The stigma of MLM's....

by Darunner14 127 replies
Hello

I know and heard a lot about MLM's. A ton of people have a stigma that MLM (all) are a scam. So for example lets say that a very good MLM came along, and was made by a long time online business. Maybe a company ranked number 37 on 500 Inc. Magazine?

My question to you? If you seen a good MLM program? Would you believe it?
What would it take for you to join?

Here is a quote "A pyramid scheme is very easy to spot: it has no products at all, and earnings have no cut off point meaning that the person on top always earns more than everybody else." Now would you agree with this statement?

Now if the MLM had products? Does it make it legit, and not a pyramid Scheme?

Now let me say I am in a LEGIT MLM, because I done the research, everything makes sense, I see the proof that it is working among others, it has products, their is a time limit, and either you make it or you dont.

Now I am curious to know your opinion?

THanks!
#main internet marketing discussion forum #mlm #stigma
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  • Profile picture of the author Big Al
    For the me the problem is that even though there must be a product (ie. to make sure it's not just a passing money around deal) ... most of the people aren't in it for the product, don't really believe in the core product ... and really sell it on the making money aspect.

    Not the value the product offers.

    Plus I think the charasmatic guys who jump in and 'proclaim' that it's the easiest way to make money, the best thing since sliced bread ... and that the product will be in every household by [insert date] still puts me off.

    But then I did only try one that a 'friend' sold me - was piled high with BS success stories about living in cars and being homeless - and revolved around selling/abusing your contacts.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
      Originally Posted by Big Al View Post

      For the me the problem is that even though there must be a product (ie. to make sure it's not just a passing money around deal) ... most of the people aren't in it for the product, don't really believe in the core product ... and really sell it on the making money aspect.
      Agreed! And it's my experience that this is because they're thinking more about their needs than those of the customer.

      Sounds crazy, but if you have something good that really benefits people, more than just being an "opportunity" to make money, it will sell. How many of those things are sold via MLM though?
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      • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
        Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

        Agreed! And it's my experience that this is because they're thinking more about their needs than those of the customer.

        Sounds crazy, but if you have something good that really benefits people, more than just being an "opportunity" to make money, it will sell. How many of those things are sold via MLM though?

        Very Very Few! Well for now about the only MLM that has a decent product, is GDI that I can think of.

        As I think that many ppl want their own website, and for 10$ thats about the average cost for a site nowadays. Just my thought anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

          Very Very Few! Well for now about the only MLM that has a decent product, is GDI that I can think of.

          As I think that many ppl want their own website, and for 10$ thats about the average cost for a site nowadays. Just my thought anyway.
          No, it's WAY more than just a thought.

          It's a freaking sales pitch!

          Let it go.

          The fact that you say you don't want to make firends says more than you are remotely capable of realizing.

          I've heard of thick, but you take the cake.

          You know what? we've been trying to be helpful, and you still gotta spew out your MLM BS.

          AGAIN, you have proven my point about the C-R-A-P that is known as MLM. And, personally, I say good riddance.
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          • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
            Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

            No, it's WAY more than just a thought.

            It's a freaking sales pitch!

            Let it go.

            The fact that you say you don't want to make firends says more than you are remotely capable of realizing.

            I've heard of thick, but you take the cake.

            You know what? we've been trying to be helpful, and you still gotta spew out your MLM BS.

            AGAIN, you have proven my point about the C-R-A-P that is known as MLM. And, personally, I say good riddance.
            Whatever dude! I was stating a point! And where are any my URLS? YEAH you dont see any! AMEN that the heavens have awersed! BYE Michael!
            Cuz I really didn't give a sh*t what you had to say anyway!
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
              Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

              Whatever dude! I was stating a point! And where are any my URLS? YEAH you dont see any! AMEN that the heavens have awersed! BYE Michael!
              Cuz I really didn't give a sh*t what you had to say anyway!
              That's okay, you don't have to. But YOU are the one who asked.

              But please understand that I really am trying to help. When I say I used to be like you, I mean it.

              Sometimes it may seem that my comments are more venomous than they need to be, but it's for the right reasons.

              I still see what you are doing as a sales pitch. We get it, we really do.

              You don't want to make friends, fine. BUT IF YOU ARE IN AN ML-FREAKING-M...isn't that kind of the idea? To make friends. To get sign ups?

              You have a lot to learn little one.

              Open your ears and open your mind and you could be more successful than you think.

              I don't think you're a bad person at all. I think you are being misled and have bought in to the typical lies of MLM, but that is not you're fault. They are experts at tearing down people's defenses and getting them see the "logic" of their "network marketing plan".

              Please look at what I've said with an open mind. You don't have to give a $#!+ or anything else, but consider the possibility that there is a seed of insight in there that could lead you to bigger and better things.

              When you do MLM or network marketing, you confine yourself to their rules, and are at their mercy to trust they will pay you 100% of what they should and 100% on time. I'm sure they do, but remember one other thing, they MAKE the rules AND they can change them at any time. It's actually pretty scary when you think about it.

              All the best,
              Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author DogScout
          Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

          Very Very Few! Well for now about the only MLM that has a decent product, is GDI that I can think of.

          As I think that many ppl want their own website, and for 10$ thats about the average cost for a site nowadays. Just my thought anyway.
          $10/month is about 3 times what I can get hosting and a domain for ($ 3.22... $7 tops for 'unlimited' bandwidth & domains). (I think Powweb has a $2.77 special for 2 years, and they are load balanced... meaning your site(s) is on 4 servers). Not sure what hosting you have been looking at. Maybe you want to look around?
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Is why as a newer peson in WSO that I have a few thanks?
            I don't know what you mean. WSO is a special section where members sell the products they have created - it's not a discussion area. Thanks aren't really a concern - if someone agrees with you or thinks your post was useful to them may click to thank you or may not. No biggie. Members who don't thank others who help them may not be thanked much themselves. It's part of that "community" thing.

            I do OK in IM and I'm also a freelancer/ghostwriter. My mlm experience was from 2001-2003 though I remained upgraded for a couple more years while collecting residual payments (which do drop gradually when you quit working an mlm no matter what they tell you).

            I was new online when I started mlm - and nobody told me it was supposed to be hard so I just did it. Sounds silly now - but that's what happened.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
              LMAO...at the OP and at some of the Posters. The bottom line, every last
              business on the planet is a MLM of some kind. I dont care how you adress
              the model, but all are multilevel companies.

              Money flows in and rises to the top. Why do CEO's make more than the V.P's, why
              do the VPs make more than the Marketing people. Why do the Marketing people make
              more than the Secretaries, the janitors, the repair men...the product fullfillment and so on.

              EVERY COMPANY IS AN MLM of some kind, some have better products than others, like BMW vs Honda.

              MLM is an obviously viable model as its been around for 2000 years plus. It'w withstood the test of time.

              Now with that being said...

              MLM- Success rate 20% Failure 80%

              95% of most small business fail in the first 5 years...WOW, that makes me want to open some kind of a small business doesnt it you?

              I would hate to guess at the % of people who fail in the I'M WORLD, those #s are staggering.

              The problem is... small business thinks just because there is money or cashflow coming through the door, that they are making money. Thats fales obviously as you need to be making PROFITS. So they hang onto the small business model what ever that business may be hoping for success. Who in their right mind would throw in the towel, with a 100k invested.

              The reason people throw in the towel with traditional MLM, they Wont take the time, as least one YEAR, to learn the necessary skills to become a solid marketer. They wont approach it as a BUSINESS, and because of the lack of capital needed to get started they can walk away from $1500 a lot easier than $100k.

              MLM doesnt Fail, its a proven viable model, People FAIL, just like they do in every other industry on the planet. Including IM'.

              Just my 2 cents... Controversial as hell , YEP!! Facts tell, and the writing is on the wall.

              Regards,
              Robert
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post

                LMAO...at the OP and at some of the Posters. The bottom line, every last
                business on the planet is a MLM of some kind. I dont care how you adress
                the model, but all are multilevel companies.

                Money flows in and rises to the top. Why do CEO's make more than the V.P's, why
                do the VPs make more than the Marketing people. Why do the Marketing people make
                more than the Secretaries, the janitors, the repair men...the product fullfillment and so on.

                EVERY COMPANY IS AN MLM of some kind, some have better products than others, like BMW vs Honda.

                MLM is an obviously viable model as its been around for 2000 years plus. It'w withstood the test of time.

                Now with that being said...

                MLM- Success rate 20% Failure 80%

                95% of most small business fail in the first 5 years...WOW, that makes me want to open some kind of a small business doesnt it you?

                I would hate to guess at the % of people who fail in the I'M WORLD, those #s are staggering.

                The problem is... small business thinks just because there is money or cashflow coming through the door, that they are making money. Thats fales obviously as you need to be making PROFITS. So they hang onto the small business model what ever that business may be hoping for success. Who in their right mind would throw in the towel, with a 100k invested.

                The reason people throw in the towel with traditional MLM, they Wont take the time, as least one YEAR, to learn the necessary skills to become a solid marketer. They wont approach it as a BUSINESS, and because of the lack of capital needed to get started they can walk away from $1500 a lot easier than $100k.

                MLM doesnt Fail, its a proven viable model, People FAIL, just like they do in every other industry on the planet. Including IM'.

                Just my 2 cents... Controversial as hell , YEP!! Facts tell, and the writing is on the wall.

                Regards,
                Robert
                Come on, Robert, you know what we're talking about.

                Semantics have their place, but MLM, in the sense that it is commonly understood DOES fail! Period. It's set up so most people WILL fail.

                MLM is not a business model. It's an unethical way to steal money from gullible people.

                I know EXACTLY what everybody is thinking...

                "Gee, I wonder how Michael Oksa feels about MLM?"

                Right? LOL

                All the best,
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                  Come on, Robert, you know what we're talking about.

                  Semantics have their place, but MLM, in the sense that it is commonly understood DOES fail! Period. It's set up so most people WILL fail.

                  MLM is not a business model. It's an unethical way to steal money from gullible people.

                  I know EXACTLY what everybody is thinking...

                  "Gee, I wonder how Michael Oksa feels about MLM?"

                  Right? LOL

                  All the best,
                  Michael
                  Michael,
                  you know i have respect for you, so i wont enter this kind of debate. But i can understand where you could have a sour taste in your mouth for MLM. On the other hand, as an example, which i dont promote here at all, i have a very successful organization in Coffee.

                  Now..my question simply put, When i am Consulting a Client for Offline, or Business, I charge a very very heavy fee and my question to you? If you could get in my organization for $300 and $50 a month to learn what i know about sales... Brother, that is a very very cheap Education... Hell i spend that in a week with my own personal education still to this day.

                  People join MLMS for different reasons, If they can't hack it there on a small scale, chances are they cant hack it anywhere in the business world. So a cheap education, and a great place to learn things like.....

                  Handling Rejection
                  Phone Skills
                  Sale Skills
                  Marketing
                  Presentation skills from the front of the room
                  Small Business Management skills
                  and the list goes on and on...

                  How can u put a price on that... and Oh ya, U can have that for $300 one time, and $50 bucks a month thereafter. Try getting my time...or yours for that matter for those kinds of measly fees....It wont happen.

                  MLM...is and can be good for people... Thanks my story and i am stickin too it.

                  <cringing Low> and waiting for your Good Debate back...
                  Robert
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                    Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post

                    Michael,
                    you know i have respect for you, so i wont enter this kind of debate. But i can understand where you could have a sour taste in your mouth for MLM. On the other hand, as an example, which i dont promote here at all, i have a very successful organization in Coffee.

                    Now..my question simply put, When i am Consulting a Client for Offline, or Business, I charge a very very heavy fee and my question to you? If you could get in my organization for $300 and $50 a month to learn what i know about sales... Brother, that is a very very cheap Education... Hell i spend that in a week with my own personal education still to this day.

                    People join MLMS for different reasons, If they can't hack it there on a small scale, chances are they cant hack it anywhere in the business world. So a cheap education, and a great place to learn things like.....

                    Handling Rejection
                    Phone Skills
                    Sale Skills
                    Marketing
                    Presentation skills from the front of the room
                    Small Business Management skills
                    and the list goes on and on...

                    How can u put a price on that... and Oh ya, U can have that for $300 one time, and $50 bucks a month thereafter. Try getting my time...or yours for that matter for those kinds of measly fees....It wont happen.

                    MLM...is and can be good for people... Thanks my story and i am stickin too it.

                    <cringing Low> and waiting for your Good Debate back...
                    Robert
                    Hi Robert,

                    I think you raise a very interesting point. People can learn about different aspects of business through IM, no question about it, but it's about the worst way I can think of to do it.

                    For one thing, the practices are attrocious. Notice I said "practices" and not "rules". Normally the parent company will have rules, but the group a person joins may ignore them almost entirely (except for how to get paid).

                    In the 1970s or 1980s, Amway had a huge problem with AMOs (Amway Motivational Orginizations). These are the people most use as an example of those who "do very well in MLM". As others have mentioned, those who make the most money are those who seel the books, CDs and seminar tickets - that money is NOT the result of the actual MLM. Some of the top earners make 90% of their income in this fashion, and that's after, supposedly, being at the top of the compensation ladder.

                    Anyway, my point is that these orginizations are the real herat of the industry. They don't care if they teach people to lie (again in actual practice, not lip service), cheat, steal or even make threats.

                    That's not a business education, that's learning how to be a criminal.

                    So, after that big build up, this is what I'd like to say...

                    Just because something good can be derived from something bad doesn't turn that bad thing into something good.

                    All the best,
                    Michael
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              • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
                Some MLM companies are direct sales companies- Shaklee comes to mind.

                There's a product that you make commission off of (sound familiar any affiliates??) and there's a business 'opportunity' that you can buy into (sound familiar any franchisees?)

                The "stigma', as I see it, is the rah-rahness (read: hype) and deception ("no, no the meeting isn't about Amway", yet you show up and it IS about Amway). But, hype and deception fuels about 90% of the WSO's here, as well as the "guru" launches.

                Not a lot different than affiliate marketing, franchising and IM'ing, now is it?

                Warmly,

                Brandi
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                • Profile picture of the author Joe Benjamin
                  Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

                  Some MLM companies are direct sales companies- Shaklee comes to mind.

                  There's a product that you make commission off of (sound familiar any affiliates??) and there's a business 'opportunity' that you can buy into (sound familiar any franchisees?)

                  The "stigma', as I see it, is the rah-rahness (read: hype) and deception ("no, no the meeting isn't about Amway", yet you show up and it IS about Amway). But, hype and deception fuels about 90% of the WSO's here, as well as the "guru" launches.

                  Not a lot different than affiliate marketing, franchising and IM'ing, now is it?

                  Warmly,

                  Brandi
                  Exactly.

                  It's a lot of double standard in this forum and most of
                  the people are simply "ignorant" about a business
                  model they don't understand.

                  So it comes down to belief. False beliefs. MLM has
                  helped me grow from the inside out many times
                  faster than any IM program I know of.

                  If you pick a good program and
                  sponsor, they will do things that will make you very
                  uncomfortable...and WILL change your world.

                  But if you're ignorant and CHOOSE to stay that way,
                  what's the point of trying to help those people under-
                  stand the incredible benefits of a great team, a great
                  sponsor, and a great business model and product?

                  There is none.

                  So, I say let those here stay where they are mentally
                  and only deal with those who WANT to understand
                  MLM/Network Marketing/Direct Sales.

                  I stopped caring why people in this forum or any where
                  else hated MLM. It just doesn't matter, and I quickly
                  learned it was a waste of my time.

                  Instead...I'm on my way to making my first 5-figure
                  monthly income because of the incredible growth that
                  takes place from joining a GOOD business in this
                  industry.

                  But...the MLM/Network/Direct Sales industry changed
                  my life to become the person I am today -- Internet
                  Marketing could NEVER do the same. It just helps you
                  make MONEY.

                  And...that's fine. But are you the person you need to
                  become to handle it? Most IM'ers are not.
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              • Profile picture of the author DogScout
                Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post

                LMAO...at the OP and at some of the Posters. The bottom line, every last
                business on the planet is a MLM of some kind.
                Robert
                Every dealership I have worked at, the top salesperson(s) make more than the general manager. Granted that is only 5, but I know other people that work at 100-200 more that are the same. In a slow sales month, mechanics have made more than the GM.

                My father was a CEO of a mid-sized electronics firm and had salesman making more than he and he wasn't above hiring a dept. mgr at a salary over his if they were worth it. (Although that is less and less true today do to board of directors thinking they need to grossly over pay their CEOs)

                Even on Wall Street, most good (lucky?) traders make more than their managers. I could write a book of corporate pay scales in current use that defy this notion. (It is true, there are some employees that cannot raise, income-wise to a level over their direct manager or CEO, but I do not believe that proves your point.)

                The corporate pay scales are not cut and dried 'pyramids' by any definition.
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                • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                  Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

                  Every dealership I have worked at, the top salesperson(s) make more than the general manager. Granted that is only 5, but I know other people that work at 100-200 more that are the same. In a slow sales month, mechanics have made more than the GM.

                  My father was a CEO of a mid-sized electronics firm and had salesman making more than he and he wasn't above hiring a dept. mgr at a salary over his if they were worth it. (Although that is less and less true today do to board of directors thinking they need to grossly over pay their CEOs)

                  Even on Wall Street, most good (lucky?) traders make more than their managers. I could write a book of corporate pay scales in current use that defy this notion. (It is true, there are some employees that cannot raise, income-wise to a level over their direct manager or CEO, but I do not believe that proves your point.)

                  The corporate pay scales are not cut and dried 'pyramids' by any definition.
                  Another example would be professional sports franchises. I'm sure Joe Girardi wouldn't mind swapping paychecks with Alex Rodriguez.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    In my part-time weekend job (a job I worked full time for years) I earn more per hour than those 2 levels above me. It's why I've turned down promotion offers - don't need the status and don't want a pay cut:rolleyes:

                    A company's organizational structure is not the same as an mlm downline.

                    You don't get paid for recruiting to mlm's - you earn when the new recruit upgrades to paid status. Success in an mlm depends on adding new people to your downline and convincing them to upgrade and start their own downlines. That's the nature of the beast. Some people love it - and some don't.

                    kay
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        • Profile picture of the author IncomePowerBoost
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by IncomePowerBoost View Post

            OMG GDI is the Worst example. The compenstaion plan is crap and is there product 10 per month is ourtragiousely overpriced. I can get far superior product form Godaddy For 20$ a Year.

            In fact I have an article on my blog that has been "Liked" over 50 times about gdi and one of the"teams" that make outragious claims that GDI as a company does nothing about. there is also a "why people have problems with GDI" on the forum thats 3 pages long
            I agree completely.

            In my opinion (I'm not a lawyer) that company is inevitably going to have a major legal accident one day, simply because they make absolutely no attempt whatsoever to comply with the retail sales regulations (for which so many otherwise lawful MLM companies have been closed down by courts and called "illegal pyramids").

            If a company and its distributors don't have income arising from genuine retail sales to genuine retail customers, then one day they will have such an accident.

            The point is that the products have to be "worth it" in the sense that people will buy them without joining the "business opportunity" or becoming a distributor themselves.

            GDI just doesn't have retail sales. The only people who pay their prices are people becoming distributors. And that puts a huge legal question-mark over their heads (in my non-lawyer's opinion).

            The great "excuse" always offered by distributors of companies like this is "Do you think we would still be trading successfully after so many years if we were doing anything illegal?" The answer is yes: I do think they might be. Exactly as many others have sometimes been in the past, after many years. Some companies end up eventually being taken to court and wound up under the retail sales regulations after trading apparently successfully for very many years. And at the moment, regulation is getting tougher and prosecutions a little more common.

            (The other thing they often say is a kind of challenge to you to produce in writing all the retail sales regulations. Apparently they often lack the awareness to appreciate that much law is precedent-law, and isn't actually written in any statutes at all! You can quote previous cases at them, and give them details of why the companies concerned were wound up by court order, and when you do that they sometimes go 'mysteriously' silent. :rolleyes: )

            Retail sales matter. The regulators say so. The MLM lawyers say so. The FTC says so. And most importantly of all, the courts say so. There's an interesting article here, written by an industry expert: don't forget this url: Retail sales
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Send Out Cards is the only MLM or Network Marketing company I've even considered in close to 10 years. In my limited exposure to them, it appears to be a company where someone could make decent money on retail sales alone if they put in the time/effort. I just haven't set aside time to conduct further due diligence. But it does seem like something any "offline consultant" would be prudent to at least consider.

              I'm sure there are a handful of other good companies. But I'm not actively looking for MLM or Network Marketing companies to get involved with.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                Send Out Cards is the only MLM or Network Marketing company I've even considered in close to 10 years. In my limited exposure to them, it appears to be a company where someone could make decent money on retail sales alone if they put in the time/effort.
                I'm sure this is right.

                I actually joined a different one, and it took me 8 or 9 months to learn that it wasn't really for me; but if ever I looked again, Send Out Cards would be right at the top of my list of companies to look at.

                (I also quite like the look of one or two of the non-MLM network marketing companies; but that's another matter.)
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                • Profile picture of the author SuzanneR
                  how about Team National? To me, that one sounds too good to be true.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by SuzanneR View Post

                    how about Team National? To me, that one sounds too good to be true.
                    To me, it sounds extremely scammy and exactly like "a legal accident waiting to happen".

                    There certainly seems also to be a whole plethora of online information and warnings substantiating this perspective.

                    It appears from both their promotional materials and their distributors' own representations that they have absolutely no retail basis at all: the "products" seem to be "discount vouchers" of the type widely available elsewhere without needing to pay Team National $2,000 for them, and the way their distributors are prohibited from any online sponsoring at all (though perhaps understandable, given the "legal delicacy" of their situation) would also concern me greatly. Personal opinion only, of course. I'm just saying ...

                    The law (almost everywhere) says that the commission payments made when people join must be payments for the commissionable element of products purchased only and not for sponsoring/recruiting. Calling "discount vouchers" "products purchased" is, at best, a very gray area and one which has certainly led to legal and regulatory problems for many so-called network marketing companies in the past, most notably in the travel industry.

                    Personally, I wouldn't touch this one with a 10-foot barge-pole.
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    • Profile picture of the author GenerousBoy
      I think to be successful at mlm you probably have to have a large network of mostly gullible friends (or 'friends'). Or you've just got this winning personality Anyway, for me the downer is I never really understand what value it is I'm providing for anyone. It just seems like passing money around. It reminds me of collecting enough friends for your ten year-old birthday party so you feel wanted. If we're serious about marketing, surely we need to learn that we are not just making money but providing solutions, benefits and value to people. Make sense?
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      • Profile picture of the author SuzanneR
        Originally Posted by GenerousBoy View Post

        I think to be successful at mlm you probably have to have a large network of mostly gullible friends (or 'friends').
        \

        That pretty much sums it up, in my opinion. If you're willing to lose friends and family...go right ahead with MLM.

        I attended an MLM info session recently at someone's house. Very nice person...but I'm curious to see where she's at with this in say, 6 months. She's part of that National Team or whatever it's called...where you supposedly earn commission from spending money online. (I have to admit, I went for the pizza and to meet a friend of a friend :-))
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          This "warm market prospecting" is a joke, for network marketing.

          Professional network marketers, who know what they're doing and want to duplicate a successful business, these days, are teaching people to avoid "warm market prospecting" at all cost.

          It's not duplicable. You can sponsor some people that way, but not retain them.

          It's a way of persuading people who were willing to look only on the basis that they know you. It's the exact opposite of the far more successful approach of "showing your business opportunity only to people who are already looking for one".

          It's 1950's-style MLM.
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          • Profile picture of the author brendan301
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            This "warm market prospecting" is a joke, for network marketing.

            Professional network marketers, who know what they're doing and want to duplicate a successful business, these days, are teaching people to avoid "warm market prospecting" at all cost.

            It's not duplicable. You can sponsor some people that way, but not retain them.

            It's a way of persuading people who were willing to look only on the basis that they know you. It's the exact opposite of the far more successful approach of "showing your business opportunity only to people who are already looking for one".

            It's 1950's-style MLM.
            the sad part is it's still being taught today.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by brendan301 View Post

              the sad part is it's still being taught today.
              Indeed.

              But only by people who don't know what they're talking about. Typically, they've been involved in 5 or more different MLM's over the last 5 years, have never actually made a living in any of them, still don't understand why not, and won't from their next 5 either.
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              • Profile picture of the author brendan301
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                Indeed.

                But only by people who don't know what they're talking about. Typically, they've been involved in 5 or more different MLM's over the last 5 years, have never actually made a living in any of them, still don't understand why not, and won't from their next 5 either.
                not too long ago i looked at one seriously. why? i believed in the service they provide and have used it. so i read up on their policies regarding marketing. i noticed that they make you pay for a cookie cutter website hanging off their domain. so basically by promoting your "site" you're really promoting their domain. they basically handcuff their "business owners" online as far as what you can or can't do to promote your site online. and it's more "can't do's" than anything else. basically they force you to work the business face to face instead of putting together a sales message, offering free information to those who are interested, and selling to a "warm" market. in their mind the warm market is people you know, regardless of whether they want or need what you have to offer.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            This "warm market prospecting" is a joke, for network marketing.

            Professional network marketers, who know what they're doing and want to duplicate a successful business, these days, are teaching people to avoid "warm market prospecting" at all cost.

            It's not duplicable. You can sponsor some people that way, but not retain them.

            It's a way of persuading people who were willing to look only on the basis that they know you. It's the exact opposite of the far more successful approach of "showing your business opportunity only to people who are already looking for one".

            It's 1950's-style MLM.
            We agree on most things regarding MLM but on this topic
            we couldn't disagree more. I have yet to meet anyone who
            has built a large, stable organization online.

            I have, on the other hand, met many people who have built,
            and continue to build, large, stable organizations via the warm
            market.

            I think, perhaps, people confuse chasing friends and family
            with working their warm market effectively. That's obviously
            not true but those who learn how to do it correctly never have
            the need to do anything else.

            I've never bought a lead in more than 30 years and I've never
            spoken to anyone about my business who wasn't introduced to
            me by someone I already knew.

            I said I was moseying on... what am I doing here? LOL

            Tsnyder
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            If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

              We agree on most things regarding MLM but on this topic we couldn't disagree more. I have yet to meet anyone who
              has built a large, stable organization online.
              Indeed.

              We agree about that, too.

              I've made many posts in this very forum arguing vehemently against "online network marketing" for exactly the reason you yourself give - so you won't find disagreement between us there. (Nor in many places, I think).

              Who said that "online" is the only other alternative to "warm market prospecting"?

              Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

              I have, on the other hand, met many people who have built, and continue to build, large, stable organizations via the warm market.
              Well, there you have far more experience than I do; but this should surprise nobody!

              Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

              I've never spoken to anyone about my business who wasn't introduced to me by someone I already knew.
              This, I must say, does surprise me! Have you never advertised?

              Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

              I said I was moseying on... what am I doing here? LOL
              The same as me, perhaps ...
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              • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                Indeed.

                We agree about that, too.

                I've made many posts in this very forum arguing vehemently against "online network marketing" for exactly the reason you yourself give - so you won't find disagreement between us there. (Nor in many places, I think).

                Who said that "online" is the only other alternative to "warm market prospecting"?
                Fair point. When I'm on the Warrior Forum my mind is usually attuned
                to online marketing issues so I erroneously made the leap. Yes, there are
                alternatives to warm market outside of online marketing.


                This, I must say, does surprise me! Have you never advertised?
                Not for my own direct benefit. I've had associates tell me they
                just can't approach their warm market so I've helped them put together
                various lead generating campaigns involving print ads that direct people
                to recorded messages.

                As an example of my firm belief in warm market prospecting our company
                had a team building contest during the 1st Quarter of this year where points
                were awarded not only for sponsoring new reps but for helping those new reps
                build their teams.

                The company has approximately 100,000 reps worldwide. Three of my
                personally sponsored reps placed in the top 15. Not one of them purchased
                a lead, ran any type of advertising or has even a basic website other than
                their company sites which are used for walking a prospect through the
                system.

                Warm market works if done correctly. I'd be happy to PM you a link to
                a site I put up for some warm market prospects a while back. It shows
                how I work my warm market without chasing friends and family around
                all day. It's a short video. (yes, it has active controls...lol)

                Tsnyder
                Signature
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post

                  Alexa - Fran Tarkenton is a former football QB who has probably been quit from playing longer than you have been alive
                  Thanks - I had a look at Google, too, and see that I was displaying only my own ignorance: obviously in America he's someone that "people have heard of".

                  Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post

                  And I agree that Trump and Kiyosaki would NOT make me think highly of a business model. If anything it would probably cause me to look very closely at it to see the "catch".
                  Indeed. Trump has had an extremely checkered career full of highly questionable "judgments", and Kiyosaki has been pretty firmly deconstructed, for my money.

                  Originally Posted by dremora View Post

                  The guys on the top of the pyramid make all the money. The little people at the bottom are screwed. That's how it works... If you get in early and sign up a load of people, you make money. The more levels down, the worse it gets
                  That's widely believed, but actually that's not how it works at all, Dremora: that's just one of the many myths of MLM. The reality is rather the opposite: "getting in early" actually has huge disadvantages. In all the really long-established and successful MLM companies, the millionaires have been the people who joined later, and there are very good and valid reasons for that (including among them the fact that people who know what they're doing in that industry will rarely join a start-up, because so few survive).

                  In many companies, the most successful earners and those with the biggest, most stable and most duplicated businesses have been those who've joined after the company was decades old.

                  Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

                  Warm market works if done correctly. I'd be happy to PM you a link to a site I put up for some warm market prospects a while back. It shows how I work my warm market without chasing friends and family around all day. It's a short video. (yes, it has active controls...lol)
                  LOL, you've been reading more of my posts than I realised.

                  Your company is exceptional because of its product (and for other reasons too, I suspect). Even I can see that warm marketing can work for that product, because it's one that everyone already uses. I'm sure you're about to tell me that you've used warm market prospecting for other companies in the past, and I accept that too.

                  I dare say warm market prospecting can work, if well done enough. It's very much the opposite to the model I was taught, which is that you should show your business opportunity only to people who are already looking for one, the reasoning being that you can sponsor "warm market" people but most of them will actually drop out and not duplicate your business over the next couple of years, whereas if you work exclusively (as far as the business opportunity is concerned) with people who are actively looking for a home-based business opportunity, and particularly if you avoid building your business online, your retention-rate will be far higher. Which I certainly believe.

                  If my MLM (which was a good company, I thought at the time and still think now, in spite of its not being for me) had had its "better-quality products" at a lower-than-store price, like yours, I'd probably never have discovered internet marketing. (And think of all the aggravation that so many Warriors might have been saved!) :p

                  Always a pleasure to discuss with you, Terry (and obviously I recognise that on this subject I could learn a great deal from you). Have a good weekend.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

    Here is a quote "A pyramid scheme is very easy to spot: it has no products at all, and earnings have no cut off point meaning that the person on top always earns more than everybody else." Now would you agree with this statement?
    No - that's nonsense. Plenty of illegal pyramid schemes have products. They've had them, and been selling them right up to the day that the court's closed them down for being an illegal pyramid scam.

    Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

    Now if the MLM had products? Does it make it legit, and not a pyramid Scheme?
    By no means necessarily. There are many ways it can still be an illegal pyramid, according to courts and regulators.

    I don't know who told you that illegal pyramids "don't have products", but it's not nearly as simple as that. Distinguishing between a legitimate MLM company and an illegal pyramid is by no means a trivial matter (unfortunately for the public). Individual cases are often debated in court extensively by lawyers on both sides, and until the court actually rules, nobody knows for sure.
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    • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      No - that's nonsense. Plenty of illegal pyramid schemes have products. They've had them, and been selling them right up to the day that the court's closed them down for being an illegal pyramid scam.



      By no means necessarily. There are many ways it can still be an illegal pyramid, according to courts and regulators.

      I don't know who told you that illegal pyramids "don't have products", but it's not nearly as simple as that. Distinguishing between a legitimate MLM company and an illegal pyramid is by no means a trivial matter (unfortunately for the public). Individual cases are often debated in court extensively by lawyers on both sides, and until the court actually rules, nobody knows for sure.
      Wow, you know a lot about the law part of MLM's. I never remember hearing about them in the courts, except for Bernie Maddoff, which wasn't even a MLM Scam. It was somethign different. But I do agree that the pyramid scams need to be stopped, and if it means that the courts need to decided, then fine, to allow the better ones to be discovered?
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

        Wow, you know a lot about the law part of MLM's. I never remember hearing about them in the courts, except for Bernie Maddoff, which wasn't even a MLM Scam. It was somethign different. But I do agree that the pyramid scams need to be stopped, and if it means that the courts need to decided, then fine, to allow the better ones to be discovered?
        Then, with all due respect, I would suggest you do the simplest of research and educate yourself before you waste more of your time, money and resources. MLM cases have been brought to court numerous times, and that easily-verifiable fact is FAR from a secret.

        ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      No - that's nonsense. Plenty of illegal pyramid schemes have products. They've had them, and been selling them right up to the day that the court's closed them down for being an illegal pyramid scam.



      By no means necessarily. There are many ways it can still be an illegal pyramid, according to courts and regulators.

      I don't know who told you that illegal pyramids "don't have products", but it's not nearly as simple as that. Distinguishing between a legitimate MLM company and an illegal pyramid is by no means a trivial matter (unfortunately for the public). Individual cases are often debated in court extensively by lawyers on both sides, and until the court actually rules, nobody knows for sure.
      You definitely can have decent Products and it can still be an illegal pyramid scheme.
      Case and Point : I was involved with an MLM years ago in the early nineties. It was the selling of Air and Water Purifiers. It was definitely a Product and a decent one at that but they offered what people refer to as 'Front Loading' the Product. This means that if you bought a certain Dollar amount of the Product upfront, you would begin with a Higher Commission rate off future sales.

      Needless to say this Company got shut down by the FTC a few years later as it ruled this to be representative of a Pyramid Scheme.

      Funny thing is my brother, who got me in this Program , still has boxes of unopened water purifiers still scattered throughout my Mother's garage after all these years !!
      As I am sure tens of thousands of others still do too !!
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  • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
    I appreciate your opinion. Do your remember that MLM your body told you about?
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Do you mean an MLM like the one you are promoting your affiliate link for?

    That's DOUBLE proof the MLMs are bad, and you are only perpetuating that "stigma". Even though I wouldn't use the word "stigma", I would say "accurate assessment that MLMs are a sure ticket to failure".

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Do you mean an MLM like the one you are promoting your affiliate link for?

      That's DOUBLE proof the MLMs are bad, and you are only perpetuating that "stigma". Even though I wouldn't use the word "stigma", I would say "accurate assessment that MLMs are a sure ticket to failure".

      All the best,
      Michael
      No in my signature is the company I use for Marketing, in which they give me about every tool to use I would ever need, and it's still getting better. As my my website, well I am an affilate of Amazon to sell smartphonese, and it does ok.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

        No in my signature is the company I use for Marketing, in which they give me about every tool to use I would ever need, and it's still getting better. As my my website, well I am an affilate of Amazon to sell smartphonese, and it does ok.
        That's fine.

        But, if I were to sign up for them, YOU would get credit.

        Read the rules of THIS forum.

        Affiliate links are NOT allowed.

        That's what you have, no matter what you "use" it for.

        And it IS an MLM. It took me about 30 seconds of digging to see their MLM structure. Here is one direct quote form the site...

        An an illustration, if you signed up 3 who signed up 3 and they signed up 3, your monthly income would equal $480/month pretty fast!
        I'd call that MLM, wouldn't you?

        And, for the record, ALL of the typical MLM nonsense is there.

        So, call it what you will, but I stand by my original post.

        You may think you're the first person who has ever been clever enough to use this ruse to get people to sign up under you, but we've all seen it tons of times before.

        Also, this isn't anything personal. It's aimed at MLM in general.

        ~Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Vincenzo Oliva
    I don't believe that all major MLM offers are scams, most are not. The problem lies in the matrix or whatever they may call it. First of all people rarely buy health products unless they already have a problem to address. It's difficult to market good health.
    So with most MLM companies the only way to make money is to recruit others to do the same, so in effect you are selling a dream not a product. And the dream they sell is often the "all the time in the world to spend with your family living off the RESIDUAL income." But most get shattered when their friends and family reject them and they quit in no time. So that "you get only 2 and they get their 2" and so on myth never materializes.

    The ones who succeed in MLM are the ones selling the shovels to the gold diggers.
    You can succeed at MLM but you absolutely need to be:

    1-A SuperDuper Salesperson (ha ha it really is sales)
    2- An Awesome teacher/trainer.
    3- A superb motivator.

    Missing one of those it ain't gonna work.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      No in my signature is the company I use for Marketing, in which they give me about every tool to use I would ever need, and it's still getting better.
      Unless you are saying that you registered veretekk.com - you can't use it in your signature.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Unless you are saying that you registered veretekk.com - you can't use it in your signature.
        ^
        Yep ... that. Better remove it before a mod finds it ... Read the forum sig file rules if in doubt.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          ^
          Yep ... that. Better remove it before a mod finds it ... Read the forum sig file rules if in doubt.
          He's been warned three times.

          We're not idiots, and that's not quite an all-inclusive "we're".

          ~M~
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  • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
    Alright Alright, I am loving these awnsers now let me ask you this? So if a MLM was very reputable and is backed by the Federal Trade Commission, does this make a difference? I am pretty sure the FTC wouldn't back a scam?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

      Alright Alright, I am loving these awnsers now let me ask you this? So if a MLM was very reputable and is backed by the Federal Trade Commission, does this make a difference? I am pretty sure the FTC wouldn't back a scam?
      Some people go for MLM... many do not and I don't care how reputable you say they are or who backs them, I'm not interested and many others here aren't either.

      It's fairly obvious with the sig that you had, that it was an attempt to "win us over" on the reputable MLM model with this entire discussion. We've seen it a million times. You're treading on dangerous ground ... just borderline spam right now.

      You'd do better to just join in discussions and participate in the forum and do your selling where it belongs ... in WSOs and Classifieds, like the rest of us do.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Some people go for MLM... many do not and I don't care how reputable you say they are or who backs them, I'm not interested and many others here aren't either.

        It's fairly obvious with the sig that you had, that it was an attempt to "win us over" on the reputable MLM model with this entire discussion. We've seen it a million times. You're treading on dangerous ground ... just borderline spam right now.

        You'd do better to just join in discussions and participate in the forum and do your selling where it belongs ... in WSOs and Classifieds, like the rest of us do.
        Hi Suzanne,

        You are clearly in a more charitable mood than I am.



        ~M~
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Murphy
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Hi Suzanne,

          You are clearly in a more charitable mood than I am.



          ~M~
          Must be that cig shes smoking!
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        The "funny" thing is that Veretekk isn't actually an MLM company. It's one of the comparatively few Network Marketing companies that isn't MLM. But there's a very widespread misapprehension that "network marketing" and "multi-level marketing" are two different, interchangeable terms for the same thing (and that's believed even by some people themselves involved in MLM companies), and many people don't appreciate the difference.
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        • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          The "funny" thing is that Veretekk isn't actually an MLM company. It's one of the comparatively few Network Marketing companies that isn't MLM. But there's a very widespread misapprehension that "network marketing" and "multi-level marketing" are two different, interchangeable terms for the same thing (and that's believed even by some people themselves involved in MLM companies), and many people don't appreciate the difference.
          Thankkkkkkkk YOU ALEXA!

          At least somebody knows something around here! It's one of the few companies that asks to join a list before you get fu**ing spammed. As far as I know of? Aweber, and Veretekk are the few to do this!
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          • Profile picture of the author Gary King
            Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

            Thankkkkkkkk YOU ALEXA!

            At least somebody knows something around here!

            Welcome to the forum Darunner - nice job grabbing some attention with your early posts.

            FWIW, you may not make too many friends quickly based upon:
            • Low post count (combined with)
            • Controversial post with an apparent affiliate link (read: one you would get paid for if someone clicked it and it's not your product)
            • Implying that the majority of people around here don't know anything (see your quote above.)

            Hey listen, I'm not entering the MLM debate. You guys can spend lifetimes arguing if it's good/legal/money making/honest, etc., but I'm going to be over here making money instead.


            Alexa's a gold mine of information, so props to you for recognizing that.

            That said, it's just some friendly advice - take it or leave it - you're welcome to your opinion, but based on the bullets above, you may want to check it a little. I'm not the final stop here, so feel free to ignore my friendly suggestion, but you'll go much further here if you follow it IMHO.

            ...Especially the part where you imply that only a few people here no anything.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              At least somebody knows something around here!
              Good thing - as you called it "mlm" yourself.

              Network Marketing and MLM have come to be seen as interchangeable even through there are somewhat different payout strategies.

              Both want you to upgrade - both depend on having people signing up under you and upgrading themselves. I made money in mlm years ago so I do understand how it works.

              Then I found I could earn more - easier - just doing my own things online. If it's what you want to do, go for it. Just be cautious about trying to promote it here.

              kay
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              • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Good thing - as you called it "mlm" yourself.

                Network Marketing and MLM have come to be seen as interchangeable even through there are somewhat different payout strategies.

                Both want you to upgrade - both depend on having people signing up under you and upgrading themselves. I made money in mlm years ago so I do understand how it works.

                Then I found I could earn more - easier - just doing my own things online. If it's what you want to do, go for it. Just be cautious about trying to promote it here.

                kay
                i appreciate your sincerity!
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            • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
              Originally Posted by Gary King View Post

              Welcome to the forum Darunner - nice job grabbing some attention with your early posts.

              FWIW, you may not make too many friends quickly based upon:
              • Low post count (combined with)
              • Controversial post with an apparent affiliate link (read: one you would get paid for if someone clicked it and it's not your product)
              • Implying that the majority of people around here don't know anything (see your quote above.)
              Hey listen, I'm not entering the MLM debate. You guys can spend lifetimes arguing if it's good/legal/money making/honest, etc., but I'm going to be over here making money instead.


              Alexa's a gold mine of information, so props to you for recognizing that.

              That said, it's just some friendly advice - take it or leave it - you're welcome to your opinion, but based on the bullets above, you may want to check it a little. I'm not the final stop here, so feel free to ignore my friendly suggestion, but you'll go much further here if you follow it IMHO.

              ...Especially the part where you imply that only a few people here no anything.
              Well gary I will say I am not here to make friends, just learn new things, and try new ideas, programs, but I do appreciate your post here, I will keep that in mind!
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              • Profile picture of the author Gary King
                Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

                Well gary I will say I am not here to make friends, just learn new things, and try new ideas, programs, but I do appreciate your post here, I will keep that in mind!
                No skin off of my nose...

                You may find that the "taking" runs out quickly without the "giving".

                This is a community. You may find that the willingness to share by people here will fade quickly with a take-only perspective.

                I'm not lecturing, just making an observation.

                All success,

                Gary
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                • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
                  Originally Posted by Gary King View Post

                  No skin off of my nose...

                  You may find that the "taking" runs out quickly without the "giving".

                  This is a community. You may find that the willingness to share by people here will fade quickly with a take-only perspective.

                  I'm not lecturing, just making an observation.

                  All success,

                  Gary
                  Gary

                  I don't have a problem giving. Is why as a newer peson in WSO that I have a few thanks? Cause I shared some information on IM that I have gone through to others. Is like, if people want to be my friend, cool, no problems, but my intent was not coming here to find friends. Sure, I will share things, tricks, programs, that I know about.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
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                • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
                  Over the years, I've seen a lot of MLM companies come and go. The ones that seemed to collapse the fastest were, as someone else here has noted, ones that had no empathy or feeling for their customers/distributors, but rather used greed as their benchmark. And I suppose it is true (though I've not seen it myself), that some distributors make money off the tools and sales materials.

                  One thing I've noticed lately is that the people who become involved in an MLM in the nutrition or health niche do so first because of the perceived health benefits, and only secondly to earn income. I am a consumer of several of these products, and am only a distributor to save money on the product. I don't even try to earn money. But I sure like the benefits of the products, even though they're too darn expensive. Which of course is my real gripe - the cost. On the other hand, MLM is frequently the only way a company can compete in the nutrition arena, as the big guns seem to control it rather thoroughly.

                  These are only my own thoughts and experiences. That and $1.08 can get you something from McDonald's dollar menu here in sunny CA.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TheWealthSquad
                    Robert - Glad I didn't offend you

                    I think we will have to agree to disagree about all businesses being MLMs.

                    For example - a plumber who works for himself and by himself. How does he qualify as an MLM?

                    I do agree that some large businesses are actually MLMs without giving the outward appearance of it.

                    Just like social security is actually a pyramid scheme that if you and I started, we would be in jail. Since the guvment runs it, its ok.

                    I think you can get a much better business education by working an unpaid internship with a small business owner rather than being in an MLM. Find a local one that is successful and volunteer to work with them if he will train you and teach you.

                    You will earn about as much money as you do in an typical MLM and learn far more.

                    Peace
                    Scott
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                    • Profile picture of the author Robert Oliver
                      Very Hot month for MLM, Network marketing recruiting.

                      They are taught this in every company. I know, I did

                      this for years. These post show up in this forum as spam

                      a lot during the main recruiting months as that is what is taught.

                      I know people who make $500,000 and more from MLM. I also

                      know they got there littering the highway with wounded & dead

                      bodies. They average IBO in Amway last I looked was making

                      like $62 a month. The last time I looked at another MLM I did

                      the average IBO made $86 a month. This type income will hardly

                      get you the nice Rolls Royce, the beachfront condo, and a butler

                      to serve you drinks. They sell the dream and work on people's

                      emotions to keep them active. After 3-4 months they are gone

                      with shattered dreams, an empty pocket book, and hate their

                      friends and family for getting them into this mess.

                      Robert Oliver
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                      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                        Originally Posted by Robert Oliver View Post

                        Very Hot month for MLM, Network marketing recruiting.

                        They are taught this in every company. I know, I did

                        this for years. These post show up in this forum as spam

                        a lot during the main recruiting months as that is what is taught.

                        I know people who make $500,000 and more from MLM. I also

                        know they got there littering the highway with wounded & dead

                        bodies. They average IBO in Amway last I looked was making

                        like $62 a month. The last time I looked at another MLM I did

                        the average IBO made $86 a month. This type income will hardly

                        get you the nice Rolls Royce, the beachfront condo, and a butler

                        to serve you drinks. They sell the dream and work on people's

                        emotions to keep them active. After 3-4 months they are gone

                        with shattered dreams, an empty pocket book, and hate their

                        friends and family for getting them into this mess.

                        Robert Oliver
                        And that's only for "active" IBOs as defined by the company. "Active" doesn't include buying books, CDs and seminars.

                        Figure in those IBOs and their business expenses, and it would be a negative number. More accurate, but negative.

                        All the best,
                        Michael
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                        • Profile picture of the author Robert Oliver
                          Michael,

                          Handing out tapes and books and never saw them again.

                          I got hooked for awhile on the old residual income

                          dream, until I figured it all out.

                          Overpriced products that do not cure anything and can be

                          bought at your local store for half the price. That should tell

                          people something.

                          Go look at the policy and procedures for the company before

                          you invest your time and money. The most overlooked step

                          before you join. You will run like hell if you do this one step.

                          Robert Oliver
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                          • Profile picture of the author ASCW
                            If the person above you gets paid to recruit you. And you get paid to recruit others below you. And then they get paid to recruit others.... When does it end? Because their is a very finite amount of people you have access too. The guy in the bottom tier is always the sucker. And there will always be a guy in the bottom tier, and it is your goal to put someone there so you can get out. The whole design is predatory.
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                            • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
                              Originally Posted by ASCW View Post

                              If the person above you gets paid to recruit you. And you get paid to recruit others below you. And then they get paid to recruit others.... When does it end? Because their is a very finite amount of people you have access too. The guy in the bottom tier is always the sucker. And there will always be a guy in the bottom tier, and it is your goal to put someone there so you can get out. The whole design is predatory.
                              While I do not disagree with you regarding the predatory nature of MLM, it is not true that one gets paid to recruit. That would be specifically illegal, and no MLM that I've seen in even remotely recent times would attempt that.
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                            • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
                              Ok Guys...my last post on this topic...though a great discussion with lots of opinions.

                              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                              And that's only for "active" IBOs as defined by the company. "Active" doesn't include buying books, CDs and seminars.

                              Figure in those IBOs and their business expenses, and it would be a negative number. More accurate, but negative.

                              All the best,
                              Michael
                              Michael.. Making a living from books, tapes and rallys/seminars, is not a philosphy that i condone or agree with. No more than 7% of someones gross income in an MLM should come from this platform.

                              However, Look at all the INFORMATIONAL products pumped out every day in the IM world for 500, 1k, 2k and Some that i have recently seen for 10k. I don't agree with this model either. Look at the incredible amount of Valueless WSO's hitting WF over the last 6 months. People have to use good judment.

                              Everything in business costs money period, either you pay to get educated, or you pay because your not. Either way, knoweldge is the key to Money.

                              Originally Posted by Robert Oliver View Post

                              Michael,

                              Handing out tapes and books and never saw them again.

                              I got hooked for awhile on the old residual income

                              dream, until I figured it all out.

                              Overpriced products that do not cure anything and can be

                              bought at your local store for half the price. That should tell

                              people something.

                              Go look at the policy and procedures for the company before

                              you invest your time and money. The most overlooked step

                              before you join. You will run like hell if you do this one step.

                              Robert Oliver
                              Robert, i can agree with some of what you have to say here no doubt. My only recomendation to anyone thinking of an MLM...
                              1- Learn Compensation plans First, so you know how a particular company pays.
                              2- Get a good understanding of the various Models.
                              3- Choose a company and leader within that company that you would want to work with.
                              4- Be willing to make a Minimum of a 1 year committment. Whether its 5 hrs a week or 50 hrs a week it doesnt matter. Consistency is key.
                              5- Build a viable business around generating product leads. Lead with the product not the dream. If the product produces results Affilliates or IBO's will follow. If the product sucks they don't.

                              Lastly, just like anything out there, i dont care what industry or hobby it is, there is always a learning curve of education of some kind. Education pays. Most people will and don't work hard enough to be successful at any business, thats why guys like us can EMPLOY them to work for us, and in my book thats OK. I don't want to mow my lawn, dry clean my clothes, Cook my steak or tailor my clothes. The world needs all kinds to go around. If business as a rule was easy, everyone would do it, and we would have no employees.

                              Sorry to hear your taste for MLM was sour, but thank goodness you found the WF and the IM community, hopefully that is working successfully for you.

                              Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                              Of course CEOs and owners earn more than laborers. As they should. Risk vs. reward. Just because there is corporate hierarchy regarding power and pay scale doesn't make it multi level marketing.

                              I'm really at a loss for how anyone can draw a comparison unless they don't really understand how MLM works.

                              Look, I'm not trying to condemn all MLMs like some people may choose to do. I'm just pointing out the absurdity in equating MLM to any and all businesses.

                              It's an apples to oranges comparison. One that I assume is perpetuated from the top of MLM organizations in order to try to defuse skepticism. One that also relies on those so-called "grunts" to blissfully accept a cleverly crafted simile designed to prey on their emotions.
                              Absurdity is being to busy working a job that you dont have the time to become wealthy. The good MLM's work just like any other company, there are good ones and bad ones. Subway has good franchises and bad ones.

                              I suppose, you dont feel Real estate is MLM... you got another thing coming. Take a Company like Coldwell Banker.. National Brand here... This is how it works.

                              100k house is sold, 3% or 3000.00 in commission is paid to said "Agent" before the agent gets there cut... 6% of that 3k goes to the National franchise.. or $180.00 Thats the pyrmid top. Then the broker takes another 10-35% of that depending on your agreement, the national average is 34% which is another $1020.00 now leaving $1800 left for the AGENT.

                              OH YA wait a minute, the agent still has to pay for , Gas, Advertising to Move that particular house, Cell phone, and a few other misceallenous items. Thats another 300-400 bucks. Now leaving our "AGENT" $1400 to $1500 in commission.

                              OH NO..we forgot Taxes, another 30% which now leaves our Agent...and everyone thinks Real Estate is a Prestigious field...$1050.00 which really sucks, cause the buyer or seller of that home, thinks the agent is getting rich off the sale of that home. Its a joke, and with all the agents in the marketplace at the Top of the RE boom 5 years ago, the National average for Real estate agents...>Drum rollllll please... $17,485.00 a year BELOW

                              BELOW BELOW the FRICKEN POVERTY LEVEL....

                              I didnt even throw in, Continuing real estates classes, and other stuff.
                              Theres a Prime example of a FULL BLOWN SCAMMING MLM, only it happens to be a REAL ESTATE company.

                              ALL COMPANYS are MLM's in one way shape or form.
                              Originally Posted by ASCW View Post

                              If the person above you gets paid to recruit you. And you get paid to recruit others below you. And then they get paid to recruit others.... When does it end? Because their is a very finite amount of people you have access too. The guy in the bottom tier is always the sucker. And there will always be a guy in the bottom tier, and it is your goal to put someone there so you can get out. The whole design is predatory.
                              Thats why you must have a company that is product driven... I mean Sheeshhh, how many WSO's can u have on the same OFFLINE MATERIAL, same SEO Material, GOOGLE, when does it end.. there are only so many billions of dollars spent online each year. The whole business system and free economy is PREDATORY if i use your description.

                              And a JOB..is even worse... I dont care if its MLM, Small business, IM , Tech, or whatever... I believe in the Entreprenurial system and Free enterprise. A JOB, stands for one thing and one thing only....

                              JOB = JUST OVER BROKE and SLAVERY
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                              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post


                                ALL COMPANYS are MLM's in one way shape or form.
                                But in your real estate example, those agents aren't paid a % of the comissions earned by other new agents "under" them or in their "downline".

                                I won't disagree with you about compensation structures being top heavy in non-MLM companies. But I still don't consider that to be MLM.
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                                • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
                                  Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                                  But in your real estate example, those agents aren't paid a % of the comissions earned by other new agents "under" them or in their "downline".

                                  I won't disagree with you about compensation structures being top heavy in non-MLM companies. But I still don't consider that to be MLM.
                                  Lance...Keller Williams, Works exactly that way, as u stated above, and is one of the largest MLM companies in the states. Its all good my friend, i do always enjoy good discussions like this one 2nite. May your week, month and rest of the year be highly profitable no matter what it is your working on.

                                  Have an Awesome Night

                                  Robert
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                    Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post

                                    Lance...Keller Williams, Works exactly that way, as u stated above, and is one of the largest MLM companies in the states. Its all good my friend, i do always enjoy good discussions like this one 2nite. May your week, month and rest of the year be highly profitable no matter what it is your working on.

                                    Have an Awesome Night

                                    Robert
                                    Sorry, I'm not familiar with Keller Williams.

                                    Anyway, likewise regarding the discussion. Take care.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by ASCW View Post

                              If the person above you gets paid to recruit you. And you get paid to recruit others below you. And then they get paid to recruit others.... When does it end?
                              In court.

                              Any kind of payment or reward for recruitment/sponsoring per se is illegal, in almost every country in the world: that's one of the comparatively few clear-cut signs of illegality.
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                  • Profile picture of the author zinally
                    One thing I've noticed lately is that the people who become involved in an MLM in the nutrition or health niche do so first because of the perceived health benefits, and only secondly to earn income. I am a consumer of several of these products, and am only a distributor to save money on the product. I don't even try to earn money. But I sure like the benefits of the products, even though they're too darn expensive. Which of course is my real gripe - the cost. On the other hand, MLM is frequently the only way a company can compete in the nutrition arena, as the big guns seem to control it rather thoroughly.
                    True indeed that's why I beleive in sharing if I join MLM company mostly because of the product and earning from membership enrolment is secondary. I normally share the benefit of the product first rather the monetory gain.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          The "funny" thing is that Veretekk isn't actually an MLM company. It's one of the comparatively few Network Marketing companies that isn't MLM. But there's a very widespread misapprehension that "network marketing" and "multi-level marketing" are two different, interchangeable terms for the same thing (and that's believed even by some people themselves involved in MLM companies), and many people don't appreciate the difference.
          Hi Alexa,

          I DO appreciate the difference.

          I just finished reading the compensation plan, and it sure looked like an MLM to me.

          It may also be network marketing, but your attempt at semantics, while well-meaning, is incorrect in this case. If it looks like an MLM, if the same basic compensation charts are used as in MLM, if the focus is on getting sign ups like MLM, if they call it "network marketing" to disguise the fact that it's MLM....then I would call it MLM.

          And that's the other point. While MLM and network marketing are not the same thing, a LOT of MLM companies call what they do "network marketing" to sidestep the stigma mentioned in the OP.

          All the best,
          Michael
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

            It may also be network marketing, but your attempt at semantics, while well-meaning, is incorrect in this case. If it looks like an MLM, if the same basic compensation charts are used as in MLM, if the focus is on getting sign ups like MLM, if they call it "network marketing" to disguise the fact that it's MLM....then I would call it MLM.

            And that's the other point. While MLM and network marketing are not the same thing, a LOT of MLM companies call what they do "network marketing" to sidestep the stigma mentioned in the OP.
            Hi Michael,

            All MLM companies are network marketing companies. By definition. But not all network marketing companies are MLM companies.

            An MLM company is a network marketing company in which the commission payments made on sales of the company's products are "divided between multiple levels" (these are the key words) according to a network of who sponsored whom.

            In some network marketing companies (Liberty League, Avent, LifePath, WMI (maybe), and some others) the commissions are not divided between multiple levels but paid to one person only. Not always the person who made the sale.

            However Veretekk might look, on their website, they're not licensed or registered as an MLM company, and they're not regulated as one.

            Distributors in such companies often themselves fail to appreciate the differences and can sometimes give people the most appalling misinformation. The classic, most often seen example is of a company called Melaleuca (I understand that it's a fairly decent company as these things go, and it certainly seems to have some high quality products), who do what they call "Consumer Direct Marketing", and many of their distributors used to be seen online, in forums and with their own websites, telling people blatantly that "We're not an MLM company" (because that was what they'd been taught to say by their ignorant "uplines"). They were and are, of course, an MLM company - they're licensed, registered and regulated as one, and their compliance department is of course very quick to confirm to anyone asking them that they are an MLM company! To try to cut down on the misrepresentation, the company's now prevented distributors from using the company name online at all without company approval in each and every instance.

            These matters cause a lot of confusion.

            "Direct sales" is another thing again. There are people (usually people in MLM) who will try to maintain that "most direct sales companies are MLM companies". (That's ludicrous nonsense, of course! But it is, nevertheless, true that all network marketing companies are also direct sales companies. ).
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              MLM- Success rate 20% Failure 80%
              Where did those figures come from? Some reputable sites have listed the dropout rate for new signups in mlm to be as high as 98%.

              I have never seen anyone estimate a success rate as high as 20% for mlm or IM, for that matter.

              Doesn't matter - because the only success to worry about is your own. I've known many people who have earned some money with mlm's - but few who earned a full living from it.

              That said, it's not a bad thing for those who are looking for part-time income and have time, patience and good people skills. Especially true if the person doesn't want to spend time learning technical IM stuff or is uneasy about working outside a group atmosphere.

              kay
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        • Profile picture of the author SDenham
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          The "funny" thing is that Veretekk isn't actually an MLM company. It's one of the comparatively few Network Marketing companies that isn't MLM. But there's a very widespread misapprehension that "network marketing" and "multi-level marketing" are two different, interchangeable terms for the same thing (and that's believed even by some people themselves involved in MLM companies), and many people don't appreciate the difference.
          This answer threw me. I must be one of those people. I've always seen MLM and network marketing terms used interchangeably.

          I had sworn off MLM stuff, as well. Then, I saw the company I'm working with, and the service is what I'm excited about, I think I can build a big customer base, not to say I didn't like the pay plan, but I didn't join because of it, I joined it because I see products and services that I think I can sell.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

      Alright Alright, I am loving these awnsers now let me ask you this? So if a MLM was very reputable and is backed by the Federal Trade Commission, does this make a difference? I am pretty sure the FTC wouldn't back a scam?
      You're either FALLING for the same old LIES, which isn't your fault if you don't know the truth. Or...

      You are PURPOSELY spreading those LIES, in which case there is a problem.

      To be fair, I am asuming the former is correct and not the latter.

      Either way, the FTC doesn't "back" any business, that's not what they do. And anybody who tells you they are "backed by the FTC" is being deceitful. The question is why? The answer is to throw people off, to give them a false sense of security.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        You're either FALLING for the same old LIES, which isn't your fault if you don't know the truth. Or...

        You are PURPOSELY spreading those LIES, in which case there is a problem.

        To be fair, I am asuming the former is correct and not the latter.

        Either way, the FTC doesn't "back" any business, that's not what they do. And anybody who tells you they are "backed by the FTC" is being deceitful. The question is why? The answer is to throw people off, to give them a false sense of security.

        All the best,
        Michael
        ahhh Michael, it's all good, because you stand where you stand as do I. But I am 100% sure that when this new system hits any major media, everyone will be joining.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

          ahhh Michael, it's all good, because you stand where you stand as do I. But I am 100% sure that when this new system hits any major media, everyone will be joining.
          LOL

          I used to be like you. Seriously.

          Run the other way, my friend. You are giving control of YOUR future to somebody else. Somebody that doesn't care about you, and is interested in one thing...you can guess what that is.

          I have heard EXACTLY what you just said numerous times about other MLMs.

          I am trying to help you, but if you choose not to take that help, I truly hope you don't lose everything.

          All the best,
          Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author 04real
    This discussion reminds me of a web page I read many, many years ago entitled...

    What's Wrong With Multi-Level Marketing?

    I've never participated in MLM or network marketing myself, though I do know of people who have joined at some point in their lives. A lot of them have since dropped out of the programs they joined but I still know a few who continue to be active participants.

    The only thing I have against the people who tried to market or recruit a network marketing program to me is the way they did it. Some have outright lied about the purpose of the 'meeting' they were inviting me to, and others use the 'material' aspect of money to get me in. I'm not attracted by quick riches, material things or easy money. I'm not saying every network marketer does the same thing but from my encounters the most popular sales pitch was all about how much money one of their associates was making, the new luxury car someone bought, etc. None of them really talked about the merits of the program or the products being offered.


    JP
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      There's something few marketers realize - many top marketers (IMers) are involved in mlm as part of their business. One of the oldest mlm companies has an amazing list of names in it's list of highest earning affiiliates.

      If you have a thriving IM business, huge mailing lists and a name recognized as a "guru-type" in internet marketing, why not advise your followers to join your "network marketing" downline? Instant mlm success that pays off very well for the top marketer and probably for a few placed right below him. (the early invitation list?)

      For someone starting out online, mlm can be a bit of a slog but it isn't that way for everyone.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        There's something few marketers realize - many top marketers (IMers) are involved in mlm as part of their business. One of the oldest mlm companies has an amazing list of names in it's list of highest earning affiiliates.

        If you have a thriving IM business, huge mailing lists and a name recognized as a "guru-type" in internet marketing, why not advise your followers to join your "network marketing" downline? Instant mlm success that pays off very well for the top marketer and probably for a few placed right below him. (the early invitation list?)

        For someone starting out online, mlm can be a bit of a slog but it isn't that way for everyone.

        kay
        Very Very True

        Although I don't have this "status" yet. I hope I achieve this success soon. How are you doing in IM Kay?
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
      Originally Posted by 04real View Post

      This discussion reminds me of a web page I read many, many years ago entitled...

      What's Wrong With Multi-Level Marketing?


      The only thing I have against the people who tried to market or recruit a network marketing program to me is the way they did it. Some have outright lied about the purpose of the 'meeting' they were inviting me to, and others use the 'material' aspect of money to get me in.

      JP
      Hey buddy! Long time no see. Why not come over for dinner tonight?
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  • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
    Jp

    I see your point, and I like your post. And your right, a lot of ppl promote everything else but the product, and their should be some changes that in MLM you must promote the product and not the riches.

    For the people that tried to convince you to their mlm and they lied? I hope these are not your friends!! People want the truth, not suprises!! I know their are alot of different types of Marketing, and that MLM is not for everyone.
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    • Profile picture of the author 04real
      Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

      Jp

      I see your point, and I like your post. And your right, a lot of ppl promote everything else but the product, and their should be some changes that in MLM you must promote the product and not the riches.

      For the people that tried to convince you to their mlm and they lied? I hope these are not your friends!! People want the truth, not suprises!! I know their are alot of different types of Marketing, and that MLM is not for everyone.


      Hahahaha... no, they weren't my friends... or at least not anymore... =) Just kidding.


      JP
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

    I know and heard a lot about MLM's. A ton of people have a stigma that MLM (all) are a scam. So for example lets say that a very good MLM came along, and was made by a long time online business. Maybe a company ranked number 37 on 500 Inc. Magazine?

    My question to you? If you seen a good MLM program? Would you believe it?
    What would it take for you to join?

    Just because a company is ranked number 37 in the world's top 500 companies does not mean that you'll make a good income or an honest income selling their products using some MLM scheme.

    The biggest problems I've seen with MLM schemes are:

    # The distributors make their main income through the sale of tools like tapes, books and seminar tickets. It could even be argued that since these tool sales are sold through their network of distributors that this is a well disguised pyramid system.


    # The training systems are designed to stop any kind of objective analysis of the products, the training system and people's committment and involvment and their real income after expenses.

    The average MLM distributor does not make a profit after the expenses of travel, tools and time. They would be far better off working a few hours at any reasonably paid job.

    In many cases they would be better off working a few extra hours at minimum wage.


    # Most MLM systems are promoting passive income as a reason to become involved and build a large network.

    But the reality of organizing and motivating large groups of people is that there is a HUGE amount of work involved.

    The larger your network of distributors get..all looking to you for leadership...the more work there will be.

    And quite a lot of that work can't be outsourced.

    In other words the passive income with this business model is more myth than reality if you want a stable business.


    # Distributors in MLM are told that it's their business but if you look at the terms of service when you sign up to be a distributor the reality is entirely different.

    You're really bringing in distributorships at your own expense that belong to the parent company.

    You could use the network you build to make profits by selling other products and services but this is against the terms of service for most MLMs so now you risk having your distributorship terminated.

    Ironically selling books, tapes, seminar tickets and other tools into their networks is how a huge percentage of successful MLM distributors make their main incomes.



    Here's an idea that makes more sense.

    Why not build a group of people who get together, are nice to each other and buy products and services that people in the group make and supply themselves.

    You can get the sense of community from belonging to a group...every cent you spend goes back to other group members and everyone will be increasing their income and finding ways to make money out of doing the things they love.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author TheWealthSquad
    I think the biggest stigma MLM companies have is the way they teach you to recruit. The emphasis isn't on being a marketer for your product but finding another person to come in and experience the warmth and glow.

    Having been in a couple of MLM companies over years (I join cause I liked the products not to make money) I always have a problem with the "training" that is given.

    I always ask myself one very important question - Would I use this product without the MLM or network structure in place? I am part of one now because I like the product and use it. Only have one downline (who was put there by my sponsor to motivate me). The product is solid and provides a useful service for me.

    Just like many scammers give IM a bad name, MLM gets a bad name for the behavior of the people involved in it. Your friends are now targets.. oh wait prospects ...to share your new found joy with.

    If they don't see the joy, then find new friends.

    That is the true sadness of MLM.

    Now as for all businesses being MLM - You need to put down the crack pipe. Really. Please.

    CEOs are not the top of a MLM system. People get paid to do a job. To provide a service. They get more because of basic economics.

    Hmmm hopefully I didn't offend any one actually using a crack pipe.

    Ciao
    Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
      Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad View Post

      I think the biggest stigma MLM companies have is the way they teach you to recruit. The emphasis isn't on being a marketer for your product but finding another person to come in and experience the warmth and glow.

      Having been in a couple of MLM companies over years (I join cause I liked the products not to make money) I always have a problem with the "training" that is given.

      I always ask myself one very important question - Would I use this product without the MLM or network structure in place? I am part of one now because I like the product and use it. Only have one downline (who was put there by my sponsor to motivate me). The product is solid and provides a useful service for me.

      Just like many scammers give IM a bad name, MLM gets a bad name for the behavior of the people involved in it. Your friends are now targets.. oh wait prospects ...to share your new found joy with.

      If they don't see the joy, then find new friends.

      That is the true sadness of MLM.

      Now as for all businesses being MLM - You need to put down the crack pipe. Really. Please.

      CEOs are not the top of a MLM system. People get paid to do a job. To provide a service. They get more because of basic economics.

      Hmmm hopefully I didn't offend any one actually using a crack pipe.

      Ciao
      Scott
      Scott,
      good post...disagree though MLM is MLM and all compaines are. One of the biggest
      Real Estate Companies in the states.. Keller Willams, Massive traditional MLM.

      Now.. on recruiting...Contacting friends family and relatives is not a viable business model in any business...they will all fail at some point with no LEADS. So i totally agree with you in regards to training that is given out at most companies, its a retarded crack pipe for sure, and thats where the Stigma and Taint comes in.

      Hopefully down the road.. people will be up front with people letting them know, its a business, and u have to run it like one. Thanks again for sharing you point, i can always appreciate good views.

      Regards,
      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Comparing the organizational chart of a corporation to MLM is absurd.
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        • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          Comparing the organizational chart of a corporation to MLM is absurd.
          Well.......there are some similarities. The people at the top make the most money, and the hard-working grunts in the trenches generate most of the sales.

          I'm rarely as clever as I like to think I am, so please feel free to punch holes in that statement.
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          • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
            Originally Posted by mcmahanusa View Post

            Well.......there are some similarities. The people at the top make the most money, and the hard-working grunts in the trenches generate most of the sales.

            I'm rarely as clever as I like to think I am, so please feel free to punch holes in that statement.
            I agree! If it wasn't for the grunt's work in a corportation, their is no corportation! If their are no grunts in a MLM, their is no MLM!
            It's the same thing!!
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by mcmahanusa View Post

            Well.......there are some similarities. The people at the top make the most money, and the hard-working grunts in the trenches generate most of the sales.

            I'm rarely as clever as I like to think I am, so please feel free to punch holes in that statement.
            There may be similarities, but the differences are great enough to make that a moot point.

            The CEO doesn't make more money based on how many other people are below them. New levels of management don't automatically break off after a certain number of people are hired.

            The lateral and vertical movement structures are completely different. For example, in an MLM you can NEVER be at a higher level than the people who are ahead of you. You may be at a higher compensation level, but they will always collect a % of what you earn, and the sponsorship tree will show them to be on top of you. In a traditional company, in theory, it would be possible for an entey-level person to become the CEO and have the CEO in a lower position.

            A few other differences:

            People can be fired from a company for virtually any reason.

            Not everybody in the company is encouraged to bring more people in to work for the company.

            You have much more freedom working in a traditional company than you ever will in an MLM.

            People in traditional companies are encouraged to think for themselves, it's the exact opposite in MLM.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


              You have much more freedom working in a traditional company than you ever will in an MLM.
              I will say Michael you have some valid points, but as I quote you, I do not agree. IF, your successfull in MLM, how does this have more freedom than a job? I don't know about you, but if i can live life doing what I love and making money at the same time, instead of slaving away for another person/company? How does this constitute as more freedom? However if you unsuccessful, you either work, hustle, etc to make your living.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

                I will say Michael you have some valid points, but as I quote you, I do not agree. IF, your successfull in MLM, how does this have more freedom than a job? I don't know about you, but if i can live life doing what I love and making money at the same time, instead of slaving away for another person/company? How does this constitute as more freedom? However if you unsuccessful, you either work, hustle, etc to make your living.
                No problem. We are talking about different kinds of freedom. I am referring to the freedom to work in a way you see fit to accomplish an assigned task.

                In MLM you have to follow all kinds of rules. Yes, traditional companies have rules, but those usually pertain to conduct, not how you solve problems or increase sales.

                Want to promote a MLM with your own website? STOP!!!! Better check the rules. Chances are you will ONLY be allowed to use the cookie cutter website everybody else has to use, otherwise you could get in trouble.

                That's only one small example.

                By the way, if you really think MLM will give you those freedoms, you may be in for a rude surprise. Your best bet? Stop wasting money on MLM, put it in the bank, collect some interest on the money and then take that dream vacation.

                As you get deeper into MLM you will see what a virtual prison it can be. You WILL be slaving away for the MLM, as opposed to a boss. But you will have less leeway in what you can do when trying to make money with it.

                I hope that helps clarify what I meant by 'freedom'.

                All the best,
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author brendan301
                  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                  No problem. We are talking about different kinds of freedom. I am referring to the freedom to work in a way you see fit to accomplish an assigned task.

                  In MLM you have to follow all kinds of rules. Yes, traditional companies have rules, but those usually pertain to conduct, not how you solve problems or increase sales.

                  Want to promote a MLM with your own website? STOP!!!! Better check the rules. Chances are you will ONLY be allowed to use the cookie cutter website everybody else has to use, otherwise you could get in trouble.

                  That's only one small example.

                  By the way, if you really think MLM will give you those freedoms, you may be in for a rude surprise. Your best bet? Stop wasting money on MLM, put it in the bank, collect some interest on the money and then take that dream vacation.

                  As you get deeper into MLM you will see what a virtual prison it can be. You WILL be slaving away for the MLM, as opposed to a boss. But you will have less leeway in what you can do when trying to make money with it.

                  I hope that helps clarify what I meant by 'freedom'.

                  All the best,
                  Michael
                  this is truer than you know. i was recently told about a pretty cool service. i said to myself "self you could really use that", then i was told about the opportunity to make money. and i told them, i'm not interested. they know i'm a big believer in dan kennedy and direct response marketing. so i looked at it and tried to figure out if i could apply those methodologies - The answer a resounding No. Not just No but HELL NO. the company makes it virtually impossible to market their service to people who may actually need it. they say, sell it to EVERYONE. that's a set up for failure. their rationale is, someone with a bigger budget could come in and snatch up all the business. i say that's BS. the person with the best direct marketing skills will get the business.

                  With that being said I think the majority of recruiting in these MLM "business opportunities" is flat out BS. they only sell you on the income and lifestyle but never tell you about the untold hours you spend on the phone with prospects, contacting people, meeting with people, dragging prospects to "opportunity meetings", attending training to build you "business". to me is all BS and not something I want any parts of. Regardless of who's made or making money, my general opinion of MLMs is negative. Better stated, i HATE the business model. I detest the idea that my income is determined by what my "downline" does. Any honest MLMer will tell you that you've gotta recruit 100 people to find 5 that'll actually do the work.
                  to me it makes more sense to throw up a website, attract 100 visitors and get 5 sales. it takes less work and the returns are exponentially better.

                  I had a cousin try to recruit me into quixtar. His line was, I know you're into the internet, you can set up a website to sell the products. I'm like hold up, you want me to pay you $200 to "join", then another ___ per month for the privilege of selling your products where I'll get a piss ant commission? Are you serious?
                  Dude, I can throw up a website and promote amazon, commission junction (insert affiliate network here) products FOR FREE and make MORE money on better commissions and do all this without having to recruit others. Not only that, I can outsource alot of it. You can't outsource any of your "business". To me it just doesn't make sense, and when someone contacts me to tell me about a new "business" they're in, I cut it short. I don't even wanna hear the pitch. Call me closed minded, but I call it focused.
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            • Profile picture of the author mcmahanusa
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              There may be similarities, but the differences are great enough to make that a moot point.

              The CEO doesn't make more money based on how many other people are below them. New levels of management don't automatically break off after a certain number of people are hired.

              The lateral and vertical movement structures are completely different. For example, in an MLM you can NEVER be at a higher level than the people who are ahead of you. You may be at a higher compensation level, but they will always collect a % of what you earn, and the sponsorship tree will show them to be on top of you. In a traditional company, in theory, it would be possible for an entey-level person to become the CEO and have the CEO in a lower position.

              A few other differences:

              People can be fired from a company for virtually any reason.

              Not everybody in the company is encouraged to bring more people in to work for the company.

              You have much more freedom working in a traditional company than you ever will in an MLM.

              People in traditional companies are encouraged to think for themselves, it's the exact opposite in MLM.

              All the best,
              Michael
              Michael,

              I agree with just about everything you've said, except for this: I have seen very few, if any "traditional" companies which allowed much in the way of freedom. While a very small number of companies do reward original thinking, most companies do not. Original thinking is, in many companies, discouraged. In most companies, the Peter Principal is alive and well; many people are promoted to level above their level of competence.

              I have seen countless instances where someone in a supervisory position would not only discourage independent thought and action, the offending employee frequently would be punished or even terminated. The larger the company, the more this tends to be so. Ideas and innovations (rare at best) must come from the top.

              Having said that, the companies that encourage and reward original thinking and action have a tendency to have better profit margins, happier, more productive employees, and less waste.
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        • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          Comparing the organizational chart of a corporation to MLM is absurd.
          Why is it absurd? Cuz it's the truth?
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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Originally Posted by mcmahanusa View Post

            Well.......there are some similarities. The people at the top make the most money, and the hard-working grunts in the trenches generate most of the sales.

            I'm rarely as clever as I like to think I am, so please feel free to punch holes in that statement.
            Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

            Why is it absurd? Cuz it's the truth?
            Of course CEOs and owners earn more than laborers. As they should. Risk vs. reward. Just because there is corporate hierarchy regarding power and pay scale doesn't make it multi level marketing.

            I'm really at a loss for how anyone can draw a comparison unless they don't really understand how MLM works.

            Look, I'm not trying to condemn all MLMs like some people may choose to do. I'm just pointing out the absurdity in equating MLM to any and all businesses.

            It's an apples to oranges comparison. One that I assume is perpetuated from the top of MLM organizations in order to try to defuse skepticism. One that also relies on those so-called "grunts" to blissfully accept a cleverly crafted simile that is designed to prey on their emotions.
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          • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
            Originally Posted by Darunner14 View Post

            Comparing the organizational chart of a corporation to MLM is absurd.

            Why is it absurd? Cuz it's the truth?

            In a corporation the employees at the "bottom" get paid an income.

            Usually a regular income where they're paid by the hour or have some kind of measurable pay rate for the hours of work they put in.

            Also they're not required to cover what are obviously company costs like the cost of company promotional literature etc etc.

            In an MLM the average distributor is making a loss after you factor in the cost of tools and other expenses.

            I'm not a fan of the corporate model either but at least they their employees make more money than it costs them to turn up to work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
    Ok, so I agree with Brash and ThewealthSquad. The way I see it, if I invision a company it's shaped like a pyramid, as you have your ground workers, your managers, you excuctives, and your CEO. But, they all have jobs to do. Now tell me, who makes the most money? The groundworkers? or the CEO? If it wasn't for the ground workers in ANY company, their would be no CEO!!
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    And friends being your targets... I understand this, however, think about it... the most promising contacts you have for anything be it MLM, fundraising, religion, politics, ANYTHING is your warm market.. your sphere of influence.

    Your warm market is the FIRST place you turn for most anything. (that's why listbuilding is so effective!)

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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  • Profile picture of the author satang
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by satang View Post

      Hey thanks for the tips..
      Most people spewing one liners to boost post count don't copy and paste the exact same comment in multiple threads. You're on a slippery slope.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Having been in the MLM business for more than 30 years,
    and having enjoyed the kind of success with that business
    model that is the current subject of many people's dreams
    all I can say is there is a lot of misinformation and downright
    incorrect thinking in this thread... from both proponents and
    opponents.

    I've debated this topic on this forum more times than I care
    to remember so I'm just going to mosey on down the road now...

    If you need some serious answers on the right way to do MLM
    let me know. I'm always happy to help those who are serious
    about developing a real business.

    Tsnyder
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    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      Having been in the MLM business for more than 30 years,
      and having enjoyed the kind of success with that business
      model that is the current subject of many people's dreams
      all I can say is there is a lot of misinformation and downright
      incorrect thinking in this thread... from both proponents and
      opponents.

      I've debated this topic on this forum more times than I care
      to remember so I'm just going to mosey on down the road now...

      If you need some serious answers on the right way to do MLM
      let me know. I'm always happy to help those who are serious
      about developing a real business.

      Tsnyder
      Hi T,

      I know we have not seen eye-to-eye on this issue very often. However, that doesn't change the fact that you are a class act, all the way.

      Perhaps I, too, will learn to bow out gracefully from these threads a bit more often.

      All the best,
      Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      In so many ways, it's just a different way to earn online. It's not the walk in the park and watch your downline grow that some believe - but some believe a mailing list is auto-money, too.

      I had training sites, passed on leads and upgrades to my downline members, held help sessions, etc in mlm - and it's the same team-building, trust-building methods you use in IM.

      For me, four compensation revamps in 3 years led me to disconnect but I know personally several people who have earned a living in mlm for many years and love what they do.

      No method is ever all wrong or all right - but with anything you do, you need to understand what you are getting into and develop a plan to make it work. That is reality for mlm, IM ...and almost everything else you do in life.

      kay
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    • Profile picture of the author kevin jackson
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      Having been in the MLM business for more than 30 years,
      and having enjoyed the kind of success with that business
      model that is the current subject of many people's dreams
      all I can say is there is a lot of misinformation and downright
      incorrect thinking in this thread... from both proponents and
      opponents.

      I've debated this topic on this forum more times than I care
      to remember so I'm just going to mosey on down the road now...

      If you need some serious answers on the right way to do MLM
      let me know. I'm always happy to help those who are serious
      about developing a real business.

      Tsnyder
      Wow! Someone finally brought some serious real business world clarity beyond the theories, philosophies and emotional opinions to this subject. The Warrior forum is primarily an IM forum and has been a great online business resource for over a decade. I have noticed many similar responses from this forum, other IM forums and from most people in general for many years.

      The successful and experienced network marketers in 2010 who have been around for decades know not to jump head first into this ancient debate. It is usually fruitless for the die hard opponents to this business model to be convinced otherwise. This can get about as heated as a political debate between liberals and conservatives. We have heard every anti-mlm argument in the book and that's fine.

      There will always be get rich quick suckers born every minute in mlm, mail order and in IM as well. All of the above are so low cost to start that they attract the hucksters and the sheep for slaughtering. That fact does not doom either of those industries to automatic failure as long as the person treats a $200 business from home the same as he would any $100K franchise or brick and mortar business.

      Thanks for adding a small dose of real business perspective to the conversation. I guess Donald Trump, Fran Tarkenton and Robert Kiyosaki must be either complete idiots or rich hucksters for endorsing this 'scam' of a business model... just my two pennies.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by kevin jackson View Post

        I guess Donald Trump, Fran Tarkenton and Robert Kiyosaki must be either complete idiots or rich hucksters for endorsing this 'scam' of a business model... just my two pennies.
        I'm not working in MLM any more (I did so for less than a year, and was only 18 at the time), but I have to say that if I still were, I honestly wouldn't regard either Donald Trump or Robert Kiyosaki as particularly favourable endorsements of the business model. And I've never heard of the other person.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by kevin jackson View Post

        Wow! Someone finally brought some serious real business world clarity beyond the theories, philosophies and emotional opinions to this subject. The Warrior forum is primarily an IM forum and has been a great online business resource for over a decade. I have noticed many similar responses from this forum, other IM forums and from most people in general for many years.
        First, let me say everything I say on the subject is based on EXPERIENCE. It isn't theory or philosophy. It may be emotional, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. I wasw involved in MLM for several years and did fairly well with it. BUT once I saw what was really going on behind the scenes, there was NO WAY my conscience would let me stay in. I like to earn money, but not at the expense of losing my soul.

        The successful and experienced network marketers in 2010 who have been around for decades know not to jump head first into this ancient debate. It is usually fruitless for the die hard opponents to this business model to be convinced otherwise. This can get about as heated as a political debate between liberals and conservatives. We have heard every anti-mlm argument in the book and that's fine.
        That may be true, but after I bowed out of MLM, I decided I would do what I could to spread the truth about it. It's not easy because the pro-MLM truly doesn't get it. They use the same lines I heard years ago. So, it's not an anti-MLM "argument" it's stating the facts from the other side of the issue.

        There will always be get rich quick suckers born every minute in mlm, mail order and in IM as well. All of the above are so low cost to start that they attract the hucksters and the sheep for slaughtering. That fact does not doom either of those industries to automatic failure as long as the person treats a $200 business from home the same as he would any $100K franchise or brick and mortar business.
        That's one of the big lies about MLM.You can treat it like a "real business", give it your all, work 80 hours a week, and have nothing to show for it unless you happen to be in on selling the books, CDs and seminars - that's where the real money in MLM comes from.

        Thanks for adding a small dose of real business perspective to the conversation. I guess Donald Trump, Fran Tarkenton and Robert Kiyosaki must be either complete idiots or rich hucksters for endorsing this 'scam' of a business model... just my two pennies.
        LOL. Trying to use famous people to "prove" anything is faulty logic. And, yes, I would say ALL 3 of them are hucksters when it comes to their MLM. In fact, I lost a lot of respect for Trump when he teamed up with Kiyosaki. Robert Kiyosaki is one of the WORST hucksters out there. Just because he sold millions of books doesn't make him right. I don't think they are complete idiots, so, based on your "either/or" statement, they are indeed hucksters.

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author ChrisCree
    The stigma with MLM is all about poor marketing and business training provided for the overwhelming majority of the reps in the industry and the resulting inept ways those reps go about their business.

    I'm not an MLM'er (or network marketer - those terms are interchangeable in my mind.) My wife, however, has been in the industry for more than a decade and does quite well as a rep for a company. Like Tsnyder above (the MLM industry needs more class acts like you, sir!) she doesn't repel folks because she doesn't make inept marketing come ons or, as is the case far too often, downright misleading approaches. Several times she's had people reach out to her (both customers and reps) and say that they've heard about the company she represents somewhere else and want to get started with her.

    That's because she puts a ton of effort into getting to know people, helping them wherever she can, and deservedly earning their trust.

    People who have real business skills can do quite well in a good network marketing company. That's because the rest of us have to do the same thing to gain and keep our customers in our businesses.

    If I tried to sell my consulting services to all my friends every time I saw them it wouldn't take long before my friends would cringe when they saw me coming. That MLM'ers are taught to promote their business that way is, I think, a huge part of the stigma the industry has.

    Another issue is that, lacking business skills, many MLM'ers spend way too much money going to every single event hosted by their company. If I let my travel budget get that far out of whack with my revenue my business would go broke!

    Then there's the control issues noted above in this thread. It's rare to find a network marketing company that will allow their reps to market effectively online. And if you violate their Terms they can yank your distributorship in a heartbeat. I know people who have lost 5 figure monthly incomes this way.

    The bottom line, in most cases, reps are effectively more like autonomous salespeople than independent business owners. The thing is, there is nothing wrong with that.

    For those willing to color inside the lines and able to learn the business skills to market effectively in a non-slimy way it is a lucrative and proven way to make a very comfortable living.

    For the rest, not so much.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheWealthSquad
    Alexa - Fran Tarkenton is a former football QB who has probably been quit from playing longer than you have been alive

    And I agree that Trump and Kiyosaki would NOT make me think highly of a business model. If anything it would probably cause me to look very closely at it to see the "catch".
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  • Profile picture of the author dremora
    The guys on the top of the pyramid make all the money. The little people at the bottom are screwed. That's how it works... If you get in early and sign up a load of people, you make money. The more levels down, the worse it gets. After a certain number of levels, you'll have to sign up more people under you than the world population to get anywhere.

    But the biggest pyramid scam ever is right there and no one sees it. It's called a job. The executives on the top get the million dollar salary and bonuses, the little people get nothing. It's far worse than any MLM, at least you aren't locked up all day and don't have to deal with bosses/ office politics!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      But the biggest pyramid scam ever is right there and no one sees it. It's called a job. The executives on the top get the million dollar salary and bonuses, the little people get nothing. It's far worse than any MLM, at least you aren't locked up all day and don't have to deal with bosses/ office politics!
      I've burned out on IMers who so rudely put down people who have jobs. So often those who complain (and I don't mean specificially anyone in this thread) are the same people who complain "my friends and family don't respect what I do". Respect flows both ways.

      You'd be upset if you had an accident and there weren't any nurses working their jobs, wouldn't you? Or no one to serve you in a restaurant...or fix your car...or sort your mail...or....handle your online customer service issues, hosting, etc.

      We need to get past the knee jerk reaction that we, as IMers, are somehow superior to people who choose to work jobs. We aren't - we are doing the work we want to do. It doesn't make us better than anyone else.

      I work online at home. My two grown sons both have professional jobs and no interest in working online. Both started at the bottom of the ladder and worked their way to where they are now. They both earn into six figures which is more than 95% of the people here are earning. Both love what they do and are good at it. They aren't "locked up" - they get along fine with those above and below them at work.

      Most of my friends have jobs. If you are working a menial job you hate, of course you don't like what you do. If you are butting your head against the IM wall and not making money, you probably don't like that either.

      By all means, be proud of what you do - whether it's IM, MLM or a job. But have respect for the work other people do, too.

      sorry, rant over....

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I've burned out on IMers who so rudely put down people who have jobs. So often those who complain (and I don't mean specificially anyone in this thread) are the same people who complain "my friends and family don't respect what I do". Respect flows both ways.

        You'd be upset if you had an accident and there weren't any nurses working their jobs, wouldn't you? Or no one to serve you in a restaurant...or fix your car...or sort your mail...or....handle your online customer service issues, hosting, etc.

        We need to get past the knee jerk reaction that we, as IMers, are somehow superior to people who choose to work jobs. We aren't - we are doing the work we want to do. It doesn't make us better than anyone else.

        I work online at home. My two grown sons both have professional jobs and no interest in working online. Both started at the bottom of the ladder and worked their way to where they are now. They both earn into six figures which is more than 95% of the people here are earning. Both love what they do and are good at it. They aren't "locked up" - they get along fine with those above and below them at work.

        Most of my friends have jobs. If you are working a menial job you hate, of course you don't like what you do. If you are butting your head against the IM wall and not making money, you probably don't like that either.

        By all means, be proud of what you do - whether it's IM, MLM or a job. But have respect for the work other people do, too.

        sorry, rant over....

        kay
        I agree 100% with you. Yeah I hate my job. But I do serve a purpose. If nobody worked, nothing would happen. No food, no shelter, back to the Native American days, hunt/fish and gather.
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      • Profile picture of the author kevin jackson
        I used to think 9 to 5 jobs and the corporate world was a world for chumps too but I learned to revise my thinking. I began to realize that some people in this world will love their jobs, and some won't or can't survive in the self employed entrepreneurial world.

        When you begin to look at the big entrepreneurial picture or even just carving out your small comfortable little home business niche, you begin to see that some will be on the right side of the cash register and some will be on the left side of the cash register. I mean where would millionaire entrepreneurs be without millions of customers, workers or employees? Somebody has to be on the paying side of the cash register and someone has to occupy the employee workforce.

        The same thing applies for the successful IMers and the professional network marketers. The old sales and mlm phrase applies, "Some will, some won't, so what!" It's kind of a live and let live philosophy.
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  • Profile picture of the author provitall
    The problem with almost all MLM programs is that there is no natural market for their products. I deal with the 130 million pet owners. If you want to keep selling $40 bottles of the latest "miracle" berry juice, "diet" pills that don't work, or overpriced supplements, you have to recruit people who will be forced to order that cr*p on autoship every month, just so you can make a commission on what they consume. I am a full time affiliate marketer who joined a MLM because it sells the best pet foods available and I didn't even know the pet food we had been buying was through a network marketing company. I signed up just to be able to market their products because the pet care industry is $40 billion a year big and I had no other access to products like the ones they have. So I started promoting their products as if it was an affiliate program. I never try to recruit anyone and I never bother people who order to reorder. The products are so good that I have over a 90% retention rate among my customers. It's been 3 years now and I have over 2000 regular customers that I got by using the same techniques that I use for my affiliate products. The difference is that this isn't a CPA deal, they are my customers forever and I get commissions forever. I never have any contact with them and I'm only aware of them because when I wake up I see all the shipment notices in my email that go out in the middle of the night. I do have customers writing to me asking me if they can sign up and join the MLM and all I do is send them a sign up link. If they do sign up all I do is give them free internet marketing training links. If I had to recruit anyone by talking to anyone or had to chase people down to buy anything, I would never do it. As it is, I'm making huge money and my customer base just keeps growing and growing because of that retention rate. I don't think it works like that with berry juice MLMs
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    • Profile picture of the author JennSpencerIM
      Originally Posted by provitall View Post

      The problem with almost all MLM programs is that there is no natural market for their products. I deal with the 130 million pet owners. If you want to keep selling $40 bottles of the latest "miracle" berry juice, "diet" pills that don't work, or overpriced supplements, you have to recruit people who will be forced to order that cr*p on autoship every month, just so you can make a commission on what they consume. I am a full time affiliate marketer who joined a MLM because it sells the best pet foods available and I didn't even know the pet food we had been buying was through a network marketing company. I signed up just to be able to market their products because the pet care industry is $40 billion a year big and I had no other access to products like the ones they have. So I started promoting their products as if it was an affiliate program. I never try to recruit anyone and I never bother people who order to reorder. The products are so good that I have over a 90% retention rate among my customers. It's been 3 years now and I have over 2000 regular customers that I got by using the same techniques that I use for my affiliate products. The difference is that this isn't a CPA deal, they are my customers forever and I get commissions forever. I never have any contact with them and I'm only aware of them because when I wake up I see all the shipment notices in my email that go out in the middle of the night. I do have customers writing to me asking me if they can sign up and join the MLM and all I do is send them a sign up link. If they do sign up all I do is give them free internet marketing training links. If I had to recruit anyone by talking to anyone or had to chase people down to buy anything, I would never do it. As it is, I'm making huge money and my customer base just keeps growing and growing because of that retention rate. I don't think it works like that with berry juice MLMs

      Sorry but this post of yours smells like MLM baloney...and I'm sure I'm not the only one because every MLM company apparently teaches you to say the same silly things!
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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by JennSpencerIM View Post

        Sorry but this post of yours smells like MLM baloney...and I'm sure I'm not the only one because every MLM company apparently teaches you to say the same silly things!
        What's silly about selling products?

        Tsnyder
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      • Profile picture of the author provitall
        Originally Posted by JennSpencerIM View Post

        Sorry but this post of yours smells like MLM baloney...and I'm sure I'm not the only one because every MLM company apparently teaches you to say the same silly things!

        Actually most MLMs teach you to recruit, recruit and recruit, and I never make any effort to recruit. I also hate the MLM business model and have never paid any attention to what this company has to say. If you are aware of another product, that has a market of 130 million people, and has a 90% retention rate, and is not part of a MLM, and pays commissions forever, please let me know
        What is so hard to believe about someone, who is an affiliate marketer, making a few sales a day to pet owners and having them reorder for years because their pets like the food, it is price competitive, and it is the healthiest food available to them? The commissions are much lower than I make selling ebooks, skin creams, biz ops, and insurance leads, but with people reordering on a regular basis the checks keep rolling in and growing every month
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    • Profile picture of the author kevin jackson
      Originally Posted by provitall View Post

      The problem with almost all MLM programs is that there is no natural market for their products. I deal with the 130 million pet owners. If you want to keep selling $40 bottles of the latest "miracle" berry juice, "diet" pills that don't work, or overpriced supplements, you have to recruit people who will be forced to order that cr*p on autoship every month, just so you can make a commission on what they consume. I am a full time affiliate marketer who joined a MLM because it sells the best pet foods available and I didn't even know the pet food we had been buying was through a network marketing company. I signed up just to be able to market their products because the pet care industry is $40 billion a year big and I had no other access to products like the ones they have. So I started promoting their products as if it was an affiliate program. I never try to recruit anyone and I never bother people who order to reorder. The products are so good that I have over a 90% retention rate among my customers. It's been 3 years now and I have over 2000 regular customers that I got by using the same techniques that I use for my affiliate products. The difference is that this isn't a CPA deal, they are my customers forever and I get commissions forever. I never have any contact with them and I'm only aware of them because when I wake up I see all the shipment notices in my email that go out in the middle of the night. I do have customers writing to me asking me if they can sign up and join the MLM and all I do is send them a sign up link. If they do sign up all I do is give them free internet marketing training links. If I had to recruit anyone by talking to anyone or had to chase people down to buy anything, I would never do it. As it is, I'm making huge money and my customer base just keeps growing and growing because of that retention rate. I don't think it works like that with berry juice MLMs
      You just hit the nail on the head or at least one of them. The key to long term success with the mlm business model is retailing products and not recruiting. The mlm companies that are decades old and have been on the NY stock exchange for decades all have a large recurring retail customer base. If you combine professional salesmanship, marketing and networking in the mix then you have a sure fire recipe for phenomenal success with loyal customers for years.
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    • Profile picture of the author DogScout
      Originally Posted by provitall View Post

      The problem with almost all MLM programs is that there is no natural market for their products. I deal with the 130 million pet owners. If you want to keep selling $40 bottles of the latest "miracle" berry juice, "diet" pills that don't work, or overpriced supplements, you have to recruit people who will be forced to order that cr*p on autoship every month, just so you can make a commission on what they consume. I am a full time affiliate marketer who joined a MLM because it sells the best pet foods available and I didn't even know the pet food we had been buying was through a network marketing company. I signed up just to be able to market their products because the pet care industry is $40 billion a year big and I had no other access to products like the ones they have. So I started promoting their products as if it was an affiliate program. I never try to recruit anyone and I never bother people who order to reorder. The products are so good that I have over a 90% retention rate among my customers. It's been 3 years now and I have over 2000 regular customers that I got by using the same techniques that I use for my affiliate products. The difference is that this isn't a CPA deal, they are my customers forever and I get commissions forever. I never have any contact with them and I'm only aware of them because when I wake up I see all the shipment notices in my email that go out in the middle of the night. I do have customers writing to me asking me if they can sign up and join the MLM and all I do is send them a sign up link. If they do sign up all I do is give them free internet marketing training links. If I had to recruit anyone by talking to anyone or had to chase people down to buy anything, I would never do it. As it is, I'm making huge money and my customer base just keeps growing and growing because of that retention rate. I don't think it works like that with berry juice MLMs
      If you are selling dog & cat food and not selling Flint River or Neuman's... I'd look closely how it is made. Those are the only two (dry foods) not steam extruded in the US. Research it. Many other brands have a 'perceived' value that is scientifically not there. (If you are selling wet food, disregard.:rolleyes


      Maybe I am not enamored with MLMs because, quite frankly, I am not very good at it. It (to me) is a difficult model. In that regard, I am somewhat biased in my beliefs about it. Since I am not good at it, it is much easier for me to blame the model... especially when so many agree.
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      • Profile picture of the author provitall
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Sounds like Flint River (which is an excellent product) but that isn't mlm so guess not.
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      • Profile picture of the author provitall
        Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

        If you are selling dog & cat food and not selling Flint River or Neuman's... I'd look closely how it is made. Those are the only two (dry foods) not steam extruded in the US. Research it. Many other brands have a 'perceived' value that is scientifically not there. (If you are selling wet food, disregard.:rolleyes


        Maybe I am not enamored with MLMs because, quite frankly, I am not very good at it. It (to me) is a difficult model. In that regard, I am somewhat biased in my beliefs about it. Since I am not good at it, it is much easier for me to blame the model... especially when so many agree.
        I think your research is lacking, not mine. This product is made in an APHIS certified USDA plant, uses a “fast-cook” process at low temperatures to help preserve the nutritional value of the ingredients, is made in much smaller batches than those two brands, and is shipped directly to my customers so it doesn't spend months in warehouses.
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        • Profile picture of the author DogScout
          Originally Posted by provitall View Post

          I think your research is lacking, not mine. This product is made in an APHIS certified USDA plant, uses a “fast-cook” process at low temperatures to help preserve the nutritional value of the ingredients, is made in much smaller batches than those two brands, and is shipped directly to my customers so it doesn't spend months in warehouses.
          All dog foods made in the US is USDA approved and as far as I know, most (if not all) are APHIS certified (for European made foods). '“fast-cook” process at low temperatures' (doesn't address whether it is extruded or not),prevent dogs in particular (cats have longer intestines for their size and are OK with just about anything, lol). from ingesting/absorbing more than 14-18% of any protien in any eaten material. Slow cooking or toasting at medium to high temps 'pre-digests' the food, allowing absorption of up to 28% nutrition. If a selling point is 'high nutritition' and therefore a need to feed less and smaller stools, it is a flawed benefit unless... If it is 'Life's Abundance' or a couple others, they have to chelate the product in order for dogs to be able to absorb all the nutrients (since it is a high nutrition food). Personally, I would not feed my dog anything chelated. But that is me. Dogs can live 25 years or more genically speaking, even Danes, but feeding them stuff like BHA and chelated foods kill them off faster. Not to argue, I did 18 months of research and a lot of experts not on pet food company payrolls seem to agree with me more than they don't. Anyway, not to argue. The discussion isn't about dog food, it is about selling dog food. Lol. Besides, we are not likely to change each other's opinion on the pros and cons of dog food processing.
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  • Profile picture of the author glycodoc
    MLM's are not necessarily "bad" - just as a gun is not bad - how they are used may be good or bad. There are some very good products sold by MLM companies, but also a lot of cheap junk sold by others. Google Ann Sieg (7 Lies of Network Marketing) - you may find her information interesting.
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  • Profile picture of the author grumpyjacksa
    let's make it simple....

    if the product or service by itself is not worth the money you pay for it....

    it is not a sustainable business model

    call it a pyramid

    call it a scam

    whatever - but it is not sustainable

    there are VERY few that qualify as sustainable business models...

    because in most cases, the prices are inflated to attract new recruits with big numbers being thrown around...

    while the real money is made from selling training material - because even those who will fail, are still going to buy it....

    if you take that income away, many "heavy hitters" will go down...

    just my 0.02c

    peter
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    • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
      The reason most people FAIL, whether it's in MLM, Real Estate, Franchises, or starting any kind of business is simple...It's called DESIRE

      If the desire to succeed in any business is strong enough, eventually success can and will come about...now there are some definate con's here.

      1-Are you comfortable with failing? ( I failed 4 times myself be4 making a success ) and this was traditional business not mlm.

      2- Do you have a Detailed plan of tactics that allows for execution of Major Strategies?

      3- Are you capitalized enough, yes, do you have enough money?

      4- Is your marketing plan viable and executeable?

      5- Are you willing to learn from the failures of others...

      6- Are you willing to continually invest in your own personal business Education?

      7- Do you have a Solid Mentor in your Business model.

      The list goes on and on, whether its MLM or some form of traditional business. Look at the IM world today. Warriors on here buy a GAZILLION WSO's and jump from one to the next hoping for GET RICH QUICK. When in fact, if you would work on your education and stay consistent and persisten there would be a lot more success.

      Repetition is the Mother of Skill, continue to practice and as the skill improves so does business.

      Every business Model on the planet gets hammered, and MLM takes huge heat. When in fact people should look in the mirror and make a personal evalutation. If you don't like the way something is being done...CHANGE IT!!!

      We run mulitple traditional business's, an MLM organization, and online business's. There is one COMMON DENOMINATOR AMONGST ALL...

      NOTHING HAPPENS IN THIS WORLD TIL SOMETHING IS SOLD!!

      This was a great thread, that i obviously spent to much time reading like Tsnyder and the others....

      To you personal continued success.

      Robert Nelson
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  • Profile picture of the author Darunner14
    I have never heard of Team National?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Hocking
    The plan should be structured on paying on the sales of products not the recruitment of people.

    That will ensure that company is selling products not just staking up on sales people.
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  • Profile picture of the author neodarth
    I've seen many MLM and Networking companies, and what's bother me more is the fact that the sales process, the urge to get more people under your network, the money to make is always more important than the product or service you sell, care for the final user? not so much... that's not a sustainable business model.

    And usually they are overpriced dubious quality products.

    I'm really not a big fan of that kind of marketing.
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