Most Writting Services On This Site Are Laughable!

96 replies
Don't waste your money with most of the content writers on this site. Most of them aren't english speakers and the articles, press releases and such in my opinion are crap! I wasted my money on articles and press releases and the wordage was that of a 9 yr old with mild retardation.

Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!

Maybe I should charge $5 per article, even me with the worst grammar and spelling skills in the world can produce more legible content!

I do have to say the person who did my first press release was qualified and did a great job, but most I feel in my opinion have no business charging money for their writing services!
#laughable #services #site #writting
  • Profile picture of the author L41db4ck
    Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

    Don't waste your money with most of the content writers on this site. Most of them aren't english speakers and the articles, press releases and such in my opinion are crap! I wasted my money on articles and press releases and the wordage was that of a 9 yr old with mild retardation.

    Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!

    Maybe I should charge $5 per article, even me with the worst grammar and spelling skills in the world can produce more legible content!

    I do have to say the person who did my first press release was qualified and did a great job, but most I feel in my opinion have no business charging money for their writing services!
    Hopefully, your title error was just finger trouble?? :p
    Signature

    Rgds, our password-named poster

    Google LOVES aged domains!
    Premium Aged Domains - - Make An Offer Now!


    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581464].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    If you are paying $5 an article, I would expect them to be laughable. In my experience, getting a good article at $10 is a deal (and taking advantage of the writer?).

    There are some great writers here, they just charge more than $5 or $10.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581465].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dave d
    There are some good writers on here but it does take a lot of digging and testing. By in large Im mainly disappointed though. It seems that folk are pretty good whipping up a good sales page free of grammatical error but when you get the articles back it doesn't seem to be from the same person so they are obviously outsourcing cheaply so they can make a profit.

    My partner has contacted over 10 Warriors for hire for writing services and heard back from nobody. I contacted a number and got 2 responses one even wrote the articles when I only asked for a price
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581466].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Dave d View Post

      It seems that folk are pretty good whipping up a good sales page free of grammatical error but when you get the articles back it doesn't seem to be from the same person so they are obviously outsourcing cheaply so they can make a profit.

      If you were in the business of selling articles on high volume, would you be writing the articles yourself?

      There are only so many hours in a week... And if you outsell your own writing capabilities, you absolutely have to outsource or refund...

      Which makes more sense?

      I don't currently offer writing myself, but when I was selling $8-$12,000 worth of articles per month (at $40 an article), there was no way in God's green earth that I could have been doing all the writing myself...


      p.s. When I was outsourcing articles to other writers, I was paying $25 an article...
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581560].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author inter123
        I think you get all sorts here. There are people that charge the Earth but for the price fail to deliver and there are who charge little and fail to provide quality.

        I have have also noticed there are people who charge at a low rate but offer real quality. These people are often newbies starting out in the world of IM and the the people who use their services are getting a real bargain.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581578].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
          Care to mention the people who have a low rate and produce good quality articles?


          Originally Posted by inter123 View Post

          I think you get all sorts here. There are people that charge the Earth but for the price fail to deliver and there are who charge little and fail to provide quality.

          I have have also noticed there are people who charge at a low rate but offer real quality. These people are often newbies starting out in the world of IM and the the people who use their services are getting a real bargain.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581588].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

            Care to mention the people who have a low rate and produce good quality articles?
            If you were paying attention, you would have noticed the signature of the person who told you that:

            Originally Posted by inter123 View Post

            500 word article for $4, written by Native English Speaker. Send me a PM.
            I would suggest not being so cheap though... If you take that person up on his/her offer, and they deliver good content, pay them double what they are asking for...

            That way, we won't think you are taking advantage of someone who hasn't figured out his or her true worth yet... LOL

            And if you pay them more than they ask, they will likely go out of their way to do you a good job...
            Signature
            Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
            Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581596].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
              I never mentioned I paid $5 for an article. I did say I should charge $5 an article with my poor grammar and writing skills to write articles myself.

              For your information I paid $25 for the article I'm referring too not $5. I did leave out the price, I paid $25 not $5.
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              If you were paying attention, you would have noticed the signature of the person who told you that:



              I would suggest not being so cheap though... If you take that person up on his/her offer, and they deliver good content, pay them double what they are asking for...

              That way, we won't think you are taking advantage of someone who hasn't figured out his or her true worth yet... LOL

              And if you pay them more than they ask, they will likely go out of their way to do you a good job...
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581623].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

                I never mentioned I paid $5 for an article. I did say I should charge $5 an article with my poor grammar and writing skills to write articles myself.

                For your information I paid $25 for the article I'm referring too not $5. I did leave out the price, I paid $25 not $5.
                Well, you were not as cheap as I thought you was... My apologies for that...

                The way you wrote your OP, it seemed to suggest that you were paying only $5 an article... It is hard to argue against that given that so many people in this thread have assumed that you only paid $5 for your articles...


                But you are still trashing a whole community of writers "Most Writing Services On This Site Are Laughable!", because you have had bad experiences with a few...

                My experience is that most writing services on this site are good and reliable services, operated by decent and hard-working people, who are trying to provide real value to their customers...


                Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

                When I mean by "Most" I'm mostly referring to the foreign writers from countries where English is not the native language.
                Although you did mention "foreign writers" in your original post, you also implied that "most writers on this site" are a waste of money... AND "most writers on this site" have no business charging money for their writing services!

                Because you have found yourself under fire, you are now changing your story, to make your comments a little less offensive to the community you are insulting...

                Contrast what you just said, with what you originally said:

                Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

                Don't waste your money with most of the content writers on this site. Most of them aren't english speakers and the articles, press releases and such in my opinion are crap! I wasted my money on articles and press releases and the wordage was that of a 9 yr old with mild retardation.

                Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!

                Maybe I should charge $5 per article, even me with the worst grammar and spelling skills in the world can produce more legible content!

                I do have to say the person who did my first press release was qualified and did a great job, but most I feel in my opinion have no business charging money for their writing services!

                Simply put, I think you have gotten off on this lightly... You have suggested that the well-deserved reputations of "most" of the writers in this community are undeserved...

                You have suggested that "most" of the honest, hard-working people who sell their content writing services in this community are unqualified to advertise themselves as professional writers...

                And rightfully so, "most" of the best writers in this community have jumped down your throat for making statements that could serve to damage their businesses...

                "Most" of the time, I am a pretty easy-going fellow... But when people seek to damage an entire group of people for no good reason at all, I get pissed off, and I don't hold my tongue...

                .................................................. .................................................. ................

                p.s. In response to Matt...

                Originally Posted by Matt.Lake View Post

                I'd be interested to know Alexa, did you find most of your high paying clients here on this forum? Or did you have better luck elsewhere?
                I got lucky... I have never felt a need to hunt for clients in the WF... LOL


                p.p.s. I always seem to use up all of my Thank You's early in the day... I have wanted to Thank many posts in this thread, but I have no more to give today...
                Signature
                Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582081].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author dbarnum
              A lot of people ask to write for us, even native USA residents. And price aside, as it makes no difference with the craft itself, here are some things we’ve found:

              - Many people have excellent focus and issues they address in their content. However, the craft of writing itself is often lacking, even in USA native residents.

              - Today, it seems as if many people toss aside basic grammar and spelling rules, thinking “it’s for the web” so that’s OK. Even native USA residents seem to think nothing of creating their own words (not something like a product name, but verbs, adjectives, etc. that are clearly misspelled and not even in the dictionary) and using these within content. While there clearly are no universal standards, it will be up to you to set some for your projects and workers. Not always easy or desired, I know, as we all wear too many hats too often, but a must.

              Example, as mentioned above, what is an “article” to you? You need to establish this as a buyer and seller of content.


              - And to be a paid professional in any field, you do need to learn the rules, brush up on your skills from time to time, and revise your style and work as needed accordingly over time. In the writing field, however, many people seem to think that since they completed writing courses – some possibly even decades earlier in high school with nothing at all since – this makes it OK to charge for this “professional” skill. Yes, it may be OK for some people. But for many, it’s not a good fit, and ego can get in the way in this area, so tread accordingly.

              Example: good writers are good readers. Poll any good writers, and they probably have a book addiction However, you’ll find those who haven’t even picked up a book since high school, yet want to be paid for writing years later, well - - you’ll note a quality difference, more than likely. Not all cases, no, but in many.

              What you can do is :


              If you have writers who do show some good focus on your subject matter, maybe they have great bullet points and a main theme, for instance, work with them. Point out basics like:

              - You need better flow, smoother connecting paragraphs and a better lead.

              - You need to keep the same voice (don’t jump around from “you should….” to “he should” and “we should” etc.)

              - Point out troubling words or phrases in your niche. Example: autoresponder triggers a spelling error still in many applications. Yet that’s how it’s spelled. And words like “equipment” and “jewelry” are plural and singular words (i.e. you do not write out “equipments” and “jewelries.”)

              - You need to watch spelling and grammar: run the spell check and revise accordingly, and make sure all subjects and verbs agree, nouns and adjectives, etc. like:

              He search the web for a long time. (WRONG)
              He searched the web for a long time. (CORRECT)

              Making short notes like this yourself, and keeping them in a handy writer / project file, will help your writing projects and the relationships with your writers a lot. Too often, people toss aside writers who do have potential, but just lack direction and guidance, in my humble opinion. And these writers will even accept lesser payment while they learn and grow.

              Exception:

              Now if your writers are turning in work late and sloppy (not formatted how you’d like) and don’t bother to communicate in a timely manner, forget it. But for those with good work skills (meet deadlines, exercise good communications with you, etc.), go for it. Grow together if you can and give people a working chance.

              Moving Forward...



              You’ll find that many people did excel in high school decades ago, have great ideas, a great voice in their content, etc. Ego can get in the way, so just be kind and use the above tips to work better together, and you may be surprised at the results.

              Keep in mind, too: many people who write for low rates write fast. And many writers have a lot on their plates and minds, and speed write to get it all out. Call it passion speaking.

              Heck, my own writing can look like I’m a non-native with no writing experience at times. Check some of my posts and other communications But I can assure you I have years of an excellent USA education and years of college and other training beyond high school, keeping up with the craft regularly.

              Break for Writers

              So, please, give writers a break when you can. Even with non-native USA English writers, you’ll find many have advanced educations beyond those of lots of writers here in the USA. The non-natives may have grammar issues in the opening sections, but look at the themes and focus of their content. If and when you spot good stuff there, don’t give up. Help smooth over rough spots by:

              a) Sending back notes as above for improvements in revision work
              b) Hire an editor to help and re-price accordingly.
              c) Find other writing tasks for those writers with lesser skills – like maybe short blog posts.
              d) Just as in many niches, the field of writing offers a variety of talented creations as a result of the efforts. So establish boundaries of what you need and will accept, set payment standards accordingly, and adjust for growth working with your team.


              Bottom line is this: there are times when you need to be quick to judge or make decisions on projects, to move on with your work load. But as time allows, go back and review what you have. Can it be improved? If yes, give it a go. See if there’s a fit.
              Signature
              Get customized help:100+ Ways / Support / Warrior4Hire Specials!



              Save & Share: Best Buys / Top Tasks / blog / MAP / Recurring $
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581708].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author inter123
            Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

            Care to mention the people who have a low rate and produce good quality articles?
            There are people who charge low rates and produce high quality work. If you see a WSO that someone is receiving an endless stream of positive opinions, chances are they are good. For instance:

            http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...TNOus9m4uXMTg2

            I have never used them personally but I am willing to bet they are good. They seem to charge $6 for 400 words. This is just one random example but I reckon there are people who charge even less and just as good.

            People say pay peanuts you get monkeys, I do not think that is always the case. With the Internet, you are dealing in a global market place. The choice of potential employees or workers is not limited to someone living within a 20 mile radius.

            And it is possible find people on the other side of the world who will do the work at a fraction of the price. Yes there may well be some difficulties at the start with English as a second language and all the other arguments people put forward.

            I read posts where people state they would charge $50 per hour, that is the value of their time and so on. That is a great outlook to have, it shows the person to value themselves and with high self esteem.

            But business is about maximizing revenue and minimizing outgoings. If it is possible to get someone who will write a decent 500 word article for $5 why spend $25 for the same thing?

            From what I have seen of the market, I would not pay more then $8 for 500 words. It is very much a buyers market, the supply of writers is so great, it is possible to pick up quality content at cheap prices. At this price, I would expect no spelling or gramatical errors, an article that reads well for the target market and is factually correct.

            I would only move into the realms of $25 for 500 words if the author is providing something truly unique. Perhaps provide information not available on the net, an expert in the field (may be working many years in the field, etc and not some Marketing dude) and so on. And the OP talkes of paying $25 and not happy with the work delivered.

            I have been using a content writer that charges $3 for 500 words and it takes 5 days for delivery. After receiving the article, I would need to spend 5 to 10 minutes making minor changes. From a business perspective it is fantastic value. It saves the possibility of spending hours writing content for my sites.

            And as for the title 'Most Writting Services On This Site Are Laughable!' is a bit unfair. That is applicable but not to everyone.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583008].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
              Originally Posted by inter123 View Post

              At this price, I would expect no spelling or gramatical errors, an article that reads well for the target market and is factually correct.
              Even at five dollars an article you're probably wasting money. If you want backlinks, there are cheaper ways to get them. If you're looking for something that sells a product, you're going to need more than you are likely to get for five bucks.

              I will say that I've never looked at one of the Warrior For Hire posts offering $5.00 articles where the writing in the post itself was even sort of adequate, much less good, which doesn't bode well for the articles they write.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583121].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
    You get what you pay for, usually.

    Anyone who is actually good or even adequate is going to find themselves charging more to keep up with demand. Yeah, you get some people who charge more than they're worth and some people who are great don't, but if you're paying less for an article than you would for a cup of coffee, then don't expect much.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581477].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
    I look at it this way the article might be crap but you can also fix it yourself. It takes less time to repair the article then to write it from scratch
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581487].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
      Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

      I look at it this way the article might be crap but you can also fix it yourself. It takes less time to repair the article then to write it from scratch
      This, in my opinion, is your biggest problem - and the biggest problem for alot of IMers. When you hire a writer, you shouldn't go into it thinking about rewriting it yourself. That's a complete waste of your time and money. Would you go to a restaurant and order dinner thinking that you're going to have to season the food yourself when your order comes out? Would you go get a haircut knowing that you're going to have to get out your scissors later and do more cutting yourself?

      When you pay a writer, it should be no different than any other industry. You're paying them for their time, for their expertise, and for their professionalism. If they can't handle the job without you making a bunch of rewrites, you've got the wrong writer. You're paying them to do a job - not so that you can clean up their mess later.

      There are alot of writer "wannabes" out there. I've had people tell me that writing is just common sense, and that you can learn it by reading stuff that was written well. That's like saying you can go out and perform brain surgery because you're a loyal "Grey's Anatomy" viewer!

      If you want the best for both you and your business, you need to set standards and stick to them. Yes, it may take a little longer to find a writer that meets those standards, but, in the long run, you'll be much better off. AND, you'll be saving yourself time, because you won't have to rewrite and babysit.
      Signature
      Sick of blending in with the crowd? Ready to stand ahead of the pack? The right content writing services can get you there...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582045].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    You get what you pay for dude...

    When you pay crap wages, you get crap performance from the people who work for you...

    This kind of result is not limited to the Internet, but it should be more obvious to people who run online businesses...

    Would you write articles for someone else at $5 -- if you felt you had talent as a writer?

    Certainly, you would not...

    So if you would not work for $5 an article, why do you continue to think talented writers will?
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581518].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    I actually think that probably some of the best writers are here. But, as stated above they aren't going to write for $5 an article, nor should they!

    Lee
    Signature
    Gone Fishing
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581544].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    You obviously haven't used Ken's or Tina's services.
    Signature
    IMPORTANT MESSAGE: I'm currently on vacation & will answer all messages when I return - Happy Holidays!!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581551].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Vlad Shelest
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      You obviously haven't used Ken's or Tina's services.
      Would you mind giving us the full names these two warriors can be found under?

      Thanks in advance.

      Vlad.
      Signature
      Are you cut out to be an Elite, 6 Figure Marketer?
      Let Million Dollar marketing ace teach you HOW
      --<*>--
      Massive Action Profit
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581572].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
        Originally Posted by diggitydog View Post

        Would you mind giving us the full names these two warriors can be found under?

        Thanks in advance.

        Vlad.
        Vlad,

        I think they are talking about Tina Golden, I'm not sure who the Ken is..

        Caleb
        Signature

        Caleb Spilchen

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581575].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by diggitydog View Post

        Would you mind giving us the full names these two warriors can be found under?

        Thanks in advance.

        Vlad.
        TMG Enterprises is Tina.
        Signature
        Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
        You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581577].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by diggitydog View Post

        Would you mind giving us the full names these two warriors can be found under?

        Thanks in advance.

        Vlad.
        Vlad, the two writers you asked about would be Tina Golden and Ken Leatherman. I'd also include Michael Oksa in that mix.

        View Profile: TMG Enterprises
        View Profile: Ken Leatherman
        View Profile: Michael Oksa

        All three are very good writers.
        Signature

        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582859].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    As others have said, in many cases you get what you pay for. If you pay $5 an article, then expect articles that are worth five dollars to you.

    Take a peek inside the WF for Hire section and you'll see lots of people whose main participation on this forum is just in that section of the forum. Possibly they're here to make a quick buck. They see you as an ATM. And so they'll happily spit out crap as long as you keep spitting out five dollar bills.

    What you need to look for are the GOOD writers who care about their clients and care about their reputation on this forum. Look for people who've been here for a while. Look for people who've built up a good reputation as a writer... and as a member of this forum.

    These people aren't cheap. But they'll give you what you need, and they won't leave you hanging.

    Here's my theory...

    The poor-quality writers are thinking about themselves when they write. They think, "Gee, if I just churn out a gazillion articles a day, I'll really have it made." Of course churning out a gazillion articles doesn't leave time for good research, careful work, and pesky things like good sentence structure.

    Then there are the good writers. They're thinking about YOUR customers when they're writing your article. They're thinking about what they can add into your article that will make you look like an expert -- even a hero -- to your customers. They're thinking about how they can get your customers to take a specific action.

    Yep, I think that's worth the extra charge.

    Cheers,
    Becky
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581553].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Problem is that a lot of noobs are on a limited budget, so they rightfully try and find value for money.

      There are a few around who have good quality, but many miss deadlines.

      That said, you should always get a sample first.

      ... Go Tina... Go Tina!
      Signature
      Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
      You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581559].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    Ha!
    Most Writting Services On This Site Are Laughable!
    Are you talking about writing services?

    Anyways, you may have been cheap, and went with the cheaper writers, you pay for what you receive... If you pay $10 for a writer, for 500 words, you'll probably get a not-well-researched article, but say you pay tpw $150 for that amount of words, you'd probably get a kick-butt 1000 word article... That would make you money!

    I'm not promoting anyone.

    Caleb
    Signature

    Caleb Spilchen

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581568].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

      Anyways, you may have been cheap, and went with the cheaper writers, you pay for what you receive... If you pay $10 for a writer, for 500 words, you'll probably get a not-well-researched article, but say you pay tpw $150 for that amount of words, you'd probably get a kick-butt 1000 word article... That would make you money!

      Ah Caleb... I don't ghost write for others anymore...

      But you are right to point out that I did charge $150 an article and get it, when I finally quit writing for others...


      p.s. Tina Golden is here: http://www.warriorforum.com/members/...terprises.html
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581576].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Ah Caleb... I don't ghost write for others anymore...

        But you are right to point out that I did charge $150 an article and get it, when I finally threw the towel in on writing...
        I know that ... I'm just using you as the example... ... How are you today Bill?

        Caleb
        Signature

        Caleb Spilchen

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581582].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jeremiah Walsh
    You get what you pay for. I have had Justin Jordan write an article for me and it was fantastic. There is a reason why someone is only charging $5 for an article... that is because they aren't selling with quality... so they need to sell based on price.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581590].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Matt.Lake
    From another angle, I find it quite frustrating as an article writer myself. Because so many writers are willing to work for so cheap, it sets the expectations low in terms of what people expect to pay.

    Only in an Internet marketing forum would people even expect to pay $5 for an article!

    I often have people that tell me I'm out of their price range, and that's fair enough, but I often wonder how much an article is really "worth" to them in the long run.

    Many people think they're "saving money" by going with a cheaper writer, but I think the truth is they're jeapodizing their results. How much could a GOOD article potentially MAKE them?

    And I consider myself no where near the "high end" price of articles.

    You get what you pay for!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581609].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Matt.Lake View Post

      From another angle, I find it quite frustrating as an article writer myself. Because so many writers are willing to work for so cheap, it sets the expectations low in terms of what people expect to pay.
      Indeed.

      Originally Posted by Matt.Lake View Post

      Only in an Internet marketing forum would people even expect to pay $5 for an article!
      And that's only because their understanding of what the word "article" refers to is so hugely different from that of any reasonable writer's.

      And that, in turn, is because they're following a model of what they think of as "article marketing", which is a hit-and-run, fast-traffic, high-CTR (if they're lucky), fast-sales, backlink-like-crazy, rinse-and-repeat model of "article marketing" which really doesn't work too well for most people, who will never develop any true residual income from it, or actually "build a business" at all.

      And that, in turn, is because that's the model of "article marketing" that many (not all!) of the threads, guidebooks, WSO's and general forum chat are teaching/advising.

      And in that model of "article marketing", an article is little (if anything) more than "a chunk of text to be used for getting some fast traffic via SEO, and for backlinking".

      There's a whole other world of article marketing out there, of which many people are just entirely unaware. A world that doesn't depend only on article directories and Google.

      The last time we had a serious, long discussion about "the price of articles", there was an "article writer" in the thread explaining why nobody should ever pay more than $10 for an article, and that $20 was "ridiculous". These people - whose primary intention in posting is presumably a promotionally motivated one - just have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

      I'm not at all surprised that Bill used to charge $150 for an article. And I'm not surprised that he used to get it (because the customers paying those prices for articles - of whom there are many - understand what they're buying and why, and keep returning for more of them, because they know something that others don't). And I'm not surprised that you don't see so many writers advertising or promoting their services in that price-bracket: that's because the competent ones are fully booked by returning customers without needing to promote their services very much.

      So the writing services on this site aren't really all that "laughable" at all: they're simply catering to their proprietors' perception of the market here for writing services. (Those are bad clients to be chasing, too, because most of them never become long-term customers for all the obvious reasons).

      I'm "just saying".
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581702].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Matt.Lake
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Indeed.

        And that's only because their understanding of what the word "article" refers to is so hugely different from that of any reasonable writer's.

        And that, in turn, is because they're following a model of what they think of as "article marketing", which is a hit-and-run, fast-traffic, high-CTR (if they're lucky), fast-sales, backlink-like-crazy, rinse-and-repeat model of "article marketing" which really doesn't work too well for most people, who will never develop any true residual income from it, or actually "build a business" at all.

        And that, in turn, is because that's the model of "article marketing" that many (not all!) of the threads, guidebooks, WSO's and general forum chat are teaching/advising.

        And in that model of "article marketing", an article is little (if anything) more than "a chunk of text to be used for getting some fast traffic via SEO, and for backlinking".

        There's a whole other world of article marketing out there, of which many people are just entirely unaware. A world that doesn't depend only on article directories and Google.
        Couldn't agree more.

        What gets me is that if they didn't carry out such an approach to article marketing, then they'd realise how "cheap" even a $100 article can be. (In terms of what it can make you.)

        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


        I'm not at all surprised that Bill used to charge $150 for an article. And I'm not surprised that he used to get it (because the customers paying those prices for articles - of whom there are many - understand what they're buying and why, and keep returning for more of them, because they know something that others don't).
        It's just a shame there aren't more of these people on the forum. I understand there are many but at the same time it seems to be a very small percentage.

        I'd be interested to know Alexa, did you find most of your high paying clients here on this forum? Or did you have better luck elsewhere?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581925].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author dbarnum
          Matt and other writers reading this thread - -and even those who hire writers,

          We get plenty of clients who pay more for content here, too, not just low rates. Many have paid 3- and 4-digits, and still do. The buyers often come from this forum, and from Elance, locally from web searches, event marketing and networking, articles and press releases and other avenues.

          Tips to get these:

          - Educate your prospects and clients. Let them know you have a variety of levels of content, not just basic pieces for cheap. Let them know you can dig in and add much more development, in-depth research, quotes, etc. and develop professional full-length pieces that could be published by top media, etc. And share the value of this with them including samples and case studies.

          - Writing is a business, like other niches. Showcase what you can offer, including your own writing background with professional resume. And communicate via work proposals and interaction. There doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all, and there isn't, actually. Shoot for long-term business growth with clients. That's key.

          - Don’t be afraid to team up and offer video / audio components with your projects and submission services. This is like offering fries with your sandwich. This shows you care about the content being put to use right away, and an interest to help more with your client’s business.
          Signature
          Get customized help:100+ Ways / Support / Warrior4Hire Specials!



          Save & Share: Best Buys / Top Tasks / blog / MAP / Recurring $
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582040].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Let's get real - if you were willing to pay higher prices you would have hired writers with a solid reputation and paid their fees.

            You didn't - you hired people with no country listed - with less than a dozen posts here - at low fees. You got what you paid for.

            You got a good press release and submission for $30? The last two press releases I wrote cost the buyer over $100 each (no submission included). You got a deal.

            Most IMers don't need high end content - so they look for low cost. That's fine - and it's why I don't advertise here. I seldom write in the "IM" niche.

            It may take several tries to find a writer you are satisfied with - but I KNOW there are good writers here who advertise in the for hire section. Choose people who have been around for a while instead of those who joined only to make some fast money from members here.

            kay
            Signature
            Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

            Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582113].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Matt.Lake View Post

          I'd be interested to know Alexa, did you find most of your high paying clients here on this forum? Or did you have better luck elsewhere?
          I used to have a lot of content on my "Alexa Writes" site (I removed it all half-way through last year when I decided - provisionally - that I'd rather spend my time writing them all for myself and using them to build up my own business rather than anyone else's. I'm mentioning this partly to clarify - in case anyone wondered - that I'm not accepting new clients at the moment and my motivation for posting is in no way promotional! ).

          I "promoted" that site with sig-file links here and in several other forums (where I made some posts, but very few indeed by comparison with my garrulous input here!), and a few little reviews and backlinks from existing clients' and friends' websites.

          I had (by article-writing standards) a small number of clients - but I kept them all, and they came back for more, once they appreciated (from their bank-balance) the significant, albeit more gradual, benefits of writing for "targeted syndication" rather than for fast traffic and fast backlinks. And that was enough for me to making most of what most article writers would call "a living".

          I got into online writing through offline writing/editing, which is, of course, generally far better paid - and at the time it didn't occur to me that my prices were "too high". I saw people selling articles for $10, of course (you can't not be aware of that) but always assumed they were a different kind of article aimed primarily at generating backlinks and for other Google-dependent marketing.

          I had a rule that I wouldn't take an initial order from a new client for fewer than 3 articles, and wanted a detailed discussion with them on how they were going to use the articles, and was totally open, direct and honest in explaining to all my initial clients that my motivation for maximising my input into that aspect of their business (rather than being "just the writer") was that I knew I'd only be keeping them as long-term, often-returning clients if they got the maximum possible mileage out of what I produced for them. Most were willing to listen (I think because I was initially charging $45 for an article (after warming up with a few at $25 each, which, with hindsight, was unnecessary and a mistake), then quite soon $55 and $65, and they expected "advice" as well as writing for that sort of price!).

          I made as sure as I could that every article I produced was aimed at webmasters browsing EZA for content, the desired outcome being that people with authority sites in the client's niche would look at it and say "Oh wow - I definitely want this one on my site!".

          I think there are different ways to achieve that outcome, depending on one's writing style/techniques: mine is to be provocative, iconoclastic and as entertaining as possible. Those have really become my three "specific hallmarks and targets" for articles. But there are other ways, too.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582055].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            First, thanks to those who had kind words for me - that was a nice thing to wake up to.

            Second, whoever said the OP should advertise that he's paying $25 per article is completely wrong. What will happen is a bunch of $5 writers will apply and say their willing to do it for $25 but you end up with the same crap that you would have paid $5 for.

            Whenever you hire a new writer, you should go through a screening process. Looking at samples is a start but I've seen many really terrible writers have awesome samples - they paid a $25 writer for "their" sample work.

            Start by engaging the writer in an email or IM conversation. Ask open-ended questions that they will have to use sentences to answer. Much of the time, you will eliminate the ones that have lied and said they are native English because it will show.

            Then start by giving them one article to write. See if that article measures up. If it's small things that seem off to you, point them out and see how the writer handles the criticism. Personally, I'm not perfect and sometimes a sentence will strike a client wrong - I have no issue at all with revising the article.

            Another thing that I've found through the years of hiring writers for my own team is that most writers are not versatile. I have some terrific article writers on my team now but I only have one that can do a decent landing page or review. I've always been fairly versatile and assumed that all decent writer were the same. I was wrong.

            One more point, people who hire the writers from the upper end of the pay scale waste that money more often than not but using the article only once. If you pay for high quality writing, the smart thing to do is to repurpose that work as many times as you can to maximize the return on your investment.

            Tina

            P.S. I had to add this in - the OP worded his post badly and painted all with the same brush but I have to agree with him. The majority of the "writers" in the Warrior for Hire section are not professional writers and many should find another line of work. There are some incredible writers on this forum, don't get me wrong, but lately there has been an influx of so-called writers from another board who can't write their way out of a paper bag. But I can't feel sorry for buyers that don't have the common sense to know that a real writer, with real skills, is not going to write for them for $4 or $5.
            Signature
            Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
            Fast & Easy Content Creation
            ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582126].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author sergi
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            I used to have a lot of content on my "Alexa Writes" site (I removed it all half-way through last year when I decided - provisionally - that I'd rather spend my time writing them all for myself and using them to build up my own business rather than anyone else's. I'm mentioning this partly to clarify - in case anyone wondered - that I'm not accepting new clients at the moment and my motivation for posting is in no way promotional! ).

            I "promoted" that site with sig-file links here and in several other forums (where I made some posts, but very few indeed by comparison with my garrulous input here!), and a few little reviews and backlinks from existing clients' and friends' websites.

            I had (by article-writing standards) a small number of clients - but I kept them all, and they came back for more, once they appreciated (from their bank-balance) the significant, albeit more gradual, benefits of writing for "targeted syndication" rather than for fast traffic and fast backlinks. And that was enough for me to making most of what most article writers would call "a living".

            I got into online writing through offline writing/editing, which is, of course, generally far better paid - and at the time it didn't occur to me that my prices were "too high". I saw people selling articles for $10, of course (you can't not be aware of that) but always assumed they were a different kind of article aimed primarily at generating backlinks and for other Google-dependent marketing.

            I had a rule that I wouldn't take an initial order from a new client for fewer than 3 articles, and wanted a detailed discussion with them on how they were going to use the articles, and was totally open, direct and honest in explaining to all my initial clients that my motivation for maximising my input into that aspect of their business (rather than being "just the writer") was that I knew I'd only be keeping them as long-term, often-returning clients if they got the maximum possible mileage out of what I produced for them. Most were willing to listen (I think because I was initially charging $45 for an article (after warming up with a few at $25 each, which, with hindsight, was unnecessary and a mistake), then quite soon $55 and $65, and they expected "advice" as well as writing for that sort of price!).

            I made as sure as I could that every article I produced was aimed at webmasters browsing EZA for content, the desired outcome being that people with authority sites in the client's niche would look at it and say "Oh wow - I definitely want this one on my site!".

            I think there are different ways to achieve that outcome, depending on one's writing style/techniques: mine is to be provocative, iconoclastic and as entertaining as possible. Those have really become my three "specific hallmarks and targets" for articles. But there are other ways, too.
            I love your style of writing Alexa. I am from Barcelona (Spain) and need a writer like you. Would you be open to writing for a small project with big potential?

            Thanks.
            Signature

            "Don't strive to be a man of success, but rather a man of value". Einstein.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2586201].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
          I guess it's all about what people are looking for.

          If it's a chunk of writing that includes the specified keywords a certain number of times in order to get backlinks, I guess any kind of writing might do.

          But there is this consideration:

          I personably wouldn't want to see my name attached to anything but high quality articles... and neither would most business owners who realize that they'll be judged by the quality of the articles published under their byline.

          And, of course, high quality articles have lots of additional benefits, from making you look good and establishing your expertise to helping you sell stuff or getting people to opt in to your list (which ultimately means helping you sell stuff too).

          I was thinking about posting a Warriors for Hire ad for my writing services, but when I saw all those 5 buck article offers, I decided to pass.

          Then again, reading this thread is making me reconsider...

          Elisabeth
          Signature

          FREE Report: 5 Ways To Grow Your Affiliate Income

          Let Me Help You Sell: Sales Letters, Email Series, Pre-Sell Reports... PM me & we'll talk!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582368].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
    It's true, you get what you pay for.

    However quite often a higher price wont indicate quality.

    It's the same as some $20 being worth more than some $2000 courses.

    You should keep testing different sources of articles. Once you find one you are happy with then stick to them.

    -Simon

    P.S. My personal recommendation is Gian Sim (that is his warrior name). He does very good quality articles and a decent price. He also offers as quick as 4 hour turn around. (No, I am not affiliated to him in any way.)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581660].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

    Don't waste your money with most of the content writers on this site. Most of them aren't english speakers and the articles, press releases and such in my opinion are crap! I wasted my money on articles and press releases and the wordage was that of a 9 yr old with mild retardation.

    Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!

    Maybe I should charge $5 per article, even me with the worst grammar and spelling skills in the world can produce more legible content!

    I do have to say the person who did my first press release was qualified and did a great job, but most I feel in my opinion have no business charging money for their writing services!
    You get what you pay for. There are a lot of good to great writers on this forum. Pay for monkeys ... get monkeys.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581665].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
    Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post


    Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!

    Maybe I should charge $5 per article, even me with the worst grammar and spelling skills in the world can produce more legible content!
    If you didn't check their writing samples first, investigate their reviews, and thoroughly question/interview the persons you were hiring them before hiring them, then you don't have a leg to stand.

    There's no reason not to have some inclination of the type of articles you are going to get before you order them. If what you got was completely different than what you expected, then return the rights to the article, get a refund and move on.

    Honestly, if someone is having that much of an issue finding the right writers, the issue may not be with the writers.
    Signature

    "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581673].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    You get what you pay for.

    I'd never write an article for only $5 and the people who will, probably aren't native or accomplished English writers.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581678].message }}
  • Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

    Don't waste your money with most of the content writers on this site. Most of them aren't english speakers and the articles, press releases and such in my opinion are crap! I wasted my money on articles and press releases and the wordage was that of a 9 yr old with mild retardation.

    Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!

    Maybe I should charge $5 per article, even me with the worst grammar and spelling skills in the world can produce more legible content!

    I do have to say the person who did my first press release was qualified and did a great job, but most I feel in my opinion have no business charging money for their writing services!
    You know what they say, right? You pay peanuts, you get...

    BTW, why would anyone in the western world write good articles for 5 bucks? When you add up all the time spent on writing, research, communication / selling etc you're looking at a REALLY lousy hourly pay. Ten articles a day is a lot of work for 50 bucks. And you're still not even close to making enough to live on.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581680].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    So you're using your experience with a handful of people to characterize MOST of the content writers on this site?

    How very thoughtful of you.

    I tell ya what...why don't you psot a detailed summary of your due diligence process, hiring process, & job description process before you go around proclaiming that MOST Warrior content writers put out crap.

    I don't write content for others. But this thread kinda irks me. It's disrespectful at best. And yeah, I know you tossed in the "I'm not saying all..." comment at the end. But by that time the damage is done. You're using the Warrior Forum to discourage people from using the services of a whole group of people who pay to advertise here. Not cool. To tell you the truth, I figured this thread would have been nuked by now.

    Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

    Don't waste your money with most of the content writers on this site. Most of them aren't english speakers and the articles, press releases and such in my opinion are crap! I wasted my money on articles and press releases and the wordage was that of a 9 yr old with mild retardation.

    Anyone else here dissatisfied with allot of the content writers? I'm not saying all are unqualified but almost every single one I've dealt with is!
    Signature
    "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
    ~ Zig Ziglar
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581753].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
      When I mean by "Most" I'm mostly referring to the foreign writers from countries where English is not the native language.

      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      So you're using your experience with a handful of people to characterize MOST of the content writers on this site?

      How very thoughtful of you.

      I tell ya what...why don't you psot a detailed summary of your due diligence process, hiring process, & job description process before you go around proclaiming that MOST Warrior content writers put out crap.

      I don't write content for others. But this thread kinda irks me. It's disrespectful at best. And yeah, I know you tossed in the "I'm not saying all..." comment at the end. But by that time the damage is done. You're using the Warrior Forum to discourage people from using the services of a whole group of people who pay to advertise here. Not cool. To tell you the truth, I figured this thread would have been nuked by now.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581788].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        OK, fine...but you may want to choose your words a little more carefully in the future when you start a thread of this type.

        There are a lot of good people who could miss out on future projects because of the way you phrased the OP.

        Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

        When I mean by "Most" I'm mostly referring to the foreign writers from countries where English is not the native language.
        Signature
        "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
        ~ Zig Ziglar
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581843].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Dave,

        If you're willing to pay $25 an article why don't you advertise this fact in the relevant place?

        I'm sure you'll get some very talented applicants.

        (now, where did I put my old article portfolio . . . )


        Martin
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581873].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dbarnum
      While I feel some of what Lance mentions above, just want to point out that this is a learning curve for those who do work with writers. Granted that tone could be better, I agree there, too. But hey, if we can help point out industry issues as you did in your post even, great. Glad you posted that, as forums are places where each member is a writer... so heads up forum writers, please:

      Let's post in a more friendly way, please.

      When I mean by "Most" I'm mostly referring to the foreign writers from countries where English is not the native language.
      And for those reading, where this is a learning curve, please note:.

      Writers are people, and there are many here who are more than willing to work with you. Review my post above and take time to work together, where you spot potential, and you will be well rewarded. Been there, done that...and still do. We work with writers here all the time, natives and non-natives, and nationality often makes zero difference. We've actually spotted the worst content from native USA writers who've lived in the USA all their lives.

      With the Internet helping others connect, I recommend giving people a try, regardless of race, country of origin, etc. From lots of experience, I can confirm that you will find many wonderful writers here in the forum from all nations for your USA English and other projects.
      Signature
      Get customized help:100+ Ways / Support / Warrior4Hire Specials!



      Save & Share: Best Buys / Top Tasks / blog / MAP / Recurring $
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581813].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    I think all generalizations are wrong.
    Signature

    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2581824].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author snapcontent
    It could explain why more and more people are turning to packaged solutions for their 'writting' needs.
    Signature
    Autoblogging with unique content and comments.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582086].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mangozoom
    What pre-checking did you do?

    For example

    1) Do you view samples of previous work?
    2) Insist work must be copyscaped?
    3) Insist it must make sense and be spell checked?
    4) Agree stage payments?

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582102].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
      The samples looked great. Like someone said previously the writing was likely outsourced for cheap so this person can make a profit. I did not see if the work was copyscaped, yes I went trough the article and had them fix the mistakes multiple times. The last time I checked there was 47 mistakes and i got frustrated and did all the corrections myself.

      I made the payment upfront, likely my biggest mistake.

      I've learned my lesson, only get articles from Americans or native english speaking writers.

      Originally Posted by Mangozoom View Post

      What pre-checking did you do?

      For example

      1) Do you view samples of previous work?
      2) Insist work must be copyscaped?
      3) Insist it must make sense and be spell checked?
      4) Agree stage payments?

      John
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583204].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    P.S. I had to add this in - the OP worded his post badly and painted all with the same brush but I have to agree with him. The majority of the "writers" in the Warrior for Hire section are not professional writers and many should find another line of work. There are some incredible writers on this forum, don't get me wrong, but lately there has been an influx of so-called writers from another board who can't write their way out of a paper bag. But I can't feel sorry for buyers that don't have the common sense to know that a real writer, with real skills, is not going to write for them for $4 or $5.
    Yes, I think one of the problems is that a lot of people think that anyone can be a writer. So people hire themselves out to make some money and don't really even know (or care) what it takes to write a decent article.

    Of course, I might be guilty of actually perpetuating that since when people start those "I need $xxx in y days" threads I always tell them to do some writing - perhaps I shouldn't do that!

    Lee
    Signature
    Gone Fishing
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582252].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I rarely hire out writing, but when I do, I tend to invest in proven writers I trust. And those usually have more questions for me than "how many words and what keywords"...

      I learned that price alone doesn't guarantee quality, so the "you get what you pay for" mantra isn't entirely accurate. Sometimes you end up paying more for garbage, but that's what refunds are for.

      What I've found over the years is that there are two ways to get quality craftsmanship, in writing or anything else. You can hire craftsmen with a history of providing the quality level you want, and paying them accordingly. Or you can search through the muck for the 'diamonds in the rough' and grow with them.

      You might have to shovel a lot of muck to find a few little nuggets of gold, but when you do, the nuggets are worth far more than the muck. That's why gold is sold by the ounce and fertilizer by the ton.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582386].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        If one more person says "you get what you pay for" I'm going to dutch oven myself.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583629].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          If one more person says "you get what you pay for" I'm going to dutch oven myself.
          You get what you pay for.



          That was such a lob that I can only assume that you already ducth ovened yourself as soon as you submitted your reply.
          Signature
          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
          ~ Zig Ziglar
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583634].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author ccd
            I'm a writer, and a good one (if I may say so myself). And at one point I was considering hiring out my services on WF. But I changed my mind after observing the prevailing rates being charged. I have better (and hopefully more profitable!) things to do with my time than churn out quality writing for 5 bucks a page.

            So I'll echo the prevailing opinion in this thread -- ya gets what ya pays for (If you're lucky!).
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583676].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          If one more person says "you get what you pay for" I'm going to dutch oven myself.
          Can we get video proof?

          Tina
          Signature
          Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
          Fast & Easy Content Creation
          ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583654].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            If one more person says "you get what you pay for" I'm going to dutch oven myself.
            Can we get video proof?

            Tina

            I'd pay to see that Jeremy... LOL

            Tease: You get what you pay for!
            Signature
            Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
            Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583675].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author edc3076
        If you guys are looking for a good article that is original and is seo optimized my wife is an excellent writer. She will write 500-600 word count articles for $25. She will do an article for one person on the house for a review. She will need your keyword which will be optimized at 2.5-3% in density and several lsi keywords that you want included. If you want a h1,h2,h3 we will need to know that also. If you are looking for a $5 ARTICLE YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. We run all the articles through seo pressor for optimal seo and the content is totally unique, NO SPUNNY STUFF, LOL who wants a freebie.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2592070].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MilesT
    I don't know why this is a big shock. YOU'RE PAYING $5 AN ARTICLE!!! It's like going to Walmart to buy 'fine china.' You'll certainly get plenty of things made in China...

    If you truly value your content then hire native writers who have a clue and pay their rate. Never understood why people buy content "on the cheap" and then wonder why their conversion rates aren't above .8%
    Signature
    http://www.RedHeadline.com
    Internet Marketing's Top Daily News (Updated today)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582433].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    'Iconoclastic'

    What a great word. I think it qualifies for 'word of the week!

    Thanks Alexa for using it. Made my day.

    That word was worth $45 by itself. Lol.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582512].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jobeyonekenobi
    Hey guys - I dip in and out of WF from time to time, and as most of you can see - long time lurker, not so much with the posting.
    In fact, the reason why I am inclined to give my $0.002 is about the article writing. I write articles over at one of the well known article writing websites, and considered myself to be rather lucky to be bringing in about $0.015 a word. The average 500 word article earning me $7.50.
    You are seriously telling me that I could earn more by going freelance, per se?
    This thread is a bit of a wake up call for me - I thought top quality was always inferred, no matter what the price.....for my average 500 word article, I have the main keyword + normally about 4 others to fit in, or need to go and research long tail keywords and get them fitted in. To be honest, I can't usually fit all of that into a meaningful (as in flowing and interesting) article, and end up going to about 600 - 650.
    If I knew that having a modicum of proficiency and the ability to meet a deadline was such an in demand skill set, I would be touting my own services, sans middleman!

    Guys, I know this post has been O/T, but thank you to the OP and the rest of you for opening my eyes to what seems to be a very real need!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582560].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author GameVoid
      Originally Posted by Jobeyonekenobi View Post

      Guys, I know this post has been O/T, but thank you to the OP and the rest of you for opening my eyes to what seems to be a very real need!
      This is also part of the "problem".

      I frequent a lot of writer boards and there are many, many, MANY good writers out there who jump at a chance to get $5.00 for an article.

      Why? Because they don't know any better.

      Most writers don't think like a business person. They find someone willing to pay for their work, no matter how small, and they are happy because they are getting "exposure". They don't spend a lot of time thinking about how that $5.00 article is going to get used. They don't wonder if somehow the person who bought the article is going to turn around and get $20.00 worth of value out of it. They sit in their living room cranking out articles for Suite101, AssociatedContent, and places like that for less than a penny per word and are happy to do it.

      The Internet has more or less turned writing into a commodity, not an art form. Instead of words being bought and then proudly enshrined in the pages of a magazine or book, they are instead traded back and forth like hog bellies on the Chicago market.

      There are some people who still demand the choice cuts, but much of the internet population is happy with a decent sirloin and the remaining will settle for cube steak.

      Anyone can make cube steak, and many willing to buy it, so you have tons of it flooding the Internet, driving prices down across the board for all selections, making it difficult for decent writers to find a place to peddle the superior grade of product.
      Signature
      Professional Writing Services Content creation, article rewriting, sales pages, marketing materials and much more.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583210].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Wayside
      Originally Posted by Jobeyonekenobi View Post

      I write articles over at one of the well known article writing websites, and considered myself to be rather lucky to be bringing in about $0.015 a word. The average 500 word article earning me $7.50.
      You are seriously telling me that I could earn more by going freelance, per se?
      You could more than double that just by moving to a better content mill. Most of the articles I write are around 350 words and pay $15.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2584388].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Megan Elizabeth
    You're right, there are a lot of people on here whose first language is NOT English and/or have very poor performance when it comes to writing. I think before you recruit someone to do your writing, you should ask if English is their primary language, and if in a private message they are unable to make coherent sentences and have numerous grammatical errors, it's a pretty safe bet that you'd be wasting money.

    On the other hand, it also depends on how much you're paying per article. If you're paying less than $5 an article, chances are very high that you'll get someone who can't write and are probably just looking to make a quick buck! Quality articles usually start at $10, and that's very reasonable!

    Very simply, "you get what you pay for"

    Megan Elizabeth
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582714].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tht222
    When you pay $5 per 500 words article, all you are going to get is SE food - if you want quality, be prepared to pay at least 2c per word and even that is a bargain!
    Signature

    Keyword Snooper - fast and super-affordable keyword tool

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2582766].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    I have used quite a few writers I found here and have been very pleased with the results. I guess you get what you pay for.

    Will
    Signature
    Whether you are a Reader, an Author or a Website Owner, we have something for you!

    Books that Inspire
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583172].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Its been quite a while since I have enjoyed reading a thread, as much as I have this one. Right off the bat I want to thank the OP, although he stirred up a bit of a hornets nest, controversy is good for the brain.

    There have been some very well thought out post here, but most of all, what really stood out are the ones which gave invaluable suggestions for any Warrior considering writing of any type. Please take the time to go back and read the postings from Alexa Smith, Rebeca Hagel, Kay King, Tina Golden and all the others in this thread.

    These folks gave phenomenal article writing advice, but they also gave advice on how to hire a writer, suggestions on ways for writers to look at the way they may want to run their own writing business.

    Thank you to everyone who posted in here. It has been my pleasure to read the entire thread.

    Ken Leatherman

    The Old Geezer
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583192].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author l_christopher
    Idk...I think you have to start somewhere. And until you get a solid reputation, I believe it's good to set the bar low.

    If there were some type of gatekeepers (or barriers) to writing then maybe the prices could be propped up. I like the fact that I'm, hopefully, over-giving value to the people that try my services.

    When I think I have enough testimonials, I'll push it up. My first 3 people were free and I just got one testimonial back from a paid customer.

    Why not start low and give yourself a raise AFTER you've proven yourself?
    Signature

    $10 Articles. Slightly higher price and the quality is still great. PM for details.
    Please click HERE for testimonials.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583320].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nursewriter
      Originally Posted by l_christopher View Post

      Idk...I think you have to start somewhere. And until you get a solid reputation, I believe it's good to set the bar low.

      If there were some type of gatekeepers (or barriers) to writing then maybe the prices could be propped up. I like the fact that I'm, hopefully, over-giving value to the people that try my services.

      When I think I have enough testimonials, I'll push it up. My first 3 people were free and I just got one testimonial back from a paid customer.

      Why not start low and give yourself a raise AFTER you've proven yourself?
      I think you have to be very careful with this. You can start out writing for dirt cheap prices and build a significant customer base. However, once you try to raise your prices, all of your current customers will quickly disappear.

      Then you are stuck trying to find a set new of customers that are willing to pay higher prices.

      The assumption that your work is so great your current customers will gladly pay higher prices is totally false.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583526].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    Just a question, as this thread has been a little bit of a wake up call for me.

    Is there room for 'people who can write' as apposed to 'writers'?

    The distinction is 'people who can write' are native English speaking, above average grammar and punctuation skills. They are hard workers who put in a large amount of time doing research, understand SEO principles like keyword density LSI etc ...

    'Writers' natural, talented word-smiths if you will. They do all the basics mentioned above, but far better, and then their gift with words gives the added dimension that many of you have spoken about.

    I have been making my few dollars as one of these low cost writers with great reviews. I always want to over deliver. and by being competitive in price I feel I can do that... But threads like this and others I have read make me wonder if a) I am in the right service field or b) should charge more.

    Great thread not so much the OP , but the other posts that followed were great, and proved the high quality of writer this forum has to offer.
    Signature

    Help me give my children a better future gofund.me/xge53k8

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583332].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver View Post

      I have been making my few dollars as one of these low cost writers with great reviews. I always want to over deliver. and by being competitive in price I feel I can do that... But threads like this and others I have read make me wonder if a) I am in the right service field or b) should charge more.
      Hmmmmm ...

      It's about "the markets in which you choose to compete", in my opinion.

      Writers' incomes are not determined solely by their writing skills, but in great part by their marketing skills, too.

      Many people with genuinely valuable writing skills start off with very low-paid projects, thinking that this will help them to move on to higher-paid projects. It usually doesn't, at all. It's really important, I think, to avoid at the outset the mistake of imagining that it's sensible to "start off by writing for low prices" with a view to raising your prices after clients have seen what you can produce. When writing for online markets, it simply doesn't work that way: when you write for low prices you attract clients whose primary motivation is to pay low prices, and you lose almost all of them when you increase prices later.

      You may well find some/all of these resources helpful:-

      Jennifer Mattern's blog

      Carol Tice's blog

      Freelance writing jobs (minmum payment requirement of $50 per article to be listed there)

      Free report on how to attract new freelance writing clients during a recession

      The Renegade Writer Blog

      The "Irreverent Freelancer" blog
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583414].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
        Easy for you to say ... Oh! talented one... we can't all snap crackle and pop... Some of us have to be corn flakes

        Thanks again Alexa.

        I think my biggest issue is self confidence and a fear of rejection. A low price feels like good insurance against both.



        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Hmmmmm ...

        It's about "the markets in which you choose to compete", in my opinion.

        Writers' incomes are not determined solely by their writing skills, but in great part by their marketing skills, too.

        Many people with genuinely valuable writing skills start off with very low-paid projects, thinking that this will help them to move on to higher-paid projects. It usually doesn't, at all. It's really important, I think, to avoid at the outset the mistake of imagining that it's sensible to "start off by writing for low prices" with a view to raising your prices after clients have seen what you can produce. When writing for online markets, it simply doesn't work that way: when you write for low prices you attract clients whose primary motivation is to pay low prices, and you lose almost all of them when you increase prices later.

        You may well find some/all of these resources helpful:-

        Jennifer Mattern's blog

        Carol Tice's blog

        Freelance writing jobs (minmum payment requirement of $50 per article to be listed there)

        Free report on how to attract new freelance writing clients during a recession

        The Renegade Writer Blog

        The "Irreverent Freelancer" blog
        Signature

        Help me give my children a better future gofund.me/xge53k8

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583467].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Originally Posted by l_christopher View Post

          Why not start low and give yourself a raise AFTER you've proven yourself?
          While this sounds good in theory, it rarely works that way. What happens is when you raise your rate, you lose the majority of your customers and have to start marketing yourself all over again to the next level of buyers. Start off charging what you're worth and what you can make a living wage with.

          Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

          I must be having really bad luck. I just got a batch of articles I paid $38 for and I have to say every single article is utter crap, junk, trash! I would be embarrassed to put those out there. It looks like they made one article maybe two that are original and the rest look like they stuck the article into a blender, nothing makes sense!

          I read all the reviews and I make sure they have nothing but positive feedback. I only go with people who have very active sales threads with great reviews and tons of satisfied customers.
          When you say "batch of articles", how many did you get for $38? If you got 10 articles for that price, I can only wonder what you expected to get back?

          Positive feedback means little unless you know who gave the feedback. Instead of looking for who has the most feedback, look for feedback from those that you know would recognize decent writing.

          I've seen several threads in the Warrior for Hire section where the sales post is full of errors, clearly not native English and doesn't read well - yet they have plenty of great feedback. Frankly, that just means that a lot of customers have very low expectations.

          The majority of buyers would not recognize good quality writing if it bit them on the arse. For the most part, this is quite obvious if you read their feedback posts.

          Plus, the best writers will often have less feedback because their customers come back over and over again. I have relatively little feedback on my threads but I am always busy and often turn customers away or have to put them on a waiting list. Why? Because 75% of my customers are repeat buyers, regular as clockwork.

          Tina
          Signature
          Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
          Fast & Easy Content Creation
          ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583515].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

            The majority of buyers would not recognize good quality writing if it bit them on the arse.
            It warms my heart to see North Americans reject the bland and flaccid word "ass" in favour of its red-blooded, British equivalent.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583553].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
              Originally Posted by John Henderson View Post

              It warms my heart to see North Americans reject the bland and flaccid word "ass" in favour of its red-blooded, British equivalent.
              Fair enough. Nouw, if we could just you guys tou droup that superfluous 'u'.

              ~M~
              Signature

              "Ich bin en fuego!"
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583606].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author nursewriter
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post


            The majority of buyers would not recognize good quality writing if it bit them on the arse. For the most part, this is quite obvious if you read their feedback posts.

            Tina
            I believe this is a huge problem.....If you are not an avid reader, and you spend most or your time on forums and other social sites, then how can you recognize good writing?

            I swear I saw a post on Warriors for Hire from a guy that could not even put together a coherent sentence in his ad. This guy was obviously non-native. I can't remember exactly how much he was charging for articles but it was very cheap.

            He had dozens upon dozens of testimonials and orders coming in.

            I just couldn't understand how anyone who read his post could in good faith let him write for them. I wouldn't have let write a grocery list for me.....let alone an article.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583570].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver View Post

          I think my biggest issue is self confidence and a fear of rejection. A low price feels like good insurance against both.
          Cathy, double your prices. Try it for 30 days. If you suffer irreparable damage to your self confidence due to exorbitant rejection, the "insurance" provided by charging low prices will still be there waiting for you. If it works, you make the same money from half the effort or twice the money from the same effort. The potential long term upside way outweighs the potential (and very temorpary) downside of rejection, etc. You've got nothing to lose.

          If you try and fail, the rejection, embarassment, etc. isn't permanent. If you never try, your current state will be.
          Signature
          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
          ~ Zig Ziglar
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583571].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
    I must be having really bad luck. I just got a batch of articles I paid $38 for and I have to say every single article is utter crap, junk, trash! I would be embarrassed to put those out there. It looks like they made one article maybe two that are original and the rest look like they stuck the article into a blender, nothing makes sense!

    I read all the reviews and I make sure they have nothing but positive feedback. I only go with people who have very active sales threads with great reviews and tons of satisfied customers.

    I think I may have learned my lesson, write all my articles myself.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583384].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Pauline60
    I have only used one writer from this forum but I found them to be excellent. Articles were in perfect English with no errors at all. Service was quick too.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2583578].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MilesT
    Cathy, you should be charging more, especially since you can put a clear thought on paper and not write with an accent.

    IM'rs who value the products/services they are selling will pay accordingly for good content. *If* I write an article for someone they pay my rate because I deliver the goods that will increase their conversion rates, CTR etc. ... And that's the goal, right?

    I don't even know you but I KNOW you can do it. Seriously, have you read some of your own posts? ... they are good. You sound like a marketer. You're sharp. Risk it. Charge more.

    That said, there are many who don't charge enough and that is because they don't value their work. Its not a supply/demand problem as much as it is a problem between their ears.

    Probably the toughest thing about becoming a successful copywriter is that you have to expose your ability every time you take a project. You can't hide your work and skill level, and even if you're good you still have to justify why you said this, and why didn't you say that etc. It can be an emotional train wreck if you're not ready for it and the thought of exposing who are you are as a professional to a mass audience can be quite daunting.

    You never really know who's "good" until you see their work. Someone suggested an interview process to ferret out their deficiencies. I think that's a great idea. Ask them to tell you about their family, dog, job, and just make them write something! The weaknesses will come out for sure.

    Also, to get out of the $5 rut, read, study and put into practice the words of Clayton Makepeace, Gary Bencivenga and other great copywriters. It'll do a world of good for your skills and build your confidence so you have the guts to seek a higher price for your valuable work.

    I feel like I've been ranting a lot this week. Maybe I need to eat more sweets, or pet more dogs. I dunno.
    Signature
    http://www.RedHeadline.com
    Internet Marketing's Top Daily News (Updated today)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2584163].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author DomenicoGrecojr
      "You get what you pay for!"

      Seriously though, paying low prices and expecting good quality is possible...BUT NOT EASY.

      Just continue to test writers who charge low prices and you will find one that is good. Then continue to hire them.

      It's just like a company hiring a staff. You can offer a low salary and interview tons of people until you find one that is worth much more than what you're paying.

      It's possible but takes a long time and a lot of interviewing.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2584197].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
    Cathy, as someone who regularly loses gigs on the freelance sites because of the rates I charge, give it a shot and you'll see it isn't that crushing to the ego. It can be fun - I keep an eye on my records and I recently had the fastest "bid declined" I've ever had, it took the client less than 5 minutes to tell me my bid was too high. You get 10 free connects a month with Elance, so it won't cost you anything to give it a shot.

    I have a good friend who is extremely experienced in the IM niche, and is a very tidy writer. She finds it a lot harder to get work because there are many people who write in that niche. If you want to set yourself apart, find your unique selling position and market yourself around that.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2584306].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author zenji
    Oh dear...what would you expect from underpaid workers? A great job or just an average one?
    Come on I wouldn't be complaining if I were you!
    Cheap things come at a cost and you should know that if you are a serious businessman / woman.

    Dennis
    Signature

    Please do not use affiliate links in signatures

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2584472].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by zenji View Post

      Cheap things come at a cost and you should know that if you are a serious businessman / woman.
      Does that comment of Dennis's count as "You get what you pay for", Jeremy, or will you let that one pass? Just wondering ...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2584512].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010



    01000111 01100101 01101111 01110010 01100111 01100101 00100000 01010111 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100
    Signature
    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2585161].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010



      01000111 01100101 01101111 01110010 01100111 01100101 00100000 01010111 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100
      George,

      I can't translate it, but I know a certain Big Greek that can and I'm going to tell him to jump right on it. Not you, the translation. :p

      Ken
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2585244].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MilesT
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010



      01000111 01100101 01101111 01110010 01100111 01100101 00100000 01010111 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100
      = "You get what you pay for George Wright"

      I win!
      Crap. I just realized I'm a nerd.
      Now what.
      Signature
      http://www.RedHeadline.com
      Internet Marketing's Top Daily News (Updated today)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2585272].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010



      01000111 01100101 01101111 01110010 01100111 01100101 00100000 01010111 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100
      It was a smack at Jeremy! HAHA

      "You get what you pay for. George Wright"



      -Christian
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2585289].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010



      01000111 01100101 01101111 01110010 01100111 01100101 00100000 01010111 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100
      I knew a girl who had that tattooed on her butt.

      I always did think the George Wright part was slightly suspicious.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2585345].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    As the internet content marketing model has evolved it has
    changed.

    Now, if you publish crap, people won't want to buy your stuff.

    To get good content you either have to create it yourself, which
    is work, or hire it out to people who understand the craft of
    it - and take the time to do it well.

    You're unlikely to get that at $5 or $10 an article.

    This development is actually good for writing as a profession -
    I think maybe marketers will be pulled, kicking and screaming,
    into the realization that meaningful content that doesn't make
    your business appear to be run by idiots cost money because
    it takes time, craftsmanship, and research to create.

    ... and writing professionals are the people you hire to do it.

    I'm not slagging folks who write articles for a few bucks a pop -
    everybody does what they can do to make a dollar.

    You'll struggle however to build any kind of real authority,
    expert positioning, or reader loyalty if you publish thrown-together
    tripe on your sites.

    Sure, there are formulas for writing articles high clickthrough
    articles for EZA and whatnot, but writers who know how to craft
    such tight pieces don't want to do it for peanuts... because we
    don't need to for one reason, and because to do so spells
    B-U-R-N-O-U-T for another.

    ...and that's why you'll be frustrated trying to build a solid
    following publishing hack content.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2585209].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
    You get the quality you're willing to pay for.
    Signature

    Focus+Smart Work+Persistence=Success

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2592419].message }}

Trending Topics