taken your
                                sage words of advice.
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551098].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                  Banned
                                  [DELETED]
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551105].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                    Change your username to "Words In Your Mouth Wagenheim".

                                    I never said that at all.




                                    I'm not here to recruit affiliates. I'm here to talk BUSINESS with other BUSINESS owners and help people out who aren't quite where they want to be.
                                    You don't have to recruit affiliates. Just tell the ones you already have
                                    what you've told us here.

                                    Or are you too afraid to do that?
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551109].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                      Banned
                                      [DELETED]
                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551120].message }}
                                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                        Do you think Jobs reveals his business plans to some 19 year old kid at an apple store?
                                        This is what they call, in a court of law, non responsive.

                                        It's pretty much what I expected.

                                        Thomas, do yourself a favor...save your breath...unless you just have
                                        nothing better to do.

                                        I really need to put this thread to bed.

                                        Danny, I'd like to say it's been fun, but people like you are the reason I
                                        don't go to New York anymore.
                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551131].message }}
                                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                          Banned
                                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                          This is what they call, in a court of law, non responsive.

                                          It's pretty much what I expected.

                                          Thomas, do yourself a favor...save your breath...unless you just have
                                          nothing better to do.

                                          I really need to put this thread to bed.

                                          Danny, I'd like to say it's been fun, but people like you are the reason I
                                          don't go to New York anymore.
                                          It isn't about him, Steven. It is about others that may read this thread.
                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551147].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                            It isn't about him, Steven. It is about others that may read this thread.
                                            Well, I gave it my best shot (read my posts) and I have nothing left.

                                            Good luck picking up the mantle
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551152].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                              Banned
                                              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                              Well, I gave it my best shot (read my posts) and I have nothing left.

                                              Good luck picking up the mantle
                                              I think this was a good thread. There is a lot of information in here and should help out a lot of people.

                                              Get some rest.
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551161].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                                                You know, there are hundreds of thousands of variations and exceptions to the rule in just about every instance of business.

                                                In some cases affiliates are much better off then the vendor, some cases the vendor is in a better position and others where they are both equally benefiting by doing business with one another.

                                                There is no way to effectively argue affiliate marketing is not sustainable. Case in point, think about how many established big name marketers in the make money online niche have simply fallen into doing pretty much nothing but promote products as an affiliate to their huge lists. Easier money then creating more products will ever be. Some start with affiliate marketing, use product creation to establish their own personal brand and then finish back at affiliate marketing.

                                                It is probably safe to somewhat assume affiliate marketing is not the best tool to rely on by itself but you simply cannot say it can't be done. These things being discussed are merely tools to use within your business and none of them are all encompassing and effective business solutions to all your problems. When used together though they have tons of benefits to every marketer on the planet.

                                                Depending on your chosen market choosing to ONLY create your own products could be just as harmful to your bottom line as choosing to only setup affiliation. For example, if your chosen market is online multiplayer gaming there is no chance your self created product will ever match up to the potential you have in advertising World Of Warcraft as an affiliate, never going to happen. Smaller more lucrative markets maybe you can curb more profit by having your own product sure but like I said, this thread does not factor in every possible scenario.

                                                Opportunities are dependent upon one's own perception of them and therefore rely on an individual to make the most of it. Anyone who reads this thread needs to understand, throwing away affiliate marketing all together is not an ideal situation unless you plan to endlessly produce products with fresh ideas and cater to your list without repeating yourself, which to my knowledge is VERY hard to maintain. JVs or not affiliate marketing has it's place in every successful online business, unless that is you define success as something different then I do.

                                                I think the OP and those who are arguing his points are closely saying the same things but simply do not see it in the same light. You say "tomahto" he says "tomato" but essentially you are saying the same things. To the OP, how about you just concede that affiliate marketing is as useful to you as creating your own products is but you simply prefer the less effort needed to sustain your own products while affiliates go out and do your advertising for you. That way you can agree with the arguments presented since truthfully affiliate marketing is just as necessary to you as it is to anyone else with a ton of sites out there on the net.

                                                I certainly don't see anything ground breaking here in that you can make more money and have more control by creating your own products. The difficulty lies within your delivery and how seemingly you are knocking affiliate marketing as if people are stupid for ever getting into it in the first place unless they are only interested in furthering their own business.

                                                I mean if you are seriously only interested in yourself and how many are on my mailing list to promote my product while I promote yours well you sound like a bit of a prick. Business relationships are not ONLY established by using me for my list, least not where I come from. I don't like being a pimp to my list, I like delivering fantastic products and content to them.


                                                Edit: AND ANOTHER THING! lol As an affiliate you should be somewhat appreciative of the opportunity to make some money riding the coattails of the product creator who allows you to advertise their product. Not always true I guess and many people have different perceptions but I feel it is a nice give and take relationship where the affiliates should be more aware of just how little work they had to do to start getting sales for a product which may have taken months of research or years of experience to produce.

                                                Sorry but any of you who want to tell me you created this super great awesome product in only a few hours, I am not going to buy it and am pretty sure it is crap. Too many products out there which are a very vague outline of opinions rather than a solid outline of what to do here, how to do it and why.
                                                Signature
                                                Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

                                                Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551294].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                  Banned
                                                  Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post



                                                  I certainly don't see anything ground breaking here in that you can make more money and have more control by creating your own products. The difficulty lies within your delivery and how seemingly you are knocking affiliate marketing as if people are stupid for ever getting into it in the first place unless they are only interested in furthering their own business.
                                                  Exactly. Danny makes a great case as to why you should be creating your own products. It is pretty much the same thing I and a lot of others have said on this forum many times.

                                                  Unfortunately for him, he is missing the mark on this debate which is long term sustainable income strictly from affiliate marketing.
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551307].message }}
                                                  • Profile picture of the author LeeSteese
                                                    There is a huge difference between having a paycheck and having a business. That seems to be the point a lot of people are missing here.

                                                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post


                                                    Unfortunately for him, he is missing the mark on this debate which is long term sustainable income strictly from affiliate marketing.
                                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551535].message }}
                                                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                      Banned
                                                      Originally Posted by LeeSteese View Post

                                                      There is a huge difference between having a paycheck and having a business. That seems to be the point a lot of people are missing here.
                                                      Please clue me in on how I missed it?

                                                      I don't think most people on this forum want to create a business to be perfectly honest.
                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551542].message }}
                                                      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                                        Banned
                                                        [DELETED]
                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551574].message }}
                                                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                          Banned
                                                          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                                          Then you don't understand what this forum is all about.

                                                          haha Thanks for the insight since you have been a member here for so long.

                                                          I am perfectly clear as to what this forum is about. I am also pretty clear as to the questions that are normally asked and have a pretty good feel for what people are looking for here.

                                                          I am starting to see the arrogance.
                                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551596].message }}
                                                          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                                            Banned
                                                            [DELETED]
                                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551686].message }}
                                                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                              Banned
                                                              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                                              Yes, you've been a member longer than I have. But it seems you can't understand basic business principals. I am not insulting you, I am making that judgment based on what you have been writing.
                                                              That sucks since I have a bachelors degree in business.

                                                              I really don't think you have a clue based on your posts. Not judging but a lot of people try to pretend they are experts in order to sell their wso offers. Like the one in your sig.

                                                              You basically pay 10k affiliates for providing no value. That doesn't sound like great business sense but knock yourself out.

                                                              Apparently, for a company to be legit they need to ask for an upfront fee and cannot work on a commission base.

                                                              Sounds like you got the biz stuff down. Reading all the Kyosaki really did wonders.
                                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551695].message }}
                                                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                                      Banned
                                                      [DELETED]
                                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551580].message }}
                                                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                        Banned
                                                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                                        True Lee. That is what everyone is missing. People think that just because they receive a check from some online activity that they are running a business. That is NOT the case.
                                                        Why do you think I made the statement that most people here don't want a business. :rolleyes:
                                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551598].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author BishopMartin
                                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                            It isn't about him, Steven. It is about others that may read this thread.
                                            The others that are reading this thread (or at least this non partial observer) think that Danny is certainly making the better arguments and providing better rebuttals..

                                            He has done a good job demonstrating that being an affiliate is more like a having a job, or an example he has not used but I will, being a Multi Level Marketing rep, then starting a sustainable business.
                                            Signature
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554353].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                              Banned
                                              Originally Posted by BishopMartin View Post

                                              The others that are reading this thread (or at least this non partial observer) think that Danny is certainly making the better arguments and providing better rebuttals..

                                              He has done a good job demonstrating that being an affiliate is more like a having a job, or an example he has not used but I will, being a Multi Level Marketing rep, then starting a sustainable business.

                                              I am glad you speak for everyone else.
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554369].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                Banned
                                                I am curious. Is Apple a sustainable business without Steve Jobs?
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554395].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author BishopMartin
                                                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                                I am glad you speak for everyone else.
                                                Hey, I added the caveat to my statement to specifically avoid this response.

                                                Funny thing is i'm still not sure I agree, but he is doing a fine job with his arguments..
                                                Signature
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554730].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author connorbringas
                                                  I do agree with some of you, eventually luck might run out..so you always have to be prepared for something else. Stop stressing and enjoy the ride
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554746].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                  Banned
                                                  Originally Posted by BishopMartin View Post

                                                  Hey, I added the caveat to my statement to specifically avoid this response.

                                                  Funny thing is i'm still not sure I agree, but he is doing a fine job with his arguments..

                                                  I am only teasing you Bishop. I don't do affiliate marketing.

                                                  His arguments are the same stuff a lot of us have been saying for a long time in regards to why people would be better off creating their own products.

                                                  IMO, he hasn't shown why affiliate marketing can't be sustainable.

                                                  It is much easier to attain that as a Vendor. I don't see anyone ever saying otherwise.
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554756].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
            Banned
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550569].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

              This site, along with SCORE and college, made me.
              I was just working on a project earlier today and "What am I overlooking...I wonder how SCORE could help me with this" popped into my head. Contacting SCORE is now on my action list for that project. It's an amazing resource.
              Signature
              "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
              ~ Zig Ziglar
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550606].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

              I don't think anyone ever said that. I said just the opposite. Affiliates are VITAL to the vendors success. The question of the thread is what side do you want to be on.
              Okay, I thought the question of the thread was, is it a sustainable business. My question to that:

              Is your online business sustainable without it?


              I hear you there. I just have a soft spot for the warrior forum. I've been reading this site for years...been a member for a few months. This site, along with SCORE and college, made me. I can't just sit back and watch people get lead down the wrong road.

              If they want to hate me, that's fine. As long as they GET IT, I'm ok. I just want to see others succeed!
              No, I can partly agree with what you are saying, but everyone has to start somewhere. Some people move on to create their own products, some people go a whole different route by simply focusing on flipping domains, some people incorporate as many freely available aspects of the internet marketing world to create an epic empire of tightly networked authority sites and make a killing.

              It is all within us to do any of the above but affiliate marketing all on its own can be sustained as a primary income. As you point out though there is a lot of "back to square one" if something does not go as planned. Same thing can be true as a vendor too, if your site tanks on launch day, if a huge sharing site gets your product and suddenly everyone has it for free etc etc. There is risk in everything and people need to take some initiative on their own to decide what they want to do.

              Allen Says put out a lot of PDFs which detail what you are saying very eloquently, available in The War Room.
              Signature
              Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

              Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550677].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

    One of the bones of contention in my little row was the assertion that the affiliate had no real product of their own.

    That's where he's wrong.
    Indeed.

    Totally, utterly, completely wrong.

    And this is the part of the "argument" that actually matters, and signifies something.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550242].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      While you're choking on the Amazon example Danny, let's take cnet.com.

      All they do is review products...thousands of them.

      They're probably one of the BIGGEST affiliate marketing sites on the Internet.

      How do you think they make their money?

      NO product
      NO after sale service
      NO control over price

      Want me to dig up some more Danny Boy?

      Affiliate review sites are some of the best affiliate marketing business
      models on the Internet.

      And you don't have to be the size of cnet to make money and run a
      sustainable business.

      Pick a general niche, any general niche, health, electronics, etc.

      Find every product in existence that you can and review all of them,
      making sure you have your affiliate link after each one.

      Doesn't matter which model or product the person buys. You get paid
      regardless. And if your reviews are honest and you've earned some trust
      online as an authority, like cnet, there is no reason why you can't make
      a killing and sustain that model for many, many years.

      This whole discussion is utterly ridiculous.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550270].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550282].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

          LOL. Choking?
          That's all you have as a retort to my Cnet example?

          Thought so.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550296].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
            Banned
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550328].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author A Bary
              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

              I also love how you NEVER rebut any of the points I bring up. If you did, you'd be admitting you were wrong.

              You continue to keep trying to find examples that prove me wrong, but there are none!

              I addressed a ton of points relating to Amazon. You have no answers to those?

              Cnet is a Content/Advertising model. Their product/service is the CONTENT and the rev stream is advertising. Just like a TV channel, newspaper, magazine, etc.

              That is a perfectly viable business model that has been proven throughout time but completely different than affiliate marketing.
              I saw the previous thread, and got a headache reading all your posts here...

              Man..really...you need to get a life!

              What kind of business do you manage that gives you all this free time to defend a WRONG opinion...?

              Sorry, but I doubt you know anything about business, because if you do, you'll know that you can't simply separate affiliate marketing from other business models, because successful vendors who worth their salt know how important affiliates are for any product/service..

              The real turning point for the business of any vendor is the point where they get super affiliates promoting their business/product/service...(if you have doubts, you can ask Bluehost about the 7 Million dollars they paid to their affiliates the last year).

              If affiliate marketing isn't profitable for affiliates...the whole business will just fall down..

              Spending time fighting with smart marketers here and refusing to learn or understand is an indication that you may need to check other options....
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550443].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author affhelper
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        let's take cnet.com.

        All they do is review products...thousands of them.

        They're probably one of the BIGGEST affiliate marketing sites on the Internet.

        How do you think they make their money?

        NO product
        NO after sale service
        NO control over price
        Well, I am going to disagree on this sorry.

        Cnet's product? 169k pages indexed in Google with Alexa ranking 38 - That's their product.

        They provide software submission service. Some of the bigger software producers pay huge amounts of money to Cnet for distribution.

        Cnet's list is ridiculously HUGE

        No control over price? Google pays them special rates so Cnet keeps their Adsense ads on it. The rate is very very lucrative too I am sure.

        Can't compare them to an affiliate site. Just saying
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2559451].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2559454].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            My upfront costs are right around $500 plus 2 hours for a new product, 20 minutes for a recycle.

            The price is $197 for a complete video series that lasts about 7 hours.
            Okay, I want to know your secret for making a video series that lasts 7 hours but you only take 2 hours to create it?

            I'm not being facetious or getting back into the debate because I actually do see your points now...lol. I just want your time management secrets.

            Tina
            Signature
            Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
            Fast & Easy Content Creation
            ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2559533].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I'm not particularly a fan of the way affiliate marketing is conducted by a lot of people - and I think that is a major factor in why it has such a high failure rate across the sheer volume of people who engage in the activity.

    But reselling other people's things is as old as commerce itself.

    In the mercantile economy it was called "retail".

    In the industrial economy, it was called being a "manufacturer's rep".

    In the computer age, it was called an "indirect marketing channel" or VAR (value added reseller) marketing.

    In the information economy, it's called "affiliate marketing".

    How are these "unsustainable"?

    I think the real missing link with a lot of people in THIS business is that they think they're in business with their monitor.

    They don't realize that PEOPLE STILL BUY FROM PEOPLE - regardless of what is being bought and sold and the original source.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550273].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
      Banned
      [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550295].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

        You seem like a pretty reasonable person. And hey, you haven't insulted me yet so that's a good thing.

        The problem is not the fact that people are selling other peoples products...the problem is the lack of CONTROL.

        Affiliate marketing is completely different than the other examples you've given.

        A "rep" has a direct impact on the buying process. That is the contact for the client. When a rep sells a product and the customer needs more, they call the rep. When that person has a question, they call the rep. When that person needs service, they call the rep.

        With affiliate marketing, none of this is true.

        Use the example I gave above.

        If I offered you a job and these were the details...would you take it?

        You work at my mortgage bank.
        You pay for all the leads.
        You call everyone and just say "Hi I'm Jon, let me get you a broker"
        You have ZERO CONTROL after that point.

        You get paid NO SALARY or FEES.
        You only get commission if the deal closes.
        You get your commission taken back if the deal renegs within 60 days.


        Would you take that job?

        If not, you should rethink affiliate marketing.
        There's no reason for me to insult anyone. That's generally not my style - I might insult an idea and poke holes in it, but not the person who came up with it. It's the idea that's under scrutiny, not the person.

        Yes, I agree that the nuances you've presented about some affiliate deals is quite valid - and can even be problematic.

        You have zero control over what happens. Zero control over the sale. Zero control over customer service.

        But that is because most of the people in internet marketing think that their customer is the person buying the product. That's not your customer, that's the vendor's customer.

        Your customer is THE VENDOR.

        You're providing the service of supplying them with traffic in exchange for a percentage of any potential sale.

        This shift in perspective is something that needs to happen for a WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE INTERNET MARKETING GAME.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550379].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550397].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            So let me ask you a question. WHY ARE YOU THE ONLY ONE WHO GETS IT?

            Your customer is the VENDOR not the BUYER!

            Because of that, a "professional affiliate" will charge a FEE regardless of conversions or product sales PLUS a % of the sale.

            Think JV Broker.

            Because I understand the function of marketing and business beyond "internet marketing". I recognize the end customer of the actual fruits of my service and systems.

            Incidently, I am NOT an affiliate marketer for this reason.

            I am in the business of selling shovels to vendors who want to build an affiliate marketing channel (and automate it with lots of toys).

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550494].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
          Affiliate marketing IS A SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS - for the merchants.


          In fact, I am kicking myself daily for having gone for the quick cash for so long. If I had it to do all over again, with my more mature understanding of customer lifetime value and the calculus of customer acquisition costs, I would have been offering 100% commissions on high end products to top affiliates with high converting traffic...

          @Michael and Danny, with all due respect, I think you guys are speaking Spanish to native Norwegians here....lol

          I appreciate you trying to get people to take the red pill though (or is it the blue pill? I don't know...)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550416].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
            It is perfectly possible to run a sustainable (and highly profitable) business based on affiliate marketing only, I know this from my own experience.

            I've pocketed as much as $100,000 doing one affiliate promotion, and I'm not exactly a big player in any market. I just know how to create super responsive lists, and get people to buy stuff, my own or other peoples.

            Although I do play on both sides, if I didn't create products/services too my inner creativity would go nuts with lack of an outlet.

            If my creative engine ever ran out of steam, I would happily be an affiliate only and would probably do just as well.

            But anyway...each to their own.
            Signature
            'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550478].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Shame on me for letting myself get sucked into this argument, YET AGAIN.

              As I said in the other thread (which I've yet to return to) I'm done with this.

              The sky is blue.

              No, it's black.

              Whatever.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550484].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author peter.max
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Shame on me for letting myself get sucked into this argument, YET AGAIN.

                As I said in the other thread (which I've yet to return to) I'm done with this.

                The sky is blue.

                No, it's black.

                Whatever.
                Affiliate Marketing works for some people and it doesn't for others. It's like one type of offline business for some and not for others. I just read Steven's "4 Steps To Starting A Successful Business " and I have to agree with him that it really depedant on your business plan and what you choose to focus on. It works if you focus your education, actions and dollars on it. It doesn't work is you jump between various business models doing a lot of activity but little or no actions.

                I personally don't do affiliate marketing. I am too busy focussing on my own niche ("renting" lead generation mini sites for offline busines for a monthlly fee). I can't commit the time and effort to be succesful at affiliate marketing. But I am sure that I could if I wanted to. I could focus my time on it and build a sustainable business.

                It is also important to note that affliate marketing is not the same as Clickbank. It is just one (popular) affiliate site. I know an "affiliate" marketer aka "middleman" that makes a small fortune promoting high end engineering equipment with his own affiliate sales agreements that he set up with product vendors.

                Affilliate Marketing can be a sustainable business if you have a business plan for it. If you jump around between IM models you probably won't be successful at building a sustainable long term business.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552718].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Luke McCormack
    Affiliate marketing definitely a useful learning curb from sale page set up, OTO, affiliate areas, list building etc.

    Do not think it should be dismissed so lightly as a long term business stream either.

    Regards

    Nigel
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550300].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    I just wanted to chime in real quick...

    From my personal experience and general observation I think affiliate marketing can be a long term model, but it's not an ideal long term model for certain business goals and objectives.

    Affiliate marketing has constraints that are inherent to the model itself. If your goals fall within certain limits then you can do just fine as an affiliate long term. If however you want your business to grow beyond a certain point then odds are your going to hit certain walls that are difficult to overcome as a pure affiliate.

    That's not to say you can't overcome those walls as a pure affiliate, especially with some creative outside the box thinking. But on the whole, if you want to make millions, 10's of millions or more revenue per year, then odds are your going to have a harder time reaching and maintaining those levels long term a pure affiliate.

    The amount of leverage, scalability and optimization is highly constrained for affiliates compared to the actual product vendor. The vendor has much more data to work with for analysis and optimization as well as more control over the entire sales process, marketing funnel and overall business strategy surrounding the product.

    Answering the following question can provide many answers to the key points in this entire discussion...

    Do you know of any 7 or 8 figure "pure" affiliates who have maintained those income levels for more then 5 years?

    I imagine there maybe a few, but in my opinion you'll have a much easier time hitting and maintaining those levels as a product vendor. But again not everyone is looking to make 7,8 or 9 figures a year from the efforts. So it all boils down to what you want from your business now and in the future.

    Lastly it's much easier to create and execute an effective exit strategy if you control an actual product. To me this is crucial for any long term plan since you never know what the future holds or what you'll want to actually be doing 5 years from now.
    Signature

    ****************************************
    Spy & Track Winning Facebook Ads

    Spy & Track
    Winning Google Content Network Ads
    Spy & Track Winning Bing & Google PPC Search Ads
    â„¢ACP - Click Here For Details
    ****************************************

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550347].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      Affiliate marketing has constraints that are inherent to the model itself. If your goals fall within certain limits then you can do just fine as an affiliate long term. If however you want your business to grow beyond a certain point then odds are your going to hit certain walls that are difficult to overcome as a pure affiliate.
      I don't agree. Possibly I don't fully understand what you mean, but I disagree with what I do understand.

      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      The amount of leverage, scalability and optimization is highly constrained for affiliates compared to the actual product vendor.
      I don't necessarily agree.

      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      The vendor has much more data to work with for analysis and optimization as well as more control over the entire sales process, marketing funnel and overall business strategy surrounding the product.
      Nah ... he just has different data to work with, and control over different things. I have some data and plenty of control that he doesn't have, too. And I can switch products easily.

      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      Do you know of any 7 or 8 figure "pure" affiliates who have maintained those income levels for more then 5 years?
      No, but it isn't evidential of anything, to me. (I know plenty of affiliates with growing 6-figure incomes, and plenty of struggling vendors, but I don't adduce that as evidence of anything, either.)

      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      Lastly it's much easier to create and execute an effective exit strategy if you control an actual product.
      I don't agree with that at all. I think one has far more flexibility with a choice of tens of thousands of different products.

      Affiliates are building up assets of value, too. They're "authority sites" and they can be sold just like any other business, and they're often effectively free from the risk of being inextricably linked to any specific product(s). This seems to me to be the point that many miss, in these discussions.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550516].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    I knew someone was going to mention sites like amazon, etc. I was actually going to mention them in my original post. Amazon is not a pure affiliate and they utilize multiple models within their business structure. It's a great company to learn from.

    The problem with companies like Amazon or cnet, etc is that for most people replicating a business of that scale and model is difficult...

    However if you want to create a multi million dollar company in a way that is easier to achieve...You can do so by using business models, systems and strategies that have been done over and over again by thousands of entrepreneur and businesses. It's simply a much easier path to follow if you have large income goals.

    Creating your own product isn't the only working model for the type of business I'm referring to, but this discussion is primarily about the debate between being an affiliate vs product owner so I'll stick as close to the topic as possible...
    Signature

    ****************************************
    Spy & Track Winning Facebook Ads

    Spy & Track
    Winning Google Content Network Ads
    Spy & Track Winning Bing & Google PPC Search Ads
    â„¢ACP - Click Here For Details
    ****************************************

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550386].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dk1
    i believe it is sustainable
    Signature

    Investing in document management services is a smart move for any type of business. It ensures that documents are handled in the correct manner and that your documents will be safe when using certain document destruction services, like secure destruction.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550407].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KevL
    Personally, I think affiliate marketing is great - and no, it's not the same as being a sales rep, but - if you want to be a sales rep, then be a sales rep - each to their own. By the way, I've been a sales rep - it's a lot harder than affiliate marketing , you have to actually talk to people, close the sale, get the order, deal with aftersales, etc - it's a completely different kettle of fish to affiliate marketing.

    We all have our own opinions, and we're all entitled to them - but personally I love affiliate marketing, I have my own products too but affiliate marketing can be great for when I have an attentive audience but nothing to profit from. Here's an example:

    A couple of years ago I had a list in a very specialist market that I built to sell offline products, machinery - I found that I couldn't make a profit from the list with the products I was selling. I'd put masses of time & effort & money into it - but I wasn't making a profit from it. So, I started looking for affiliate products to run to the list - I spent some time to make sure I knew what I was recommending, used the product myself - and then I ran a mail to the list - and bang, there's a grand in my pocket, nice! My business wasn't sustainable before - because it was making no money - affiliate marketing injected cash & therefore made it sustainable.

    You can say that this isn't a sustainable business model all you like - but my answer to this is that sustainable means profitable. As long as a business is profitable, then it's sustainable, I'm not sure I understand the comments about affiliate marketing not being sustainable. As long as you still have the attention of your market, as long as people are visiting your site & joining your list - then personally I can't see why it makes a difference whether you're marketing your own products or someone elses, or both.

    All this talk about no control etc - I don't really get it. You have complete control of the products you choose to promote as an affiliate, if you promote something & the refund rate is high - you have the control to stop promoting that product.

    I'm not saying anyone is wrong by the way - everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I'm simply sharing my opinion.

    Thanks

    Kev
    Signature
    SEO Kev
    Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550517].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
      Banned
      [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550553].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author KevL
        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

        Do you get your money/time that you spent promoting the product back? NO!

        Do you have anyone else funneling income into your pocket? NO!

        Could you have done anything to prevent that from happening? NO!

        OK....

        So, can you show me a system where the answers to all of the above are YES??

        If you start a business in which you create your own products - and for whatever reason it doesn't work & you can't make money from it. Do you get your money/time that you spent promoting the product back? NO!

        Do you have anyone else funneling income into your pocket? NO - Not if for whatever reason you find that the product doesn't sell or you can't make a profit from it.

        Could you have done anything to prevent that from happening? Well - maybe you could have, but that's hindsight for you, all well & good but really makes no difference, unless of course you own a time machine & you can go back in time & do things differently.........

        As well as affiliate marketing, I do create my own products, so I'm able to look at this from both viewpoints. There are plus points & minus points with both, but I think you're looking at the alternative to affiliate marketing with rose tinted glasses.

        Cheers

        Kev
        Signature
        SEO Kev
        Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553382].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553481].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author KevL
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            First, product quality RARELY (sad but true) has a negative impact on sales. If that were the case, 80% of the CB products wouldn't be there. Product sales depend on MARKETING....not really quality.

            Obviously quality comes into play with the longevity of the product and also with returns, but if you are talking about SELLING and selling alone (you said "what if the product doesn't sell"), that has very little to do with quality...especially in the beginning.
            I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here - who said anything about quality? What I was saying, is if you create a product yourself & it doesn't sell, for whatever reason - then you also don't get your money back.

            You're skirting around the issue we're talking about - the issue here is that you stated that you don't get your money back or time invested back as an affiliate marketer - and I was simply stating that the same is true with your own products. Or working as a sales person. Or anything else. There is no business, that I'm aware of, in which you get re-paid for your lost time & money if something didn't work out.

            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            Second, like I've said a number of times before, you control your own destiny. If I sell Toyotas and the gas pedal gets stuck and they shut down sales, that's NOT my fault. I couldn't do anything to stop it.

            If I'm the CEO of Toyota though, I really can't complain. The buck stops with ME and if the product fails, ITS MY FAULT!

            Yes, I could have created a better product, at a better price with better service.

            Could YOU (affiliate) have done any of that? NO!

            The fact is that for something not to work you have to try it... If something doesn't work, then you have to start again - what good is hindsight, in that you COULD have created a better product or you COULD have had a better price or service - once again, unless you posess a time machine, the fact that you COULD have done something makes no difference. You're still left with having to start over again.

            The point is, you don't know when you create a new product / service, whether or not you've done all of these things - and it takes time to find out. So the risk of losing money & energy for nothing, is there, in any business, affiliate or not.

            At least with affiliate marketing you can check out the stats, the close rates, the refund rates - and make a good judgement from these figures.

            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post


            There are benefits to affiliate marketing and I've been saying that all alone. Mai reciprocation is one of them. I mail for you, you mail for me.

            The other one is the VENDOR. The benefit to affiliate marketing lies on the VENDOR side...NEVER the affiliate side unless the VENDOR is also the affiliate.
            Danny, as far as I see it - the problem with you & the reason you get people arguing, is you state your opinions as fact. You don't state that these things you're saying are your opinion, you state them as fact period.

            Just read what you said above, you're talking like you are the god of internet marketing, there is a real arrogance which comes through in your posts.

            By the way Danny - are you going to get back all the time you have wasted arguing here? NO!
            Signature
            SEO Kev
            Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553570].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553706].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author KevL
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                I can address your entire post with a few simple lines that has been said over and over again throughout this thread.

                AFFILIATE MARKETERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ANYTHING!

                VENDORS CONTROL THEIR OWN DESTINY.

                AFFILIATE MARKETERS TAKE 100% OF THE RISK FOR A PORTION OF THE PROFIT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT STICK (REFUNDS)!

                VENDORS TAKE ZERO RISK FOR A PORTION OF THE PROFIT THAT IS GUARANTEED TO STICK!

                Now before you reply with the "vendors pay for refunds as well" response, let me address it.

                Vendors do pay for refunds...BUT THEY ONLY PAY THE AFFILIATE FOR SALES THAT DO NOT REFUND.
                Sorry, I still don't get it.

                But I can address your points very simply also....

                AFFILIATE MARKETERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ANYTHING!
                Yup they do - they have complete control of their own website, their own lists, their own marketing, and they have control over what products they decide to market.

                VENDORS CONTROL THEIR OWN DESTINY.
                So do affiliate marketers, nobody is forced to continue promoting a particular product.

                AFFILIATE MARKETERS TAKE 100% OF THE RISK FOR A PORTION OF THE PROFIT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT STICK (REFUNDS)!
                Hmmm. If the affiliate also had to put the time & effort, and money, into creating the product, and the website, and the sales copy, etc etc - then yes, you can say the affiliate takes 100% of the risk.

                The affiliate only takes the risk in terms of directing the visitor to the offer.

                And what is the risk, exactly, that you're referring to?

                If I have a list & I email my list about the product, what am I risking? a few minutes to send an email?

                If I pay for PPC traffic & run that to my affiliate review or whatever then yeah I'm risking the cost of the click - that's true. And personally I don't run PPC for affiliate marketing.

                VENDORS TAKE ZERO RISK FOR A PORTION OF THE PROFIT THAT IS GUARANTEED TO STICK!
                Hey?

                I don't get your point? Vendors also lose their profit if they have to refund? If the customer refunds, then the whole amount is refunded, including the affiliates commission.

                But again, affiliates have the control to allow them to stop marketing an affiliate product if the refund rates are high.


                Now before you reply with the "vendors pay for refunds as well" response, let me address it.

                Vendors do pay for refunds...BUT THEY ONLY PAY THE AFFILIATE FOR SALES THAT DO NOT REFUND.
                They only pay the affiliates for sales that do not refund. hmmmmmm, let me just ponder that one, that amazing revelation you've just shared with us mere mortals..... Well, thank you for addressing that, oh wize one, I don't know what we would have all done without that incredible bit of knowledge.....

                Of course vendors only pay affiliate commissions for sales that don't refund, affiliates get paid a commission from a sale, if there is no sale there is no commission.

                Also don't forget that a lot of the time the affiliate earns more per sale than the vendor.

                Yeah obviously if there is a refund then the vendor and the affiliate both have to cough up.

                You seem to have a big bee in your bonnet about refunds - have you done much affiliate marketing yourself, are you speaking from experience?

                I've been affiliate marketing - and selling my own stuff, for years - I've never had any real problems with refunds. Obviously you always get the odd one, but it's never been a real issue for me personally.
                Signature
                SEO Kev
                Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554513].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author connorbringas
      Of course its a sustainable business you just need to know what your doing..it takes time and dedication just like any job..
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550705].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author connorbringas
      I enjoyed the read and an actual real life example. Affiliate marketing is always changing. Ya it has its ups and downs just like any market
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551028].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author flipfl0p
      Hi,

      I would just like to say tht I agree... IT IS A Sustainable business.

      True that most of the affiliate here create's an affiliate site and then when the product goes down...... So as the site created by the marketer.
      So where's the effort? gone.


      But as John mentioned You don't have to sell right?
      For me an AFFILIATE MASTER does not need products to sell.
      your site is full of Content! Free content, advices, etc. your subscribers trust you and any sales letter won't be ignored.

      Your site is always visited and YOU HAVE MULTIPLE Product within your chosen Niche or PASSION!
      for example if the product that YOU'RE promoting goes down You can still put anything (any products to your site and still your subscribers will get it from you cause they trust you and you have HIGH credibility as an affiliate marketer).

      I Think that is the TRUE affiliate marketing. Unlike affiliate marketing that focuses on one product alone.. A lot of Affiliate marketers wanted the "Gift of the "domain name"". www.keywords.com.org etc etc. yeah and that's great help and for every products they are creating there are NEW websites being created just for the sake of getting the domain name gifts. But what if the product is lost? where is your site now?

      about Refunds. because you are not telling to your customers/visitors all the negative side of the products. Try to be honest and tell every downfall of the product. If it is a bad product don't promote it at all. After all Affiliate marketing is something like "been there- done that" kind of marketing right? So why recommend a product that you are not sure of?

      honest review/recommendation = very low refund rates... kinda low CR but also build credibility
      not telling the downfall of the prduct(and the customer finds out about it) = high refund rates....


      hey guys No offense ment. This is just me and my view of the topic.

      Thanks ^^,
      Signature

      FlipBox

      30 days of Solid Foundation that Hootsuite and All automation can't do!
      Attention! This offer is only limited to 10 copies/orders monthly!
      (will create a Warrior thread in 2 weeks)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2555408].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MarketTrader
      Hey guys

      Sorry for interrupting your debates.

      Affiliate marketing is good start for moving forward if you are starting with little money to none.

      If you already have cash on you, then you probably would want to start an affiliate business while spending time on doing a thorough research and figure out how to make a good product of your own to sell.

      If you're asking if affiliate marketing could be a sustainable business, the answer is why not?

      you can always switch from one product to another within the same related niche, and diversify your model into different types of niches. and of course your list of subscriber should continue to grow if you know what you're doing.

      So Yes, affiliate marketing could be a sustainable growing business if you know what you're doing.

      that's just my opinion

      Cheers,
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2556615].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2556997].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author drmani
          With the affiliate model, the affiliate is taking 100% risk for half of the profits while the vendor is taking ZERO risk for the same half.
          Zero risk?

          See http://slidesha.re/aTyn8C

          Particularly slides 18 and 20.

          Business is risky. Successful business owners manage risk well.

          All success
          Dr.Mani
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557045].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
            Banned
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558180].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558215].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          You know what?

          After Lance's post (which Danny admitted is the best one in this thread so
          far) I finally get it.

          Here's my answer to it.

          So what?

          It's not like product creators are immune to creating crap. Danny you
          yourself gave an example of a product made by a big company that got
          lots of refunds.

          You can screw up your reputation whether you're an affiliate or a product
          creator.

          So what?

          For me, and this is just my personal opinion (not fact, so don't go jumping
          all over me) the advantages of affiliate marketing:

          Not having to create a product
          Not having to bother with the hassles of customer service
          Having the ability to pick from thousands of products to sell

          Makes doing affiliate marketing IN ADDITION to running my REAL business
          of selling my own products, WORTH DOING.

          Wanna call me crazy and F'd up?

          Fine...couldn't care less.

          If I stopped doing affiliate marketing, I'd be out all that money that I
          wouldn't be getting.

          Extra Money that paid up the mortgage
          Extra Money that paid up my daughter's college
          Extra Money that allowed me to build a freaking recording studio

          So please stop telling people, who know what the frick they're doing, to
          stop doing affiliate marketing.

          Your doom and gloom predictions are horse manure.

          You have just as much chance to f**k up as a product creator as you
          do an affiliate if you don't have half a brain in your head.

          I'm going to continue doing all the things I do that generate me a very
          nice income each month.

          Your affiliate marketing negativity has fallen on deaf ears here.

          The rest of you, do affiliate marketing, don't do affiliate marketing.

          It's no skin off my nose.

          I love my recording studio.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557061].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
            Banned
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557086].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

              If we were to go into business together, would you invest all of the money and give me half the profits if my only job was to sit around drinking coffee all day? I'd hope not!

              That's something I will never have to worry about.

              And now, I can FINALLY put this thread to bed.

              You've had your say and I've had mine.

              Life is good.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557093].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                Banned
                [DELETED]
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557100].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                  I get the fact that you don't like me because I pointed out the obvious but you still can't answer the question. Like many other things you've brought up (Cnet, Amazon, etc. etc. etc.) when I rebut them you move on and tell us you are "done with this thread" only to come back when you think you've found another example to prove me wrong.

                  THERE ARE NONE!
                  Man, you can't let it rest can you. It gnaws at you that I don't give a rat's
                  ass what you think about affiliate marketing and I won't bow down to your
                  superiority.

                  My friend, and I use that term very loosely, you can come back at me
                  with anything you want.

                  No, I'm not going to answer anymore of your questions.

                  No, I'm not going to let you get to me.

                  You have anything else to say, say it.

                  I don't care. You mean nothing to me.

                  One day, you'll get it.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557104].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    One day, you'll get it.
                    I was with you all the way, as far as that sentence ... I'm less convinced about that part, to be honest.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557142].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                    Banned
                    [DELETED]
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557147].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Eric Graudins
                      From Steven Wagenheim - The Most Pompous SOB I've Met In 7 Years Online


                      This is the heading of an email that Steven Wagenheim just sent out to his list, of which I'm a member. The pompous SOB he is referring to Danny Adams.

                      He directs people to this thread, and asks them to make a comment.
                      OK, here's mine.

                      After reading most of this thread, I'm inclined to agree with Danny's point of view.
                      Sure, there's money to be made from Affiliate marketing. But that doesn't make it a sustainable model.

                      Equally, you could argue that no business is sustainable, due to a huge variety of events that are out of the owners control.

                      In the end, what the hell does it matter. If something goes belly up in whatever activity you do to earn a living, you find something else to do.

                      In his email, Mr. Wagenheim says "This Danny Adams character is one piece of work".

                      Well, I reckon Mr. Wagenheim is a pretty fair piece of work himself, as evidenced by his responses here.

                      He appears to be quite outraged.

                      But not outraged enough so that he doesn't pass up the marketing opportunity to use this thread to sell "Affiliate Assassin" in his email.

                      Anyway, I'll leave you all to your "pissing up the wall" competition.
                      So far, Danny's way in front in my opinion.
                      The rest of you better go and get ladders

                      And Steven: if you reckon Danny is pompous, then you really should get out more.

                      regards,
                      Eric G.
                      Signature

                      The biggest benefit of the internet is that almost everything can be automated.
                      The biggest curse of the internet is that almost everything can be automated.



                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557379].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                        Banned
                        [DELETED]
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557396].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Eric Graudins
                          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                          I have no idea why Steven would want to show his prospects/customers the way he talked in this thread, but that's on him.
                          I can only see the downside too.
                          Oh well, every man's his own chemist!

                          regards,
                          Eric G.
                          Signature

                          The biggest benefit of the internet is that almost everything can be automated.
                          The biggest curse of the internet is that almost everything can be automated.



                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557423].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Originally Posted by Eric Graudins View Post

                        From Steven Wagenheim - The Most Pompous SOB I've Met In 7 Years Online


                        This is the heading of an email that Steven Wagenheim just sent out to his list, of which I'm a member. The pompous SOB he is referring to Danny Adams.

                        He directs people to this thread, and asks them to make a comment.
                        OK, here's mine.

                        After reading most of this thread, I'm inclined to agree with Danny's point of view.
                        Sure, there's money to be made from Affiliate marketing. But that doesn't make it a sustainable model.

                        Equally, you could argue that no business is sustainable, due to a huge variety of events that are out of the owners control.

                        In the end, what the hell does it matter. If something goes belly up in whatever activity you do to earn a living, you find something else to do.

                        In his email, Mr. Wagenheim says "This Danny Adams character is one piece of work".

                        Well, I reckon Mr. Wagenheim is a pretty fair piece of work himself, as evidenced by his responses here.

                        He appears to be quite outraged.

                        But not outraged enough so that he doesn't pass up the marketing opportunity to use this thread to sell "Affiliate Assassin" in his email.

                        Anyway, I'll leave you all to your "pissing up the wall" competition.
                        So far, Danny's way in front in my opinion.
                        The rest of you better go and get ladders

                        And Steven: if you reckon Danny is pompous, then you really should get out more.

                        regards,
                        Eric G.

                        Eric, 2 things.

                        1. I am ashamed of nothing I said in this thread so I have no problem with
                        anybody reading any of it.

                        2. As for the promotion in the email, I believe in affiliate marketing and
                        teach it the RIGHT way.

                        If you found the email or the promotion in any way inappropriate, well,
                        you know where the unsubscribe link is.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557426].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                        Originally Posted by Eric Graudins View Post

                        From Steven Wagenheim - The Most Pompous SOB I've Met In 7 Years Online


                        This is the heading of an email that Steven Wagenheim just sent out to his list, of which I'm a member. The pompous SOB he is referring to Danny Adams.

                        He directs people to this thread, and asks them to make a comment.
                        REALLY?
                        Signature
                        "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                        ~ Zig Ziglar
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557519].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author KevL
                      Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                      Not the first time I've heard this. You apologized for the foul language once before...maybe that will happen again.

                      Most honest, respectful people will understand that when you ask a question and someone provides an answer, it's common courtesy to answer them if they ask you something.

                      I wouldn't expect that out of you. Like I said, we've proven our point here and in other threads over and over again. No need to debunk Cnet or Amazon again.


                      And by the way, it doesn't gnaw at me that you can't understand basic business principals and second grade math. That doesn't bother me at all. What surprises me is that there are a lot of people who actually believe what you (and others) are saying.

                      I'm comfortable knowing that there ARE plenty of people in here that finally GOT what affiliate marketing really is and as long as I (and the others in here) can help those with an open mind, I'm ok with that.

                      Like I've said all along, I'm here to help people. If you want to use your foul language and call people names, I think that just turns people off.

                      Whether or not you are right is besides the point - who cares? Personally, I don't see how you've proved your point, you've just said the same things over & over again - and they still don't make sense, certainly not to the degree you seem to be sure they do. There have been some interesting points on both sides, but other than that - I don't think anything ground breaking has been shared or discovered here, which is a pity - if you hadn't thrown your weight around it may have been a more intersting & valuable discussion, rather than a slanging match.

                      You came straight into this looking for a fight - like a red eyed maniac storming into a bar! - The original person you picked the fight with, walked off, so you antagonized the punters until someone with a backbone stood up to you, and then you goaded & antagonized him - and now you're trying to play victim!!

                      It's a pity that you can't debate without assuming such a high & mighty stance.

                      I agree with Steven that it's your god like manner which is the problem - I've not seen you at any point being humble in any way. You state your opinions & beliefs as solid facts - and if someone has a differing opinion you take the immediate assumption that you're right & they're wrong & you shout them down.

                      You have a very antagonistic manner, you can't discuss without shouting, typing in caps, being arrogent & coming accross as a complete know-all.

                      So, nice try - with trying to turn it around at the end & make Steven look like the bad guy, I think most people here are too intelligent for that though - and they'll see the game you've played.

                      Cheers

                      Kev
                      Signature
                      SEO Kev
                      Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557813].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                        Banned
                        [DELETED]
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557837].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          @DannyAdams

                          You claim you never said that I will eventually fail.

                          Here is post # 206 from this thread in answer to my question below:

                          At what age will I be grateful that I do sell my own products and didn't
                          just rely on affiliate marketing because suddenly that model will be dead?
                          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post2553851

                          Your exact reply:

                          I can't tell you when it will happen, but it WILL eventually happen.

                          Okay, so stop playing word games. You point blank told me that someday,
                          my affiliate marketing model will fail me.

                          THAT is an absolute that you have NO way of knowing unless you're GOD.

                          I am so sick of trolls like you coming here and spewing your trash like it
                          came down from God almighty.

                          And I will CONTINUE to call you out on EVERY absolute you spew so that
                          people who don't yet understand that nothing in life is certain, either way,
                          won't buy into this rubbish without at least testing it out for themselves.

                          Because otherwise, they could be losing out on thousands of dollars in
                          income because of YOU and your absolutes.

                          Nothing in this world besides death is absolute.

                          NOTHING.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557911].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                            Banned
                            [DELETED]
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2557945].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                              When you are playing with margins that are either negative or zero, eventually the ship will sink.
                              You're playing word games again Danny.

                              Ship will sink?

                              Where I come from, that means eventually whatever it is you're doing will
                              die.

                              So I will ask this one more time and I want a direct answer.

                              I do affiliate marketing. I have been doing it for over 7 years with great
                              success.

                              Will they day come when I will cease to make an income from affiliate
                              marketing?

                              Yes or no?

                              It's not a hard question to answer Danny.

                              Yes or no?
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558023].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                            You came straight into this looking for a fight - like a red eyed maniac storming into a bar! - The original person you picked the fight with, walked off, so you antagonized the punters until someone with a backbone stood up to you, and then you goaded & antagonized him - and now you're trying to play victim!!

                            It's a pity that you can't debate without assuming such a high & mighty stance.

                            Cheers

                            Kev
                            Actually, Kev, I didn't walk off. I took a day off from the computer and this forum (places to be and people to see...)

                            Danny, I never called you anything. I offered a less than flattering review of your posting style in the original thread, and you've done nothing here to prove me wrong.

                            Coming back and reading the 6 pages of discussion, I think the major bones of contention between us are in our definitions.

                            In the original discussion, you made a remark about no affiliate growing to a multi-billion dollar business. That would relate to the scalability of the affiliate model. On that, we do not disagree - the top end potential of a successful vendor business is greater than that of an affiliate. It has to be, else there would be no reason for vendors to make the attempt.

                            I also think we may be viewing the "sustain" part differently. Like the "star shop" ad agency or consultancy, an affiliate business built solely around the affiliate's talents and efforts is only sustainable for as long as the affiliate wants to sustain it.

                            In that sense, it's similar to single-product vendors. Since you like to use Apple and Jobs as an example, let's look at them. What would have happened if Jobs and company had stopped with the Apple II? Apple would be dead. It took the Macintosh, and later the iPod, iPhone and iPad to re-invigorate Apple as both a brand and a company.

                            So one could argue that banking solely on a single product is not a sustainable business model.

                            You like to keep mentioning refunds. Here's my take on that.

                            Looking at a single refunded transaction as an independent event, again we do not disagree. On that particular event, if the product refunds, the affiliate is out of luck - whatever resources were used to generate the sale are gone.

                            On a larger scale, one can factor in refunds as a cost of doing business. If you do provide a stellar product with outstanding service, and your offer reliably converts the traffic the affiliate sends at a certain rate, the affiliate can assign a value to each visitor they send you. If they make more on every visitor they send you than it costs to get the click, they can sustain that stream for as long as they want. If some outside force renders the affiliate unable to profitably send traffic to the vendor, both lose out on that portion of their business.

                            If the vendor's business depends on affiliates sending them traffic, that vendor is up the proverbial creek without a paddle, the same way many one-trick pony affiliates would be up the creek if Google changes their ranking algorithm.

                            One more quick point...

                            Way back on page one of this thread, you took a swipe at me by implying that I would promote a product without having some knowledge of the product and service offered by the vendor. Not accurate.

                            One can promote a product which represents a good value to the buyer, from a vendor who offers at least satisfactory support. Over time, that can change - the vendor gets sick, gets tired of supporting the product, maybe even decides their future is lying on the beach with their JV launch buddies. At that point most good affiliate businesspeople will do two things:

                            1. Switch to a new vendor who does provide a product and service at a good value, and

                            2. Tell their audience that the original product no longer represents the same value that it did when the original recommendation was made.

                            The affiliate may indeed lose a portion of their list, but they will also engender loyalty from those that remain.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558034].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                              Banned
                              [DELETED]
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558113].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post


                                Coke, Pepsi, Tylenol, Advil, Band Aid, Pampers, Huggies, Etc. Etc. etc.

                                Sure, coke has Diet. Pampers has overnights. But their Product is the same. Drinks, Diapers. I think it would be hard to argue that Coke would be OOB if Diet never came out. Same with Pampers and Overnights.
                                Those are products not companies. If you delve into what the companies own I bet you will see they do have a lot more products then just those brands.

                                At one time Coke owned several fast food companies like Taco Bell.



                                The Vendor - TOTAL control over product/service quality
                                Spends - $0 (after initial investment of domain, hosting, time)
                                Sales - The same $2,000
                                Profit - $1,000
                                Risk - ZERO
                                Apparently you don't have to pay for market analysis, product creation, packaging (sales pages, graphics, etc) and product support. If you do I can't see why you have zero risks if your product or sales funnel fails to deliver sales.

                                There are more costs then traffic generation.
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558867].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author KevL
                              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                              Actually, Kev, I didn't walk off. I took a day off from the computer and this forum (places to be and people to see...)
                              Haha, sorry John that wasn't meant as a dig at you! In fact I thought you were the smart one by not allowing yourself to br pulled into it.

                              Cheers

                              Kev
                              Signature
                              SEO Kev
                              Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558124].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author KevL
                          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                          I am not starting a fight at all. If people keep quoting me and commenting, I'm going to keep responding. Unlike some other people here, I'm not going to say something, have someone reply to it, then run away.

                          I've been saying the same thing over and over again because people keep trying to give examples to prove their point and the answer to it is always the same.

                          100% risk...50% profit....no control = Affiliate

                          0 Risk...50% profit...all control = Vendor.

                          That is NOT an opinion. It's the NUMBERS of the plan. Sure, the 50% could be 75% or 25% or whatever...but the risk has to match (or be less than) the reward (profit). If the reward (profit) is less than the risk, the model has a hard time being sustainable. When the risk is 100% and the reward is less than 100% the model CANNOT work.

                          It's math. Not an opinion. 2+2=4. If you say 2+2=5, that's not an opinion.

                          BTW...caps? shouting? insulting? Care to prove any of that or are you just going to put words in my mouth like some others. Again, I've never insulted anyone on this thread or any other!
                          Unlike some other people here, I'm not going to say something, have someone reply to it, then run away.
                          You've done exactly that yourself - you didn't reply to some of my points, I took it that you chose to ignore them because you couldn't answer? Maybe you just missed it?

                          Also, how can you say something like

                          Unlike some other people here, I'm not going to say something, have someone reply to it, then run away.
                          And then say that you don't insult anyone?


                          First of all, you came in with lots of shouting, at John:

                          Nope. Not fair enough. A quote from YOU "his cocky, arrogant insistence on being right, his condescending attitude toward anyone who disagreed with him". Now are you talking about YOURSELF or are you talking about me in this quote?

                          I was just telling you how it is...and you couldn't take it. I never insulted or talked down to ANYONE. That was YOU and a few others.
                          Clearly you were angry with John - even though he hadn't mentioned your name so you didn't really need to come in all guns blazing.

                          You've done this through most of you posts, lots of caps, which comes accross as shouting.

                          for instance, when you replied to me with the following:

                          Do you get your money/time that you spent promoting the product back? NO!

                          Do you have anyone else funneling income into your pocket? NO!

                          Could you have done anything to prevent that from happening? NO!
                          You're shouting at me, NO NO NO - rather than talking. This I find annoying. What I also find annoying is the fact you state things as fact rather than your opinion.

                          You know - as I'm looking through your posts, you seem to have an addiction to caps.

                          Like this:

                          ALL of those functions can be CONTRACTED out.
                          If you were talking to someone, if you shouted out the "contracted bit" in a conversation - that would get you some very funny looks. Slightly random.

                          You do it all the time, I took it as agression & arrogance - but looking through it now, it looks like you have a cat sat on yout desk that keeps just sticking it's paw on your shift key as you're typing. Quite random.

                          Just go through some of your posts Danny, you state things as fact, you tell people that you've "told them over & over again" like you are the boss.... this & the fact that you bark at people in caps - it rubs people up the wrong way.

                          Thanks

                          Kev
                          Signature
                          SEO Kev
                          Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558262].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                            Banned
                            [DELETED]
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558278].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
                              Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                              100% risk...50% profit = affiliate

                              0% risk...50% profit = vendor.


                              i can't make the numbers any smaller. sorry in advance.
                              What are you talking about seriously?

                              0% risk for being a vendor? Since when did it become FREE to develop new products, sales letters, videos, design and marketing material? That's a substantial cost, unless of course you are just rehashing and rebranding old news in the internet marketing niche, in which case you really just prey on the desperate and naive.
                              Signature

                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558368].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Pedro Ferreira
      John is right. Affiliate marketing CAN be a sustainable business.

      If you don't think so I don't know what planet you come from.

      Google, the internet king, makes money as an affiliate site. Facebook, MySpace, you name it, they are all affiliate sites.

      They sell ads (attention as John said) to other websites, and that's what you do as an affiliate.

      Those who have the attention (traffic) are the ones in control.

      If you think creating a product is more sustainable than being an affiliate, tell all your affiliates to stop promoting your website and then see how sustainable your business is...

      PS: See how I emphasized "CAN"? That's because there's no point arguing if a business is sustainable or not. If you can make money once, you can make money twice. You can also make no money, it just depends on your skills.

      EDIT: Oh Snap! I just noticed I answered a 6 month old thread :|
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558603].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Pedro Ferreira View Post

        EDIT: Oh Snap! I just noticed I answered a 6 month old thread :|

        What are you and Terry talking about?

        This thread is 3 days old.

        Where do you guys get 1 year and 6 months from?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558625].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pedro Ferreira
          Ahah, you're right Steven

          I just looked at the date and read it the way we do in Portugal. We use day-month-year most of the time.

          Oh well, I need to get some sleep...


          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          What are you and Terry talking about?

          This thread is 3 days old.

          Where do you guys get 1 year and 6 months from?
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558653].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
            Okay, it is time to unleash some Mayhem on this thread, I've been resisting.


            Affiliate marketing is not a sustainable business model in the sense that you can build a marketing firm, make your own prices, pave your own way utilizing vendor's products and then pass it down through the generations under your business name. Right? Well whatever...

            Affiliate marketing products and "guru" teachings, based on the above paragraph cannot be precisely referred to as teaching business models, fine, simple semantics.

            BUT...

            What they DO teach is HOW TO SELL! IF you know how to sell it is only logical to scale up your efforts and move on to collecting all the profit instead of a percentage thus rendering you to be in business as you are providing some type of information to a customer base which you have control over. This is logical and sensible progression for internet marketers and should be the goal of ANY affiliate marketer. Nothing new there, many warriors say the exact same thing in different ways, as mentioned numerous times. No matter what anyone says, if you know how to sell, you are in complete control of your destiny and have choices and options.

            To shed a Mayhem twisted up light on affiliate marketing, USE the vendor's product to learn how to sell. Assume these risks Danny keeps mentioning together WITH the VENDOR because I don't care what he says, of the risks which are involved in selling there are ENOUGH risks in both aspects of the acquisition of the sale to be mentioned here, affiliate AND vendor. You are not JUST making the vendor rich, you are being rewarded for learning to SELL and collecting a commission, often a higher percentage then the vendor gets. It is a win-win when you look at it correctly. The only true mentionable risk is if you are spending your funds unwisely on paid traffic generation leading to a product which does not CONVERT, do that and you.. are.. fail!

            Refunds are a part of doing business just as the FEE the vendor pays to even offer his product, as well as the SALES Fee he pays to the affiliate network he has his product for sale on, if he uses a network like Clickbank that is, if not then the software he bought to offer it and establish an affiliate program is also an expense. The added expense he pays in supporting the product long after you are off with your affiliate commission is truly where vendors pay, believe me. All things mentioned are simply prices of doing business and pretty standard though, nothing to be afraid of. Do your research and only offer good products to keep the specific risk to you as an affiliate, refunds, to a minimum.

            Good affiliate learning materials will never teach you to NOT research a vendor, to NOT require solid selling data to base your decision on PRIOR to promoting, and they will NOT give you skills to learn which you can only use in being an affiliate, actually the good learning products do the opposite. IF you can sell stuff successfully, you are a little over the halfway mark towards making it as big as you want as long as you continue to put forth the correct effort.

            Stick to logic, develop your own products once you learn to sell because one of the BIGGEST and most IMPORTANT aspects of this business is the MARKETING of a PRODUCT, as in SELLING SOMETHING!

            Establish your selling skills and move it on up to the East Side by selling your own stuff, if you want to further your reach become a VENDOR, BUT never betray the hand which fed you because OBVIOUSLY, based on the major contributor in this thread, you miss A LOT of learning about people skills and the nature of this business by NEVER participating in a much needed aspect of your own understanding by BEING an AFFILIATE. If you possess the skills to market any product by simply using a simple link on a page you know how to drive traffic to, you have the opportunity to sell all on your own and not even use an affiliate network. All that depends on the next sentence though...

            Regardless of if you assume all the risks and have little control over what the vendor decides to do with his or her product or if you develop your own product...if you can drive traffic and SELL, you have CHOICES!

            The CHOICE to switch to a higher converting, or simply BETTER product is always there as an affiliate.

            The CHOICE to capture the information of the visitors you send towards a vendor or who are simply interested in your product and market MANY products to a targeted list.

            Also, you have the ABILITY to track and manage all your commissions, study the products which convert the best for you AND to base all that knowledge you have from selling other peoples products on developing your OWN information product BUSINESS with a leg up on vendors who were never an affiliate.

            All these things are skills and tools to generate income, income which you then establish a base of operations around and acquire a business license to own and operate your empire. Once established and successful with your own investment capital, you can do anything you damn well please. If you want to simply continue building authority niche sites and offer affiliate products, you can do that. If you want to move on to develop your own product or series of products, you can do that. If you want to develop your own mixed hybrid of affiliate marketing/product creation business you can do that as well.

            Always be on the lookout for as many income streams and different aspects of income generating efforts you can utilize your skills with. Never sit dormant just waiting for the day when an offer goes belly up on you or an account gets frozen or who knows....maybe even affiliate marketing gets killed by Web 2.0 (doubt that one though!)

            Be a smart marketer, utilize your skills, continue learning always, be respectful, kind and generous towards your customers and those you do business with, establish your own brand, become known as an authority in something even if it is simply NOT being a jackass...

            Think big, BE big and leave all the naysayers in the dust! Believe in yourself and get your start, the world is your oyster. (where did that phrase come from, your oyster? lol)

            This thread has gone in circles with a focus on insignificant definitions of irrelevant aspects of making money. If what you do makes you money, don't let anyone discourage you from doing just that. Affiliate marketing is a tool to use to make money and what Danny does not get and cannot or will not admit to is his negative browbeating approach simply gives off a negative impression of affiliate marketing which is NOT an accurate way of portraying affiliate marketing to those who come in here to read this thread and decide on the next logical step towards taking action and generating money/income.

            The only motivation I have seen by anyone who has come into the thread to argue his points was to convey there is MONEY TO BE MADE with affiliate marketing when done properly. Nobody can argue that so defining risk and management becomes irrelevant to your profit margin until it is relevant to you personally as you learn and grow as a marketer. Take into account how and where to build a list and also take into account your opportunities to market to that list and you will see just how viable affiliate marketing is to your ability to profit. That is all you need to know.

            Whew, just wore down a few buttons on my keyboard again. Anyone who wants to mention my caps, yes I was yelling.

            /end Mayhem
            Signature
            Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

            Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558701].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558746].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                can you please mention what the risks are for the Vendor?

                please do not say "well they have to pay for a ebook cover". That's ridiculous. You know as well as I do that the cost is small to get everything going. Sure, if you need to use a broker, costs go up, but they are still minimal compared to the affiliate.

                Convert? Or Convert and stick?



                Now we are using the $49 fee as a "risk" the vendor is taking? 2 sales and he breaks even on that "risk".

                The affiliate is playing catch-up (and I mean this literally) before the day even starts. They are down before they wake up and they are constantly chasing the break even point.

                The vendor wakes up at EVEN and is constantly growing.

                Remember, they are only paying for SALES.



                I agree with you here. Good affiliate learning materials, just like sales training materials when you get a job at a Honda store, will tell you about your JOB and never portray that job as a business.



                I agree with you here. The lesson is not WHAT is sold...it's HOW it's sold.



                I'm not here to pick up affiliates or try to outright lie to people. i'm not saying you are lying to people, I'm just saying that I'm not here for that.

                The numbers don't add up and I'm going to say it when I see it.



                'Regardless of if you assume all the risks and have little control'

                REALLY?



                And by the time he realizes that the offer isn't converting, refunding or the product is BAD, their money is already lost. Will they get that investment back? NO. If they had control over the product, price and service, they would have the ability to ensure that this wouldn't happen.



                I hope I'm not the 'naysayer'. Just the opposite. Affiliate marketing is a LOW LEVEL OF THINKING. The model isn't sustainable and the numbers do not make sense. If anything, I've been the one telling people to rethink what they are doing and get on the right track.



                That's the longest sentence I've ever read and I don't even know what it means.

                I have not been negative towards anyone here at any time. i'm simply pointing out a major flaw in a model that most people here are using.



                WOW. that's all I can say. WOW.

                I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE in the business world say that Risk and Management are irrelevant at any point of a company's growth.



                I wasn't yelling at all.
                Look Danny, round and round this goes but the bottom line is affiliate marketing has it's place in the internet marketing industry and you purposely give it a bad name by pointing out the flaws within it.

                You are not helping anyone to understand they should start with affiliate marketing and you are not taking into account how in most cases marketers cannot develop a product and become a vendor with no experience behind them.

                Affiliate marketing is a great place for people to start and to learn to sell, say that.

                Risk management is not an issue to affiliate marketers until they begin to spend money on paid advertising. Advertising poorly supported products is nothing but a bad decision and I don't care what you say we all can and will make a bad decision somewhere, recovery from them though is completely possible.

                Just do us all a favor and incorporate something sensible into your all knowing version of best business practices by giving people here who are new something of value to get started. I say that because of those of us who are established all we really see is how you have a narrow minded approach to what is relevant and what will be of use to people.

                Very rarely can a new person come in and start with developing products, especially in the make money online niche. Anyone who encourages them to skip the affiliate marketing aspect of learning all there is to know about online money making practices is doing them a disservice.

                Don't throw your money at advertising until you generate free organic results and know the product will convert for you, super sensible and easy to figure out. Try your hand at developing products with no experience behind you and let me tell you, your reputation will get tarnished much much worse than it will by sending out an offer to your list which isn't exactly stellar in the long run.

                As a vendor you need to become established somehow with expertise in your chosen niche. Go running into it green and there is much more then risk, there is a high likelihood that you will fail. Analyze how much help you are truly offering here and how actionable it is for the good of the thread. Many warriors who are downright spectacular people have come and gone and gotten fed up with your inability to compromise on some key points that deter people from affiliate marketing as if it is all bad with no good.
                Signature
                Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

                Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558837].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

                  Look Danny, round and round this goes but the bottom line is affiliate marketing has it's place in the internet marketing industry and you purposely give it a bad name by pointing out the flaws within it.

                  You are not helping anyone to understand they should start with affiliate marketing and you are not taking into account how in most cases marketers cannot develop a product and become a vendor with no experience behind them.

                  Affiliate marketing is a great place for people to start and to learn to sell, say that.

                  Risk management is not an issue to affiliate marketers until they begin to spend money on paid advertising. Advertising poorly supported products is nothing but a bad decision and I don't care what you say we all can and will make a bad decision somewhere, recovery from them though is completely possible.

                  Just do us all a favor and incorporate something sensible into your all knowing version of best business practices by giving people here who are new something of value to get started. I say that because of those of us who are established all we really see is how you have a narrow minded approach to what is relevant and what will be of use to people.

                  Very rarely can a new person come in and start with developing products, especially in the make money online niche. Anyone who encourages them to skip the affiliate marketing aspect of learning all there is to know about online money making practices is doing them a disservice.

                  Don't throw your money at advertising until you generate free organic results and know the product will convert for you, super sensible and easy to figure out. Try your hand at developing products with no experience behind you and let me tell you, your reputation will get tarnished much much worse than it will by sending out an offer to your list which isn't exactly stellar in the long run.

                  As a vendor you need to become established somehow with expertise in your chosen niche. Go running into it green and there is much more then risk, there is a high likelihood that you will fail. Analyze how much help you are truly offering here and how actionable it is for the good of the thread. Many warriors who are downright spectacular people have come and gone and gotten fed up with your inability to compromise on some key points that deter people from affiliate marketing as if it is all bad with no good.

                  Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
                  thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you

                  I can now die in peace.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558851].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558666].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pedro Ferreira
          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

          I can win at roulette once, twice, ten times in a row...but eventually we all know what happens....WHY? Because the RISK is 100%.
          Business = Risk

          better yet

          Life = Risk

          If you're not confortable taking risks, I'm afraid there isn't a job I can recommend you...
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558686].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
            Banned
            [DELETED]
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558716].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              In case anybody cares at this point, the original thread that started this
              insanity several days ago has been deleted.

              One can only wonder why.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558735].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Pedro Ferreira
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          Risk of roulette is 100%? That doesn't even make sense, I'm afraid.
          It doesn't.
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558696].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558711].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Pedro Ferreira
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            You play roulette for 10 hours straight and you'll learn RISK.

            You can win a few times in a row but eventually you will loose.

            Normally if someone sees a good converting offer, they'd scale it up (more money/time)

            Apply the same logic to Roulette. If you win, scale it up..keep scaling.

            You can win 5 games in a row. !0 even. But eventually you WILL loose.

            The numbers are against you the entire time.
            I honestly can't understand your comparison of a roulette with affiliate marketing.

            A roullete is a game without "memory" which means none of the plays influence each other. Play A does not influence the probabilities of play B, etc. That's why it is called a "bad luck game" (at least here in Portugal). You can't trick the system and you can't get better at it.

            Affiliate marketing is a "memory" game. Each play influences the next. Each mistake or sucess you make contributes to your knowledge and skills to control the system.

            I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, can you tell me a business without risk?
            Signature

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558736].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Birch
        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

        I like you Kev. Jump in and I'll back you up no matter what side you are on.
        OK you're on- here you go! Have fun!

        Originally Posted by Pedro Ferreira View Post

        Affiliate marketing CAN be a sustainable business.
        Heck, I just love one liners . . .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2558777].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550540].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

      Since the job market is terrible, I figured I'd start a company and offer all warriors jobs.
      Here's the deal.

      You work for my Mortgage Brokerage.

      All you do is cold call.

      You buy all the leads.

      Your pitch is "Hi, this is (Name), hold on" Then hand me or one of my partners the phone.

      You only get paid if the deal closes.

      If the customer "refunds" within 6o Days, you get your money taken away.

      You will have to pay $35 per month to the office building for your desk and your phone.


      If anyone is in New Jersey or New York (or want to move to tri-state area), YOU ARE HIRED...No questions asked (drop outs, felons, whatever).
      Depending on your closing ratio and the commission, that could actually work out to be a pretty decent deal.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550557].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      How about this? I get my telemarketer to run a 10 lead campaign for you, and you pay me $1000 cash upfront.

      I will have your leads to you by the weeks end.

      Thats more like it.


      Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

      Since the job market is terrible, I figured I'd start a company and offer all warriors jobs.
      Here's the deal.

      You work for my Mortgage Brokerage.

      All you do is cold call.

      You buy all the leads.

      Your pitch is "Hi, this is (Name), hold on" Then hand me or one of my partners the phone.

      You only get paid if the deal closes.

      If the customer "refunds" within 6o Days, you get your money taken away.

      You will have to pay $35 per month to the office building for your desk and your phone.


      If anyone is in New Jersey or New York (or want to move to tri-state area), YOU ARE HIRED...No questions asked (drop outs, felons, whatever).
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550742].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Oh, one last thing that I forgot.

        Two of my over 200 products are these.

        Complete Guide To Product Creation
        Affiliate Assassin

        Guess which one sells more?

        Nobody wants to learn how to create products, no matter how easy I make
        it sound.

        Everybody wants to be a kick ass affiliate marketer.

        Truth is, creating products is NOT easy...at least not creating products
        that actually have some real value.

        That is why not everybody wants to do it.

        In a way, I can't say I blame them.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550757].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author LeeSteese
          That's because, as Clayton Makepeace said so nicely the other day, nobody ever went broke by UNDERestimating the intelligence of the average American. It has nothing to do with which one is actually a better business model, and everything to do with what the average, underinformed and lazy fool thinks/hopes is the best business model. The average sane person seems to somehow become nuts and want to believe in the tooth fairy when it comes to a business online.


          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Oh, one last thing that I forgot.

          Two of my over 200 products are these.

          Complete Guide To Product Creation
          Affiliate Assassin

          Guess which one sells more?

          Nobody wants to learn how to create products, no matter how easy I make
          it sound.

          Everybody wants to be a kick ass affiliate marketer.

          Truth is, creating products is NOT easy...at least not creating products
          that actually have some real value.

          That is why not everybody wants to do it.

          In a way, I can't say I blame them.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551466].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

      Since the job market is terrible, I figured I'd start a company and offer all warriors jobs.
      Here's the deal.

      You work for my Mortgage Brokerage.

      All you do is cold call.

      You buy all the leads.

      Your pitch is "Hi, this is (Name), hold on" Then hand me or one of my partners the phone.

      You only get paid if the deal closes.

      If the customer "refunds" within 6o Days, you get your money taken away.

      You will have to pay $35 per month to the office building for your desk and your phone.


      If anyone is in New Jersey or New York (or want to move to tri-state area), YOU ARE HIRED...No questions asked (drop outs, felons, whatever).
      Are you kidding???

      Depending on the company, their products, their average close rates & refund rates - this would be an AWSOME job, and I would certainly take it!!!

      I've worked as a sales person - and most of what you said above is true anyway, but the difference being its you that has to close the deal.

      If you're a sales person, and you sell something - and they refund for any reason - you lose your commission. This happens in all businesses, that I'm aware of, companies can't afford to pay commission on cancelled sales.

      If you're a sales person, you have very little control of the products that the company you work for is putting out there, you usually have little control when it comes to aftersales, you have little or no control on pricing, so there's not a great amount of difference.

      Obviously you would hope that as a sales person you get a basic wage & a better commission - but also as a sales person you have to see the sale all the way through to the close, it's a lot more hard work.

      Seriously - no joke, I think the scenario you have just described, would be a brilliant one, as long as refund rates are low & close rates are high.

      $35 per month for the office - great, I'll pay $50 per month if you throw in a parking space!

      When do I start??

      Cheers

      Kev
      Signature
      SEO Kev
      Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553491].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553512].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author KevL
          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

          Where are you located? I can have you starting Monday if you can get to NYC.

          And I'm DEAD serious.

          If you want to take 100% of the risk for half the profits, YOU ARE HIRED!

          Bring your friends!
          Manchester UK - so the commute is a bit to much I'm afraid....

          If you could show stats (like the ones I can look at when thinking about promoting a product as an affiliate) and they look good - and all the person has to do is introduce, then I personally do think that is a MEGA business model, and that you should put an ad out.

          And I'm DEAD serious, also....

          There is a job which isn't a million miles away from what you've described, which is appointment setting. Generally appointment setters are on a very low basic wage, or commission only, and they simply make appointments for the sales guys. If the sales person closes the sale - they earn a commission.

          You can apply all your arguments that you have for affiliate marketing, to this, especially to the commission only ones. Yet it's been around for years, people do it. In fact - I used to do it, it was one of my first sales jobs in my late teens - and I earned more money in this job than in any of the other sales jobs at that time, because I wasn't experienced enough to sell, but I was good at arranging appointments for the people who are good at selling.

          So if you have a good close rate, and a low refund rate, and you're giving people an opportunity to make money by simply getting the ear & then passing the call & moving on to make the next call - I think you're onto a winner.

          Thanks

          Kev
          Signature
          SEO Kev
          Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553658].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        I've had a night to sleep on this thread and do a lot of thinking.

        First off, I want to apologize to you Danny for any disparaging remarks
        that I made. I don't expect you to accept my apology, but I'm putting it
        out there.

        After re-reading a lot of your arguments, I admit that I agree with most of
        what you're saying. I am a product creator myself and do so for a reason.

        Here is where my problem lies.

        You say Affiliate Marketing is not a business.

        Okay, it's not a business.

        So what? Not everybody wants to run a business. If everybody in this
        world ran a business, we business owners would be SOL.

        Nobody to pump gas in our cars
        Nobody to wait on us at restaurants

        And no affiliates to promote our products...leaving us to do all the work.

        We need workers. I think we can agree on that much. At least I hope so.

        Last time I looked, workers CAN actually work their whole life and make a
        good living. They don't suddenly wake up one day broke because their
        non business model wasn't sustainable.

        My wife is a school teacher. Has been for over 30 years. She makes over
        100K a year and when she retires she'll be making enough to support us
        both between her pension and tax shelter.

        Now I realize affiliate marketing is different because they only get paid
        when they make a sale that isn't refunded.

        But you make it sound like this is not possible to do long term, regardless
        of whether or not you want to call it a business. I don't care. Fine, it's a
        job.

        But it's certainly a job that can be done long term and make long term
        money from.

        In addition to creating my own products, I do affiliate marketing...7 plus
        years running.

        Are you saying that one day I will wake up and stop making money from
        selling affiliate products?

        That is the ONLY thing about your argument that I simply can't buy,
        even if I concede that it's not a business.

        Doesn't matter that it's not a business (though the IRS would disagree)

        I'm willing to be every dime in my bank account that I can continue to
        do affiliate marketing until they day I decide to retire and make money
        from it.

        I haven't stopped yet. So why should I believe one day the well will run
        dry?

        I guess I don't understand what you mean by "not sustainable"

        If I keep working my tail off (at that job, not business, okay?) I can make
        money for as long as I keep working my tail off.

        Prove to me I can't.

        So far, you haven't.

        But everything else I agree with. Product creators, business owners, have
        it over affiliates, which is why I became a product creator myself.

        But I still sell a boat load of affiliate products and will continue to do so
        as long as I work that job.

        Again, prove to me I can't.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553541].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553615].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author rushindo
            Please!

            Can everyone just please agree to disagree? This debate is causing a lot of people to be upset. Call me soft but I hate seeing people upset and angry here - no matter the cause.

            There is NEVER going to be a general consensus in this thread so just AGREE TO DISAGREE ALREADY!

            Everyone made very good points. Danny I don't understand why you will not stop unless everyone agrees with you. It's NEVER going to happen (no matter how nice you actually are or how nice you are trying to be). I agree with some of your points and I disagree with others.

            Some people agree. Fine.

            Some people disagree. Fine.

            Can we just move on please?

            P.S. I got a solution. Let's turn this thread into a sequel of the old movie called the "Never Ending Story" because it seems it will never end. Product creators, you can sell it. Affiliates, you can promote it. People who believe in both, sell it and promote related products on the backend. LOL J/K
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553638].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553717].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author rushindo
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                It's not a discussion about agreeing or disagreeing. Its a discussion about a fundamental misunderstanding about how business works.

                If I said 2+2=4 and someone else said 2+2=5 would they be disagreeing with my opinion...or just flat out wrong?

                I'd go with the later.
                I hate to "disagree" but this discussion IS about people who agree or disagree with whether or not affiliate marketing is a sustainable business model, hence all the "I agree" statements and "I disagree" statements.

                Your example with math is based on a fact. The topic of this thread is not based on fact, but is based on one's opinion.

                Your reference above to affiliate marketing as a sustainable business model being "flat out wrong" as you describe it, is the cause of this debate because you state your opinion as a fact, which in reality, is an opinion.

                If there is at least one person on earth "sustaining" their affiliate marketing business, then your stand is an opinion, not a fact. There are many people with sustainable affiliate businesses because they have an audience that is not going anywhere.

                See, you got me into the debate and I was trying to cool it down. Oh well.

                Have fun proving that everyone "has it all wrong." This conversation would be much better if you were trying to prove why product creation is "better" as opposed to "the right way."
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553771].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Okay Danny, I've read your reply and essentially what you're saying is this.
                And I'll use myself as an example since you were directly replying to my
                situation.

                You're saying that eventually (you can't give a specific date) refunds on my
                affiliates sales will increase 1,000% and the bottom is going to fall out. Your
                exact words were, "The day is coming."

                Okay, so that means the day isn't here yet.

                So here's my question Danny, and I doubt you can answer it unless you
                have a crystal ball. And as far as I know, one hasn't been created yet.

                "When is that day coming?"

                Is it in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, when?

                I'm 52 years old now Danny. I've been successfully doing affiliate since I
                was 45. That's over 7 years. This November will make it 8 years.

                At what age will I be grateful that I do sell my own products and didn't
                just rely on affiliate marketing because suddenly that model will be dead?

                That is what you are saying, that it will be dead...completely. Because if
                I can't keep making money at it, with all my knowledge, then nobody can.

                So when Danny? When is that day coming?

                The truth is, you don't know. You can't possibly know. So your statement
                that this is a "fact" is not accurate. It's you opinion. And you may very
                well be right, that one day...every affiliate marketer on this planet will
                stop making money.

                Based on my 7 plus years of experience, I'd say it's a safe bet that you
                are wrong.

                But guess what? If we both live long enough, we'll eventually find out.

                Won't we.

                I'm looking forward to that day.

                No hard feelings. Have a nice day.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553775].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553851].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                    I can't tell you when it will happen, but it WILL eventually happen.

                    Remember my roulette example.

                    You may win 5 times in a row, maybe 10 times in a row...but if you don't walk away, EVENTUALLY your house of cards will blow down.
                    Fair enough Danny. I'll be waiting.

                    In the meantime, in addition to my product creation business I will continue
                    to sell affiliate products. (OH by the way, I personally look over and review
                    each one I sell to make sure it is top notch. I'm not an idiot you know.)

                    This should be interesting if nothing else.

                    And if my affiliate model should one day fall apart, I will personally treat
                    you to dinner at the finest restaurant in New Jersey...your choice.

                    I want nothing in return if I'm still making money up until the day I retire.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553878].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author drmani
                  A 'business' generates profit by serving a client base.

                  'Affiliate marketing' as a business would fit this definition.

                  Sustainability over the long term will depend upon:

                  * whether you can attract enough clients
                  * deliver value enough to retain them
                  * profit from this transaction

                  A serious affiliate marketer doesn't sell only 'attention'
                  but also builds trust with his/her audience of clients - and
                  that trust translates into repeat sales (hence, sustainability).

                  Jay Abraham is fond of saying: "If you have one product, you
                  don't have a business... you have a PROMOTION!"

                  Think about it, and you'll see far more 'businesses' are actually
                  not... while many 'affiliate marketers' are closer to running a
                  REAL business.

                  Try and see if you can find something where Jay talks about being
                  in the 'toll gate position' - THAT'S the key. When you own the
                  RELATIONSHIP with your prospect, it matters less whether the product
                  or service you're selling is your own... or someone else's!

                  All success
                  Dr.Mani
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554485].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            People are not Googling "make money online" to find out how to get a JOB. They go to monster for that. They are looking for BUSINESSES.
            They may think they're looking for a business, but in reality the majority are not. They're looking for a quick and easy buck. A few are even willing to work, but they're not really looking to build/buy a business either.

            So in keeping with selling people what they want, the term business is applied and simple concepts are explained with stories that portray simple to mean the same as easy and effortless. Because that's what most people want to hear.

            Really who doesn't want to be like the guy or gal that is their boss. You know the one who got to where they are out of shear luck and now they don't really do anything besides being "the boss" and getting rich off the efforts of those who do the real work. After all owning a business is a walk in the park.
            Signature
            "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
            ~ Zig Ziglar
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553748].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553765].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                I also think that they are trying to turn it into a full time business. They want the instant income but they want that to last forever.
                I don't doubt that either. What I mean when I say they don't really want a business is that most people don't really understand what it takes to build and/or operate a successful business. Nor do they want to learn. They have a perception of what constitutes a business, and a person's perception is their reality.

                So they try to build a sustainable business based on their perception and their comfort level. And when they fail, they further convince themselves that successful business owners are merely a product of luck.
                Signature
                "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                ~ Zig Ziglar
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553778].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            If people were "selling" affiliate marketing courses as JOBS, just like gas pumpers and waiters, I'd have no problem with it. No one would buy any of it, but I'd be fine with it..
            if people were paid in affilaite marketing like they do in a job i would agree with that but last ime i looked an affiliate marketer is not paid regardless of outcome by any vendor and as such would place affiliate marketing as a business.

            yep put me on the dummy pile as well dude i am sure i am wrong in your eyes
            Signature

            .

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553768].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553802].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                No, I agree with you 100%..
                well i am confused now, first you say it is a job now a business ? I am sure those who need to know will work it out, cheers moving forward champ.
                Signature

                .

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553847].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553860].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                    Another "reader".
                    .
                    bud it's clear you better than me, your people skills alone are unbelievable, love your style, best of luck moving forward. ( i hope i move past reading soon and reach your skill set level, i think most would aspire to be like you / you seem like such an important person an all)
                    Signature

                    .

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553894].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

                      bud it's clear you better than me, your people skills alone are unbelievable, love your style, best of luck moving forward. ( i hope i move past reading soon and reach your skill set level, i think most would aspire to be like you / you seem like such an important person an all)

                      Was this sarcasm?

                      My brain is so fried from this discussion that it's hard to tell.

                      Either way, I loved this post. I think it deserves a thank you.

                      Now...where is that button?
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553904].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            Because the internet isn't what it used to be. Watch your refund rate over the next 2 years. It will (at a minimum) increase by 1,000 %. Yes, 1,000%.
            How come no one is following up on this point?

            This is an awfully wild prediction. And even if it were true, doesn't that make the vendor more vulnerable than the affiliate?

            After all, if the public trashes the reputation of a vendor, their product is finished, and so is the business (assuming the vendor has one main product it depends on).

            But an affiliate can just start promoting some other product and be fine (assuming the affiliate is promoting more than one vendor.)

            The affiliate can move more nimbly than the vendor, no?

            Anyway, you seriously think the affiliate model will totally collapse because of an avalanche of refund requests in each of the tens of thousands of products that exist?

            What are you basing that on? I'm curious.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2555060].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author KevL
              Originally Posted by BillyBee View Post

              How come no one is following up on this point?

              This is an awfully wild prediction. And even if it were true, doesn't that make the vendor more vulnerable than the affiliate?

              After all, if the public trashes the reputation of a vendor, their product is finished, and so is the business (assuming the vendor has one main product it depends on).

              But an affiliate can just start promoting some other product and be fine (assuming the affiliate is promoting more than one vendor.)

              The affiliate can move more nimbly than the vendor, no?

              Anyway, you seriously think the affiliate model will totally collapse because of an avalanche of refund requests in each of the tens of thousands of products that exist?

              What are you basing that on? I'm curious.
              Yes, very wild - and based on nothing. He doesn't need to base it on anything, just look at the way he talks, it's clear he's the god of internet marketing. What he says is not opinion, he has no opinion, only fact - everything he says is 100% factual, and right. He has spoken, so you just have to agree. He's already said many times that he is right, and something about 2+2=4 (which I wasn't aware of either until the wise one spoke).

              OK I'm joking, partly....

              I don't get this either, surely the likes of clickbank & paypal will not allow these levels of refund requests. For refund requests to rise by this degree it would involve individuals making multiple refund requests - and this is clearly abusing the ability to refund, I can't see clickbank or paypal allowing it to happen. Unless he's saying certain vendors will suddenly start getting massive refund rates, in which case they won't be vendors for long anyway.

              If he's saying that certain vendors have been getting away with selling absolute crap thanks to having huge numbers of affiliates, and people have been putting up with it but they won't do in the future - then IF this is what he's saying, then yes I can possibly agree with that much. I can't see it being quite as he makes it out, but I have seen some awful products being sold, and I do think certain people have been getting away with a lot - in terms of the claims made in sales copy & the product just no where delivering on these claims - and yet refund rates still appear to be small. I wouldn't be surprised if this changes & refund rates increase when it comes to products which don't live up to expectations - but still, I can't see why there would be suddenly the kind of huge increase he talks about.

              But again this comes down to the fact that affilaites have the ability to choose to market good products, and to stop marketing anything that is getting poor reviews or high refund numbers.
              Signature
              SEO Kev
              Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2555287].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by BillyBee View Post

              Anyway, you seriously think the affiliate model will totally collapse because of an avalanche of refund requests in each of the tens of thousands of products that exist?

              What are you basing that on? I'm curious.
              I didn't take Danny's comments as a prediction that the affiliate model will totally collapse. Especially given the fact that he stated earlier that he relies 100% on affiliate traffic himself.

              I took what he said to mean that the chances of damaging your reputation with your audience by acting as an affiliate (who has no control over product pricing, product quality, or post sale service) are going to be far greater from this point forward.

              No matter how diligent you are in selecting your offers, sh*t happens. Only now, news of it travels much faster and farther.

              As the vendor, you have control over price, quality, & service so if sh*t happens, it's your fault. As the affiliate, if sh*t happens it's out of your hands. But your reputation (and your potential income derived from that promotion) is still at stake since you made the recommendation.

              I'm sure I've left out a few points but that's the general impression I got from his comments.
              Signature
              "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
              ~ Zig Ziglar
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2556040].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    (Quick note - this is all simply based on my experience, research and observations. I've had a major shift in my business thinking and philosophy the last few months. Much of this discussion covers subjects that are very fresh in my consciousness and I'm very grateful to hear as many view points and insights as possible.)

    Hi Alexa, to clarify some of my points...

    In regards to my first statement, what I meant was the ability to grow and sustain revenue as an affiliate gets exponentially more difficult as your revenue increases and your businesses grows. You start to hit walls and plateaus. Now this will happen to a product owner as well, however the ability to get past these walls will be easier for the vendor. A product owner can take multiple actions on multiple levels within the sales process and overall marketing strategy that an affiliate simply cannot due to a lack of control.

    For example the vendor can alter pricing, create or improve the backend process, improve conversions (in multiple ways such as on the sales page, during order process, follow emails, etc.) You simply have more points of potential leverage and improvement as product vendor.


    In regards to my point about having more data to work with as a vendor versus an affiliate. This kind of goes back to what I wrote above...yes as an affiliate you have your own set of data to work with. The problem is, as an affiliate you can only use and leverage the data you have so far since you have no direct control of the sales process or product. The improvements you can make to increase sales and revenues are limited by your ability to presell and your ability scale traffic.

    You mentioned you know people who make 6 figures as an affiliate. I know people who fall into that category as well. But those income levels as well as the potential lower 7 figure income levels fall within what seems to be the upper wall for most super affiliates. I'm sure some can move beyond that but the problem in my eyes will be the sustain ability of those upper tier numbers over the long haul.


    In regards to exit strategy, I never said an affiliate site or model cannot have an exit strategy. But odds are an authority site built around a brand along with a product or product line is going to sell for significantly more than just an authority site an email list.
    Signature

    ****************************************
    Spy & Track Winning Facebook Ads

    Spy & Track
    Winning Google Content Network Ads
    Spy & Track Winning Bing & Google PPC Search Ads
    â„¢ACP - Click Here For Details
    ****************************************

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550701].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Million
    A few days ago, I got into a bit of a row with another Warrior, who was dead set on "proving" that being an affiliate was an unsustainable business model. I disagreed with him then, and I still do...sort of. Much of the heat from the discussion was generated by me allowing his cocky, arrogant insistence on being right, his condescending attitude toward anyone who disagreed with him, and his insistence that repeating what he'd posted earlier constituted proof of his points get under my skin.

    After some time to let his actual points sink in and marinate without having the pot stirred, he's partly right.

    Affiliate marketing as many practice it is not a long term business model, and was never intended to be.

    Take "Bum Marketing" for example...

    This money-maker involves writing and distributing articles and generating clicks to sales pages using the "Bum's" affiliate links. It's a one-shot deal. If the click-through buys, the Bum gets a commission and the vendor gets a new customer. The Bum is back at square one. And by direct linking to the vendor's sales page, Bum is at the mercy of the vendor - if that page or product disappears, so does any value to Bum. His links are worthless.

    One of the bones of contention in my little row was the assertion that the affiliate had no real product of their own.

    That's where he's wrong.

    The professional affiliate does have a product to sell - attention. Not only that, a professional affiliate delivers that attention in a state of mind favorable to the vendor.

    That attention is not tied to a single product, either.

    Another bone of contention was that an affiliate had no control over product, price or service. True, up to a point.

    A truly professional affiliate will have a good idea if the product is good and many times if the service is good before directing any of that attention to the vendor. Also, the affiliate has indirect control over the price via product selection.

    When you boil it down to the essence, affiliate marketing is selling a product, not unlike any other business. Marketing firms have been accepted as real, sustainable businesses for generations.

    Lumping all affiliates together in one group makes about as much sense as lumping together a lion and a tabby cat. Yes, they are both felines, but they are not the same animal...
    Lol, that's like saying 'internet marketing' is a scam. What a chump.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550859].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author aandersen
    if your "job" is supposed to be similar to affiliate marketing the terms would be a bit different



    I can work for as many mortgage companies simulatiously as a want to

    I can work from any desk I want to, no need to pay your fees

    I can hire as many people as a want to and manage them however I like

    I have the option of letting your rep close the sale OR i can close the sale my self, and only send them to you sign the contract

    yes i have to buy my own leads

    yes i am responsible for refunds

    I am allowed to build relationships with your customers and to let the know that if they ever need another mortgage to come to me first, not you

    I can collect your costomers' contact information just incase I want try to sell them home owners insurance, a lawn care provider, a new kitchen, or anything else I think they might want to purchase

    and depending on what I sell, I may keep more of the money than you
    Signature

    signature goes here

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2550911].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Re-Butt-als...

    lol He said "butt".
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551012].message }}
  • You know, if folks is convinced that they has wings, you ain't never gonna convince em that they cain't fly! Nope, tain't never gonna happen!

    Now then, when them folks climbs up a mighty tall tree and jumps off, either they will fly or they won't! THEY is the ones what suffers the consequences.

    Now, for all you folks who KNOW you ain't got no wings, I am suggestin that you just stay right here on the ground and just keep doin what you been a doin all along!

    Good Lord... does it take a Stumpwoody scholar to figger this one out?
    Signature
    Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
    http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551312].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jhess56
      re aff marketing.
      and this is based on learning from my mistakes. promoting an aff offer vs your own product is truly worth it if/when you are collecting emails before sending them to the aff offer
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551321].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
      Originally Posted by Thaddaeus T. Hogg View Post

      You know, if folks is convinced that they has wings, you ain't never gonna convince em that they cain't fly! Nope, tain't never gonna happen!

      Now then, when them folks climbs up a mighty tall tree and jumps off, either they will fly or they won't! THEY is the ones what suffers the consequences.

      Now, for all you folks who KNOW you ain't got no wings, I am suggestin that you just stay right here on the ground and just keep doin what you been a doin all along!

      Good Lord... does it take a Stumpwoody scholar to figger this one out?
      Dern tootin'

      lol, sure would like to know who it is behind them tharr' posts. Its amazing how I am always compelled to alter my dialogue to coincide with that there holler talkin' stuff.

      Don't worry Danny, I know exactly what Mr. Hogg is saying, have a nice evening y'all.
      Signature
      Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

      Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551354].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Thomas is on this varmit like a coon dog on a deer.... uh when he's sposed to be chasin a coon...:rolleyes: They say a coon dog thats runs deer aint worth nothin, but I like deer better than coon personally, so I always go down to the coon dog store bout once a month to see If I cant get any broken ones... ever now n then sombody returns one cuz they say its catchin the wrong kinda critters, and thats all the better for me....uh, and the coons.





      Originally Posted by Thaddaeus T. Hogg View Post

      You know, if folks is convinced that they has wings, you ain't never gonna convince em that they cain't fly! Nope, tain't never gonna happen!

      Now then, when them folks climbs up a mighty tall tree and jumps off, either they will fly or they won't! THEY is the ones what suffers the consequences.

      Now, for all you folks who KNOW you ain't got no wings, I am suggestin that you just stay right here on the ground and just keep doin what you been a doin all along!

      Good Lord... does it take a Stumpwoody scholar to figger this one out?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552724].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author derrickp
    Danny,

    Welcome to the forum and while I don't agree with everything you are saying I see your points, kudos for also sticking up for what you feel is right.

    I see you also met the Warrior Forum cool kids they spend so much time here saying how successful they are and answering 3/4s of the thread here and for some reason they always gang up on anyone that dares disagree with them. While the rest of us are out focusing on ways to build a better business and making money.
    Signature

    Slime England

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551439].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by derrickp View Post

      Danny,

      Welcome to the forum and while I don't agree with everything you are saying I see your points, kudos for also sticking up for what you feel is right.

      I see you also met the Warrior Forum cool kids they spend so much time here saying how successful they are and answering 3/4s of the thread here and for some reason they always gang up on anyone that dares disagree with them. While the rest of us are out focusing on ways to build a better business and making money.
      You got me Derrick. I spend all day here and tell everyone I make a lot of money only to wait and gang up on people.

      Secretly, I want to be like you. Can we hug now?

      I am glad you stopped by to tell us your building a better business and making money. I am sorry you are not one of the cool kids.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551456].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author derrickp
        Thomas,

        You are the best!

        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        You got me Derrick. I spend all day here and tell everyone I make a lot of money only to wait and gang up on people.

        Secretly, I want to be like you. Can we hug now?

        I am glad you stopped by to tell us your building a better business and making money. I am sorry you are not one of the cool kids.
        Signature

        Slime England

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551634].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by derrickp View Post

          Thomas,

          You are the best!
          No, you are Derrick.

          Still waiting on that hug.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551648].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
      Originally Posted by derrickp View Post

      Danny,

      Welcome to the forum and while I don't agree with everything you are saying I see your points, kudos for also sticking up for what you feel is right.

      I see you also met the Warrior Forum cool kids they spend so much time here saying how successful they are and answering 3/4s of the thread here and for some reason they always gang up on anyone that dares disagree with them. While the rest of us our out focusing on ways to build a better business and making money.
      Boooooooooooooo! Sssssssssssss, Booooooooo!

      lol, I am not sure how you categorize Warriors but I usually put a ton of emphasis on how many "thanks" they have in relation to total number of posts and than translate that data into if they have a clue or not.

      -~-g'day

      Now than-

      I just realized I referred to Danny as the "OP" and I am wrong about that. The original poster was JohnMccabe and he had this to say right at the start of this thread:

      A few days ago, I got into a bit of a row with another Warrior, who was dead set on "proving" that being an affiliate was an unsustainable business model. I disagreed with him then, and I still do...sort of. Much of the heat from the discussion was generated by me allowing his cocky, arrogant insistence on being right, his condescending attitude toward anyone who disagreed with him, and his insistence that repeating what he'd posted earlier constituted proof of his points get under my skin.

      After some time to let his actual points sink in and marinate without having the pot stirred, he's partly right.
      Lets all just take a quick notice of what John said, blinded by arrogance and insistence on being right is not a tough thing to fall prey to. He intentionally started this thread by saying Danny was partially RIGHT. Yet here we are 3 pages later still going round and round, it is no use trying to say anything to someone who is incapable of hearing it unless it conforms to their strict definition.

      A broad sense of understanding is beyond some people and will always get them battered by many on this forum, at least as far as I have seen. Speaking in absolutes is a tough sell no matter where you go, but nothing beats a little humility and agreeing to disagree respectfully to have your point heard, which I have also seen evidence of being true of the "cool kids" as you have labeled them.
      Signature
      Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

      Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551488].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post


        Lets all just take a quick notice of what John said, blinded by arrogance and insistence on being right is not a tough thing to fall prey to.
        Honestly, I didn't really see Danny that way. I just saw that he was positive in his convictions.

        I don't think everyone has to agree. I do think there should be some value in this thread for people to chew on.

        Sam, your one of the cool kids.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551503].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551570].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

            It's not about my "convictions".

            Definition of a BUSINESS according to Google (I know, not a trusted source).
            "A business (also called a company, enterprise or firm) is a legally recognized organization designed to provide goods and/or services to consumers. ..."

            An affiliate has no PRODUCT or SERVICE.

            You are a War Room member. Go in there and click into "my ideas". Read thread titled "Product Creator Or Affiliate". After you are done, come back, admit what you should admit and we will move on to more important things.
            Lead generation is a service.

            Why do you need 10k affiliates then. When you start opening your mind and realize you're wrong you might actually learn something.

            haha I read Allen's report and agree with it which is why I have always been selling my own products. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

            Yet, again you have no clue.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551612].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Honestly, I didn't really see Danny that way. I just saw that he was positive in his convictions.

          I don't think everyone has to agree. I do think there should be some value in this thread for people to chew on.

          Sam, your one of the cool kids.
          lol, wow I am honored. Truly. Not shaving my head though to complete the look. hahahaha j/k

          No, I don't see Danny as being all that hopped up on his own brilliance either and obviously he has a firm grip on how to scale up his business and utilize more profitable ventures such as creating his own products.

          An undeniable truth though is, that scaling and the added revenue/time taken to produce/advertising expenses ratio which he is able to take advantage of is STILL heavily relying on affiliate marketing which in a way renders his argument to feel a bit off the mark, at least to me anyway. It seems kind of like bitching about the police but than expecting them to yank you out of your burning vehicle or any other ironic analogy you can think of where instead of bitching about it or putting it down you should at the very least recognize how significant and necessary it is. After which you become humbled by realizing nothing is perfect.

          It is not about being right or wrong but a thorough understanding of delivery and how it comes off to those reading it would be helpful.

          I also agree with him to a point but am ever thankful for affiliates and never intend on conveying to them there is no use in trying their hand at it. It is a viable income source but arguing like this over semantics between business model or not is slightly silly in my book. Many people might say the guy who built his business cleaning up dog droppings not long ago didn't have a business but, yes he did, quite a lucrative one too.

          Just like dogs will always be doing their business, products will always be needing affiliates so it is most definitely sustainable within the profit bracket the individual creates. The argument that the next profit bracket may not be easily achieved with strictly affiliate marketing I agree with but I do not feel that is a truth which will set anyone free as if nobody has a clue.

          There are risks and expenses in every single business out there. Affiliate advertising is one of the least expensive and least risky no matter how you look at it. Can be scaled up as far as the person in charge wants to pursue it but the further you go and the bigger you get the more those risks and pitfalls will come into play just like all other businesses. Same goes for creating your own products and picking up dog droppings in peoples backyards.

          BUT, everyone has every right to pursue whichever business they wish and do not need anyone to tell them not to because there is no future in it or they won't be able to sustain it, no telling what people will be able to do where you yourself fall short so best bet is to be a bit less all knowing and sure of yourself, especially around here.
          Signature
          Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

          Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551621].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

            lol, wow I am honored. Truly. Not shaving my head though to complete the look. hahahaha j/k
            Sissy.

            No, I don't see Danny as being all that hopped up on his own brilliance either and obviously he has a firm grip on how to scale up his business and utilize more profitable ventures such as creating his own products.
            I am not so sure about that. He may say he's making a lot of money but only he knows. I sure don't automatically believe anyone. Especially after some of his posts.

            I am always suspect when people start quoting me Kyosaki.


            An undeniable truth though is, that scaling and the added revenue/time taken to produce/advertising expenses ratio which he is able to take advantage of is STILL heavily relying on affiliate marketing which in a way renders his argument to feel a bit off the mark, at least to me anyway.
            You would think if he created a great product with great service then affiliates could create a long term business just sending him leads.

            My bad. According to Danny, affiliates don't supply a product or service which still makes me wonder why they get paid. :confused:
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551645].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
              Banned
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551710].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                I never told anyone how much money I made. Are we putting words in my mouth again?
                Nope, you stated you were making 400k in cpa. Memory must be bad. I understand since your brain must hold all this business knowledge and you don't have room to remember what you said previously.


                Me too. He's a miserable failure.
                His stuff is mainly motivational. I even played his cashflow game. Most of the people that quote me his quadrants ended up being in mlm or just starting out in business. lol


                They don't. They supply traffic. I get that traffic completely for FREE and only have to pay if the visitor BUYS and doesn't REFUND!

                The affiliate gets paid a commission when the sale is made. No other fees are paid.

                Sweet deal for me and the rest of the vendors.
                They supply leads. Targeted leads if they are doing their job right. What do you think traffic is Einstein?

                Yep, they are commission based which is still a viable payment structure as far as I am aware.

                Yep, it is a sweet deal for product creators and one of the reason people should have their own products.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551732].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551748].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                    And I also said that the CPA side of my business was PART of my business. I never told anyone how much I make.
                    I never stated anything about your cpa business. You are the one that claimed to make 400k. You later stated you didn't make any type of remarks towards how much you made so I pointed you to that post.

                    Please keep up.


                    No, wait. He's a failure. Now that "Tom Smith" from "Millions In Minutes" on clickbank, theres a genius.
                    You wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth? Please show me where I said Kyosaki was a failure.

                    Actually let's talk about risk. Remember when Kyosaki became homeless after losing his first business?



                    They don't supply "leads" or "traffic". They supply SALES! Closed deals.
                    First you said they supplied traffic and now you are saying they supply sales.

                    Actually, your job is to convert those leads into sales. You might want to go back and reread Allen's product versus affiliate report.

                    Affiliates may try and help by preselling.

                    Affiliates can find other product owners with higher converting sales processes (and also high products and customers support) instead of doing all the work.

                    I am starting to think you don't have a real business if you want the affiliates to do all the work.

                    You continue to keep changing what you mean. I am starting to think you don't know what your talking about.


                    You cannot supply "leads" and get paid on a commission structure. Either you are getting paid per lead (CPA), Per SALE (affiliates), or BOTH.
                    A sale is an action. Submitting an email is an action. Signing up for a free trial is an action.

                    CPA = Cost Per Action

                    It is a sweet deal for the Vendors.
                    Yes it is but nothing to do with this debate.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551776].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                      Banned
                      [DELETED]
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551813].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                        Again, I said two things and you are Olbermanning one part of it. I said that PART OF MY BUSINESS is CPA promotions. I said that I make (last year) 400K (actually it was just above 396K) from that PART OF MY BUSINESS.



                        I never told anyone who much I make.

                        Sorry, I forgot you like to play word games.


                        Yes, because he realized that he was following the wrong plan. Take a note.
                        haha No...

                        He didn't patent his velcro wallet and was undercut by overseas producers. He lost his business because he didn't protect it.



                        I only PAY for sales. By default, they send traffic to my site but the amount of traffic is meaningless.

                        If they send 50,000 visitors and make 10 sales and someone else sends 11 visitors and makes 10 sales, I pay the same amount.
                        Those visitors are leads.

                        Do you have a sales letter? Do they just send their leads to a buy now button?

                        My job is to make sure my company is running smoothly when I'm around. When I'm not around, that's someone else's job.
                        OK, some more word games. Next time I will say your company's job is convert leads into sales.

                        When it comes to affiliates, my only responsibility (and I dont even do this) is to pay the affiliate for sales generated through their link.
                        I thought your duty was making sure the company runs smoothly?


                        The affiliate is still doing all the work regardless of how it converts.
                        I find it hard to believe you have 10k affiliates if your offer doesn't convert well. Most of the work is upfront for the product seller. It is a lot of work at first but it seems your company doesn't really put in effort of insuring it is converting well before your affiliates send traffic.

                        Not a good thing, imo.


                        Affiliates are free to go whenever they want. Usually, in the beginning, the sales are generated through mailings that are based on reciprocating for other launches/favors. The small time, affiliates come into play later on.
                        That is good because you made it sound like they could only promote one product and didn't have any control over anything.


                        Actually quite the opposite. I DO have a real business and because of that, the affiliates do all the work.
                        I didn't realize your affiliates created the sales pages, sales funnels and products.


                        I'm not changing anything. I have a feeling you are realizing that you are dead wrong and you are trying to justify your JOB.
                        Oh, your dropping some major knowledge on me tonight. Didn't you just say your job was to make sure the company was running smoothly. So we both have jobs.


                        The affiliates provide traffic by default, but that is meaningless. The amount of traffic means nothing to me. The only thing I care about is the amount of sales they generate because that is all I am paying for.
                        I thought they provided sales and not traffic?

                        Someone must be buying if your making sales. We normally call them leads before they purchase but that must not be in any of Kyosaki's books.


                        Email submits are actions. Free trials are actions. Sales are actions that require a payment and could be returned.

                        If someone passes you a free sticker at the mall, you'd look kind of silly if you went up to them and demanded your money back.
                        Free trials normally require credit cards. Email submits normally scrub a lot and that means less payment.

                        If the companies don't convert the trials or emails submits to sales they have been known not to pay.

                        Again, look at the wicked fire forum to see this for yourself.


                        Of course it does.

                        Remember...don't read the war room my ideas section.
                        I think you better reread some of those ideas. I know for a fact Allen stated to make sure your offer converted in order to get affiliates. You say your company doesn't worry about it.

                        Don't be sad that your wrong. Be happy your learning.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551860].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
                        Why is there so much emotion in this argument?

                        I feel like I'm listening to a couple of guys argue in a car show parking lot which engine is better, a 5.7-liter V8 Hemi or Vortec 6.2L V8.

                        You know what makes a sustainable business? YOU.
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551889].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by BillyBee View Post

                          Why is there so much emotion in this argument?

                          I feel like I'm listening to a couple of guys argue in a car show parking lot which engine is better, a 5.7-liter V8 Hemi or Vortec 6.2L V8.

                          You know what makes a sustainable business? YOU.
                          Billy, sorry but I am not emotional at all.

                          Danny will tell you that a business does not revolve around you. If it does it isn't a real business. The business should be able to function without you.

                          You don't have to listen in if it bothers you.

                          I do think that this thread outlived its purpose and it is time for me to get some sleep.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551893].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                            Banned
                            [DELETED]
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551910].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                              If you spent years building a house and then find out that the entire thing was going to fall down the minute you stepped into it, it's easy to get emotional.

                              The truth hurts sometimes but like I said, it will set you free!

                              As long as the business model is a proven one, you are right.
                              Did you somehow miss the several times that Thomas stated to you that he does not do affiliate marketing? Clearly, there must be another reason for him to disagree with you.

                              Out of curiosity, when you do affiliate marketing, isn't it reported on your tax form as "self-employment income"? Perhaps you should try to convince the IRS that it doesn't constitute a business.

                              Tina
                              Signature
                              Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
                              Fast & Easy Content Creation
                              ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551939].message }}
                              • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                Banned
                                [DELETED]
                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551956].message }}
                                • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                                  What would my motivation be? Maybe it's simply to tell the truth?
                                  I fully believe that is your motivation. I believe that it is the truth as you see it.

                                  I was just pointing out that Thomas is not an affiliate so this "truth" will not be setting him free, as you keep saying.

                                  I'm not an affiliate marketer, either, yet I still don't agree with you. Big deal. If everyone agreed all the time, the world would be a terribly boring place, I should think.

                                  My reference to "when you do affiliate marketing" was not in specific reference to you, by the way. Perhaps I should have said "when a person does affiliate marketing" but I thought the idea was clear since you've stated over and over that you do not.

                                  Tina
                                  Signature
                                  Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
                                  Fast & Easy Content Creation
                                  ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551985].message }}
                                  • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                    Banned
                                    [DELETED]
                                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551997].message }}
                                    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                      Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post


                                      I also don't believe that it is the truth "as I see it".

                                      In order to have a business you MUST have 3 things.

                                      Product/Service
                                      Price
                                      After the sale Service.

                                      An affiliate has NONE of those.
                                      For the sake of argument, let's look back at a comment made by Michael Hiles.

                                      To the affiliate, the vendor is the CUSTOMER. In order to have a customer, you have to have a product/service don't you? Wouldn't the traffic you control be your product/service? You're selling it on a commission basis. So yes, as you say...affiliates get paid for sales.

                                      But can't affiliates control the price they get for that traffic by promoting offers that represent the highest visitor value?

                                      As for after the sale service...the customer (vendor) doesn't pay for your product/service (traffic) until after it has made them a profit. That kind of eliminates the need for after the sale service doesn't it?

                                      Again, just playing a little bit of devil's advocate. I agree with your position that being a product owner/vendor is preferred over acting as an affiliate. Regardless, I'd be interested in and open to your rebuttal regarding my comments above.
                                      Signature
                                      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                                      ~ Zig Ziglar
                                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552036].message }}
                                      • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                        Banned
                                        [DELETED]
                                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552073].message }}
                                        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                          The model as is will never work. With a little tweeking, it could actually work GREAT! Actually, one simple change and the numbers would work. If the affiliate did not have to pay back refunds, it would be sustainable. They would be able to accurately estimate profits and make a judgement on future investments based on that.
                                          Well, what's to stop you or I or anyone else as the vendor from not making affiliates pay back refunds (contingent on a specified maximum refund rate and minimum sales volume, etc.)?

                                          I'll check back after I get some sleep. Interesting conversation though.
                                          Signature
                                          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                                          ~ Zig Ziglar
                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552103].message }}
                                        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                          Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                          That is 100% correct. The vendor is the customer. Actually, in models like you are talking about, the SELLER is usually the "client" regardless. Real estate, mortgages, cars, any kind of sales job...the "affiliate" (salesperson) always represents the seller.

                                          The traffic is your service and if they were getting paid for traffic that would work out just fine.



                                          They are not getting a price for traffic. They are getting a price for the sale.



                                          That profit doesn't stick until 60 days after the sale is made. The VENDOR (your client) has no risk at all. You however (the provider) is still out there risking your money based on "profits" that were not yet made and really can't even be estimated.

                                          After the sale service can never be eliminated unless you are selling consumables and even there you still have somewhat of a need for it. If someone eats a can of tuna, they aren't going to call you 3 weeks later to ask how to open the can.

                                          The question about service is who controls it. The quality of service means MUCH more to you (the affiliate) than it does the vendor. Again, you (affiliate) is taking all the risk.



                                          The affiliate thing is actually a pretty complicated issue. There isn't anyone really working on making the model sustainable....because really who would want too? The vendors couldn't care less. They don't want the model to be sustainable. If it was, there goes repeat business.

                                          The model as is will never work. With a little tweeking, it could actually work GREAT! Actually, one simple change and the numbers would work. If the affiliate did not have to pay back refunds, it would be sustainable. They would be able to accurately estimate profits and make a judgement on future investments based on that.

                                          With the refund deal in play, the investment in the traffic makes ZERO business sense on the affiliate side. On the Vendor side, it's a no brainer.

                                          The thing that amazes me the most is that these "Super Guru" guys were actually able to convince people that it makes sense. Not only that, they did such a good job at convincing, you now have the "convinced" convincing new people.
                                          Grand slam home run.

                                          Out of the park.

                                          It's a zero sum game for the vendor. Affiliates shoulder 100% of the cost of generating raw traffic, which hits the vendor's website and may or may not buy.

                                          The purchase may or may not stick, and be refundable.

                                          The cost of generating the traffic is constant... time, money, etc... is not on a pay-for-performance basis from the affiliate side. Once spent, that's it... it's gone.

                                          The vendor doesn't care though. They only pay based on the deal sticking. But even if the deal refunds - guess who is still in the vendor's database as a warm prospect?

                                          The real stickler for affiliates is that now the customer is in the vendor's database, there's no real way to know whether or not the customer bought anything else in the future. The vendor isn't going to pay future commissions based on the lifetime value of the customer.

                                          The single most expensive sale for any business is the first one - because the cost of marketing and sales is the highest. The affiliate shoulders the lion's share of cost of goods sold - and the vendor gets the benefit of not having to pay for marketing research. They pay on closed sales - leaving the affiliate to experiment to figure out what works the best.

                                          But our dear affiliates do not get the benefit of the amortized cost of sales across the lifetime value of the customer - their entire world is based on a single transaction.

                                          In fact, this is where the MLM model is actually superior to affiliate marketing because an MLM agent actually continues being paid for the lifetime of a customer.

                                          That little hand grenade rolled across the floor ought to stir up some folks.

                                          But it's true.

                                          Every major corporation understands how much it can spend in time, effort, and money in creating a new customer because it understands how much that customer spends across the entire lifetime of the relationship. The company can be far more competitive in its marketing because it can create "loss leader" strategies that even lose money on the first several transactions because they understand their financial model and how they profit on the back end.

                                          Affiliates get none of this. They do all the heavy lifting, make all the investment, and get paid (if they're lucky) on the front-end shot. There's no competitive positioning. There's no price strategy. There's no segmentation or differentiation. They also can't amortize their costs of sales across multiple deals. They only get the most expensive sale - the first one.

                                          Vendors know they can create an army of starry-eyed people who stay focused on the tricks and techniques to game a piece of the entire system here and there.

                                          As an "offline marketing consultant" (lolz) I work on the vendor side, so I know exactly what the numbers look like and the conversations that take place when evaluating things like CPA networks, etc...

                                          It doesn't mean that affiliates can't make money. Many obviously are. But the extreme few who excel at it are in the minority. I also see the numbers there. It's a tiny percentage.

                                          But an entire industry has built up around the "drive by shooting marketing" that I've described on WF in the past. It's not even marketing at the affiliate level... it's gaming the system to try to refer sales. That's why I have even laughed my head off at the nomenclature used.

                                          And yes, then you have the entire tier of "guru" folks who create revenue streams by creating info products around teaching people how to game the systems here or there. They're business model is actually more sustainable than the actual affiliate model itself - so long as there is a steady stream of dreamers who want to play business.

                                          It's a convoluted mud hole quagmire, but indeed, the real winners are the vendors and the "goo roos", who both exploit the affiliates.

                                          The gurus worth listening to are the ones who teach how to create and launch your own product.
                                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552472].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                            Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                            Why would we? The model is set up and people are (obviously) buying into it. Making the affiliate into a viable business model would HURT our businesses tremendously.
                                            Why would we?

                                            This
                                            vvvvvvvvvvvv

                                            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


                                            The real stickler for affiliates is that now the customer is in the vendor's database, there's no real way to know whether or not the customer bought anything else in the future. The vendor isn't going to pay future commissions based on the lifetime value of the customer.

                                            The single most expensive sale for any business is the first one - because the cost of marketing and sales is the highest. The affiliate shoulders the lion's share of cost of goods sold - and the vendor gets the benefit of not having to pay for marketing research. They pay on closed sales - leaving the affiliate to experiment to figure out what works the best.

                                            But our dear affiliates do not get the benefit of the amortized cost of sales across the lifetime value of the customer - their entire world is based on a single transaction.

                                            In fact, this is where the MLM model is actually superior to affiliate marketing because an MLM agent actually continues being paid for the lifetime of a customer.

                                            That little hand grenade rolled across the floor ought to stir up some folks.

                                            But it's true.

                                            Every major corporation understands how much it can spend in time, effort, and money in creating a new customer because it understands how much that customer spends across the entire lifetime of the relationship. The company can be far more competitive in its marketing because it can create "loss leader" strategies that even lose money on the first several transactions because they understand their financial model and how they profit on the back end.

                                            Affiliates get none of this. They do all the heavy lifting, make all the investment, and get paid (if they're lucky) on the front-end shot. There's no competitive positioning. There's no price strategy. There's no segmentation or differentiation. They also can't amortize their costs of sales across multiple deals. They only get the most expensive sale - the first one.
                                            To attract, motivate, & keep more active, productive affiliates. If it increases the number of customers acquired, why not? I'm not understanding why making the affiliate marketing model more viable/sustainable would hurt our businesses.
                                            Signature
                                            "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                                            ~ Zig Ziglar
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553191].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                              Banned
                                              [DELETED]
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553452].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                                Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                                I dont think it would hurt us to the point of putting us OOB. But it will hurt bottom line to an extent. You are right though, it will increase the number of affiliates required.

                                                The problem is with fraudulent sales. You will have to watch your stats 24/7.

                                                You could also set it up kind of like a CPA network and have a TOS that says "If we deem any sales fraudulent, you don't get paid."

                                                That's why I mentioned a maximum allowable refund rate and a minimum sales volume before an affiliate qualifies for the program.

                                                If an affiliate doesn't refer x # of sales monthly, you don't qualify. And even if an affiliate does qualify, there is a maximum allowable refund rate. Any refunds beyond that rate and the affiliate has to give back commissions for just those sales.

                                                And you're right, it would require additional resources to be allocated to tracking. But if it increases the number of new customers acquired and the business has a good handle on lifetime customer value, the extra tracking resources would be justified.

                                                Of course, that assumes that the program would lead to affiliates making additional sales. Otherwise, you're just adding to your customer acquisition cost by eating the refunds.
                                                Signature
                                                "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                                                ~ Zig Ziglar
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553534].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                                            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                            Grand slam home run.

                                            Out of the park.


                                            And yes, then you have the entire tier of "guru" folks who create revenue streams by creating info products around teaching people how to game the systems here or there. They're business model is actually more sustainable than the actual affiliate model itself - so long as there is a steady stream of dreamers who want to play business.

                                            It's a convoluted mud hole quagmire, but indeed, the real winners are the vendors and the "goo roos", who both exploit the affiliates.

                                            The gurus worth listening to are the ones who teach how to create and launch your own product.
                                            Giggity giggity. You have now ripped a hole in the space time continuum which soon all of the internet marketing industry will be sucked into, rendering all of our efforts completely useless. We will all be floating around trying to charge people for floating within our personal space while others yell out how they charge less for their space which has added bonuses. Just had to go and do that didn't you, at least everybody could just dismiss Danny as a know it all loon. lmao j/k
                                            Signature
                                            Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

                                            Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553456].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                              Banned
                                              [DELETED]
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553486].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author dannyadams
                                                Banned
                                                [DELETED]
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553510].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
                                                  Originally Posted by dannyadams View Post

                                                  The problem I think is the message. As you can see, people just don't want to BELIEVE the message. I think deep down inside they understand but they want to try and justify it as much as they can.

                                                  It's much like (off topic and not getting political) the Debt. We owe 14 Trillion dollars. We borrow and spend DOUBLE what we take in. But there are still people out there saying "Yeah but we need to do THIS or THAT".

                                                  I honestly don't think that the message can get out. I've tried launching WSO's (pre-launch) on product development, starting an info product business, building lists, recruiting affiliates, etc. and they didn't even get views.

                                                  Even though they continue to spin their wheels, people are still buying the "magic pill" products.

                                                  As Allen (and many others say), SELL TO THE HERD. If you know what they are buying and you are creating something completely different, I don't believe that is smart business.
                                                  Ding ding ding, and what does he win Bob? A new toaster!!!!!

                                                  Congratulations Danny, please click here to claim your prize.

                                                  No...see, people don't, won't and even don't want to get it. It is the same principle as a vacuum business that used to send sales people to my area. They were called Kirby Vacuums, these poor souls would come into your house and pitch you on the vacuum following their training for an hour and try to make the sale. If I said no thanks they walked out the door over to my neighbors and started all over again. At least as an online affiliate you are able to represent many products from many vendors at the same time.

                                                  Building authority networks of sites which are able to curb a market full of quality products is no doubt a viable and worthy income generating activity, but I will concede to your argument, affiliate marketing IS NOT a long term sustainable business model. You cannot bank on the results and accurately predict quarterly margins. THERE YOU HAPPY NOW!!! lol

                                                  Though I must say, this changes nothing about the markets available and the necessity of the affiliate hordes to do the vendors bidding. Your car needs tires, so there must be tire technicians etc etc etc. Diversity my friend, it is what makes the world go round.
                                                  Signature
                                                  Whether you think you can, or think you can't, YOU'RE RIGHT!! <~~Henry Ford

                                                  Check out my video gigs on fiverr!
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553599].message }}
                                          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                            Banned
                                            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                            Grand slam home run.

                                            In fact, this is where the MLM model is actually superior to affiliate marketing because an MLM agent actually continues being paid for the lifetime of a customer.
                                            Why do some people think that affiliates only send traffic to one offer?

                                            That isn't true.

                                            The affiliates that are doing it right are getting people on their lists where they are able to send to multiple offers over a timespan.

                                            Wouldn't you be able to figure out the lifetime value of your customer?

                                            I would think so. Just as you would as a vendor.


                                            Every major corporation understands how much it can spend in time, effort, and money in creating a new customer because it understands how much that customer spends across the entire lifetime of the relationship. The company can be far more competitive in its marketing because it can create "loss leader" strategies that even lose money on the first several transactions because they understand their financial model and how they profit on the back end.
                                            Affiliates can do this as well. See reply above. Affiliates are not just sending their traffic to one offer.


                                            Affiliates get none of this. They do all the heavy lifting, make all the investment, and get paid (if they're lucky) on the front-end shot. There's no competitive positioning. There's no price strategy. There's no segmentation or differentiation. They also can't amortize their costs of sales across multiple deals. They only get the most expensive sale - the first one.
                                            Sure they can. See reply above. They can get more than one sale by promoting many different offers since the customer is on their list as well.

                                            But an entire industry has built up around the "drive by shooting marketing" that I've described on WF in the past. It's not even marketing at the affiliate level... it's gaming the system to try to refer sales. That's why I have even laughed my head off at the nomenclature used.
                                            Not any more. It was mainly direct linking but now it is more list building, building a relationship and sending out offers just like vendors do.

                                            And yes, then you have the entire tier of "guru" folks who create revenue streams by creating info products around teaching people how to game the systems here or there. They're business model is actually more sustainable than the actual affiliate model itself - so long as there is a steady stream of dreamers who want to play business.
                                            I think the Vendor model is more profitable and easier once it is all set up.

                                            It's a convoluted mud hole quagmire, but indeed, the real winners are the vendors and the "goo roos", who both exploit the affiliates.
                                            I don't agree and I am a Vendor. Some people would rather concentrate on other things besides products creation and support.
                                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554181].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
                                              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                              Why do some people think that affiliates only send traffic to one offer?

                                              That isn't true.

                                              The affiliates that are doing it right are getting people on their lists where they are able to send to multiple offers over a timespan.

                                              Wouldn't you be able to figure out the lifetime value of your customer?

                                              I would think so. Just as you would as a vendor.

                                              Well said Thomas. Well said.
                                              Signature
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554202].message }}
                                            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                              Why do some people think that affiliates only send traffic to one offer?

                                              That isn't true.

                                              The affiliates that are doing it right are getting people on their lists where they are able to send to multiple offers over a timespan.

                                              Wouldn't you be able to figure out the lifetime value of your customer?

                                              I would think so. Just as you would as a vendor.




                                              Affiliates can do this as well. See reply above. Affiliates are not just sending their traffic to one offer.



                                              Sure they can. See reply above. They can get more than one sale by promoting many different offers since the customer is on their list as well.



                                              Not any more. It was mainly direct linking but now it is more list building, building a relationship and sending out offers just like vendors do.



                                              I think the Vendor model is more profitable and easier once it is all set up.



                                              I don't agree and I am a Vendor. Some people would rather concentrate on other things besides products creation and support.

                                              I would agree with you that you can increase the sustainability of any business by adding customers to it - which is essentially what you've suggested by promoting multiple vendor offers.

                                              What you cannot escape is the financial model of fronting 100% of the marketing costs with no control over the transaction, product, or service.

                                              That financial model places the most expensive sale on the shoulders of the affiliate for the first transaction - and typically the lowest price of product sale as well.

                                              New customers are always the most expensive in any business because you don't have any lifetime of transaction to amortize the acquisition costs across.

                                              But it's highly unlikely that a buyer will find the same affiliate, and intentionally click on the link again when they're ready to buy more.
                                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554210].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                                Banned
                                                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                                I would agree with you that you can increase the sustainability of any business by adding customers to it - which is essentially what you've suggested by promoting multiple vendor offers.

                                                What you cannot escape is the financial model of fronting 100% of the marketing costs with no control over the transaction, product, or service.

                                                That financial model places the most expensive sale on the shoulders of the affiliate for the first transaction - and typically the lowest price of product sale as well.

                                                New customers are always the most expensive in any business because you don't have any lifetime of transaction to amortize the acquisition costs across.

                                                But it's highly unlikely that a buyer will find the same affiliate, and intentionally click on the link again when they're ready to buy more.
                                                Are we talking about risk or sustainability here?

                                                Yeah, there is more risk when it comes to affiliate marketing. That doesn't take away the fact it can be sustainable.

                                                Vendors need to do quite a bit of leg work to make their companies profitable. Especially in the larger markets.

                                                Danny never answered this but maybe you will, Michael. How many businesses succeed?

                                                Not many so there is risk in any of these types of ventures.

                                                Risk may mean it is more difficult but doesn't mean impossible.
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554232].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                                  Are we talking about risk or sustainability here?

                                                  Yeah, there is more risk when it comes to affiliate marketing. That doesn't take away the fact it can be sustainable.

                                                  Vendors need to do quite a bit of leg work to make their companies profitable. Especially in the larger markets.

                                                  Danny never answered this but maybe you will, Michael. How many businesses succeed?

                                                  Not many so there is risk in any of these types of ventures.

                                                  Risk may mean it is more difficult but doesn't mean impossible.
                                                  Well in any event, sustainability is certainly better achieved by maximizing the financial model.

                                                  The level of success of any business helps it perpetuate.

                                                  Things like poor revenue models and irreplacable owner/operator skilled craftsmen without a scalable system are barriers to maximizing potential success.
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554318].message }}
                                              • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
                                                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                                I would agree with you that you can increase the sustainability of any business by adding customers to it - which is essentially what you've suggested by promoting multiple vendor offers.

                                                What you cannot escape is the financial model of fronting 100% of the marketing costs with no control over the transaction, product, or service.

                                                That financial model places the most expensive sale on the shoulders of the affiliate for the first transaction - and typically the lowest price of product sale as well.

                                                New customers are always the most expensive in any business because you don't have any lifetime of transaction to amortize the acquisition costs across.

                                                But it's highly unlikely that a buyer will find the same affiliate, and intentionally click on the link again when they're ready to buy more.
                                                So it seems AM (affiliate marketing) IS sustainable...

                                                ...but perhaps not the business of choice IF you want to run a business that has room for maximum sustainability.
                                                Signature
                                                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554253].message }}
                                                • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                                                  Thanks to Michael, I think I'm a lot closer to understanding what Danny has been saying. I think a large part of the problem here is the terms that are being used seem to mean different things to the parties discussing it.

                                                  When Danny says sustainable, what I think he means is that will the business survive YOU. A real business, in the sense he seems to be talking about, can be taken over by your kids or sold as a business entity. If I'm correct in my interpretation of what he's saying, I would have to agree with him.

                                                  Even if you have a bunch of affiliate sites set up that are getting organic traffic, if you are taking out of your business, eventually the income would dry up. How long that would take depends on a number of factors but it would die eventually.

                                                  Not trying to put words in your mouth, Danny, if my interpretation is way off, but that's what my understanding is at this point.

                                                  Tina
                                                  Signature
                                                  Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
                                                  Fast & Easy Content Creation
                                                  ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
                                                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2554347].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alice123
    There sure seems to be controversy over the affiliate business model as to whether it is a legitimate route to take in internet marketing. I appreciate hearing both sides of the story as I am thinking about soon entering this arena. It does seem to indicate that it might be a good place to start although I also hear that the best route is to have one's own product. Thanks for giving me something to consider.

    Best to all,
    Alice
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551850].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Couldn't we PLEASE have a nice, civil discussion. Maybe something less controversial...like gifting programs?

    ~M~
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551855].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Couldn't we PLEASE have a nice, civil discussion. Maybe something less controversial...like gifting programs?

      ~M~
      HAHA

      I actually thought this was pretty civil.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2551866].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Of course it's sustainable. As long as there are new products high in demand they will alwys need salesman to sell. And that's the bizz. Look at offline tele sales, salesman, direct sales, ads......always have and always will be around.

    Set up systems to sell many different products..it's as sustainable as any othe rbizz.

    I think what he means is no one product system lasts for-ever. But that's nothing to do with affiliate martketing is it? Aff. marketing is changing with the industry as the game changes.
    You do not have to use free methods only. Paid advertsing, testing, tweaking, bettering.......It's an ever evolving bizz like all others.
    Signature

    15 Minute Forex Bar Trading System Free at
    http://www.fxscalpingmethod.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552428].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Look you always get Jack ass's. I have had companies skim many sales and flat out fail to pay what was due.......it happens but they aren't around long. REAL bizz look after their good affiliates and want long term relationships. Anything else run away!

    Well, what's to stop you or I or anyone else as the vendor from not making affiliates pay back refunds (contingent on a specified maximum refund rate and minimum sales volume, etc.)?

    I'll check back after I get some sleep. Interesting conversation though.
    Signature

    15 Minute Forex Bar Trading System Free at
    http://www.fxscalpingmethod.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552434].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    the key phrase "as I see it."

    There are many million $+ affiliate companies doing very well.

    I also don't believe that it is the truth "as I see it".

    In order to have a business you MUST have 3 things.

    Product/Service
    Price
    After the sale Service.
    An affiliate has NONE of those.
    Yes they do. The product are the affiliate products. They can switch to the best sellers right away.......if it bombs they move on.

    It's a bit like trading stocks. One might say "the only people making money are the companies releasing their stocks onto the market.." and sometimes this seems it is true. But therer are many millionaire traders. Jumping from hot trend to hot trend.

    Business and affiliates are the same. Pros and cons with each. Do both or one only. Money to be made in all modules.
    Signature

    15 Minute Forex Bar Trading System Free at
    http://www.fxscalpingmethod.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2552449].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Back on topic I can say if affiliate marketing / SEM is not dead it soon will be unless there is a major swing in the way vendors work with affiliates who choose to operate with SEM as a means of driving traffic.

    As of now any affiliate that uses SEM to drive affiliate traffic is wide open to being shut down at the control of the vendor and as such the vendor holds the SEM affiliates future in hand.

    For that reason alone i am now moving away from affiliate to developing my own range of products similar to what i promoted for the traditional vendor, or i would promote vendors products only on assurances that they had an understanding that their actions now controlled my destiny and as such a pure bond of trust would be needed.
    Signature

    .

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553482].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tramp_Art
    Yes, yes and yes! Right on. I am an Amazon affiliate, and use their reputation (which incidentally is greater than mine) to sell products quickly, easily and effortlessly. I create a simple blog for a specific product, create content for the Google bots and a call to action button for the buyer. Easy as pie and I make a good income from it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553643].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Steve, I think that the concept of "unsustainable" is the real crux, not whether it's a "business".

    Yes, it's your "business", but you are working for yourself, and as soon as your efforts stop, so does your revenue. So the "business" is the person, not the systems or the asset.

    Trust me. If it were a sustainable businss model, do you not think professional investment capital would be all over the place, buying up affiliate sites right and left like mad hounds? Especially with rates of return in the low single digits right now? If you could give someone 10% on the money with a fairly low risk profile, you'll have people lining up with equity dollars in hand. The venture community is so busy right now that it's crazy.

    But it's eerily silent in this market isn't it. How come big gurus aren't selling their businesses? Where are the buyers for these multi-million dollar payday exit strategies?

    In emerging markets, the cottage businesses get consolidated. Investors realize they can capture wholesale chunks of market share by buying out small players and consolidating administrative and operational efforts. In fact, there's usually several rounds of consolidation.

    But this affiliate marketing activity has operated since, well... since the porno guys started paying commission to thumbnail listing site operators to promote smut with nary any actual acquisitons of note.

    That's because it's not sustainable, and capital doesn't invest in business ventures that stop generating revenue when the owner stops working. That's a job. It's no different than being a plumber or electrician. It's an information age trade craft.

    Even with attempts to commoditize affiliate sites with exchanges like Flippa, there's lackluster activity from professional capital. Why? Why aren't garage stage capital people buying up affiliate websites like mad?

    Because while a website is intellectual property, and an "asset", there's no business model behind that asset. Without any sustainable operational business model or system, there's no real valuation.

    "I'm #1 on Google for these keywords" doesn't create tangible value.

    Your traffic is contingent on constant labor.

    The efforts that labor must engage in changes constantly because of the dynamic nature of search and the other sites. This means it's not easy to put a production system in place, and requires "skilled operators" to constantly stay in front.

    The revenue is now wholly contingent on individuals and their constant efforts.

    You cannot readily sell what you're doing as an affiliate as an asset with real value that doesn't require another competent, skilled operator to continuously apply their knowledge and unique skill sets.

    Meanwhile, major corporations with established business systems can interchange labor at will.

    Companies like Burger King can be bought and sold like Monopoly properties. Financers will lend money based on the stability of the system, because the revenue is predictable and isn't reliant upon personal character or ability.

    Affiliates don't control the constantly changing rules of the traffic game because big players keep changing it around. Your entire business could be wiped out in a second. And you don't control the product because you're just reselling things.

    So how does one assign a valuation and risk to that "business" activity?

    I think that's the real disconnect for guys like me (and Danny Adams).

    HOWEVER! I'm not remotely suggesting that people don't do it.

    To each his own said the man who kissed the cow - and if there wasn't a guy selling me his plumbing time for $50 an hour, my toilet might have real issues.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553672].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Interesting, I heard Ewen Chia more or less said the same thing. There are real business owners vs mere "affiliate marketeers". His main business model is that he uses his own frontend products to promote other people's affiliate products in the backend.

    I raisied this issue in abestweb.com that is where affiliates for physical congregate and they are absolutely livid at the suggestion that they weren't real business owners.

    But personally speaking, I have not seen much difference. My supposedly sustinable shop selling physical products required 5 full time persons but folded up anyway after years. I made the same amount of money with supposedly unsustainable business models working part time hours over the same period of time.
    Signature

    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2553685].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
    Ok, so Warrior Michael Hiles and I have been discussing this on Skype...and he and I agreed that posting our discussion might add value to this thread (203 comments later)...

    [8:40:41 AM] Joseph Ratliff: Great stuff in rebuttle to that "danny" guy who said affiliate marketing isn't a business model.

    [8:43:46 AM] Michael Hiles: well i'm not exactly disagreeing with him

    [8:44:11 AM] Michael Hiles: it's a business, but more of a proprietorship/trade

    [8:44:26 AM] Michael Hiles: and i think that's sort of his point, although he's not very
    good at making it

    [8:44:59 AM] Joseph Ratliff: Sorry, bad term...I meant nice "addition" to what he was saying...you explained it better.

    [8:45:18 AM] Michael Hiles: it is a business

    [8:45:23 AM] Joseph Ratliff: I agree.

    [8:45:26 AM] Michael Hiles: it's not a particularly sustainable one

    [8:45:40 AM] Joseph Ratliff: I think we have to define "sustainable"

    [8:45:44 AM] Michael Hiles: so in that sense it requires constant hands on skilled labor

    [8:45:58 AM] Joseph Ratliff: But that labor sustains it.

    [8:46:02 AM] Michael Hiles: that's right

    [8:46:07 AM] Michael Hiles: that's what makes it a trade

    [8:46:28 AM] Joseph Ratliff: So, as you mentioned, proprietorship.

    [8:46:34 AM] Michael Hiles: yep

    [8:46:40 AM] Michael Hiles: or small partnerships

    [8:46:56 AM] Michael Hiles: you don't see a lot of publically traded plumbing companies

    [8:47:19 AM] Joseph Ratliff: True also...I'm thinking danny meant "not scalable" past a certain point, and confused that with sustainable.

    [8:47:41 AM] Michael Hiles: could be

    [8:47:55 AM] Michael Hiles: both sides are right and wrong

    [8:48:00 AM] Joseph Ratliff: Most people I talk to confuse those two all the time.
    [8:48:05 AM] Joseph Ratliff: Yep
    [8:48:12 AM] Joseph Ratliff: I agree.

    [8:48:18 AM] Michael Hiles: i see it as a skilled tradesperson

    [8:48:24 AM] Joseph Ratliff: Like a copywriter.

    [8:48:28 AM] Michael Hiles: yes sir

    [8:48:39 AM] Michael Hiles: and i thnk that's the hangup danny has

    [8:48:47 AM] Michael Hiles: because once you stop working it, the business stops earning

    [8:49:04 AM] Michael Hiles: google can change everything in an instant

    [8:49:40 AM] Michael Hiles: it's far less of a business system

    [8:49:50 AM] Michael Hiles: and reliant upon the effort of the individual

    [8:50:00 AM] Michael Hiles: danny is a hard capital theory guy

    [8:51:23 AM] Joseph Ratliff: Ok...but just because you have a "trade" where when you stop working, you stop earning, doesn't make it any less or more of a business model...you're still conducting business right?

    [8:51:55 AM] Michael Hiles: well to a capital guy, no

    [8:52:00 AM] Michael Hiles: to an operations guy, yes

    [8:52:46 AM] Michael Hiles: if you say that a business is an entity that creates revenue independent of the activity of the shareholders, then no

    [8:53:17 AM] Michael Hiles: if you say that a business is the legal entity under which an operations guy conducts his income producing activity, then yes

    [8:53:47 AM] Michael Hiles: potato, potahto

    [8:54:12 AM] Joseph Ratliff: ahhh
    [8:54:27 AM] Joseph Ratliff: so the same, but not the same...we're all right, and we're all wrong.

    [8:54:42 AM] Michael Hiles: well at least all the way back to Adam Smith anyway

    [8:54:47 AM] Michael Hiles: capital vs. labor

    [8:54:51 AM] Michael Hiles: owner vs. employee

    [8:54:59 AM] Michael Hiles: one cannot exist without the other