Overhyped Products -The Gurus are failing us Or What Do You Think?

14 years ago

I have not been around long enough to know any of the gurus here at WarriorForums - but I have noticed a huge trend in exaggeration, hype, and fake earnings. Especially in the WSO section. I sincerely doubt the new price increase will fix that either.

Just like anything else in life - take it with a grain of salt. I am lucky to have a finely tuned BS-detector and only gravitate to the genuine hard working honest marketers out there.

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by abednego

I have not been around long enough to know any of the gurus here at WarriorForums - but I have noticed a huge trend in exaggeration, hype, and fake earnings. Especially in the WSO section. I sincerely doubt the new price increase will fix that either.

Just like anything else in life - take it with a grain of salt. I am lucky to have a finely tuned BS-detector and only gravitate to the genuine hard working honest marketers out there.

Glad you have a BS Detector bro! I guess if people stop following hypes and start focusing on real work, Product Creators will sit tight

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C Faber

14 years ago

Here's what you need to understand it's the name of the game. I look back on my past successes and failures as they follow different marketing methods produced by some of the top gurus and I must say there are nuggets that I took with me and implemented in my ultimate business plan.

So although I develop my own business plan after a while does not get stuck with me so who's to say that they did or did not help me achieve my goals.

Think of it this way you go to the gym and work out throughout the course of bodybuilding be too many different methods. But the most important thing you need to do is have consistent effort in adaptation to your plan.

Some the top Internet marketing gurus are salesmen their job is to sell your job is to consume input and effort consistently. Success takes time and although it's easier to blame the grooves for lying to us than to take that responsibility and say that we ourselves are looking for excuse to not put in the consistent effort, we must continue down our path to achieve our successes.

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by C Faber

Here's what you need to understand it's the name of the game. I look back on my past successes and failures as they follow different marketing methods produced by some of the top gurus and I must say there are nuggets that I took with me and implemented in my ultimate business plan.

So although I develop my own business plan after a while does not get stuck with me so who's to say that they did or did not help me achieve my goals.

Think of it this way you go to the gym and work out throughout the course of bodybuilding be too many different methods. But the most important thing you need to do is have consistent effort in adaptation to your plan.

Some the top Internet marketing gurus are salesmen their job is to sell your job is to consume input and effort consistently. Success takes time and although it's easier to blame the grooves for lying to us than to take that responsibility and say that we ourselves are looking for excuse to not put in the consistent effort, we must continue down our path to achieve our successes.

CFaber, I do agree with you, we should learn to have a plan and learn to take works for us and thro away what doesn't, that has always been m,y strategy.

But the truth is if we ignore the present trends and not speak up against it, newbies will suffer seriously and IM will start having a bad "name"

Success, I have always believed is every man's responsibility. You take what life has given you and you make it into what you desire. But when people who we respect and consider "mentors" begin to lead us astray, then I guess it is every man for himself, GOD for us all!

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C Faber

14 years ago

Originally Posted by premiuminvestor

CFaber, I do agree with you, we should learn to have a plan and learn to take works for us and thro away what doesn't, that has always been m,y strategy.

But the truth is if we ignore the present trends and not speak up against it, newbies will suffer seriously and IM will start having a bad "name"

Success, I have always believed is every man's responsibility. You take what life has given you and you make it into what you desire. But when people who we respect and consider "mentors" begin to lead us astray, then I guess it is every man for himself, GOD for us all!

The Internet is the wild wild West of the century and in the wild West crimes and corrected by politicians that talk all day they are corrected by action.

I believe in it's what we do not what we say.

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Hey Jeremy

Just read the post, but you should feel free to share those same thots here bro!

You are so right, there is this new generation of IM Gurus that are just out to line their pockets with cash and have no regards for offering quality info.

What I love most about what I read in your post was your analysis of the "2 face" attitudes of some GURUs

One day, they tell us One medium of money making is a waste of time, 2 weeks later they are telling us it's the next big thing.

Simply no integrity!

Thank God for the likes of you Jeremy[& Don], you always go out of your way to deliver top quality. Keep up the good work...

But we really need to do something about these NEW GREEDY BREED of GURUs

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C Faber

14 years ago

Originally Posted by premiuminvestor

Hey Jeremy

Just read the post, but you should feel free to share those same thots here bro!

You are so right, there is this new generation of IM Gurus that are just out to line their pockets with cash and have no regards for offering quality info.

What I love most about what I read in your post was your analysis of the "2 face" attitudes of some GURUs

One day, they tell us One medium of money making is a waste of time, 2 weeks later they are telling us it's the next big thing.

Simply no integrity!

Thank God for the likes of you Jeremy[& Don], you always go out of your way to deliver top quality. Keep up the good work...

But we really need to do something about these NEW GREEDY BREED of GURUs

Let's not do any of this guru bashing it is completely bad business. Whether you know it or not whether they properly portray it in a sales letter or not, some of the top gurus in the Internet marketing industry has provided great value over the years.

This is not mentioning almost every top marketer offers a 100% money back guarantee.

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GameVoid

14 years ago

We smart folk know that the simple stuff works best, so we don't get lured in by all that fancy talk in those over hyped WSO postings.

However there will always be a horde of hungry easy money seeking people coming to this board and on to the Internet in general who will fall for it every time. As long as there is a demand for the latest shocking method of whatever there will be suppliers.

Times are tough. People need money. The desperate will grasp at whatever they think will help them pay next months mortgage. The unscrupulous will sell them a straw to grasp at all day long. Unfortunately straw is easy to come by.

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Ldimilo

14 years ago

Is it the gurus that fail you or the affiliates of the gurus who fail you? The products would go away if it weren't for the people willing to push the products for a quick buck.

Sure the ad copy for most of these products is over the top but if you really want to place the blame somewhere, I would say that the enablers are just as guilty.

As far as "rehashed" goes, you will reach a point where it all is rehashed. Even Kern's stuff is rehashed....if you read Jay Abraham or Kennedy's books.

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C Faber

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ldimilo

Is it the gurus that fail you or the affiliates of the gurus who fail you? The products would go away if it weren't for the people willing to push the products for a quick buck.

Sure the ad copy for most of these products is over the top but if you really want to place the blame somewhere, I would say that the enablers are just as guilty.

As far as "rehashed" goes, you will reach a point where it all is rehashed. Even Kern's stuff is rehashed....if you read Jay Abraham or Kennedy's books.

Although often times when the products sales letter is overpowered by the affiliates sales copy the affiliates typically are the gurus lol

this is in my experience

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ldimilo

Is it the gurus that fail you or the affiliates of the gurus who fail you? The products would go away if it weren't for the people willing to push the products for a quick buck.

Sure the ad copy for most of these products is over the top but if you really want to place the blame somewhere, I would say that the enablers are just as guilty.

As far as "rehashed" goes, you will reach a point where it all is rehashed. Even Kern's stuff is rehashed....if you read Jay Abraham or Kennedy's books.

You are right Ldimilo, those who are pushing the products are the ones making it more popular.

About rehashed stuff, we all have to agree, that building a car these days is not about reinventing the wheel, making the old one better.

I have no problem with rehashed if it is "refined" and "tweaked" to work better not just same old story in another language ...

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Jay Rhome

14 years ago

I don't usually like the "bash the Gurus" posts and threads... and dislike it even more in all the sales letter of late (you know, how "The Gurus have lied to you so it's not your fault, but I will show you" crap)

But lately, I don't know what's going on, really. A lot of "gurus" I really respected have sent emails promoting as affiliates some really average products with sales pages full of lies and unethical tactics. As some of them have build a lot credibility with me, I didn't unsubscribe from their lists just yet, but that better change soon.

Hype (and effective marketing) is one thing. All out lies and BS is quite another.

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Just want to be clear, I'm not even talking about WSOs ...

I'm actually talking about the so called BIG Guru launches, that every other Guru jumps in for JV purposes without considering the value of the product.

Every time a product is launched, The Big Guys jump on the bandwagon to promote without really checking it out for themselves, promising it is the next big thing and all

then i take a stroll to the product review section of this great forum {God Bless WF} and actual buyers make it clear it is nothing but a rehash or a waste of time with so much upsells and downsells and no value.

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Jacqueline Smith

14 years ago

Just went and read your blog post.....loved it!!!!

Thanks for saying what so many of us feel!

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C Faber 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jacqueline Smith

Just went and read your blog post.....loved it!!!!

Thanks for saying what so many of us feel!

Remember Smith do not forget to quote. It can often times confuse someone new to the thread leading them to believe you're talking to the original post Creator.
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lacraiger

14 years ago

this is like the hundredth thread on this... you don't have to state the obvious anymore...

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Greg Wildermuth

Crank up that BS Radar! The best thing all of us can do (not as marketers but as consumers, human beings etc) is know the sales strategies, and learn to smell it before you step in it!

Yeah Greg,

Operation Crank Up The BS Radar in force! LOL!!!

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mcmahanusa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I can't share my true feelings here...I did just blog about it though:

Affiliate Marketing Products and Launches | Don & Jeremy's

Went to the blog, read it, loved it. You got to the heart of the matter, Jeremy. Of late, when anything is promoted online, my first stop is the WF, to see what's being said about it. If I find nothing there, I let Google do the searching for the truth. The result is these days I rarely purchase any "how-to" or information product or system online. My wife and my banker thank me for that.

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Bluewater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I can't share my true feelings here...I did just blog about it though:

Affiliate Marketing Products and Launches | Don & Jeremy's

Nice blog post, have to agree with much of what you said there.

I had a recent experience that brought it home to me. One marketer was someone I had a lot of respect for the other I didnt (I'd bought a dud product of theirs before) but they partnered up and started pushing a JV together.

I went to a webinar, and one of the partners stressed so much about how this technique with personal 1 on 1 coaching was so powerful that they could only take on a limited number of people in order to provide the very best commitment in 1 on 1 coaching. A very limited number of people, no more than 15-20 for this path to untold riches - and how they would only take on those with the highest promise and utmost motivation.

It was so limited that you had to fill out an application to even be considered with your experience, aspirations, goals and where you felt you were under achieving.

Smelling a rat, I filled out my application with my true experience. A great application if I may say so myself! The next day I received an email almost exactly 24 hrs later (autoresponder?) saying thanks for my application, due to overwhelming numbers I'd have to wait a little longer and they'd let me know asap if I was successful.

When I received that I filled out another application, with a different email addy. I made it as stupid as I could, "Reason why you want to be accepted into this course" answer "I need MONEY!". "Where are you under performing at the moment?" answer "Everywhere, I need MONEY and I need it NOW!!"

Surprise, surprise, 24 hrs later I receive the very same email I recieved for my 1st application.

By this time my first application was 48hrs old, and I received a mail (autoresponder) to say I'd been accepted. Joy of joys! Now I just had to pay my $1997 and I'd be a guru too.

Guess what, the very next day give or take a minute or two from when I submitted my application, my 2nd one had been accepted. Now I just had to pay my $1997 and I'd be a guru too.

There were over 1000 people at that webinar alone, plus replays mailed out, plus whatever other list or online marketing they did, plus affiliates. And both my applications were good enough to be accepted for the 'limited to 15-20 people with the most potential' personal 1 on 1 coaching.

Say what??!!

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Rob Howard

14 years ago

Wow Bluewater...

You know, it wasn't to long ago that I would be somewhat defending the gurus. But in my mind, as Jeremy put it, this group of "New Gurus" isn't a group of gurus at all.

The people I look up too - Jeff Walker, Frank Kern, Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, John Carlton, Tony Robbins, Allen Says, Eben Pagan, Rich Schefron...to name a few.

I'm not on anyone's list really anymore. Besides Frank, Jeff, Rich...maybe a few smaller names.

But this trend is getting disturbing.

But here is the good news...

For every d-bag marketer, for every poor decision, lie, garbage product, gives you every single opportunity to separate yourself from that group and build a mighty following.

When the scum bags define the level of 'normal', you can easily rise above and become the 'go to' guy for a lot of people.

Become incorruptible and people will flock to you to purchase.

So, let them be morons. I'll run my business with highest regards to quality and service and kick their ass all the way to the bank in the end.

Rob

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

Wow Bluewater...

You know, it wasn't to long ago that I would be somewhat defending the gurus. But in my mind, as Jeremy put it, this group of "New Gurus" isn't a group of gurus at all.

The people I look up too - Jeff Walker, Frank Kern, Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, John Carlton, Tony Robbins, Allen Says, Eben Pagan, Rich Schefron...to name a few.

I'm not on anyone's list really anymore. Besides Frank, Jeff, Rich...maybe a few smaller names.

But this trend is getting disturbing.

But here is the good news...

For every d-bag marketer, for every poor decision, lie, garbage product, gives you every single opportunity to separate yourself from that group and build a mighty following.

When the scum bags define the level of 'normal', you can easily rise above and become the 'go to' guy for a lot of people.

Become incorruptible and people will flock to you to purchase.

So, let them be morons. I'll run my business with highest regards to quality and service and kick their ass all the way to the back in the end.

Rob

Well said Rob!!!

You actually have earned the right to make such a declaration, cos all the stuff I've bought for you in the past have been top notch and has helped me tremendously!

Just make sure you keep it up!

Redefining Normal and going the extra length to rise above it, I Like that!!!

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Bluewater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

Wow Bluewater..... (partially edited)

For every d-bag marketer, for every poor decision, lie, garbage product, gives you every single opportunity to separate yourself from that group and build a mighty following.

When the scum bags define the level of 'normal', you can easily rise above and become the 'go to' guy for a lot of people.

Become incorruptible and people will flock to you to purchase.

So, let them be morons. I'll run my business with highest regards to quality and service and kick their ass all the way to the bank in the end.
Rob

Truer words never spoken.

I'm reasonably new to this particular field of marketing, but I've been making money online, principally through the travel niche, since 2002.

I live in Cancun, Mexico and that is the destination I've been selling as an affiliate for a long time. I built my biz through honesty and integrity in a place where those values on the ground rarely exist, and increasingly on the 'net too.

By offering great service, value for money and personal interaction I feel I've built a reputation and have never waivered on my original principles. Long may it continue.

As you say "Become incorruptible and people will flock to you to purchase." It works, I know it from experience.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I can't share my true feelings here...I did just blog about it though:

Affiliate Marketing Products and Launches | Don & Jeremy's

Great post, but I think the OP has missed the point of Guru Marketers...

The syndicate has never really been concerned with "giving us" what we need, but instead "putting money into their own pockets"...

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Lest we forget in our haste to burn "The Syndicate" at the stake, like drug dealers, they're simply responding to the market demand. If there weren't people out there who weren't clamoring for push button, dreams on a silver platter, the unethical practices and unproven products simply wouldn't exist.

The one "guru" that I would suggest has tremendous merit though is Mr. Walker. Regardless of what every other big infoproduct marketer in the bizop niche says or does, they are generally selling via a "launch" - even if it's SEO tactics.

I chuckle at guys like Brunson, who might be selling Dark Side secrets to internet marketing, but he's doing it with a massive list via a launch sequence. Pay attention to what marketers are actually doing, not what they're saying - and you'll learn far more than what you would in a $2K product.

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Black Hat Cat Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Lest we forget in our haste to burn "The Syndicate" at the stake, like drug dealers, they're simply responding to the market demand.

One difference is most drug dealers actually deliver what they're selling. If these guys were responding to market demand, they would deliver on what they say they are selling instead of pulling a bait and switch. No one is demanding that the market rip them off.
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Shaun OReilly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Lest we forget in our haste to burn "The Syndicate" at the stake, like drug dealers, they're simply responding to the market demand. If there weren't people out there who weren't clamoring for push button, dreams on a silver platter, the unethical practices and unproven products simply wouldn't exist.

And that makes it OK?

It comes down to personal choice and responsibility -
by the seller and the buyer.

If all sellers chose NOT to sell the ficticious magic
buttons (that they know don't work) - there would
be none of these useless products for the market.

However, in the real world, the temptation is too
great for sellers that have poor principles.

(Just like no market would exist if drug dealers chose
not to peddle their junk).

The biggest reason that the market exists is because
some sellers are prepared to sell pipe dreams that they
know are a fantasy and will never deliver the results
they promise to their customers.

Sure - gullible buyers need to take a look in the mirror
and examine themselves. No doubt about that.

(Just like drug users need to take responsibility for their
own behavior).

I take responsibility for my products and services and
how I interact with my prospects and customers.

I choose not to sell pipe dreams that will never work.

I'm choose to be part of the solution, not part of the
problem.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." Mahatma Ghandi

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

One difference is most drug dealers actually deliver what they're selling. If these guys were responding to market demand, they would deliver on what they say they are selling instead of pulling a bait and switch. No one is demanding that the market rip them off.

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

And that makes it OK?

It comes down to personal choice and responsibility -
by the seller and the buyer.

If all sellers chose NOT to sell the ficticious magic
buttons (that they know don't work) - there would
be none of these useless products for the market.

However, in the real world, the temptation is too
great for sellers that have poor principles.

(Just like no market would exist if drug dealers chose
not to peddle their junk).

The biggest reason that the market exists is because
some sellers are prepared to sell pipe dreams that they
know are a fantasy and will never deliver the results
they promise to their customers.

Sure - gullible buyers need to take a look in the mirror
and examine themselves. No doubt about that.

(Just like drug users need to take responsibility for their
own behavior).

I take responsibility for my products and services and
how I interact with my prospects and customers.

I choose not to sell pipe dreams that will never work.

I'm choose to be part of the solution, not part of the
problem.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." Mahatma Ghandi

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

One small thing you guys left out that blows the analogy though... 1) narcotics are physically addictive - driving the users to commit other illegal acts to satisfy their cravings for the drug; 2) narcotics are physically harmful, causing all manner of medical problems and death; and 3) because of the first two, narcotics are quite illegal.

COULD someone be successful by implementing ALL of the various internet marketing strategies that are bought and sold? I dunno... maybe... even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Product Launch Formula or Mass Control launch strategies?

Well, I personally have made a lot of money because of Jeff Walker's work, and the cycle of launches in the IM market is proof that this sort of thing works.

Now in all fairness, I didn't pay for the course. I started studying what these guys were doing years ago, and reverse engineered the process pretty quickly. It's not rocket science for someone like me who thinks in Business Process Modeling terms. That's what enterprise sw architects do.

Of course, the missing link is the need for some seed capital to invest in building the lists. But even then, I recall a video Kern put out on his blog a couple years ago where he clearly said "Where do you get a list? You buy the traffic!"

The fact that they're stepping to the plate to fill the void speaks to their marketing ability. It also speaks to the marketing ability of a drug dealer - except for that illegal product thingie.

Training products that teach advertising, marketing, and business systems that may or may not work depending on a million other variables are quite legal.

I think that they are actually delivering what the market actually wants - a pipe dream.

How many internet marketers are going to buy a product that says...

ATTENTION DESPERATE NOVICE INTERNET MARKETERS!!

Through Hard Work, Dedication, Re-investing Profits, And Other Traditional Business Values And Concepts, You Might Be Successful As An Entrepreneur In One Out Of Five Businesses That Are Started.

Price: $1,997

It ain't happenin'.

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Shaun OReilly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

COULD someone be successful by implementing Product Launch Formula or Mass Control launch strategies?

Well, I personally have, and the cycle of launches is proof that this sort of thing works.

Of course.

The question is whether or not the products that are
sold deliver the results that are promised to the buyer.

Most do not - even if the buyer implemented them
exactly as instructed.

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I think that they are actually delivering what the market actually wants - a pipe dream.

The market wants results.

They want to believe in the pipe dream and that they
can make money quickly with no effort.

And there's no shortage of ethically-challenged sellers
who are prepared to sell them the pipe dream - some
at $2k a pop.

Many sellers perpetuate the myth that the pipe dream
is a reality which it's not.

It reminds me of Toto when he pulled back the curtain
to expose the supposed mighty Wizard of Oz:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

And remember...

Frank Kern is one of the hardest working Internet Marketers
in the field. FACT.

He works his rear off and then incongruously appears in
videos laid back - almost horizontal - giving the impression
that he's a slacker who does no work and surfs all day.

That's total BS.

Anyone who's achieved anything significant in any field -
including Internet Marketing - has worked their ass off.

You can't talk right and walk left!

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here because this whole topic is
bugging the crap out of me.

Everybody talks about these overhyped guru products.

Admittedly, I don't buy them so I don't know what everybody is bitching
about.

But...I did get my hands on, a couple of years ago, one of those products
that I'm sure everybody probably said the same thing about...overhyped.

It was Nitro Marketing Blueprint, complete with 1 inch thick book and a
bunch of CDs and DVDs.

Folks...the thing was rock solid. It was EXACTLY what I did to build a
business, starting with niche and keyword research all the way up to
list building and product funnels.

NOTHING was left out.

Are you bitching because the product is crap or are you bitching because
you already THINK you know this stuff?

If you THINK you know this stuff, then why the frick aren't you making
any money?

I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of this bashing of products all the time.

And if you keep buying them and they keep disappointing you...WHOSE
FAULT IS THAT?

I still refer back to Nitro Marketing Blueprint (though not in a while now)
when I think maybe I'm forgetting part of the process that I should be
spending more time on.

Now I haven't seen other big launch products so I can't say. But NMB
was $297 a pop. That, for me, is a lot of money...and I was not at all
disappointed with what I got.

Bottom line is this.

If you think these products are crap, DON'T BUY ANYMORE OF THEM.

Vote NO with your wallet.

Otherwise, you're just adding to the problem.

End of rant.

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Bottom line is this.

If you think these products are crap, DON'T BUY ANYMORE OF THEM.

Vote NO with your wallet.

Otherwise, you're just adding to the problem.

End of rant.

yeah Steve, you are right about that.

We should stay away from the craps and say no with our wallets.

The basic problem that prompted this discussion is not just about those creating the products, it's those promoting it.

Let's say for example, you Steve are someone I highly respect from past products created and all. And you send me a mail cos I'm on your list about a new product that is so great, you are willing to put rep on the line.

Now I will be buying not because the salespage is good but based on your word.

That exactly is the problem, when people we respect get so concerned about following the money train, they leave their integrity and all behind!

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by premiuminvestor

yeah Steve, you are right about that.

We should stay away from the craps and say no with our wallets.

The basic problem that prompted this discussion is not just about those creating the products, it's those promoting it.

Let's say for example, you Steve are someone I highly respect from past products created and all. And you send me a mail cos I'm on your list about a new product that is so great, you are willing to put rep on the line.

Now I will be buying not because the salespage is good but based on your word.

That exactly is the problem, when people we respect get so concerned about following the money train, they leave their integrity and all behind!

That is another problem altogether and why I promote so few products.

In fact, the only big launch I've ever promoted in 7 plus years is Nitro
Marketing Blueprint.

In fact, I'll go as far as to say that anybody who really wants to build
a solid business from the ground up the RIGHT way, don't bother getting
anything of mine. Just go and get Nitro Marketing Blueprint...PERIOD.

As for the marketers who have left their integrity by the curb, same thing.
If they promote a product that really is a load of crap, get off their list.
Don't buy from them anymore.

I review everything I promote, even if it's a 10 page ebook.

If I say it has value, you can bet it has value. And if it's basic info that
seasoned vets will probably know, then I'll state that in my review and
say that it's for newbies.

Please let's not forget that there are new folks out there who NEED this
basic info. And therein lies another problem that I don't even want to get
into in this thread because one man's crap is another man's gold.

But we've beaten that horse to death too.

Just like with drugs, if you just say NO...the problem goes away.

People just don't know how to say NO.

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

That is another problem altogether and why I promote so few products.

In fact, the only big launch I've ever promoted in 7 plus years is Nitro
Marketing Blueprint.

In fact, I'll go as far as to say that anybody who really wants to build
a solid business from the ground up the RIGHT way, don't bother getting
anything of mine. Just go and get Nitro Marketing Blueprint...PERIOD.

As for the marketers who have left their integrity by the curb, same thing.
If they promote a product that really is a load of crap, get off their list.
Don't buy from them anymore.

I review everything I promote, even if it's a 10 page ebook.

If I say it has value, you can bet it has value. And if it's basic info that
seasoned vets will probably know, then I'll state that in my review and
say that it's for newbies.

Please let's not forget that there are new folks out there who NEED this
basic info. And therein lies another problem that I don't even want to get
into in this thread because one man's crap is another man's gold.

But we've beaten that horse to death too.

Just like with drugs, if you just say NO...the problem goes away.

People just don't know how to say NO.

Thanks Steve for your points,

I deliberately started this thread not because I've been burnt by some so called "Gurus" but because I wanted newbies to be able to discover early enough that not all that is promoted is exactly as it is.

I also wanted to hammer home the fact that we marketers need to take responsibility for what we market, we shouldn't be so driven by money making anyway possible that we leave our integrity at the curb.

I guess the bottomline is

- If any respected Marketer recommends trash, unsubscribe from his list, if you have the time, give him an earful about how disappointed you are or something

- If you buy something that is not as presented, don't hesitate to ask for refunds, whoever created will think twice about quality and integrity next time

- If anything looks too good to be true, do your due diligence to get real buyer reviews from places like warrior forum, before taking the bait

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seoweb2000 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

But we've beaten that horse to death too.

Just like with drugs, if you just say NO...the problem goes away.

People just don't know how to say NO.

Steven, I feel the same way you do.
It sickens me to see all of the hyped and plain out lies that is occurring in our industry, but you are right that it is new amazing info for some.
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Mark-Dickenson

14 years ago

You are a little out of touch with reality here

Have you seen the crap that gets launched every day and the sleazy, extremely unethical marketing tactics that are behind them?

I take it you are not on any of these lists...the problem is, that newbies who don't know any better are

For example, there was a launch a few months ago that the gentleman was showing a YouTube technique he claims he just discovered that was making him hand over fist

Then, he goes on to show his proof of earnings from his Clickbank acct a from few months ago

Problem was, he said he JUST discovered that technique, and I know for a fact those Clickbank earnings were from his previous launch, not his Youtube Technique

Thats just one example and I could write a novel about the crap I see every day

So yes, we do need to bitch because it is the only way we can help those who are new and may not know any better

And if my bitching upsets you but saves just 1 person their hard earned money, it will be well worth it

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here because this whole topic is
bugging the crap out of me.

Everybody talks about these overhyped guru products.

Admittedly, I don't buy them so I don't know what everybody is bitching
about.

But...I did get my hands on, a couple of years ago, one of those products
that I'm sure everybody probably said the same thing about...overhyped.

It was Nitro Marketing Blueprint, complete with 1 inch thick book and a
bunch of CDs and DVDs.

Folks...the thing was rock solid. It was EXACTLY what I did to build a
business, starting with niche and keyword research all the way up to
list building and product funnels.

NOTHING was left out.

Are you bitching because the product is crap or are you bitching because
you already THINK you know this stuff?

If you THINK you know this stuff, then why the frick aren't you making
any money?

I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of this bashing of products all the time.

And if you keep buying them and they keep disappointing you...WHOSE
FAULT IS THAT?

I still refer back to Nitro Marketing Blueprint (though not in a while now)
when I think maybe I'm forgetting part of the process that I should be
spending more time on.

Now I haven't seen other big launch products so I can't say. But NMB
was $297 a pop. That, for me, is a lot of money...and I was not at all
disappointed with what I got.

Bottom line is this.

If you think these products are crap, DON'T BUY ANYMORE OF THEM.

Vote NO with your wallet.

Otherwise, you're just adding to the problem.

End of rant.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

Of course.

The question is whether or not the products that are
sold deliver the results that are promised to the buyer.

Most do not - even if the buyer implemented them
exactly as instructed.

...

I don't see how it's possible to accurately gauge that sort of thing.

There's a million other variables involved that also factor into the success or failure.

Even though it doesn't happen very often, I've actually seen a boarded up McDonald's store.

So what was the story? Traffic patterns change? Franchisee get a little crazy in Vegas with hookers and blow?

If you're looking for a GUARANTEE OF SUCCESS in ANY business venture, then you're better off getting a .gov job (although with the kinds of layoffs I'm seeing there, that's not the panacea it used to be either).

Seriously though, a $1,000,000 franchise startup isn't a guarantee of success, complete with support from a billion dollar corporate parent and 600 page legal contracts full of disclaimers and nowherefores. So how can someone expect more from a $37 ebook, or a $1997 class?

If Warren Buffett himself decided in his philanthropic twilight (let's face it, he doesn't need the income) to teach a handful of people his exact methods of investing, straight from the ninja master himself, would you be willing to pay $10,000? I would. Would you be willing to pay $100,000? I might depending on how much direct Q&A time I got over a certain period.

Should I expect a guarantee of success for that kind of money?

Even if a seasoned business guy with a high net worth does everything right, they still fail... often. I do. Nobody ever hears about the string of crazy deals gone south. I've got my own bone yard. We all do.

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Keith Boisvert 14 years ago

Getting kind of scary that Steve and I are thinking along the same terms, but again, I must agree with Steve here.

I mean come on, this stuff is not rocket science, and there are only so many strategies, tips, tricks and things one can implement in IM.

Every single product is a take off of something that is already out there with the authors own unique twist.

Is it over-hyped? Probably, but we at marketers should already know that. People keep buying so people will keep producing. It's that simple. If there is no demand the products will diminish.

Pick a damn formula for YOU, work it, perfect it, learn, implement and keep doing it until you are making $$. If it doesn't work, move on. Pretty damn simple.

But to sit here and waste time bashing or complaining about "guru's" or over-hyped products...to me, is a waste of time.

There are plenty of great marketers out there that ARE ethical, helpful and are genuine about wanting to help. There are plenty of free or cheap products out there that kick ass that can help you earn to your potential. ****, this forum alone can and has launched successful careers.

Stop buying, stop whining, read the forum, focus, and then go do some work. Simple.

I'm not trying to be a jerk(although it tends to come naturally), but really, this has been beaten to death for years. If a product sucks or is over-hyped and doesn't live up to your expectations....get a friggin refund and move on.

We are ALL marketers, and some of us are ethical and try to provide kick ass content, while others are just after a quick buck. It's a fact of life. Live and learn.

~keith
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Shaun OReilly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Should I expect a guarantee of success for that kind of money?

No product can guarantee success - even in the hands
of a capable and dedicated person.

You're right - there are many variables involved.

However, many of the pipe dream products are guaranteed
to result in failure because they're based on an incorrect
paradigm (earn gazillions with no effort).

My measure of a good product is one that provides information
that if diligently applied gives you at least a decent probability
of improving your results rather than no chance at all.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

My measure of a good product is one that provides information
that if diligently applied gives you at least a decent probability
of improving your results rather than no chance at all.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

Shaun, therein lies the crux of the problem.

I can almost guarantee you that if I asked anybody here to send me a
product that they thought was overhyped crap, and I went through it, I'd
find something in it that IF applied, would make me money from it.

I absolutely refuse to believe that somebody with any kind of a reputation
who wants to keep it, would release a 2K product or whatever the price
was, that had absolutely NO value and no way to generate anything from
it.

And again, a lot of people bitch and complain NOT because the stuff in
the product doesn't have value, but because they KNOW IT ALL ALREADY.

Well, if you think you're at that point where you know all this stuff, and
every guru launch is giving you more of the same, maybe that should tell
you something that there's no magic bullet out there that's going to let
you sack out at the beach drinking pina coladas.

But these people keep buying product after product hoping for some
miracle.

When did God come down to earth and say, "Hey folks, you can get rich
by just pushing a button?"

If he did, I missed it.

I got to where I am by busting my ass and no miracle product got me
there by allowing me to push a button.

In fact, I can name, on one hand, the products I've purchased in 7 plus
years that have REALLY made a difference in my life, not counting NMB
because that was after I was already successful.

"Insider's Guide To Profits Online" (out of print)
"Secrets Of The Big Dogs" (a book most people laugh at)
"The Original Rich Jerk" (had some cutting edge stuff at the time)

And THAT'S IT!

Now, I've gotten some specialty stuff on copywriting, testing and tracking
and a few other odds and ends that have helped me. But as far as
general marketing books, these are the only 3 that have made any real
difference in my life, and Rich Jerk, marginally.

Learn the basics and there's not much else.

At least I haven't found it.

I asked a friend of mine who got Traffic Secrets 2 if it was good. He
said it was good but it was still basic stuff and not anything ground
breaking.

So I wonder how many people were disappointed with that product
because it didn't include the wonder wheel with it?

So again, whose fault is if John Doe buys 10 guru mega courses and each
one disappoints him?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Fool me 10 times and I f*****g need to have my head examined.

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Keith Boisvert

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Shaun, therein lies the crux of the problem.

I can almost guarantee you that if I asked anybody here to send me a
product that they thought was overhyped crap, and I went through it, I'd
find something in it that IF applied, would make me money from it.

I absolutely refuse to believe that somebody with any kind of a reputation
who wants to keep it, would release a 2K product or whatever the price
was, that had absolutely NO value and no way to generate anything from
it.

Pretty much sums it up in two paragraphs. Perfect!! Wish I wrote it

.

~keith

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Shaun OReilly 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I got to where I am by busting my ass and no miracle product got me
there by allowing me to push a button.

Me too and anyone else who has experienced success
online.

That's the cold, hard truth of it...

Bust your ass, make some money.

And yet there's a queue of buyers hoping to believe the
pipe dream "easy button" fallacy and no shortage of sellers
willing to sell them the fantasy.

That's the conflict.

Cold hard reality versus pipe dream fantasy.

There are some great products. There are some complete
horsesh!t products and a swathe of qualities in between.

A few years back I was drinking the Kool-Aid and thought
that the launch products were the solution. They weren't.

The solution was developing a focus, creating a plan and
then putting the solid fundamentals into practice every day.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun
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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

And that makes it OK?

It comes down to personal choice and responsibility -
by the seller and the buyer.

If all sellers chose NOT to sell the ficticious magic
buttons (that they know don't work) - there would
be none of these useless products for the market.

However, in the real world, the temptation is too
great for sellers that have poor principles.

(Just like no market would exist if drug dealers chose
not to peddle their junk).

The biggest reason that the market exists is because
some sellers are prepared to sell pipe dreams that they
know are a fantasy and will never deliver the results
they promise to their customers.

Sure - gullible buyers need to take a look in the mirror
and examine themselves. No doubt about that.

(Just like drug users need to take responsibility for their
own behavior).

I take responsibility for my products and services and
how I interact with my prospects and customers.

I choose not to sell pipe dreams that will never work.

I'm choose to be part of the solution, not part of the
problem.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." Mahatma Ghandi

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

Well said Shaun, I do believe we all need to take responsibility for our actions.

Sellers should take responsibility by making sure their products actually perform as they claim

Promoters/Marketers should also take responsibility, to make sure what they are promoting is actually worth it

Buyers should take responsibility by not expecting to do nothing but getting to work and making the best of what they are presented with.

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MilesT

14 years ago

I think part of the problem is that the definition of "guru" has been redefined as anyone who can afford an expensive launch. Which as we are all learning, is not the case.

From Wikipedia ...

A guru (Sanskrit: गुरु) is one who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others (teacher). As a principle for the development of consciousness it leads the creation from unreality to reality, from the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge.

IF we apply that definition to those in the field then the list crystallizes itself and the taint is taken off of "guru" and only applied to those who are less than credible.

When I think of gurus in our field I think of people with great integrity. Eben Pagan, Clayton Makepeace, John Carlton. And when you think of those names it makes sense, they are mentors, teachers in profession and life. We wait on their words and we trust them with our businesses.

So, when we speak of a "guru" let's not share that space with those this thread was intended for, because they are two, completely different people.

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Shaun OReilly 14 years ago

The word Guru comes from Sanskrit and means light giver
or dispeller of darkness.

By that definition, most people quoted as being the top
Internet gurus are not real gurus at all.

Why?

They don't dispell any darkness.

They keep people in the dark.

(They misguide their customers by using the Mushroom
Principle: Keep people in the dark and through a lot
of sh!t at them).

They continue to perpetuate myths and keep people
focused on buying the next shiny $2k launch product
that's supposedly 'new' instead of getting people to
do what really matters...

Focus on DOING the fundamentals of Internet Marketing.

(You know, like the stuff they're actually doing themselves
like good old list building etc).

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun
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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MilesT

I think part of the problem is that the definition of "guru" has been redefined as anyone who can afford an expensive launch. Which as we are all learning, is not the case.

From Wikipedia ...

A guru (Sanskrit: गुरु) is one who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others (teacher). As a principle for the development of consciousness it leads the creation from unreality to reality, from the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge.

IF we apply that definition to those in the field then the list crystallizes itself and the taint is taken off of "guru" and only applied to those who are less than credible.

When I think of gurus in our field I think of people with great integrity. Eben Pagan, Clayton Makepeace, John Carlton. And when you think of those names it makes sense, they are mentors, teachers in profession and life. We wait on their words and we trust them with our businesses.

So, when we speak of a "guru" let's not share that space with those this thread was intended for, because they are two, completely different people.

Thanks for the definition. I deliberately used the term loosely, so that we can actually redefine those we call "GURUS" and look up to. And separate treasure from trash!

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Dave WCITM

14 years ago

The only problem which I have with many of the so called 'gurus and experts' is that they come out promising miracles or guaranteed silver bullets which if you use them you will make a killing on the net without doing much else.

The truth is that no matter how good a product or the information is, it is your willingness to internalize it and then convert it from information into knowledge which will make all of the difference.

There is no such thing as overnight success and it is your ability to apply the knowledge and skill sets which you have which leads to success. Overall people do like to blame others for their own inability to do something correctly and the gurus are always a good target for this.

The gurus who are in fact adding value and supplying information which can be converted into knowledge are great and very helpful, but those misleading people and unscrupulously taking their money are the ones we need to watch out for.

Well, this is my opinion anyway, there is a lot of valuable information out there, it depends on whether you approach it with an opportunity seeking mindset or that of a Wealth Creator which makes all of the difference.

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ryanman

14 years ago

I seriously don't get the point here...Or maybe I am the only one who thinks this way. But did any hot shot big guru...Strangle you by the neck...Put a gun to your head & took your money?

I am guessing not!

So what is the big deal here? If someone is offering crap...And you did buy into the hype by mistake...Hey! Just get a refund. It's that simple. What's the point of talking about it over and over?

If mc donalds has started selling crappy burgers...Just stop buying from them. It's not that hard is it now?

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premiuminvestor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ryanman

I seriously don't get the point here...Or maybe I am the only one who thinks this way. But did any hot shot big guru...Strangle you by the neck...Put a gun to your head & took your money?

I am guessing not!

So what is the big deal here? If someone is offering crap...And you did buy into the hype by mistake...Hey! Just get a refund. It's that simple. What's the point of talking about it over and over?

If mc donalds has started selling crappy burgers...Just stop buying from them. It's not that hard is it now?

Yeah ryanman, that gun to your head argument again. LOL!!!

Of course we are not saying we are being "forced" to buy but the problem I guess arises when people who have proven to be good at their word in the past, recommend products that are not so good.

How many refunds do one ask for before one is seen as a serial refunder? LOL!!!

I do get your point bro! Like steve said we need to say no with our wallets!

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salegurus

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I can't share my true feelings here...I did just blog about it though:

Affiliate Marketing Products and Launches | Don & Jeremy's

Excellent blog post Jeremy, pity you can't post something so brutally honest on WF :rolleyes:

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Kim Standerline

14 years ago

Fab blog post Jeremy, I can't believe I wasn't on your newsletter list lol

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I can't share my true feelings here...I did just blog about it though:

Affiliate Marketing Products and Launches | Don & Jeremy's

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John Durham

14 years ago

Sorry but this is the most ridiculous thread title I have ever read...

Quit Being Co Dependent!

= Blame Energy
Minus - personal responsibility = being miserable and failing.

Better to have a business idea, and take from this place little things here and there that can help you with Y-O-U-R programs... YOUR plan!!!

Save yourself a couple of years and take that advice. Then you will be grateful for every nugget that comes your way... instead blaming because people didnt give you enough....

Dont count on guru's , count on SELF.... and thank God for any guidance that comes your way!

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TheMagicShow

14 years ago

Originally Posted by premiuminvestor

Recent happenings in the IM industry seem to be pointing to one fact, the so called "Gurus" are failing us.

Overhyped products, rehashed stuff with little meat, empty promises, outright lies and all.

I used to have alot of respect for a lot of them but these days, most of them seem to be more concerned in lining their pockets by any means possible than having a sound business INTEGRITY.

Or am I missing something? Please share your experiences, opinions and what nots ...

Hype will always sell, whether the product is crap or not. if you feel mislead by certain products and creators, then simply don't buy. No one, forces anyone to buy anything. Hell all of the info, is found here on the WF!

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Spot the Ball

14 years ago

There's going to be some products that offer real value if you dont know anything about the type of marketing you are planning on heading into then buying one or two of these is all you really need.

Anything after this for the most part isnt needed, its all rehashed with a new coat.

Following the basics should see some suscess and if you need something specific after this, its not hard to find for free in forums.

Im not going to get into bashing, I realised this doesnt do any good anymore, infact it just gets me really annoyed seeing some of the stuff being put out and makes me angry, not for myself but for others who think they need more than whats offered in any good course.

keep it simple, it really does'nt need to be any more than this.

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billnad

14 years ago

The Gurus are doing there job. They see a market, they create a product, they market the hell out of it and then they move on. I think the $2,000 and over products are way out of my league and instead I find much better value finding the cool reports and strategies in the the WSO area here instead. The guru systems seem to go from no knowledge right to the end and are usually products for newbies to a subject to take them to superstar status.

Got to wonder though how many people are going to buy a product and then commit to it for a year to see the results. I bet most people just bail after a month (doesn't work, too much work, new shiny thing) and they really miss out on the investment that they make in money and time

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Istvan Horvath

14 years ago

The Gurus are failing us Or What Do You Think?

I think you should stop using the royal we.
Talk about yourself only! I don't want to be in the same general - imaginary - group that you created by using the pronoun "we/us". I have never expected anything from any gooroo... so they didn't "fail" me.

There are millions of (real!) businesses built around the world by hard working individuals who never rely on any "gurus".

Nobody is forcing you to buy anything - so don't buy them. It is that simple.

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mrizos

14 years ago

The real "gurus" aren't selling products to us.

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Lance K 14 years ago

You want to know what's most likely failing you if you're to the point where hype disturbs and/or infuriates you?

You're at (actually past) a point where you should be thinking/acting as a seller and you're still thinking/acting as a buyer.
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Overhyped Products -The Gurus are failing us Or What Do You Think?

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