The cost of running Warrior Special Offers now $40. Your thoughts?

by Maddi
523 replies
I don't know if many of you noticed but the cost of running a Warrior Special Offer is now increased to $40 than $20.

I have mixed thoughts on it, but I'm not technically against it.

I think as a community, I'd like to have your views on it.

What do you think of this change? and will it serve the purpose?

Your thoughts?

Maddi Murtaza

Edit: Just checked, the cost of bumping old wso's has increased to $40 too.

Edit:
First time on this thread? I encourage you to read all the replies. Some of the brightest and most successful warriors/marketers have commented with some great tips, advice and point of views on how to look at these changes. Might give you a new perspective on how you approach the WSO section.
#$40 #offers #special #thoughts #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author Owen Smith
    It would have been a little more diginified if he warned members who contribute greatly to this forum and pay the fees of the WSO (which pays the bills)

    And a twofold rise is a little wierd, in my eyes a good move, but badly implemented.
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    • Profile picture of the author admin
      Administrator
      Originally Posted by Owen Smith View Post

      It would have been a little more diginified if he warned members who contribute greatly to this forum and pay the fees of the WSO (which pays the bills)

      And a twofold rise is a little wierd, in my eyes a good move, but badly implemented.

      I'm sorry a technical flaw destroyed my dignity Owen but I did put a large notice at the top of the WSO forum about it. I left for a couple hours and just returned realizing I'm the only one that saw the notice, members couldn't see it.

      No need for it now I suppose.
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      • Profile picture of the author Maddi
        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        I'm sorry a technical flaw destroyed my dignity
        Priceless

        Ah well, like many thought, that wouldn't have been a wise move after all. But no need for it now like you said.

        Maddi
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
          Any speculation on Allen's income from the WSO section is none of our business, and should be irrelevant to this discussion and how we run our businesses.

          A few people seem to think they get to judge whether he's making "too much" money from his own forum or not, or whether he will lose money with the change. I'm sure he's doing just fine either way and can take care of himself, he's a big boy.
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          • Profile picture of the author jkmg
            Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

            Any speculation on Allen's income from the WSO section is none of our business, and should be irrelevant to this discussion and how we run our businesses.

            A few people seem to think they get to judge whether he's making "too much" money from his own forum or not, or whether he will lose money with the change. I'm sure he's doing just fine either way and can take care of himself, he's a big boy.
            This is right on the money! Nice post! I have never seen his integrity challenged anywhere, and how he runs HIS business is irrespective of how we run ours!

            John
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            • Profile picture of the author thriftgirl62
              If you Like the MBO System, then Scream...put your hands in the air and Scream ALLEN SAYS, go ALLEN Chant, Scream, Rock ALLEN SAYS Louder

              MBO = Management By Objective


              Quality WSO'S will naturally rise to the top through honest reviews from purchasers because there will be no bumps sold until at least 36 people have purchased a copy. The final price cannot be increased more than double the early bird special price (if any) for the first 36 sales.

              No more than (4) half-price review copies with a 3-day money back guarantee are allowed for each WSO. Unbiased reviews from Qualified 5-year Warriors in good standing are appreciated for the benefit of everyone without expecting any freebies or brown-nosing from Sellers.

              There will be more than enough natural bumps from purchasers only too happy to share their good fortune. If they choose not to share, then it would appear they have nothing nice to say. Every WSO must have at least (4) reviews tagged to show which ones were for half-price copies of the product.
              • All WSO's require the $40 payment
              • No Bumps before 36 Sales

                Bumps Sold as follows:

              • (5) non-restricted bumps for $100
              • (4) Semi-Restricted Bumps for $100
              • (3) Restricted Bumps for $100
              • (2) Restricted Bumps for $100
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              • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                Originally Posted by thriftgirl62 View Post

                [*] No Bumps before 36 Sales
                Lol, there are several issues - but I'll address this one. What if I'm releasing a very expensive new coaching program limited to 10 buyers from this forum? My offer is usually $200 but I'm letting in 10 people from the WF for $100. I get half my quota and need to bump. How do I get to 36 sales? How do I prove I have 36 sales? Do I send you a screen shot of my paypal (which I can easily doctor btw)?

                Doesn't even have to be coaching. Could be a script or what ever. I'm looking for some people to test out what I have and to offer a deal to the community here.

                Why would I offer a half price review copy when I've already cut my price?

                Why does someone with 5 years here know any more than someone who just joined last week?

                Who decides who is on the special list of those to be trusted? Do those people want to test all this crap out to begin with? Don't they have better things to do? Why would they donate all this time? Are they going to get paid to take on assignments? What do we have to pay them? Will this increase the price of the WSO's even more?

                Way too many issues...
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                • Profile picture of the author David Neale
                  Originally Posted by avenuegirl View Post

                  Lol, there are several issues - but I'll address this one. What if I'm releasing a very expensive new coaching program limited to 10 buyers from this forum? My offer is usually $200 but I'm letting in 10 people from the WF for $100. I get half my quota and need to bump. How do I get to 36 sales? How do I prove I have 36 sales?
                  I think this is an important point that has not received any attention. 36 sales encourages lower priced and presumably lower quality WSO offers.

                  I would be happy to pay much bigger dollars to proven WF marketers who may decide to offer a WSO.

                  Say a Dave Ward or a Red Cortez had a $1000 service/product but was willing to help out some Warriors for say $700. This would most likely not sell 36 times, in fact it probably couldn't.

                  I for one would like to see much higher quality offering with a correspondingly higher price tag but that 36 sales limit penalizes these offers.

                  Perhaps the mods could have the power to make exceptions for obvious "quality" offers?

                  So David and Red where's our discount
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                  David Neale

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      • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        I'm sorry a technical flaw destroyed my dignity Owen but I did put a large notice at the top of the WSO forum about it. I left for a couple hours and just returned realizing I'm the only one that saw the notice, members couldn't see it.

        No need for it now I suppose.
        Allen, as difficult to believe as it may be, I suspect there are some people who post WSO's who don't read every thread, every day, on the main forum.

        Now, while I might take perverse pleasure in the surprised look on a "drive-by" WSO seller's face the first time they go to load up the crapola of the day, there are some highly reputable, respected marketers who may not be aware of the price increase untill the actual point of impact.

        Once you've solved the tech glitch It might be nice to see the increase notice at the top of the WSO board.

        Who knows, someone may actually read it...

        Elmer
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Alan! Stop running your business like me! I changed my TOS and queued it up an Aweber, thought I sent it but did not, hence only I knew about it! hehe.

        Some of the people crying about not getting a notification need to understand that Alan is under no obligation to do so. Yeah it might be a nice thing to do, but had his noticed worked I suspect that many new wso would magically appear.

        I don't send a mail to my users every time I am going to do an update on my server for the simple reason it would cause unneeded support questions and the update would be over by the time many users logged in to use the system. As a result I get 1 or 2 support tickets instead of 50.

        So Alan its good that your notification did not work in my opinion. hehe

        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        I'm sorry a technical flaw destroyed my dignity Owen but I did put a large notice at the top of the WSO forum about it. I left for a couple hours and just returned realizing I'm the only one that saw the notice, members couldn't see it.

        No need for it now I suppose.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Well, time would tell, The problem with that section use
    to be blamed on the cost--it was free, and adding a
    price was to fix the problems and I guess it didn't.

    Then they tried requiring a War Room membership
    and that didn't work.

    Maybe $40 is the magic number.

    We are in the testing phase.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      I agree with Owen and Ray.

      Most businesses raise prices, but they usually give warning.

      And I agree with Ray, it's a test to weed out the garbage, but so far, the other methods of weeding it haven't worked.

      -Dani
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    • Profile picture of the author skibbz
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      Well, time would tell, The problem with that section use
      to be blamed on the cost--it was free, and adding a
      price was to fix the problems and I guess it didn't.

      Then they tried requiring a War Room membership
      and that didn't work.

      Maybe $40 is the magic number.

      We are in the testing phase.

      -Ray Edwards
      $40 is a 100% increase on the price..this is gonna hit some warriors offguard. Remember we are still in a recession
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    Yeah, I just listed some websites for sale and found the same thing.

    I'm not sure how I feel about it.

    Of course it hurts to pay an extra $20 but potentially it could gain you more money if your offer stays on page 1 for longer (not so much in the websites for sale section as that doesn't move so fast as the WSO section)

    I guess time will tell!

    Lee
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  • Profile picture of the author BryanC
    It's awesome in the sense that its goal is to eliminate many of the low quality money-grab WSOs that the section has become diluted with. The intention is admirable but I'm not sure how effective it will be. It seems to me that it will still be very rare that a WSO poster will ever end in the red. I'd like to actually see it raised even more.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Neale
      I like it. Keep raising the price until the crap gets cleaned out and we are left with genuine value WSOs.
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      David Neale

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      • Profile picture of the author la dominatrix
        Originally Posted by David Neale View Post

        I like it. Keep raising the price until the crap gets cleaned out and we are left with genuine value WSOs.
        Cant help feeling that I tend to concur with David although on the face of it a double increase is a whopper. However there are soem awful WSO's out there these days and if it get rid f the rehashed **** that keeps occuring then I am happy.

        La dominatrix
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe118
        Originally Posted by David Neale View Post

        I like it. Keep raising the price until the crap gets cleaned out and we are left with genuine value WSOs.
        And then lower it again? Because presumably the motive is so completely altruistic...
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Okay, I thought it was just to bump a WSO. So it's the new cost all the
      way around.

      Got it.

      Yes, would be nice if it was pointed out somewhere in the WSO rules about
      making payment.

      Personally, I don't care what Allen charges. If you use the WSO forum
      correctly, you should make that back in about 5 minutes.

      But then again, there are those who are lucky if they can make their $20
      back because, quite honestly, they don't have a clue how to run a WSO.

      But that's another issue altogether.

      Anyway, carry on.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Okay, here is my take on WSO costs versus weeding out the "so called
        garbage."

        Mind you, this is ONLY my opinion.

        The con artists, the ones with the shady "too good to be true" offers, know
        that they're going to get people to bite on them. So they're not going to
        care. You could make the WSO cost $100 and it won't stop them.

        They know what sells.

        The poor guy who is NOT an Internet marketer but somebody who has a
        modest graphic design or article writing service, just looking to build a name
        for himself, who offers good quality but doesn't have a name yet, is going
        to struggle. He's not going to make a lot of sales and the increase in price
        is going to hurt him.

        Those in the middle, the honest marketers who know their stuff, even
        if they don't juice up their claims, will do well enough that the increase
        won't hurt too much UNLESS they need to bump their WSO a few times to
        achieve the number of sales they're looking for.

        But the point is, as a deterrent to shoddy WSOs...as I said, those who
        know what people want and will promise the moon and deliver squat,
        won't care.

        Make the WSO $100 a shot and they'll still make their thousands.

        Money has never been a deterrent to thieves, con men and hustlers.

        Only to honest hard working people.

        At least that's my opinion...for all that it's worth.
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        • Profile picture of the author Maddi
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Okay, here is my take on WSO costs versus weeding out the "so called
          garbage."

          Mind you, this is ONLY my opinion.

          The con artists, the ones with the shady "too good to be true" offers, know
          that they're going to get people to bite on them. So they're not going to
          care. You could make the WSO cost $100 and it won't stop them.

          They know what sells.

          The poor guy who is NOT an Internet marketer but somebody who has a
          modest graphic design or article writing service, just looking to build a name
          for himself, who offers good quality but doesn't have a name yet, is going
          to struggle. He's not going to make a lot of sales and the increase in price
          is going to hurt him.

          Those in the middle, the honest marketers who know their stuff, even
          if they don't juice up their claims, will do well enough that the increase
          won't hurt too much UNLESS they need to bump their WSO a few times to
          achieve the number of sales they're looking for.

          But the point is, as a deterrent to shoddy WSOs...as I said, those who
          know what people want and will promise the moon and deliver squat,
          won't care.

          Make the WSO $100 a shot and they'll still make their thousands.

          Money has never been a deterrent to thieves, con men and hustlers.

          Only to honest hard working people.

          At least that's my opinion...for all that it's worth.
          Exactly my thoughts, or at least most of them

          I agree with Steven on this one, the whole point is weeding out and enhancing the integrity and the quality of the products in the WSO forum, I don't think the con artists/scammers or Make $23498.32 by tomorrow people will be affected.

          But like Ray said above, only time will tell. Lets see how things turn out and hope it gets the desired results.

          But on a different note, I do feel for people who'll have trouble coughing up $40 to run a wso as we all know $40 can be a significant amount in some cases, plus if they are first timers, they'll have trouble justifying the cost as the general feel of things requires few replies, reviews and views to get the sales rolling there - meaning another bump or two before they see some results. These people will definitely be affected.

          My 0.2 c
          Maddi
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        • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Okay, here is my take on WSO costs versus weeding out the "so called
          garbage."

          Mind you, this is ONLY my opinion.

          The con artists, the ones with the shady "too good to be true" offers, know
          that they're going to get people to bite on them. So they're not going to
          care. You could make the WSO cost $100 and it won't stop them.

          They know what sells.

          The poor guy who is NOT an Internet marketer but somebody who has a
          modest graphic design or article writing service, just looking to build a name
          for himself, who offers good quality but doesn't have a name yet, is going
          to struggle. He's not going to make a lot of sales and the increase in price
          is going to hurt him.

          Those in the middle, the honest marketers who know their stuff, even
          if they don't juice up their claims, will do well enough that the increase
          won't hurt too much UNLESS they need to bump their WSO a few times to
          achieve the number of sales they're looking for.

          But the point is, as a deterrent to shoddy WSOs...as I said, those who
          know what people want and will promise the moon and deliver squat,
          won't care.

          Make the WSO $100 a shot and they'll still make their thousands.

          Money has never been a deterrent to thieves, con men and hustlers.

          Only to honest hard working people.

          At least that's my opinion...for all that it's worth.
          I agree. I believe the price increase to $40 will do nothing to slow down the speed of WSOs (thus increasing the value), or remove the junk offers. Just as the $37 War Room fee did nothing.

          But I could be wrong.....I really hope I am.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe118
          I did two things today, one more surprising than the next

          1. I agreed with Steven... every word here is right on
          2. I actually thanked Steven

          The end of the world as we know it must be coming...

          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Okay, here is my take on WSO costs versus weeding out the "so called
          garbage."

          Mind you, this is ONLY my opinion.

          The con artists, the ones with the shady "too good to be true" offers, know
          that they're going to get people to bite on them. So they're not going to
          care. You could make the WSO cost $100 and it won't stop them.

          They know what sells.

          The poor guy who is NOT an Internet marketer but somebody who has a
          modest graphic design or article writing service, just looking to build a name
          for himself, who offers good quality but doesn't have a name yet, is going
          to struggle. He's not going to make a lot of sales and the increase in price
          is going to hurt him.

          Those in the middle, the honest marketers who know their stuff, even
          if they don't juice up their claims, will do well enough that the increase
          won't hurt too much UNLESS they need to bump their WSO a few times to
          achieve the number of sales they're looking for.

          But the point is, as a deterrent to shoddy WSOs...as I said, those who
          know what people want and will promise the moon and deliver squat,
          won't care.

          Make the WSO $100 a shot and they'll still make their thousands.

          Money has never been a deterrent to thieves, con men and hustlers.

          Only to honest hard working people.

          At least that's my opinion...for all that it's worth.
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        • Profile picture of the author Hank Scott
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


          ...the point is, as a deterrent to shoddy WSOs...as I said, those who know what people want and will promise the moon and deliver squat, won't care.

          Make the WSO $100 a shot and they'll still make their thousands.

          Money has never been a deterrent to thieves, con men and hustlers.

          Only to honest hard working people.

          At least that's my opinion...for all that it's worth.
          Take the poor guy who, with no prior experience with WSOs paid for War Room status and then posted his first WSO just before the unannounced increase...

          Then was shocked to see how quickly it fell off the third page.

          Who just paid for a service to learn the best days and times to post, reworked his offer to reduce the cost, and make it more acceptable...

          And was planning to bump it, with a limited budget to keep a quality offer available.

          A sudden doubling of cost without warning could scuttle such an attempt before it gets anywhere near profitable.

          I agree that the high priced cream, and the worthless scum, will always rise to the top, while most of the good and worthy will get churned in the middle or fall to the bottom.

          To take whatever action is needed to improve things with no advanced notice disrespects all the good and worthy, honest Warriors, who deserve fair warning before they see their costs doubled (a 200% increase, not merely 100%).

          If you had just entered into a business arrangement with someone to provide materials for the house you wish to build, sacrificed and risked the initial investment required, and were then suddenly soon surprised to discover the cost of materials doubled without notice, over what you expected and budgeted, how would you feel about that supplier?

          Regardless the reasons for the increase, advanced notice respects those just starting out, gives them the choice to avoid the trap of starting something they may not be able to finish, without losing their investment.

          In this case, not only is an apology in order, but perhaps a few refunds as well?

          After all, honesty and integrity must include all sides, and starts at the top... Which sets the tone and paves the way for others to follow.
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      • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, I thought it was just to bump a WSO. So it's the new cost all the
        way around.

        Got it.

        Yes, would be nice if it was pointed out somewhere in the WSO rules about
        making payment.

        Personally, I don't care what Allen charges. If you use the WSO forum
        correctly, you should make that back in about 5 minutes.

        But then again, there are those who are lucky if they can make their $20
        back because, quite honestly, they don't have a clue how to run a WSO.

        But that's another issue altogether.

        Anyway, carry on.
        You don't care? Why not make it $100 for a WSO then?
        Would that not be reasonable?

        I disagree with a 100% jump like that. One thing many of you are missing is what specific niche you are in. Graphic Designers vs. Copywriters, vs. Info Marketers, vs. Service based. Each niche "MAY" push a certain level of WSO products vs. another niche.
        For example: Graphic Designers may have many more WSO product offerings vs. a Service Based Copywriter.

        And I don't know, timing is a big issue - in regards to something new & innovative a Warrior may want to send something out.

        Also, this may be some warriors only outlet as a business model.
        Blanket statements as, "make it back in 5 minutes" is not really accurate, unless that marketer has increased their prices to cover the same rate.....in 5 minutes.
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      • Profile picture of the author pd5009
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, I thought it was just to bump a WSO. So it's the new cost all the
        way around.

        Got it.

        Yes, would be nice if it was pointed out somewhere in the WSO rules about
        making payment.
        ^ ^ Agree!
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Maybe the Owner wants to make a little more money, much like many of you do who run a WSO.
      Is there anything wrong with that ??

      Personally, I think a $100 price would be more fitting for everyone. It would get rid of many of the people who abuse the WSO.

      I vote $100 price for next change. I think that is fair for everyone.
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      • Profile picture of the author skibbz
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Maybe the Owner wants to make a little more money, much like many of you do who run a WSO.
        Is there anything wrong with that ??

        Personally, I think a $100 price would be more fitting for everyone. It would get rid of many of the people who abuse the WSO.

        I vote $100 price for next change.
        Its obvious the owner wants to make more money he also realise that there is a high demand for WSO
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        • Profile picture of the author Glenn Leader
          Originally Posted by skibbz View Post

          Its obvious the owner wants to make more money he also realise that there is a high demand for WSO
          Did you know that the forum owner is a multimillionaire? Allen would probably
          run the WSO section for free if it wasn't for the scam artists and con(wo)men
          who post there. He doesn't need the money from the WSO section at all.

          HTH

          Glenn
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Glenn Leader View Post

            Did you know that the forum owner is a multimillionaire? Allen would probably
            run the WSO section for free if it wasn't for the scam artists and con(wo)men
            who post there. He doesn't need the money from the WSO section at all.

            HTH

            Glenn
            Exactly as I see it. So much emphasis being put on the price of WSOs going up. Looking at it as purely a price increase, it's nothing. Shouldn't even be a topic of conversation for 10 pages.

            But ... over and over and over again, there are threads here bitching about the WSO section. Everybody with their opinions on how it should be run, what changes need to be made and on and on. All the scams, all the shoddy products ... we need to protect everyone from themselves ... so they don't buy that which they are really seeking to start with.

            The people who use the big promise headlines know what the market is looking for and know the headlines to use to get them to buy. It makes not one iota of difference to them that their product won't deliver ... the important thing is capturing that market and bilking it for every dollar they can.

            That's not going to stop. $40 won't deter them. They are the ones that make good money. They can afford it. It's an unpleasant part of Internet Marketing that if there's a hungry market, feed them whether the meal will sustain or not.

            Who is really to blame? I have to say both the buyer and seller. Lazy people wanting fast, easy cash and sellers willing to tell you anything to make you believe that you'll get fast, easy cash.

            I've never really thought that the forum needed to function as a babysitter. I think buyers need to grow up and accept the responsibility for the poor purchasing decisions they make and the forum only needs to weed out the scammers who actually rip people off in one way or another ... and no, not by feeding them a line of BS that anyone with half a brain should be able to see is a line of BS. Ripping off as in not delivering product, delivering software that doesn't work, not honoring refunds, telling customers they are buying a limited product and then selling hundreds more, etc. I've seen all of that here and I've seen those sellers still selling in quite a few cases.

            Having controls like a feedback system or allowing people to trash WSO threads aren't an answer. They just create a whole new problem.

            The answer has to lie with the buyers. Stop buying junk. You are making the market for it. Stop making it profitable.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Exactly as I see it. So much emphasis being put on the price of WSOs going up. Looking at it as purely a price increase, it's nothing. Shouldn't even be a topic of conversation for 10 pages.

              But ... over and over and over again, there are threads here bitching about the WSO section. Everybody with their opinions on how it should be run, what changes need to be made and on and on. All the scams, all the shoddy products ... we need to protect everyone from themselves ... so they don't buy that which they are really seeking to start with.

              The people who use the big promise headlines know what the market is looking for and know the headlines to use to get them to buy. It makes not one iota of difference to them that their product won't deliver ... the important thing is capturing that market and bilking it for every dollar they can.

              That's not going to stop. $40 won't deter them. They are the ones that make good money. They can afford it. It's an unpleasant part of Internet Marketing that if there's a hungry market, feed them whether the meal will sustain or not.

              Who is really to blame? I have to say both the buyer and seller. Lazy people wanting fast, easy cash and sellers willing to tell you anything to make you believe that you'll get fast, easy cash.

              I've never really thought that the forum needed to function as a babysitter. I think buyers need to grow up and accept the responsibility for the poor purchasing decisions they make and the forum only needs to weed out the scammers who actually rip people off in one way or another ... and no, not by feeding them a line of BS that anyone with half a brain should be able to see is a line of BS. Ripping off as in not delivering product, delivering software that doesn't work, not honoring refunds, telling customers they are buying a limited product and then selling hundreds more, etc. I've seen all of that here and I've seen those sellers still selling in quite a few cases.

              Having controls like a feedback system or allowing people to trash WSO threads aren't an answer. They just create a whole new problem.

              The answer has to lie with the buyers. Stop buying junk. You are making the market for it. Stop making it profitable.

              Suzanne...I could kiss you for this post if you didn't have so many tattoos
              on your body.

              All kidding aside, I agree with you 100%. When did grown adults suddenly
              start acting like kids in a candy store?

              And the problem isn't only in the WSO forum or online for that matter.

              Go look at the lottery lines every Tuesday and Thursday or whatever
              days your state has its mega millions.

              "A dollar and a dream" is one of the slogans for the Mega Millions.

              It's human nature not to want to work for your money. So if somebody
              tells them they don't have to, they're going to buy into it.

              The only thing that's going to fix the WSO forum is when people stop
              acting like people.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              The answer has to lie with the buyers. Stop buying junk. You are making the market for it. Stop making it profitable.

              Wow, personal responsibility... What a novel concept...

              That will never fly either... It requires one to look in the mirror and place the blame directly on the shoulders of the person responsible... But their mirrors are broken...

              You are right though... Until people stop buying garbage, the garbage peddlers will be there forever...

              The problem IS the buyers, and it always has been... Few want to buy anything that might require work... They are looking for the magic, make money while you sleep, work in your underwear, pie in the sky promises solution...

              Buyers don't want to entertain any offer that promises even a modicum of work, and they run from those offers in droves...

              But, pie in the sky? They cannot wait to open their wallets...

              Those folks who tend to make the most money in the WSO Forum are those who have mastered the Make $2 Million By Morning With No Work offer, because people WANT to believe that crap...

              They never stopped to realize that the person making those claims, works his or her proverbial butt off to make money...

              But they think that somehow, they will be able to read the book and do what the seller was unable to do... LOL
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      • Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Maybe the Owner wants to make a little more money, much like many of you do who run a WSO.
        Is there anything wrong with that ??

        Personally, I think a $100 price would be more fitting for everyone. It would get rid of many of the people who abuse the WSO.

        I vote $100 price for next change.
        It's not really the perspective of the owner making more money that may make some people upset.

        What they are getting upset about is the fact that there was no notice given in terms of the price increase.

        As per my 2c, If it work's great, many of the good WSO dealers may actually stand a chance to make some money from this section. However, even if it was the same there is some certain steps the WSO posters could have taken to make sure the listing got seen in the first place.
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        • Profile picture of the author skibbz
          Originally Posted by Skid_Roe View Post

          It's not really the perspective of the owner making more money that may make some people upset.

          What they are getting upset about is the fact that there was no notice given in terms of the price increase.
          I think so too, If it was announced in advance it would not come as such a surprise. remember that some people actually budget for $20
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      My advice is make your WSO products better!

      If you have a decent sales funnel, the $40 should still be very generous.

      Provide better products, better customer service, and raise the standards of your WSOs in general.

      Then regular buyers of WSOs like myself will buy your second, third and forth products after the initial sale.

      This isn't something to fear, but a challenge to be embraced by all genuine WSO sellers who run REAL businesses.

      If you think about it, a lot of the cheap junk and crappy offers will now probably disappear so you should have less competition than before.

      I don't believe the prices will suddenly increase, regular buyers in the WSO forum like myself already know what sort of prices we expect and are prepared to pay.

      The key now I believe will be to ensure your first product is incredible, so you can sell your second, third and fourth offer to the same people.

      When profits are more in the back end, logic dictates that the quality of the front end products HAS to increase overall.
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  • Profile picture of the author Owen Smith
    BryanC most of the terrible WSO will still pop up, as long as they make anything over the fixed cost of running the WSO a lot of people are happy.

    The increase is not justified I do not believe. Is the bump still $20? Or is that also $40?
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Owen Smith View Post

      The increase is not justified I do not believe. Is the bump still $20? Or is that also $40?


      Where else can you put an ad in front of thousands of highly targeted prospects (who are actually looking to purchase)...with images, unlimited words, and a platform to answer individual questions/concerns for $20 (or even $40)?
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      • Profile picture of the author Owen Smith
        Lance I do see your point, but if it was not for the warriors on this forum having an opinion and advertising using the forums services, the forum would not exist. I think on a dignity side, we should have been informed.

        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        Where else can you put an ad in front of thousands of highly targeted prospects (who are actually looking to purchase)...with images, unlimited words, and a platform to answer individual questions/concerns for $20 (or even $40)?
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      I'm sure the higher price will filter out WSOs and ads by less experienced members who aren't sure whether they'll make their investment back or not at the higher price. I don't know if that's necessarily good or bad, it would depend on the individual offer.

      I can't imagine the higher fee will get rid of the over-hyped borderline scams by the many newer members whose only activity on the forum is to sell their WSOs... they seem to be doing enough business that they won't blink at the extra $20.

      So overall, I don't know if it's going to improve the WSO forum at all... maybe WSOs will stay on the first page a little longer, for what that's worth. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

      EDIT: Steven's a much faster typer than me. Said pretty much the same thing, but more eloquently.
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  • Profile picture of the author ReachOneMedia
    Well I'm going to be soft with my commend since I can not afford to be banned...

    Increasing the price doesn't bother me but A nice touch would have been to send out an email to everyone just to let us know about it.

    There's people involved not just nickname and bank accounts...

    My 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author zapseo
    What's the added value to warrant the price increase?
    WarriorPro included now ???
    (One can only hope...

    Live JoyFully!

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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Holmes
    A heads up would have been nice but on reflection, there clearly would have been a bump rush prior to any changes being made. Nothing major but certainly a "waste" of a bump.

    Hopefully, we find posting there will be relatively price elastic and if it cuts out some of the crap we see there - then I'm all for it.

    If the change cuts the WSO's in half and the price to list is doubled ,then it balances out regardless and any claims it's "all about the money" simply aren't true.

    Besides.. it's $20.. if that's too much for people right now then do something else until it's no longer a problem, put your fingers in a few more pies.
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  • Profile picture of the author MilesT
    I think we're going to see more expensive crap. So, yeah. Good decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author GameVoid
    I think it might cause WSO to be used exclusively by the old timers selling rehashed material that they know will generate enough sales to cover the new fee.

    The newbies who are getting their feet wet and anyone who has a genuinely new product that they just can't charge $297 for out of the gate will be discouraged by the new price.

    But you have to spend money to make money as they say. The new WSO price will still be plenty reasonable for people with established products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I'm not sure this will do anything beyond raise prices. Instead of $7 for crap, it'll be $14. LOL

    But something had to be done, so might as well test this option. The problem is, the problem will be worse 10-fold if he ever lowers it back. So we're likely stuck with at least this new price. $20 is gone forever, imho. If it works, I won't complain at all.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    It will help Allen recoup the cash he is evidently down on since knocking out all the link services etc that were 25% or more of the listed WSO's.

    Lets hope his plan to get the cash back does not back fire.
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    • Profile picture of the author jan roos
      I think product owners will just have to raise their prices in order to compensate for the higher fee. However I think it's still a bargain at $40


      Cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Well, from a practical standpoint if Allen had given an advanced warning, say a weeks time, that the price for WSOs would be raised there would have been a flood of new WSOs posted at the $20 fee knowing that a link in your sig to your WSO can remain indefinitely.

      What do you think that would have done regarding the situation?

      You can't please everybody, and there are ramifications involved with every new wrinkle to the WSO forum.

      Bottom line...it's done...get back to work.

      ~Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      It will help Allen recoup the cash he is evidently down on since knocking out all the link services etc that were 25% or more of the listed WSO's.

      Lets hope his plan to get the cash back does not back fire.
      Allen is responding to all the bitching about the WSO section, not trying to recoup these imaginary losses you attribute to him. If that was the case, the forum would have slowed down once those offers were stopped and they did not. At least complain about the price increase with a logical reason and not one that is complete BS.

      Tina
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    • Profile picture of the author admin
      Administrator
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      It will help Allen recoup the cash he is evidently down on since knocking out all the link services etc that were 25% or more of the listed WSO's.

      Lets hope his plan to get the cash back does not back fire.

      Right after that change the income from the WSO section dropped about $20,000. A month later it was right back to where it was, replaced by stuff that was worse for the most part.

      If you care to know the real goal I have I'll tell you. I 'hope' the number of new WSO's posted are cut exactly in half. Thinning the place out so offers stay on the first page longer and I don't have to create multiple subsections. That is the goal.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matt Morgan
        To summarize, to marketers who are complaining about this:

        You need many different sources of income Rather than JUST relying on WSO's. Spread your income sources to many other variety of methods, and Don’t just rely on WSOs. What if he increases the price again to higher? than you are doomed!


        Google can change its SEO algorithms without giving emails out to every webmaster out there, I guess the warrior forum can too,

        but seriously develop other alternative sources of income.

        P.S. - This thread is going to last for many days! (Watch this space)

        Matt Morgan.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        Right after that change the income from the WSO section dropped about $20,000. A month later it was right back to where it was, relaced by stuff that was worse for the most part.

        If you care to know the real goal I have I'll tell you. I 'hope' the number of new WSO's posted are cut exactly in half. Thinning the place out so offers stay on the first page longer and I don't have to create multiple subsections. That is the goal.
        Game, set, match.

        We can now put this puppy to bed folks.

        The man has spoken.

        Thank you Allen. Makes perfect sense to me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        I do hope that this slows down how fast offers fall off the front page. I bumped my wso at around 11:40 my time and 3 hours later its already half way down the page. Lets see what happens, and I believe your doing what you think is not only best for your users but for the forum as well.

        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        Right after that change the income from the WSO section dropped about $20,000. A month later it was right back to where it was, relaced by stuff that was worse for the most part.

        If you care to know the real goal I have I'll tell you. I 'hope' the number of new WSO's posted are cut exactly in half. Thinning the place out so offers stay on the first page longer and I don't have to create multiple subsections. That is the goal.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        Right after that change the income from the WSO section dropped about $20,000. A month later it was right back to where it was, replaced by stuff that was worse for the most part.

        If you care to know the real goal I have I'll tell you. I 'hope' the number of new WSO's posted are cut exactly in half. Thinning the place out so offers stay on the first page longer and I don't have to create multiple subsections. That is the goal.

        That cut right to the chase... LOL

        People who rely solely on WSO's for their living aren't operating a real business are they? Not really... It may be a business, but if they have all of their eggs in one basket, they are oblivious to the realities of life...

        I hear you live in Louisiana... The next hurricane could take out the Says family and the Forum in a day and forever (I hope it doesn't happen, but it could happen in a worst case scenario)... Then those "business people" will go under promptly, at a complete loss as to how to save their business... That in my book is not a survivable business model...

        I hope this does work out to your goals... My last WSO survived on page one less than 8 hours...

        However, it must also be said that in the grand scheme of things, $40 is still cheap... Compare that to other advertising on the web... The WSO remains one of the cheapest forms of advertising in my arsenal of tools...

        Sure, I can distribute an article for less money, but I also have to calculate article writing costs into the equation as well... LOL

        And Bum Marketing (article marketing without paying anyone) will only take someone so far, then they need to start spending real money to advertise their business, if they want to sustain the growth of the their business...

        PPC will often exceed the cost of a WSO, unless someone has the perfect ad and sales funnel...

        Don't even get me started on the cost of SEO in time and money... LOL

        A WSO is still a hell of a deal at $40, and I hope it achieves your intended goals... but I don't hold out much hope for the price increase to be the problem fixer for you...

        It may solve your problem of not having to open a second WSO room, but it will not solve the problem of junk WSO's that so many people complain about and so many more people buy... LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author Hanz
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          That cut right to the chase... LOL

          People who rely solely on WSO's for their living aren't operating a real business are they? Not really... It may be a business, but if they have all of their eggs in one basket, they are oblivious to the realities of life...

          I hear you live in Louisiana... The next hurricane could take out the Says family and the Forum in a day and forever (I hope it doesn't happen, but it could happen in a worst case scenario)... Then those "business people" will go under promptly, at a complete loss as to how to save their business... That in my book is not a survivable business model...

          I hope this does work out to your goals... My last WSO survived on page one less than 8 hours...

          However, it must also be said that in the grand scheme of things, $40 is still cheap... Compare that to other advertising on the web... The WSO remains one of the cheapest forms of advertising in my arsenal of tools...

          Sure, I can distribute an article for less money, but I also have to calculate article writing costs into the equation as well... LOL

          And Bum Marketing (article marketing without paying anyone) will only take someone so far, then they need to start spending real money to advertise their business, if they want to sustain the growth of the their business...

          PPC will often exceed the cost of a WSO, unless someone has the perfect ad and sales funnel...

          Don't even get me started on the cost of SEO in time and money... LOL

          A WSO is still a hell of a deal at $40, and I hope it achieves your intended goals... but I don't hold out much hope for the price increase to be the problem fixer for you...

          It may solve your problem of not having to open a second WSO room, but it will not solve the problem of junk WSO's that so many people complain about and so many more people buy... LOL
          If poor folk see their e-business dwindling then they best go get a real job like the rest of the world eh? LOL!
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

            If poor folk see their e-business dwindling then they best go get a real job like the rest of the world eh? LOL!
            Love your trolling.

            You seem to really have a problem with this even though you said your revenues are not based on this forum.

            Shall we dictate how much you sell your products for?

            I really wish Allen would ban you. I have yet to see anything of value from you on this forum.
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            • Profile picture of the author Hanz
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Love your trolling.

              You seem to really have a problem with this even though you said your revenues are not based on this forum.

              Shall we dictate how much you sell your products for?

              I really wish Allen would ban you. I have yet to see anything of value for you on this forum.
              I'm just having some fun Thomas. Lighten up!
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Good grief...I just went to the bathroom and like 20 new posts.

                I can't keep up with this thread anymore folks...I'm OLD.

                So PLEASE slow this train down!
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

            If poor folk see their e-business dwindling then they best go get a real job like the rest of the world eh? LOL!
            Maybe... If they see their businesses dwindling, because they don't know how to run it profitably, then maybe they ARE better off with a job...
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    So now you wait until you make a bit more profit before bumping it. No big deal.

    Most of my sales come through my signature link, and the initial posting. I still bump from time to time, and it does give sales a boost, but the secret to selling WSOs, apart from a good offer is...

    Contribution.

    The more you contribute, the more you will get noticed, and the more people will feel like they know you.

    On the other hand, I wouldn't say I'm thrilled about this decision, but my world isn't going to come to an end because of it.

    In the end, it may not be a good or bad thing, really, just different.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      So now you wait until you make a bit more profit before bumping it. No big deal.

      Most of my sales come through my signature link, and the initial posting. I still bump from time to time, and it does give sales a boost, but the secret to selling WSOs, apart from a good offer is...

      Contribution.

      The more you contribute, the more you will get noticed, and the more people will feel like they know you.

      On the other hand, I wouldn't say I'm thrilled about this decision, but my world isn't going to come to an end because of it.

      In the end, it may not be a good or bad thing, really, just different.

      All the best,
      Michael

      WORD!

      Contribution.

      Imagine that.

      What a freaking concept.

      I owe you a beer for that one Michael.
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  • If this move was made to cut down on the crappy WSO's being posted, as mentioned in another thread, then I don't believe it will have the desired effect. There are other measures I would personally have implemented before raising the price.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    Amen! Great move as far as I'm concerned. Higher price = a slower moving train. WSOs will stay on page 1 & 2 longer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      Amen! Great move as far as I'm concerned. Higher price = a slower moving train. WSOs will stay on page 1 & 2 longer.
      That's kind of what I was thinking.

      Let's not even consider if reducing junk was a motivating factor. If the WSO listings decline by 1/2, Allen still makes the same amount. And listings stay up front longer. Allen doesn't lose anything and the vendors that are left are happier with their added exposure. Of course, this is a very simple explanation and one that could never account for a number of different variables. Which is why I'm sure Allen will track the results and adjust accordingly.
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      • Profile picture of the author admin
        Administrator
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        That's kind of what I was thinking.

        Let's not even consider if reducing junk was a motivating factor. If the WSO listings decline by 1/2, Allen still makes the same amount. And listings stay up front longer. Allen doesn't lose anything and the vendors that are left are happier with their added exposure. Of course, this is a very simple explanation and one that could never account for a number of different variables. Which is why I'm sure Allen will track the results and adjust accordingly.

        You got it right Lance..

        Although I am hoping it does cut down on the junk offers. And it will, but the way in which it will I don't think I'll bring up here. If you just think about where tons of those junk offers 'come from' it won't take you long to get it. That's all I can say.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          You got it right Lance..

          Although I am hoping it does cut down on the junk offers. And it will, but the way in which it will I don't think I'll bring up here. If you just think about where tons of those junk offers 'come from' it won't take you long to get it. That's all I can say.
          Don't worry Allen...we get it.

          And not a second too soon.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          You got it right Lance..

          Although I am hoping it does cut down on the junk offers. And it will, but the way in which it will I don't think I'll bring up here. If you just think about where tons of those junk offers 'come from' it won't take you long to get it. That's all I can say.
          Well, I don't mind the increase if it addresses the exposure issue.

          Sellers will live or die based on the quality they deliver. But having your offer disappear to page 3 in a few hours is annoying.

          From a buyers angle, the sub sections is the way to go.

          I also like the idea of some sort of disclosure template where everything about the product should be stated up front.
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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Holy crap! WSOs just doubled in price again to $80.


























            Nah...I'm just effin with ya.
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        • Profile picture of the author ileneg
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          Right after that change the income from the WSO section dropped about $20,000. A month later it was right back to where it was, replaced by stuff that was worse for the most part.

          If you care to know the real goal I have I'll tell you. I 'hope' the number of new WSO's posted are cut exactly in half. Thinning the place out so offers stay on the first page longer and I don't have to create multiple subsections. That is the goal.
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          You got it right Lance..

          Although I am hoping it does cut down on the junk offers. And it will, but the way in which it will I don't think I'll bring up here. If you just think about where tons of those junk offers 'come from' it won't take you long to get it. That's all I can say.
          Maybe you should "sticky" your posts...and stop the madness

          Cheers,
          ileneg


          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          I would very much like to post an "I read between the lines" post here in response to this but I won't...

          I can't help but smile, it's better for my health to just smile.
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    • Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

      WSOs will stay on page 1 & 2 longer.
      I wouldn't count on it. I expect that the effect will be minimal, but I would be happy to be pleasantly surprised.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    Just wanted to comment on all the responses that a "warning message" of the pending increase would have been nice...

    ...I don't think you realize the mass wave of WSOs that would have just flooded the section the minute such a message would have been sent.

    So sure...you get your WSO in for $20...and then 5 seconds later it'd be on the bottom of page as the THOUSANDS of Warrior Members who received the same message ALSO submit their "close to finished" products to "save" $20.

    Really...any tip off that a pending increase was coming would have had more complaints than benefits...not to mention the then "forced" $40 bump to get your "just paid for" WSO back on Page 1...

    So ya...

    In terms of slowing down the "crap" released, I think implementing a minimum Post Count (to show how you've helped improve the community prior to selling stuff to it) and maybe even a required amount of time being a member... I dunno

    ~Dexx
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    • Profile picture of the author hmigroupllc
      Originally Posted by Dexx View Post


      In terms of slowing down the "crap" released, I think implementing a minimum Post Count (to show how you've helped improve the community prior to selling stuff to it) and maybe even a required amount of time being a member... I dunno

      ~Dexx
      I'm sure that all the people that have thousands of "crap" comments would like this idea of using a comment count.

      No, I'm not saying you have "crap" comments...

      However, I've been here for years, I read a lot of what's going on, and add a comment here and there. Just like crap WSO's there are plenty of people that just find "standard" run of the mill answers, hoping to get lots of clicks on their signature links.

      Having bunches of comments is not a qualifier for having a good product or WSO.

      Just my opinion

      Stay well

      Wayne Sharer
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    • Profile picture of the author AcmeDude
      Originally Posted by Dexx View Post

      So ya...

      In terms of slowing down the "crap" released, I think implementing a minimum Post Count (to show how you've helped improve the community prior to selling stuff to it) and maybe even a required amount of time being a member... I dunno

      ~Dexx
      Dexx make a great point about some requirements, yeah i know i'm just a newbie on the forums, but i think that would benefit a lot of members. Maybe even required amount of thanks will be taken to consideration. Like lot of members pointed out earlier.

      *It would cause more WSO appearing in the section, but also disappering from page1, since there would be a lot of ppl that would want to save 20$.
      *Potentially the WSO offer prices will increase. I think the ones that contribute a real value with his offer not some mumbo-jumbo, wont have to worry about their offers. I believe if someone doesnt believe in his offered product more than 100%, then why the prospect would believe that the offer is trully great.

      In a nutshell the ones that believe in their product wont rise the prices because the value it contains.
      *It may or may not decrease the con artists, just because they know what sells just like Steven said.

      Maybe there should a thread in the WSO forums, like Think before buy.
      A lot of people are looking for to get a quick buck and they fall pray for those con artists. Its just like its say people are responsible for their own action.

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  • Profile picture of the author MilesT
    Steven Wagenheim - Good points.

    Question:
    Does WF consider itself an open incubator for new marketers?

    Just wondering, because the increase makes it much less appealing.

    Like Steven said - for the small guy who still has an honest product but, a low cost product, this price increase, I think, is unreasonable and gives good reason to not participate in WSOs. So, value lost for the WF. bummer.

    Standards, not Price, is a better way to increase value to the WF and WSOs. Raising the standards would certainly weed out the bad offers. Raising the price only weeds out more marketers, many of them with solid products that are a good value.

    Here's my post from they skyrocketing "Pet Peeves" post...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djleon1
    • Have a required field where it is told what the WSO actually does. This should not be too specific but at least give the buyer some idea. Is it software, videos, etc.
    • No More Monetary Claims
    • Limit the listing to under 700 words or some number that works
    • Limit the # of WSO's a member can run at any one time.
    • Only one WSO per product - I have seen multple wso's selling the same product. Split-test somewhere else.
    • If there are upsells, recurring fees etc they need to be disclosed.
    • The product needs to be complete unless disclosed - no buy my WSO for $7 but inorder for it to work you will need to buy product X from me for $97


    I think this is a good set of standards.
    • They are all achievable
    • they favor the buyer
    • they do not create unreasonable work for the seller
    These standards force sellers to create better products based on disclosure of (1) What the product actually does (and not overstating what it is not), and (2) having to be more succinct in stating the main features and benefits which would make it easier for buyers to read through the fluff. If there is even room for fluff.

    The one point I'd like to change is that all WSOs should ALWAYS be a complete product with no upsells attached to "make it work."

    Raising the price would only penalize the new marketer making an honest effort to sell a few products, or those who sell lower price products. Just because a product has a low price does not mean its a bad or unworthy product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Or a much better way if you are going to price your front end cheap and that is to have a solid backend gameplan where you make way more money.

      Case in point:

      AMAZING 7 dollar product that blow's people away...and the upsell is then a 30 day trial to a 37 dollar a month recurring membership. People then get 1 to 4 new reports a month.

      Say in the course of a month you only break even on the front end. 100 Buyers = 700 bucks but you bumped it 18 times.

      However, you convert at 20%, getting 20 people in your 37 dollar membership. They stay for an average of 3 months, so you get 1480 in profits.

      Plus you have a list of 100 people who adore your product and will buy more for you for free.

      Also, you can link to your thread in the sig file and get a lot exposure there.

      You can turn the buyers into affiliates to promote your product and get it to go viral.

      There are tons of things you can do to make it profitable...even if the cost was 200 bucks.

      Rob

      Originally Posted by MilesT View Post

      Steven Wagenheim - Good points.

      Question:
      Does WF consider itself an open incubator for new marketers?

      Just wondering, because the increase makes it much less appealing.

      Like Steven said - for the small guy who still has an honest product but, a low cost product, this price increase, I think, is unreasonable and gives good reason to not participate in WSOs. So, value lost for the WF. bummer.

      Standards, not Price, is a better way to increase value to the WF and WSOs. Raising the standards would certainly weed out the bad offers. Raising the price only weeds out more marketers, many of them with solid products that are a good value.

      Here's my post from they skyrocketing "Pet Peeves" post...

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by djleon1
      • Have a required field where it is told what the WSO actually does. This should not be too specific but at least give the buyer some idea. Is it software, videos, etc.
      • No More Monetary Claims
      • Limit the listing to under 700 words or some number that works
      • Limit the # of WSO's a member can run at any one time.
      • Only one WSO per product - I have seen multple wso's selling the same product. Split-test somewhere else.
      • If there are upsells, recurring fees etc they need to be disclosed.
      • The product needs to be complete unless disclosed - no buy my WSO for $7 but inorder for it to work you will need to buy product X from me for $97


      I think this is a good set of standards.
      • They are all achievable
      • they favor the buyer
      • they do not create unreasonable work for the seller
      These standards force sellers to create better products based on disclosure of (1) What the product actually does (and not overstating what it is not), and (2) having to be more succinct in stating the main features and benefits which would make it easier for buyers to read through the fluff. If there is even room for fluff.

      The one point I'd like to change is that all WSOs should ALWAYS be a complete product with no upsells attached to "make it work."

      Raising the price would only penalize the new marketer making an honest effort to sell a few products, or those who sell lower price products. Just because a product has a low price does not mean its a bad or unworthy product.
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      • Profile picture of the author MilesT
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        Or a much better way if you are going to price your front end cheap and that is to have a solid backend gameplan where you make way more money.
        True, but that goes on the assumption that all marketers want to pursue a continuity program, which all don't.

        You can make the argument that its better for them, but only if they want that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by MilesT View Post

      Steven Wagenheim - Good points.

      Question:
      Does WF consider itself an open incubator for new marketers?

      Just wondering, because the increase makes it much less appealing.

      Like Steven said - for the small guy who still has an honest product but, a low cost product, this price increase, I think, is unreasonable and gives good reason to not participate in WSOs. So, value lost for the WF. bummer.
      Not necessarily. It says right in the WSO Forum rules...

      The Rules:

      2. A Warrior Special Offer Means The Price You Give Must Be Better Than The Price The Public At Large Can Get. (This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum)
      So you would think someone would have a good enough handle on their conversion numbers to decide whether $40 was an acceptable investment for an ad.

      And if it's a launch/pre-launch type discount offer, $40 is pretty cheap way to determine whether or not your offer is a winner.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe118
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        So you would think someone would have a good enough handle on their conversion numbers to decide whether $40 was an acceptable investment for an ad.

        And if it's a launch/pre-launch type discount offer, $40 is pretty cheap way to determine whether or not your offer is a winner.
        I'm guessing by the number of your posts that you're relatively old timer. We're talking about someone who is starting out but has a good idea for a WSO, no experience and hence absolutely NO clue about any of the stuff you mention above.

        What about such a WSO? It will not be published now. On the other hands the hucksters who promise the sky and sell you snake oil, they wont even blink.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Now, if the price for asking for a 'review copy' was $40 that would really help clean the place up...

          Seriously, how big is that hard drive of yours, anyway...:rolleyes:

          ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          I think that the $40 price is probably more than warranted considering the amount of money that flows through that section of the forum.

          I do want to point out something kind of comical...and ironic though...maybe even a bit comical?

          So, some folks are complaining about the increase in cost to post or bump a WSO...right? Well, right behind them are the folks telling them how to take it in stride, with ideas like:

          IMPROVE YOUR COPY
          MAKE YOUR OFFER STAND OUT
          GET MORE PEOPLE INTO YOUR SALES FUNNEL
          ADD SOME UPSELLS
          MAKE YOUR SALES FUNNEL BETTER
          ETC
          ETC

          err...aren't many of these things the very things that started the whole WSO debate again? lol

          The copy is too "good"
          People are doing things like claiming raving reviews, and using the words shocked.
          WSO's are supposed to be for "giving back" and not to get people into your sales funnel.
          UPSELLS are bad

          Jesus, talk about being able to be in two places at one time.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I think that the $40 price is probably more than warranted considering the amount of money that flows through that section of the forum.

            .
            .
            .

            Jesus, talk about being able to be in two places at one time.
            Jeremy, human nature is the cause of many of the problems that the
            price increase is going to cause. Maybe complaints is a better word than
            problems.

            On The Seller Side

            Sellers are going to want to make more money to make up for the increased
            cost. Some will simply stick to what they've done, actually having some
            integrity while others will make their WSO claims even more wild and crazy
            trying to appeal to...

            The Buyer

            Who, for the most part, is still looking for that magic bullet...that one
            product that's FINALLY going to turn their failure of a business into a
            6 figure a year monster.

            They'll complain that this magic bullet now costs more to buy

            When these two forces meet, no good can come from it...none.

            I'm not saying that all sellers and buyers fit in the above mold, but I am
            willing to bet that a good portion does.

            It is human nature and it's not going to change.

            When costs go up, you increase prices or you lose money. Forget the WSO
            forum. That's how the REAL world works or you're not running your business
            correctly.

            Unless of course you don't mind losing money.

            As a consumer, when costs go up, you buy less unless it's a necessity.

            At least I do.

            I totally see Allen's reason for doing what he did and as I said, I am all
            for it and feel it's the right thing to do given what we had.

            I just know human nature and won't bet my life on this actually turning
            out beneficial for seller or buyer or either.

            But I guess time will tell, won't it.
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          • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I do want to point out something kind of comical...and ironic though...maybe even a bit comical?
            That's ironical.

            ; )
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            • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
              Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

              That's ironical.

              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall
              I do want to point out something kind of comical...and ironic though...maybe even a bit comical?
              Jeremy, I saw that post too. Was kinda hoping those WSOs would be the first to be eliminated.

              I don't think this will have much effect except to pass-along the price increase.
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  • Profile picture of the author seojedi
    A someone who has recently joined this community after being away for years, I'd gladly pay $100 (hypothetically:-) for the opportunity to participate in a forum that is chock full of knowledge, experience and expertise on the topic of making money online.
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  • Profile picture of the author J42
    Well instead of making around $2,500 a day from the WSO board Allen will now make $5,000/day (+/-) or $1.8 million a year so I see it as a smart move.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by J42 View Post

      Well instead of making around $2,500 a day from the WSO board Allen will now make $5,000/day (+/-) or $1.8 million a year so I see it as a smart move.
      This isn't entirely true. With an increase in price, you have to consider that price will become a barrier (for some). Some won't use the forum, and those who would post garbage WSOs could potentially go down.

      Less people paying $40

      or

      More people paying $20

      I think his daily income wil reamain similar, however, quality 'could' go up. There are a million ways to look at this. We could assume that all $7 products are garbage, but that isn't entirely true either....just as we could say that all $97 products are great (that isn't always true either). Even still, I think this move will drive WSO prices up a bit more....
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Selling 6 copies of a $7 WSO wll pay the fee - if you can't sell 6 copies with the massive traffic on this forum you need to work on your product or your copywriting (or your reputation).

        We're only talking $40, people - not the end of the world. Will it help cut the clutter? Don't know until we try it, will we?

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Selling 6 copies of a $7 WSO wll pay the fee - if you can't sell 6 copies with the massive traffic on this forum you need to work on your product or your copywriting (or your reputation).

          We're only talking $40, people - not the end of the world. Will it help cut the clutter? Don't know until we try it, will we?

          kay
          But, Kay, that will only be $2 profit instead of the $22 they would have got before!



          ~M~
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      FTR: I had no idea this was coming, so anything I say here is based on the same info everyone else has.

      Thank you to the folks who spotted the potential problem of a flood of WSOs being posted immediately if Allen had mentioned this in advance. That's paying attention.

      If he had announced his intentions before implementing it, I can guarantee you that the whole forum would have been taken over with threads yelling, screaming, crying, threatening and generally acting as though we have any vote other than the one we make with our money. And nothing would have been said that hasn't been said a hundred times before in conversations about that section.

      Nothing useful would have come of it.

      As far as why he did it, I could probably make a better guess than most people, but it would still be just that: A guess. No point in gussing on something like this that I can see. The fact is that Allen has access to information that could help to properly inform such decisions that the rest of us don't.


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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    Personally I'd like to see the price increase to $100+, that will stop the fly by nights.

    But then, on the other hand, it might stop newbies marketers from making their first moves in IM.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
      One of the easiest ways to increase your profits is to raise your prices.

      I am sure some people will stop using the WSO forum but I bet the bottom line isn't affected.

      Oh and maybe with the increased price you will see people charging more for their products.

      What a novel concept!

      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        One of the easiest ways to increase your profits is to raise your prices.

        I am sure some people will stop using the WSO forum but I bet the bottom line isn't affected.

        Oh and maybe with the increased price you will see people charging more for their products.

        What a novel concept!

        Tim
        People should charge for their products what they are worth, BUT, they should also work hard to establish their WSO....and, gradual, over time, exert influence and gain the attention of those who can give powerful reviews/testimonials. This all goes back to relationship building and TRULY investing in the forum. If you want your WSO to succeed, you have to give to others and establish relationships.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
          Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

          People should charge for their products what they are worth, BUT, they should also work hard to establish their WSO....and, gradual, over time, exert influence and gain the attention of those who can give powerful reviews/testimonials. This all goes back to relationship building and TRULY investing in the forum. If you want your WSO to succeed, you have to give to others and establish relationships.
          Umm ... no you don't.

          Stop waiting for others to tell you when you've made it.

          There is no need to "wait" or "work hard" or do things gradually.

          That's how I increased my income 400%+ this year.

          I don't wait for others to tell me squat.

          Plus lets be honest if $20 extra bucks kills you then you have bigger problems than being on the WSO forum.
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          • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
            Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

            Umm ... no you don't.

            Stop waiting for others to tell you when you've made it.

            There is no need to "wait" or "work hard" or do things gradually.

            That's how I increased my income 400%+ this year.

            I don't wait for others to tell me squat.

            Plus lets be honest if $20 extra bucks kills you then you have bigger problems than being on the WSO forum.
            Did I say that $20 extra bucks would kill me?

            Once you learn the WSO forum, you learn when to bump and when not to....and, you don't treat it like your only source of income, like Karl said.

            It DOES provide an awesome opportunity to build social proof behind your product. Even the greatest products of all time seek reviews and testimonials. Even freelancing services require at least some degree of positive customer experiences that will manifest into word of mouth....and, if you aren't establishing relationships and building up social proof behind your products and online presence, then you are leaving a significant amount of money on the table.

            Congratulations if you have managed to do everything you have done without building and nurturing a single strategic relationship, or seeking reviews/testimonials. Release it as a WSO. I'll buy it. Seriously.
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      • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        One of the easiest ways to increase your profits is to raise your prices.

        I am sure some people will stop using the WSO forum but I bet the bottom line isn't affected.

        Oh and maybe with the increased price you will see people charging more for their products.

        What a novel concept!

        Tim
        Increased prices usually equals a reduction in conversion rates, so I doubt that will happen.

        As I've said in my previous posts, what sellers have to do now is ensure their first product is great and they have a good sales funnel.

        Many of the people selling junk were only doing so, because they knew they would get into profit on the front end sale.

        When the back end comes into play, it is a different game altogether.

        Then the quality of the first product becomes VERY important.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Fladlien
      I'm glad it happened. Any change is great at this point because we can then see how this plays out and maybe make another few tweaks.

      Personally, if the $40 is too much to invest to run a WSO - saving $20 isn't going to help your situation much.

      Every WSO I've ever ran, made over $200 before I even bumped it once. Heck, back in the day it was easy to make $1000 without even trying. I'd rather have a $100 listing fee and 1/5th the WSOs than a $20 listing fee. I'd make more profits with a $100 listing fee because I'd sell a lot more stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien View Post

        I'm glad it happened. Any change is great at this point because we can then see how this plays out and maybe make another few tweaks.

        Personally, if the $40 is too much to invest to run a WSO - saving $20 isn't going to help your situation much.

        Every WSO I've ever ran, made over $200 before I even bumped it once. Heck, back in the day it was easy to make $1000 without even trying. I'd rather have a $100 listing fee and 1/5th the WSOs than a $20 listing fee. I'd make more profits with a $100 listing fee because I'd sell a lot more stuff.
        That's great for those of us who "get it", but not everybody fits into that category.

        Ultimately, I think the junk won't go away (or at least not enough of it), and some deserving people won't be able to get into the game, but even better...

        It will force more people to take their online business building efforts more seriously. While $20 doesn't seem like a lot, $40 does to a lot of people. However, even though their investment to list a WSO has doubled, my best guess is that the return on that investment will be much more than double because of how seriously they will now take it.

        If that makes sense?

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Hey guys, wanna kill it at the WSO forum?

          Here's what you do.

          1. Make a great product at a great offer with tiered pricing.

          2. Sell a limited number of copies.

          3. Offer buyers who bought the first product a chance to get on a special
          buyers list to be notified first before anybody else.

          4. Make another great product with same tiered pricing and same limited
          number of copies.

          5. Promote to list.

          6. Save your WSO fees for something else.
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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Hey guys, wanna kill it at the WSO forum?

            Here's what you do.

            1. Make a great product at a great offer with tiered pricing.

            2. Sell a limited number of copies.

            3. Offer buyers who bought the first product a chance to get on a special
            buyers list to be notified first before anybody else.

            4. Make another great product with same tiered pricing and same limited
            number of copies.

            5. Promote to list.

            6. Save your WSO fees for something else.
            Nice system there, Steven. And if anyone doubts that it works, they obviously haven't paid attention to any of your WSOs.

            Also, you could add the following to your system...

            3b. Once the offer is SOLD OUT, replace your order link with a link to an announcement list opt in form so those that missed out can be notified of the next offer as well (in case your past buyers don't buy all the copies of the new product).

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      • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
        Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien View Post

        I'm glad it happened. Any change is great at this point because we can then see how this plays out and maybe make another few tweaks.

        Personally, if the $40 is too much to invest to run a WSO - saving $20 isn't going to help your situation much.

        Every WSO I've ever ran, made over $200 before I even bumped it once. Heck, back in the day it was easy to make $1000 without even trying. I'd rather have a $100 listing fee and 1/5th the WSOs than a $20 listing fee. I'd make more profits with a $100 listing fee because I'd sell a lot more stuff.

        Hell, let's make the fee $200 then. What fee amount would be "low enough", or shall I say "high enough" to make it effective for EVERYONE?

        Also, at what rate do you turn out a WSO? Once a month, once a week?
        It may not be the lifeblood of your business, but it might be a major break for others.

        Again, I go back to the different niche -- A person who is a graphic designer can produce regularly quality work, vs. someone pushing 1 software product once per month.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Want to know what I find to be the funniest thing of all?

    I'll tell you.



    There are more people complaining about the price going from $20 to $40, then complained about it going from $0 to $20.

    That just seems odd to me.

    Yes?

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Want to know what I find to be the funniest thing of all?

      I'll tell you.



      There are more people complaining about the price going from $20 to $40, then complained about it going from $0 to $20.

      That just seems odd to me.

      Yes?

      All the best,
      Michael

      Hey Michael, when I got here, the price was already $20 so it didn't
      matter to me what the price was.

      As for now, also don't really care. If I can't make $40 from a WSO, I
      need to go back working a 9 to 5.

      No, better yet...I need to put a 22 caliber to my head.
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      • Profile picture of the author dbarnum
        It’s basic business sense. And running this forum isn't free. There are hosting costs, tech costs, time and energy costs on behalf of many, and other associated costs.

        And you get results: bottom line.

        Test a print classified ad in your local newspapers or another type of ad, and then pay the WSO or other Warrior forum posting fee, and post your ad. Then note the click difference as well as other results.

        Our tests:



        We've run a few different tests on this over the past couple years and on average, the cost runs approx. $200 for a month for the following:

        - 30 days of a daily ad in the main newspaper of the capital city of the state with a special section on Sundays

        - a weekly ad in the city's tv guide for 4 weeks

        - a weekly ad in several suburban newspapers in surrounding areas

        - a monthly website ad

        Results:


        - All the above still brings a lot less traffic combined during the entire 30 days than a WSO or other Warrior ad.

        - Traffic via the Warrior forum is much more targeted (i.e. people who reply are into the IM scene and know what they want and need better than those who respond via local channels).

        - The closing ratio is much higher for people who come in via the Warrior forum.


        So hey, keep it up, Allen! Love your forum and still use it with our clients instead of having our own
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    • Profile picture of the author VioFX
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Want to know what I find to be the funniest thing of all?

      I'll tell you.



      There are more people complaining about the price going from $20 to $40, then complained about it going from $0 to $20.

      That just seems odd to me.

      Yes?

      All the best,
      Michael
      Noticed the same, I guess you can simply add both groups up and it = all the people who think their WSO doesn't have quality enough for an extra $20
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  • Profile picture of the author GameVoid
    Does anyone have any data on the performance difference between selling a product on the WSO forum versus just selling it in the classified ads section?

    If newbies like me could be comfortable knowing that our products have just as much of a chance at selling in the classifieds forum as in WSO, just taking longer, it might not be a big deal.
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    • Originally Posted by GameVoid View Post

      Does anyone have any data on the performance difference between selling a product on the WSO forum versus just selling it in the classified ads section.
      The Classifieds have gone up to $40 too.

      My experience is that my Classifieds get nowhere close to the number of views of my WSOs, even with the extra time they're near the top of the forum, lower competition, and the same amount of promotional work (via signature links etc).

      Thom
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by impact-productions View Post

        The Classifieds have gone up to $40 too.
        Thom, I just looked in the Classified section and clicked on the link that explains how to pay for and bump a classified, it still lists $20 as the price.
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        • Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          Thom, I just looked in the Classified section and clicked on the link that explains how to pay for and bump a classified, it still lists $20 as the price.
          I just clicked the 'Promote' button on mine to check and it's quoting $40. I expect it just that the documentation's not been updated yet.

          To be fair, it wouldn't make sense to have different sections of the forum charging different prices.

          Thom
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      • Profile picture of the author admin
        Administrator
        Originally Posted by impact-productions View Post

        The Classifieds have gone up to $40 too.

        My experience is that my Classifieds get nowhere close to the number of views of my WSOs, even with the extra time they're near the top of the forum, lower competition, and the same amount of promotional work (via signature links etc).

        Thom

        Hmm...hold off on posting a classified if you where going to. The other sections were not supposed to go up. I'll get the programmer to fix that...
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          Hmm...hold off on posting a classified if you where going to. The other sections were not supposed to go up. I'll get the programmer to fix that...
          Was the Complete Sites for Sale section supposed to go up too?
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        • Profile picture of the author A Bary
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          Hmm...hold off on posting a classified if you where going to. The other sections were not supposed to go up. I'll get the programmer to fix that...

          Allen...could you plz clarify this?

          What "other section" do you mean? I clicked on "promote" link for an old WFH section thread and the pump costs $40!

          Thanks.

          A. Bary
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      Or a much better way if you are going to price your front end cheap and that is to have a solid backend gameplan where you make way more money.

      Case in point:

      AMAZING 7 dollar product that blow's people away...and the upsell is then a 30 day trial to a 37 dollar a month recurring membership. People then get 1 to 4 new reports a month.

      Say in the course of a month you only break even on the front end. 100 Buyers = 700 bucks but you bumped it 18 times.

      However, you convert at 20%, getting 20 people in your 37 dollar membership. They stay for an average of 3 months, so you get 1480 in profits.

      Plus you have a list of 100 people who adore your product and will buy more for you for free.

      Also, you can link to your thread in the sig file and get a lot exposure there.

      You can turn the buyers into affiliates to promote your product and get it to go viral.

      There are tons of things you can do to make it profitable...even if the cost was 200 bucks.

      Rob
      Finally... a true marketing brain speaks out. Nice post Rob, my sentiments exactly. It's this line of strategic thinking that makes the difference between the just above broke and the high flyers in this game.
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    • Profile picture of the author VioFX
      Quality over quantity, rather see 10 nice WSO's then 20 average WSO's, hopefully this change will make that happen.

      Intrigued to see the outcome, will be watching the WSO forum a little more now to see what quality products pop up.

      Cheers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Pradeep Bhagwat
      If price of WSO is hiked then it is sad news for newbies. I think those who had posted WSO they know how rapidly their WSO moves from first page to the next. It can happen for many reasons like

      - Bad product,
      - Good product but bad sales letter,
      - Technical problems for paying or contacting,
      - Tough competition,
      - Lack of friends to back you (In the form of positive commenting your thread) etc.

      I think by raising the fees it is going to be more tough for newbies. I think following can be done instead of hiking price through out -

      1. Can create special section for new offers and their fees should be less.
      2. After certain days limit that WSO thread will remain in that section.
      3) After certain days it will moved to matured thread section for another certain days.
      4) At last it will moved to final section where it will remain for certain days.
      For last step another fees structure can be developed.

      In this way Warriors will be get assured that their thread will be remain their for certain time and Warrior forum management also get fair money.

      (This is just thought. It can be developed. There is no limit...)

      - Pradeep
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      • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
        WSO's don't 'cost' $40 at all... if you run them correctly.

        In fact, WSOs should give you back many times your
        initial investment.

        Think about it...

        For $40 you get the opportunity to place your offer in
        front of an audience of proven buyers - many of them
        rabid - and some are complaining about the price hike?

        Come on guys and gals - it's time to think like a business
        person.

        Even if you only get ONE customer from each WSO you
        run, you're going to average over $40 in profit in the
        time their with you - if you know what you're doing.

        Create an irresistable front-end offer and then make even
        more money on the back-end.

        I despair at some of the stinking thinking and outright
        poverty consciousness expressed in some of the
        comments on this thread.

        Remember...

        "Poor thinking habits keeps most people poor." Earl Shoaff

        Dedicated to your success,

        Shaun
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    • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
      Banned
      Only change is permanent. And as long as heaven and earth remain, there will never be a perfect human system.

      Human beings are never satisfied. The owner of this forum can never satisfy every member of this forum. Make it free and some people will still ask questions why it should not be made "freer". Make it "freer" and some folks will still want it to be the "freest".
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    Here is my take...the warning would have been nice, but like anything else that does well prices go up.

    I like selling higher quality WSO for cheap as it can out to more people (I am sure if it was only about money, you can make the same on both cheap or expensive, depends on your game plan). This will force me to make the prices of my WSO more.

    Cheers
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    HA HA HA HA HA!!! Sorry, but this thread is hilarous.

    If the WSO forum IS your only source of income, and an increase in $20 for the fee is your main concern, what would you do if it was shut down forever?

    Bye bye business...!

    Here's the sensible approach...

    Take some of your eggs and put them in another basket.

    If you rely on the money that the WSO forum brings you, and you can't pay your bills without it - you should seriously consider the consequences of losing that income stream.

    If you're a freelancer, you're probably already leaving money on the table by not asking for repeat business from your existing clients.

    If you're offer products, build your FUNNEL, build your LIST and look after it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    For me (at least this year), my WSO's have been entry points into my funnel. I sell my stuff for stupidly low prices and ride the break-even point on the front end.

    For me, this will mean one of four things:
    1. I test raising/lowering prices so that I maintain the balance
    2. I bump fewer products and stop bumping sooner in the product cycle
    3. I work harder at adding new products to the funnel and bump the new WSO's for a briefer time period
    4. I stop using the WSO section for this purpose

    Of the four, #2 will happen first.


    (And if it goes away, it's really not a crisis.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    There was a warning... If you see the thread about WSO's and complaints that has been active in the last couple days, which is here you will see allen mentions this as a possibility.

    The post got lots of thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave d
    IMHO it wont raise the quality of WSO's because a lot of scammers are good at making money.

    If I run a WSO I plan on making more than $40 anyway or I wouldn't be runinng one.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Well, I only post my offers in the Complete Sites for Sale section as inexpensive PLR sites. This will change the number of listings I bump. When you don't have the huge headlines promising thousands in minutes, you don't have the same kind of sales, so it's a factor. I just lowered my prices, which I probably wouldn't have done if I had known.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      So, the WSO's have gone up from $20 to $40?

      That's good news.

      This is an opportunity for some people to improve their
      sales and marketing skills.

      And the higher price point will also knock-out some
      of the WSO charlatans who aren't making the money
      they claim.

      Unfortunately, it won't get rid of the scammers who
      are making the bucks by running wild claim WSOs though.

      Time to sharpen your marketing saw.

      Dedicated to your success,

      Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        So, the WSO's have gone up from $20 to $40?

        That's good news.

        This is an opportunity for some people to improve their
        sales and marketing skills.

        And the higher price point will also knock-out some
        of the WSO charlatans who aren't making the money
        they claim.

        Unfortunately, it won't get rid of the scammers who
        are making the bucks by running wild claim WSOs though.

        Time to sharpen your marketing saw.

        Dedicated to your success,

        Shaun
        Hi Shaun,

        That's what I was getting at. Thank you saying it so much better!

        Also, I used to be a saw sharpener before I went full-time in IM. I would sharpen about 100 carbide-tipped circular saws every day...ev-er-y day.

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author pavionjsl
    I'm on the more is better side. 60-100 would even be better.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    For those of you chasing black helicopters...

    Only Allen knows for sure, but I strongly suspect that many of the changes he's made to the WSO policies have lowered his income from that section. This change will probably do the same (short term). Only time will tell what it will mean for him in the long term.

    If you honestly think Allen is trying to milk this forum for all he can, you really need to open your eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author keadams26
    More money is the only reason. I find it humorous that so many people are trying to make excuses for the increase in prices when the real reason is as plain as day. So many of you want to act like this place is run by folks who are saintly. Only in it to help others when, in fact, they are just like us and want to make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Follow the link in my sig to get my new report:

    HOW TO LIST/BUMP YOUR WSO FOR FREE!!!
    ONLY $97

    Only 50 copies remaining
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    I think the price increase can end up being a good thing, and I hardly believe Alan raised the price to bilk more money out of the WSO section.

    I also think a more strict enforcement of the WSO rules needs to take place, and income claims if can't be substantiated should not be allowed in any part of a wso thread.

    People offering services by using accounts they have with other vendors should be completely cut from the forum in my opinion. If they don't own the site they have no business using it to make money which takes away from the original owners potential market. It is especially bad that Vendor A who, spent tons of time, and money to provide a service to have a member of that service turn around and be allowed to resell it on the same venue resulting in competing against the the vendor who actually owns the service. That's not good, I don't tolerate it and its against my TOS and I do find my users who do it and ban them immediately. Sorry kinda ended up ranting there a bit. = )

    Just my two cents.

    PS: I plan on bumping every other day btw. = )
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    • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post


      People offering services by using accounts they have with other vendors should be completely cut from the forum in my opinion. If they don't own the site they have no business using it to make money which takes away from the original owners potential market.
      PS: I plan on bumping every other day btw. = )
      You must mean like people creating an operation using "Fivvr.com" eh? lol

      So, you are prepared to take a $300 increase to your expense per month, for an actual monthly spend of $600 per month for 1 WSO?

      What if you had 5 WSO's that you are running? You are prepared to have a direct spend of $3,000?

      I'd really like to hear some input on that one.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by templarjustice View Post

        You must mean like people creating an operation using "Fivvr.com" eh? lol

        So, you are prepared to take a $300 increase to your expense per month, for an actual monthly spend of $600 per month for 1 WSO?

        What if you had 5 WSO's that you are running? You are prepared to have a direct spend of $3,000?

        I'd really like to hear some input on that one.
        Okay, so if that person really has their marketing act together, they are funnelling 100% of the front-end sale back into their marketing and advertising budget and making their money off of upsells and continuity instead of pulling this typical drive-by shooting, wannabe attempts at running a business.

        That means if a person is jamming $3000 in marketing because that's how much they're selling on the front end, I would expect that they're doing, at minimum, twice that in upsells, additional promotions, and continuity revenue.
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        • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          Okay, so if that person really has their marketing act together, they are funnelling 100% of the front-end sale back into their marketing and advertising budget and making their money off of upsells and continuity instead of pulling this typical drive-by shooting, wannabe attempts at running a business.

          That means if a person is jamming $3000 in marketing because that's how much they're selling on the front end, I would expect that they're doing, at minimum, twice that in upsells, additional promotions, and continuity revenue.
          Exactly, that's why I pondered the question to Rus Sells --

          You do know my calcs. were based on his statement of:
          "I plan to bump every other day"......So, I'd definitely like to see what he's prepared to bring to the table and how long it will last.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Yes and namely the exact same venue I advertise my services on, namely here.

        Am I prepared to take an increase in advertising cost's? Yes of course I am and if I had my way the wso section would not allow others to ride on the coat tails of others efforts, time and money spent in creaing a service to only have it resold on the exact same venue. I'd probably make up that much more in new users which would cover the increased advertising cost's if it wasn't allowed, and in my opinion according to the current wso rules its not allowed. Rule 8.



        Originally Posted by templarjustice View Post

        You must mean like people creating an operation using "Fivvr.com" eh? lol

        So, you are prepared to take a $300 increase to your expense per month, for an actual monthly spend of $600 per month for 1 WSO?

        What if you had 5 WSO's that you are running? You are prepared to have a direct spend of $3,000?

        I'd really like to hear some input on that one.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          To those commenting about how the fee increase will lead to higher priced products. The listing price of a WSO going from $20 to $40 doesn't automatically mean the prices charged for products and services will increase.

          What it does mean is that your cost of acquiring a customer will double IF everything else stays the same.

          If you averaged 20 customers with the $20 fee, it cost you $1 to acquire a customer. If you averaged 20 customers with the $40 fee, it cost you $2 to acquire a customer. So yeah, your cost of acquisition doubled, but it's still minuscule.

          Besides that, arbitrarily raising the price of your product or service just because the price of the ad went to $40 is absurd. Especially if a bunch of other people have the same knee jerk reaction.

          What if everyone else took the short sighted approach of raising their prices to cover a rather small increase in fixed costs and you instead...

          Ran a test dropping your price from $17 to $7 (rather than increasing to $27). If you're one of the few really inexpensive offers remaining in a marketplace that's been trained to expect inexpensive products and services, you just might sell more. If you tripled your conversion rate and sold 30 units instead of 10, you would have $210 instead of $170. You made $40 more. So you cover the increased listing fee, and you walk away with an extra $20 and 20 more customers.

          Point is...test. Don't just raise your prices because your first reaction is that it's the best way to cover an extra $20 of fixed costs.

          I tell you what I would do. I'd get my ducks in a row and nail down the lifetime value of a new WSO customer. Then I'd optimize the heck out of my offer so that it secured the maximum number of customers. Even if I had to lower my prices to do so.
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          • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
            Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

            To those commenting about how the fee increase will lead to higher priced products. The listing price of a WSO going from $20 to $40 doesn't automatically mean the prices charged for products and services will increase.

            What it does mean is that your cost of acquiring a customer will double IF everything else stays the same.

            If you averaged 20 customers with the $20 fee, it cost you $1 to acquire a customer. If you averaged 20 customers with the $40 fee, it cost you $2 to acquire a customer. So yeah, your cost of acquisition doubled, but it's still minuscule.

            Besides that, arbitrarily raising the price of your product or service just because the price of the ad went to $40 is absurd. Especially if a bunch of other people have the same knee jerk reaction.

            What if everyone else took the short sighted approach of raising their prices to cover a rather small increase in fixed costs and you instead...

            Ran a test dropping your price from $17 to $7 (rather than increasing to $27). If you're one of the few really inexpensive offers remaining in a marketplace that's been trained to expect inexpensive products and services, you just might sell more. If you tripled your conversion rate and sold 30 units instead of 10, you would have $210 instead of $170. You made $40 more. So you cover the increased listing fee, and you walk away with an extra $20 and 20 more customers.

            Point is...test. Don't just raise your prices because your first reaction is that it's the best way to cover an extra $20 of fixed costs.

            I tell you what I would do. I'd get my ducks in a row and nail down the lifetime value of a new WSO customer. Then I'd optimize the heck out of my offer so that it secured the maximum number of customers. Even if I had to lower my prices to do so.

            The logic is the same for increasing the price even HIGHER than $40.
            If the WSO fee was $80, then you can still lower your product prices, and "POTENTIALLY" gain more exposure because your WSO is their longer.

            I challenge everyone to request even going higher, & see what happens then.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marc_L
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      People offering services by using accounts they have with other vendors should be completely cut from the forum in my opinion. If they don't own the site they have no business using it to make money which takes away from the original owners potential market. It is especially bad that Vendor A who, spent tons of time, and money to provide a service to have a member of that service turn around and be allowed to resell it on the same venue resulting in competing against the the vendor who actually owns the service. That's not good, I don't tolerate it and its against my TOS and I do find my users who do it and ban them immediately. Sorry kinda ended up ranting there a bit.
      If Vendor A makes it clear to his members of the TOS then this wouldn't happen. It isn't the WF job to police your TOS. Most people don't willingly break the TOS of any service they are a member of. And who knows, maybe if your service is so good that once someone tries it they become a member themselves. That could happen.
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      • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
        Originally Posted by Marc_L View Post

        If Vendor A makes it clear to his members of the TOS then this wouldn't happen. It isn't the WF job to police your TOS. Most people don't willingly break the TOS of any service they are a member of. And who knows, maybe if your service is so good that once someone tries it they become a member themselves. That could happen.

        But they do make it their business to police other websites TOS.
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        • Profile picture of the author Hanz
          Those people selling $7 products will now likely be increasing to $17. But that will still be a "special offer not found elsewhere" so who can really complain?:p All that happens is you get the same amount of buyers and end up with less profit. The WSO Forum will move just as fast as it always did. And bad products will still be bad products. Nothing will change on that end.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Marc,

        Despite how clear or not clear a TOS is or even If I allowed a user to resell it wouldn't still in my opinion and understanding of rule 8 on the wso forum be allowed.

        I'm not just looking at it from my perspective. Why does rule 8 say no services may be offered unless you "OWN the SITE" your offing services for.

        I wonder why Alan instituted that rule.

        You might be shocked how many users I have found reselling my services on the very same forums, more then you'd think. Many I am sure don't give it a second thought, they only care to make as much money as they can with a product they don't own, have no control over, didn't invest time and money in, and are now directly competing for the very same new users I am. Somehow that does not bode well with me and I am sure it wouldn't bode well with any one else who has taken the time and effort to provide something.

        Another thought I had should be that the cost of entry for having a WSO could be higher and then the daily bumping could stay where its at.

        Maybe $200 dollar fee for registering a WSO, then the daily bumping could stay where it is, or something like that.


        PS: I bumped my WSO 6 hours ago and its now a measly 12 spots from the bottom. Time will only tell if the price increase will slow down the bumping or not.


        Originally Posted by Marc_L View Post

        If Vendor A makes it clear to his members of the TOS then this wouldn't happen. It isn't the WF job to police your TOS. Most people don't willingly break the TOS of any service they are a member of. And who knows, maybe if your service is so good that once someone tries it they become a member themselves. That could happen.
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  • Profile picture of the author Niteprowler
    The only effect will be that the price for buying WSO's will rise too. It seems that where there used to be plenty of $ 10 and $ 12 WSO's that now $ 17/27/37 seem to be the norm. The "SO" portion of WSO's seems to be forgotten by many who see the WSO as the means to a quick buck without the thought of giving back to the community.

    Not that I expect much else these days.... but there are many Warriors who still offer a great deal on their WSO's and really deliver.... and many who don't.
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    I think this will hurt the little guys a lot.

    The guys with plenty of money and reputation won't even notice the price increase.
    The little guys need to stop thinking like little guys though, and realise that the money is OUT there waiting for them to claim it.

    It's not as hard as people want to believe it is.

    Most of the little guys just have to actually DO something instead of hoping that things will come to them - they have to take the fight to their target market.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Voss
    First, I am glad that Allen did not make an announcement that this was going to occur. I fully believe that this would have resulted in a MASSIVE flood of bumps and posts. The net result would have been a lot of wasted cash, because several people would have been on page 1 one moment and pushed out the next.

    There is an option of the person who is on the fence about whether or not they should post a WSO, because they are not sure if they will cover the $40 price.

    Go ahead and make your WSO offer, but place it on the classified ad portion of the forum. Then place the link to that in your sig file and start contributing like crazy to the forum.

    If you minimally price your offer at the very low end of $7, then you only need to make 6 sales before you have earned enough to cover the WSO cost. Then invest that amount and post the WSO.

    The best part about that is by the time you do this, you will find that you have a good group of testimonials for the offer.

    -Scott Voss
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    I think this will hurt the little guys a lot.
    I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind this line of thinking.

    You're only a "little guy" (or gal) if you think you are.

    If you have a good offer, the increase to $40 won't affect a "little guy" any differently than the "guys with plenty of money and reputation". It's not like you're running a full page magazine ad and the price just went from $15,000 to $30,000.

    It's $40. And your ad gets put in front of thousands of people looking to buy. They don't just happen across your ad while reading the current issue's spin on "7 easy steps to 6 pack abs". These are people that fit a certain demographic and psychographic that come to a specific forum looking to spend money on specific types of products and services.

    If you don't have an offer capable of generating a positive ROI in a situation like that, you're a "little guy" because of your mindset rather than your bank account balance.
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  • Profile picture of the author russells
    It'll certainly cut some of the crap going through!
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    I don't sell there and rarely buy, so not really a real consideration for me personally... :rolleyes:

    My take is if some of the money were used to 'check' at least new people that do not already have a rep's 1st 1-3 WSOs, that might be the solution to the 'crappy WSO' problem. Of course, people that have a history of good WSOs do not need to be checked.

    Otherwise, if you think about it, $40 is not an outrageous amount for what you are getting. If you were not selling on this forum, you'd likely be spending 10+ times that in time and/or money marketing a sales page.:confused:

    Someone mentioned Allen's income would go from $900,000 a year to 1.8 million on that one board; his income is really not a factor, IMHO. He is allowed (in America) to make as much as he possibly can. That is just a reality and I do not think anyone, with an ounce of sense, can defend that he ought not to be making as much as he can.

    My ½ a cent

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
    Ya know, I'm reading about all this "good" and "I'm glad", and this is done for a reason stuff. Yes, it can possibly be a good thing.

    However, step out of your shoes for a moment. Most of the people make the "I'm glad" comments, and "it should be more" statements, are from the United States! Payments are made in U.S dollars. $40 U.S. in some countries will be $80 in comparison in their currency.

    So the question becomes, are the people creating craptacular WSO's in foreign countries?

    The only thing an increase in price will do is: 1.) Raise product prices, and 2.)Potentially raise quality.

    Instead of text based Ebooks, we'll have some with graphics.
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by templarjustice View Post

      Ya know, I'm reading about all this "good" and "I'm glad", and this is done for a reason stuff. Yes, it can possibly be a good thing.

      However, step out of your shoes for a moment. Most of the people make the "I'm glad" comments, and "it should be more" statements, are from the United States! Payments are made in U.S dollars. $40 U.S. in some countries will be $80 in comparison in their currency.

      So the question becomes, are the people creating craptacular WSO's in foreign countries?

      The only thing an increase in price will do is: 1.) Raise product prices, and 2.)Potentially raise quality.

      Instead of text based Ebooks, we'll have some with graphics.
      Yeah but those Americans that bought your product at $20 were, and still are, equal to $40 wherever you are.
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    • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
      Originally Posted by templarjustice View Post

      ...However, step out of your shoes for a moment. Most of the people make the "I'm glad" comments, and "it should be more" statements, are from the United States! Payments are made in U.S dollars. $40 U.S. in some countries will be $80 in comparison in their currency....
      Currency conversion is irrelevant. Regardless of where one is from the cost to list a WSO has doubled. Period.

      Elmer
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  • I'm a little depressed about this move.
    Double the price is a bad move, made only to rush up mor emoney I think.
    The problem is Warrior Forum has no competition at all, and the next month can double it to $80.

    By the other side, we will stay on page 1 for longer, because we will never see the newbies trying to see $5 reports or make a try.
    And that's a good thing.

    We will see in a few weeks if this move is made with care or not.
    But I think the boys at WF have took their time to decide and fully evaluate positive and negative issues of their action.

    I know only that is difficult to recover $40, and especially the Bumps are gone up too much.
    The prices will go up, and I think they will be doubled as well, and this is a bad things for customers but good for sellers.

    It's a bad day, also because that was at all unexpected and I'm not prepared and a little bit confused.

    Think people, think...
    Only the time can give us a solution.

    See you soon,
    Alessandro Zamboni
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    • Profile picture of the author SGTech
      I don't see the problem with a price increase but 100% seems a little much. I could see going from $20 to $30. Hopefully it will cut down on the clutter but somehow I doubt it. I doubt this will affect people adversely. If your WSO is $27, all that means is that you have to sell 2 copies instead of 1 to pay for your WSO listing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
      Originally Posted by Alessandro Zamboni View Post

      The problem is Warrior Forum has no competition at all, and the next month can double it to $80.
      The WF has plenty of competition and most of them allow you to post offers for free.

      I think if the WSO costs too much for people, there's always PPC.. which can end up costing A LOT more than $40 for the same amount of leads.. give that a try for a laugh.
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  • Profile picture of the author jedediahd
    I only skimmed the thread, but want to put in my 2 cents about this, sorry if any of this is a repeat. I feel like eliminating the crap would be great, the make xxxx in 1 day by eating bananas crap has to go, but you want to know the only real way to eliminate it? Its not making WSO's $200, its to stop consuming it. Stop buying crap after you have read 5,000 threads about how there is not magic button or system, stop falling prey to sleazy sales tactics, your not going to make 9k in 7 days watching over his or her shoulder. The other thing I want to bring up is how much is a small classified ad in a niche magazine or periodical? When you compare costs, $40 may seem great, ot it may seem outrageous, but you have to compare. Sure go sell on DP or other places, deal with everyone asking for review copies and others saying untrue negative crap about something you are selling. I think the $40 wso gives some nice protection of staying within the community.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    I run a ton of WSO's and I welcome this and any future price increases. I imagine the exposure on page 1 will increase.
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  • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
    What really needs to be done is ADD some more Moderators to the payroll!
    Change can come from actual work vs. automation too.
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  • Profile picture of the author admin
    Administrator
    I haven't read this whole thread yet but I have to make a point many here seem to be missing or simply not know about.

    People on the Internet are incredibly spoiled. I started out offline, in classifieds ads. Try your hand at making money with those in the back of magazines and then come back here to the WSO section and see the difference.

    The fact is, $20 is so cheap that people don't even have to try. They don't even to learn basic copywriting skills. They don't have to do much more than spend an evening writing up some junk and throwing it up there.

    Please, do me a favor and give offline classifieds a shot. I can tell you now that 99% of the people who make money online right now would fail offline. Probably more...

    Even at $40 the truth is it's still too cheap for the amount of traffic that comes through here. If I was someone out to truly squeeze every dime out of a site possible things would be far different than they are right now, trust me on that.

    Allen
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      I haven't read this whole thread yet but I have to make a point many here seem to be missing or simply not know about.

      People on the Internet are incredibly spoiled. I started out offline, in classifieds ads. Try your hand at making money with those in the back of magazines and then come back here to the WSO section and see the difference.

      The fact is, $20 is so cheap that people don't even have to try. They don't even to learn basic copywriting skills. They don't have to do much more than spend an evening writing up some junk and throwing it up there.

      Please, do me a favor a give offline classifieds a shot. I can tell you now that 99% of the people who make money online right now would fail offline. Probably more...

      Even at $40 the truth is it's still too cheap for the amount of traffic that comes through here. If I was someone out to truly squeeze every dime out of a site possible things would be far different than they are right now, trust me on that.

      Allen
      It's posts like this that make me wish there were a way to click the Thanks button more than once.

      I also have to apologize. While I have mentioned a few positives, I have already spent too much time considering the potentially negative aspects of this change.

      What separates the failures from the successful? I don't know for sure, but if it's a measly $20 then something's wrong.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        That's so true, Michael. I know that I have no one to blame but myself for not setting up a decent funnel and listbuilding system to begin with. I'm not happy with the increase right now but I understand why Allen did it and I hope it does what he intends. And I know that it's my own fault for not having set my business up properly before now...lol.

        Tina
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    • Profile picture of the author Maddi
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      I haven't read this whole thread yet but I have to make a point many here seem to be missing or simply not know about.

      People on the Internet are incredibly spoiled. I started out offline, in classifieds ads. Try your hand at making money with those in the back of magazines and then come back here to the WSO section and see the difference.

      The fact is, $20 is so cheap that people don't even have to try. They don't even to learn basic copywriting skills. They don't have to do much more than spend an evening writing up some junk and throwing it up there.

      Please, do me a favor a give offline classifieds a shot. I can tell you now that 99% of the people who make money online right now would fail offline. Probably more...

      Even at $40 the truth is it's still too cheap for the amount of traffic that comes through here. If I was someone out to truly squeeze every dime out of a site possible things would be far different than they are right now, trust me on that.

      Allen
      Yup, agreed. had to constantly worry about making enough $50-70 sales to break even when advertising costs on the low started from $300 for 5 days in a very tiny space with lots of competition on a not so popular newspaper with no more than 5 lines to write copy.

      Wish there was a Beer emoticon to pass you on this one. The entry point is still too low.

      I just wish it works out for the better for people who are starting to do Warrior Special Offers and not turn them off, only give them enough drive and boost to provide quality offers at reasonable prices and not try to make a quick buck.

      Maddi
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      I haven't read this whole thread yet but I have to make a point many here seem to be missing or simply not know about.

      People on the Internet are incredibly spoiled. I started out offline, in classifieds ads. Try your hand at making money with those in the back of magazines and then come back here to the WSO section and see the difference.

      The fact is, $20 is so cheap that people don't even have to try. They don't even to learn basic copywriting skills. They don't have to do much more than spend an evening writing up some junk and throwing it up there.

      Please, do me a favor and give offline classifieds a shot. I can tell you now that 99% of the people who make money online right now would fail offline. Probably more...

      Even at $40 the truth is it's still too cheap for the amount of traffic that comes through here. If I was someone out to truly squeeze every dime out of a site possible things would be far different than they are right now, trust me on that.

      Allen
      Since Allen put it that way... I retract all my skepticism.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    My goodness there's a lot of entitlement complex going on in this thread.

    Wake up everyone. This forum doesn't owe you anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      My goodness there's a lot of entitlement complex going on in this thread.

      Wake up everyone. This forum doesn't owe you anything.
      As my daughter would say: "Ba-ba! Binky!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      My goodness there's a lot of entitlement complex going on in this thread.

      Wake up everyone. This forum doesn't owe you anything.
      Bingo. I have no problem with Alan making as much money as possible.

      My thoughts on this move:

      1) This will not reduce the amount of wso's by half ($40 is still a bargain)

      2) It will (unfortunately) not eliminate all the rubbish in that forum

      3) I believe that a further price increase would benefit 2 types of people. It would benefit people with good wso's and it would benefit those buying them.

      My thoughts, but it is only the thoughts of one person that counts in this topic.


      regards

      -Simon
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  • Profile picture of the author jkmg
    I think if you look at the effects mathematically you will gain better insight into the effects. For example, If the majority of the people believe it will slow down the thread then what is the natural progression?...Bump your thread at the optimal time. Now if only 30 of us believe that is at 5:00PM on Tuesday, then guess what? You just spent $40 to be potentially number 30 on page 1 in a matter of minutes. In other words, the problem is not solved, and that theory is disproven.

    Now...

    Let's say the majority of people think it will change nothing. What is the natural progression then? Do the SAME thing you have always done and the speed of the thread remains relatively the same. No change.

    I can tell you from a personal point of view, I will no longer be bumping my thread. I refuse to sell to 300+ people at a great price and then jack it up because I have to make 3x as many sales to cover the cost. That is just bad business IMHO (Not bad in the real world, but definitely bad for a WSO that explicitly states the price MUST be lower than what the buyer can get elsewhere. One of the fundamental driving principals of a WSO IS the cost!

    $7 is a common bargain for a WSO, and instead of 3 sales to cover the cost it now requires 6. Six sales for a brand new WSO from an unknown marketer is a daunting task. And it's not just 6 sales. It's 6 sales every day or every other day (or every third day). That only comes easy to handful of marketers.

    Now before some of you go off the deep end about "well, create a high quality product and develop a good reputation", remember this:

    The majority of the most successful marketers of WSO's developed that reputation as a result of free posting. Testing the waters was easy and FREE. That is not even remotely an option for many now. The caveat to this is the majority of brand new WSO's will likely be the products of established and reputable marketers which will offer "them" free reign over cost.

    I have found a lot of great stuff at $7 in the past, but the important thing to note here is that I found it BECAUSE it was $7. Not everyone can be a great copywriter, and regardless of how good a product is, the message isn't always going to be conveyed clearly. Some of you are outstanding marketers, the rest of us may not be. But that is of no consequence to the quality of products being marketed.

    I agree that $40 is extremely unappealing to a new marketer who has NO idea how their product will perform.

    I also agree that driving traffic from alternate sources is a great solution.

    Now after reading the entire thread I must say that the "surprise" of the price increase was the only way to go with this.

    As an individual living on a fixed (and very humble) income, this affects me significantly, notwithstanding the fact I never tried to scam anyone here.

    Maybe a better solution may have been a requirement to submit the actual product for evaluation prior to posting the WSO, I don't know.

    Just my 2 1/2 cents! :-)

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Personally, I don't think that the price of entry will have any effect on quality. Some of my favorite gems from the WSO section came from some very poorly written headlines. The only way we're going to weed out bad players is to have more people get involved in leaving feedback after a purchase.
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  • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
    Just let's be clear here:
    1. WSO's - $40
    2. WSO Bumps - $40
    3. Classified (currently at $40) -- but that will be fixed.
    4. Products & Services - $40 ??
    5. Warriors for hire -- $40??

    Not sure on 4 & 5 - anyone can clear that up?
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by templarjustice View Post

      Just let's be clear here:
      1. WSO's - $40
      2. WSO Bumps - $40
      3. Classified (currently at $40) -- but that will be fixed.
      4. Products & Services - $40 ??
      5. Warriors for hire -- $40??

      Not sure on 4 & 5 - anyone can clear that up?
      Allen said it is not for the other sections - just the WSO section. That was an error.

      Tina
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      • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        Allen said it is not for the other sections - just the WSO section. That was an error.

        Tina

        Ahh, that makes more sense then. I didn't see where it was said.
        Are you sure, cause I thought the error was just for the Classifieds?
        I'm trying to locate where he stated this.

        But yeah, then if this is the case, then it validates my points I was making.

        Thanks Tina
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  • Profile picture of the author cweber
    The price should not be a problem if it does actually manage to weed out any of the crap. If it does, great, I would like to pay $40 to have my wso stay on the first page for longer when I launch my article writing wso.
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  • Profile picture of the author Caiden
    Just posted a WSO and noticed the change. Came to the main forum to rant and saw this thread. I've read it.....I get it.....I'm over it!

    Caiden
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  • It's just made it more expensive (doubled the price) for lead generation.

    Those people starting out, or with a legit service trying to make a name for themselves will find it too expensive, unless they learn or hire someone expert at copywriting to make them sales to cover the cost.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    lol I bet this thread goes on for pages.

    Where do I stand in this, well lets put it this way, I stopped posting WSO's months ago because I just couldn't see the point. It got lost very quickly amongst the crap.

    I looked in there earlier today and clicked away because it was suh a mess. I'll probably start using it again now it's getting cleaned up.

    I used to use the WSO forum mainly to test out my stuff and to give warriors a decent price on articles and whatever else I was selling, I've never used it as a main source of income and to be honest if you're doing so, then you're mad.

    I mentioned in a previous thread on this topic, and I think its been said on this thread also, where else could you put your product in front of so many laser targeted prospects for such a small amount of money. (A definite entitlement mentality in this place)..

    Count yourself lucky the boss didn't raise the price any higher. (I'd certainly be ok with it if he did)

    Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author templarjustice
    In the end, it will definitely hurt some of the business models in various niches.
    Again, you look at a graphic designer vs. a software developer.

    There is a complete difference in production in both categories. I'm not just talking about WSO's here -- I'm talking about each pay for section -- particularly for example SITES FOR SALE section.

    That can be considered like a WSO as well, based on the same service level being provided. So this is why some people definitely have a valid & legitimate disagreement with a high price increase. Again, if any of the stated logic was true, than why not make it $80 or even $100? If this is about length of exposure as one issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
      Originally Posted by templarjustice View Post

      In the end, it will definitely hurt some of the business models in various niches. Again, you look at a graphic designer vs. a software developer.
      Not quite... (re: graphic designers)

      I charge 3x as much as some of the people who advertise in the WSO section and I get my fee. When I stopped relying on WSO for my income, my income tripled in a short space of time - because I actually had to THINK and learn to market better. I made a conscious effort to get out of my comfort zone.

      It's really time for a lot of people to get out of their bubble - the WSO comfort blanket isn't a viable business model for a long term business.

      You can see how important the WSO section is for a lot of people... I wonder how many of those will be sitting, miserable at a desk in a year's time because they didn't realise there's more to earning online and develop the skills necessary to sustain their income.
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorzX
    This is so funny!
    Do I take this to mean that you guys didn't actually:
    "Make a $1M in three days selling octopus sweat" or
    "receive $38k daily from frying rats spleens"
    WSO price up is good. Means the quality will improve.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Pikachoo View Post

      This is so funny!
      Do I take this to mean that you guys didn't actually:
      "Make a $1M in three days selling octopus sweat" or
      "receive $38k daily from frying rats spleens"
      WSO price up is good. Means the quality will improve.
      Somehow I doubt this. This is exactly what many buyers are actually looking for. They want the outrageous promises of instant wealth or instant top Google rankings, etc.

      I've never been comfortable with that type of business model. My core business is service based ... creating websites. There's a lot of work involved and a lot of customer service involved.

      Writers, designers, site builders ... the people who don't resort to the incredible headlines that don't deliver on their promise are the ones who will be affected most.

      I have a lot of niche sites that I offer on the WF very cheaply. I've created a separate listing for each one, and there's quite a few. I used to bump 3 at a time of different niches. I found that to be an effective way to get some sales, but nothing like the WSOs with incredible headlines that go flying off the shelves. Not even close.

      I'm lucky in that I've been building a great list for awhile now. It's not huge, but it's responsive.

      In addition, there's a lot in the Complete Sites for Sale section that are selling one site to one person for a fixed price. Often a pretty low price. These are not the type of listings that I have seen as problematic and I didn't even think Complete Sites for Sale was part of the WSO section. It's listed in the Warriors Products and Services section ... not the WSO section.
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  • Profile picture of the author shabit87
    I'm thinking a couple of things.
    1. I HOPE to see marketers actually making money sharing how they can afford to post and bump there WSOs LOL just kidding.

    2. Warriors are going to have to be more creative in their approach to get buyers. How can you still be the $7 seller and still rack up? How can you remain the same despite the changes around you. Its possible, and we'll find out who can do it and who can't.

    3. With a higher price tags, you'll have less posting and bumps which should mean a longer life on page one...gives people a chance to make some cash. Woohoo!

    4. People will think twice before putting junk up, because everyone who comments will have a higher chance of being seen, so if you get a lot of comments saying your stuff is junk more people will see and it'll crush your credibility. Think twice about putting up junk.

    Just some thoughts, but who knows what will come of this change. Hopefully nothing but good :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    make it $50 and pay a wso mod or two a few $ to weed out the crap while the update / changes are in the water.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    If you think increasing the price from $20 to $40 will halve the number of posts/bumps then you are saying that 50% of people posting/bumping are selling > $20 and < $40 on each post/bump.

    If you think increasing the price from $20 to $40 will double the price of the item for sale I suggest you find a text book and look up "fixed vs variable costs".
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by Pikachoo View Post

    WSO price up is good. Means the quality will improve.
    Maybe. Might also just mean you'll pay a little more for the same old crap.

    I hope Allen is correct that this will help weed out the garbage, but it could be nothing more than inflation. Just like businesses pass on the cost of higher taxes to consumers, junk peddlers might pass on the cost of higher WSO fees to buyers.

    Or maybe they'll just take the hit. If a crap WSO sells for $20 and it sells a modest 30 copies, that's $600. If he paid $20 to make that $600 he clears $580. If he pays $40 he clears $560. I don't see that as being a big hindrance myself, but Allen has information I don't have access to, so like I said, I hope he's right about it weeding out the junk.

    I just hope it doesn't clear out so many marginal sellers that the percentage of crap actually increases.

    PS - If it does clear out the crap, I think I'll post a new WSO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      If a crap WSO sells for $20 and it sells a modest 30 copies, that's $600. If he paid $20 to make that $600 he clears $580. If he pays $40 he clears $560. I don't see that as being a big hindrance myself
      This was how I instinctively looked at it, myself, I must say.

      I'm not quite living on the same planet as the people commenting that it's "doubled" and/or that it's "unkind to the little guy".

      The $20 "extra" should be compared not with the original $20 charge but with the $xxx or $xxxx receipts, surely? :confused:

      I've never done a WSO so I'm not entitled to an opinion. I'll rephrase that: I've never done a WSO so I'm entirely objective and impartial and more entitled to an opinion than many. Reading the thread quickly, my own instinctive feelings were to agree with the people suggesting $100 as an appropriate price for advertising a WSO. And it that's too much, maybe $75. Not that it's any of our damn business to vote on it in the first place!
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  • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
    Banned
    $40 or $50? Bring it on.

    I just realised that the price was raised today. Less Junk more quality WSOs
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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post

      $40 or $50? Bring it on.

      I just realised that the price was raised today. Less Junk more quality WSOs
      But how do you figure that Naseem? Do you think scammers have less money to spend on marketing junk WSOs? Junk is going to pollute the WSO forum no matter what. You can't stop it. All marketers are promoting their products to the very same customers. This hurts the good sellers as well.
      Just my 2 cents.
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    • Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post

      By raising the price he is going to cut out all the junk and I applaud his efforts for doing that.
      Imran:

      I personally don't think that's going to happen. I certainly don't mind the price increase, as I've said I never run a WSO seeking profit on the WSO itself anyhow. But I suspect the move will cut down on SOME junk, but certainly not all of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author imon32red
    I think it's a great idea. It will keep more of the crap out. If you are really worried about recouping that $20, your WSO probably needs some work.
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    I'm not selling anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      Originally Posted by imon32red View Post

      I think it's a great idea. It will keep more of the crap out. If you are really worried about recouping that $20, your WSO probably needs some work.
      Most marketers made their money selling crap. That's how it all began. Furthermore, those who bought products and voiced their displeasure often had their comments deleted so the seller could continue marketing their rubbish. The WSO will continue to be a haven for a lot of junk. Nothing will stop that. The newbies will not know any better either. They want quick results and quick money. And every crap WSO with appealing sales copy promising them the world will make sales. The price increase does nothing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by imon32red View Post

      I think it's a great idea. It will keep more of the crap out.
      Time will tell.

      Anyway, this WSO listing fee increase should serve notice to anyone who has been putting off getting a War Room membership. Someday Allen may come to his senses and raise the membership fee to $97.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        Originally Posted by Jesse Kemmerer View Post

        This whole situation kind of reminds me of governmental
        intervention in free markets... usually when the government
        (or any other outside force) interferes with the natural price
        of a good being sold, no good comes from it.
        This doesn't apply in this situation. This isn't a free market - it's Allen's market. The only "natural price" is what he decides it will be.

        Tina
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        There is something else folks need to keep in mind (and I'm just playing
        devil's advocate here) it's not just $40 for the WSO.

        If you're new to the forum, to even run a WSO, you have to join the War
        Room, which is $37.

        So your first WSO costs you $77.

        If you're a programmer, selling a $27 script (normal price) at $7 because
        you really want to make a great offer to Warriors (after all, isn't that what
        the WSO forum is supposed to be about?) then you're going to need 11
        sales just to break even.

        And please don't jump all over me saying if you can't make 11 sales of
        a $7 script you don't belong being a marketer.

        Remember, this person isn't a marketer. They're not teaching you how to
        make umpteen million dollars a year.

        They have a simple script that will help you with an aspect of your
        business.

        These type of products tend to be low profile relatively speaking versus
        the "make a million overnight" stuff. If you think I'm kidding, somebody
        show my a script by somebody other than a long standing member with
        a list the size of Texas that is making a killing at the WSO forum.

        For some markets (and this is just a statement of fact) the WSO forum
        is NOT the best place to promote as it is. And with an increased cost, it
        becomes even less desirable.

        Look, I know what sells. And the folks doing this a while know what sells
        and know how to maximize their return using this forum.

        We're called marketers folks.

        Problem is, not everybody using that forum is a marketer.

        We seem to forget that.

        Just my 2 cents on the subject.
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        • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          There is something else folks need to keep in mind (and I'm just playing
          devil's advocate here) it's not just $40 for the WSO.

          If you're new to the forum, to even run a WSO, you have to join the War
          Room, which is $37.

          So your first WSO costs you $77.

          If you're a programmer, selling a $27 script (normal price) at $7 because
          you really want to make a great offer to Warriors (after all, isn't that what
          the WSO forum is supposed to be about?) then you're going to need 11
          sales just to break even.

          And please don't jump all over me saying if you can't make 11 sales of
          a $7 script you don't belong being a marketer.

          Remember, this person isn't a marketer. They're not teaching you how to
          make umpteen million dollars a year.

          They have a simple script that will help you with an aspect of your
          business.

          These type of products tend to be low profile relatively speaking versus
          the "make a million overnight" stuff. If you think I'm kidding, somebody
          show my a script by somebody other than a long standing member with
          a list the size of Texas that is making a killing at the WSO forum.

          For some markets (and this is just a statement of fact) the WSO forum
          is NOT the best place to promote as it is. And with an increased cost, it
          becomes even less desirable.

          Look, I know what sells. And the folks doing this a while know what sells
          and know how to maximize their return using this forum.

          We're called marketers folks.

          Problem is, not everybody using that forum is a marketer.

          We seem to forget that.

          Just my 2 cents on the subject.
          Steven I missed you.

          Love reading your posts...I agree with you on this one.

          $40 is nothing if you are confident then I do not see why $40 is an issue.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          True, some may say that they just want to give back and it isn't about the money.

          But if you're not willing to give back because you risk possibly losing up to $40 (or $77 if you're not yet a War Room member), then I contend that your giving back is about the money.

          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          There is something else folks need to keep in mind (and I'm just playing
          devil's advocate here) it's not just $40 for the WSO.

          If you're new to the forum, to even run a WSO, you have to join the War
          Room, which is $37.

          So your first WSO costs you $77.

          If you're a programmer, selling a $27 script (normal price) at $7 because
          you really want to make a great offer to Warriors (after all, isn't that what
          the WSO forum is supposed to be about?) then you're going to need 11
          sales just to break even.

          And please don't jump all over me saying if you can't make 11 sales of
          a $7 script you don't belong being a marketer.

          Remember, this person isn't a marketer. They're not teaching you how to
          make umpteen million dollars a year.

          They have a simple script that will help you with an aspect of your
          business.

          These type of products tend to be low profile relatively speaking versus
          the "make a million overnight" stuff. If you think I'm kidding, somebody
          show my a script by somebody other than a long standing member with
          a list the size of Texas that is making a killing at the WSO forum.

          For some markets (and this is just a statement of fact) the WSO forum
          is NOT the best place to promote as it is. And with an increased cost, it
          becomes even less desirable.

          Look, I know what sells. And the folks doing this a while know what sells
          and know how to maximize their return using this forum.

          We're called marketers folks.

          Problem is, not everybody using that forum is a marketer.

          We seem to forget that.

          Just my 2 cents on the subject.
          Signature
          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
          ~ Zig Ziglar
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

            True, some may say that they just want to give back and it isn't about the money.

            But if you're not willing to give back because you risk possibly losing up to $40 (or $77 if you're not yet a War Room member), then I contend that your giving back is about the money.
            Lance, I think you misread what I meant, which is probably my fault.

            Giving back doesn't mean giving away.

            It doesn't mean, run a WSO of your product giving Warriors a great deal
            and coming away with less money than you started out with.

            That's not good business no matter how generous you are.

            My products are so ridiculously underpriced that it's a joke, not just here
            but out in the real world too.

            But I know how to market so I can make up for the low price in
            volume.

            A non marketer can't do that, certainly not in the example I gave above.

            So it's pointless for this person to come here with an offer. He might as
            well just take his $27 script to the outside world and sell it for $27.

            With the amount of marketing smarts he has (or lack thereof) he has
            just as much chance out there that he has in here...maybe even more so
            because he's selling at a higher price.

            Like I said, some things just aren't worth selling here.
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


              Like I said, some things just aren't worth selling here.
              I got ya loud and clear now and I agree.

              I think I was reading too much into your post.
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              • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
                Personally, I don't think having to pay $40 versus $20 is going to make much of a difference in the long run. A month from now (likely much less) things will probably be business as usual, with just as many WSOs and very few people complaining about the cost.

                Sure, it's going to hit some people harder than others, particularly newer people who may not have the copywriting skills or might be offering a service or product that isn't as "sexy". But I'm sure there are people who are hard pressed to come up with the $20 now too.

                I don't like the whole "if you can't make money on a $40 ad you shouldn't be selling that product" attitude though. People have to start somewhere, and not everyone has the marketing chops or a product that will generate attention because of the topic. Having a relatively cheap way to test the waters and learn from their mistakes is a great way to start, even if that start is only to learn what not to do next time.

                I know I learned a ton from my first WSO, and my second one was FAR more successful. If I had been planning to list it today and the price had jumped to $40 when I logged in, I might have thought twice. But if it had been $40 when I started planning it, that wouldn't have made a bit of difference to me.

                I'm sure once the "pain" of the price increase has dulled, most people won't really give it a second thought, other than maybe in a "remember the good old days" kind of way.

                John
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          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            40 bucks is still a really good deal - this coming from the cheap girl. :p


            To those who are all wiggy about the bumping thing - here's the deal.

            There is more than one way to get traffic to your offer - meaning it doesn't have to be on the front page to be effective. Yes, you get more exposure when it is there but it is not the only way.

            There is more than one type of shopper in the WSO's too. 99.9 percent of the time I go in searching for specific terms to find very specific things I really need for my business. This does nothing for those people who are on the front page.

            40 bucks is not a difficult amount of money to find or make. If you could hustle up 20, then you can certainly hustle up double that amount. Just do what ever you did to find the 20 bucks a second time. :p

            Many seem to forget - it is a privilege to be a member, a war room member, and to even be able to post WSO's in the first place.

            Anyway, this may sound harsh to some, but if you can't scrape up 40 to post and the 37 for the war room membership then I very likely won't want your offer as a WSO to begin with. There are other places to get in for cheaper or for free and work your way up to the WSO section.

            Here's an example - let's say you are selling a new method to make me some money. :rolleyes: If you can't use that method yourself to make the money to post the WSO then I don't want to see it.

            Let's say you made a script to help my website make more money. If you didn't use that script yourself to help you make money to post your WSO then I probably don't want it.

            And if you are down to your last 20 dollars and desperate to make some money, you should not be posting in here to get your broke ass out of trouble.

            Now if you are truly having a hardship and awaiting a heart transplant and were hoping to run a WSO to cover the medical bills then I am very sorry for you and hopefully have made some good business contacts and have some friends that will pitch in and help you out. If you have no friends or family then you likely won't be a very good marketer to begin with.

            If you need to post that WSO because it is on your bucket list, there are a bazillion FREE methods given on this very forum that are proven to make you 40 bucks or more.

            Now, I'm going to skip right over 100 for a posting and go to 1k. And this would slow down that front page so drastically that I'd be really gung ho to post an ad. lol
            Signature

            "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by avenuegirl View Post

              If you have no friends or family then you likely won't be a very good marketer to begin with.
              I take it the Fuller Brush man used to visit your house when you were a kid, too...

              ~Bill

              j/k We actually bought stuff from that guy...
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              • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                Think this thread is falling on deaf ears. The decision has already been made and nothing's going to change. The WSO forum will remain the same, the only difference now is it's costing $40 to launch and bump. More money for the forum owner and less money for people already struggling in a sorry economy where jobs are scarce and are looking for opportunities online. Ah well. Moving on...
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

                  Think this thread is falling on deaf ears. The decision has already been made and nothing's going to change. The WSO forum will remain the same, the only difference now is it's costing $40 to launch and bump. More money for the forum owner and less money for people already struggling in a sorry economy where jobs are scarce and are looking for opportunities online. Ah well. Moving on...
                  Why don't you give your products to the struggling people for free?

                  I am sure that will help them out greatly.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Taylor French
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    Why don't you give your products to the people struggling for free?

                    I am sure that will help them out greatly.
                    I don't know about Hanz, but I have been doing that some lately. In a niche market, I have given several free copies of my product out to people who wrote to me saying they really wanted it but couldn't afford it. It's digital. If they can't afford it anyway, it's not going to cost me anything to give it to them.

                    But that is my personal choice. I don't expect everyone to do it, obviously.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    Why don't you give your products to the struggling people for free?

                    I am sure that will help them out greatly.
                    Who says I don't, Tom?
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                    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                      Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

                      Who says I don't, Tom?
                      Most of us do... from time to time at least.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                        Most of us do... from time to time at least.
                        Yeah, willingly or not. Our products end up on other forums...for FREE! LOL!
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                    • Profile picture of the author DaveHughes
                      Someone may have posted this already...I read through the thread and didn't see it, but I probably missed it somewhere; as a result, I apologize in advance.

                      An offer's perceived value is at least partly attributable to its price.

                      Which would you perceive to have more value...a car being advertised in the classifieds of your local paper for sale at $500, or one at $5,000? The $500 car might perfectly suit your needs (and might be all you can afford), but most would automatically assume the $5,000 car was in better condition, etc.

                      If nothing else, the effect of this price increase (to me, anyway) will be to increase the perceived value of a WSO. Will this stop the junk offers? Not necessarily, but I think it will result in those that are serious about becoming marketers viewing a WSO as the opportunity it is, and therefore putting more time and effort into making a quality product.

                      Also, for the folks that say this will hurt the beginning marketer...I don't feel that it will, but I do think it will weed out some of those that aren't going to be successful anyway. I'm sorry, but if you can't figure out a way to make an extra $20 above what you were going to spend to post your first WSO, you might not be cut out for this. Just dabbling on the side, in the last week I have done the following:

                      - Sold an article on Constant Content, for which my "cut" was $18. (The buyer has since contacted me to ask if I would be willing to write at least two a week for that niche, and also asked if I would be willing to write articles on an ongoing basis in another niche.)

                      - Sold three services on Fiverr.com (each one took about two minutes of my time each) for a cut of $8.

                      By my count, that's $26 dollars I've put in my account in the last seven days, doing "fun" side projects. I'm not counting the various money I've made at other endevours...that's side-side money.

                      If anything, this results in the bar being raised a small amount...but not financially. This raises the "determination" and "creativity" bar for those thinking of jumping into the waters.

                      Need an extra $20 to "take action"? Then "take action" before you take the bigger step. The things you learn will only make you more successful in the long run.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                  Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

                  The WSO forum will remain the same, the only difference now is it's costing $40 to launch and bump. More money for the forum owner and less money for people already struggling in a sorry economy where jobs are scarce and are looking for opportunities online.
                  That is probably one of the more galactically clueless statements in this whole thread. But it fits so well with the rest of your posts at least you can be considered consistant.

                  And I don't mean that in a bad way...

                  ~Bill
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                  • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                    Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                    That is probably one of the more galactically clueless statements in this whole thread. But it fits so well with the rest of your posts at least you can be considered consistant.

                    And I don't mean that in a bad way...

                    ~Bill
                    No need to be clever, Bill.
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                • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
                  Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

                  Think this thread is falling on deaf ears. The decision has already been made and nothing's going to change. The WSO forum will remain the same, the only difference now is it's costing $40 to launch and bump. More money for the forum owner and less money for people already struggling in a sorry economy where jobs are scarce and are looking for opportunities online. Ah well. Moving on...

                  I don't buy this argument one bit. One thing about human beings is that we're extremely resourceful. I know of at least two dozen people who started their IM business with nothing but their wits, time, and skills. About half started out with content / article marketing. A couple of them started out with a $75 Adwords credit (not hard to get, just Google it). Many of them offered services by contributing in more than one forum.

                  One of the most successful IMers that I know contacted about a ten marketers who were having seminars and offered himself up as a volunteer when he first got startd. He scrimped and scraped for the gas to get him there and at that seminar he made enough contacts to get started.

                  If the WSO forum did not exist I guarantee you that people would figure out another way and/or vehicle to make it happen. It's not the only place or way to get started in this business.

                  RoD
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                  • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                    Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

                    I don't buy this argument one bit. One thing about human beings is that we're extremely resourceful. I know of at least two dozen people who started their IM business with nothing but their wits, time, and skills. About half started out with content / article marketing. A couple of them started out with a $75 Adwords credit (not hard to get, just Google it). Many of them offered services by contributing in more than one forum.

                    One of the most successful IMers that I know contacted about a ten marketers who were having seminars and offered himself up as a volunteer when he first got startd. He scrimped and scraped for the gas to get him there and at that seminar he made enough contacts to get started.

                    If the WSO forum did not exist I guarantee you that people would figure out another way and/or vehicle to make it happen. It's not the only place or way to get started in this business.

                    RoD
                    I didn't even know the Warrior Forum even existed until fairly recently. It hasn't made a difference to me one way or another but merely just another avenue to post amongst like-minded people and waste even more time. But it's fun. I get to meet really funny people on here like Bill Farnham who's always good for a laugh! It's all worth it!
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimGross
                      Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

                      I didn't even know the Warrior Forum even existed until fairly recently. It hasn't made a difference to me one way or another but merely just another avenue to post amongst like-minded people and waste even more time.
                      Uh... Is that why you currently have three (3) WSO's advertised in your signature at the moment??
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

                        Uh... Is that why you currently have three (3) WSO's advertised in your signature at the moment??
                        Tim, why do you think he is posting mainly BS type posts in this thread. Nothing like getting his sig shown for posts like "I agree", "You should allow people to make money on your forum for free because the economy sucks".
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                        • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                          Tim, why do you think he is posting mainly BS type posts in this thread. Nothing like getting his sig shown for posts like "I agree", "You should allow people to make money on your forum for free because the economy sucks".
                          My apologies Thomas. It wasn't really my intention. Thanks for that.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mario Brown
                            Okay, if you don't like the change and you think you can't deal with it, go ahead and read Who Moved My CheeseWho Moved My Cheese first.

                            Then, try to maximize what you get from your WSO's.

                            Practical tips:

                            1) Write good copy and don't listen to the people that say that hype or scarcity is bad - using these elements is good marketing.

                            If you can't write copy, head over to Clickbank and read the sales letters of some of the most popular products and mimic them, see where they have their sub headlines, where do they have their testimonials, what kind of story do they tell and so forth.

                            Also make sure to check their bonuses and their money back guarantee and what they use to generate scarcity.

                            Most importantly: Go ahead and read the book Influence Influence !!! ..and implement everything that you learn.

                            2) Don't post your WSO's to early, if you bump them in the morning they will be gone within 5 hours. They won't even stay on the top of the main page for 1-2 hours.

                            Bump them later, I like to bump mines around 8pm, that way they stay on the first page till the next day, I get a lot more bang for the money.

                            3) Reviews are now more important than ever !!! Make sure that you ask buyers for reviews, this is a MUST!

                            You need as much social proof as possible, ask within your WSO copy, within your confirmation email and when you follow up!

                            4) Make sure that you have a strong headline, and yes, do use hype!

                            Again, don't listen to people that hype is a bad thing. If you do so, you won't sell a lot of WSO's, and I'm saying this after having had more than 10 WSO's running, 90% of them being successful for me. (generating at list 1,5k on launch day and a lot more over time).

                            Do you want to know which are the ones that didn't sell? You got it, the ones in which I DID NOT use any hype.

                            Think about who you are marketing to, you are marketing to people that are hungry for quick results, they want to see big numbers and chase the dream. If you don't give this to them, you won't sell a lot of WSO's, that's at least my experience.

                            5) Now with the higher price, make sure that you have links within your product that refer to your other products and WSO's. Don't be overly aggressive, but make sure that you mention your other products in case that people want further education.

                            6) Offer an upsell at the point of purchase without being a jerk about it. You can offer e-mail coaching or video tutorials for people that want/need more hand holding.

                            7) Make sure that you follow up with quality emails, ensuring that you build a great relationship with your new customer. When I say quality emails, I mean that you should give them great tips and if possible additional information for free in your first 2-3 emails, before you start recommending something.

                            8) Be different. I everybody is selling ebooks, offer videos. If everybody is offering videos, offer webinars. And so forth. If everybody is using text in their copy, record a video of you and be different.

                            These are just a couple of tips of the top of my head, all based on real experience after launching many successful WSO's.

                            Implement these strategies and you'll make more money with your WSO's, your customers will be happy and they will buy again and again from you.

                            All the best,
                            Mario
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                            ‎"Success is waking up in the morning, whoever you are, however old or young, and bounding out of bed because there's something out there that you love to do, that you believe in, that you're good at -- something that's bigger than you are, and you can't hardly wait to get at it again today." Whit Hobbs

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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Mario Brown View Post


                              1) Write good copy and don't listen to the people that say that hype or scarcity is bad - using these elements is good marketing.

                              4) Make sure that you have a strong headline, and yes, do use hype!

                              Think about who you are marketing to, you are marketing to people that are hungry for quick results, they want to see big numbers and chase the dream. If you don't give this to them, you won't sell a lot of WSO's, that's at least my experience.

                              Implement these strategies and you'll make more money with your WSO's, your customers will be happy and they will buy again and again from you.

                              All the best,
                              Mario
                              Do your customers actually achieve the "big numbers" and if not, are they still happy?
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                              • Profile picture of the author Mario Brown
                                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                Do your customers actually achieve the "big numbers" and if not, are they still happy?
                                That's a very good question and the answer is yes and now.

                                Roughly 95% of the people don't achieve the numbers, or in other words, out of 100 people only five take action, and I'm being very positive here.

                                Example: Over a year ago I launched a WSO about launching WSO's (yep I know) and over the time I made over 700 sales. In the copy I used a video showing my WSO Pro statistics and I used the real numbers, which where impressive in my opinion, in my headline.

                                Out of these 700 buyers I know of exactly 3 that actually took action. I know of other Warriors who implemented some of the tips, but I don't know their numbers.

                                They 3 buyers were proactive and they also asked me for feedback, they implemented everything I told them about and two of them had very successful WSO's, even surpassing my numbers. The other person had a 'okay' WSO, he expected more.

                                So what I'm basically saying is what you already know, most people unfortunately don't actually implement.

                                I have the same problem in the offline niche, one of the biggest problems with my offline clients is actually compliance. I tell them what to do and why to do it, but they're just too 'busy' to actually implement the changes.

                                Go figure.

                                Let me know if you have further questions.

                                All the best,
                                Mario

                                p.s. When I say 'use hype', I don't want people to lie or anything like that, but they should definitely hype up their results and make them sound good, just good marketing.
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                                ‎"Success is waking up in the morning, whoever you are, however old or young, and bounding out of bed because there's something out there that you love to do, that you believe in, that you're good at -- something that's bigger than you are, and you can't hardly wait to get at it again today." Whit Hobbs

                                Visit My Website: http://www.mariobrown.net/

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                      • Profile picture of the author Hanz
                        Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

                        Uh... Is that why you currently have three (3) WSO's advertised in your signature at the moment??
                        LOL! I knew somebody would finally say it. Thanks Tim! What I mean is that even though I do have WSOs running, as one senior member pointed out a month back, the Warrior Forum should not be the be-all/end-all of one's online business or whatever it is they do to make a full-time or part-time income online.
                        Besides, these WSOs I have running are more benefit to the buyer than to myself considering the rights that come with it. It's all about giving!
                        It doesn't even pay for my weekly gas to be honest but it does help reputation which is key for me as I attempt to grow and move on to bigger and better things over time. I didn't truly realize the full potential of the WSO forum until reading and taking note of how people were constructing their sales funnels.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        Anyway, this WSO listing fee increase should serve notice to anyone who has been putting off getting a War Room membership. Someday Allen may come to his senses and raise the membership fee to $97.
        ...or change it to a recurring monthly fee.


        Originally Posted by Lauryn View Post

        If your product is solid, then $40 is nothing.
        That's not necessarily true, Lauryn. Skill in copywriting is more important than product quality when it comes to generating those first sales. Someone can have an absolutely fantastic product and be a really lousy copywriter and not sell a thing.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          ...or change it to a recurring monthly fee.




          That's not necessarily true, Lauryn. Skill in copywriting is more important than product quality when it comes to generating those first sales. Someone can have an absolutely fantastic product and be a really lousy copywriter and not sell a thing.
          Dennis,

          I understand what you're saying, but I think I might not have been clear. For the record, I agree with you there, but I think that's just a matter of someone possibly having to outsource his copy. I am an editor, not the "best editor in the world," but I have worked with a national magazine and I do want to improve my skills. I've seen books with great content that had crap writing, and crap content books with excellent writing.

          For my original post, I need to clarify that "crap" products with "crap" information, whether it's presented with "crap copy writing" and "crap cover" or whether it's "crap information" with "platinum packaging."

          For the prices of many WSOs, they are either low enough to sell enough to make make the $20-$40 investment, or they are priced high enough to pay for the cost of WSO ad in just one purchase.

          As business people, or aspiring business people, $40 should just be factored in as a cost of investment for business marketing and sales. A budget should also include copywriting, editing, peer review, marketing, and other related services to make sure the copy is square.

          At the end of the day, $40 is an investment, whether you make it back or not. You'll either revise the copy or invest in better copy for sales, or you'll make your money back. But to complain about $40 is futile, especially when the people who claim to make $5963.82 per week with this super top secret method that puts Google in a chokehold are obviously supposed to be so wealthy $40 is chump change or when in the long run, it's in response to unhappy WSO purchasers.

          This thread is not going to make the magic WSO price $20 again. It won't even drop to $40. It may make people think twice about posting their products, but hopefully the majority of the "scum" falls off the forum. We know this isn't really going to happen, but this is just another minor adjustment that only affects those who have either a "half-baked" product and can't back up the claims, or those not even willing to risk $40 to see if it can reap a profit, or even just break even.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    This whole situation kind of reminds me of governmental
    intervention in free markets... usually when the government
    (or any other outside force) interferes with the natural price
    of a good being sold, no good comes from it.

    What if (instead of a base cost) the cost of running a WSO
    was relative to the amount of new WSOs being bumped or
    created every day?

    You know... that whole 'supply and demand' thing.

    Technically, I'm sure it's possible to code out some type of
    algorithm that determines pricing. Shouldn't be incredibly hard.

    HOWEVER.

    Aside from my free-market point of view, I'm cool with the
    price increase. Like others have said... if the extra $20 keeps
    you from making a profit, you simply need to take another
    look at how you're running things.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Jesse Kemmerer View Post

      This whole situation kind of reminds me of governmental intervention in free markets... usually when the government (or any other outside force) interferes with the natural price of a good being sold, no good comes from it.
      What "outside force"?

      Are you living in a parallel universe you want to tell us about...

      ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author marklyford
    This will only be good for the WSO forum IMHO
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  • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
    I laugh at the fact that people complain about the obviously piss-poor WSOs that have been sold at $20... and that the moment someone raises a price, there's more moaning and bickering - but no, this time it's because "Allen" is trying to squeeze money out of people.

    ROFLMAO... serious?

    $40 is squeezing? $40 isn't even a meal for two at a casual restaurant. There are plenty of WSOs here for $1997, $2997... more than ten times what that measly $40 means. If your product is solid, then $40 is nothing.

    I agree there should be standards and even a "WSO review team" that can assess products - for a fee - and then allow them to be posted. If you're posting crap, it should be noted that your WSOs are crap anyway.
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    Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.

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    • Profile picture of the author warriorzX
      Originally Posted by Lauryn View Post

      If you're posting crap, it should be noted that your WSOs are crap anyway.
      Absolutely!
      Where is the crap-o-meter? Ebay had this figured out some while ago..:p
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  • Profile picture of the author nossie
    The only thing that will change is more money in the pocket of the forum owners, and some cheap (<$10) or beginner marketer wso's with to low ROI will drop out.

    The bumping of WSO's will not get any slower. For example I'm always waiting for my WSO to land on page4 and I will asap pay for a bump.. Just like 100+ other people with successfull WSO's. This will just continue as it always did. Speed will remain exactly the same.

    This price increase is just a matter of supply and demand. I would do the same thing if I where the owner of warriorforum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
    Banned
    At the end of the day Allen makes the decision and even if he raises the price to $100 one day I will not have an issue. At least we will see quality WSOs Allen's kingdom, he does what he want and we have to respect that.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    I think that eventually, everyone will get used to the $40 and it won't be a big issue as it will be "the norm." As humans, we hate change when it happens, naturally. But we also get used to it. Of course, many people love change, especially when they think they can benefit from change.

    I think a lot of the "oh yes, now the WSO forum will have less junk" comments are those who think the change will benefit them. However, as we all know and several have commented, some of the most BS WSOs you can buy sell hundreds of copies and I don't see those kind of WSOs going by the wayside, as they do well. I have been suckered from time to time buying WSOs that even have great reviews from many members, even respected members, only to read a half-assed, sloppily written, unorganized WSO that leaves out tons of details on how to use the information properly, or just plain was made up and really doesn't work without a lot more no-how.

    With the feel good factor in some WSO threads even after people have bought it, it's as if you're feeding people crap sometimes yet telling them it's a $1000 dish made by the World's Greatest Chef and even after eating it they still believe it's a $1000 dish because the salesman got them to drink the Kool-Aid before eating the crap and they can barely taste anymore.

    It boggles my mind sometimes. Something that could have been whipped up in a couple hours and sells for the price of a hardback book which takes 2 years to write.

    Then there are those WSOs that cost under $10 and are a goldmine of information. And they sell a lot of copies and are really useful.

    So, I think this will deter some would be marketers who want to copy the crap WSOs and get the fast money. I do. But I think those who are already great at it, even if their WSO is junk, will still put them up as $40 will be nothing to them.

    I think it will also deter some newbies who have been told to sell a WSO as a way to make some money, telling something they know. Is that such a bad thing? If they're a complete newbie they can't know much. I think it depends on how you look at it.

    If they go to the services section (which should be back to $20 at some point, if not already) and offer an article writing or graphic design service, etc. then they can still do that for the same price, there. Once they gain some experience and are sure they can get some good sales copy and sell a WSO, then they will only do so once they're sure it's worth the $40.

    Originally, I was against raising the price as some of the WSOs Allen probably doesn't want will still be there unless there's more rigorous barriers put in place. But, at the same time,

    Perhaps, like the original change of getting certain backlinking services out of their, the WSOs slowed down a bit and then the number of WSOs came back in a month, the same will happen and it will the same amount of WSOs, with the same in numbers of quality/junk WSOs in a month? Or will it truly be half the WSOs we have now, and thus they stay in the page longer?

    Only time will tell.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I would think it was more worth it if you didnt have to wait 24 hours between bumps. This will make it take much longer to drop off to the 3rd page. However, it is Allens Decision not ours. There is stil some profit in it Im sure.

    The thing is that a wso does alot of sales in the first two weeks, so its worth every bump... then it drifts off to a few a day... then it drifts off to about 2 or 3 sales every time you bump... sometimes not that depends on the time of day.

    So, if you sell a $20.00 product... its worthwhile to keep bumping for eternity, because everytime you do you make a 20-40.00 profit...

    At $40, it only means that the lifetime of a wso now has a shelf life... for a twenty dollar product it will only be worth promoting for a few weeks before it stops profiting.

    Perhaps thats what allen is doing, keeping it fresh.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    To those who are saying "nothing will change", I'd like to offer a ray of hope. One thing may change...

    People won't take the WSO section for granted as much as they used to.

    Just a thought.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

      I cannot keep up with this thread. I am scared to blink.

      Mukul, don't worry...when it hits 45 pages it'll self destruct.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

      I cannot keep up with this thread. I am scared to blink.
      You need to try the Ludovico technique, my friend. You won't blink...AT ALL!

      ~M~
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  • The Results of Some Informal Tracking

    Will the New Fee Keep WSO's on the Front Page Longer?

    At 4:00 PM EST today I took note of the WSO that occupied the
    top
    position on page one. As of 6:40 PM EST today it was
    exactly halfway
    down the first page. I'll see how long it
    takes to get off the first page
    altogether.

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post


      The Results of Some Informal Tracking

      Will the New Fee Keep WSO's on the Front Page Longer?

      At 4:00 PM EST today I took note of the WSO that occupied the
      top
      position on page one. As of 6:40 PM EST today it was
      exactly halfway
      down the first page. I'll see how long it
      takes to get off the first page
      altogether.

      Steven, the WSO I posted this morning was off of page 1 in about 6
      hours.

      So far, nothing has changed.

      I seriously doubt it will BUT...I am willing to keep an open mind and hope
      for more positives than negatives to come from this.

      That's all any of us can do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      The Results of Some Informal Tracking
      Will the New Fee Keep WSO's on the Front Page Longer?

      At 4:00 PM EST today I took note of the WSO that occupied the
      top position on page one. As of 6:40 PM EST today it was
      exactly halfway down the first page. I'll see how long it
      takes to get off the first page altogether.
      I'm also conducting a test.. same results as you (surprise surprise), half way down the first page after a couple of hours. Things seem to be moving as normal.. at least for the moment.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

        I'm also conducting a test.. same results as you (surprise surprise), half way down the first page after a couple of hours.
        The reason you're seeing this is simple math

        There are essentially 3 kinds of WSO sellers, 2 of them will NOT care about
        the price increase.

        They are...

        1. The established marketer with a great rep who has a great product and
        knows how to market the WSO outside of the forum.

        2. The drive by "make a million overnight" WSOs that the person knows
        will sell like hotcakes so he's not going to blink at the price increase.

        That leaves us with number 3.


        3. The honest newbie who's a little wet behind the ears, might even have
        a great product or service, but is NO marketer and can't write sales copy
        to save his life.

        Number 3, from what I see at the forum, is in the vast minority.

        Thus...no change in how long offers stay on page 1.

        You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

        I'm also conducting a test.. same results as you (surprise surprise), half way down the first page after a couple of hours. Things seem to be moving as normal.. at least at the moment.
        I'm sure Allen is running similar tests. And he stated that one of his goals was to cut the number of WSOs in half in order to increase exposure. So if the amount of time on the first page or two doesn't change, all these tests will tell us is that $40 is not the sweet spot.

        Which means that $20 was way too cheap to begin with (yeah, I know...obvious). Good news for Allen. He'll likely need to more than double his prices in order to cut postings in half. Unintended consequence = more cigar money and less headaches. And I'd bet my last dollar that reducing headaches is worth more to him than the extra cigar money. In the end, he'll probably kick himself for not conducting this experiment earlier.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          I'm sure Allen is running similar tests. And he stated that one of his goals was to cut the number of WSOs in half in order to increase exposure. So if the amount of time on the first page or two doesn't change, all these tests will tell us is that $40 is not the sweet spot.

          Which means that $20 was way too cheap to begin with (yeah, I know...obvious). Good news for Allen. He'll likely need to more than double his prices in order to cut postings in half. Unintended consequence = more cigar money and less headaches. And I'd bet my last dollar that reducing headaches is worth more to him than the extra cigar money. In the end, he'll probably kick himself for not conducting this experiment earlier.
          Lance, those unintended consequences are popping up all over the place.
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