Be Careful Who You Listen To...

94 replies
I remember reading a post at the WF a long time ago, not long after I got started here, where one member said something along the lines of:

"Most people on this forum or any other are not making any money. It might be 80/20, 90/10, or less"

At the time, I had started becoming very involved in this community, building my own trust in certain individuals, making a few friends, learning alot, giving advice to others and so the statement almost put me on the defensive.

I had come to value the opinion of other warriors, believe what they say and trust in their judgments.

But today, after almost 5 years at the WF and almost 6 in online biz, there's something that I wish someone had told me:

When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.

And as it happens, their level and their experience are, for the most part, not too high. It's true that most people who are active on forums like this aren't making much money (despite what their sig lines say) and don't have that much experience. That's MOST... not ALL. That's why they have so much time to spend here.

If someone at a forum doesn't like your idea, doesn't understand your reasoning, thinks you should or shouldn't do a certain thing in your online business... just take it with a grain of salt. It's possible that they've never done it and don't know anything more than what they have read about it. In fact it's more than possible, it's likely.

Be careful who you listen to is the point. When it comes to your business, ie your income and your life, do you really want to base many decisions on the views of some faceless, "forum experts"?

This is a special place from which a lot can be learned and we're all lucky to have it. There are even plenty of real experts here who make millions and know more about online busines than you might ever know. But as we remember this we must also see places like this for what they are, and act within them accordingly.

To your success,
Andrew
#careful #listen
  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    great advice. i have learned this to a great extent the last few months. not every single person you think you can trust, can you trust great post.
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    • Profile picture of the author webwriter
      Those Warriors with experience and a wish to share their information are the ones whose advice I will read and seriously consider, especially if that advice addresses the issue(s) I'm working on. My learning curve is shortened and my progress improves.

      I visit these forums to learn, for the most part, and generally don't spend a lot of time on other stuff, as entertaining or frivolous as it may be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wonderful Warrior
    Well said.

    Although I do think there are some VERY successful people who post on the WF because they want to give back to the community. WF helped them and now they want to help others.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Andrew, where the hell have you been? I hardly see you around here anymore.

      You're quite right. You have to take everything you hear spouted at this
      forum with a grain of salt.

      Test for yourself and see what works for you.

      IMO, that is the best solution to any problem.
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  • great advice, as a new member, its certainly hard to decide who is right and who is wrong.

    As you say, its just personal opinioin
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by AndrewHansen View Post

    When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.

    And as it happens, their level and their experience are, for the most part, not too high. It's true that most people who are active on forums like this aren't making much money (despite what their sig lines say) and don't have that much experience. That's MOST... not ALL. That's why they have so much time to spend here.
    The part I bolded is an excellent point to remember on forums or in real life conversations. Everyone speaks from their own level of experience, and we all filter information through our experiences, beliefs, and biases.

    Andrew, I agree with most of your post, but I think the part about "most people who have time to be here are those not making money" is a dangerous assumption. It's because I'm making good money - a full-time income - that I'm able to be here. If I weren't, I'd have to find another way to make money. Nobody is paying my bills for me. I only have to work 5-10 hours a week to maintain my businesses. I work more than that because I enjoy it, but I have a TON of discretionary time.

    I know a lot of people that spend a fair bit of time here who are making good money. I'm part of several Skype groups with different Warriors, probably about 50 different Warriors in total. We run ideas past each other, get advice and opinions from each other, and let each other know what's working and what's not. It's the main reason we are together, and for the most part members are screened and voted on before they get in, everyone contributes. I can't think of anyone offhand in these groups who isn't making good money. Most are full-time IM, a few are semi-retired.

    Judging how much time a person spends here is tricky business too. I can spend 10 minutes here and post several times, or I can pop in for a couple minutes several times a day and it looks like I'm here a more than I really am. That's usually the case for me. If you go by the front page listing of who is here, I'm always here. The WF is always open in one of my browser tabs, but that doesn't mean I'm actively browsing, it's just convenient to keep logged in.

    The rest of your post offers excellent advice newbies would be wise to pay heed to.

    Originally Posted by Wonderful Warrior View Post

    ... I do think there are some VERY successful people who post on the WF because they want to give back to the community. WF helped them and now they want to help others.
    You nailed it. Giving back is the primary reason I come here. I like to help people. It makes me feel good.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thinker1
      Great post. I totally agree with what you've shared. It comes down to your personal decision as to who you want to listen to and allow to be influenced by.
      Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    There are currently over 5000 people viewing this forum, how many do you reckon make a full time living from the internet? 1%? 5%?

    I think your example is muddled. Of course you should be selective in who you listen to, but essentially the person you are referring to was correct.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      There are currently over 5000 people viewing this forum, how many do you reckon make a full time living from the internet? 1%? 5%?

      I think your example is muddled. Of course you should be selective in who you listen to, but essentially the person you are referring to was correct.
      A person doesn't have to be full-time to be successful and to be able to give good advice. The amount of time someone spends on the forum just isn't a very good criterion for determining if their advice is good or not. My example illustrated just one reason why it's not a good criterion, there are many other reasons.

      Here's another: some of the people that spend a fair amount of time here often give great advice. There is no denying that. Think Paul Myers. Think Steven Wagenheim. I could name dozens of examples. Time spent here has little relevance to the quality of advice someone offers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    I liked your point it was very pertinant .... can I add a point "be careful who you don't listen to" I have seen alot of people lately argue the odds and ignore advice from very successful online business people...

    I once saw Ron Douglas offer someone personalised advice via PM and the person said I can't my post count is too low can I have an email address. (thats where you buy warroom membership just to PM and get great advice)

    Just sayingThere are allot of people on here worth listening to sometimes people ignore them at there peril
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I agree with all your warnings. However, I don't think making big money or length of time with Internet Marketing is always a safe reason to accept a person's advise. There could be Warriors making a ton of money that don't have a clue about a particular topic. Just because someone is making a full time income online does not mean they have expertise in every topic. Just because someone is not making any money online does not mean they can't contribute some valuable tips or advice. They may have learned something last week, applied it, and already seen good results.

    I like the phrase you used that applies to almost every post, on every topic, from every member; "take it with a grain of salt."
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    • Profile picture of the author Annieinternet
      Thank you. I can't seem to find the thank you button on my keyboard. Also, I'm trying to hurry up and get in 50 posts on the off chance some guy named Ron Douglas want to PM me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frugal Jen
    I can't post the actual link (I haven't posted enough yet). You will have to paste it in.

    But Pro Blogger posted a graph last year of a poll he did- looks like around 15-20% of bloggers are earning a nice part time to full time income. And of that 15-20% around 12% are earning a very good to pretty amazing full time income.

    problogger.net/archives/2009/01/02/how-much-money-do-bloggers-make-blogging/

    -jen
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  • Profile picture of the author keadams26
    No one person is the "all-knowing". Listen to what others have to say, take what you want to take, and leave the rest behind.
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    • Profile picture of the author Morbrook
      Thanks , great advice for a newbie.
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  • Profile picture of the author skystar2
    Great post Andrew. If I had any advice for noobs it would be to spend more time here than on the WSO forum. I am speaking from experience. If you pay attention to the tenor,tone and content of the individuals in this forum,you will soon be able to get an idea whose advice and help you can trust.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewHansen
      @Steve - Yeah, haven't popped in for a while. Did I miss much? You keepin the place under control?

      @Dennis - I'm with you mate, and I almost mentioned that. Though I still maintain that of the people who do spend the most time here, people like yourself will be in the minority.

      Andrew
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      • Profile picture of the author Algo
        I get (and entirely agree with) the point... that some may fall into the trap of believing that because it was mentioned on the Warrior Forum, it must be true, and obviously, that's not the case.

        It is an easy trap to fall into because there is an implicit authority that comes with the WF.
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  • Profile picture of the author ankur sharma
    Really great advice. Sometime, even with the guy who made couple million dollars online give you ****ty advice. Learn to work with your gut instinct.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    This thread is an oxymoron.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by AndrewHansen View Post

    But today, after almost 5 years at the WF and almost 6 in online biz, there's something that I wish someone had told me:

    When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.

    And as it happens, their level and their experience are, for the most part, not too high. It's true that most people who are active on forums like this aren't making much money (despite what their sig lines say) and don't have that much experience. That's MOST... not ALL. That's why they have so much time to spend here.

    If someone at a forum doesn't like your idea, doesn't understand your reasoning, thinks you should or shouldn't do a certain thing in your online business... just take it with a grain of salt. It's possible that they've never done it and don't know anything more than what they have read about it. In fact it's more than possible, it's likely.
    Andrew: Great post. This is some of the best advice I have ever heard offered on this site...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.
      ...and sometimes they are not speaking from any experience but simply repeating what they read on another forum or blog...and who knows what that person's level is
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.
    GREAT point. One every newbie to business (or to this forum) needs to really
    internalize and deeply understand before reading the posts.

    Seth Godin calls it "world views" in his book, "All Marketers Are Liars".

    I've seen oh-so-many 'experts' spout away on their pet theories, with little
    to back up their points of view than specious reasoning, and the ability to
    sustain arguments beyond a point where others want to continue debating the
    non-issue!

    It's true that most people who are active on forums like this aren't making much money (despite what their sig lines say) and don't have that much experience. That's MOST... not ALL. That's why they have so much time to spend here.
    This bit I disagree with (a bit!). People post on forums like this for a
    variety of reasons, and some of them DO have time to spend because they make
    it a higher priority than other things they do.

    I've seen some fabulous insights from short (even one-line) posts made by
    RARE visitors to the forum, that's worth more than many others. And though
    (maybe) not so much lately, earlier even very successful marketers and
    business owners used to post frequently, just to share their experience,
    and maybe in the process grow a following in the niche, too.

    Today, I just can't tell. And so am cynical of many - until I am sure they
    know what they're talking about!


    All success
    Dr.Mani

    P.S. - I drafted my reply after reading Andrew's post alone, then went through
    the rest of the comments!

    How interesting is it that the very part of the post I quoted is also the one
    Dennis did. We both started online around the same time, around 1996,
    right Booj?
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by drmani View Post


      How interesting is it that the very part of the post I quoted is also the one
      Dennis did. We both started online around the same time, around 1996,
      right Booj?
      Right Dr. Mani. It was January or February of 1997 for me. We helped each other grow back then. We should think about doing something together again.

      I haven't seen the "Booj" nickname in a long time. That brought a smile to my face. Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Right Dr. Mani. It was January or February of 1997 for me. We helped each other grow back then. We should think about doing something together again.
        Yes, let's

        Will PM you a longer note shortly!

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by AndrewHansen View Post

          @Dennis - I'm with you mate, and I almost mentioned that. Though I still maintain that of the people who do spend the most time here, people like yourself will be in the minority.

          Andrew
          I don't disagree with that, Andrew. I just didn't want newbies to think that was a hard and fast rule so I thought it was important for them to see that it isn't.

          Like I said, your original post was very good, and I agreed with the rest of it.

          Originally Posted by drmani View Post

          Yes, let's

          Will PM you a longer note shortly!

          All success
          Dr.Mani
          Sounds good!
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          • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
            Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver View Post

            I liked your point it was very pertinant .... can I add a point "be careful who you don't listen to" I have seen alot of people lately argue the odds and ignore advice from very successful online business people...

            I once saw Ron Douglas offer someone personalised advice via PM and the person said I can't my post count is too low can I have an email address. (thats where you buy warroom membership just to PM and get great advice)

            Just sayingThere are allot of people on here worth listening to sometimes people ignore them at there peril
            I'd like to offer a counter point to Andrew's OP....

            Just BECAUSE someone is successful, does not mean you MUST take their word as gospel either.

            For example, just because a Doctor has saved many lives, does not mean overweight people should automatically assume that the obesity pills they have prescribed are better than fruit, veg and exercise.
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            • Profile picture of the author AndrewHansen
              Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

              Just BECAUSE someone is successful, does not mean you MUST take their word as gospel either.
              I would say we are making the same point Nick.

              6 figure thinking might not offer the perfect solution for the person looking to crack 4 figures either. It's more likely to do so (since the person at 6 figures has at least been at the 4 figure level and gotten beyond it)... but is not at all absolutely the case.

              @Joe - thanks man, I appreciate that!

              Andrew
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                I only listen to bald people.
                I'm bald under my hair...does that count?:p
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              • Profile picture of the author walesfootball
                Its difficult as a 'newbie' who to listen to and who not to, I guess more credit can be given to people who've been around here a while, which would give some credibility. As for the products on here its really confusing, as obviously they all claim to be the best, but then I guess that's the case anywhere!
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              • Profile picture of the author Daryl Lim
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                • Profile picture of the author Tanner
                  Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

                  Those who can do....

                  Actually someone can be a student of a topic, in this case IM and know a great deal without having implemented everything. Everything may not be germain to their particular business but there are just things that get picked up along the way.

                  A good example would be Jeopardy contestants. Some people just absorb information. Few people can claim expertise in more than a few areas. There just isn't enough time to brand yourself as an expert in everything. The branding is more complicated than the learning actually.

                  If "doing" was the only legitimate avenue of information, who would teach half of the university level subjects?
                  A large percentage of those book learned professors who are teaching the "university level subjects" have never implemented their so called 'expert knowledge" a day in their life and if you were to put them out in the real world they would fall flat on their face.

                  These people are armchair experts who have no real clue whether or not the stuff they teach actually works and only have the "proof" given by the text book they are teaching out of.

                  ...This is actually very similar to much of the advice and knowledge being shared here on the WF.


                  Originally Posted by Daryl Lim View Post

                  Very true, I'm sure most people here havenot made much money just like myself. To date, I can say ive made only... Perhaps somewhat around $100 only.
                  This part of your post stuck out at me because of the comments Steven W and Anonymous Affiliate made about people giving advice when they haven't been there or done that.

                  And here is a prime example of that when you say you've only made "around $100" and yet in your WSO you are teaching people how to "build a stable income" and even offering coaching services.

                  If you've only made $100, how can you offer coaching and teach people how to build a stable income?


                  Originally Posted by Daryl Lim View Post

                  Other times, it's not all about money. A newbie can know a lot too, but what separates them and a true moneymaker is that one takes action and one does not. Nevertheless, the newbie still hold knowledge and mastery!
                  They may hold the knowledge, but without action and implementation that knowledge is useless. Mastery in something results from massive action and investing the blood, sweat, tears, money and everything else required to achieve that mastery. Simply by massing knowledge does not give you mastery over anything.
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                  • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
                    Tanner,

                    It is actually possible for someone to have mastered something like Wordpress, have made little or no money online, but still be perfectly qualified to be advising people in this market on how to master Wordpress.

                    If someone is advising specifically on "how to make money with Wordpress", but haven't done so themself - that is another matter altogether...

                    It should be "how to master wordpress" rather than "how to make money with wordpress"

                    But then this comes down to basic honesty.

                    I deleted my earlier post on this thread, because I think what I wrote didn't come across correctly.
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                  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
                    Originally Posted by Tanner View Post

                    A large percentage of those book learned professors who are teaching the "university level subjects" have never implemented their so called 'expert knowledge" a day in their life and if you were to put them out in the real world they would fall flat on their face.

                    These people are armchair experts who have no real clue whether or not the stuff they teach actually works and only have the "proof" given by the text book they are teaching out of.

                    ...This is actually very similar to much of the advice and knowledge being shared here on the WF.
                    My bad! Somehow I often wind up debating my own opinions. You should see me try to make a decision.

                    When I started my post with "Those who can do...", I really expected someone to get hostile. Teachers are quite sensitive to that notion. But indeed, far too many teachers rest on their laurels. Whatever they studied however many years ago seems to be pretty much okay for a life time career.

                    I went to two major colleges. One was filled with professors with letters. We had doctors coming out the whazoo. The other college considered itself a teaching college. It's professors had to be actively engaged in research projects in their field. Not all my professors at this school were doctors but guess where I got the more vibrant education?

                    What I like about this forum is someone can ask a question. Somewhere between newbie and early advanced. And get an answer. If the answer stinks, wiser minds usually jump in and set everything straight. There simply are not enough reasonably priced sources to learn everything you need to know in this business.

                    A lot of this business works on the fly. Other areas of the business are merely technological updates such as direct marketing. Even the high priced gurus often only know what works for them. Slight variations in my business may make their advice invalid for me.

                    Kinda hard to believe in 20 years IM will be taught in every junior college in the country. And it will still be all about who takes action. There will probably be IM assistant training at Lincoln Tech. Like the veterinarian today make $250 an hour and his tech make $12 an hour, so it will be with the person who has the guts and drive to be the marketer and the person who is content to be a cog in the machine.
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              • Profile picture of the author hometutor
                As I understand some people are making a good living with just WSOs. So perhaps they're hanging out here because they are successful here.

                Even successful people can only base their ideas on their own expertise. In church a friend of mine is a very successful business owner. He's done things which if I listed them would sound like overhype in an ebook I'd be trying to sell lol.

                He recently told me a product I launched would not succeed, then he began asking me questions about the platform for the product demonstrating to me he was not familiar enough to give me advice about this particular niche. Though I heed his advice like it's gold in general business topics, he was not knowledgeable enough to give me a valued opinion on this topic.

                The moral being successful people are successful in their niche. Even they may have flawed advice on specific topics.

                Rick
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by DogScout View Post

      Boogie Jack?
      You got it, Mark.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Frugal Jen View Post

        I can't post the actual link (I haven't posted enough yet). You will have to paste it in.

        But Pro Blogger posted a graph last year of a poll he did- looks like around 15-20% of bloggers are earning a nice part time to full time income. And of that 15-20% around 12% are earning a very good to pretty amazing full time income.

        problogger.net/archives/2009/01/02/how-much-money-do-bloggers-make-blogging/

        -jen
        Jen, while a graph like that is interesting, there is a caveat...

        The results in the graph are based on the people who actually answered the poll. Whether that sample is valid for the whole population statistically is another issue.

        Based on observation and anecdotal evidence, I'd guess those numbers are a little high for the blogging population at large.

        Andrew...

        Excellent post, especially the point Dennis and Dr. Mani highlighted. Even posters who are sincere and knowledgeable are posting from their own context.

        Earning $10,000 per month is a figure you see thrown around a lot, right?

        I start a thread asking for advice on how to best accomplish some specific goal. Another poster comes back with an answer and says they know it works because they make $10k per month from it.

        If I make $1k, then this is advice I may want to take seriously.

        If I make $100k, then I can't afford the step backwards.

        Same goal, same advice, different context...
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        • Profile picture of the author Frugal Jen
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Jen, while a graph like that is interesting, there is a caveat...

          The results in the graph are based on the people who actually answered the poll. Whether that sample is valid for the whole population statistically is another issue.
          Oh, sure.. there are a ton of people out there blogging would are not trying to make any money.. So they would never come to Problogger or the WF and be included in any sort of poll like this.

          My guess is this poll is "somewhere in the vicinity" of accurate for those who are actively trying to make money blogging.

          And those are the same type of people who read WF or visit Problogger. So you may find similar results if you ran the same poll here.

          Even so, it tells us that at least 70% of people are not making any or barely any money on their sites.

          jenetta
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    Good post Andrew.

    I feel for the new person indiscriminantly soaking up all the information presented.

    Just remember, it's all opinion. Just because someone says it's a fact doesn't make it so.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Originally Posted by AndrewHansen View Post


    When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.
    This is absolutely true. And it goes both ways - someone who never has made any money and have no clue what they are talking about and gurus who have no clue what they are talking about.

    Let me explain:

    Many gurus, accept it or not, started out in the how to make money field and their first product was a how to make money product. So they have no clue how to start up a fitness site or a personals site or a dog training site. They might NOW but many still don't.

    Many gurus have never had to face payroll deadlines. I'm not talking about a VA or affiliates, I'm talking about 10 people who need that paycheck to feed their families. They've never had to deal with discipline problems or go to a funeral of an employee's family member. They've never had to administer urine/drug tests.

    Many gurus don't have long standing products (always for sale). They do big launches and take them off the market. Many use pen names. Many resort to tactics that cause regular questions of their honesty and ethics. Many hide behind PO Boxes andd helpdesks. All things a real business can't do.

    Most gurus have no clue what's it like to have the phone ringing off the hook or dealing with business licenses or other regulations.

    I could go on and on.

    Why do I bring this up? Because many gurus get defensive or slap you with negative or snide remarks if you question their experience.

    In many of their minds the ONLY way to run a business is a long sales letter, no phone but a "helpdesk", digital products, no employees, touch it once, etc.

    So when someone comes along and has a legitimate reason to question those beliefs they are many times labeled as a wanna be or loser or whiner.

    The fact is that Internet Marketing techniques can help many kinds of businesses. But many gurus don't understand real world business so they have a one size fits all approach. The phone company, hospital, veternarian, beauty shop, and grocery store should all have a long sales letter for example. While that may increase conversions in some cases, most "real" businesses aren't going to have a 2 page site. Nor are they going to buy a domain name like Florida-cheap-phone-service.com.

    There are some professions that certain types of advertising are forbidden. Some professions can't have affiliates for example. Some real businesses are covered by contractual or other obligations to never up sell anyone. Some professions can't use Aweber or GetResponse as their email processor because of privacy regulations.

    Etc. etc. etc.

    My point isn't whether xyz company should or shouldn't have a long sales letter or digital products or a helpdesk or which way makes more money. My point is that there are real businesses with real success, big and small, that don't or can't do those things and that there are legitimate questions that can and should be asked.

    The answer for some is long sales letter, digital products, affiliates, JVs and PPC. The answer for many is many page websites, real products, real employees, real taxes, real offices, etc. and none of the other.

    For example how many times have you read that a long sales letter ALWAYS converts better (in their experience). Yes that's true perhaps in their experience. But have they tried one for the local hospital or Microsoft or the local bookstore or the beauty shop? Probably not.

    I'm not anti guru. I'm anti pigeonholing everything into a nice little package when it just isn't that easy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Vogin
      Exactly. I'm far from a guru, I made $18 online and I'm proud of it - most of the "advices" I offer are common sense, because people seems to lack it at times.
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      • Originally Posted by Vogin View Post

        I'm far from a guru, I made $18 online and I'm proud of it - most of the "advices" I offer are common sense, because people seems to lack it at times.
        Sorry, but no. Your "common sense advices" don't seem to work very well for you because you've only made $18 in this business. How could you possibly offer ANY type of business advise (this is a business forum, let's not forget that) to ANYONE if you haven't made a dime yourself? Dont you see the irony there?

        In my opinion, people making small money should post less and read+implement more.
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  • Profile picture of the author thesweetspot
    I agree...we all have to test it for ourselves anyways.

    That is how all business marketing goes no matter what form and even the most tested are retested for even greater results...Look at ALL THE TOP COMPANIES THAT DO MARKETING
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Indeed, there is some frighteningly terrible business advice that is kicked around on this forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Fladlien
      The funny thing is when you are a stone-cold expert at something... and pop into a thread where a lot of people who aren't experts and have no experience... are espousing popular but invalid advice...

      And you come in with your own experience... and get derailed! Because you're in the minority and since you're dissenting against everyone else you come across as "negative".

      No good deed goes unpunished
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Marriott
      Indeed, there is some frighteningly terrible business advice that is kicked around on this forum.
      I agree, and much of the time it is blatantly obvious that the poster has no idea on the subject. It seems that they are commenting simply for sake of it.

      In some areas it may be difficult for new marketers to see what is rubbish and what is not. One tip I would give is how you word your OP. Don't say is A better than B? all you will get is a bunch of conflicting opinions. When you do ask a question make it specific and give details that people can use when trying to give you an answer. I see loads of newbie posts like. How do I get more people to my web site? No further information, no clues. they just need the answer to everything.

      But that is the nature of any open forum (I guess that's why they call it a forum?) As I am typing this I'm thinking maybe I should create a newbie guide to warrior forum or has someone already done that and it's just ignored?

      OK, yes everyone is at different levels and therefore will offer different levels of advice but if you really don't know the answer then just keep your mouth shut. In the real world you would keep quiet because it would be obvious you didn't know what you were talking about and you would very quickly be put in your place. A forum allows you a little more anonymity and security to be more than you are.


      OK there are people on this forum that are just here to help others but they are far from the majority. Of course there are many who do, but I would guess that the majority are self serving and hence not so choosy in their advice or input.


      Somewhere in the middle I like to think there are guys like me. Yes I come her for my own benefits, but I think I also play fair and make sure that every post or reply I make contributes to the forum and is offered from my own expertise or experience. I don't comment of stuff I know nothing about
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Indeed, there is some frighteningly terrible business advice that is kicked around on this forum.
      Yes... there certainly is...

      Great OP!... I used to have a sig file, that said something like this:

      "The opinions on this forum don't pay your mortgage, won't buy your cars, and won't pay for your kids education... so why do you listen to the nonsense?.."

      Or something to that effect!
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    • Profile picture of the author James12C
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Indeed, there is some frighteningly terrible business advice that is kicked around on this forum.
      OK - but IM isn't the same playing field as bricks and mortar companies.

      J
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by James12C View Post

        OK - but IM isn't the same playing field as bricks and mortar companies.

        J

        I dunno. I have yet to see any business last for very long if they aren't keeping more money in the bank than they're spending.

        Financially, it's the same playing field. Money matters. And that's ALL that matters.
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  • Profile picture of the author forfun_cash
    Very very well said. I believe many people are aware of this but none of them have came out to say. Thanks for letting the public know!
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  • Profile picture of the author reapr
    Great post ...

    Some threads are like walking through a cow pasture. There should be some sort of warning like >>> Hip-waders Required!
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  • Profile picture of the author ukcarl
    Good call I only listen to people I know are doing better than me, with that in mind Im careful whose list Im on and take small bits of advice and run with it and test and learn for myself.

    When I first started out was on digital point and spent about 6 month wasting my time over there since then I found this place and wikedfire and never looked back but one thing I tend to do is only visit forums in my spare time on an evening
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I have to add something to this because of something I just found out and
      can absolutely verify. No, I won't mention any names because that would
      violate rule 1, but a member here is an outright liar.

      In a thread, this person claimed they did one affiliate sale and never did
      another one.

      I just found this person's blog about page where they talk about all the
      many thousands of dollars they made from affiliate marketing.

      Members...folks will LIE TO YOU.

      You can take that to the bank.

      Therefore, take NOTHING...and I mean NOTHING you read here at face
      value unless that person PROVES to you that what they claim is true.

      And even then, you have to view the proof skeptically because you
      don't know where it's coming from.

      I thought I saw everything until today.

      Boy was I wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author LeeSteese
        The person your calling a liar never said he doesn't do affiliate promo's at all. He has, in fact, stated in a number of his posts that being an affiliate is a valuable part of his business, because it allows him to form new relationships with other product owners. He's simply made the point that ONLY being an affiliate isn't a great business to be in.


        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I have to add something to this because of something I just found out and
        can absolutely verify. No, I won't mention any names because that would
        violate rule 1, but a member here is an outright liar.

        In a thread, this person claimed they did one affiliate sale and never did
        another one.

        I just found this person's blog about page where they talk about all the
        many thousands of dollars they made from affiliate marketing.

        Members...folks will LIE TO YOU.

        You can take that to the bank.

        Therefore, take NOTHING...and I mean NOTHING you read here at face
        value unless that person PROVES to you that what they claim is true.

        And even then, you have to view the proof skeptically because you
        don't know where it's coming from.

        I thought I saw everything until today.

        Boy was I wrong.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by LeeSteese View Post

          The person your calling a liar never said he doesn't do affiliate promo's at all. He has, in fact, stated in a number of his posts that being an affiliate is a valuable part of his business, because it allows him to form new relationships with other product owners. He's simply made the point that ONLY being an affiliate isn't a great business to be in.
          You need to read the comments about when this person first started
          affiliate marketing. He said, and I quote, "I made one sale and that was it"
          and then he went to his new model which included affiliate promotions as
          part of a JV process.

          If you read the blog, you get an entirely different story.

          No, I am not wrong...he lied...PERIOD.
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          • Profile picture of the author LeeSteese
            Thanks Steve. I misread what you had said and have not taken the time to look closely at all of his (or anyone elses) posts since I don't really have a fight going with anyone..and hope not too in the future.

            Here is a post where he does talk about affiliate marketing having value though, and about how he uses it. His bigger point is that he doesn't think it's a great business model all by itself...which I think is a point even you would agree with, otherwise I doubt you'd take the to make your products (some of which I've bought and I think are very good btw)

            I can't post links here. If you go to reply number 399 on the thread where you and him had your major disagreement though you will see what he's said about it.

            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            You need to read the comments about when this person first started
            affiliate marketing. He said, and I quote, "I made one sale and that was it"
            and then he went to his new model which included affiliate promotions as
            part of a JV process.

            If you read the blog, you get an entirely different story.

            No, I am not wrong...he lied...PERIOD.
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      • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        a member here is an outright liar.
        Only one?

        Great op Andrew. Unfortunately, there really isn't any way for newcomers to really know who is worth listening to. With some folks every post is a mini sales letter designed to convince you of their expertise, even when they're not specifically claiming to be an expert, (in fact, especially when they're not claiming it).
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  • Profile picture of the author Pat Blank
    Good point - not everyone who posts here is successful or truthful.

    Sometimes the not-yet-successful members have learned a lot from experience and have valuable things to contribute. Sometimes.
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  • Profile picture of the author macchiavelli
    I wish I got your advice when I got started.

    I wasted so much time reading ebooks and not doing anything.
    Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and help myself in the right direction lol.

    Then again I wouldnt be as experienced as I am today.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    I only listen to bald people.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      I only listen to bald people.
      "I see bald people"
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    • Profile picture of the author steve995
      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      I only listen to bald people.
      Quite right too!

      On a more serious note, part of the problem is that no-one ever knows what they don't know until they are enlightened. Hence, they give advice that is incredibly well meant but 100% wrong.

      They cannot help it, they are genuinely trying to help but the theory they espouse is wrong (part of the problem being that all too often, it is little more than a theory).

      Anyone who treats what they read here as the gospel truth would do well to understand this. This forum is full of some of the biggest-hearted people you will ever encounter but that doesn't necessarily make their opinions right,

      Cheers,

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author VicOnline
        So, as someone who is indeed new to this game, how do you know who is & who isn't making real money?

        How do you know who's advice you should stongly consider & who's you should not rely on so heavily?

        I know reading this forum for hours will provide some answers, but there's so many people on this forum, it's a little difficult trying to separate the doers from the non-doers. Then on top of that, you may have people who are really good at one particular area, but not so good in other areas.
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        • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
          Originally Posted by VicOnline View Post

          So, as someone who is indeed new to this game, how do you know who is & who isn't making real money?

          How do you know who's advice you should stongly consider & who's you should not rely on so heavily?

          I know reading this forum for hours will provide some answers, but there's so many people on this forum, it's a little difficult trying to separate the doers from the non-doers. Then on top of that, you may have people who are really good at one particular area, but not so good in other areas.
          If you are a newbie, the truth is it very hard to know who to take seriously and who not to.

          Many people make credible/logical sounding posts, but they don't really know what they are talking about in reality.

          So you have to be careful.

          I'm a very experienced online marketer, so I tend to know from instinct the warriors who know what they are talking about, just by reading their posts.

          I would recommend reading all the posts of these guys:

          admin
          Paul Myers
          ccmusicman
          Shaun O'Reilly
          KarlWarren
          Alexa Smith
          John McCabe
          AJ Silvers

          I try to read all their posts whenever I'm on the forum, and those of about 10 other warriors as well.
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          • Profile picture of the author VicOnline
            Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

            If you are a newbie, the truth is it very hard to know who to take seriously and who not to.

            Many people make credible/logical sounding posts, but they don't really know what they are talking about in reality.

            So you have to be careful.

            I'm a very experienced online marketer, so I tend to know from instinct the warriors who know what they are talking about, just by reading their posts.

            I would recommend reading all the posts of these guys:

            admin
            Paul Myers
            ccmusicman
            Shaun O'Reilly
            KarlWarren
            Alexa Smith
            John McCabe
            AJ Silvers

            I try to read all their posts whenever I'm on the forum, and those of about 10 other warriors as well.
            Thanks for posting this. I spend a lot of time reading these forums trying to understand what's going on. As a result, I've already started to pay attention to some of the ones on your list, but you can bet I'll be adding the others that you mentioned. So again thanks for pointing out some of the ones I didn't know about. I suppose the cream will rise to the top & in due time, things will start to be more obvious.
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  • Profile picture of the author robertsss
    Thank you. I can't seem to find the thank you button on my keyboard.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackTriggs
    Only listen to someone that actually provides value before the pitch
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  • Profile picture of the author jacksonlin
    I have to agree. There are many people on this forum who think they created internet marketing and give you their advice on what they think is best for your business.

    I have to say, if I followed their advice I wouldn't be making ANY money online now.

    This kind of reminds me back in high school where you had the kid who didn't know anything but would like to tell everyone else what to do - but yet he was failing every subject and was the most opinionated person you could find in the room!

    This is like that, but bigger!
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  • Profile picture of the author averagejenny
    Great advice Andrew and you are absolutely right. Most people that are making money most likely wouldn't have the time to post on here because they will be too busy making money then trying to make friends or find info. I come on here to post my opinion on here and if people like it they like it, it is their decision. Forums are suppose to help people in building their business not make business decisions. Whatever a person do, that is their business.
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  • I've always endorsed the idea of an income-tiered structure for the Warrior Forums, where you've got to prove how much money you make and thus you gain access to the "under $1000 per month" section, or the "$1000 to $5000 per month" section, etc.

    That way, people would get to network and discuss ideas from people who are on the same level as themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author theory expert
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I've always endorsed the idea of an income-tiered structure for the Warrior Forums, where you've got to prove how much money you make and thus you gain access to the "under $1000 per month" section, or the "$1000 to $5000 per month" section, etc.

      That way, people would get to network and discuss ideas from people who are on the same level as themselves.
      How will this proof work?
      You want them to show tax returns notorized signed by a lawyer and accountant?

      or

      some video which probably could be manipulated going into "their" accounts?
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by janok View Post

        How will this proof work?
        You want them to show tax returns notorized signed by a lawyer and accountant?

        or

        some video which probably could be manipulated going into "their" accounts?
        Let's forget about "their" perspective for a moment, and talk about
        this from "our/my/your" perspective.

        Let's say a "beyond any doubt" successful business person like
        Bill Gates or Sergei Brin or Richard Branson comes here and shares an
        idea or process or plan.

        YOU would only view that from YOUR unique perspective or "world view"
        that's conditioned by YOUR own experiences in life... and those are
        unique and different for each of us.

        So, one person who reads the exact same post will take the idea, run
        with it, and make a million dollars, or even a billion.

        Another will look at it, disbelievingly or critically, do nothing on
        it, and it will have absolutely zero value.

        Backing the post itself with all the proof in the world about the
        poster's credibility will not do much to affect the IMPACT it will
        have on the reader/viewer.

        That's why Andrew's original message matters.

        When people post on this forum or any other, they are speaking from their own level, and according to their own experience.
        We view the world through our own lens. To experience change, we first
        need to change the lens... and then, we'll change the world

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Dr. Mani,

          YOU would only view that from YOUR unique perspective or "world view" that's conditioned by YOUR own experiences in life... and those are unique and different for each of us.
          I agree and consequently believe that in many scenarios, the advice of -

          Bill Gates or Sergei Brin or Richard Branson
          ...would be the worst possible advice for a significant group of the populace, because their advice is conditioned by their own experiences, which are unique and different.

          Conversely, for a significant group of the populace, it's possible that the advice provided by a starving, homeless person could be ideal for them.

          Therefore, I say -

          • develop your own information filters
          • listen to everyone
          • carefully filter out the less appropriate
          • continue to develop your own filters
          • but don't be afraid to accidentally filter out too many - trust your initiative and gut
          • above all, forge your own path and follow your own carefully nurtured and educated gut instinct
          Signature


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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Murphy
    Well put Andrew. People would be wise to look a little further than the Warrior forum. The whole "success leaves traces" thing is very true.

    Can't go wrong with bald people Thomas. Maybe us hair people are hiding something....in our hair.....
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  • Profile picture of the author good2go4
    I don't think you have to be making mega dollars to be able to give good advice. I know for myself as an Internet Marketer I am still a bit of a newbie and SEO is just a bunch of funny letters to me. But I have worked for ten years online as a freelance writer and I do give advice to people sometimes if it is about a topic I have had personal experience with. And I guess that makes Anderw's point quite true - we all share from our level of experience and what we know to be true. If I make a point I am not sure about I will say so in a post and then keep checking back to the thread to see if my own learning curve can be improved.
    What I do find hard to swallow is those occasional posts that are usually made by newcomers to the forum about their absolute 'only way" to do something and that is where the "grain of salt" aspect comes in for me. I have bought a few programs from warriors recently who swear I will make a fortune, or at least a couple of hundred a week and I haven't made a cent from them (and yes I did add ACTION) to the mix. My bad i guess for believing all that i read on the WF
    Just my opinion
    Lisa
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    • Profile picture of the author Slipknot Masks
      if I had a penny for every single email I got in my box, or clicked on, or read "get to the top of google tomorrow" or "make thousands with no work"....totally agree take what you get for information, no matter if it is from someone you know.

      It is a dog eat dog world, you can make good money, but it might take you longer and not be the "road" you thought it was.
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  • Profile picture of the author eQuus
    If one has average intelligence then one can discern whether a person speaks from experience or just spouting hot air. This forum has many intelligent people with great experience, and I have benefited a lot from their posts. To me what the OP says is a no brainer. If you can't tell the warriors from the paper tigers, then your ass is grass.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    I like to 'listen' to what everyone says, at least once. I then take it upon myself to find out if what they are saying is fair dinkum or not. It is how I learn; processing other people's opinion so I form my own.

    If I find out what they are saying is rot then I just know to not waste my time in the future.

    Sometimes what you learn from other people isn't exactly what that person was trying to teach.
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    • Profile picture of the author dunne63
      Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

      Sometimes what you learn from other people isn't exactly what that person was trying to teach.
      Love that Fraggler! Brilliant and so true.

      @Andrew - Amen brother, but I would extend that caution to the entire IM planet.
      I think everyone can share something worth while, but not every bit of wisdom is worth $27, $97, $297, $997... and hours of your time.
      There are so many ways to do IM, finding your perfect plan is almost like finding your soulmate...
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  • Profile picture of the author LasseKohau
    Great advice to anybody, who wants to benefit from any forum (no matter businessadvice or gaming).

    Put it simpel, read, learn, test, repeat or make another way.

    LASSE
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    It's true that most people who are active on forums like this aren't making much money
    While that statement is true and I think your post is well put...

    This is one of the very few forums where people who have earned 6, 7, and 8 figures participate on a regular basis.

    Yes, most members of this forum have not or do not earn that much...

    But the warrior forum is a bit like a water cooler for many highly successful internet marketers who just like to hang out with other like minded people and who genuinely like to contribute in the hopes that others may benefit and succeed.

    Also you get a variety of expertise here... not just from the "make money on the net" perspective (not everyone here is trying to sell in the how to get rich quick niches). You will find that there are a few... though their numbers are limited, experts in fields that can offer advice, resources, or pointers in various areas that will greatly benefit your business.

    There are also many talents both new and seasoned that can easily be tapped here.

    The biggest mistake is to come here thinking that the key is that everyone here is either a "make money on the net" guru or looking to become one. This forum is far more dynamic than that.

    The truth is that people of all levels of financial success come to this forum to share in a collaborative spirit of prosperity.

    It might surprise you just how much wealth visits or gets its start here.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I've always endorsed the idea of an income-tiered structure for the Warrior Forums, where you've got to prove how much money you make and thus you gain access to the "under $1000 per month" section, or the "$1000 to $5000 per month" section, etc.

      That way, people would get to network and discuss ideas from people who are on the same level as themselves.
      Interesting idea, AA...

      Others have already ticked on the problem of verifying such a scheme, so I'll just ask a couple of questions...

      If you come in at the "under $1k/mo" level, and the only people you are allowed to interact with are other "under $1k/mo" people, how do you move up to the next level?

      If you are at the "over $10k/mo" level, and the only people you can interact with are others at the same level, how do you find the up-and-comers who might someday be your peers?

      Just asking...
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  • Profile picture of the author HorseStall
    I think this is an excellent point. You always need to consider the source and remember what works for one business may not always work for another.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    Those who can do....

    Actually someone can be a student of a topic, in this case IM and know a great deal without having implemented everything. Everything may not be germain to their particular business but there are just things that get picked up along the way.

    A good example would be Jeopardy contestants. Some people just absorb information. Few people can claim expertise in more than a few areas. There just isn't enough time to brand yourself as an expert in everything. The branding is more complicated than the learning actually.

    If "doing" was the only legitimate avenue of information, who would teach half of the university level subjects?
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  • Profile picture of the author vstar00
    hey great advice, I think in all areas of life you need to take in all information and try it for yourself. If you dont test it yourself, you will never know. never take anything any single person says to heart
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    A couple of things:

    I need to know how much everyone makes so I then know who makes more than me so I know who to listen to.

    I also need this info so I can tell when someone that makes more than you do gives me advice.

    Let's say Ron Douglas gives me advice on how to sell some books. So I listen him, because he makes more than I do.

    But then Steven King gives me some pointers. Steven King makes more than Ron selling books, so I shouldn't listen to Ron then and start paying attention to Steven King.

    Then if Warren Buffet gives me some advice, I'll stop listening to Steven King.

    And here's another problem is have with the general consensus on this thread...Those that make the most money may not be the best teachers, or the most willing teachers.

    If you are a US sports fan...Who's a better player, Kareem or his college coach John Wooden? Who is the better teacher? Two totally different things. Yet, on this thread they are considered the exact same thing.

    I'm guessing 5 years or so ago, I posted a thread asking "who would you buy from if you knew both were 100% true?"

    A. Marketer makes $100,000 a year. Has 9 students that followed her coarse also make $100,000 a year.

    B. Joe Guru. He makes $1 million a year.

    Again, you know for a fact both are true. Both systems generated the same amount of money.

    Almost everyone picked #A when this same premise as Andrew's OP, but was put in an entirely different form.

    And, there aren't that many threads on this forum that actually talk about making money. And most of those that do aren't complete business plans, but rather bits and pieces, with many options and no right or wrong answers.

    If a noob asks for noob-friendly SEO software, who is best qualified to give advice, a guru or another noob?

    Also, I'll post stuff from clients or friends that I know and trust...Why can't good info be reported, even though it is second hand? If I screen my sources of info very well, or do something for someone other than myself, why doesn't this count?

    And finally, some of the most successful marketers also have the most bias to/against other marketers and (free) resources in their niches. A person can have all the knowledge and skill in the world, but if this person has a bias for money, friendship, enemies, obligations, etc, that "expertise" won't be passed on...

    I suggest we take advice on the merits of the advice itself and not some pre-conceived notions...Telling me to put my keywords in my title tags is good advice whether it comes from Bill Gates or from some homeless guy with a sign that says "Will SEO for Food".
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  • Profile picture of the author MoneyBagsMcgee
    Tell me about it, I've wasted so much time and money following the advice of people I don't even know. What's sad is that I can often see some flaw in the plan, but since this guy is supposedly an "expert", I will follow the plan anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author kingstand
    That's a good advice though, but being a member of WF doesn't necessarily mean that you'll succeed on the internet if you are not putting in the right effort and not relating with the right people.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    I noticed a few months ago I seemed to come in here more then working on my biz.
    I enjoy talking with people and helping if I can but I inevitably suffered for it.

    I know that a lot of people need help and advice but I found the best help and advice is trial and error. When a solution to a problem fixes your problem then you can replicate that, Expand on it and branch out. Making huge bucks can and does happen but it does not happen overnight.

    I see a lot of folks looking for the quick fix i liken it much the same as a drug addict looking for that next hit. You need to study learn apply and Never Give Up!

    I had to go back to work for a little while because I focussed on other things instead of my biz and when I did make good cash I spent it so the reality is there are some on here who are successful and do try and help but it is prety apparent who is doing and who is talking of doing. Forums are meant to fill a need for social interaction and though you can learn things it inevitably rests on your own efforts and your own USP

    No one is going to give you the million dollar key keep that in mind and consider a place like this or any other as a social networking avenue I have met some great people some I have had arguements with but still respect others i wonder how they put their pants on never mind run a biz.

    Do what works for you not what worked for someone else you must always recall that just because one person succeeded using a certain plan or system does not mean that system is going to work for you.

    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author Kalpana Iyer
    You're right! I had someone message me once with Black Hat SEO tips and he actually said the White Hat methods I followed were pointless. He made himself sound like a guru. Was a newbie then, but thank God I knew better.

    You should definitely take everything with a grain of salt - the bad stuff as well as the good. Some people just exaggerate the good stuff too and make it sound as if getting a huge profit is something very simple to achieve.
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  • Profile picture of the author mr2020
    Hi Andrew,

    Seems like there is a lot more hype here, compared to the old days too. I've noticed every time I take what I have learned, and go back to the basics - things are good.

    Keep it simple. Keep focused.

    Ignore ALL of the bs.

    And make some decent friends.

    Mr2020
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