You May Not Care About Your Reputation, But Your Affiliates Do

71 replies
Hey Warriors!

I have seen something sad recently. No names will be mentioned, so don't ask here or via PM or try the guessing name, but the situation is something I wish I could embrace and handle myself.

There's a marketer whose products I love. I think they're outstanding, in fact. But after about a year or two of stellar online presence, the marketer has immersed him/herself in the "promote any and everything" and "email every day, sometimes more than once a day" and "let customer service go down the toilet" mindset and s/he won't snap out of it.

As someone who genuinely liked the products, I am sad. But as an affiliate, I'm kind of pissed off. I set up pages promoting this product and person and now that the reputation is being sullied, people are wondering why I would align my name with this.

It's like all MY hard work as an affiliate has gone down the toilet right along with his/her reputation at no fault of my own.

It just got me thinking...if I started doing something different and getting a bunch of emails from people complaining, I can't just think about ME and say, "^&*@ it." I have to think of the wonderful people who have worked their butts off promoting me/my products and helping me succeed because we OWE it to our affiliates to protect our reputation and brand name for THEM, too.

Just food for thought.
Tiff
#affiliates #care #reputation
  • Profile picture of the author Big Al
    Hi Tiff

    I was promoting a product ... really liked the marketer and bought it as well (I know some ppl will say 'duhh....' you should always buy something you're promoting ... anyway).

    When I was a member of this program I ended up 8 weeks behind (paying $97 per month). This guy is seriously good at what he does but that upset me a bit and I stopped promoting him for a while.

    Whilst it's not the same example ... it did put me off promoting him.

    Deep down I'm guessing they're managing by numbers (results) and heck ... they might not even be in the business, have left it down to their staff and now manage by numbers from a distance.

    Or have just thought "Sod it ... lets make some moolah-ha-ha-ha!"

    I've seen that happen in the offline world this week (where I work ... argh!!!)
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
    Hey Tiffany,

    This is happening more and more....and I just don't get it either.

    I see this a lot with launches and "syndicates"....of course reciprocal mailings are good...but as a Product / List owner, Marketers need to realize that it's their relationship with their list that pays the bills and grows their business,

    To many people fall into this trap. They start off...put a lot of hard work, effort and time to build a good reputation, product and connections...and then get sucked into the world of LIST SATURATION.

    I am beginning to dis-associate myself with more and more promotions because the only thing a lot of marketers care about these days are Themselves.....Build a huge List.....who cares about refunds....let's hammer everyone for the next three months...make a bunch of cash .....
    and go on to the next one.

    Most importantly....they begin to promote things that are not congruent with their list's interest.

    Not only is this bad for them.....but it's bad for the industry as a whole.


    I may be ruffling some feathers...and being in the thick of it everyday....maybe it's not good for me to voice my opinion.....but I believe in ethical marketing and putting out 1st class products and building relationships.

    Highest Regards
    Sean
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    New Product Launches, Affiliate Marketplace

    Need More Sales? More Affiliates? LaunchBoards.com
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  • Profile picture of the author teds
    I know what you're saying for I am seeing this too and it's not just one "guru"...makes you wonder whether they're just very greedy or they're living expenses are simply very high...
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    • Profile picture of the author Mission0ps
      It is a shame when greed takes over, folks get a taste of what a single email can do and just bombard the lists with stuff that isn't even relevant.

      I remember signing up to a health related niche then started getting all types of emails about list building and internet marketing...

      Granted I'm very interested in those topics but hey not from a source that I thought was going to give me health tips! - Needless to say I quit the list and it's their loss not mine I say:p
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      • Profile picture of the author sellerscompanion
        I totally agree Tiff! When someone continues to email out to his/her list after ignoring customer support emails, that just irritates the heck out of me.

        For any marketer reading this, be careful with your reputation. If you go from being truly helpful for a couple of years and then start bombarding your list with offer after offer and videos of yourself driving your latest fancy car, how do you think your buyers and affiliates are going to react? Here we are struggling with your "system", asking questions, emailing... and your response is more sales emails and videos?!

        I need a drink.... LOL

        CC
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Mission0ps View Post

        It is a shame when greed takes over, folks get a taste of what a single email can do and just bombard the lists with stuff that isn't even relevant.

        I remember signing up to a health related niche then started getting all types of emails about list building and internet marketing...

        Granted I'm very interested in those topics but hey not from a source that I thought was going to give me health tips! - Needless to say I quit the list and it's their loss not mine I say:p
        Your right !! Greed and Money can have a delusional effect on many people. Especially when a person has never made a whole lot, then they strike it big and as a result they get a euphoric sensation that is intoxicazting to many.

        It amazes me to see good, strong-ethical human beings in Life get totally submerged with money and end up going down an extremely dark road becaus they let money rule their mindset.

        The scary thing is we all have the capacity to do this. We just wont know until we come into contact with a large amount of money how we will react !!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    COMPLETELY agree. Just recently I also received an email from very well respected marketers that pitched a launch. The final reviews on that launch were horrible. The sales letter was literally packed with lies. Overnight, my trust in these marketers disappeared. I'm back to my trusted trifecta and the Unsubscribe button is getting a lot of use these days.
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  • Profile picture of the author forfun_cash
    sadly, all 'gurus' that i opted-in spam their list with affiliate links. No doubt, it will get more sales that way, regardless if people like it or not.
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    WSO: I PROMISE/GUARANTEE you that this will be the LAST WSO you will ever need to purchase!

    Here's the thing. The above may seem too good to be true but all I can say is there isn't even 1% hype or BS in the above sentence. This WILL BE YOUR LAST WSO to purchase.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by forfun_cash View Post

      sadly, all 'gurus' that i opted-in spam their list with affiliate links.
      Surely you see the obvious problem with that statement (and the equally obvious answer to your displeasure).
      Signature
      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
      ~ Zig Ziglar
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      • Profile picture of the author davetish
        Tiff: I agree with almost everything you and others have said in this thread. But I'm wondering if it might be constructive to explore this particular boldfaced phrase of yours: "No names will be mentioned, so don't ask ..."

        Does this person deserve that kind of protection? You say he is a nice guy, but the behavior you describe suggests he is anything but. Nice guys don't take advantage of vulnerable people. Nice guys don't use shady and misleading tactics to make money.

        You are a nice person, Tiff, which I suppose is why you have taken the conventional route of not wanting to "name names." And I would guess that 99.99 percent of the posters in this thread agree with you on that point. It's human nature not to confront, not to make trouble.

        But does that make you all enablers? By keeping silent are we saying it is OK to milk people for every last penny you can get out of them? Does that make you all his accomplices? And what, other than generating a lot of "you go, girl!" have you accomplished by bringing up in this forum the bad behavior of an anonymous marketer? Will all this indignation subside in a day or two and all will be business as usual once again?

        I don't know. I'm just asking. And one final question/thought:

        What would happen if we started to call people out who abuse their power?
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        • Profile picture of the author salegurus
          What ever happened to treat your 'list' like gold?
          I am getting at least one email per day from some well known marketers, i always thought the point of building a list was to build a relationship, give quality content in your emails etc.

          What if?
          1) Even well known IM'ers "Gurus" are hurting because of the bad economy.
          2) More and more people are turning to IM for various reasons, therefore more competition equals less to go around.
          3) Everything in IM has already been covered, marketers are struggling to come-up with unique ideas, ways to make money online.
          4) They know something others don't and are trying to cash-in while the going is good.
          5) Their lists are so big they don't care if 10% unsub because they endorsed a bad product or are bombarding them with junk.
          6) It's becoming more difficult to get buyers to commit.

          Just some ideas, why not?
          Signature
          Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

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        • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
          Originally Posted by davetish View Post

          Tiff: I agree with almost everything you and others have said in this thread. But I'm wondering if it might be constructive to explore this particular boldfaced phrase of yours: "No names will be mentioned, so don't ask ..."

          Does this person deserve that kind of protection? You say he is a nice guy, but the behavior you describe suggests he is anything but. Nice guys don't take advantage of vulnerable people. Nice guys don't use shady and misleading tactics to make money.

          You are a nice person, Tiff, which I suppose is why you have taken the conventional route of not wanting to "name names." And I would guess that 99.99 percent of the posters in this thread agree with you on that point. It's human nature not to confront, not to make trouble.

          But does that make you all enablers? By keeping silent are we saying it is OK to milk people for every last penny you can get out of them? Does that make you all his accomplices? And what, other than generating a lot of "you go, girl!" have you accomplished by bringing up in this forum the bad behavior of an anonymous marketer? Will all this indignation subside in a day or two and all will be business as usual once again?

          I don't know. I'm just asking. And one final question/thought:

          What would happen if we started to call people out who abuse their power?

          I've actually done more 'negative' reviews and warnings about some of the major products than positive ones this whole year. It is SHOCKING to see how many people buy into the hype over and over and have lost a ton of money after 'trusting' a certain guru. Reminds me of move 'Boiler Room'.

          Now as to calling people out. There are a couple problems - first of all we live in a sue-happy society and few will want to risk getting sued for slander or something similar..especially if you're in the same niche.
          However, a more important reason is that this is not the problem of a 'few' big-time guys. This is an issue of mentality and patterns that you can see in almost every level of IMers. As such, calling out specific individuals doesn't always help...it does help instead of educate your list to not fall for the same 'traps' every time. If you can show your subscribers WHAT to avoid instead of WHO to avoid, you'll do much more good than just listing off a bunch of folks.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by davetish View Post

          Tiff: I agree with almost everything you and others have said in this thread. But I'm wondering if it might be constructive to explore this particular boldfaced phrase of yours: "No names will be mentioned, so don't ask ..."

          Does this person deserve that kind of protection?
          The answer to your question is in Rule #1 of the Warrior Forum
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        • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
          Davetish, I don't name names because it's the #1 rule in this forum. Now if you've ever frequented my blog, you'll know I am VERY vocal about sub standard marketing practices and I name names all over the place. Sometimes it even results in wonderful new relationships once things are worked through (like with Kelly Felix - someone I now admire and am in awe of).

          I simply respect Allan's forum and rules here.

          ..........

          Other stuff:

          This, to me, isn't about emailing your list frequency. I don't mind getting daily emails if the person's product is great and they're handling support issues and teaching things. I don't even mind them being an affiliate every day for something new.

          BUT when support is trashed and existing customers aren't being taken care of, it leaves a sour taste in consumers' mouths and as an affiliate who SENT those consumers there, it reflects poorly on me when for the past couple of years this person had a stellar track record.
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          • Profile picture of the author NiallR
            What grinds my gears abou the marketers who do these DAILY promotions for other peoples products is that they use the e-mail address that's really only meant to be used for product updates!

            What the hell? So I have to stay subscribed to be made aware of product updates and you have the cheek to hammer my inbox with crappy sales pitches for guys that have vanished off the IM circuit radar?

            The guy I have in mind (and I'm sure it's the same guy we're all referring to) needs to remember that he's only at his current financial heights because he's standing on the shoulders of customers and affiliates. It's just as easy to fall from that height too.

            Personally I'm sick of having to filter through these constant offers from people I once trusted and respected. You're ruining the trust of the people who put you where you are.

            Oh and I don't give a crap what kinda car you're driving now. Seriously. How tacky is that?
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            • Profile picture of the author nextworld02
              Always have it in mind there are two sides to a coin.
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Tiffany, you make a very solid point, but most of the posters following you seem to be missing it...

                The issue is not bombing your list with offers, although I don't see that as a shrewd move myself.

                The problem is doing 'things' that should be secondary to supporting your current buyers, especially in the age of Twitter, Facebook and other networking sites.

                The person doing ongoing promotions while failing to fulfill basic business functions is not just harming their own reputation, they are harming the reputation of the affiliate by association. And unless they know exactly what they are doing, they will blithely go back to those affiliates and ask them to promote future products.

                In a kind of cockeyed way, being a product seller with affiliates is a little like being a parent - it isn't just about you anymore...

                Even if this 'guru' mends his ways, this thread and others like it on other forums are there forever. People forget, the net never does.

                One big problem with threads like this one is that the point gets buried in war stories - look how many people are dead certain they know who the erring marketer is, even though Tiff refused to name names. If she were to 'name and shame' this person, anyone with an axe to grind would start heating tar and collecting feathers, while assigning others to look for a rail to ride the perp out of town on.
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            • Profile picture of the author davetish
              Tiff: I'm well aware of this forum's rule against naming names. I was thinking a little broader than the Warrior forum. In fact, I wasn't thinking about the Warrior forum at all. I was thinking about the ethics violations that seem to permeate the Internet marketing industry, and wondering what we poor working stiffs can do to fight back. This problem is far more than a Warrior forum-specific issue.

              I realize there is a website or two devoted to "fighting back." But one in particular is so Quintuple X-rated for its profanity that even I have trouble navigating through it. And I'm an ex-sailor.

              Surely there is room for a thoughtful, professional, constructive look at the ethics of how we marketers do business. Maybe there is such place and I just don't know about it. Could be. Or maybe your post will be the seed that will lead to such a place. Hope so.

              And I do know you name names on your blog. That's how I discovered what a nice person you are.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    “It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently” - Warren Buffett (currently the third richest person in the world ( in monetary value))
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  • Profile picture of the author 4thstreet
    Unfortunately the ones who are doing this type of marketing are to to those who can least afford to spend their last $$ on this crap.

    Even the copy on many of these pitches are leaning towards those who are desperate and are willing to try anything to avoid losing their homes. I am not really sure how they sleep well at night.

    Whenever I see these pitch fests of junk, one word comes to mind - Karma - and then I smile.
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  • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
    I thought it was just me who was getting a bit fed up with the emails (sometime 3 a day...) from this person.

    When it first started I was checking out the recommendations but soon found that they were obviously not doing their research as a couple of them had some really damming reviews. So I may find that I miss out on a gem because I no longer click the links in these emails, I just read the body.

    I don't mind getting two or three emails a week from a list I sign up to but some marketers do seem to take it to another level...

    Karen
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    Never Mistake Activity for Accomplishment

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  • Profile picture of the author overseasplease
    Funny you post this because I just removed myself from a certain marketer's list (and sent them an email explaining why) when they sent me an exact email copy of another marketer's previous product launch email.

    The other marketer was just rehashing old material and this other person sent me the exact pre-launch email that was sent for the original product.

    I'm just one subscriber in the big bucket of their list, but I bet a lot of others are catching on as well.
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  • Hi Tiffany, Well you're a honey and a good thinker. I have always appreciated your views and opinions and marketing expertise, and it's So unfortunate that this klutz you refer to gives many of us a red neck.

    It's people like him/her that do MLM and affiliate marketing a bad name. But "We" just need to get over it and move on, leaving these scum bags miles behind!
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  • Profile picture of the author IMDimWit
    What a timely post. I'm seconds away from opting out of a list from a marketer whose products I like but lately the marketer has gone overboard on the emails. Who has time to read all that stuff...every single day! It's an insult to my intelligence to bombard me with emails all promising to have the next big IT.

    My only thought is that the "recession" must be really kicking their butt....
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      It's a sad fact of IM life that this is happening more and more, people get sucked in by the implied Guru lifestyle they see and want a slice of it.

      Part of me thinks they are idiots but another part of me thinks it's up to them if they want to chase the dream... It's not for me but maybe it is for them.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    The thing is, this guy ISN'T a scum. He's a very nice guy. And I sometimes email once a day, too, but it's exactly what CC said above: "When someone continues to email out to his/her list after ignoring customer support emails, that just irritates the heck out of me."

    It's the lack of support (so the reputation goes down the drain) paired with continued emails. Yes, I know they're automated emails. But the recipient who has sent 5 support emails and gets no reply but DOES get 5 new emails from them promoting something, doesn't realize this.
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    • Profile picture of the author baker58
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      The thing is, this guy ISN'T a scum. He's a very nice guy. And I sometimes email once a day, too, but it's exactly what CC said above: "When someone continues to email out to his/her list after ignoring customer support emails, that just irritates the heck out of me." It's the lack of support (so the reputation goes down the drain) paired with continued emails.
      Wow Tiff, this is so ON point! I promoted something recently, from someone who I feel is a great person, yadda, yadda - but then I got email bombard indicating that customer service stunk and that they wanted their money back immediately.

      Well, if they don't respond to them, why in the world would they respond to my request about their bad customer service on top of the fact, I referred those people to them? UGH!

      I work hard to be careful about who and what I promote - when it starts coming back to me, then that creates a problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Hey Warriors!
    . I set up pages promoting this product and person and now that the reputation is being sullied, people are wondering why I would align my name with this.
    It's like all MY hard work as an affiliate has gone down the toilet right along with his/her reputation at no fault of my own.
    Tiff
    Can't you swap out these products for a reputable vendor / product
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    .

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  • Profile picture of the author jaihyppo
    I totally agree with you Tiffany. It is very sad indeed to see how this so called gurus act these days. Probably they have forgotten how they manage to get lots of list in the first place. Yup, I have to agree with some people on this thread, GREED has overpower the mind of this gurus... heck, I don't even want to use the word "gurus" anymore because they are none actually. They are just normal people who simply want to make money.

    This week alone, I have unsubscribed to more than 10 lists already just because they were promoting this ONE so called remarkable and a dream come true product / software. Obviously, they don't even tried the product themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Mission0ps View Post

      It is a shame when greed takes over, folks get a taste of what a single email can do and just bombard the lists with stuff that isn't even relevant.
      Be careful about jumping to conclusions, greed may not be the cause. For example, the person may have bought a training course from someone they admire and trust and are following a recommended course of action. Or perhaps their child is ill and they need to raise money for surgery and know of no other way.

      I'm not saying either of those apply in this case, I don't know who Tiffany is talking about, I'm just saying when we base conclusions on assumptions sometimes we later find ourselves trying to pull our foot out of mouth.

      This is a good example of why it's important to train your list. Make sure they understand when you endorse one product it doesn't mean you endorse all the products that marketer puts out. Make sure they understand when you endorse a marketer today doesn't mean you will a year from now because circumstances change and people change.

      In this case, Tiffany, you might want to add an advisory to your product endorsement cautioning people to use a throw-away email account when they sign up because the product owner may send more emails than the buyer wants to receive. Would that solve your dilemma?
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      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author Amanda Craven
    I so agree, Tiffany, and it's not just those marketers who suddenly go overboard on emails.

    There is one very reputable marketer whose products I loved and who I thought of as highly ethical but they have started to align themselves with other marketers whose values, products and ethics I would at best consider questionable.

    While this marketer has, I am sure, made tidy sums promoting these products and speaking at seminars and webinars alongside these other marketers this has killed it for me as far as their stuff is concerned.

    I have heard that the person concerned now has other offline business interests and is cashing in online while the going is good but that is no excuse in my eyes. Once you set high standards I believe you should keep them up not only for your clients but, as you rightly say, for other marketers...
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  • Profile picture of the author jcepeda
    This an interesting post, but I think that the problem isn't that the marketer doesn't realize this, but that he is desperate to make money because he isn't making money anymore.

    Here's what I believe is happening in the marketplace.

    Buyers are a lot more careful of what they buy, although they are still buying and in large amounts.

    There's more information being shared about products and experiences about those products.

    The Internet Marketing arena is maturing. There are more choices.

    Quality is now starting to become critical. It used to be that information needed to be unique and not exist everywhere, not taught in any other format. Now it's more than that. So, coming up with innovations is critical, and coming up with unique innovations is a lot more work than marketers realize.

    Although greed, as comments keep bringing up, is an issue, it's not the whole story. Marketers are getting desperate. The easy ways of making money that worked in the past are no longer working as easily. Now, you have to stake your claims with market verifiable witnesses. That means work.

    This is actually part and parcel of conducting business and has been for many moons. If you want to come up with a new product you have to invest in Research and Development and that is costly. The Internet Marketing arena is no different.

    I believe that the next few years are going to be a lot more calm in terms of what is offered to the market place although there will still be a large number of products being offered. The problem will be figuring out what works and what doesn't and work with what does and eliminate what doesn't.

    Irrespective, the sad part is that marketers don't seem to realize that they do leave a footprint on the marketplace whenever they bring out a product of some kind and that their reputation isn't just based on that one product but on the many footprints they left behind.

    Like everyone says, build your reputation and once you have built it, maintain it very jealously. It's that important.

    Thanks again, Tiff, another great comment.
    joe
    ps: I agree with Tiff as well, on the promotion part, because buyers of one product will lump the promoter (affiliate) with the actions of the vendor. I have often wondered why someone who has a high level of integrity would be promoting such scummy vendors and that makes me sour on buying any more products from that promoter. So, beware of what and who you promote. IT could hurt your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author dmason
    I agree with everyone that has posted and, in addition, would add that I am uncertain whether or not it is sheer greed that motivates them or the false belief in themselves that tells them that WE will buy anything that they promote because they have our confidence....or, so they think. The greater the number of those that gravitate to this 'new' level...the more suspicious we should and will become.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tramp_Art
    I won't play the guessing game, but I commented in a post yesterday about the same person. I didn't mention his name, but perhaps made it too clear who he is.

    His product is one of the best I've ever purchased (I've purchased three IM products in the last 12 hours, including John Reese's OUTSOURCE FORCE, so I know whereof I speak).

    Some of the other products he is promoting in his emails are good, but enough is enough.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dianagd
      I tried out a couple of products with the idea of promoting.
      One was a continuity program and they requested a phone number at sign up. I canceled the program because it was so elementary a junior high schooler could have aced the program. After the cancel within a 2-3 week period, I started getting phone calls from a separate company who said they were affiliated. These people wouldn't take no for an answer on the first 2 calls and the guy actually argued with me on the phone about how much money I was losing since I was not taking their course.

      This was the first and this was a 'reputable' company with high gravity on CB. The second course cost me a lot of money on CPA and they also had my phone number, too. They called at least 3 times. Again a 'reputable' marketer with lots of products.

      Tiffany, I appreciate your comments and read your blog post about promoting products. I am going to check out the 'gurus' and anybody else before buying another product online.
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  • Profile picture of the author freedomguy
    Thanks for raising this in this forum Tiff. I recently had a good 'rant' elsewhere about a similar thing. I've twice recently had a raft of emails from previously highly regarded IMers promoting products of very poor quality. They can't possibly have reviewed the products prior to promoting them or I'm sure they never would have lent their names to such products.

    The good news is that it gave me an incentive to spend some time mass unsubscribing from all guilty parties. It is now my policy to unsubscribe from any list owner that succumbs to the temptation to treat me as a 'cash cow'.

    This has reduced my newsletter mailbox to useful information only, removed almost all temptation and helped me to stay focussed on my own track. It has also convinced me to spend more time on my own material and less on affiliate marketing.

    John
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    http://www.beyourownboss.co.uk

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    • Profile picture of the author doggybiz
      Hi Tiff

      Thanks for your post. I think i know who you're talking about. As a brit i'm ashamed to say that there's a lot of junk coming out of the north west of England. I wonder if they're all in the same mastermind group - each promoting each others rubbish products. It'll come back to haunt them - but maybe they won't care????
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      • Profile picture of the author rich_henderson
        Hi Tiff

        You are absolutely right to question this marketers methods, unfortunately this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem. My personal pet peeve is you buy a product from someone and literally the next day the promo emails start arriving.

        These emails have no connection whatsoever to the product you bought and are just there for the marketer to cash in while you are supposedly "hot" to buy.

        But is it any wonder that new and intermediate marketers never complete a course the whole way through? The funny thing is the product owners bitch about this in public. They moan about customers not taking enough action and seeing the process through, and yet withing days they are trying to get these same customers to buy somebody else's totally unrelated course. Madness.

        Lastly would just like to say that if every marketer out there (myself included ) had the integrity of Tiff, the IM world would be a lot more newbie friendly and maybe the success rate wouldn't be a measly few percent. I have bought Tiff's plr and other products for a couple of years now and never been disappointed and always had top notch customer service from her too.

        Keep up the good work Tiff, and keep trying to keep the rest of us honest

        Was considering PM'ing you with name of the guy who's ignoring my refund requests but I think even you would have problems getting him to do the right thing!!
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  • Profile picture of the author good2go4
    Hi Tiff

    I noticed a similar problem with an IM who I really respected and bought products from. After the constant hammering from this one guy on a product that was well out of my reach financially I finally wrote to him and asked why he wasn't promoting the more usable and affordable products he had built his reputation on. Obviously I got no reply, no surprises there but I don't even bother to read his marketing emails any more because basically there is no point. LIke others who have answered here I am using my unsubscribe button a lot more - frees me up to do things that are useful to my business, not theirs.
    Have a great day
    Lisa
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Speaking of which - is there a marketing watchdog? Have you ever heard of Dave Lieber? Dave Lieber - Speaker, Columnist & Yankee Cowboy humorist love him - he's helped ME out before. We oughta have a Dave Liber for marketing to help resolve stuff that can't get resolved.
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  • Profile picture of the author Algo
    Hopefully, Tiffany, this one "guru" is not the only product/service provider you are affiliated with. You certainly seem "on-the-ball" enough not to have all of your eggs in one basket, but it bears repeating as a reminder for the rest of us.

    I rarely opt out of mailing lists... I opted in for a reason in the beginning, and like to use the flood of incoming messages as a research tool, to keep me appraised of what others are up to, what works and what doesn't. I just register all my opt-in lists to the same email address to keep it separate from the important stuff.

    The only time I opt out is when marketers use blatantly deceptive practices. My pet peeve at the moment are email subject lines which have nothing at all to do with the body of message (which happens to be a violation of CAN-SPAM).
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    • Profile picture of the author XRay
      I just unsubscribed from the list of a guy that has a very well known how-to product. I really like his product, I use it & I would recommend it to anyone interested in this particular method. BUT the guy stopped emailing about the product/updates to it and started mailing about products he was promoting as an affiliate. Now I have no problem with affiliate promotions as long as it's relevant, but when you start pimping what seems like every new product that comes out to your customer list ... that's not cool at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cardsearch
    What irritates me is that if the gurus programs are winners and so profitable, why do they promote others' junk? I have opted out of many gurus lately..sick and tired of the constant emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author ChickenMan
    I'm actually kind of disappointed in a few marketers that I used to look up to. They all offered good advice but then when that new Mobile Monopoly course came out, that's when it all went downhill because several of them were promoting it, I even got an email from one of them. Didn't order it, which I knew better because of all the negativity surrounding it.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Some people just don't get Twitter Marketing, and worse, they are desperate for money...
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  • Profile picture of the author traceye
    If you are on this marketers list, then it's pretty obvious who it is.

    I also like their product and have been promoting it too, but I've just removed myself from his/her list in the last few days because it was getting really annoying.

    I don't know what to say? I'm sure they have their reasons, but I don't for the life of me understand why because it is hurting their reputation as a great product creator.

    Perhaps it's an experiment that they will share in a future blog post or ebook?

    I can't say why it's happening, all I know that I understand how you are feeling Tiff because I feel the same way about this marketer and his/her products.

    The funny thing is that they didn't do this prior to their recent re-launch so now I'm wondering whether this re-launch was a legit business move for the new content or just a way to get a whole new list of subscribers (of which I've obviously helped do by sending him traffic)??

    All the best
    t
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  • Profile picture of the author maggie2
    Just yesterday I started another thread about this very thing...an IM offering business advice that I thought was unhelpful for his clients and also not considerate of the end user of the product his clients would produce. In the past I have always walked away from this kind of thing but I found what he was suggesting so unsound that I posted about the situation here. That's a first for me.

    As to the situation Tiff mentioned, I recently purchased a product and spent over $200.00 in total with this "guru". And I have been getting emails every day, sometimes more than one a day. I've sent two emails to support and had no response. However, I've had two phone calls now from associates of this guy. They want to upsell me on something even more expensive. I am not happy with the product(s) I purchased from this guy and when I got the phone calls I said so. They certainly didn't ask how they could make this right, nor did they suggest a refund. They just wanted to sell. And the emails keep coming to sell more products, but I'm still waiting for a response to my support questions...so I know what you mean, Tiff. This hurts every marketer when someone does this kind of thing.

    I feel for your situation because you have put time and effort and your own reputation into this guy. Not only that, but when you have a good product you've been promoting it's a shame to possibly have to give it up.

    Hope you find a productive way to resolve your dilemma.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    Tiffany,

    My inbox is filled with the same offers over and over again because of what you're saying. I also have been hitting the "unsubscribe" button again and again.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    Hi Tiff
    What a great post and thanks for putting this up it really makes you think about how you treat your customers. I was about to unsub from a marketers list today and when I got to the unsub part there was a big banner asking me to wait and that if there was to amnny emails I could click the button to only get one a week (this has to be first) so I will see what happens

    Jase
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Tiff,

    This may be an opportunity for you to approach the individual and buy their business or come to other arrangements. This individual may be ready to get of of the business for any number of reasons.

    You love the product, have faith in it, and you are already selling it.

    Jeffery 100% :-)
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    Entrepreneurs starting out and small businesses without giant staffs and budgets.

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    • Profile picture of the author Ben Kendall
      Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

      Tiff,

      This may be an opportunity for you to approach the individual and buy their business or come to other arrangements. This individual may be ready to get of of the business for any number of reasons.

      You love the product, have faith in it, and you are already selling it.

      Jeffery 100% :-)
      Interesting Jim, you could relaunch under new ownership as offline businesses do!
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  • Profile picture of the author younginoc
    This is why I love dealing with Tiffany Dow. One of the few who won't sell out for a quick buck. She is on her way to being on par with the legendary J.F. (Jim) Straw from BusinessLyceum.

    If any of you know who Jim is, you know that is very good company to be in. Right on Tiff, as usual, you rock.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sportate
    I think this thread is right on the money. I too have been a supporter of this marketer and have been most disappointed in the recent direction that he has taken. I was very helped by his first product but much disappointed by his relaunch particularly for those of us who have the original. There just was not enough new information within the relaunch that he should have been pitching it to his existing customers.

    Within one of his own forums there is a comment by one of his technicians that he is off in one of his fancy cars and is not available to help. This is a far cry from the original excellent service he provided.

    One can not help to wonder if he is just trying to rack up a large amount of money and will then disappear into retirement.

    The trust that he built up is fast disappearing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Murphy
    I've got a hunch about who is it and was kind of wondering why the turn myself. Is business that bad to have to hammer on EVERYTHING.

    I think re-launching to the existing customers is pretty lame. Why not re-launch the revised edition and then send the existing customers the new info....for nothing.

    The internet doesn't have to be a cold, faceless place and with all the web 2.0 stuff so hot, it shouldn't be.

    Maybe he'll see the error of his ways and turn things around...
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  • Profile picture of the author RareGoodStuff
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Hey Warriors!

    I have seen something sad recently. No names will be mentioned, so don't ask here or via PM or try the guessing name, but the situation is something I wish I could embrace and handle myself.

    There's a marketer whose products I love. I think they're outstanding, in fact. But after about a year or two of stellar online presence, the marketer has immersed him/herself in the "promote any and everything" and "email every day, sometimes more than once a day" and "let customer service go down the toilet" mindset and s/he won't snap out of it.

    As someone who genuinely liked the products, I am sad. But as an affiliate, I'm kind of pissed off. I set up pages promoting this product and person and now that the reputation is being sullied, people are wondering why I would align my name with this.

    It's like all MY hard work as an affiliate has gone down the toilet right along with his/her reputation at no fault of my own.

    It just got me thinking...if I started doing something different and getting a bunch of emails from people complaining, I can't just think about ME and say, "^&*@ it." I have to think of the wonderful people who have worked their butts off promoting me/my products and helping me succeed because we OWE it to our affiliates to protect our reputation and brand name for THEM, too.

    Just food for thought.
    Tiff
    Hey Tiff,
    I'm glad you did this post because let's face it a lot people have no conscience when it comes to making money at the expense others. Recently, I back away from buying a product someone was promoting.

    Reason: The product author had a guest who I disliked so much much because of the kind of tactics you mentioned in your post. In the product promotional video, both of these were kind of tag-teaming their audience. One person says something, the other picks up and on and on they go without shame.

    I love people like you who look after their business but of others as well. You are one of my favorite people and I said so in one of my blog post, where I blogged about the 12 that I love to visit almost on a daily basis.

    Keep the good work.
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidT12
    There are a very few people whom I have learned to trust, and I tend to stay on their lists. There are another couple whose lists I have opted out of (simply because I was getting too many emails) but still trust.

    What annoys the heck out of me is when you sign up to a list, or buy something you thought was good, and then find that you get at least one email a day from the vendor which is virtually screaming at you to buy the latest must-have product. How many new must have products can there be? Does that mean that the last product I bought was garbage?

    There are others who send daily emails - more subdued, good content - but it is just too frequent. I find you can get to a place where you spend too much time checking email, and therefore less time doing what you have to do to succeed.

    I know that we all want to make more money, but can I make a plea for less frequent emails? Can I also make a plea for more high quality email content? In my eyes, this comes back to integrity - I want to learn to trust someone so that I may buy from them, and perhaps even work with them. I am less likely to do that if you scream at me every day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Kendall
    I am glad you brought this to the forefront for several reasons:

    1. Those who promote blindly risk the trust they have earned with me as a customer.

    2. I have noticed some recently focusing on the profit from the affiliate product rather than weighing in quality. We MUST do both at a minimum if we are building a business.

    3. As a customer I have sent emails to some promoters giving them specifics of the poor quality of what they are promoting. Consider doing this.

    4. Talk about poor quality in your trusted mastermind groups both to help your members build a better business and to protect them from shady deals.

    Thanks for this opportunity to express!

    Ben Kendall
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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      I've subscribed to a lot of lists and the majority of these marketers are blindly promoting rubbish for the sake of making a quick buck. But that's not what bothers me. Some of the marketers I'm subscribed to seem very experienced and knowledgeable, at least on the surface, and yet they're in the habit of emailing me everyday (some even twice a day) with some new money-making product. I know for sure these products aren't cut out to be what they claim. If they were, why wouldn't these marketers just implement the methods in these products and make their $285,432 in 7 days like the product claims they can make and go buy an island and their own personal yacht and live in luxury instead of troubling themselves by emailing me daily with these offers? :p
      I guess somebody on here will probably respond to me by saying "Maybe they are really making that much money and also are promoting these very products to make even more money?"
      I guess that's possible. I mean what's the harm in making an extra $58,275 to add to the $745,918 online weekly income?
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

        I guess somebody on here will probably respond to me by saying "Maybe they are really making that much money and also are promoting these very products to make even more money?"

        I guess that's possible. I mean what's the harm in making an extra $58,275 to add to the $745,918 online weekly income?
        I wasn't going to say that.

        I'd bet that most of the time, while the numbers may not be there, the philosophy is, though.

        Given what I understand of the launch process and the quid pro quo involved, the seemingly endless pitches may not be motivated by greed. A given marketer may simply be honoring a whole stack of 'IOU's in a short time span...

        I don't know the specifics on this one, so I'm just postulating a possible alternative.
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        • Profile picture of the author Hanz
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          I wasn't going to say that.

          I'd bet that most of the time, while the numbers may not be there, the philosophy is, though.

          Given what I understand of the launch process and the quid pro quo involved, the seemingly endless pitches may not be motivated by greed. A given marketer may simply be honoring a whole stack of 'IOU's in a short time span...

          I don't know the specifics on this one, so I'm just postulating a possible alternative.
          Never thought of that. Thanks John! Seems like a valid reason to be honest.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    John's right and this comes on the heels of a launch SO...that's what I think.

    It's also why I have never approached anyone for a JV - I don't want to be obligated to promote their product - even those I highly admire I STILL insist on promoting on a product by product basis.

    However this year, I'm going to be blunt and just approach my wish list for JV partners and tell them how I do things with cross promotions not being a given. If they respect that, they'll be onboard. If not, at least I won't be tied to something I feel uncomfortable with...

    ..which is why I DON'T have those six figure days.

    lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Michael
    I know who you're on about, and he's starting to do my head in now also.

    Going from one of the most interesting and fresh marketers I had seen since, The Rich Jerk, to a bog standard clickbank snake.

    Will most probably unsubscribe
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    • Profile picture of the author DJorge
      Hi Tiff,

      Nice post.
      The first problem is that the guru makes his money promoting other gurus' products.
      He is obliged to in order to have them promoting his own product.
      This is a chain and he can not say no.
      Do the math: when you have your own product promoted it costs you at least
      75 % plus bonuses. If you have a good list you receive at least 75 % plus bonuses. He must promote other gurus' products to stay alive.
      They are not stupid and they hate promoting bad stuff but they have no other choice.
      And so we have to learn not to be intimidated by scarcity and wait for reviews before the purchase.
      The second problem is that the market is saturated. It is quite difficult to invent a new product. Today you can earn good money with 90 % free tools and how many products can you put in the remaining 10 %.
      I am receiving mails from gurus trying to sell their old stuff, 1-2 years old. Very sad. If I don't buy he will be forced to sell cheap his Ferrari. Why cheap, because he sells his product at 10 % of the original value.
      My solution is to stop opening mails.

      DJorge
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      • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
        Originally Posted by DJorge View Post

        Hi Tiff,

        Nice post.
        The first problem is that the guru makes his money promoting other gurus' products.
        He is obliged to in order to have them promoting his own product.
        This is a chain and he can not say no.
        Oh but he CAN - he just chooses not to. I choose not to.

        Originally Posted by DJorge View Post

        Do the math: when you have your own product promoted it costs you at least 75 % plus bonuses. If you have a good list you receive at least 75 % plus bonuses. He must promote other gurus' products to stay alive.
        Well I'm alive and making money online. I may not be having those six figure days, but at least I have longevity with my reputation in this industry.

        Originally Posted by DJorge View Post

        They are not stupid and they hate promoting bad stuff but they have no other choice.
        They are stupid because they're 1.) ruining their reputation and 2.) becoming a turn off for affiliates and I don't think they hate promoting bad stuff - I think they don't care. I think they couldn't even tell you whether or not a product was bad in the first place, because they never even touched it.

        Originally Posted by DJorge View Post

        And so we have to learn not to be intimidated by scarcity and wait for reviews before the purchase. The second problem is that the market is saturated. It is quite difficult to invent a new product. Today you can earn good money with 90 % free tools and how many products can you put in the remaining 10 %. I am receiving mails from gurus trying to sell their old stuff, 1-2 years old. Very sad. If I don't buy he will be forced to sell cheap his Ferrari. Why cheap, because he sells his product at 10 % of the original value. My solution is to stop opening mails.
        DJorge
        LOL DJorge! I know where you're coming from But these bottom feeders are not reflective of the industry as a whole - I just wish the reputation of IM was cleaner and that people had respect for their affiliates and weren't just out to make a quick buck.
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        • Profile picture of the author DJorge
          Tiff,

          There are a lot of honest marketers and you among them.
          I respect you integrity, trust you and I agree to most
          of your answer.
          I am an eternal newbie and part of my learning is to guess
          who is a fake guru and who is a real one. (You are in the second
          group and I am not alone with this conviction).
          A good reputation is better than a 6 figures day.
          I am saying this to you as a 56 old and very very experienced
          offline marketer.

          Wish you all the best,

          DJorge
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
    What about the owners that do this:

    1. Launch a product that you can market to that is 5 times bigger than the internet.

    2. Push his product by saying you can make "A Killing" with CPA offers using his new marketing strategy.

    3. Turn around 3 weeks after his own product launch to push a product (as an affiliate now) for a product creation course and say you shouldn't do CPA marketing product creation is where it's at...

    You want to talk about full of sh**...It's piled high and heavy... Just the way most buyers like it!

    I rarely if ever promote products that aren't mine. I know my products are quality. Wouldn't want customer of mine to get burnt cuz some Yahoo sold them junk, didn't give a refund....or whateva...
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    • Profile picture of the author CoolWarrior
      Tiff spoke up. As a result many good marketers also raised their voices...

      This discussion reminded me of this Harvard video which I twitted recently to others called:
      The Biggest Mistake a Leader Can Make...

      http://bit.ly/goodleaders

      (It is save to click as it has nothing to do selling you something with IM)

      Just a 7 min video that speaks powerfully to what we are all talking about here: Integrity!

      "All it takes for the 'IM' world to deteriorate is for good people to stand by and say nothing!"

      Thanks,
      ~TW

      P.S. You made my life a little less stressed knowing there are good people around who will do the right thing!
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      “Energy may be likened to the bending of a crossbow; decision, to the releasing of a trigger.” ― Sun Tzu


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      • Profile picture of the author Barbara Brenner
        Virtually all of the responders here appear to be somewhat savvy folks when it comes to IM. I am not, so I thought you might like to hear a newbie's viewpoint.

        I was laid off from a company I worked for for 16 years. It was a day when the thing to do was lop off Directors and VPs, so save the cost of high salaries.

        Since I had had some web experience, building our company's first intranet before I really knew what I was doing, I figured I would try my hand at doing something on the internet. Trouble was, after looking around for a good while at countless "offers", I didn't want to get my hands -- or my soul -- so dirty. Wading through page after page with huge red fonts and cautions about the offer being JUST about to expire left me feeling slightly nauseous and even ashamed that I could even be considering joining this "fraternity". What made me continue was the fact that my first blog was about Leadership and Management in corporate society - something I was passionate about. It was writing content about a subject I loved.

        I was able to indulge myself for awhile - I had a wordpress.com blog - free, but no ads allowed, but I was getting used to writing content -- until I realized -- duh! -- that eventually I would have to earn some income doing this stuff. I didn't really see myself -- in this economy -- being hired again in corporate society - after all, I am turning 65 on Sept. 14, 2010.

        There I was, with a desktop filled with ebooks and other driftwood. I call it that because mostly I never got to reading most of it. It just landed somewhere on my PC and laid around gathering dust.

        I was in a personal crisis because I didn't yet know good from bad, couldn't seem to make a dime because through all the ebooks and downloads, nobody ever REALLY showed me a system. Or warned me about what [or what types] to avoid.

        I was ready to chuck in the whole idea, even after I had spent hundreds of dollars while unemployed and having no income. And then I came across some people like Tiffany and realized that IM didn't HAVE to be scammy, that it could have integrity, honesty, dedication, and the willingness to help others.

        I have recently trimmed down the email lists I was on considerably -- down to about 8 or 9 from about 16. Tiffany is like having a next-door neighbor, and is someone who restores belief in good people. Hers are some of the emails I open first. She is a no BS person with the integrity I like to see.

        Because of the other types of IMs, I almost just gave up, thinking it was not possible to be in IM without being a con artist. If I saw one more Ferrari with a guru standing next to it, I'd have thrown up.

        It was Tiffany who made me strive again, knowing it was NOT impossible to have integrity in IM. Thanks, Tiffany.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Hi Tiffany,

    while I don't know who you are talking about specifically, I couldn't agree more!

    I personally have found a lot of the recent big product launch products to be absolute garbage, yet people email their list constantly recommending these products, quite obviously without even having seen the product beforehand. It absolutely boggles my mind why anybody who cares about their reputation would even promote such products.

    Needless to say they automatically lose all credibility with me and automatically lose access to my wallet and my inbox.

    This practice of pitching offer after offer(With complete disregard as to whether it is even relevant) is taught in many courses.

    Unfortunately many people seem to forget that actions have consequences, and while you maybe making money now in the short term, it is the long term and lifetime value of the customer that is most important.

    Not withstanding your reputation.

    Respectfully
    Chris
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